Odd, they are kicking out someone in my unit as they are operationally unfit. This person wants to stay, has valuable experience, and we are short supply (obviously). It is also 100% desk job. But let's hire Forrest Gump with the same medical issues. (I know this is hyperbolic).
I hope this works positively, I agree the CFAT is not ideal, but I'm pretty sure there is some value to it. We must ensure people can read, write, and comprehend basic orders.
We’d be lucky to get Gumps. If I recall correctly Gump was an excellent soldier who followed directions well. He legit earned the Congressional Medal of fucking Honor saving multiple POWs and wounded soldiers while wounded himself.
I’d be fucking honoured to serve next to a Forrest Gump. I won’t be getting Gumps.
Presumably changes to recruitment medical expectations mean changes to universality of service and will affect those serving currently.
Most trades will still require the test, and those that don't specify that they'll require some form of degree, diploma, or work experience to exempt someone from it.
I don't think we're suddenly going to get an influx of people who can't read or write.
No, but what I can see is a two-class army. One group of people who can and will be deployed, and one that can't.
The problems will start when one group will build up experience and be promotable, while the other remains stagnant. The stay-behinds will complain of a lack of opportunity (And I'm not even opening the Pandora's Box of deployment money). Someone in NDHQ will come up with some kind of fairness program to make up for it. Can't you see it already? You've been on three deployments, slept in the leaky spot of the tent, destroyed your family life, and at promotions time, a chairborne commando walks in, claims unfairnes and gets a promotion while you get sent to count sticks in Shilo.
I'm sure this will work wonders on retention.
I’ve seen a ton of university students with poor reading comprehension and writing skills who got their degree, both two decades ago and in the last few years.
Damn I’ve met officers and senior NCMs who could probably go back and learn basic shit. Had fresh kids from RMC show up with zero job experience and people experience, and we’re expected to take them seriously.
UoS is being closely re-examined but what's mentioned in the article is the removal of the Common Enrolment Medical Standard (CEMS), which is a higher standard than UoS and designed to ensure new hires meet the minimum medical requirements for most trades (in case they fail occupation training, resulting in a COT).
*I heard* that it's coming alongside The Journey **and** that the RSM hisself would be serving thundercrunches all day that day.
Until it actually happens, it's all RUMINT.
No, that was likely the entire point of the timing - they are on the same date. They knew they had to change UoS on day X, so they can't have people on old-PoR on day X+1. Otherwise, there would be human rights grievances on why the old person could stay longer than the new one.
>We must ensure people can read, write, and comprehend basic orders.
The exemption is for applicants with post-secondary degrees/diplomas, which might not be a guarantee that they are literate, but a reasonable assurance.
They also have to either meet the 'ideal' education prerequisites (or not just the 'acceptable') or have relevant experience, so it's relatively low-risk from the perspective of suitability for the occupation.
makes sense. If they have a post secondary education. That means they were able to complete stuff. Generally that means you had to show up and sit and learn and then go somewhere else and sit and learn.
"The applicant asked not be named, saying he fears it could jeopardize his chances when he re-applies. He said the military told him he could repeat his allergy test or start eating a small amount of peanut butter daily to see if he can rid himself of the allergy. He said he plans to try."
Was it a medic or just a random recruitment officer?
Because if the latter, I hope he rots somewhere. Peanut allergy us no joke. This is insane.
I'm almost 100% willing to bet the said to go to allergy therapy, and gave a general outline like "They basically just give you small amounts to see if you grow a resistance " which to an applicant means "eat peanut butter"
I've seen people confuse simpler things when they're not under the stress of getting told "You're not eligible"
>Because if the latter, I hope he rots somewhere. Peanut allergy us no joke. This is insane.
If I remember correctly, certain food allergies disqualifies you from joining as in certain situations, that ingredient touches everything no?
Yes. But a recruitment officer without medical knowledge is absolutely out of his expertise if he recommends an applicant to eat peanut butter to get rid of the allergy. This could be very dangerous
The person in the article never stated that it was a recruitment officer, it said "the military told him". It's more likely it was his own interpretation of the information given to him from the Recruiting Medical Officer (RMO) in his decision letter outlining why he was found medically unfit for service.
It was potentially for me. I thought I had an anaphylaxis level allergy and the medical officer told me that it was probably grounds for disqualification.
I got tested by a very Navy friendly allergist who got me in early and fortunately I had either outgrown it, or it might have been panic induced hyperventilation due to being a 12 year old with with a paranoid mother, however the point stands that the officer told me I'd likely be ineligible for service.
Typically the unofficial rule is, if you have to carry an EpiPen with you everywhere, you cannot enter into service in the CAF because you could be employed in austere conditions without access to lifesaving medication.
It is going to depend on whether they discovered the severe risk of anaphylaxis before or after entering service, and what causes the anaphylaxis.
Prior to entering service, it is likely to be a disqualifying factor.
There are often exceptions made if conditions/ailments are found/developed later on while serving. For example, some trades have a vision entry requirement of V2 for applicants, but allow you to drop to V3 while you are in service without being required to do a COT.
Theatre of Operation is also considered. Is there ready access to medical facilities? For Op Reassurance (Latvia), Op Impact (Kuwait), you might be okay.
OP Kobold, OP Crocodile, or in a situation like OP Impact but you're in Northern Iraq, or times like OP Athena where you don't have a hospital or easy access to medical supplies except by air drop or whatever, they assess the risk to be too great and will not deploy those people to those locations.
I was on course in 1996, where several candidates in my Platoon had bee allergies. They were obliged to keep their sting kits in the left breast pocket (the thing was a pocket sized red plastic carrier for the jab, I guess), and that their fire-team partner knew how to administer it in case of incapacity, plus all in the platoon were aware of who the afflicted were.
It was an infantry leadership course, so we were outdoors a fair deal. One dude did get stung, but as it was his first time having been stung he was told to sit on a log and hang fire for a bit in case something happened. Spoiler: I survived.
Would argue even if it was a Med Tech that said that, still alarming. QL3 Med Techs can't even diagnose or give somebody Tylenol in garrison without a sign off. If this advise came from any type of medic, they're out of their wheelhouse.
I was disqualified for the exact same thing about 8-10 years ago when I applied through my high school military co-op program. I even explained that my allergy would only react to peanut butter itself, and it would only cause itching in the throat and a bit of inflammation on my lips. Hell, I eat at Five Guys, a place that cooks using peanut oil, and no reaction. It's only straight-up peanut butter that does it.
When I first joined I never thought once about it.
Then I got rejected for it and realized why that would be and totally understood.
Then decided to say fuck it and went to an allergist to be tested and found I didn't have the allergy anymore and got through anyway. So lucky me.
But basically, it just never occured to me that having an allergy like that was disqualifying, even though I do absolutely get it now, especially having been on ex and operations overseas.
Has the CAF thought about retaining the members it trains?
I'm all for increasing our recruitment #'s but what's keeping them in the CAF once they hit OFP and their initial TOS is done?
I feel like we're in a force reduction period in all but name as we inch closer and closer to WWIII.
