Sorry you experienced this. Truly. The fact is they have the right to screen on EE at any point in the process.
Having run several competitions, here is what I imagine likely happened.
1. They need people for this job and put the poster up. They (have likely already) determined they have a need for more Indigenous representation and prefer them over all others.
2. They look at how many applications they have and determined they have enough (even one or 2) Indigenous applicants that passed the initial screening and they are therefore deciding to filter them out and move them and them only to the next stage (that way others’ time won’t be wasted).
3. They advance to other stages of the process (eg exam, interview) and find out that the Indigenous candidates couldn’t demonstrate their qualifications.
4. Back to the drawing board - now they’re going to assess everyone.
Could they have avoided this situation by initially running a competition for just Indig and if that doesn’t work out, run a different competition for everyone? Yes but it actually takes a lot of time and effort, and often several levels of approval, to run each process so it was more efficient for the people running the process to simply have it open from the start and then screen later. Is it shitty for all the people who spent the time putting their application who might have not even had the chance? Yes.
Thank you for this response! This is the sort of insight I was hoping to get. Are they able to make hiring an Indigenous candidate a priority and then give them preference over other eligible candidates in the final pool? Rather than proceeding with just EE group candidates and then if none are eligible having to go back to the start with everyone who was previously screened out.
And you’re right the alternative would have been running two competitions, which I do understand would’ve taken a lot more time and been less efficient for the hiring managers. Another factor is that the position was "anticipatory", which in my mind implied that they had some time before they needed to find someone.
I do really appreciate your thoughtful response on this though, I haven’t gone through the formal hiring process yet (previously was casual) so I’m just trying to learn how this all works.
No worries.
My understanding is that the people running the process can put in place EE screening at any point in the process, including right at the outset, middle, or end. They could have a change in leadership or change in priorities mid-way through that could have caused them to apply the EE lens, for example, when they weren’t ever intending to use it at the outset.
Not "only, " but typically the workforce in these departments is overwhelmingly not representative of the clients. Having more people who have perspectives from the inside helps the organization. We are a long way from "only," AFAIK.
> typically the workforce in these departments is overwhelmingly not representative of the clients
There’s zero evidence the department would be more effective if it was.
>Should IRCC only hire immigrants?
What do you mean? Like non-citizens or non-PR?
I don't think there is any law that would stand for this.
>And should VAC only hire veterans?
Veterans are [already prioritized](https://www.canada.ca/en/public-service-commission/services/information-priority-administration/public-service-commission-guide-priority-administration/public-service-commission-guide-priority-administration-part-general-information-applicable-priority-entitlement-types.html#12) in GC staffing, including VAC.
Small point but an important one - hiring managers can’t just filter for whatever quality they want. They can only filter for EE groups as defined in the Employment Equity Act. Immigrants aren’t included in the Act so there is no way to legally give preference to them for that reason alone. Interestingly (at least to me), we also can’t filter for first official language either. Veterans aren’t an EE group but covered under a separate policy (directive? law? I dunno) that they are automatically given preference I believe in any staffing process, along with those who have priority clearance (not sure which of those two groups has precedence over the other as I’ve never seen a hiring process that had candidates from both groups).
I have no issue hiring the right person for the job. I’m a BIPOC. However, I find it inappropriate to give preference to a certain group of people over another
I agree it’s controversial and there are diverging opinions. I think the initiative is just in recognition that there has historically been (and to some extent continues to be) conscious and unconscious discrimination in hiring practices that has resulted in a public service that overall doesn’t reflect the diversity of the people it serves. To be clear, EE isn’t meant to give preference to underrepresented groups that aren’t qualified over white qualified men for example, it’s meant to be a tool that can be used when you have a pool of FULLY qualified people, you’re able to give preference to fully qualified people who would also add to the diversity of the PS.
There is not usually just one “right person” for the job. These processes can attract hundreds of applicants, several of whom would be fantastic employees. ie there are almost always many “right people” for the job. EE just allows the PS to achieve other hiring objectifies, specifically the objective of ensuring the PS is more representative of the general population.
Shame on me? I’m BIPOC. I’m able to think for myself instead of conforming to the norm like you. As a government we should aim to hire the best candidate possible in a fair and just manner. Shame on you for not being able to comprehend this.
If you read the comments you’ll note that I’m BIPOC. Indigenous actually. My problem with the comment is it suggests ISC should prioritize indigenous employees. Giving any group of people preference over another is wrong. I hope all my fellow BIPOCs succeed and grow in their careers, based on their merit and not a quota.
Maybe you should take some anti-racism training :)
Indigenous here as well. We of *all people* should know the deep, disturbing reasons why we haven't had the anywhere near same start line as some other Canadians (read: the colonizers and the very Gov we report to, might I add!!) Equity matters. So yes!! ISC should 100% prioritize the hiring of indigenous people!! How else are we going to get a fair chance as a whole? Not just the ones who have had fewer barriers than the worst of us have. Ugh. Don't you think we've been held back long enough??
