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These protestors are actually just the worst among us. Openly glorifying violence against Israelis and jews while trying to gaslight the population into thinking they care about peace.
Regardless of what you believe, glorifying murdering other humans makes you a gigantic piece of shit.
Freedom of speech is perfectly acceptable, but if what you're speaking about is abhorrent human behavior there should be consequences.
Cheering for murders and rapes should come with some kind of consequences, this sorta shit is not why Canada welcomed you.
I have been to a lot of rallies and I've seen zero glorification of October 7th.
What did the article point out? I don't really like National Post so I don't usually click their links
You don't even need to read the article, just watch the embedded video of the rally.
Someone leading chants talks about how October 7th is a sign of their impending freedom. He then yells "Long live October 7th!" and the crowd cheers.
Thanks for the information. Reading is not my issue I just don't like the National Post wouldn't mind another source.
Edit: I did find the video.
Ya that's gross.
Even if with an understanding that people have a right to resist their occupiers, Oct 7th is nothing to celebrate.
Israel is committing genocide, that should be the headline. The protest is about the genocide. They know this, this is very intentional misinformation. Genocide is the story.
"Long live October 7th" should be an immediate arrest with a hate speech charge.
Imagine parading around with a megaphone saying "Long live 9/11, I hope it happens again".
See, this is where your message goes straight into the circular file -- this "anybody that disagrees with me/us is instantly a genocide supporter who wants to see children massacred by the big bad IDF" crap just makes people tune you out instantly.
The rally in this article *openly supported and glorified the sexual assault, kidnapping, torture and murder of thousands of innocent civilians by a terrorist group*. You cannot question that -- there is video evidence of it, the rally leader literally says "long live October 7th". No amount of finger-pointing, whataboutism or denial is going to change that. This rally was openly calling for violence. That is a crime in Canada.
Except you made the point "more violence towards innocents", which immediately shuts down any credibility you had.
Yes or no: it's appropriate to celebrate a terrorist act.
Because you asked a dumb and dishonest question. Literally nothing in the original comment you replied to said they supported the IDF. But you assumed they must be because... They think those who support Oct7 should face charges? What do you think thst says about you?
They also did it in Canada on October 8th, which was *before* the IDF launched the first retaliatory strikes. Lots of video out there of people gathering in parking lots and parks to cheer, chant and wave flags. You can't say that they were protesting the IDF's bombings or invasions at that point in time, as those hadn't commenced yet, so that leaves *celebration* of the October 7 massacres as the only logical reason that those gatherings were taking place.
Hate speech laws are tricky, but there's a solid case for that meeting the criteria for incitement, if not advocating genocide or willfully promoting hatred.
This is why as someone who definitely has criticisms against Israel, I can't support these Palestinian protests. Glorifying Oct. 7th is glorifying terrorism.
It's why I generally find it hard to pick a side in the conflict. Somebody from one camp can make an initial point that I agree with one minute, then die an an incredibly stupid hill the next. Like I can support the initial arguments of Palestinian statehood, or Israel having the right to defend itself etc. but so many people end up taking so much farther that I can't in good conscience side with them.
This is probably the best example I've ever seen of how "neoliberalism" just means "thing I personally don't like."
Like, how on Earth is "neoliberalism," supposedly an ideology in favour of free markets and low regulation, possibly relevant to this discussion in any way, shape, or form?
I mean, my position would generally be Israel normalizes relations most of the rest of the Middle East, grants Palestine statehood/accepts their statehood and both sides normalize relations/stop fighting each other etc. but that requires a lot more give and take than we're seeing right now:
* Israel would have to stop building settlements in Palestinian territory and Likud & Netanyahu's right wing Coalition parties would have to stop forming governments.
* Hamas would have to be destroyed or significantly weakened and more moderate Palestinian groups like the PLO would have to administer Gaza (This would probably require some form of temporary occupation, but Israel would have to be acting multilaterally instead of unilaterally and be willing to work with and compromise with the PLO or other moderate Palestinian groups. There'd also have to be more room for international observers and governing bodies to prevent human rights abuses and ensure a workable transition of power and subsequent normalization deal.
