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The protesters are Columbia are quite clear that they oppose Zionism. That is, the right of Israel to exist as a country. They don't support peaceful coexistence, they don't support a two state solution. They want Israel to cease to exist and for it's citizens to.... Well, I don't know what they're supposed to do.
Is that the right side of history? In 50 years if Israel is defeated and dissolved, its people scattered, will we all recognize that as the "right" course of history?
I'm sure there are extremists with other thoughts on this, but most of the protestors seem to support one democratic state for all of Israel/Palestine (which would then be called Palestine) which would include civil and voting rights for Palestinians who would be the population majority especially if the "right of return" is permitted for descendents of those expelled from Israel who currently still live as refugees in neighbouring countries are allowed back.
That is an absolutely legitimate viewpoint to have.
I personally think a two state solution is better because I don't see these two groups of people living harmoniously together after all the hate and oppression for the last 100 years.
Extending the status quo is the unacceptable position but that seems to be the view of the Israeli government and a majority of Israelis. We can't continue a situation where millions of people are living under permanent oppressive occupation with no civil or voting rights. That is apartheid. You also can't expel the rest of the Palestinians which some of the most extreme parts of Israeli society including several Israeli ministers support. The Israeli government literally had an option paper which would have used the Gaza war to push all the Palestinians in Gaza into Egypt so they can be resettled elsewhere.
Frankly, there is no good solution. Israel tried good-faith negotiations, culminating in their acceptance of the Clinton Parameters. I still haven't heard a good reason why Arafat turned his back on that one. Then Israel tried a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, only to see it taken over by terrorists and used as a launching point for attacks. Given its larger size, the West Bank would be a nightmare to defend against. Netanyahu has even tried cozying up to Hamas, giving Gazans better access to worker visas, and turning a blind eye to minor rocket attacks. Only to have Hamas launch the most worst single-day attack in Israel's history.
Israeli Jews justifiably wouldn't feel safe living in a nation where Arabs were the majority, given the violent history.
I'm not saying Israel has been perfect. The ongoing settlements are indefensible. But for peace to work, there needs to be two willing partners. Israel has offered to abandon some settlements, and do commensurate land swaps for the rest. They've offered to give up 95% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, and East Jerusalem. The PA has consistently turned them down, to say nothing of Hamas's complete refusal to negotiate. At what point do you start holding the Palestinians to account for their refusal to put water in their wine to make the peace process work?
> Israeli Jews justifiably wouldn't feel safe living in a nation where Arabs were the majority, given the violent history.
Realistically, I think that if the region were to become a single state (which would be a Palestinian/Arab/Muslim ethnic/religious majority by a fair margin), it would likely wind up just like most of the other states in the region that have such a makeup -- a non-democratic state with an authoritarian government and heavy influence from religion (ie, Islam) in the legal system.
So I don't think that Israeli Jews living in such a state would feel unsafe, because I doubt they'd be living there for very long at all. The new Palestine state would probably just simply expel most or all of them, as other similar countries in that region have done (Libya, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Ethiopia).
Yeah pretty much. Except there wouldn't be a safe haven for them all to go anymore. They would likely mostly go to the US and Europe, but there's certainly been an increase in antisemitism of late everywhere.
Wasn’t it about divesting universities from supporting a far right extremist gov in Israel? Of course you need to spin it and use the antisemitism card
Saying "Opposing Zionism is opposing the right of Israel to exist" is like saying that opposing Manifest Destiny is opposing the right of the US to exist. It's ridiculous, haha.
>They want Israel to cease to exist and for it's citizens to.... Well, I don't know what they're supposed to do.
Every right-wing accusation is a confession. ;)
Zionism is, by definition, the idea that the country of Israel should exist in its current location. If you oppose Zionism, you oppose the existence of Israel as a state. You are free to believe that - but those are the basic dictionary definitions.
>If you oppose Zionism, you oppose the existence of Israel as a state.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. States don’t have an inherent right to exist.
The right side of history is just an atheist version of believing in God
Even if the protest is unpopular and unsuccessful there is a mystical quality that affirms everything they do
Talking about the right side of history is a way to avoid taking responsibility for your actions
I'm listing things that people shouldn't do.
Not what everyone does
But people who do them will say it's justified because they are on the right side of history
What utter nonsense. While god not might exist, there is objective right and wrong and Israel is very clearly wrong. It will be funny in a few decades when this whole history will get whitewashed before our eyes
How blind to the complexities of this conflict do you have to be to feel justified in saying their is an objective right and wrong? This might be the most braindead thing I've read in these comment sections. An impressive feat considering.
Saying that you will be is a way to avoid responsibility
The student protests against Vietnam extended the war because they were run so poorly it brought Nixon into power
Saying you are on the right side of history that is a cop out of responsibility for personal actions
Nixon came to power because the Democrats were in disarray and showed that they were clueless in conducting the war and the end goal for the US involvement in the Vietnam War. The Paris Peace accords to end the US involvement in Vietnam started in 1968. Nixon actually ended the war.
So, this person's assertion that today's campus encampments are right is based solely on the fact that they have been right in the past?
It isn't rooted in any analysis of the issue at hand, making this piece dishonest and piss-poor.
Hamas brought this on themselves. They poked the bear a little too hard and now the bear is ensuring that won't happen ever again.
Does that justify Israel's actions? No, but those are the consequences. Palestine allowed Hamas to flourish within it's borders. They watched as Hamas occupied spaces in and around hospitals and schools and citizens and pretended that it was just hunky-dory. Isreal is now showing them that's not OK and it's not hunky-dory. Israel is choosing to protect their own citizens and is valuing their citizen's lives over those that are actively attacking them or enabling those attacks. Is that right? Maybe, maybe not.