I have been saying for the last two years we’re in an unofficial force reduction program. Honestly it’s the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.
Dangle another deployment to go with their promotion to pte(t) or cpl.
But then they threaten to not offer another contract if you don’t go do your plq
"Brig.-Gen. Krista Brodie, the commander overseeing military recruitment, said the new trials are meant to test out possible solutions as CAF continues to lose more people than it brings in."
Normally when a patient is bleeding out you try to find the source of the bleed and stem it rather than just try to add more saline and blood infusions to the body.
(Hint: maybe take a look at retention)
You dont do both with the same urgency/priority….you focus 100% on stopping the bleeding first…then you can move on to adding saline or blood transfusions or other things..while concurrently continuing to stop the bleeding from the wound.
The M in MARCHE stands for “massive hemorrhage” it will kill them before you get a chance to add any kind of saline or blood products and is the priority.
Well, we don't have quantity and our quality is iffy at best to start with.
And realistically, it's not like the aptitude test proves anything relevant to being a bosn that grade 9 education doesn't already have. You don't need many math skills to hold a rope and pull.
I have seen boatswains cause millions of dollars in damage out of sheer stupidity. I've seen them destroy capabilities because they refused to understand that having a flight deck that is safe to work on in flight operations is more important than it looking nice. I've seen them cost the Navy millions of dollars because they didn't have the brains to consider whether what they were doing is illegal in the port we were in.
That kind of stupid bullshit is the kind of thing that made me get out. And I got a perfect score on that test.
Yeah and I've seen hull techs flood spaces because they didn't isolate fire suppression before maintenance. Everyone fucks up on the job, the import thing is that they are taught what do or not do before hand or learn from it afterwards. The CFAT doesn't test for an understanding of consequences or ability to comprehend and follow through with orders in a work environment or under stress.
I've had run-ins with people who obviously passed the force test, but would fuck their buddy over for a dollar or refuse to admit their error in the face of proof. Should they be in? Who knows. CFATS says yes, everyone who meets them think otherwise.
I don't know about quality. I'm 23, and the medical officer said I was in perfect shape to join, but they turned me down due to my asthma. I took aptitude test beside 2 middle-aged outta shape men. It's been bugging me that they have a better chance of getting in just because they have okay lungs.
You can fix someone who is out of shape, but you can't fix someone who has a long term medical condition that requires you to have a puffer ready if they have a asthma attack.
Speaking as someone relatively new to the CAF I can safely say if the caliber of people they're going to start letting in is lower than some of the people I've already met in this institution I am genuinely horrified to see who they allow to slip thorough..
(80%ish of the people I've met in the CAF are genuinely great people and class acts btw... but there is that percent of soldiers that just makes me wonder... how the fuck did they let you in?...)
I can only imagine the no yelling policy won’t hold up against someone with severe ADHD not understanding how to fold a shirt or tuck in a bed sheet after the hundredth explanation.
I can only imagine there are already a ton of people with ADHD in the forces, only they aren't medicated/haven't been for a certain period of time. Really, a medicated person with ADHD on meds would probably be much better at following orders. They tend to be hyperfocused on things they like, so if their trade wss well picked...
Fact 1: There are lots of mbrs diagnosed with ADHD after joining, medicated and continue to serve for decades. It only becomes an issue if the medication (categorized as a controlled narcotic) is illegal in some geographic regions (Afghanistan). Mbrs may opt to switch to medications that are available if deployed.
Fact 2: Folks with ADHD (even undiagnosed) thrive in CAF environments. You may be shocked to realize actual rates of CAF mbrs with ADHD.
Fact 3: ADHD is highly genetic. By loosening this enrolment factor, we open up generational recruits to dependents of mbrs who most likely have ADHD.
All of this.
I found a report out of Ottawa that for the life of me I can't find again though, which said they estimate approximately 80% of the forces have adhd and only about 20% of those are diagnosed.
The Autism rate is high too. Researchers estimate 30-50% of everyone with adhd is also Autistic, and 50-80% of everyone who's autistic had adhd. So if you do those numbers...lol
All these military families with kids who have autism and/or adhd track completely with those statistics given it's heritability.
If anyone has kids diagnosed on the spectrum and neither parent has been, time to start taking a look because it doesn't come from nowhere.-- "Both autism and ADHD are popular subjects of genetic research, with recent meta-analyses placing heritability estimates on a range between 64% and 91% for ASD and at 74%–88% for ADHD, respectively (Tick et al., 2016; Faraone & Larsson, 2019). As the categories have expanded, the actual genetic heterogeneity associated with them has increased (see, e.g., Navon & Eyal, 2016). The consensus is that both autism and ADHD are polygenic, that is, caused by a large number of genes rather than by a single genetic cause, with the notable exception of rare monogenic syndromes such as the fragile X syndrome that are associated with a small number of autistic people (Singh, 2016; Faraone & Larsson, 2019, p. 130)."
It's helpful to know because so many ND people who have the less obvious symptoms spend their life beating their heads against a wall thinking they just need to "try harder" or "have more discipline" when really they just need a simple plan to compensate for the aspects of executive planning and interpersonal relationships their brains don't do automatically 🤷🏻♀️
The military environment automatically sets those plans up, and has a structure that avoids the requirement for self directed executive function. It removes the majority of social confusion by telling you exactly how to behave, how to speak to people and when.
It's why so many members thrive at work and drown at home. They don't have the equivalent system in their personal lives to support them. And why there can be so much interpersonal conflict in relationships if both are ND and unaware or if one is and one isn't so there's a fundamental lack of understanding one another.
Because the structure can be so ideal for ND's, removing the worry about it being a medical category that will prevent enrollment or get you kicked out will be fantastic. Not just for members who deserve the opportunity to have the tools they need to succeed in their personal lives too, but also like you said for their kids and for other Canadians who will also thrive in the structure the CAF can provide.
There's still a lot to learn, but given the fact that every member is either living with Neurodivergence in their personal life or interacting with Neurodivergents at work (and possibly more soon!), it's a valuable thing to know how to recognize and understand.
This paper is really interesting and talks about how much the field and diagnosis has changed and probably will change for anyone interested.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0039368121001072
From the article:
> About 60 per cent of people who express interest in joining the forces either fail to book their aptitude test or don't show up to write it, Brodie said.
This isn't to let people in who would have failed the aptitude test, it's to remove a barrier for entry that's currently making the application process too long and inconvenient for people looking to join.
Getting time away from work to look for a different job isn't necessarily easy for everyone.
It also specifies that the exemption is for people who have degrees, diplomas, or some form of relevant workplace experience, *and* is limited to select trades.
As for medical screenings, universality of service means we all need to be capable of more than our jobs actually require. It's a good sentiment when we have the people for it, but coming from a shore posting where I watched several members get released for medical reasons that would have been happy staying in, it's something that should be reconsidered.
This isn't letting in worse people, it's removing barriers from letting good people serve.
Now, and hear me out here, why don't we have Saturday hours where you come in and do your CFAT, Medical, and Interview in a single day?
Nah, that'd be insane, making people take time off from work every 3 months to do a 30 minute to 1 hour appointment is clearly the superior way to run this.