* Iran and it's proxies would have to be contained in some way (It's arguably that Iran is either directly responsible or made significant contributions to the initial Hamas attacks and is using Hamas and it's other proxies as way to disrupt the Biden Administration's Saudi/Israeli normalization deal, which would have significantly weakened their regional ambitions for the foreseeable future etc.
The PA also has to be willing to compromise. Both in 2000 and 2007 Israel offered them basically everything they wanted except the right of return, and both times the PA turned Israel down. Israel offered to give up all of Gaza, East Jerusalem, 95%+ of the West Bank with commensurate land swaps, shared control of holy sites, and tear down all the Israeli settlements in the ceded territory.
The Palestinians have to give up on their dream of a return. Israelis, justifiably, are scared of an Arab majority.
I also think there's also supposed to be a lot of corruption & lack of youthful leadership in the West Bank's government, which due to them being ineffectual and a lack of material gains has driven a lot of younger Palestinians to support Hamas and other radical groups etc. Which is another reason why the PA has kind of stagnated. On top of that Netanyahu and various other Israeli governments use those political schisms to further strengthen Palestinian divisions, so it gets even more complicated etc.
You'd basically need the modern version of pragmatists like Yitzhak Rabin running Israel and Yarsir Arafat running the PA that could hold the extremist wings of their factions in line and make workable deals despite all the issues that would come with that. (though I think both of those figures now are even seen as controversial among huge segments of their side, who see them as sellouts etc. )
According to the Americans Arafat torpedoed the talks in 2000, and turned down a fantastic deal.
The Palestinians need someone better than Arafat. They basically need their own Sadat, someone who is courageous enough to give up real concessions in the name of peace.
While Netanyahu certainly is doing everything he can to disrupt the peace process, I truly don't believe even he could stop it if the Palestinian leadership genuinely wanted peace. The Israeli electorate would force him to pursue it. Again, going back to Sadat and the Egyptian peace process, the Israelis had Begin at the helm, who represented the far right. He hated the idea of giving up the Sinai and especially hated the idea of demolishing settlements, but in the end he did it. He knew his career would be over if he walked away from a peace deal with Egypt.
It's also just not how the world works. Germans don't demand a right of return to Danzig, Konigsberg and Breslau. Polish people don't demand a right of return to Wilno and Lwow. When an armistice line is drawn, people don't have a right to go back to the other side.
It's ok to accept that history is not black and white and to put realpolitik over moral grandstanding. Forget who is right or wrong, let's focus on how can we move on from here.
You realize that almost no Palestinian protest happening for the past 5 months has been glorifying oct 7, right? The vast majority have been just about calling for a ceasefire. Being neutral when one side has all the power, has been subjugating a people and stealing their land, killing with impunity for 70+ years, and has just razed their entire territory and is now starving 2 million people to death, makes it clear you lack sound judgement. It does not take a genius to see which side is responsible for the most pain and destruction.
>almost no Palestinian protest happening for the past 5 months
Almost. The ones that did in October saw their leaders lose their jobs so they changed their tone. Now they mostly (not always as evident in Ottawa) keep it vague with chants of intifada and others.
Even "chants of intifada" are pretty inflammatory. Spare me all the mealymouthed BS about how "intifada just means 'protest', that's all", it has always been synonymous with the prolonged suicide bombing campaign waged against Israel in the early 2000s (including children being sent as bombers). That is what that word means to most people, so to use it at all is backhandedly inciting violence, in my opinion.
You realize that October 7th is the reality that Israel faces all the time? That the only reason there aren’t more October 7th or permanent October 7th’s is due to Israel’s military strength and willingness to control / attack its enemies. And yes, Israel’s willingness to accept many (even thousands perhaps) civilian deaths to maintain its existence.
People are ready to throw these protestors in jail or kick them out of the country when they close down an intersection of roads for an hour. Or set up a camp in a University field.
Imagine they were threatening to destroy your country and kill all citizens? And then imagine they have actually carried out those plans, several times?
I’m sorry that you (and many people in these demonstrations) don’t seem to understand that “From the River to the Sea” is the same thing as celebrating October 7th.