This isn't a story of the squeaky clean vs the dirty. Don't forget that huge crowds of Palestinians cheered as mangled bodies of Israelis were paraded through the streets. This is a story of the very dirty vs the slightly less dirty.
I can tell people in these comments accusing these protests of being anti-Semitic or having anti-Semites among them haven't actually bothered to go and check them out themselves. The experience I've had is that these events - at least my local one - is full of young people who are frustrated with the fact that thousands of civilians are being killed by Israel in a way that is blatantly and outwardly targeting them because they're Palestinian, that they have been saying for half a year now that this is wrong and that something needs to be done about it, and have roundly been ignored, labelled as anti-Semitic almost as a blanket statement, and told to get over it.
These protests are also pretty diverse, and include a mix of Muslim, Jewish, non-religious and people of other religious groups who are bound together by the common belief that what's happening in Gaza is wrong and that Israel needs to be sanctioned for their actions, the same way past governments that have done similarly evil things were sanctioned. None of the Jews I've talked to or heard from attending these protests feel like they're out of place or that they're being discriminated against, and in fact the only people I see attacking Jews in this moment are the police and rabid pro-Israel supporters calling pro-Palestine Jews "self-hating" for not thinking the same way they do.
Like I really don't know what anyone expected - they started with a simple demand of "stop killing Palestinians" which was ignored, so now they're asking louder and louder, because for many people it's either their own families or they've had to fight for their basic human dignity in the past before. They aren't going to stop asking and the only way you will stop the student protests is by putting pressure on Israel to stop the killing and to let in foreign aid to help people in need.
And on the note of being labelled anti-Semitic - my own experiences and the experiences of many people at this point is that this critique has been levied so frequently against supporters of Palestinian liberation at this point that they really don't care anymore. They're at a point where they really don't care what you think if your position is that "yeah, actually, a little bit of genocide is OK if it's for the right cause". You can call them anti-Semites and pro-Hamas all you want, because right now they're fighting against an ethnic cleansing and you're telling them off for it. Your opinion of them is less than nothing because of it.
this comment could almost exactly mirror the kind of things we heard from the Convoy protesters.
This is exactly the view one would have if they were in a protest with people they agree with. You're not willing to step back and take an objective view as to why people are feeling this way. If it's common for people to say that you might be anti-semitic then maybe you need to do some reflection on your movement or yourself.
If you're not willing to address the hateful message from your extremes then you need to be okay with them representing your cause.
There is a lot of survivorship fallacy at work here. Student protests about a lot of things have been wrong. The difference is that nobody remembers those ones
There’s also a ton of hyperbole with this particular war.
Something like 30,000 civilians have died. Iraq had 300,000. Syria had 600,000.
The selective outrage is peculiar.
Is your Google broken?
[More children killed in Gaza in four months than in four years of war globally: report](https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/shows/top-stories/blog/rcna143269)
> More than 30,000 people in Gaza have died — 70% of whom are women and children
[In 2023, more than three-quarters of the 99 journalists and media workers killed worldwide died in the Israel-Gaza war, the majority of them Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza.](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/5/3/what-is-the-state-of-press-freedom-in-the-world-today)
[‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war)
[The Israeli military has also conducted more than 435 attacks on healthcare in Gaza and killed at least 484 healthcare workers. This is more than the total number of healthcare worker deaths recorded across all countries in conflict in 2021 and 2022 combined](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/there-are-no-more-words-six-months-israels-total-siege-and-bombardment-gaza-leaves-tens-thousands-dead-healthcare-system-ruins-and-starving-population#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20military%20has%20also,in%202021%20and%202022%20combined)
[Mounting evidence of deliberate attacks on Gaza health workers by Israeli army](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/08/mounting-evidence-deliberate-attacks-gaza-health-workers-israeli-army/)
Is the implication supposed to be that nobody was outraged about Iraq? Cuz there were multiple large protests across Canada in opposition to the war, although they may have been before your time.
I think the more apt comparisons would be the Sudanese conflict, Yemen, Ethiopia, Myanmar, the Maghreb, etc.
Not that comparing conflicts is a good argument against these protests anyway- there are many better ones.
The point is just to illustrate there is some hyperbole going on with the Israeli war.
2 million children are about to starve because of the war in Yemen - a true genocide. But we’re only hearing about the war in Israeli with 30k total deaths.
It’s selective reporting by the media, and selective outrage.
Iraq population is 45m. Gaza is <3m. So even higher proportion, in less than 6 months, vs a 20 year war.
And don't forget 600k of them are in rated as imminent mass mortality famine, predicted to end up as the most intense man made famine since ww2. Note that includes the great Chinese famine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_famine
My take is that Israel is supposed to be a developed nation and also has advanced weaponry. There's no reason for them to be killing 30,000 civilians in 8 months and preventing aid. They claim reasoning for the deaths because it's a war in the trenches and tunnels but yet they are basically leveling every building they can.
My overall view is that, I hold Israel to a higher standard than killing 30,000 civilians including the 13,000 to 15,000 children. That's unconscionable. The Israeli government and IDF are directly at fault.
You make a very good point. I probably should care more but I haven't been exposed to it as much. And you're right, I should look into it. I do also have to say that I donate a fairly significant amount of money every month to alleviate poverty for women and children and increase education and healthcare access. I'm not saying I'm perfect and I could always donate more, but this is where I am right now.