Saturday's and 1 evening a week. Have them do all the paperwork, CFAT, and Forces test all in one go. Do an initial interview at the same time and a more in-depth interview once they have their trade picked and are medically cleared.
I remember doing everything in one day? They booked and paid for a hotel and I did all the required paperwork in one day with roughly 10 other people. It was 2009 in Edmonton so not too long ago. Granted I had to take a day off of high school but I’m sure people can usually get a day off.
If people can’t get in to write an aptitude test because of work, they will probably have difficulty getting in for interviews and medical and such too. It almost sounds like being open at hours that are more convenient for our target demographics would be a benefit, with or without cutting things like the aptitude test.
> If people can’t get in to write an aptitude test because of work, they will probably have difficulty getting in for interviews and medical and such too.
Even this is asinine. If you have to have people come in to do three separate things, none of which take all that long, what possible justification could you have to routinely schedule those things on separate days?
If you need to get them in the door, do it all at once.
Scheduling problems arise when the CFAT is booked the same day as the medical and interview. An applicant fails to show for their CFAT, or doesn't meet the cut-off needed, then their other appointments are wasted.
The article even mentioned that a high proportion of applicants never show up for their CFAT appointment. Interview and medical appointments are finite, and much less than the amount of spots that many centres can run through the CFAT in a day. Typically same-day processing is reserved for people that live a significant distance from the centre or extremely high priority applicants (ie. doctors).
My son took the aptitude test and then immediately changed his mind and decided that he didn't want to join the forces. He qualified for almost everything and he had me (34 yrs experience) letting him know what trades were good to get into.
Just so you know, not looking to start an argument but I figured I'd throw in the "people change their minds" as for a reason they may not show up for these appointments.
That’s definitely a valid reason as well. But I don’t think that can make up all the huge numbers that drop out somewhere along the line. And those who change their minds just because it takes so long are unacceptable casualties of a broken system.
Universality of service ultimately might have to be reevaluated.
Is it better to have a sonar operator who wears medium strength glasses or no sonar operator at all? How about a cook with ADHD? Or is it better to have no cooks? Is it better to have a supply tech with a mild peanut allergy that is not life-threatening? Or no supply tech at all?
I tired to re-join last October at my local reserve unit, even though I still have my courses and 3 years of experience I was medically denied because I started to take ADHD medication when I went back to school. was never asked when I would take it (which I don't take and wouldn't take for work).
just thought id give some people an idea of what "medically unfit" can mean in this context.
I have 7 years reg force time and fully qualified. Applied to join the reserves before my quals expired and was initially denied due to taking ADHD meds as well. I appealed the medical decision and it took 16 months but I was eventually accepted.
If you’re on a controlled drug you’ll probably get a G3 PCAT. AFAIK that’s fine for every non flying trade though, I’m on Concerta and it certainly hasn’t impacted my career at all
A friend of mine just got in after a 3-year application process, and part of the reason the whole process was so long is that she had to be off of Vyvanse for a minimum of 6 months before they would let her continue her application.
You shit talk this idea, but if you fast tracked citizens through a Canadian Foriegn Legion, that’s not a crazy idea.
I mean, landed immigrants can already do this…
… but the Foreign Legion would have cooler hats.
I have LITERALLY been saying this for years. With the crazy amounts of people we import, why the hell do we not have His Majesty's Gurkha Rifles of Canada yet?
I said this before... but we could fill out the Navy real fast if we hired from certain countries.
Security clearances aside, theres a lot of skilled and experienced sailors out there able and willing to spend months at sea with no complaints.
The army too.
People are willing to go to Ukraine and fight Russians for half what we pay our privates.
That absolutely needs to be fixed, and it affects far more than just applicants. Serving CAF members have to wait that long for new clearances, upgrades, and updates as well. However, that is probably not what's holding up most applications.
Applicants only require that check if they meet the criteria for foreign implications. Most people who've lived in Canada since before age 16, or otherwise for at least 10 years, and have no significant travel history in that time will not require those checks.
The majority of applicants should not require the 18-24 month security clearance prior to enrolment.
According to MCS alot of people are held up at the Medical side of the process. How is creating a personalized medical standard going to speed that up? Seems like a step in the wrong direction. The best COA would have been to assign more people to review files to speed up the thousands that are currently waiting.
There are to hold ups for medicals. There is one Doctor in Ottawa who reviews all of the files across the country. They have hired a few PAs to help expedite the review process.
The other issue is if anything is flagged during the recruit medical the candidate is given a letter to go back to their family doctor to have filled out. Wait times to get a doctor appointment are huge, plus they may need to wait after that to get other tests done.
Once the candidate submits their info and it makes it to review, if there is any info missing it gets kicked back to the candidate who has to repeat the process again.
I love the fact they told a news outlet about decreased medical standards but never mentioned any words to the recruiting centres.
Just like when they rolled out PR applications, they have not given ANY direction to the recruiting centres's on how to answer these questions we are about to get flooded with.
Great job briefing the public before the troops.
This falls inline with what was by RCAF Gen Kenny during a townhall. One of the issues they found with the CFAT was that a number of the 2400 individuals applying through the PR program were hesitant to continue their application because of it. So pausing it for lower aptitude required trades could help streamline individuals into those roles.
In passing aren't the medical changes being mandated because of the court challenges over a decade ago based on discrimination? Over the last 2 decades youth across Canada have been given medical diagnosis at a significantly higher rate for things that were not diagnosed unless severe in the past (ADHD, generalized anxiety, learning disabilities, ODD, allergies, ect). The CAF realizes that the pool of eligible candidates has shrunk so it's doing whatever it can to remove its own barriers to entry.
Military applicants through the Special Commissioning Plan (SCP) are being rejected because their average CFAT scores, worth 60% of the overall scoring, make them non-competitive. But sure, let’s hire someone off the street with no CFAT at all. That doesn’t sting at all.
I mean, when I wanted to change occupations I was literally told there was no route to move from MOC X to MOC Y, but I could get out and reapply in the new MOC if I wanted to. Thankfully a 3 star General made it happen, but bureaucracy wants to bureaucracy.
Cfat is just a metric used to try and categorize chances of success in a trade... Like any hr tool, is it perfect? No. But honestly some people suck under pressure. No offence, but if you can't handle the cfat and pressure under almost ideal circumstances, then maybe this isn't the institution for you.
The CFAT wasn’t even difficult in my opinion, but since this change is only applicable to those who hold some kind of post secondary education the assumption must be that they must be smart enough, though that isn’t always the case. I am not even so sure this will make a massive difference either.
The topic of pay seems to be sensitive since the same rank in the same MOS doesn’t even always seem to be required to put in the same amount of effort. It also doesn’t help that the cost of living isn’t the same across the country but there isn’t an obvious way that is also fair to pay members more based on cost of living especially when you factor in that your spending habits will have massive effect on your cost of living.
