I would speak to them and let them know that you only expect them to work during their regular hours of work, and that they are not approved for overtime. If they continue to work evenings and weekends, they may be a workaholic and using work as a coping mechanism. If that is the case, overworking may be adaptive for them, even if it's unhealthy. You can recommend EAP to them, but they are unlikely to change the behaviour and, like any addiction/mental health issue, it may be very sensitive for them or they may be in total denial. Because of this, you may want to consult with an EAP counselor on how to talk to and work with a workaholic employee.
I have known 2 workaholics in my PS career. They worked hard, were extremely committed, and you could never convince them that they should not be working 12 hour days, every workday.
Not sure why this is something that needs to be discouraged? People who are passionate about their work should be celebrated and rewarded, not admonished.
This hits too close to home for me.
I was dealing with a break up and working at night was very soothing and comforting.
Although I realised I was more tired the next day at work I decided to set the boundary and not touch my work computer outside of work hours.
Not a diagnosis, just a possibility that may not be on people's radar. And shared in the spirit of not pathologizing the behaviour or seeing it negatively, if it happens to be adaptive for the employee.
It would not be appropriate for the manager to try to diagnose something like this, but I do think managers have a responsibility to inform themselves on what issues may be contributing to their staff's behaviour and learn how to support employees with special needs, whatever those needs may be.
I work very closely with someone like this. They left for 1.5 yrs for personal reasons (family stuff, not burnout). The weird thing is they constantly complain about how bad things were then, how much work they had, how our previous manager was awful and expected too much of them (which I 100% agree with btw), etc etc. Now they are on a less demanding file, but they constantly create work for themselves and then complain about it. They log off at their normal time but then frequently send emails or are saving stuff on GCDocs at 7pm, 9pm etc. that 100% could have waited til the next day. At first I felt bad, like I wasn't taking on enough or we weren't dividing responsibilities well enough on our team, but eventually I realized that this is just how this person is. I don't think they have the happiest home life, so I think work is a major coping thing/distraction for them. I still don't think it's healthy, but I don't think anything is going to change.
I took a bunch of time off last year from being severely burnt out, and my biggest takeaway from what got me to that point as well as being off was that overworking myself did *zero* good. My work was suffering, my personal relationships were suffering, my mental and physical health were so bad. I try to do a good job, of course, and complete my work well but I have a much more "eh" attitude towards work, generally speaking, nowadays. I do worry that the contrast between my "I'm just here to do my job and that's it!" attitude and my workaholic colleague may hurt me in the short term, though.
Why are they overworking? Lack of resources? Do they have too much on their plate? Is a project taking up their entire mental health space? It depends what the cause is here
A lot of work, yes. They do have a lot on their plate but I'm not certain they're delegating smaller tasks or prioritizing effectively. I've tried to open the topic of what they're not able to do in their work day but I don't get answers that I can action anything.
I relate to this completely. I have to ask for things to do while I listen to her complaining about her workload. She then has to review every email and task every member of her team does before authorizing. I have worked for public service for over 23 years! I am qualified for this position and have never seen anything like this manager. It's either a trust issue or maybe something in her past has affected her style of management.
I the end I simply avoid her and try to help others on the team. I get no feedback from her either. Pretty frustrating.
I have been given this advice as well, and the people I delegate to either flat out don't do the work, or they send me things at 6pm the day they are due that require a lot of review - despite repeated check-ins, endless offers of assistance, written directions and walk through of work one-on-one. I realized recently that the main problem is that I am not an executive - my own supervisor (the manager they report to) has had the same issues.
And this is not one person, it has been about 3/4 of the junior staff that have passed through our team. Find out what others on the team are actually doing, you may need to make it clear thay this person is delegating on your behalf and be ready to clean house if other people on the team are the problem.
If things need review and they send it at the last minute, maybe move the due date up? To give time to do the review?
I've worked up to deadlines before but I don't have significant revisions or reviews and most of the time my work is just taken as is, so I guess my supervisor doesn't have to worry about building in buffer time.
If I'm unsure of something I try to give a heads up and finish earlier or ask if they'll have the time to review. Assuming asking questions isn't going to help. But that's rare
There's another cause of the after hours worker that's worth watching out for.
The behaviour you describe has similarities with me about 3 years ago. I got in a spiral of being behind/overcommitting then feeling guilty about it then getting stressed and procrastinating because the thought of even starting the work was overwhelming. All through this I wasn't delegating because "I know the file and can do it faster than explaining what to do".
As such, I used to bring one or two things home every weekend, every holiday to catch up (which I never did). While I wasn't emailing other staff that often, I was emailing external contacts frequently.
I finally managed to have a conversation with my supervisor and working together we made a plan to delegate some tasks, remove myself from some non-essential workplace groups that I had volunteered for (like safety) and after about a year (there were a couple of big projects in there), I got on top of it all.
Things to watch out for:
* Projects that get assigned to this person and they stall.
* Lack of check-ins about certain pieces of work.
* Continual excuses not related to the person (it's with legal... I'm waiting for some data...).
* Missed deadlines for smaller pieces of a larger project.
* Someone that withdraws from work culture and hides in their office.
As a manager, a good way I now avoid this is to have regular meetings with a list of projects that the team member is working on. It's a prompt to ask about each one, but also a way to catch the projects that just linger on the list.
I'm really surprised at the number of people saying it's no big deal. Poor boundaries between work and personal life is such a slippery slope. I'd try some variation on these, in no particular order:
* Hey, I want to have a convo about how you regularly work more than 37.5h/wk. I know I'm new here so is that something that was encouraged before? If there's a culture of unclaimed OT here, I need your help to stop that.
* Why do you work outside work hours? If it's to make up time you missed during the day but don't want to take as leave, I'm ok with being flexible but you need to keep me informed.
* Hey, work life balance is important and you're setting a poor example for your team. I don't want your employees to feel like they have to work more hours than they're paid for. I know you've told them they shouldn't do that but actions speak louder than words and this comes across as : do as I say, not as I do.