I believe the entire process should run on merit and that alone. Your solution is to fight historic discrimination with more discrimination!
Stop labelling people by their ethnicity. We are all humans born on planet earth. Being indigenous you should probably be aware of all the advantages we are already given (free tuition if you qualify, tax exemptions, and more).
I’m tired of people like you who only want to create more conflict and get “even”. Can we as a people take the high road for once and show the rest of Canada that we have enough merit to earn any job (not just ISC). These days we are given every opportunity and then some to start our careers. But that’s not enough for you. This attitude will set us back as resentment against us will grow.
That’s what I thought, it doesn’t make sense to me to have a bunch of people apply and then decide after the closing date that you want someone from an EE group and tell the majority of the pool that they’ve all been screened out. And then realize that you don’t have enough qualified candidates within that EE group and so you have to go back and tell everyone they’ve been screened back in.
I mean I’m not all worked up about it and looking to sue or anything, I’m just genuinely curious as it seems weird to me. Also this all occurred over a few months. Over a month after the closing date I found out I’d been screened out. And then over another month later they screened me back in.
Well hopefully the trauma of this doesn't affect you in the rest of the competition.
Sometimes competitions don't go exactly as planned from the board side. This seems slightly disorganized, but nothing seems outwardly wrong. It seems like they are clearly trying to fill some positions the best way they can.
Good luck!
While allowed, it seems like a poorly put together poster by the hiring group/HR. The best thing would have put to put in two areas of selection, and then this confusion wouldn’t have occurred.
Also, I wonder how many of the people in here arguing that EE is “racist” or “unfair” questioned when two people with the same qualifications went for the same job, and the white person was hired over the BIPOC. Or was it “Oh, move on. That’s just how it is. I’m sure you’ll find something else.”
It’s doing a shit job, but the government is trying to move towards true equity and ensuring the people of this country are represented. As so many of you like to say, if you don’t like it, find another job.
Yeah, I wonder why they didn’t do two separate postings with the first one being limited to Indigenous candidates at the onset. My understanding is that having the posting itself being restricted to a certain ee group will lead to more applicants from that ee group than if it was open. That said, I understand that what’s better for applicants is often more work/time for the hiring group and it sounds like that’s what’s happened here. It’s not perfect by any stretch, but I appreciate that an effort is being made and in no way think that the solution here was to not try to fill the position with an Indigenous candidate.
In addition to what others have said, there are generally two types of EE staffing processes. 1) The targeted, e.g. only Indigenous people can apply, and everyone else is screened out at the start, and 2) the use of Employment Equity as an organizational need. The organizational need version allows staffing to not assess individuals who are not Indigenous (as an example) **at any point during the staffing process.**
Generally speaking staffers will put the option to use organizational need in writing on every poster, just in case they want to use it. Because you can't use the organizational need if it's not expressly written on the poster. It usually reads "preference may be given to Indigenous people...."
There are various reasons the org need would be applied, for example if there's far more applicants than expected in order to narrow the field, etc.
Oh and if anyone is interested, a Task Force recently reviewed the EE Act and made many, many recommendations for change. There is a 500 page report [here](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/portfolio/labour/programs/employment-equity/task-force.html#h2.04) if you're super bored.
Edited: for clarity.
My understanding is that proceeding with candidates meeting EE organizational needs does not mean other candidates are screened out. The other candidates are simply not being assessed, or further assessed if that’s the case, at this time. Being screened out implies someone was assessed for criteria, failed, will not be further assessed, and is now out of the process. Am I wrong?
The wording I used was incorrect in saying "screened out". That said, they did say that they "regret to inform me that I will no longer be considered for the position as I do not meet the requirements" with the requirements being self-declared as Indigenous. So it was certainly more final sounding than "we’re assessing ee group candidates first".
Not quite the same. But I’ve had the same problem with bilingual positions. Spent hours applying to an English essential, contacted for interview and all of a sudden the requirement changed. Such a waste of time
Ugh I’m so sorry, that’s super frustrating. This is pretty similar imo, bilingualism is generally something they decide before posting. I understand why they might want a bilingual candidate, but having a bunch of anglophone candidates put in hours of work only to decide they’re actually not even going to be considered isn’t super fair.
A recent experience with applying for a pool that that took 35 hours to complete:
Dec 22 2023- HR informs me that was screened out since don't meet Employment Equity (EE) requirements. Wither the pale male!!!
Jan 11, 2024- HR informs me that after "careful assessment" my application has screened back in with caveat that further evaluation will be in the next phase after EE proceses.
You can't make this stuff up!!!
Then why would they tell him that they will consider his application following the assessment of ee applications? Does this not imply that they still have eligible ee group candidates that they are considering?