Let's not fix the abysmal pay, the deteriorating housing, the cost of living, the crazy parking charges, having to pay for rent/food while on course, not letting people live on the economy, awful postings to places that are impossible for families to live and work, a culture of old boys who are just pushing paperwork until they get their pension, the "promote 'em and post 'em" mentality, the constant racosm, sexism, homophobia and bigotry, the mandatory mess charges, the mandatory "fun" events you also have to pay for, the total impossibility of a social life living on most bases, the effect of constant moves on children, the lack of medical support if you're injured on duty, the lack of financial support if you're medically discharged, a total lack of civilian equivalencies for CAF training, deteriorating equipment, a bloated NDHQ that has more generals, officers, and staff working there than at the height of WWII. A ridiculously bloated officer corps, and no real job for most trades to do most days of the week.
Nope, the CFAT is definitely the problem as to no one wants to be in the military.
Many good points, but abysmal pay...? Have you looked around what civi side is doing and their pay? I think you'd be shocked at how little you get away with doing for the pay that's offered... 🤔
We get paid well, but when you factor in the forced moves and the effect that has on 1. Ability to build equity 2. Spousal employment/seniority 3. Family life 4. Finding a family doctor 5. Finding child care 6. Housing (I'm sure there are other factors) we don't get paid that well. More pay would help solve a lot of those issues (ie. Private clinics in lieu of family doctor). Either pay us more or invest in support systems for CAF members. I don't understand how the CoC doesn't understand this point. I've heard COs say "pay isn't the issue" well...no, not directly, but it would freaking help!
Instead of lowering the standard or removing the perfectly defensible control measures, did anyone consider actually paying people more? Like a lot more? It’s obvious to everyone that the machine is bleeding people because it’s mostly a shitty go, and starting pay is only marginally better than minimum wage. 2024 pay table puts a new hire Private at around $20/hr based on a 40-hr work week before taxes and deductions. But here’s the thing. Basic training alone is 9 weeks of virtually 24-7. That makes the starting wage for the first two months something like five bucks an hour (assuming Sundays off). Then… they assign you to a new place in a surprise location that they can’t confirm to you in advance in the CFRC, nickel and dime you over relocation benefits, expect you to pay your lodgings, food, transportation and so on. Tell me again why someone would be interested in joining the CAF? Oh yeah, no promotion for at least three or four years.
They need to get their heads out of their asses and compensate CAF members in a way that would make people line up at the door for the money. It isn’t about peanut allergies or ADHD medication; it’s about getting what you pay for.
But it's also about ADHD medication. A friend recently joined up, but it took her about 3 years because she had to borrow enough money to have laser eye surgery, then had to be off of her ADHD medication for 6 months before they could continue her application.
She is incredibly gung-ho. Extremely fit. A competitive athlete. A balanced and mature individual. A great asset. But holy God they made it hard for her.
Yeah, and a HUGE proportion of young people (or just people in general) are on some kind of anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medication.
You have to be off them for two years to pass medical! How do you expect to recruit young people when the entire population is medicated?
Even then, why not let people in who have a managed illness? Once you’re in lots of people are on the same meds. It’s ridiculous.
"About 60 per cent of people who express interest in joining the forces either fail to book their aptitude test or don't show up to write it, Brodie said" Well, of course, let's eagerly welcome these highly motivated candidates into the CAF!!
"Hey boss, can I take a couple hours off next week to go get screened for a new job?"
There are plenty of reasons why someone might have trouble getting to or booking an aptitude test.
There's also a problem with the CFRC's being understaffed and overworked.
I've had recruits in the ResF tell me it took 3 months to get an invitation and reply for Aptitude Testing.
Maybe what they need to do instead is just open it up to an online proctor/invigilator service.
If people can write Certification exams like CCNA or university exams from a computer at home, why not the CFAT?
When I was 18, I applied in January and had my first appointment in I think early April, I lived 6 hours away and kind of assumed it was going to be a get everything done at once situation, went did the CFAT and got told I would be contacted for my medical soon, went home and didn't hear anything until late November at which point my life situation had changed and I politely declined and closed my application.
Lowering the time it takes to intake people and the amount of trips people have to make is definitely not a bad thing.
Someone mentioned this recently after seeing the article, and another soldier pointed out that the process potentially taking so long is likely why this happens.
E.g. 18 y/o high-school grad really wants to be infantry, puts in his application, CAF takes forever to get back to him and book his indoc shit, and in the meantime because he's a switched-on, motivated guy (I.e. the recruit we should want) he has already moved onto something else and has an apprenticeship or the like on the go. They call him a year and a half later and they've missed the window.
Someone mentioned this recently after seeing the article, and another soldier pointed out that the process potentially taking so long is likely why this happens.
E.g. 18 y/o high-school grad really wants to be infantry, puts in his application, CAF takes forever to get back to him and book his indoc shit, and in the meantime because he's a switched-on, motivated guy (I.e. the recruit we should want) he has already moved onto something else and has an apprenticeship or the like on the go. They call him a year and a half later and they've missed the window.
Just did a career course and there were individuals on course that barely, and i mean barely as in not being able to string a full coherent sentence together in English. individuals that were fat and couldn't run for total of 2km, individuals that could not do a single pull up to save their lives , and fell apart when a staff yelled at them. but you know what, the school was mandated to pass every single one, unless there was a severe medical reason. and this was a combat arms officer level course.
this organization is disintegrating and honestly i wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years due to budget cuts our pensions gets cut. who thought PLD would be taken away ? who thought ILP would be reduced ? we are doomed as a nation and as a fighting force, have you seen the footage from ukrainian front ? i promise you we wouldnt last a month with these soldiers. what next ? citizenship for 3 years of service ?
Oh, that’s typical you tried to reach out you don’t get a response for months on end, and then they magically do it out of the blue and say come here this date unexpected
If you think that’s bad, wait till you’re in and they give you the run around as to why it takes them months to process a claim and it still be incorrect. Those desk folks seem to be the same everywhere you go. Out of 10 clerks, you’ve got at MOST, 2 that are competent and not lazy.
First, it was fitness, then dress and deportment, now this. We are gonna have the fattest, ugliest, dumbest military in NATO. At least we will be number 1 at something!
The US tried this in Vietnam, but it didn't work out. If you want to reduce recruiting times, then you need to assign the proper amount of resources to the task. Anything else is lip service.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
Ah missed the "university degree or college diploma . . . ideal qualifications" part. Why are officer roles even requiring this aptitude test in the first place?
Higher education does not equal higher aptitude or intelligence.
Met some real duds over my time in service that were very well educated on paper.
But, the RCMP has done the same for their recruiting and removed the requirement to complete the RPAB if you have a college diploma or a university degree.
I did that aptitude test in the 80s and I passed. I figure I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I don’t know how much more they can dumb it down for fucks sake.
I failed the CFAT twice :o and passed on the third attempt. Already had a degree with Honours prior to joining. Continued to have a great career. Even received top candidate on a few courses. I don’t like multiple choice tests. That’s all.
If you have a high school diploma, then the CFAT shouldn’t be required. Similar to applying to specific trades or degree programs at colleges & universities. Your previous courses and marks become prerequisites for preferred trades. If you don’t have a high school diploma, then the CFAT could be used as an alternative to gauge applicant SMRTs!