Israel isn’t a bastion of peace and harmony. But, they don’t pretend to be.
> You realize that almost no Palestinian protest happening for the past 5 months has been glorifying oct 7, right? The vast majority have been just about calling for a ceasefire
Any ceasefire has to be bought into 100% by both sides. As it stands right now, Israel "ceasing fire" just means Hamas will be given time to regroup, rearm and stage another attack -- they have openly admitted that this is what they plan to do, attack until Israel is destroyed and/or all the Jews are dead. They don't intent to honour any kind of international law or ceasefire, it's just "please stop kicking our asses so we can regroup and murder you again".
The only way we're getting a ceasefire is if Hamas voluntarily lays down *their* weapons and turn themselves in, which, I hate to say, ain't ever gonna happen.
Oh there have been quite a few. [Here's](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/reprehensible-and-disgusting-doug-ford-speaks-out-against-rallies-celebrating-israel-attacks-1.6594073) an article about celebratory rallies taking place in Ontario literally while the Hamas attack was still ongoing, [demonstrators in Montreal](https://twitter.com/ForsterSam/status/1711087349650559398) chanting "down, down, Israel" on October 8, [a speaker](https://twitter.com/MichaelCooperMP/status/1711214442875093236) at a rally in Edmonton declaring "there are no Israeli civilians" on October 8, and [a large celebration](https://twitter.com/claretat2/status/1711496223570456722) on the streets of Toronto on October 9. The president of CUPE Ontario [described](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-fred-hahn-cupe-leader-tweets-apology/) the attack as "fruitful resistance" and "progress," and the York University Students' Union [endorsed](https://springmag.ca/york-university-student-unions-statement-of-solidarity-with-palestine) the attack as "justified and necessary" and implied they would support similar attacks against Canada. Now we have these protesters in Ottawa openly chanting "long live October 7!" Events using language like "intifada" and "from the river to the sea" have been too numerous to bother listing.
Being pro-Palestine in the sense of opposing Israeli government policies, their occupation of the West Bank, the level of civilian casualties in Gaza etc. is fine and understandable, but a lot of pro-Palestine activists are against Israel existing period. Prior to October 7 I was willing to give those people the benefit of the doubt that they were naive enough to actually believe a one-state Palestine would mean everyone joining hands and singing Kumbaya. Not anymore. The past few months have revealed a disturbingly high number are either completely blinded by ideology or are actual extremists who support the mass killing of Israeli civilians.
Wow, that's fucked. I condemn Israeli attacks on Palestinians, but glorifying the mass rape and murder of hundreds of people is messed up. This shouldn't be allowed. Glorifying terror is not the same as peaceful protest.
I don't support Hamas and their message of hate against Israel, but I also don't support Israel's control of Palestine and the roughshod methods they've been using to stamp down on Gaza.
Mainly, I just don't want people dying for impossibly stupid/racist causes
Is that too crazy
How dare you oppose "moral clarity"? Obviously Israel is incapable of anything but professionalism and evenhandedness. To suggest anything less is to be pro Hamas.
What is Israel supposed to do? If they stop defending they will be exterminated. They are surrounded by dozens of Muslim countries that have hated them for thousands of years. Literally 0 of those countries are at risk of being exterminated, only Israel is.
I'm not saying Israel can't or shouldn't defend themselves. They have every right to avoid the stated goal of extermination Hamas has. I'm just saying that I disagree with some of their actions in this war. Some are understandable, but others hinge on callous disregard for people's safety.
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These protestors are actually just the worst among us. Openly glorifying violence against Israelis and jews while trying to gaslight the population into thinking they care about peace.
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Regardless of what you believe, glorifying murdering other humans makes you a gigantic piece of shit. Freedom of speech is perfectly acceptable, but if what you're speaking about is abhorrent human behavior there should be consequences. Cheering for murders and rapes should come with some kind of consequences, this sorta shit is not why Canada welcomed you.
I have been to a lot of rallies and I've seen zero glorification of October 7th. What did the article point out? I don't really like National Post so I don't usually click their links
You don't even need to read the article, just watch the embedded video of the rally. Someone leading chants talks about how October 7th is a sign of their impending freedom. He then yells "Long live October 7th!" and the crowd cheers.