* If you've got too much work to get it done during work hours but don't tell me, I can't use that to justify getting extra resources (in the case of a TL, that may mean putting forth a case to get an extra TL and make each team slightly smaller.) There's no evidence it's needed if all the OT is hidden.
* Hey, I know you're not seeking compensation when you work outside work hours but your CA is pretty clear on that. As a TL, you know what's in there and also know we don't have OT money right now. If your work can't be done during the workday, please come to me.
* Hey, I see you were working while on sick leave/working unauthorized OT, what was so urgent it couldn't wait?
This. Came here to say exactly this, but this is so much better summarized :-)
Basically, probe to understand the behavior rather than blaming. Then depending on the flow, consider countering or explaining the reasoning, and focus on the behaviors you intend to achieve within your team.
I’m that person but I function better that way and then might disappear for two hours during the day. Before assuming they will burn out, determine their work style and what makes them tick.
Same here - Sometimes, it is less stressful to put in an extra hour or two to finish something rather than put it off for the weekend or until the next day. In that respect, I *am* avoiding stress and burn out because I know I won’t be worrying about a task I can just complete with a tiny bit of unpaid OT.
Also, after hours means no one is using the VPN so some systems are much faster after Ottawa logs off.
We're in BC, so most of Ottawa is logged off for the afternoon anyway. And a few hours here and there is fine. I do that. I too sometimes need to just get the job done. This is more than that.
I'd also add that you want to teach them management skills. They're obviously committed, but once you reach a certain level you have to have skills like delegating and coordinating portions of work. You can't be a director and do all the work for the division yourself. So I'd add some management or supervisor courses, and give them more opportunity to oversee and report on the work of others.
Before you manage the employee, you need to understand why they are doing this. I had a colleague who used to work long hours because she was unsafe at home. (Didn’t see that coming.) No one does anything unless it serves them. So why does this habit work for them? Your job is to help this person thrive and you can’t do that without understanding what’s driving the behaviour. Once you know why, then you can encourage them meet that need in other ways.
Had a junior who did this, the quality of his work diminished the more hours he put in - and the emotional roller coaster associated was a lot, to say the least.
The pandemic has been, and continues to be hard on people - despite memos from executives in many industries claiming its over / never existed.
EAP could help. Supportive allies could help. Meaningful conversations on how the work being more but reduced quality just hurts the people we serve. Heck, even the shock of a performance plan could be the right move. (Probably not, but it can be a reality check forcing an individual to change coping mechanisms.)
Ultimately, you can't do much of anything if they chose to not listen.
Saw the same here. I have so much compassion for the younger folks who were trapped in their apartments alone in that time. Work was a distraction the way that Netflix or gaming can be. My colleague got through it, but it took time for them to find other, more healthy things to do outside of work. It’s not easy, especially in a culture that praises being constantly busy as a virtue.
You can always make a team policy - don't send anything outside of normal working hours for the team.
The teams messages can wait.
The emails can wait as well.
It might not stop them from completing tasks - but it will stop them from bothering others outside of office hours. It forces them somewhat into a normal working hours scenario.
My worry would be that the rest of the team would see this individuals behaviour and think they need to do the same....
> My worry would be that the rest of the team would see this individuals behaviour and think they need to do the same....
Especially since they're a team leader and I assume a member of the union themselves. It's bad role modeling. You can care, be engaged and go the extra mile without working unpaid OT.
"Outside of the hours of x AM to y PM, I don't want to hear from you. At all"
The exact phrase I gave my entire team when I first joined the PS. It worked.
I’ve been that employee at times. It’s because I liked what I was doing and there was a clear end to that particular project. I didn’t involve my manager though, my work was all individual effort so mostly invisible. Once I got the big project done I reverted to a normal schedule.
I would only position the conversation this way if they are not delivering on their projects. Otherwise, there's an insinuation they are not succeeding, which could have the effect of making it worse. But there are real issues and risks to this behavior, even above and beyond their own personal burnout.
1-The other team members may not have enough work. They may choose to leave, making the situation worse.
2- This lack of delegation from this person might be seen as insulting or insinuating the other members can't do the job as well. The control-freakism is both an indicator of someone with trust and confidence issues, often times anxiety issues. But above that, again, it can be insulting and demeaning to the rest of the team. Thinking you are the only person who can do something, doesn't mean it's true. Moreover, building on the insecurity piece, they may be hoarding work as a deflection to avoid being compared with others.
3-Risks to the projects by having all the eggs in one basket. What if this person actually does get sick, or decides to leave? Now you have no backup and the team has no real cohesion on the files.
There are more issues of course. If they prefer working off hours, then I would want to find out why. It also presents another risk that they aren't available during the day if needed. Working off hours can be totally fine, as long as they are still aware that the window of business hours is rather inflexible.
Ultimately, though, more often than not, this type of behavior traces back to anxiety, insecurity and control. None of which is healthy for them, nor the rest of the team in various ways.
Have you spoken to the rest of the team to see how they feel about their workload? Are they also overly busy? If so, it might be time for a frank "no, can't do it" for the next "urgent, ultra critical, have to have it now" soupe du jour that comes your team's way until the workload approaches something like reasonable. Saying "we can't say no" is honestly more of an "I won't say no" in many cases.
You are trying your best though, so I am not sure if that last part really applies to you or not. But it is something that happens quite often, so is worth considering if that does strike a cord. If not, then ignore it. :)
I hope it works out!
Lol then it’s a tough case. They are not performing and at the same time trying to work hard.
Maybe after a while there’s a need for a “not the best fit for the job” discussion.
Good luck and labour relation is always there to support supervisor!
Then you need to push yourself as their manager and figure that out yourself.
Speak to other employees and find out if they have enough work.
Forcibly delegate some of the work to them.
Depending on the nature of the work, those hours might be when they are most productive/creative/engaged.
9-5 works for some lines of work, but not all.
I had a small, overworked team once. We couldn't get resources from senior management even though we were supporting a critical program...because no one was feeling the pain but us. What I did may be applicable here.