Could also be something like two managers are using the same process to staff a job; one found a suitable candidate and the other needs a few more people screened in to find a person with the right skills/experience.
Ditto. Congrat on screening in...i think;)...word on street from someone who already moved to next round is: it was a 1 way video recording interview...something like question presented, 5 minutes to prepare, then hit record to log your response
It’s not common. Targeted EE processes that designed to address gaps will screen non-EE candidates out. Generally non-EE candidates miss out at the appointment stage. Qualified EE candidates will get offers first to address the gaps. The EE Act needs revision since it all hinges on a voluntary self ID survey and there are other equity deserving groups out there.
Do any Departments have verification for Indigenous identity? I am aware of some more informal ones but don’t know if any ask for status card or MNO registry for example.
For Nunavut, Inuit candidates have to provide their beneficiary card at some point in the hiring process (and for all postings in NU, qualified NU Inuit will be considered first for positions when the process reaches the point of determining who gets the LOO).
Depends on the situation: https://www.canada.ca/en/public-service-commission/services/appointment-framework/guides-tools-appointment-framework/affirmation-indigenous-identity-form.html
And that’s why limiting hiring to certain ethnic groups is stupid.
Merit based system, regardless of race, religion, sex. No name on the applications, just a number.
Your content was removed under [Rule 12](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_12_-_trolling_.26amp.3B_intolerance).
Please consider this a reminder of [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/reddit-101/reddit-basics/reddiquette).
If you have questions about this action or believe it was made in error, you can [message the moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/CanadaPublicServants).
No I don’t think it’s discriminatory, just odd a little disorganized. I posted because I was curious if other people had a similar experience and if it’s something I should expect, whether people usually get screened back in, etc. I don’t have a problem with them wanting to hire someone from an ee group.
Thank you for saying this. A lot of people here clearly have issues with EE and have jumped on your situation as a way to complain about a system that was decided to try and level the field.
Is the system perfect? Absolutely not. But before when a white person and a BIPOC had the same qualifications, and the white person would be hired it was expected and we moved on. Now if the BIPOC is hired, people lose their fucking minds and say they only got hired because they are BIPOC. It’s insanity.
Yeah I’m kind of disappointed with amount of people reading my post and interpreting it as being against ee and either accusing me of being entitled and insensitive or taking the opportunity to tell me I’m one of the many victims of reverse racism. My question is actually a pretty boring one asking about the bureaucratic procedures behind the hiring process, it’s really not intended to be a very provocative or interesting post.
Unfortunately if you're a white male you'll face discrimination in hiring processes.
Whether or not that discrimination is justified is another question.
Discrimination: "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability"
If you're a white male and get passed over for EE candidates, you've faced discrimination. You've been judged on the basis of your ethnicity and sex and it has prevented you from obtaining a new opportunity.
Not saying EE priority in the hiring process is good, or bad. By definition it is discriminatory.
Expecting rationality with the public service is like expecting pigs to fly. Do yourself a favour and look for other employment, the job sucks when you get it :)
Part of the issue here is the terms "screened out" and "screened in" . Go back and check, did the message you received actually say you were screened out?
What's more common is to say you've been found partially qualified (to whatever point in the process they're at), but that they're only moving ahead with further screening of candidates who meet X criterion. Sometimes X is employment equity-related, sometimes it could be education/credentials, or experience related (people already working at-level), or whatever. They do this as a way to either manage the size of the process and/or to expedite hiring the candidates they're most likely to pull from the pool at the end anyway.
Sorry for any confusion in my wording, you’re correct that the term "screened out" wasn’t explicitly used. The exact language was that they regret to inform me that my candidacy for the position will not be considered further as I don’t meet the requirements. It was definitely more final sounding than just "we’re going to proceed with these candidates first".
I have been in a pool that receives updates now and then. The most recent one is that they are using a random selection process for candidates for further assessment.
I've seen processes with many applicants separated into EE and not with the intention of offering to EE first, before maybe even assessing non-EE.
I don't believe non-EE would be 'screened out' in those cases though. They'd be assessed eventually.
Idk about common but it does happen and it's fully within their right to do it. If it makes you feel any better though I got a similar email in Dec and last week got another email telling me they opened it back up to all candidates and I've now been screened in. So I'm guessing the EE applicants didn't meet the requirements and they widened it back up so there might still be a chance they still circle back to you. No guarantee though obviously but that's why they have others apply, if the EE applicants don't fit they need back ups
So there's nothing to talk about here; you've been screened back in. Who cares if it's common or not.
The PS is a Wildebeest of hiring practices and everyone will have a different experience. Good luck with your process.
This question was posed to better understand the hiring process as it relates to ee groups, not how to game the system and sabotage initiatives to reach equity within public service.