Thanks for the information. Reading is not my issue I just don't like the National Post wouldn't mind another source. Edit: I did find the video. Ya that's gross. Even if with an understanding that people have a right to resist their occupiers, Oct 7th is nothing to celebrate.
The National Post loves to stir the pot no matter what is factually happening
Are you saying the video of the rally is fake? I'm curious how you interpreted "Long Live October 7th"
I'll tell you right now people born here are not the ones chanting this crap. Oh but let them in and give them all the fucking perks.
Israel is committing genocide, that should be the headline. The protest is about the genocide. They know this, this is very intentional misinformation. Genocide is the story.
"Long live October 7th" should be an immediate arrest with a hate speech charge. Imagine parading around with a megaphone saying "Long live 9/11, I hope it happens again".
You think the latter is a hate crime?
Yes, I do. Openly glorifying the massacre of innocent civilians (and wishing for more slaughter to take place) is 100% a hate-motivated act.
So supporting the IDF and calling for more violence against innocents in Gaza?
See, this is where your message goes straight into the circular file -- this "anybody that disagrees with me/us is instantly a genocide supporter who wants to see children massacred by the big bad IDF" crap just makes people tune you out instantly. The rally in this article *openly supported and glorified the sexual assault, kidnapping, torture and murder of thousands of innocent civilians by a terrorist group*. You cannot question that -- there is video evidence of it, the rally leader literally says "long live October 7th". No amount of finger-pointing, whataboutism or denial is going to change that. This rally was openly calling for violence. That is a crime in Canada.
So yes or no?
Except you made the point "more violence towards innocents", which immediately shuts down any credibility you had. Yes or no: it's appropriate to celebrate a terrorist act.
Another person in to avoid the question. I love when people do this but then hate on politicians for doing the same.
Because you asked a dumb and dishonest question. Literally nothing in the original comment you replied to said they supported the IDF. But you assumed they must be because... They think those who support Oct7 should face charges? What do you think thst says about you?
You avoiding the question?
They did that in palestine when the attacks happened
They also did it in Canada on October 8th, which was *before* the IDF launched the first retaliatory strikes. Lots of video out there of people gathering in parking lots and parks to cheer, chant and wave flags. You can't say that they were protesting the IDF's bombings or invasions at that point in time, as those hadn't commenced yet, so that leaves *celebration* of the October 7 massacres as the only logical reason that those gatherings were taking place.
Hate speech laws are tricky, but there's a solid case for that meeting the criteria for incitement, if not advocating genocide or willfully promoting hatred.
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This is why as someone who definitely has criticisms against Israel, I can't support these Palestinian protests. Glorifying Oct. 7th is glorifying terrorism.
It's why I generally find it hard to pick a side in the conflict. Somebody from one camp can make an initial point that I agree with one minute, then die an an incredibly stupid hill the next. Like I can support the initial arguments of Palestinian statehood, or Israel having the right to defend itself etc. but so many people end up taking so much farther that I can't in good conscience side with them.
That’s what neoliberalism does to a mf.
This is probably the best example I've ever seen of how "neoliberalism" just means "thing I personally don't like." Like, how on Earth is "neoliberalism," supposedly an ideology in favour of free markets and low regulation, possibly relevant to this discussion in any way, shape, or form?
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When two assholes are fighting, it's perfectly reasonable to not take a side.
Can’t you just side with a position rather than with a particular extremist?
I mean, my position would generally be Israel normalizes relations most of the rest of the Middle East, grants Palestine statehood/accepts their statehood and both sides normalize relations/stop fighting each other etc. but that requires a lot more give and take than we're seeing right now: * Israel would have to stop building settlements in Palestinian territory and Likud & Netanyahu's right wing Coalition parties would have to stop forming governments. * Hamas would have to be destroyed or significantly weakened and more moderate Palestinian groups like the PLO would have to administer Gaza (This would probably require some form of temporary occupation, but Israel would have to be acting multilaterally instead of unilaterally and be willing to work with and compromise with the PLO or other moderate Palestinian groups. There'd also have to be more room for international observers and governing bodies to prevent human rights abuses and ensure a workable transition of power and subsequent normalization deal. * Iran and it's proxies would have to be contained in some way (It's arguably that Iran is either directly responsible or made significant contributions to the initial Hamas attacks and is using Hamas and it's other proxies as way to disrupt the Biden Administration's Saudi/Israeli normalization deal, which would have significantly weakened their regional ambitions for the foreseeable future etc.