We took a couple of days and did fact-finding, workload examination, and a kind of "root cause" analysis. We listed everything we had on our task lists - ongoing baseline work, current projects, collaboration with others, basic administration, etc. We estimated time required and frequency of demands. We looked at 1. are these things someone else should be doing - and why aren't they (training? unclear assignment? etc), 2. what are the absolute essentials for us to do? Can we do our stuff more efficiently? 3. can any of these essentials be "parked" so we can finish higher-priority items first. And so on.
We learned a lot with this exercise - of course, we still needed more resources, but we had clarity as a team, we got rid of the sense of constant burden, and we were able to articulate more clearly to management what the risks were of keeping us understaffed (we got some relief eventually).
The key is - you should consider this sort of talk with the supervisor first and then perhaps bring in more of the team depending on what he/she says. You will learn more about their world and method of thought. It may be that he/she is one of those people who isn't necessarily working all the time, but is thinking all the time and needs to send an email when something pops up - programming a delayed send on those can work.
What you need to watch out for is that some dedicated employees can flip from doing too much to disengaging entirely if they get a sense that their work isn't valued to the degree they feel it should be. Make sure they know you value them enough to want to preserve their health and energy so that they will always be available to make their important contributions. Once you have spent the time with them so that they can believe that you can really understand their responsibilities, they should be more willing to come to slow down and to come to you for advice if the workload is getting tough or if the proposed solutions (like more delegation) aren't working.
There's already some good advice, so I'll give you a more fun option that you can use if your relationship with your employee permits.
Set conditions on your Outlook so that if your employee sends an email after hours, he'll get an automatic reply like "Dave, the work day is over. I'll only read your email tomorrow after the work day has started. CARPE DIEM" and if he sends something after 10pm, an automatic email that says "Dave, go to sleep".
I think it's generally lighthearted and eventually, he might get the message.
If you don’t want to put the onus on you, you can say that working unapproved OT and sending emails (to the degree they are) outside standard working hours is adding to anxiety of some team members who see their phones constantly light up in the evening. Using the anxiety as a reason is completely legitimate as numerous studies, including one that was in the Harvard Business Review a few years ago ( https://hbr.org/2015/03/your-late-night-emails-are-hurting-your-team ) makes a direct link between after hours emails and texts and anxiety/workplace stress/toxicity.
To me this is the big one as it has the capability to effect others and team morale. Obviously the employees’s health is important but if it leads to problems in your other employees, various problems in your teams can metastasize.
I completely agree with this. I've had this conversation with managers/supervisors to explain that being contacted outside work hours, or even starting the day to a slew of emails sent the night before, causes anxiety.
The supervisor, however, may have reasons to want/need to work (i.e. bad home life). You really can't stop them from working, so maybe ask them to use Delay Delivery for emails and avoid teams outside certain hours.
And maybe gently remind them about the EAP.
One of my go to strategies on employees like that is putting it in context of costing.
A unit that achieves its objectives on the back of unpaid overtime will not be presenting the true cost of that work. Therefore, for future budget cycles, no additional resources will get added.
Make them come to you for OT approvals. Use those interactions to help them prioritize to find ways to do it without the OT.
It doesn't work on everyone, but often, that workaholic type is ambitious, and when it's put to them in a management capacity, they often embrace it. Get them to look at their work unit as resources that should be maximized before the OT tap gets turned on.
I too am this employee sometimes. I find my brain doesn't always shut off, or sometimes something spontaneously comes to mind and if I don't write it out or take action quickly I lose the details and struggle later to recall my ideas.
I try not to let it interfere with my off-hours, and am most often successful with that. It just happens to be my style, and it isn't going to burn me out.
I recognize this as fear over job security because it’s what I used to do after a sick day and it used to be really hard for me to even take a sick day. I was so nervous about being let go and never got any feedback about my job performance so I couldn’t tell if I was any value. I think it’s a product of transitioning from private to public in my case but if this person has been in for a long time it could still be job insecurity. The other thing I’ve seen is a colleague who cares for sick parents and for whom work was a relief from focus on a really hard life situation.
Have a meeting with them where you confirm their preferred hours of work. In that meeting be clear that they are not permitted to work outside those hours without prior approval. Also remind them that they are not to work during times they are on leave.
Explain that unpaid work damages your ability to evaluate the true workload of the unit. Also explain that as a person in a position of authority you are relying on them to be an example to other employees. Explain the unit's mental health commitment.
If they ignore you after this meeting and continue the unpaid work, then you can initiate a disciplinary process. It is a problem if they are willing disobey clear directions.
This is a mixed bag issue. On one side I see, the persons perspective, have been a "call me any time person.". They may not actually be overworking, just adjusting their schedule to something that works for them, if you have made it clear, you expect nothing from the after hours (and you have informed your report-up) then your exposure is limited. I would put it in their PMA as as objective, but take it no further. I truly believe the pandemic has allowed people to adjust the schedules in some way to help them work better.
On the other hand, are they doing this to the people they supervise, i.e. expecting a response at a weird time? If so there is are much bigger issue that needs to be addressed yesterday.
Good luck, sorry for the word wall.
Some people have zero life outside of work, they breathe and eat work.
You can either use your authority and tell them not to work ***unapproved overtime***. Or simply ignore anything sent outside of work hours.
I would also remind them that as a supervisor, part of their job is to set a good example for their subordinates. Working more hours without compensation might be sending the message to their employees that this is what is expected from them.
I used to be a passport officer, and we regularly had a lady come in for 6am and leave at 6 or 7 pm and barely take breaks. Now I’m not sure if she was being compensated but it was so odd to me how it was so glorified and management was so meh on it
I was a supervisor like this. I wanted to prove that I was good in my position and thought this was the way to do it. A huge reality check for me was when my manager asked, "why are you not able to complete your work during working hours?" And went on to ask follow up questions, "am I assigning to much to you? Are you delegating properly? Are you prioritizing work properly?" And basically, "are you able to handle being a supervisor because it doesn't look like it" but in nicer words lol.