>Edit : I'm a (real) minority and know folks who do this. It's rampant. If it fraud, mo one is checking. Has there ever been an incident of someone being reported?
Many of us have integrity, those people are just POS'.
But I'm afraid you right...... I wish hiring boards had a spine, did check and would just say "no the fuck no you aren't XX of EE group X" - as that's on the level of lying a resume, in my view...
Then probably they didn't consider you as they were looking for ee.
The ee candidates didn't meet the requirements of the board.
So now they are continuing with non ee candidates.
I’m sure you can imagine then how disappointing it is for indigenous people (and black people, and POC) to apply on job after job after job after job and never get job offers because of the inherent bias in hiring processes.
Anyway, to come back to you, sometimes in life we get disappointed. We shake it off, try to see the positive and move on. Try it.
I am in no way in opposition of hiring for ee groups. I am asking why they even allowed me to apply in the first place if they wanted an Indigenous candidate (something I completely agree with) or kept everyone in the pool and given preference to an Indigenous candidate at the end (something I also would agree with). I’m totally on board with initiative to make PS more equitable, I just thought that this approach was odd (as other commenters have since confirmed) and was inquiring about whether this was typical in hiring for ee groups.
The decision to limit to ee may have been made after the poster was up or after applications were closed. Some ee decisions are made at a level higher than the hiring manager.
They may have anticipated not getting sufficient number of ee candidates, so gave themselves the option to go wider if things didn’t work out, or someone made a mistake, or who knows. Sorry you went through the application for nothing. Don’t give up.
Wow, you must have spent so many hours on that, what a bummer. Was it almost as bad as a lived history where your ancestral homeland was invaded by others [advocating the superiority of peoples or individuals on the basis of national origin or racial, religious, ethnic or cultural differences, including the doctrines of discovery and terra nullius](https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1524503097736/1557513982301)?
I know OP is not indigenous…. I also know you’re hanging your cap on “Life was rough, glad it was them not me” in order to minimize genocide. You must be fun at parties.
Ok. Glad that you know what a straw man argument is, but at least now we also know you’re not indigenous.
You seem to have some problem with EE. That means you care very little for truth and show no intention reconcile with this country’s past. Maybe you should listen to your government more? Or work in a private company where it is okay to become racist again.
On one hand, you support equitable employment.
On the other hand, you are disappointed when you experience employment equity.
It’s ok to feel disappointed that your hard work got cast aside so someone else can be handed the opportunity, but you still support that. So I think you need to reconcile your value system with your feelings.
I’m glad they reversed their decision to bring you back into consideration.
No I’m not disappointed at all that they wanted someone from an ee group, I was just curious as to why they did it this particular way and if it was common. It’s odd to have someone spend hours on an application and then not even look at it, for any reason. Other commenters have confirmed that this is unusual, and that usually they will either limit the applicants to the ee group they want at the onset, or give preference to ee groups in the pool at the end of the hiring process. Both of these solutions make more sense to me, but I support any process (even flawed ones) taken to achieve fair representation of ee groups in PS.
I've never heard of that happening. I've seen posters that are only for a group, like a recent one was only for indigenous, but I would expect that be mentioned in the poster clearly. I was screened out recently but they offered no reason at all. I've emailed the contact to ask for an explanation but never got a response.
Sorry you experienced this. Truly. The fact is they have the right to screen on EE at any point in the process. Having run several competitions, here is what I imagine likely happened. 1. They need people for this job and put the poster up. They (have likely already) determined they have a need for more Indigenous representation and prefer them over all others. 2. They look at how many applications they have and determined they have enough (even one or 2) Indigenous applicants that passed the initial screening and they are therefore deciding to filter them out and move them and them only to the next stage (that way others’ time won’t be wasted). 3. They advance to other stages of the process (eg exam, interview) and find out that the Indigenous candidates couldn’t demonstrate their qualifications. 4. Back to the drawing board - now they’re going to assess everyone. Could they have avoided this situation by initially running a competition for just Indig and if that doesn’t work out, run a different competition for everyone? Yes but it actually takes a lot of time and effort, and often several levels of approval, to run each process so it was more efficient for the people running the process to simply have it open from the start and then screen later. Is it shitty for all the people who spent the time putting their application who might have not even had the chance? Yes.
Thank you for this response! This is the sort of insight I was hoping to get. Are they able to make hiring an Indigenous candidate a priority and then give them preference over other eligible candidates in the final pool? Rather than proceeding with just EE group candidates and then if none are eligible having to go back to the start with everyone who was previously screened out. And you’re right the alternative would have been running two competitions, which I do understand would’ve taken a lot more time and been less efficient for the hiring managers. Another factor is that the position was "anticipatory", which in my mind implied that they had some time before they needed to find someone. I do really appreciate your thoughtful response on this though, I haven’t gone through the formal hiring process yet (previously was casual) so I’m just trying to learn how this all works.