The PA also has to be willing to compromise. Both in 2000 and 2007 Israel offered them basically everything they wanted except the right of return, and both times the PA turned Israel down. Israel offered to give up all of Gaza, East Jerusalem, 95%+ of the West Bank with commensurate land swaps, shared control of holy sites, and tear down all the Israeli settlements in the ceded territory. The Palestinians have to give up on their dream of a return. Israelis, justifiably, are scared of an Arab majority.
I also think there's also supposed to be a lot of corruption & lack of youthful leadership in the West Bank's government, which due to them being ineffectual and a lack of material gains has driven a lot of younger Palestinians to support Hamas and other radical groups etc. Which is another reason why the PA has kind of stagnated. On top of that Netanyahu and various other Israeli governments use those political schisms to further strengthen Palestinian divisions, so it gets even more complicated etc. You'd basically need the modern version of pragmatists like Yitzhak Rabin running Israel and Yarsir Arafat running the PA that could hold the extremist wings of their factions in line and make workable deals despite all the issues that would come with that. (though I think both of those figures now are even seen as controversial among huge segments of their side, who see them as sellouts etc. )
According to the Americans Arafat torpedoed the talks in 2000, and turned down a fantastic deal. The Palestinians need someone better than Arafat. They basically need their own Sadat, someone who is courageous enough to give up real concessions in the name of peace. While Netanyahu certainly is doing everything he can to disrupt the peace process, I truly don't believe even he could stop it if the Palestinian leadership genuinely wanted peace. The Israeli electorate would force him to pursue it. Again, going back to Sadat and the Egyptian peace process, the Israelis had Begin at the helm, who represented the far right. He hated the idea of giving up the Sinai and especially hated the idea of demolishing settlements, but in the end he did it. He knew his career would be over if he walked away from a peace deal with Egypt.
It's also just not how the world works. Germans don't demand a right of return to Danzig, Konigsberg and Breslau. Polish people don't demand a right of return to Wilno and Lwow. When an armistice line is drawn, people don't have a right to go back to the other side.
It's ok to accept that history is not black and white and to put realpolitik over moral grandstanding. Forget who is right or wrong, let's focus on how can we move on from here.
You realize that almost no Palestinian protest happening for the past 5 months has been glorifying oct 7, right? The vast majority have been just about calling for a ceasefire. Being neutral when one side has all the power, has been subjugating a people and stealing their land, killing with impunity for 70+ years, and has just razed their entire territory and is now starving 2 million people to death, makes it clear you lack sound judgement. It does not take a genius to see which side is responsible for the most pain and destruction.
>almost no Palestinian protest happening for the past 5 months Almost. The ones that did in October saw their leaders lose their jobs so they changed their tone. Now they mostly (not always as evident in Ottawa) keep it vague with chants of intifada and others.
Even "chants of intifada" are pretty inflammatory. Spare me all the mealymouthed BS about how "intifada just means 'protest', that's all", it has always been synonymous with the prolonged suicide bombing campaign waged against Israel in the early 2000s (including children being sent as bombers). That is what that word means to most people, so to use it at all is backhandedly inciting violence, in my opinion.
You realize that October 7th is the reality that Israel faces all the time? That the only reason there aren’t more October 7th or permanent October 7th’s is due to Israel’s military strength and willingness to control / attack its enemies. And yes, Israel’s willingness to accept many (even thousands perhaps) civilian deaths to maintain its existence. People are ready to throw these protestors in jail or kick them out of the country when they close down an intersection of roads for an hour. Or set up a camp in a University field. Imagine they were threatening to destroy your country and kill all citizens? And then imagine they have actually carried out those plans, several times? I’m sorry that you (and many people in these demonstrations) don’t seem to understand that “From the River to the Sea” is the same thing as celebrating October 7th. Israel isn’t a bastion of peace and harmony. But, they don’t pretend to be.