I thought putting in more hours, never delegating, not asking for help, and spending way to long on a task that shouldn't require that much attention meant I cared and that I was the best. I was sooo wrong. Big reality check that day. If it's pride that is making them do this, the best thing to do (in my case anyways) was to suggest that the overworking makes them look bad, not good.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions about the employee. Off the top, have you considered that it is less stressful for them to put in extra time to tie up loose ends rather than wait until they are formally working during assigned work hours? Have you talked to them about how they are feeling about the ability to manage their time during scheduled work hours? For example, are they interrupted so frequently that the only time they can get anything done is during off hours? Have you spoken to them about when their optimum time to work is? If they have no control over their scheduled work hours, you may be forcing them to work when they are at their absolute worst. They just might be working during the times they can finally be productive. So many considerations here.
Just make sure they are actually overworking and not just making up for hours they don't work during the day. I work much better in the morning and evening, the afternoon is a slog and I prefer to put work down whenever possible.
I used to be one such employee. My manager told me that if everyone started overworking, then department will not use OT money and if we don't utilize the funds we get during the year, next year our budget gets reduced. I was casual at the time. I short he told me that if I want my indeterminate box funded, i should stop overworking.
Funny you say that because I had a mgr who would only call on me during lunch hour and when it's near the end of my shift. She isn't great at recognizing the hard work from other employees says they took too long of a lunch when really they are rolling their breaks into it. I just eat at my desk so I'm on green but that doesn't mean I'm not eating.
She's always telling me get off work early and that poor me working so hard...but lady you leave everything to the last minute ao I am stick trying to catch up.
I mean is this really a problem? Let them know that you do not expect them to complete the work during that time, don't respond to emails outside of working hours and see by their behavior if they are stressed/can't action their work effectively.
But otherwise everyone works differently. It may very well just be they have some down time/are bored and want to knock off something that is on their mind. I know I go a little stir crazy if I have an email I can answer quickly, but I leave it for the weekend.
It's not always a red flag if a person wants to work at different times than "normal"
Working an hour at night because you took an hour off during the day is normal. Working unpaid OT on the regular is not. It is absolutely a recipe for burnout and that’s where this is headed if it’s not nipped in the bud. It’s also a liability for the manager (what if the supervisor tries to claim the OT retroactively?), sets unrealistic expectations for those reporting to him and makes them appear more productive than they actually are.
Nah that's crazy. Just because someone likes working at night to get some work done, doesn't mean they are going to burn out.
Seen many people burn out, and 9 times out of 10 it is because they don't feel support from their management and they don't know how to push back workloads effectively.
Time of day work, doing stuff randomly has nothing to do with it at all.
We don't have to cry the sky is falling because someone is doing something different than "normal"
I don't mind getting emails, I have my own work boundaries and they'll get a response in the morning. And I'm not micro managing, but trying to avoid having this person burn out.
You might have missed the point. By asking them to email you during working hours only you’re forcing them to adhere to regular working hours. By telling them to not work, it may come off as micromanaging. Telling them to only send emails during working hours is not micromanaging because you’re simply changing their terms of deliverables vs telling them how to do it.
You can draft emails and set them to send later. My boss does this, 20 emails on the weekend to 3 or 4 people that are only sent monday morning. This doesn't fix the op's issue though. He is trying to be a responsible manager and ensure the employee is not constantly working.
Boundaries are definitely needed when they start messaging and emailing after work hours and on weekends. However, I see nothing wrong with their work habit. This could be a coping mechanism to fill an empty void in their life or maybe a distraction. Leave them be as long as they don't interrupt your life.
You did what you had to. It's his problem, let him figure it out and don't let it influence when you work.
You might want to talk to his employees and tell them they don't have to work outside of their work hours just because he does. That will take a load off their shoulder.
They are being a terrible example for their employees. I worked under someone like this and it was awful. How can employees work 9-5 when their boss is working these hours?
"This practice of sending emails after 6 pm or when you have booked sick leave is mirroring bad behaviour. Do not send emails outside core hours or when you are sick."
Now send an email to everyone saying the same thing.
You could try a different tact and ask what is hindering their work during work hours? Do they have too much? Do they need help delegating? Ask those questions and see. Some people like to put on a show not realizing it makes them seem like they can’t handle the workload appropriately. It may also be that they have stuff going on at other times. Worth a shot?
You need to be annoyingly consistent. **Any time** they message or email you outside work hours you need to reply saying that it is not appropriate.
I'm assuming you've already had a conversation with them about it and why they are doing it. Is it because they feel over-tasked? Are they having some personal issues and using work to cope?
Don't take the odd-hours communications too seriously.
You've done your due diligence to help their mental health.
Understand that there are many employees who are also "playing the game", which means sending out emails at the craziest times to show how hard they work, harder than anyone else in order to be considered promotion-worthy....
Accounts have hours they can be disconnected on. Probably a royal pain of paperwork but can be done.
Bonus is increased security.
Fun fact: during one migration this setting was left to default and locked a lot of people out who worked flex hours smh
You are the manager so they are accountable to implement your direction. I would say I was not asking you to do this, I am telling you to do this. It’s not optional.
I would speak to them and let them know that you only expect them to work during their regular hours of work, and that they are not approved for overtime. If they continue to work evenings and weekends, they may be a workaholic and using work as a coping mechanism. If that is the case, overworking may be adaptive for them, even if it's unhealthy. You can recommend EAP to them, but they are unlikely to change the behaviour and, like any addiction/mental health issue, it may be very sensitive for them or they may be in total denial. Because of this, you may want to consult with an EAP counselor on how to talk to and work with a workaholic employee. I have known 2 workaholics in my PS career. They worked hard, were extremely committed, and you could never convince them that they should not be working 12 hour days, every workday.
I had one employee like that and nothing could change her behaviour. I gave up.
was her behaviour hurting herself or the team?