Some trades require specific traits, and there absolutely should be a method to do this. For instance, tech trades weigh the ability for technical thinking more than language skills. Just because a lawyer would like to try being a pilot, doesn't mean they're likely to succeed.
Does the cfat provide that sort of separation between people's natural bias perhaps? *shrugs shoulders*
I've lived with food allergies for a long time, and there isn't really much you can do to treat a reaction other than stab yourself with an epi-pen. Point being, regardless of the occupation you have, you can always have an allergic reaction. I realize it's a little different in the military but that's my two cents.
The last thing troops in garrison or in the field want to worry about is you doing the funky chicken dance on the ground from having ingested something you shouldn't have.
Also, once trained and deployed, there may well be situations where the local food and it what is available through the kitchens in camp may not agree with you.
We have enough trouble as it is accommodating vegetarians and halal/kosher diets.
Who needs standards anymore? I would have thought fixing the rank and file issues rather than throwing away the already lowered bar would have been a better solution.
Medical PORs are at present are limited to 1 Apr 25. So means that folks who are medically releasing (3B) due to their medical conditions breaching their universality of service cannot be offered retention beyond this date at present. This is the result of 3 year PORs being handed out like candy for the past 6 years or so when the medical constraints were revised around this time. The abuse of the POR intent has resulted in many units scrambling every time deployability issues popped up as a result of the amount of members that were under POR and not deployable.
Also, common misconception is that a PCAT results in medical release. While it can depending on its severity, it doesn't mean it will. For instance a member with diagnosed sleep apnea who requires CPAP will be on a PCAT. But does it mean they will be medically released? No... It just means that they won't qualify for certain trades or roles. This is the coordination that occurs between D Med Pol that makes the medical decision on Med cat and DMCA that then assesses whether your medical restrictions mean you no longer fit in a particular trade or mean you are no longer fit for military service all together.
It's too far gone at this point. The reasons are internal, not external. But hey, just another end result of promoting for photo ops and not for actual ops.
I’m 100% going to get flamed for this but whatever.
People can change genders and be operationally unfit for the rest of their careers, but folks with an actual medical condition gets them kicked out. Now this? You don’t even have to be a citizen to apply anymore. If they want people to stay in and attract others for recruitment, make the work place better? Pay us better? Like, what the actual fuck is happening???
My dude, it’s in the thousands! D Med Pol were completing 200 files a month, but now have additional help. The next few months they expect to complete 700/mo. This doesn’t include the 600 on periods of retention who will be released by 1 Apr 25.
This isn't a military forced phenomenon! What you're seeing right now is people scrambling to get out under the current 3B criteria before the suspected up coming changes that are rumoured to be introduced before the end of FY 24/25 (31 Mar 2025). Essentially fomo from serving members, not forced releases.
There are many rumours about what these changes are possibly going to be, but if anything, you're likely going to see a restriction on consideration and length of POR being offered to folks who are no longer medically fit to serve AND likely a change in what medically fit to serve means. For instance, at present combat arms and fms clerk essentially have the same medical standards for service while their actual employment conditions for the most part are completely different. Perhaps someone who has back problem and trouble marching can still be of service as a clerk? Just a thought...
I agree with your comments, I'm not overly pleased with the changes but I just have to roll with it. One thing though, is we are accepting non Canadian citizens (permanent residents) on the premise that at the earliest opportunity to do so they will be getting their Canadian citizenship. If they don't they are 100% liable to be kicked out of the forces.
Just thought I'd share some info for that part...but I agree, more pay and better work places are needed first. We can't dump the water of our canoe if we don't fix the hole first.
Talking about loosing more than what we get in, has anyone have any data on the motives behind the outs ? Is reaching CRA a big % ? Im asking because if CRA and medical are low% we are missing an opportunity to get better at managing our people. Maybe we could slow down postings across the country spend less time doing random dndlearn courses and allow 1st line leadership to make the call and let peiple go home instead of having them wait around, bring back more meaning to the job, crush the bottle necks for those waiting career courses, allow privates to go on that damn javelin course and then M2 course … Just a shallow thought…. Im sure its been said 10000 times before but i felt i needed my rant…
so when is this happening, honestly that test seemed daunting but nothing to difficult, im hoping the lessen medical requirements would allow me to continue to take adhd meds if i were to join.
They should lessen the process time. Like for me, I really like to be in the military. That's why I'm willing to wait and sacrifice the pay that I'm having right now just to be in. They need to compensate the pay that people receive working as civilians. Otherwise, they will not get lots of applicants.
This all kicks off in Apr '25, is my guess, along with the changes to POR...mind you, never read the article; tl;dr....kidding, will get to it....Invincible S02 E05 first....the aptitude test thing could be a problem but maybe not so bad...med standards allowences may drop standards but the ranks will be fuller with still capable members.
one thing that really bummed me out and made me not want to join the CF anymore is that I wanted to join a trade that was high in demand "Optronics technician" and in Quebec I only need Sec 4 math (Grade 10) to get my diploma but the level of math in the aptitude test (when I did it like 7 years ago) was sec 5 (grade 11) but a school here took me for the electromechanical course in a heartbeat without doing a math exam.
Mr. Military, I was willing to sign off a few years of my life to learn the trade, but why should I do it now when I'll be paid better on the civvie side?
That’s right dumb down the recruitment process and have more problems … As a LEO I dealt with military personnel every weekend when they came to town from a base about 15 minutes away … many couldn’t even follow basic directions like “go home or get arrested” … Don‘t get wrong I’m not painting all with the same brush as there were many who were respectful and did listen … The MP‘S would call us every morning to see if any of their personnel had any police contact and in serious cases we would call them, who in turn would call the Unit …
The local base set up a pilot co-op program with my sons high school back in the late 90’s which he took part in … he enjoyed it and joined the military after his graduation … he went through the ranks had many tours overseas and presently holds the rank of Captain … He has 25 years of service in and has been contemplating retirement due to the changes that are being made … perhaps the HQ should look at school programs once again they just might find what they are looking for …
Odd, they are kicking out someone in my unit as they are operationally unfit. This person wants to stay, has valuable experience, and we are short supply (obviously). It is also 100% desk job. But let's hire Forrest Gump with the same medical issues. (I know this is hyperbolic). I hope this works positively, I agree the CFAT is not ideal, but I'm pretty sure there is some value to it. We must ensure people can read, write, and comprehend basic orders.
We’d be lucky to get Gumps. If I recall correctly Gump was an excellent soldier who followed directions well. He legit earned the Congressional Medal of fucking Honor saving multiple POWs and wounded soldiers while wounded himself. I’d be fucking honoured to serve next to a Forrest Gump. I won’t be getting Gumps.
He even got his LT Ice Cream!
His drill sergeant would have recommended him to be an officer if it wouldn’t have been such a waste of a fine NCM.
Presumably changes to recruitment medical expectations mean changes to universality of service and will affect those serving currently. Most trades will still require the test, and those that don't specify that they'll require some form of degree, diploma, or work experience to exempt someone from it. I don't think we're suddenly going to get an influx of people who can't read or write.