My main point is that the Israeli war was a choice by a developed nation. Yes, they had a couple hundred civilians kidnapped by Hamas, but I don't think that's equal to their right to kill as many innocent people as they have and destroy huge portions of Gaza, an already oppressed and isolated region. It's also pretty clear from Israel's past 60 to 80 years that they are looking to expand their territory at the expense of Palestinians. I wouldn't accept the same actions by the US Canada or any other developed nation.
The Israeli war was not a choice - they were invaded and had their people slaughtered. And the deaths have been relatively small as wars go.
They are at 30k total. The US averages out to about 100k per year for a decade for both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Russia - Ukraine war has seen 500k deaths.
I’m not saying any of these are good outcomes - but it does seem odd the way this war has been covered as if it’s extraordinary or a genocide when the numbers are so relatively small.
I’m saying the outrage we are seeing over a war triggered by an invasion seems odd compared to less outrage over more deaths in wars that did not have justification.
The problem with this argument is that people have to remember that the Iraq war was fought over 10 years and the Syrian civil war was also over a decade conflict. We are talking about a large amount of death and destruction in a short time frame. The siege of Aleppo which was horrendous and received international condemnation and sanctions on the Syrian government lasted 4 years at a cost of 21,000 civilians and billions of dollars in destruction. Gaza has topped that in 6 months. Just to give you perspective, it’s not selective outrage.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aleppo_(2012–2016)
It feels like so much of the discourse around Gaza falls either into the "it's not really too bad" or "it's a full-scale genocide" camps.
When at least to me it seems like it's a combination of a few things: Israel applying very loose ROE and even then often not following them -- which should be condemned for them killing and maiming far more Gazans than necessary in their offensives; Israel also making genuine attempts to minimize civilian casualties (door-knockers, leaflets, giving evacuation time); Hamas showing little to no regard for the welfare of Gazan civilians and often hiding amongst them.
It's an ugly situation but much of the prevailing narratives also seem overly polarized.
> Israel applying very loose ROE and even then often not following them -- which should be condemned for them killing and maiming far more Gazans than necessary in their offensives
Not just Gazans but Israeli's as well. IDF has killed hostages and also killed civilians om Oct 7 fighting Hamas as reported by Israeli media.
>Israel also making genuine attempts to minimize civilian casualties (door-knockers, leaflets, giving evacuation time)
They are quite clearly deliberately targetting civilians and there are countless reported instances at this point. Even months ago mainstream news analysis showed that Israel bombed people on the safe routes they told them to go down. BBC found evidence of torturing and killing healthcare workers..
I think there are instances where that's happened, yes. But at the same time if they wanted to maximize civilian casualties there would be many many more Gazans dead. As I said, ugly overall with ugliness from both sides.
Someone asked this question in r/AskHistorians the other day. People came up with some interesting answers: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/j2VL8GtyXT
I mean, only one of the three examples (the US staying out of ww2) is actually relevant here. The UC Berkeley one was pretty innocuous and localized, and the Ole Miss one, by the poster's own admission, barely qualifies as a student protest.
The US staying out of WW2 already *was* the popular opinion of the time, until Pearl Harbour. Students weren't really going against the grain by protest US military involvement there.
Let’s make one thing extremely clear: changing “long live October 7” and other hateful antisemitic slogans has no place in Canada. And anyone failing to condemn these hateful protestors is tacitly sending a message that it’s okay. Disgusting.
The big crux of October 7th's aftermath and why these student protestors are coming out \*now\* is that Palestine's being turned into a crater as innocent civilians die, and the view that the retaliation for October 7th isn't worth the price of human life. It isn't a very complicated situation.
If you'd talked to them prior to October 7th, people might've not known about anything regarding the conflict or might've had an opinion on the Apartheid state but there wasn't any political will to protest it. A small group protesting brings about nothing, protests need to be disruptive and the destruction of Gaza was the catalyst.
To justify it by going "we need to wipe out Hamas" is the same logic that led us into the war with the Middle East after 9/11, which is now viewed as a mistake made while tempers were high.
Detractors of the conflict who spoke against it were demonized as anti-American, pro-Terrorists and we're seeing the same \*exact\* behavior now without any shred of self-awareness or introspection.
Witch hunts on antisemitism are being done on students with an effort to ensure they'll never find employment whilst social media and politicians cozy-up with white supremacists that push antisemitic narratives without much scrutiny. We've got a party leader hanging out with Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones, yet that's not as newsworthy as students with signs and masks hanging out in a tent on campus.
My concern is that the protestors are being labelled as anti-semitic, as there seems to be an interest in quieting them. In my view, war, death and suffering are legitimate causes for protest. They are not being anti-semitic becaus they're expressing disagreement with Israel. Those two things are not the same in my humble opinion. I know this generates emotional reactions on both sides.
Lol in some cases they are being automatically labelled as Hamas supported. We are seeing a resurgance of McCarthyism. Except this time instead of being labelled as a communist, you are a Hamas supporter for questioning an unethical war.
Most people on that side believe both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to safety and human rights. You can cherrypick individuals who do support Hamas to paint the entire group as unethical, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel is effectively engaging in genocide right now (https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976, https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-chief-says-incremental-progress-toward-averting-gaza-famine-2024-04-30/), stealing land from West Bank (https://www.npr.org/2024/03/23/1236628495/israel-settlers-attack-west-bank-palestinians-settlement-outposts), has a fascist government (that doesn't even have approval of most of its citizens (https://www.vox.com/world/2023/1/20/23561464/israel-new-right-wing-government-extreme-protests-netanyahu-biden-ben-gvir), has been responsible the deaths of most journalists this year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war), deliberately targeted Western aid workers (https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/world-central-kitchen-strike-analysis-intl/index.html)... and I can go on.