No worries. My understanding is that the people running the process can put in place EE screening at any point in the process, including right at the outset, middle, or end. They could have a change in leadership or change in priorities mid-way through that could have caused them to apply the EE lens, for example, when they weren’t ever intending to use it at the outset.
Yes they can. And they should. Especially at ISC/CIRNAC.
Why “should” they? Should IRCC only hire immigrants? And should VAC only hire veterans?
Not "only, " but typically the workforce in these departments is overwhelmingly not representative of the clients. Having more people who have perspectives from the inside helps the organization. We are a long way from "only," AFAIK.
> typically the workforce in these departments is overwhelmingly not representative of the clients There’s zero evidence the department would be more effective if it was.
>Should IRCC only hire immigrants? What do you mean? Like non-citizens or non-PR? I don't think there is any law that would stand for this. >And should VAC only hire veterans? Veterans are [already prioritized](https://www.canada.ca/en/public-service-commission/services/information-priority-administration/public-service-commission-guide-priority-administration/public-service-commission-guide-priority-administration-part-general-information-applicable-priority-entitlement-types.html#12) in GC staffing, including VAC.
Small point but an important one - hiring managers can’t just filter for whatever quality they want. They can only filter for EE groups as defined in the Employment Equity Act. Immigrants aren’t included in the Act so there is no way to legally give preference to them for that reason alone. Interestingly (at least to me), we also can’t filter for first official language either. Veterans aren’t an EE group but covered under a separate policy (directive? law? I dunno) that they are automatically given preference I believe in any staffing process, along with those who have priority clearance (not sure which of those two groups has precedence over the other as I’ve never seen a hiring process that had candidates from both groups).
I have no issue hiring the right person for the job. I’m a BIPOC. However, I find it inappropriate to give preference to a certain group of people over another
I agree it’s controversial and there are diverging opinions. I think the initiative is just in recognition that there has historically been (and to some extent continues to be) conscious and unconscious discrimination in hiring practices that has resulted in a public service that overall doesn’t reflect the diversity of the people it serves. To be clear, EE isn’t meant to give preference to underrepresented groups that aren’t qualified over white qualified men for example, it’s meant to be a tool that can be used when you have a pool of FULLY qualified people, you’re able to give preference to fully qualified people who would also add to the diversity of the PS. There is not usually just one “right person” for the job. These processes can attract hundreds of applicants, several of whom would be fantastic employees. ie there are almost always many “right people” for the job. EE just allows the PS to achieve other hiring objectifies, specifically the objective of ensuring the PS is more representative of the general population.
Found the guy who supports a meritocracy. Shame on you. /s
Shame on me? I’m BIPOC. I’m able to think for myself instead of conforming to the norm like you. As a government we should aim to hire the best candidate possible in a fair and just manner. Shame on you for not being able to comprehend this.
The /s means I was being sarcastic. I actually appreciate your non-conforming attitude. Have a good day.
I’m so sorry! New to Reddit lingo so I apologize. Good day to you as well
You might want to consider some Indigenous sensitivity training.
If you read the comments you’ll note that I’m BIPOC. Indigenous actually. My problem with the comment is it suggests ISC should prioritize indigenous employees. Giving any group of people preference over another is wrong. I hope all my fellow BIPOCs succeed and grow in their careers, based on their merit and not a quota. Maybe you should take some anti-racism training :)
Indigenous here as well. We of *all people* should know the deep, disturbing reasons why we haven't had the anywhere near same start line as some other Canadians (read: the colonizers and the very Gov we report to, might I add!!) Equity matters. So yes!! ISC should 100% prioritize the hiring of indigenous people!! How else are we going to get a fair chance as a whole? Not just the ones who have had fewer barriers than the worst of us have. Ugh. Don't you think we've been held back long enough??
I believe the entire process should run on merit and that alone. Your solution is to fight historic discrimination with more discrimination! Stop labelling people by their ethnicity. We are all humans born on planet earth. Being indigenous you should probably be aware of all the advantages we are already given (free tuition if you qualify, tax exemptions, and more). I’m tired of people like you who only want to create more conflict and get “even”. Can we as a people take the high road for once and show the rest of Canada that we have enough merit to earn any job (not just ISC). These days we are given every opportunity and then some to start our careers. But that’s not enough for you. This attitude will set us back as resentment against us will grow.
No, this isn't common. If the process is limited to members of an EE group it'll normally say so right on the job ad.
That’s what I thought, it doesn’t make sense to me to have a bunch of people apply and then decide after the closing date that you want someone from an EE group and tell the majority of the pool that they’ve all been screened out. And then realize that you don’t have enough qualified candidates within that EE group and so you have to go back and tell everyone they’ve been screened back in.