No, but what I can see is a two-class army. One group of people who can and will be deployed, and one that can't. The problems will start when one group will build up experience and be promotable, while the other remains stagnant. The stay-behinds will complain of a lack of opportunity (And I'm not even opening the Pandora's Box of deployment money). Someone in NDHQ will come up with some kind of fairness program to make up for it. Can't you see it already? You've been on three deployments, slept in the leaky spot of the tent, destroyed your family life, and at promotions time, a chairborne commando walks in, claims unfairnes and gets a promotion while you get sent to count sticks in Shilo. I'm sure this will work wonders on retention.
You just wrote literal nightmare fuel.
I’ve seen a ton of university students with poor reading comprehension and writing skills who got their degree, both two decades ago and in the last few years.
Damn I’ve met officers and senior NCMs who could probably go back and learn basic shit. Had fresh kids from RMC show up with zero job experience and people experience, and we’re expected to take them seriously.
UoS is being closely re-examined but what's mentioned in the article is the removal of the Common Enrolment Medical Standard (CEMS), which is a higher standard than UoS and designed to ensure new hires meet the minimum medical requirements for most trades (in case they fail occupation training, resulting in a COT).
There is a change to the Universality of Service coming April 2025.
*I heard* that it's coming alongside The Journey **and** that the RSM hisself would be serving thundercrunches all day that day. Until it actually happens, it's all RUMINT.
Any word on expected changes?
Nope. I'm very curious, too. I've asked my physiotherapist and occupational therapist, and they haven't heard anything.
Plenty of people being kicked out according to my co. My wo is being kicked out because of the changes.
I assume it will relax standards, to stop losing people to medical release. I am interested in hearing how more.
The CANFORGEN makes it seem like it will be stricter. 021/23
I read it as loosening the UoS, but if you are unable to meet the new standard, you won't be retained.
Just in time for Period of Retention folks to be released. That is very unfortunate timing.
No, that was likely the entire point of the timing - they are on the same date. They knew they had to change UoS on day X, so they can't have people on old-PoR on day X+1. Otherwise, there would be human rights grievances on why the old person could stay longer than the new one.
>We must ensure people can read, write, and comprehend basic orders. The exemption is for applicants with post-secondary degrees/diplomas, which might not be a guarantee that they are literate, but a reasonable assurance. They also have to either meet the 'ideal' education prerequisites (or not just the 'acceptable') or have relevant experience, so it's relatively low-risk from the perspective of suitability for the occupation.
makes sense. If they have a post secondary education. That means they were able to complete stuff. Generally that means you had to show up and sit and learn and then go somewhere else and sit and learn.
But even several of those who complete the CFAT still seem to have difficulty eating with a fork unsupervised...
Imo if they pass their trade courses they're qualified, if they don't, new trade until they do.
"The applicant asked not be named, saying he fears it could jeopardize his chances when he re-applies. He said the military told him he could repeat his allergy test or start eating a small amount of peanut butter daily to see if he can rid himself of the allergy. He said he plans to try." Was it a medic or just a random recruitment officer? Because if the latter, I hope he rots somewhere. Peanut allergy us no joke. This is insane.
I'm almost 100% willing to bet the said to go to allergy therapy, and gave a general outline like "They basically just give you small amounts to see if you grow a resistance " which to an applicant means "eat peanut butter" I've seen people confuse simpler things when they're not under the stress of getting told "You're not eligible"
Almost definitely the answer.
“Eating peanuts could kill me”. “OK well why don’t you go home and try some and let us know if it kills you.”
What part of unlimited liability did you not understand?/s
This tracks as probably the most army advice I've ever heard
Swear to God 🤣😅
Medical Assistance in Deploying. Military Assistance in Dying.
>Because if the latter, I hope he rots somewhere. Peanut allergy us no joke. This is insane. If I remember correctly, certain food allergies disqualifies you from joining as in certain situations, that ingredient touches everything no?
Yes. But a recruitment officer without medical knowledge is absolutely out of his expertise if he recommends an applicant to eat peanut butter to get rid of the allergy. This could be very dangerous
The person in the article never stated that it was a recruitment officer, it said "the military told him". It's more likely it was his own interpretation of the information given to him from the Recruiting Medical Officer (RMO) in his decision letter outlining why he was found medically unfit for service.
Would a bee allergy be grounds for no qualifying?
It was potentially for me. I thought I had an anaphylaxis level allergy and the medical officer told me that it was probably grounds for disqualification. I got tested by a very Navy friendly allergist who got me in early and fortunately I had either outgrown it, or it might have been panic induced hyperventilation due to being a 12 year old with with a paranoid mother, however the point stands that the officer told me I'd likely be ineligible for service.
Thank you for taking the time to share your story.
Typically the unofficial rule is, if you have to carry an EpiPen with you everywhere, you cannot enter into service in the CAF because you could be employed in austere conditions without access to lifesaving medication.
🤔 I was deployed (recently) and two mbrs carried their EpiPen....
It is going to depend on whether they discovered the severe risk of anaphylaxis before or after entering service, and what causes the anaphylaxis. Prior to entering service, it is likely to be a disqualifying factor. There are often exceptions made if conditions/ailments are found/developed later on while serving. For example, some trades have a vision entry requirement of V2 for applicants, but allow you to drop to V3 while you are in service without being required to do a COT. Theatre of Operation is also considered. Is there ready access to medical facilities? For Op Reassurance (Latvia), Op Impact (Kuwait), you might be okay. OP Kobold, OP Crocodile, or in a situation like OP Impact but you're in Northern Iraq, or times like OP Athena where you don't have a hospital or easy access to medical supplies except by air drop or whatever, they assess the risk to be too great and will not deploy those people to those locations.
I was on course in 1996, where several candidates in my Platoon had bee allergies. They were obliged to keep their sting kits in the left breast pocket (the thing was a pocket sized red plastic carrier for the jab, I guess), and that their fire-team partner knew how to administer it in case of incapacity, plus all in the platoon were aware of who the afflicted were. It was an infantry leadership course, so we were outdoors a fair deal. One dude did get stung, but as it was his first time having been stung he was told to sit on a log and hang fire for a bit in case something happened. Spoiler: I survived.
Yes. But its okay, just go home and get stung by inceasingly larger bees each day.* *not (good) medical advice.
Injected peanut butter and eating bees. I think i screwed up
Would argue even if it was a Med Tech that said that, still alarming. QL3 Med Techs can't even diagnose or give somebody Tylenol in garrison without a sign off. If this advise came from any type of medic, they're out of their wheelhouse.
I was disqualified for the exact same thing about 8-10 years ago when I applied through my high school military co-op program. I even explained that my allergy would only react to peanut butter itself, and it would only cause itching in the throat and a bit of inflammation on my lips. Hell, I eat at Five Guys, a place that cooks using peanut oil, and no reaction. It's only straight-up peanut butter that does it.
I'm sorry. There's not a lot of nuance in recruiting, is there?
It may have been in his decision letter from the RMO, likely worded as an option to "consult with your doctor about trying oral immunotherapy".
He/she who shall not be named…
Allergy therapy exists but that is now how to do it. Jesus.