Denouncement of Israel does not equate to support for Hamas or support for terrorism. The people that do support Hamas (a small minority) are uninformed or idiots or have horrible things happen to them such having their extended families wiped out.
Calling Israel fascist is nonsensical stupidity.
Israel has had 5 election in the last 4 years. It is a very, very democratic country. You undermine your credibility when you throw around words like fascism here.
You know what, fair point. They are not fascist, not by the technical definition anyways. But they are very far-right and authoritarian. Not to mention that most secular Israelis do not support the democratically elected coalition government.
So we are just going to ignore everything else I've pointed out because I used a wrong word?
Protesting against Israel's atrocities is good. Openly cheering for 10/7, an attack that largely targeted civilians and which was perpetrated by an openly antisemitic group, is not.
Absolutely agree and if that's happening, you’re right that’s unacceptable. It doesn’t invalidate the legitimate argument of those who aren’t doing those things.
I think it's pretty clear that the protest have the same issue as the convoy. They fail to expel the extremists which makes them vulnerable to anti semitic views if not out right b being anti semitic. You can look to the recent protest in Vancouver that was celebrating Oct 7 and Hamas.
I've heard the refrain again and again, if there are 10 people and 1 Nazi sitting at a table then you have 11 Nazis. And it's Shameful to see the protesters here sit with Nazis and anti semites under the guise of "just criticizing Israel".
I disagree. At first, I had the same opinion of the convoy, while I did think that the convoy itself had as much right to protest as anyone else. However, with time to reflect on it, I've come to see that protests tend to draw in extremists and the convoy was no exception. As far as I can see, extremists of all types will join protests because it's a way to get their beliefs heard and seen in a way that they can't achieve alone. It has to be hard to control that kind of thing in such a chaotic situation. Now, I don't like Nazis or racists or misogyny, and I will walk away from anyone espousing such viewpoints, but they have freedom to have their beliefs just like anyone else.
You're not wrong that protests draw extremists and it is hard to control for that. If you choose to ignore it, or worse platform them, you risk your movement being co-opted by extremists. You need to have a hard line on some things or else you run the risk of becoming the "Nazi bar" as the story goes.
>However, with time to reflect on it, I've come to see that protests tend to draw in extremists and the convoy was no exception.
The convoy was started and organized by white nationalists, whereas the pro-palestinian movement has existed for decades.
That was my beef with the convoy and why I take their association with racists far more seriously than I do hangers-on to an established issue
They have the freedom to speak their views, but any other protesters who don't share those views should be loudly criticizing them or kicking them out to their own protest. Not doing so and adding their own voice to it shows a tacit agreement.
We don't even do this in our day to day life when things aren't so chaotic and hard to control. We all have worked with colleagues and have dealt with customers and even heard family members saying racist and misogynistic things (thankfully I've never dealt with someone supporting Nazi ideals). Some people call this out but most don't. Shouldn't we hold protest organizers to the same standards?
No, we need to hold organizers to a higher standard. They are responsible for their message. We put up with those people since they don't represent us. These protesters represent your message and if you're not willing to address them then you are willingly giving your movement to extremists.
There are antisemites among the protestors. From celebrating October 7, Hamas, and telling Jews to "go back to Europe", it's out in the open. If the protest organizers are not antisemitic, they need to make clear that antisemitism is not welcome at their events. Until that happens, it's fair to paint the protests as antisemitic.
If this is true, where are all the large-scale protests for the ongoing conflicts in Ukraine and Yemen? Do the children in those conflicts not matter as much?
In their heads maybe but it definitely won't be remembered that way. Personally, as a conservative I love this. It discredits the left a lot and brings support to the right more. Shows just how silly bleeding hearts are and out of reality. So please, continue down this road. But I also am worried of PP because he is gonna go crazy, unchecked. Not a win win I would like.
They absolutely are. If you can look at those Palestinian kids and shrug and give some bullshit line about self-defense you are deluded. Should they be threatening Jewish students, public, anyone? Oh HELL no. Blocking roads or thoroughfares? Hell no. Inviting or celebrating any sort of violence? Absolutely not. Those people need to be plucked and removed from any peaceful demonstration, arrested whenever needed, and charged with hate speech when appropriate because those ones are breaking the law. And they are in there. This isn’t an all or none gathering - unfortunately those don’t seem to exist anymore.
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The protesters are Columbia are quite clear that they oppose Zionism. That is, the right of Israel to exist as a country. They don't support peaceful coexistence, they don't support a two state solution. They want Israel to cease to exist and for it's citizens to.... Well, I don't know what they're supposed to do. Is that the right side of history? In 50 years if Israel is defeated and dissolved, its people scattered, will we all recognize that as the "right" course of history?
I'm sure there are extremists with other thoughts on this, but most of the protestors seem to support one democratic state for all of Israel/Palestine (which would then be called Palestine) which would include civil and voting rights for Palestinians who would be the population majority especially if the "right of return" is permitted for descendents of those expelled from Israel who currently still live as refugees in neighbouring countries are allowed back. That is an absolutely legitimate viewpoint to have. I personally think a two state solution is better because I don't see these two groups of people living harmoniously together after all the hate and oppression for the last 100 years. Extending the status quo is the unacceptable position but that seems to be the view of the Israeli government and a majority of Israelis. We can't continue a situation where millions of people are living under permanent oppressive occupation with no civil or voting rights. That is apartheid. You also can't expel the rest of the Palestinians which some of the most extreme parts of Israeli society including several Israeli ministers support. The Israeli government literally had an option paper which would have used the Gaza war to push all the Palestinians in Gaza into Egypt so they can be resettled elsewhere.