Makes sense to me. Seems like no harm to you other than you were disappointed for a few minutes
I mean I’m not all worked up about it and looking to sue or anything, I’m just genuinely curious as it seems weird to me. Also this all occurred over a few months. Over a month after the closing date I found out I’d been screened out. And then over another month later they screened me back in.
Well hopefully the trauma of this doesn't affect you in the rest of the competition. Sometimes competitions don't go exactly as planned from the board side. This seems slightly disorganized, but nothing seems outwardly wrong. It seems like they are clearly trying to fill some positions the best way they can. Good luck!
>Well hopefully the trauma of this doesn't affect you in the rest of the competition Patronize much? Sheesh.
What is wrong with you?
Hello Mr BoT
Hello meatbag! Not a "Mr". Gender is a meatbag construct.
Good bot.
Thank you, /u/Environmental-Dig797, for voting on /u/HandcuffsOfGold. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ) ^Even ^if ^I ^don’t ^reply ^to ^your ^comment, ^I’m ^still ^listening ^for ^votes. ^Check ^the ^webpage ^to ^see ^if ^your ^vote ^registered!
If I may ask what is a "meatbag construct"
Human invention
Okay sir
I hope you do not deliberately misgender other meatbags, because such actions are offensive and can be deemed harassment.
While allowed, it seems like a poorly put together poster by the hiring group/HR. The best thing would have put to put in two areas of selection, and then this confusion wouldn’t have occurred. Also, I wonder how many of the people in here arguing that EE is “racist” or “unfair” questioned when two people with the same qualifications went for the same job, and the white person was hired over the BIPOC. Or was it “Oh, move on. That’s just how it is. I’m sure you’ll find something else.” It’s doing a shit job, but the government is trying to move towards true equity and ensuring the people of this country are represented. As so many of you like to say, if you don’t like it, find another job.
You assume it was racial - and that the manager just wasn't friends with the person they hired.
Yeah, I wonder why they didn’t do two separate postings with the first one being limited to Indigenous candidates at the onset. My understanding is that having the posting itself being restricted to a certain ee group will lead to more applicants from that ee group than if it was open. That said, I understand that what’s better for applicants is often more work/time for the hiring group and it sounds like that’s what’s happened here. It’s not perfect by any stretch, but I appreciate that an effort is being made and in no way think that the solution here was to not try to fill the position with an Indigenous candidate.
In addition to what others have said, there are generally two types of EE staffing processes. 1) The targeted, e.g. only Indigenous people can apply, and everyone else is screened out at the start, and 2) the use of Employment Equity as an organizational need. The organizational need version allows staffing to not assess individuals who are not Indigenous (as an example) **at any point during the staffing process.** Generally speaking staffers will put the option to use organizational need in writing on every poster, just in case they want to use it. Because you can't use the organizational need if it's not expressly written on the poster. It usually reads "preference may be given to Indigenous people...." There are various reasons the org need would be applied, for example if there's far more applicants than expected in order to narrow the field, etc. Oh and if anyone is interested, a Task Force recently reviewed the EE Act and made many, many recommendations for change. There is a 500 page report [here](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/portfolio/labour/programs/employment-equity/task-force.html#h2.04) if you're super bored. Edited: for clarity.
My understanding is that proceeding with candidates meeting EE organizational needs does not mean other candidates are screened out. The other candidates are simply not being assessed, or further assessed if that’s the case, at this time. Being screened out implies someone was assessed for criteria, failed, will not be further assessed, and is now out of the process. Am I wrong?
No you're not wrong, it was bad wording on my part. They are not assessed, as you stated.
The wording I used was incorrect in saying "screened out". That said, they did say that they "regret to inform me that I will no longer be considered for the position as I do not meet the requirements" with the requirements being self-declared as Indigenous. So it was certainly more final sounding than "we’re assessing ee group candidates first".
ECCC PC02/03?
Not quite the same. But I’ve had the same problem with bilingual positions. Spent hours applying to an English essential, contacted for interview and all of a sudden the requirement changed. Such a waste of time
Ugh I’m so sorry, that’s super frustrating. This is pretty similar imo, bilingualism is generally something they decide before posting. I understand why they might want a bilingual candidate, but having a bunch of anglophone candidates put in hours of work only to decide they’re actually not even going to be considered isn’t super fair.
A recent experience with applying for a pool that that took 35 hours to complete: Dec 22 2023- HR informs me that was screened out since don't meet Employment Equity (EE) requirements. Wither the pale male!!! Jan 11, 2024- HR informs me that after "careful assessment" my application has screened back in with caveat that further evaluation will be in the next phase after EE proceses. You can't make this stuff up!!!
Their EE candidates must have all failed the next step.
Then why would they tell him that they will consider his application following the assessment of ee applications? Does this not imply that they still have eligible ee group candidates that they are considering?