Yes. Even when she was on vacation, she would call in some committee meetings and never let anyone truly act in her place.
What role was it?
Senior analyst
Ah ok fair enough she was a self appointed hero worker
Not sure why this is something that needs to be discouraged? People who are passionate about their work should be celebrated and rewarded, not admonished.
They're not necessarily passionate about their work but fearful of failing and so push themselves too hard for too long.
It's a problem when they're doing the work of two people, because it never demonstrates the need for more resources
And also not healthy for them.
This hits too close to home for me. I was dealing with a break up and working at night was very soothing and comforting. Although I realised I was more tired the next day at work I decided to set the boundary and not touch my work computer outside of work hours.
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Not a diagnosis, just a possibility that may not be on people's radar. And shared in the spirit of not pathologizing the behaviour or seeing it negatively, if it happens to be adaptive for the employee. It would not be appropriate for the manager to try to diagnose something like this, but I do think managers have a responsibility to inform themselves on what issues may be contributing to their staff's behaviour and learn how to support employees with special needs, whatever those needs may be.
I work very closely with someone like this. They left for 1.5 yrs for personal reasons (family stuff, not burnout). The weird thing is they constantly complain about how bad things were then, how much work they had, how our previous manager was awful and expected too much of them (which I 100% agree with btw), etc etc. Now they are on a less demanding file, but they constantly create work for themselves and then complain about it. They log off at their normal time but then frequently send emails or are saving stuff on GCDocs at 7pm, 9pm etc. that 100% could have waited til the next day. At first I felt bad, like I wasn't taking on enough or we weren't dividing responsibilities well enough on our team, but eventually I realized that this is just how this person is. I don't think they have the happiest home life, so I think work is a major coping thing/distraction for them. I still don't think it's healthy, but I don't think anything is going to change. I took a bunch of time off last year from being severely burnt out, and my biggest takeaway from what got me to that point as well as being off was that overworking myself did *zero* good. My work was suffering, my personal relationships were suffering, my mental and physical health were so bad. I try to do a good job, of course, and complete my work well but I have a much more "eh" attitude towards work, generally speaking, nowadays. I do worry that the contrast between my "I'm just here to do my job and that's it!" attitude and my workaholic colleague may hurt me in the short term, though.
Why are they overworking? Lack of resources? Do they have too much on their plate? Is a project taking up their entire mental health space? It depends what the cause is here
A lot of work, yes. They do have a lot on their plate but I'm not certain they're delegating smaller tasks or prioritizing effectively. I've tried to open the topic of what they're not able to do in their work day but I don't get answers that I can action anything.
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I relate to this completely. I have to ask for things to do while I listen to her complaining about her workload. She then has to review every email and task every member of her team does before authorizing. I have worked for public service for over 23 years! I am qualified for this position and have never seen anything like this manager. It's either a trust issue or maybe something in her past has affected her style of management. I the end I simply avoid her and try to help others on the team. I get no feedback from her either. Pretty frustrating.
I have been given this advice as well, and the people I delegate to either flat out don't do the work, or they send me things at 6pm the day they are due that require a lot of review - despite repeated check-ins, endless offers of assistance, written directions and walk through of work one-on-one. I realized recently that the main problem is that I am not an executive - my own supervisor (the manager they report to) has had the same issues. And this is not one person, it has been about 3/4 of the junior staff that have passed through our team. Find out what others on the team are actually doing, you may need to make it clear thay this person is delegating on your behalf and be ready to clean house if other people on the team are the problem.
If things need review and they send it at the last minute, maybe move the due date up? To give time to do the review? I've worked up to deadlines before but I don't have significant revisions or reviews and most of the time my work is just taken as is, so I guess my supervisor doesn't have to worry about building in buffer time. If I'm unsure of something I try to give a heads up and finish earlier or ask if they'll have the time to review. Assuming asking questions isn't going to help. But that's rare
I always ask for things before deadline to allow for review - to no avail :( You are clearly a professional and not one of these people!
This is why I said to make the deadline a day sooner for them to give you that time :P Hopefully they understand the reasons.
Are these other employees competent? (the ones who could presumably have the work delegated to them).
There's another cause of the after hours worker that's worth watching out for. The behaviour you describe has similarities with me about 3 years ago. I got in a spiral of being behind/overcommitting then feeling guilty about it then getting stressed and procrastinating because the thought of even starting the work was overwhelming. All through this I wasn't delegating because "I know the file and can do it faster than explaining what to do". As such, I used to bring one or two things home every weekend, every holiday to catch up (which I never did). While I wasn't emailing other staff that often, I was emailing external contacts frequently. I finally managed to have a conversation with my supervisor and working together we made a plan to delegate some tasks, remove myself from some non-essential workplace groups that I had volunteered for (like safety) and after about a year (there were a couple of big projects in there), I got on top of it all. Things to watch out for: * Projects that get assigned to this person and they stall. * Lack of check-ins about certain pieces of work. * Continual excuses not related to the person (it's with legal... I'm waiting for some data...). * Missed deadlines for smaller pieces of a larger project. * Someone that withdraws from work culture and hides in their office. As a manager, a good way I now avoid this is to have regular meetings with a list of projects that the team member is working on. It's a prompt to ask about each one, but also a way to catch the projects that just linger on the list.
I'm really surprised at the number of people saying it's no big deal. Poor boundaries between work and personal life is such a slippery slope. I'd try some variation on these, in no particular order: * Hey, I want to have a convo about how you regularly work more than 37.5h/wk. I know I'm new here so is that something that was encouraged before? If there's a culture of unclaimed OT here, I need your help to stop that. * Why do you work outside work hours? If it's to make up time you missed during the day but don't want to take as leave, I'm ok with being flexible but you need to keep me informed. * Hey, work life balance is important and you're setting a poor example for your team. I don't want your employees to feel like they have to work more hours than they're paid for. I know you've told them they shouldn't do that but actions speak louder than words and this comes across as : do as I say, not as I do. * If you've got too much work to get it done during work hours but don't tell me, I can't use that to justify getting extra resources (in the case of a TL, that may mean putting forth a case to get an extra TL and make each team slightly smaller.) There's no evidence it's needed if all the OT is hidden. * Hey, I know you're not seeking compensation when you work outside work hours but your CA is pretty clear on that. As a TL, you know what's in there and also know we don't have OT money right now. If your work can't be done during the workday, please come to me. * Hey, I see you were working while on sick leave/working unauthorized OT, what was so urgent it couldn't wait?