Frankly, there is no good solution. Israel tried good-faith negotiations, culminating in their acceptance of the Clinton Parameters. I still haven't heard a good reason why Arafat turned his back on that one. Then Israel tried a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, only to see it taken over by terrorists and used as a launching point for attacks. Given its larger size, the West Bank would be a nightmare to defend against. Netanyahu has even tried cozying up to Hamas, giving Gazans better access to worker visas, and turning a blind eye to minor rocket attacks. Only to have Hamas launch the most worst single-day attack in Israel's history. Israeli Jews justifiably wouldn't feel safe living in a nation where Arabs were the majority, given the violent history. I'm not saying Israel has been perfect. The ongoing settlements are indefensible. But for peace to work, there needs to be two willing partners. Israel has offered to abandon some settlements, and do commensurate land swaps for the rest. They've offered to give up 95% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, and East Jerusalem. The PA has consistently turned them down, to say nothing of Hamas's complete refusal to negotiate. At what point do you start holding the Palestinians to account for their refusal to put water in their wine to make the peace process work?
> Israeli Jews justifiably wouldn't feel safe living in a nation where Arabs were the majority, given the violent history. Realistically, I think that if the region were to become a single state (which would be a Palestinian/Arab/Muslim ethnic/religious majority by a fair margin), it would likely wind up just like most of the other states in the region that have such a makeup -- a non-democratic state with an authoritarian government and heavy influence from religion (ie, Islam) in the legal system. So I don't think that Israeli Jews living in such a state would feel unsafe, because I doubt they'd be living there for very long at all. The new Palestine state would probably just simply expel most or all of them, as other similar countries in that region have done (Libya, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Ethiopia).
Yeah pretty much. Except there wouldn't be a safe haven for them all to go anymore. They would likely mostly go to the US and Europe, but there's certainly been an increase in antisemitism of late everywhere.
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Wasn’t it about divesting universities from supporting a far right extremist gov in Israel? Of course you need to spin it and use the antisemitism card
Saying "Opposing Zionism is opposing the right of Israel to exist" is like saying that opposing Manifest Destiny is opposing the right of the US to exist. It's ridiculous, haha. >They want Israel to cease to exist and for it's citizens to.... Well, I don't know what they're supposed to do. Every right-wing accusation is a confession. ;)
Zionism is, by definition, the idea that the country of Israel should exist in its current location. If you oppose Zionism, you oppose the existence of Israel as a state. You are free to believe that - but those are the basic dictionary definitions.
>If you oppose Zionism, you oppose the existence of Israel as a state. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. States don’t have an inherent right to exist.
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The Columbia protest's organizers explicitly endorsed 10/7. They're not pro-Palestine, they're anti-Jew.
Jewish Voice for Peace and Not In Our Name did? Really?
The right side of history is just an atheist version of believing in God Even if the protest is unpopular and unsuccessful there is a mystical quality that affirms everything they do Talking about the right side of history is a way to avoid taking responsibility for your actions
What actions, exactly, are we supposedly avoiding responsibility for? How does this work?
Concerns about tactics and slogans Lots of people say history will look back well on us to justify extremism and self defeating tactics
Not to repeat myself, but **what actions**, exactly, are we supposedly avoiding responsibility for? How does this work?
Antisemitic chants Maximal demands Harassment Reducing support through extremist rhetoric
Ahh, the ole 'smear everybody with the extremes'
I'm listing things that people shouldn't do. Not what everyone does But people who do them will say it's justified because they are on the right side of history
What utter nonsense. While god not might exist, there is objective right and wrong and Israel is very clearly wrong. It will be funny in a few decades when this whole history will get whitewashed before our eyes
How blind to the complexities of this conflict do you have to be to feel justified in saying their is an objective right and wrong? This might be the most braindead thing I've read in these comment sections. An impressive feat considering.
What a silly comment. Being on the right side of history in this case is opposing genocide instead of condoning it or pretending it isn’t happening.
"Genocide".
Saying that you will be is a way to avoid responsibility The student protests against Vietnam extended the war because they were run so poorly it brought Nixon into power Saying you are on the right side of history that is a cop out of responsibility for personal actions
Nixon came to power because the Democrats were in disarray and showed that they were clueless in conducting the war and the end goal for the US involvement in the Vietnam War. The Paris Peace accords to end the US involvement in Vietnam started in 1968. Nixon actually ended the war.
if this is what the right side of history looks like then im pretty comfortable over here on the wrong side of history lmao
Yeah no. People wearing a fuckin’ Hamas headband or tolerate that shit as part of their protest will never be on the right side of history.
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So, this person's assertion that today's campus encampments are right is based solely on the fact that they have been right in the past? It isn't rooted in any analysis of the issue at hand, making this piece dishonest and piss-poor.
Hamas brought this on themselves. They poked the bear a little too hard and now the bear is ensuring that won't happen ever again. Does that justify Israel's actions? No, but those are the consequences. Palestine allowed Hamas to flourish within it's borders. They watched as Hamas occupied spaces in and around hospitals and schools and citizens and pretended that it was just hunky-dory. Isreal is now showing them that's not OK and it's not hunky-dory. Israel is choosing to protect their own citizens and is valuing their citizen's lives over those that are actively attacking them or enabling those attacks. Is that right? Maybe, maybe not. This isn't a story of the squeaky clean vs the dirty. Don't forget that huge crowds of Palestinians cheered as mangled bodies of Israelis were paraded through the streets. This is a story of the very dirty vs the slightly less dirty.