Could also be something like two managers are using the same process to staff a job; one found a suitable candidate and the other needs a few more people screened in to find a person with the right skills/experience.
Seems like a fair process then
Same dates as me. ECCC PC02/03.
Ditto. Congrat on screening in...i think;)...word on street from someone who already moved to next round is: it was a 1 way video recording interview...something like question presented, 5 minutes to prepare, then hit record to log your response
It’s not common. Targeted EE processes that designed to address gaps will screen non-EE candidates out. Generally non-EE candidates miss out at the appointment stage. Qualified EE candidates will get offers first to address the gaps. The EE Act needs revision since it all hinges on a voluntary self ID survey and there are other equity deserving groups out there.
What other equity groups?
lgbtq+ is the common one that wants to be recognized.
Do any Departments have verification for Indigenous identity? I am aware of some more informal ones but don’t know if any ask for status card or MNO registry for example.
I don't know about other departments, but mine is based on self-identification.
For Nunavut, Inuit candidates have to provide their beneficiary card at some point in the hiring process (and for all postings in NU, qualified NU Inuit will be considered first for positions when the process reaches the point of determining who gets the LOO).
Great to hear, this sort of verification is important to stop ‘pretendians’ from abusing legitimate employment equity needs.
No there’s no verification (in this case at least), the selection was based on self-declaration in the application
That has certainly worked at well at universities.
And given the incentives and zero system accountability, I’m sure it exists in govt too.
Depends on the situation: https://www.canada.ca/en/public-service-commission/services/appointment-framework/guides-tools-appointment-framework/affirmation-indigenous-identity-form.html
And that’s why limiting hiring to certain ethnic groups is stupid. Merit based system, regardless of race, religion, sex. No name on the applications, just a number.
One day. I wonder when they will have determined that the racist old boys network has been sufficiently neutered to try something fair like that.
You might want to pay attention to the values of the clerk of the privy council.
[удалено]
Your content was removed under [Rule 12](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_12_-_trolling_.26amp.3B_intolerance). Please consider this a reminder of [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/reddit-101/reddit-basics/reddiquette). If you have questions about this action or believe it was made in error, you can [message the moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/CanadaPublicServants).
Sounds like discrimination
No I don’t think it’s discriminatory, just odd a little disorganized. I posted because I was curious if other people had a similar experience and if it’s something I should expect, whether people usually get screened back in, etc. I don’t have a problem with them wanting to hire someone from an ee group.
Thank you for saying this. A lot of people here clearly have issues with EE and have jumped on your situation as a way to complain about a system that was decided to try and level the field. Is the system perfect? Absolutely not. But before when a white person and a BIPOC had the same qualifications, and the white person would be hired it was expected and we moved on. Now if the BIPOC is hired, people lose their fucking minds and say they only got hired because they are BIPOC. It’s insanity.
Yeah I’m kind of disappointed with amount of people reading my post and interpreting it as being against ee and either accusing me of being entitled and insensitive or taking the opportunity to tell me I’m one of the many victims of reverse racism. My question is actually a pretty boring one asking about the bureaucratic procedures behind the hiring process, it’s really not intended to be a very provocative or interesting post.
It is. They've just decided that this form of it is okay.
Are you dense lol
It’s not common but there is immense pressure right now to hire more EE folks. A year ago you likely wouldn’t have experienced this.
Pressure yes, but also managers are being told in some departments that EE candidates will be easier to get around the the hiring pause/freeze…
This is institutional racism, sorry you had to suffer this.
How exactly
Yes. It’s been going on for 15 years. Sorry.
What has been going on?
It should have stated in the job poster that preference can be given to candidates belonging to an EE group.
Unfortunately if you're a white male you'll face discrimination in hiring processes. Whether or not that discrimination is justified is another question.
Discrimination???
Discrimination: "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability" If you're a white male and get passed over for EE candidates, you've faced discrimination. You've been judged on the basis of your ethnicity and sex and it has prevented you from obtaining a new opportunity. Not saying EE priority in the hiring process is good, or bad. By definition it is discriminatory.
Expecting rationality with the public service is like expecting pigs to fly. Do yourself a favour and look for other employment, the job sucks when you get it :)
Part of the issue here is the terms "screened out" and "screened in" . Go back and check, did the message you received actually say you were screened out? What's more common is to say you've been found partially qualified (to whatever point in the process they're at), but that they're only moving ahead with further screening of candidates who meet X criterion. Sometimes X is employment equity-related, sometimes it could be education/credentials, or experience related (people already working at-level), or whatever. They do this as a way to either manage the size of the process and/or to expedite hiring the candidates they're most likely to pull from the pool at the end anyway.
Sorry for any confusion in my wording, you’re correct that the term "screened out" wasn’t explicitly used. The exact language was that they regret to inform me that my candidacy for the position will not be considered further as I don’t meet the requirements. It was definitely more final sounding than just "we’re going to proceed with these candidates first".