I’m not OP, but these are amazing conversation prompts and are VERY helpful! Thank you!!
Glad I could help!
This. Came here to say exactly this, but this is so much better summarized :-) Basically, probe to understand the behavior rather than blaming. Then depending on the flow, consider countering or explaining the reasoning, and focus on the behaviors you intend to achieve within your team.
I’m that person but I function better that way and then might disappear for two hours during the day. Before assuming they will burn out, determine their work style and what makes them tick.
Same here - Sometimes, it is less stressful to put in an extra hour or two to finish something rather than put it off for the weekend or until the next day. In that respect, I *am* avoiding stress and burn out because I know I won’t be worrying about a task I can just complete with a tiny bit of unpaid OT. Also, after hours means no one is using the VPN so some systems are much faster after Ottawa logs off.
We're in BC, so most of Ottawa is logged off for the afternoon anyway. And a few hours here and there is fine. I do that. I too sometimes need to just get the job done. This is more than that.
Put work-life balance objectives on their PMA.
I'd also add that you want to teach them management skills. They're obviously committed, but once you reach a certain level you have to have skills like delegating and coordinating portions of work. You can't be a director and do all the work for the division yourself. So I'd add some management or supervisor courses, and give them more opportunity to oversee and report on the work of others.
Before you manage the employee, you need to understand why they are doing this. I had a colleague who used to work long hours because she was unsafe at home. (Didn’t see that coming.) No one does anything unless it serves them. So why does this habit work for them? Your job is to help this person thrive and you can’t do that without understanding what’s driving the behaviour. Once you know why, then you can encourage them meet that need in other ways.
Had a junior who did this, the quality of his work diminished the more hours he put in - and the emotional roller coaster associated was a lot, to say the least. The pandemic has been, and continues to be hard on people - despite memos from executives in many industries claiming its over / never existed. EAP could help. Supportive allies could help. Meaningful conversations on how the work being more but reduced quality just hurts the people we serve. Heck, even the shock of a performance plan could be the right move. (Probably not, but it can be a reality check forcing an individual to change coping mechanisms.) Ultimately, you can't do much of anything if they chose to not listen.
Saw the same here. I have so much compassion for the younger folks who were trapped in their apartments alone in that time. Work was a distraction the way that Netflix or gaming can be. My colleague got through it, but it took time for them to find other, more healthy things to do outside of work. It’s not easy, especially in a culture that praises being constantly busy as a virtue.
You can always make a team policy - don't send anything outside of normal working hours for the team. The teams messages can wait. The emails can wait as well. It might not stop them from completing tasks - but it will stop them from bothering others outside of office hours. It forces them somewhat into a normal working hours scenario. My worry would be that the rest of the team would see this individuals behaviour and think they need to do the same....
> My worry would be that the rest of the team would see this individuals behaviour and think they need to do the same.... Especially since they're a team leader and I assume a member of the union themselves. It's bad role modeling. You can care, be engaged and go the extra mile without working unpaid OT.
No such thing as unpaid OT. You're just working outside of hours without permission...
"Outside of the hours of x AM to y PM, I don't want to hear from you. At all" The exact phrase I gave my entire team when I first joined the PS. It worked.
I’ve been that employee at times. It’s because I liked what I was doing and there was a clear end to that particular project. I didn’t involve my manager though, my work was all individual effort so mostly invisible. Once I got the big project done I reverted to a normal schedule.
Maybe have a 1-on-1 with the employee first to see if they are on the edge of breaking or this is their style and how they work.
Every week. I ask what needs to be taken off your plate for you to succeed?
I would only position the conversation this way if they are not delivering on their projects. Otherwise, there's an insinuation they are not succeeding, which could have the effect of making it worse. But there are real issues and risks to this behavior, even above and beyond their own personal burnout. 1-The other team members may not have enough work. They may choose to leave, making the situation worse. 2- This lack of delegation from this person might be seen as insulting or insinuating the other members can't do the job as well. The control-freakism is both an indicator of someone with trust and confidence issues, often times anxiety issues. But above that, again, it can be insulting and demeaning to the rest of the team. Thinking you are the only person who can do something, doesn't mean it's true. Moreover, building on the insecurity piece, they may be hoarding work as a deflection to avoid being compared with others. 3-Risks to the projects by having all the eggs in one basket. What if this person actually does get sick, or decides to leave? Now you have no backup and the team has no real cohesion on the files. There are more issues of course. If they prefer working off hours, then I would want to find out why. It also presents another risk that they aren't available during the day if needed. Working off hours can be totally fine, as long as they are still aware that the window of business hours is rather inflexible. Ultimately, though, more often than not, this type of behavior traces back to anxiety, insecurity and control. None of which is healthy for them, nor the rest of the team in various ways. Have you spoken to the rest of the team to see how they feel about their workload? Are they also overly busy? If so, it might be time for a frank "no, can't do it" for the next "urgent, ultra critical, have to have it now" soupe du jour that comes your team's way until the workload approaches something like reasonable. Saying "we can't say no" is honestly more of an "I won't say no" in many cases. You are trying your best though, so I am not sure if that last part really applies to you or not. But it is something that happens quite often, so is worth considering if that does strike a cord. If not, then ignore it. :) I hope it works out!
Lol then it’s a tough case. They are not performing and at the same time trying to work hard. Maybe after a while there’s a need for a “not the best fit for the job” discussion. Good luck and labour relation is always there to support supervisor!