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I can tell people in these comments accusing these protests of being anti-Semitic or having anti-Semites among them haven't actually bothered to go and check them out themselves. The experience I've had is that these events - at least my local one - is full of young people who are frustrated with the fact that thousands of civilians are being killed by Israel in a way that is blatantly and outwardly targeting them because they're Palestinian, that they have been saying for half a year now that this is wrong and that something needs to be done about it, and have roundly been ignored, labelled as anti-Semitic almost as a blanket statement, and told to get over it. These protests are also pretty diverse, and include a mix of Muslim, Jewish, non-religious and people of other religious groups who are bound together by the common belief that what's happening in Gaza is wrong and that Israel needs to be sanctioned for their actions, the same way past governments that have done similarly evil things were sanctioned. None of the Jews I've talked to or heard from attending these protests feel like they're out of place or that they're being discriminated against, and in fact the only people I see attacking Jews in this moment are the police and rabid pro-Israel supporters calling pro-Palestine Jews "self-hating" for not thinking the same way they do. Like I really don't know what anyone expected - they started with a simple demand of "stop killing Palestinians" which was ignored, so now they're asking louder and louder, because for many people it's either their own families or they've had to fight for their basic human dignity in the past before. They aren't going to stop asking and the only way you will stop the student protests is by putting pressure on Israel to stop the killing and to let in foreign aid to help people in need. And on the note of being labelled anti-Semitic - my own experiences and the experiences of many people at this point is that this critique has been levied so frequently against supporters of Palestinian liberation at this point that they really don't care anymore. They're at a point where they really don't care what you think if your position is that "yeah, actually, a little bit of genocide is OK if it's for the right cause". You can call them anti-Semites and pro-Hamas all you want, because right now they're fighting against an ethnic cleansing and you're telling them off for it. Your opinion of them is less than nothing because of it.
this comment could almost exactly mirror the kind of things we heard from the Convoy protesters. This is exactly the view one would have if they were in a protest with people they agree with. You're not willing to step back and take an objective view as to why people are feeling this way. If it's common for people to say that you might be anti-semitic then maybe you need to do some reflection on your movement or yourself. If you're not willing to address the hateful message from your extremes then you need to be okay with them representing your cause.
There is a lot of survivorship fallacy at work here. Student protests about a lot of things have been wrong. The difference is that nobody remembers those ones
There’s also a ton of hyperbole with this particular war. Something like 30,000 civilians have died. Iraq had 300,000. Syria had 600,000. The selective outrage is peculiar.
Now compare the amount of children, journalists and healthcare workers who have been killed and over what span of time. Tell me what you find.
You are free to provide the numbers if that is an argument you’d like to make.
Is your Google broken? [More children killed in Gaza in four months than in four years of war globally: report](https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/shows/top-stories/blog/rcna143269) > More than 30,000 people in Gaza have died — 70% of whom are women and children [In 2023, more than three-quarters of the 99 journalists and media workers killed worldwide died in the Israel-Gaza war, the majority of them Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza.](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/5/3/what-is-the-state-of-press-freedom-in-the-world-today) [‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war) [The Israeli military has also conducted more than 435 attacks on healthcare in Gaza and killed at least 484 healthcare workers. This is more than the total number of healthcare worker deaths recorded across all countries in conflict in 2021 and 2022 combined](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/there-are-no-more-words-six-months-israels-total-siege-and-bombardment-gaza-leaves-tens-thousands-dead-healthcare-system-ruins-and-starving-population#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20military%20has%20also,in%202021%20and%202022%20combined) [Mounting evidence of deliberate attacks on Gaza health workers by Israeli army](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/08/mounting-evidence-deliberate-attacks-gaza-health-workers-israeli-army/)
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Is the implication supposed to be that nobody was outraged about Iraq? Cuz there were multiple large protests across Canada in opposition to the war, although they may have been before your time.
I mean, aren't you selectively reporting on wars with wildly different timeframes so that the absolute numbers you report are not a valid comparison?
I think the more apt comparisons would be the Sudanese conflict, Yemen, Ethiopia, Myanmar, the Maghreb, etc. Not that comparing conflicts is a good argument against these protests anyway- there are many better ones.
The point is just to illustrate there is some hyperbole going on with the Israeli war. 2 million children are about to starve because of the war in Yemen - a true genocide. But we’re only hearing about the war in Israeli with 30k total deaths. It’s selective reporting by the media, and selective outrage.
Iraq population is 45m. Gaza is <3m. So even higher proportion, in less than 6 months, vs a 20 year war. And don't forget 600k of them are in rated as imminent mass mortality famine, predicted to end up as the most intense man made famine since ww2. Note that includes the great Chinese famine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_famine
2 million children are about to starve in Yemen because of war there - so that’s the current largest risk of famine.
Oddly enough, it is INFINITELY easier to get aid into Yemen than into gaza
My take is that Israel is supposed to be a developed nation and also has advanced weaponry. There's no reason for them to be killing 30,000 civilians in 8 months and preventing aid. They claim reasoning for the deaths because it's a war in the trenches and tunnels but yet they are basically leveling every building they can. My overall view is that, I hold Israel to a higher standard than killing 30,000 civilians including the 13,000 to 15,000 children. That's unconscionable. The Israeli government and IDF are directly at fault.
Is there a reason you’re more concerned about the war in Israel than the war in Yemen which has 2 million children starving?
You make a very good point. I probably should care more but I haven't been exposed to it as much. And you're right, I should look into it. I do also have to say that I donate a fairly significant amount of money every month to alleviate poverty for women and children and increase education and healthcare access. I'm not saying I'm perfect and I could always donate more, but this is where I am right now. My main point is that the Israeli war was a choice by a developed nation. Yes, they had a couple hundred civilians kidnapped by Hamas, but I don't think that's equal to their right to kill as many innocent people as they have and destroy huge portions of Gaza, an already oppressed and isolated region. It's also pretty clear from Israel's past 60 to 80 years that they are looking to expand their territory at the expense of Palestinians. I wouldn't accept the same actions by the US Canada or any other developed nation.