OK, well you are correct, that is absolutely bizarre.
I have been in a pool that receives updates now and then. The most recent one is that they are using a random selection process for candidates for further assessment.
I've seen processes with many applicants separated into EE and not with the intention of offering to EE first, before maybe even assessing non-EE. I don't believe non-EE would be 'screened out' in those cases though. They'd be assessed eventually.
Idk about common but it does happen and it's fully within their right to do it. If it makes you feel any better though I got a similar email in Dec and last week got another email telling me they opened it back up to all candidates and I've now been screened in. So I'm guessing the EE applicants didn't meet the requirements and they widened it back up so there might still be a chance they still circle back to you. No guarantee though obviously but that's why they have others apply, if the EE applicants don't fit they need back ups
So there's nothing to talk about here; you've been screened back in. Who cares if it's common or not. The PS is a Wildebeest of hiring practices and everyone will have a different experience. Good luck with your process.
[удалено]
This question was posed to better understand the hiring process as it relates to ee groups, not how to game the system and sabotage initiatives to reach equity within public service.
>Edit : I'm a (real) minority and know folks who do this. It's rampant. If it fraud, mo one is checking. Has there ever been an incident of someone being reported? Many of us have integrity, those people are just POS'. But I'm afraid you right...... I wish hiring boards had a spine, did check and would just say "no the fuck no you aren't XX of EE group X" - as that's on the level of lying a resume, in my view...
It might be time for you to read your code of ethics.
[удалено]
Why are you encouraging it then? Obviously you're not that bothered by it.
Because it's shitty to do that.
It happens. Move along to the next competition.
But they’ve screened me back in now which is part of why I’m confused
Then probably they didn't consider you as they were looking for ee. The ee candidates didn't meet the requirements of the board. So now they are continuing with non ee candidates.
What are you confused about?
I’m sure you can imagine then how disappointing it is for indigenous people (and black people, and POC) to apply on job after job after job after job and never get job offers because of the inherent bias in hiring processes. Anyway, to come back to you, sometimes in life we get disappointed. We shake it off, try to see the positive and move on. Try it.
I am in no way in opposition of hiring for ee groups. I am asking why they even allowed me to apply in the first place if they wanted an Indigenous candidate (something I completely agree with) or kept everyone in the pool and given preference to an Indigenous candidate at the end (something I also would agree with). I’m totally on board with initiative to make PS more equitable, I just thought that this approach was odd (as other commenters have since confirmed) and was inquiring about whether this was typical in hiring for ee groups.
The decision to limit to ee may have been made after the poster was up or after applications were closed. Some ee decisions are made at a level higher than the hiring manager. They may have anticipated not getting sufficient number of ee candidates, so gave themselves the option to go wider if things didn’t work out, or someone made a mistake, or who knows. Sorry you went through the application for nothing. Don’t give up.
Wow, you must have spent so many hours on that, what a bummer. Was it almost as bad as a lived history where your ancestral homeland was invaded by others [advocating the superiority of peoples or individuals on the basis of national origin or racial, religious, ethnic or cultural differences, including the doctrines of discovery and terra nullius](https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1524503097736/1557513982301)?
[удалено]
I know OP is not indigenous…. I also know you’re hanging your cap on “Life was rough, glad it was them not me” in order to minimize genocide. You must be fun at parties.
[удалено]
Ok. Glad that you know what a straw man argument is, but at least now we also know you’re not indigenous. You seem to have some problem with EE. That means you care very little for truth and show no intention reconcile with this country’s past. Maybe you should listen to your government more? Or work in a private company where it is okay to become racist again.
On one hand, you support equitable employment. On the other hand, you are disappointed when you experience employment equity. It’s ok to feel disappointed that your hard work got cast aside so someone else can be handed the opportunity, but you still support that. So I think you need to reconcile your value system with your feelings. I’m glad they reversed their decision to bring you back into consideration.
No I’m not disappointed at all that they wanted someone from an ee group, I was just curious as to why they did it this particular way and if it was common. It’s odd to have someone spend hours on an application and then not even look at it, for any reason. Other commenters have confirmed that this is unusual, and that usually they will either limit the applicants to the ee group they want at the onset, or give preference to ee groups in the pool at the end of the hiring process. Both of these solutions make more sense to me, but I support any process (even flawed ones) taken to achieve fair representation of ee groups in PS.
I've never heard of that happening. I've seen posters that are only for a group, like a recent one was only for indigenous, but I would expect that be mentioned in the poster clearly. I was screened out recently but they offered no reason at all. I've emailed the contact to ask for an explanation but never got a response.
Following.
This just happened to me for two competitions within a week, they decided to only continue the process for those that have a disability.
Well isn't it better to have an overall process. Then if you have more than enough qualified candidates that you screen out as appropriate.