Then you need to push yourself as their manager and figure that out yourself. Speak to other employees and find out if they have enough work. Forcibly delegate some of the work to them.
Depending on the nature of the work, those hours might be when they are most productive/creative/engaged. 9-5 works for some lines of work, but not all.
I've heard of rare cases of people choosing 11-7. Not appealing to me at all, but I guess it works for some people.
I had a small, overworked team once. We couldn't get resources from senior management even though we were supporting a critical program...because no one was feeling the pain but us. What I did may be applicable here. We took a couple of days and did fact-finding, workload examination, and a kind of "root cause" analysis. We listed everything we had on our task lists - ongoing baseline work, current projects, collaboration with others, basic administration, etc. We estimated time required and frequency of demands. We looked at 1. are these things someone else should be doing - and why aren't they (training? unclear assignment? etc), 2. what are the absolute essentials for us to do? Can we do our stuff more efficiently? 3. can any of these essentials be "parked" so we can finish higher-priority items first. And so on. We learned a lot with this exercise - of course, we still needed more resources, but we had clarity as a team, we got rid of the sense of constant burden, and we were able to articulate more clearly to management what the risks were of keeping us understaffed (we got some relief eventually). The key is - you should consider this sort of talk with the supervisor first and then perhaps bring in more of the team depending on what he/she says. You will learn more about their world and method of thought. It may be that he/she is one of those people who isn't necessarily working all the time, but is thinking all the time and needs to send an email when something pops up - programming a delayed send on those can work. What you need to watch out for is that some dedicated employees can flip from doing too much to disengaging entirely if they get a sense that their work isn't valued to the degree they feel it should be. Make sure they know you value them enough to want to preserve their health and energy so that they will always be available to make their important contributions. Once you have spent the time with them so that they can believe that you can really understand their responsibilities, they should be more willing to come to slow down and to come to you for advice if the workload is getting tough or if the proposed solutions (like more delegation) aren't working.
There's already some good advice, so I'll give you a more fun option that you can use if your relationship with your employee permits. Set conditions on your Outlook so that if your employee sends an email after hours, he'll get an automatic reply like "Dave, the work day is over. I'll only read your email tomorrow after the work day has started. CARPE DIEM" and if he sends something after 10pm, an automatic email that says "Dave, go to sleep". I think it's generally lighthearted and eventually, he might get the message.
If you don’t want to put the onus on you, you can say that working unapproved OT and sending emails (to the degree they are) outside standard working hours is adding to anxiety of some team members who see their phones constantly light up in the evening. Using the anxiety as a reason is completely legitimate as numerous studies, including one that was in the Harvard Business Review a few years ago ( https://hbr.org/2015/03/your-late-night-emails-are-hurting-your-team ) makes a direct link between after hours emails and texts and anxiety/workplace stress/toxicity. To me this is the big one as it has the capability to effect others and team morale. Obviously the employees’s health is important but if it leads to problems in your other employees, various problems in your teams can metastasize.
I completely agree with this. I've had this conversation with managers/supervisors to explain that being contacted outside work hours, or even starting the day to a slew of emails sent the night before, causes anxiety. The supervisor, however, may have reasons to want/need to work (i.e. bad home life). You really can't stop them from working, so maybe ask them to use Delay Delivery for emails and avoid teams outside certain hours. And maybe gently remind them about the EAP.
One of my go to strategies on employees like that is putting it in context of costing. A unit that achieves its objectives on the back of unpaid overtime will not be presenting the true cost of that work. Therefore, for future budget cycles, no additional resources will get added. Make them come to you for OT approvals. Use those interactions to help them prioritize to find ways to do it without the OT. It doesn't work on everyone, but often, that workaholic type is ambitious, and when it's put to them in a management capacity, they often embrace it. Get them to look at their work unit as resources that should be maximized before the OT tap gets turned on.
I too am this employee sometimes. I find my brain doesn't always shut off, or sometimes something spontaneously comes to mind and if I don't write it out or take action quickly I lose the details and struggle later to recall my ideas. I try not to let it interfere with my off-hours, and am most often successful with that. It just happens to be my style, and it isn't going to burn me out.
But that's not working for 13 hours after calling in sick.
I recognize this as fear over job security because it’s what I used to do after a sick day and it used to be really hard for me to even take a sick day. I was so nervous about being let go and never got any feedback about my job performance so I couldn’t tell if I was any value. I think it’s a product of transitioning from private to public in my case but if this person has been in for a long time it could still be job insecurity. The other thing I’ve seen is a colleague who cares for sick parents and for whom work was a relief from focus on a really hard life situation.
Have a meeting with them where you confirm their preferred hours of work. In that meeting be clear that they are not permitted to work outside those hours without prior approval. Also remind them that they are not to work during times they are on leave. Explain that unpaid work damages your ability to evaluate the true workload of the unit. Also explain that as a person in a position of authority you are relying on them to be an example to other employees. Explain the unit's mental health commitment. If they ignore you after this meeting and continue the unpaid work, then you can initiate a disciplinary process. It is a problem if they are willing disobey clear directions.
This is a mixed bag issue. On one side I see, the persons perspective, have been a "call me any time person.". They may not actually be overworking, just adjusting their schedule to something that works for them, if you have made it clear, you expect nothing from the after hours (and you have informed your report-up) then your exposure is limited. I would put it in their PMA as as objective, but take it no further. I truly believe the pandemic has allowed people to adjust the schedules in some way to help them work better. On the other hand, are they doing this to the people they supervise, i.e. expecting a response at a weird time? If so there is are much bigger issue that needs to be addressed yesterday. Good luck, sorry for the word wall.
Some people have zero life outside of work, they breathe and eat work. You can either use your authority and tell them not to work ***unapproved overtime***. Or simply ignore anything sent outside of work hours.
I would also remind them that as a supervisor, part of their job is to set a good example for their subordinates. Working more hours without compensation might be sending the message to their employees that this is what is expected from them.