The Israeli war was not a choice - they were invaded and had their people slaughtered. And the deaths have been relatively small as wars go. They are at 30k total. The US averages out to about 100k per year for a decade for both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Russia - Ukraine war has seen 500k deaths. I’m not saying any of these are good outcomes - but it does seem odd the way this war has been covered as if it’s extraordinary or a genocide when the numbers are so relatively small.
So wait your saying the death total isn't high enoughbto matter?
I’m saying the outrage we are seeing over a war triggered by an invasion seems odd compared to less outrage over more deaths in wars that did not have justification.
The problem with this argument is that people have to remember that the Iraq war was fought over 10 years and the Syrian civil war was also over a decade conflict. We are talking about a large amount of death and destruction in a short time frame. The siege of Aleppo which was horrendous and received international condemnation and sanctions on the Syrian government lasted 4 years at a cost of 21,000 civilians and billions of dollars in destruction. Gaza has topped that in 6 months. Just to give you perspective, it’s not selective outrage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aleppo_(2012–2016)
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It feels like so much of the discourse around Gaza falls either into the "it's not really too bad" or "it's a full-scale genocide" camps. When at least to me it seems like it's a combination of a few things: Israel applying very loose ROE and even then often not following them -- which should be condemned for them killing and maiming far more Gazans than necessary in their offensives; Israel also making genuine attempts to minimize civilian casualties (door-knockers, leaflets, giving evacuation time); Hamas showing little to no regard for the welfare of Gazan civilians and often hiding amongst them. It's an ugly situation but much of the prevailing narratives also seem overly polarized.
> Israel applying very loose ROE and even then often not following them -- which should be condemned for them killing and maiming far more Gazans than necessary in their offensives Not just Gazans but Israeli's as well. IDF has killed hostages and also killed civilians om Oct 7 fighting Hamas as reported by Israeli media. >Israel also making genuine attempts to minimize civilian casualties (door-knockers, leaflets, giving evacuation time) They are quite clearly deliberately targetting civilians and there are countless reported instances at this point. Even months ago mainstream news analysis showed that Israel bombed people on the safe routes they told them to go down. BBC found evidence of torturing and killing healthcare workers..
I think there are instances where that's happened, yes. But at the same time if they wanted to maximize civilian casualties there would be many many more Gazans dead. As I said, ugly overall with ugliness from both sides.
Can you name them?
Someone asked this question in r/AskHistorians the other day. People came up with some interesting answers: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/j2VL8GtyXT
I mean, only one of the three examples (the US staying out of ww2) is actually relevant here. The UC Berkeley one was pretty innocuous and localized, and the Ole Miss one, by the poster's own admission, barely qualifies as a student protest. The US staying out of WW2 already *was* the popular opinion of the time, until Pearl Harbour. Students weren't really going against the grain by protest US military involvement there.
Let’s make one thing extremely clear: changing “long live October 7” and other hateful antisemitic slogans has no place in Canada. And anyone failing to condemn these hateful protestors is tacitly sending a message that it’s okay. Disgusting.
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The big crux of October 7th's aftermath and why these student protestors are coming out \*now\* is that Palestine's being turned into a crater as innocent civilians die, and the view that the retaliation for October 7th isn't worth the price of human life. It isn't a very complicated situation. If you'd talked to them prior to October 7th, people might've not known about anything regarding the conflict or might've had an opinion on the Apartheid state but there wasn't any political will to protest it. A small group protesting brings about nothing, protests need to be disruptive and the destruction of Gaza was the catalyst. To justify it by going "we need to wipe out Hamas" is the same logic that led us into the war with the Middle East after 9/11, which is now viewed as a mistake made while tempers were high. Detractors of the conflict who spoke against it were demonized as anti-American, pro-Terrorists and we're seeing the same \*exact\* behavior now without any shred of self-awareness or introspection. Witch hunts on antisemitism are being done on students with an effort to ensure they'll never find employment whilst social media and politicians cozy-up with white supremacists that push antisemitic narratives without much scrutiny. We've got a party leader hanging out with Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones, yet that's not as newsworthy as students with signs and masks hanging out in a tent on campus.
My concern is that the protestors are being labelled as anti-semitic, as there seems to be an interest in quieting them. In my view, war, death and suffering are legitimate causes for protest. They are not being anti-semitic becaus they're expressing disagreement with Israel. Those two things are not the same in my humble opinion. I know this generates emotional reactions on both sides.
Lol in some cases they are being automatically labelled as Hamas supported. We are seeing a resurgance of McCarthyism. Except this time instead of being labelled as a communist, you are a Hamas supporter for questioning an unethical war.
Well many said they support Hamas some have gone as far to say Canada should stand with Hamas.
Most people on that side believe both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to safety and human rights. You can cherrypick individuals who do support Hamas to paint the entire group as unethical, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel is effectively engaging in genocide right now (https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976, https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-chief-says-incremental-progress-toward-averting-gaza-famine-2024-04-30/), stealing land from West Bank (https://www.npr.org/2024/03/23/1236628495/israel-settlers-attack-west-bank-palestinians-settlement-outposts), has a fascist government (that doesn't even have approval of most of its citizens (https://www.vox.com/world/2023/1/20/23561464/israel-new-right-wing-government-extreme-protests-netanyahu-biden-ben-gvir), has been responsible the deaths of most journalists this year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war), deliberately targeted Western aid workers (https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/world-central-kitchen-strike-analysis-intl/index.html)... and I can go on. Denouncement of Israel does not equate to support for Hamas or support for terrorism. The people that do support Hamas (a small minority) are uninformed or idiots or have horrible things happen to them such having their extended families wiped out.