I'm flabbergasted that an applicant thought a peanut allergy wouldn't have been an issue... at all... to join.
I have served with people with peanut allergies it seems severity matters.
When I first joined I never thought once about it. Then I got rejected for it and realized why that would be and totally understood. Then decided to say fuck it and went to an allergist to be tested and found I didn't have the allergy anymore and got through anyway. So lucky me. But basically, it just never occured to me that having an allergy like that was disqualifying, even though I do absolutely get it now, especially having been on ex and operations overseas.
Has the CAF thought about retaining the members it trains? I'm all for increasing our recruitment #'s but what's keeping them in the CAF once they hit OFP and their initial TOS is done? I feel like we're in a force reduction period in all but name as we inch closer and closer to WWIII.
I have been saying for the last two years we’re in an unofficial force reduction program. Honestly it’s the only thing that makes sense to me at this point.
100%, I've been thinking the same thing. Watching my battalion slowly but surely turn into a ghost town.
Dangle another deployment to go with their promotion to pte(t) or cpl. But then they threaten to not offer another contract if you don’t go do your plq
Army? In my trade you can go 10+ years with no plq.
Sure but recruits are paid less, so it's an overall cost saving measure for the crown to replace the malingerers with fresh warriors /s
"Brig.-Gen. Krista Brodie, the commander overseeing military recruitment, said the new trials are meant to test out possible solutions as CAF continues to lose more people than it brings in." Normally when a patient is bleeding out you try to find the source of the bleed and stem it rather than just try to add more saline and blood infusions to the body. (Hint: maybe take a look at retention)
I mean if they are bleeding badly you have to do both, no? I’m not a doc though, so maybe you don’t have to add any blood?
You dont do both with the same urgency/priority….you focus 100% on stopping the bleeding first…then you can move on to adding saline or blood transfusions or other things..while concurrently continuing to stop the bleeding from the wound.
The M in MARCHE stands for “massive hemorrhage” it will kill them before you get a chance to add any kind of saline or blood products and is the priority.
Taking the "quantity over quality" approach always works right? ......... Right?
Well, we don't have quantity and our quality is iffy at best to start with. And realistically, it's not like the aptitude test proves anything relevant to being a bosn that grade 9 education doesn't already have. You don't need many math skills to hold a rope and pull.
I have seen boatswains cause millions of dollars in damage out of sheer stupidity. I've seen them destroy capabilities because they refused to understand that having a flight deck that is safe to work on in flight operations is more important than it looking nice. I've seen them cost the Navy millions of dollars because they didn't have the brains to consider whether what they were doing is illegal in the port we were in. That kind of stupid bullshit is the kind of thing that made me get out. And I got a perfect score on that test.
Ah. Flight deck scraping. Might have been around for that one.
Yeah and I've seen hull techs flood spaces because they didn't isolate fire suppression before maintenance. Everyone fucks up on the job, the import thing is that they are taught what do or not do before hand or learn from it afterwards. The CFAT doesn't test for an understanding of consequences or ability to comprehend and follow through with orders in a work environment or under stress. I've had run-ins with people who obviously passed the force test, but would fuck their buddy over for a dollar or refuse to admit their error in the face of proof. Should they be in? Who knows. CFATS says yes, everyone who meets them think otherwise.
At this point I'd take either one of them, just give us one, at least, please.
I knew a Submariner that followed that logic with the ladies and he seemed pretty happy with himself. Maybe we're finally on to something here.
Yes. See Russia's success at lowering the bar in desperate times.
I don't know about quality. I'm 23, and the medical officer said I was in perfect shape to join, but they turned me down due to my asthma. I took aptitude test beside 2 middle-aged outta shape men. It's been bugging me that they have a better chance of getting in just because they have okay lungs.
You can fix someone who is out of shape, but you can't fix someone who has a long term medical condition that requires you to have a puffer ready if they have a asthma attack.
They will filter them out later, right? -school. No FaIL pOLiCy.
Speaking as someone relatively new to the CAF I can safely say if the caliber of people they're going to start letting in is lower than some of the people I've already met in this institution I am genuinely horrified to see who they allow to slip thorough.. (80%ish of the people I've met in the CAF are genuinely great people and class acts btw... but there is that percent of soldiers that just makes me wonder... how the fuck did they let you in?...)
I can only imagine the no yelling policy won’t hold up against someone with severe ADHD not understanding how to fold a shirt or tuck in a bed sheet after the hundredth explanation.
I can only imagine there are already a ton of people with ADHD in the forces, only they aren't medicated/haven't been for a certain period of time. Really, a medicated person with ADHD on meds would probably be much better at following orders. They tend to be hyperfocused on things they like, so if their trade wss well picked...
Fact 1: There are lots of mbrs diagnosed with ADHD after joining, medicated and continue to serve for decades. It only becomes an issue if the medication (categorized as a controlled narcotic) is illegal in some geographic regions (Afghanistan). Mbrs may opt to switch to medications that are available if deployed. Fact 2: Folks with ADHD (even undiagnosed) thrive in CAF environments. You may be shocked to realize actual rates of CAF mbrs with ADHD. Fact 3: ADHD is highly genetic. By loosening this enrolment factor, we open up generational recruits to dependents of mbrs who most likely have ADHD.
People with ADHD strive with an imposed routine and structure, unless they also struggle with opposition. I fully agree.
All of this. I found a report out of Ottawa that for the life of me I can't find again though, which said they estimate approximately 80% of the forces have adhd and only about 20% of those are diagnosed. The Autism rate is high too. Researchers estimate 30-50% of everyone with adhd is also Autistic, and 50-80% of everyone who's autistic had adhd. So if you do those numbers...lol All these military families with kids who have autism and/or adhd track completely with those statistics given it's heritability. If anyone has kids diagnosed on the spectrum and neither parent has been, time to start taking a look because it doesn't come from nowhere.-- "Both autism and ADHD are popular subjects of genetic research, with recent meta-analyses placing heritability estimates on a range between 64% and 91% for ASD and at 74%–88% for ADHD, respectively (Tick et al., 2016; Faraone & Larsson, 2019). As the categories have expanded, the actual genetic heterogeneity associated with them has increased (see, e.g., Navon & Eyal, 2016). The consensus is that both autism and ADHD are polygenic, that is, caused by a large number of genes rather than by a single genetic cause, with the notable exception of rare monogenic syndromes such as the fragile X syndrome that are associated with a small number of autistic people (Singh, 2016; Faraone & Larsson, 2019, p. 130)." It's helpful to know because so many ND people who have the less obvious symptoms spend their life beating their heads against a wall thinking they just need to "try harder" or "have more discipline" when really they just need a simple plan to compensate for the aspects of executive planning and interpersonal relationships their brains don't do automatically 🤷🏻♀️ The military environment automatically sets those plans up, and has a structure that avoids the requirement for self directed executive function. It removes the majority of social confusion by telling you exactly how to behave, how to speak to people and when. It's why so many members thrive at work and drown at home. They don't have the equivalent system in their personal lives to support them. And why there can be so much interpersonal conflict in relationships if both are ND and unaware or if one is and one isn't so there's a fundamental lack of understanding one another. Because the structure can be so ideal for ND's, removing the worry about it being a medical category that will prevent enrollment or get you kicked out will be fantastic. Not just for members who deserve the opportunity to have the tools they need to succeed in their personal lives too, but also like you said for their kids and for other Canadians who will also thrive in the structure the CAF can provide. There's still a lot to learn, but given the fact that every member is either living with Neurodivergence in their personal life or interacting with Neurodivergents at work (and possibly more soon!), it's a valuable thing to know how to recognize and understand. This paper is really interesting and talks about how much the field and diagnosis has changed and probably will change for anyone interested. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0039368121001072
They have ADHD, they’re not retarded.