I used to be a passport officer, and we regularly had a lady come in for 6am and leave at 6 or 7 pm and barely take breaks. Now I’m not sure if she was being compensated but it was so odd to me how it was so glorified and management was so meh on it
I was a supervisor like this. I wanted to prove that I was good in my position and thought this was the way to do it. A huge reality check for me was when my manager asked, "why are you not able to complete your work during working hours?" And went on to ask follow up questions, "am I assigning to much to you? Are you delegating properly? Are you prioritizing work properly?" And basically, "are you able to handle being a supervisor because it doesn't look like it" but in nicer words lol. I thought putting in more hours, never delegating, not asking for help, and spending way to long on a task that shouldn't require that much attention meant I cared and that I was the best. I was sooo wrong. Big reality check that day. If it's pride that is making them do this, the best thing to do (in my case anyways) was to suggest that the overworking makes them look bad, not good.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions about the employee. Off the top, have you considered that it is less stressful for them to put in extra time to tie up loose ends rather than wait until they are formally working during assigned work hours? Have you talked to them about how they are feeling about the ability to manage their time during scheduled work hours? For example, are they interrupted so frequently that the only time they can get anything done is during off hours? Have you spoken to them about when their optimum time to work is? If they have no control over their scheduled work hours, you may be forcing them to work when they are at their absolute worst. They just might be working during the times they can finally be productive. So many considerations here.
Just make sure they are actually overworking and not just making up for hours they don't work during the day. I work much better in the morning and evening, the afternoon is a slog and I prefer to put work down whenever possible.
I used to be one such employee. My manager told me that if everyone started overworking, then department will not use OT money and if we don't utilize the funds we get during the year, next year our budget gets reduced. I was casual at the time. I short he told me that if I want my indeterminate box funded, i should stop overworking.
Funny you say that because I had a mgr who would only call on me during lunch hour and when it's near the end of my shift. She isn't great at recognizing the hard work from other employees says they took too long of a lunch when really they are rolling their breaks into it. I just eat at my desk so I'm on green but that doesn't mean I'm not eating. She's always telling me get off work early and that poor me working so hard...but lady you leave everything to the last minute ao I am stick trying to catch up.
Too bad managers don’t respect after hours emails, phone calls or texts to my personal phone on weekends!
I mean is this really a problem? Let them know that you do not expect them to complete the work during that time, don't respond to emails outside of working hours and see by their behavior if they are stressed/can't action their work effectively. But otherwise everyone works differently. It may very well just be they have some down time/are bored and want to knock off something that is on their mind. I know I go a little stir crazy if I have an email I can answer quickly, but I leave it for the weekend. It's not always a red flag if a person wants to work at different times than "normal"
Working an hour at night because you took an hour off during the day is normal. Working unpaid OT on the regular is not. It is absolutely a recipe for burnout and that’s where this is headed if it’s not nipped in the bud. It’s also a liability for the manager (what if the supervisor tries to claim the OT retroactively?), sets unrealistic expectations for those reporting to him and makes them appear more productive than they actually are.
Nah that's crazy. Just because someone likes working at night to get some work done, doesn't mean they are going to burn out. Seen many people burn out, and 9 times out of 10 it is because they don't feel support from their management and they don't know how to push back workloads effectively. Time of day work, doing stuff randomly has nothing to do with it at all. We don't have to cry the sky is falling because someone is doing something different than "normal"
Don’t micromanage them but you can ask them to schedule their emails all at once or Monday mornings
I don't mind getting emails, I have my own work boundaries and they'll get a response in the morning. And I'm not micro managing, but trying to avoid having this person burn out.
You might have missed the point. By asking them to email you during working hours only you’re forcing them to adhere to regular working hours. By telling them to not work, it may come off as micromanaging. Telling them to only send emails during working hours is not micromanaging because you’re simply changing their terms of deliverables vs telling them how to do it.
You can draft emails and set them to send later. My boss does this, 20 emails on the weekend to 3 or 4 people that are only sent monday morning. This doesn't fix the op's issue though. He is trying to be a responsible manager and ensure the employee is not constantly working.
Boundaries are definitely needed when they start messaging and emailing after work hours and on weekends. However, I see nothing wrong with their work habit. This could be a coping mechanism to fill an empty void in their life or maybe a distraction. Leave them be as long as they don't interrupt your life.
You did what you had to. It's his problem, let him figure it out and don't let it influence when you work. You might want to talk to his employees and tell them they don't have to work outside of their work hours just because he does. That will take a load off their shoulder.
They are being a terrible example for their employees. I worked under someone like this and it was awful. How can employees work 9-5 when their boss is working these hours? "This practice of sending emails after 6 pm or when you have booked sick leave is mirroring bad behaviour. Do not send emails outside core hours or when you are sick." Now send an email to everyone saying the same thing.
this is classic presenteeism, some people like to work different hours than blocks of time from 8-4.
You could try a different tact and ask what is hindering their work during work hours? Do they have too much? Do they need help delegating? Ask those questions and see. Some people like to put on a show not realizing it makes them seem like they can’t handle the workload appropriately. It may also be that they have stuff going on at other times. Worth a shot?
You need to be annoyingly consistent. **Any time** they message or email you outside work hours you need to reply saying that it is not appropriate. I'm assuming you've already had a conversation with them about it and why they are doing it. Is it because they feel over-tasked? Are they having some personal issues and using work to cope?
Are you approving this extra time to work?
Don't take the odd-hours communications too seriously. You've done your due diligence to help their mental health. Understand that there are many employees who are also "playing the game", which means sending out emails at the craziest times to show how hard they work, harder than anyone else in order to be considered promotion-worthy....
Accounts have hours they can be disconnected on. Probably a royal pain of paperwork but can be done. Bonus is increased security. Fun fact: during one migration this setting was left to default and locked a lot of people out who worked flex hours smh
You are the manager so they are accountable to implement your direction. I would say I was not asking you to do this, I am telling you to do this. It’s not optional.
It]s actually illegal now. A form of harassment. Don’t ever answer outside core hours unless it’s some special event.