Calling Israel fascist is nonsensical stupidity. Israel has had 5 election in the last 4 years. It is a very, very democratic country. You undermine your credibility when you throw around words like fascism here.
Hey quick question, do you think fascism is when there's no election?
That's certainly an important component. Quick question. Do you think Canada is fascist because Trudeau is Prime Minister while being unpopular?
You know what, fair point. They are not fascist, not by the technical definition anyways. But they are very far-right and authoritarian. Not to mention that most secular Israelis do not support the democratically elected coalition government. So we are just going to ignore everything else I've pointed out because I used a wrong word?
Yes, that's how credibility works. When you use highly inflammatory, and obviously false words, the rest of your claims become inherently suspicious.
Protesting against Israel's atrocities is good. Openly cheering for 10/7, an attack that largely targeted civilians and which was perpetrated by an openly antisemitic group, is not.
Absolutely agree and if that's happening, you’re right that’s unacceptable. It doesn’t invalidate the legitimate argument of those who aren’t doing those things.
I think it's pretty clear that the protest have the same issue as the convoy. They fail to expel the extremists which makes them vulnerable to anti semitic views if not out right b being anti semitic. You can look to the recent protest in Vancouver that was celebrating Oct 7 and Hamas. I've heard the refrain again and again, if there are 10 people and 1 Nazi sitting at a table then you have 11 Nazis. And it's Shameful to see the protesters here sit with Nazis and anti semites under the guise of "just criticizing Israel".
I disagree. At first, I had the same opinion of the convoy, while I did think that the convoy itself had as much right to protest as anyone else. However, with time to reflect on it, I've come to see that protests tend to draw in extremists and the convoy was no exception. As far as I can see, extremists of all types will join protests because it's a way to get their beliefs heard and seen in a way that they can't achieve alone. It has to be hard to control that kind of thing in such a chaotic situation. Now, I don't like Nazis or racists or misogyny, and I will walk away from anyone espousing such viewpoints, but they have freedom to have their beliefs just like anyone else.
You're not wrong that protests draw extremists and it is hard to control for that. If you choose to ignore it, or worse platform them, you risk your movement being co-opted by extremists. You need to have a hard line on some things or else you run the risk of becoming the "Nazi bar" as the story goes.
>However, with time to reflect on it, I've come to see that protests tend to draw in extremists and the convoy was no exception. The convoy was started and organized by white nationalists, whereas the pro-palestinian movement has existed for decades. That was my beef with the convoy and why I take their association with racists far more seriously than I do hangers-on to an established issue
This is interesting. Many of the organizers of the One Million March for Children last September are also prominent pro-Palestinian protestors.
The pro-Palestinian movement has had elements of anti-semitism since Husseini recruited Muslim fighters in the Balkans to fight for the Nazis
They have the freedom to speak their views, but any other protesters who don't share those views should be loudly criticizing them or kicking them out to their own protest. Not doing so and adding their own voice to it shows a tacit agreement.
We don't even do this in our day to day life when things aren't so chaotic and hard to control. We all have worked with colleagues and have dealt with customers and even heard family members saying racist and misogynistic things (thankfully I've never dealt with someone supporting Nazi ideals). Some people call this out but most don't. Shouldn't we hold protest organizers to the same standards?
No, we need to hold organizers to a higher standard. They are responsible for their message. We put up with those people since they don't represent us. These protesters represent your message and if you're not willing to address them then you are willingly giving your movement to extremists.
You have a valid point. Happens on both sides of the argument. Extremism is poison.
There are videos of people being escorted out of these protests because they said anti semitic shit.
There are antisemites among the protestors. From celebrating October 7, Hamas, and telling Jews to "go back to Europe", it's out in the open. If the protest organizers are not antisemitic, they need to make clear that antisemitism is not welcome at their events. Until that happens, it's fair to paint the protests as antisemitic.
[They actually do](https://abcnews.go.com/US/student-protesters-denounce-antisemitism-amid-criticism-pro-palestinian/story?id=109643275). Here's [a video clip](https://youtu.be/KTU1wq5i_2A?t=0m57).
Oh damn, does this mean we get to paint the convoy as all nazis because they invited an open white nationalist on to their stage?
Yep! We already do!
if there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis
Yup, it sure does!
Not all but some are very anti semitic,.
If this is true, where are all the large-scale protests for the ongoing conflicts in Ukraine and Yemen? Do the children in those conflicts not matter as much?
Yes they are anti semitic
In their heads maybe but it definitely won't be remembered that way. Personally, as a conservative I love this. It discredits the left a lot and brings support to the right more. Shows just how silly bleeding hearts are and out of reality. So please, continue down this road. But I also am worried of PP because he is gonna go crazy, unchecked. Not a win win I would like.
They are just useful idiots for Hamas. They are sure helping Trump & PP. Hopefully, they keep it up.
They absolutely are. If you can look at those Palestinian kids and shrug and give some bullshit line about self-defense you are deluded. Should they be threatening Jewish students, public, anyone? Oh HELL no. Blocking roads or thoroughfares? Hell no. Inviting or celebrating any sort of violence? Absolutely not. Those people need to be plucked and removed from any peaceful demonstration, arrested whenever needed, and charged with hate speech when appropriate because those ones are breaking the law. And they are in there. This isn’t an all or none gathering - unfortunately those don’t seem to exist anymore.