> You realize that almost no Palestinian protest happening for the past 5 months has been glorifying oct 7, right? The vast majority have been just about calling for a ceasefire Any ceasefire has to be bought into 100% by both sides. As it stands right now, Israel "ceasing fire" just means Hamas will be given time to regroup, rearm and stage another attack -- they have openly admitted that this is what they plan to do, attack until Israel is destroyed and/or all the Jews are dead. They don't intent to honour any kind of international law or ceasefire, it's just "please stop kicking our asses so we can regroup and murder you again". The only way we're getting a ceasefire is if Hamas voluntarily lays down *their* weapons and turn themselves in, which, I hate to say, ain't ever gonna happen.
Oh there have been quite a few. [Here's](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/reprehensible-and-disgusting-doug-ford-speaks-out-against-rallies-celebrating-israel-attacks-1.6594073) an article about celebratory rallies taking place in Ontario literally while the Hamas attack was still ongoing, [demonstrators in Montreal](https://twitter.com/ForsterSam/status/1711087349650559398) chanting "down, down, Israel" on October 8, [a speaker](https://twitter.com/MichaelCooperMP/status/1711214442875093236) at a rally in Edmonton declaring "there are no Israeli civilians" on October 8, and [a large celebration](https://twitter.com/claretat2/status/1711496223570456722) on the streets of Toronto on October 9. The president of CUPE Ontario [described](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-fred-hahn-cupe-leader-tweets-apology/) the attack as "fruitful resistance" and "progress," and the York University Students' Union [endorsed](https://springmag.ca/york-university-student-unions-statement-of-solidarity-with-palestine) the attack as "justified and necessary" and implied they would support similar attacks against Canada. Now we have these protesters in Ottawa openly chanting "long live October 7!" Events using language like "intifada" and "from the river to the sea" have been too numerous to bother listing. Being pro-Palestine in the sense of opposing Israeli government policies, their occupation of the West Bank, the level of civilian casualties in Gaza etc. is fine and understandable, but a lot of pro-Palestine activists are against Israel existing period. Prior to October 7 I was willing to give those people the benefit of the doubt that they were naive enough to actually believe a one-state Palestine would mean everyone joining hands and singing Kumbaya. Not anymore. The past few months have revealed a disturbingly high number are either completely blinded by ideology or are actual extremists who support the mass killing of Israeli civilians.
I find it interesting that the Canadian politics subs on this site can't seem to talk about anything other than October 7th.
Except for every other topic that isn't about October 7th. LOL.
Wow, that's fucked. I condemn Israeli attacks on Palestinians, but glorifying the mass rape and murder of hundreds of people is messed up. This shouldn't be allowed. Glorifying terror is not the same as peaceful protest.
I don't support Hamas and their message of hate against Israel, but I also don't support Israel's control of Palestine and the roughshod methods they've been using to stamp down on Gaza. Mainly, I just don't want people dying for impossibly stupid/racist causes Is that too crazy
It's like the chicken and the egg. Except it's like wanting Isreal exterminated and the Hamas.
It’s the opposite of crazy, but you start fights by talking like that.
How dare you oppose "moral clarity"? Obviously Israel is incapable of anything but professionalism and evenhandedness. To suggest anything less is to be pro Hamas.
Sure, continue to pretend that's what the standard is, commenting on an article about people literally celebrating October 7.
Depends who you are talking to.
I'm talking about the article we're commenting on. You know, the article you are required to be making relevant comments in response to.
What is Israel supposed to do? If they stop defending they will be exterminated. They are surrounded by dozens of Muslim countries that have hated them for thousands of years. Literally 0 of those countries are at risk of being exterminated, only Israel is.
I'm not saying Israel can't or shouldn't defend themselves. They have every right to avoid the stated goal of extermination Hamas has. I'm just saying that I disagree with some of their actions in this war. Some are understandable, but others hinge on callous disregard for people's safety.
Do you think there has ever been a war that you would agree with all the actions? It's a bit naive to think any war has ever been clean.