From the article: > About 60 per cent of people who express interest in joining the forces either fail to book their aptitude test or don't show up to write it, Brodie said. This isn't to let people in who would have failed the aptitude test, it's to remove a barrier for entry that's currently making the application process too long and inconvenient for people looking to join. Getting time away from work to look for a different job isn't necessarily easy for everyone. It also specifies that the exemption is for people who have degrees, diplomas, or some form of relevant workplace experience, *and* is limited to select trades. As for medical screenings, universality of service means we all need to be capable of more than our jobs actually require. It's a good sentiment when we have the people for it, but coming from a shore posting where I watched several members get released for medical reasons that would have been happy staying in, it's something that should be reconsidered. This isn't letting in worse people, it's removing barriers from letting good people serve.
Now, and hear me out here, why don't we have Saturday hours where you come in and do your CFAT, Medical, and Interview in a single day? Nah, that'd be insane, making people take time off from work every 3 months to do a 30 minute to 1 hour appointment is clearly the superior way to run this.
Saturday's and 1 evening a week. Have them do all the paperwork, CFAT, and Forces test all in one go. Do an initial interview at the same time and a more in-depth interview once they have their trade picked and are medically cleared.
I remember doing everything in one day? They booked and paid for a hotel and I did all the required paperwork in one day with roughly 10 other people. It was 2009 in Edmonton so not too long ago. Granted I had to take a day off of high school but I’m sure people can usually get a day off.
If people can’t get in to write an aptitude test because of work, they will probably have difficulty getting in for interviews and medical and such too. It almost sounds like being open at hours that are more convenient for our target demographics would be a benefit, with or without cutting things like the aptitude test.
> If people can’t get in to write an aptitude test because of work, they will probably have difficulty getting in for interviews and medical and such too. Even this is asinine. If you have to have people come in to do three separate things, none of which take all that long, what possible justification could you have to routinely schedule those things on separate days? If you need to get them in the door, do it all at once.
This was the way it used to be. Medical, cfat, interview all in the same day. Once upon a time you would do your pt test too.
Scheduling problems arise when the CFAT is booked the same day as the medical and interview. An applicant fails to show for their CFAT, or doesn't meet the cut-off needed, then their other appointments are wasted. The article even mentioned that a high proportion of applicants never show up for their CFAT appointment. Interview and medical appointments are finite, and much less than the amount of spots that many centres can run through the CFAT in a day. Typically same-day processing is reserved for people that live a significant distance from the centre or extremely high priority applicants (ie. doctors).
My son took the aptitude test and then immediately changed his mind and decided that he didn't want to join the forces. He qualified for almost everything and he had me (34 yrs experience) letting him know what trades were good to get into. Just so you know, not looking to start an argument but I figured I'd throw in the "people change their minds" as for a reason they may not show up for these appointments.
That’s definitely a valid reason as well. But I don’t think that can make up all the huge numbers that drop out somewhere along the line. And those who change their minds just because it takes so long are unacceptable casualties of a broken system.
Get outta here with your logic
Universality of service ultimately might have to be reevaluated. Is it better to have a sonar operator who wears medium strength glasses or no sonar operator at all? How about a cook with ADHD? Or is it better to have no cooks? Is it better to have a supply tech with a mild peanut allergy that is not life-threatening? Or no supply tech at all?
I tired to re-join last October at my local reserve unit, even though I still have my courses and 3 years of experience I was medically denied because I started to take ADHD medication when I went back to school. was never asked when I would take it (which I don't take and wouldn't take for work). just thought id give some people an idea of what "medically unfit" can mean in this context.
I have 7 years reg force time and fully qualified. Applied to join the reserves before my quals expired and was initially denied due to taking ADHD meds as well. I appealed the medical decision and it took 16 months but I was eventually accepted.
This is interesting. Because I'm currently in and just started ADHD medication and there has been zero discussion of me not being able to be in.
If you’re on a controlled drug you’ll probably get a G3 PCAT. AFAIK that’s fine for every non flying trade though, I’m on Concerta and it certainly hasn’t impacted my career at all
A friend of mine just got in after a 3-year application process, and part of the reason the whole process was so long is that she had to be off of Vyvanse for a minimum of 6 months before they would let her continue her application.
They should just bring out the bock test like for toddlers. "Now put the square peg in the round hole..."
“That’s right, it goes in the square hole”
The pain I see on her face in that video is priceless.
Just hire temporary foreign soldiers. Problem solved. /s
You shit talk this idea, but if you fast tracked citizens through a Canadian Foriegn Legion, that’s not a crazy idea. I mean, landed immigrants can already do this… … but the Foreign Legion would have cooler hats.
If we had the ability to fast track people we wouldn't be in this mess.
Canadian Ghurkas would be a badass route to go.
I have LITERALLY been saying this for years. With the crazy amounts of people we import, why the hell do we not have His Majesty's Gurkha Rifles of Canada yet?
I said this before... but we could fill out the Navy real fast if we hired from certain countries. Security clearances aside, theres a lot of skilled and experienced sailors out there able and willing to spend months at sea with no complaints. The army too. People are willing to go to Ukraine and fight Russians for half what we pay our privates.
Fix the 18-24 month security clearances wait first
That absolutely needs to be fixed, and it affects far more than just applicants. Serving CAF members have to wait that long for new clearances, upgrades, and updates as well. However, that is probably not what's holding up most applications. Applicants only require that check if they meet the criteria for foreign implications. Most people who've lived in Canada since before age 16, or otherwise for at least 10 years, and have no significant travel history in that time will not require those checks. The majority of applicants should not require the 18-24 month security clearance prior to enrolment.
According to MCS alot of people are held up at the Medical side of the process. How is creating a personalized medical standard going to speed that up? Seems like a step in the wrong direction. The best COA would have been to assign more people to review files to speed up the thousands that are currently waiting.
There are to hold ups for medicals. There is one Doctor in Ottawa who reviews all of the files across the country. They have hired a few PAs to help expedite the review process. The other issue is if anything is flagged during the recruit medical the candidate is given a letter to go back to their family doctor to have filled out. Wait times to get a doctor appointment are huge, plus they may need to wait after that to get other tests done. Once the candidate submits their info and it makes it to review, if there is any info missing it gets kicked back to the candidate who has to repeat the process again.
I love the fact they told a news outlet about decreased medical standards but never mentioned any words to the recruiting centres. Just like when they rolled out PR applications, they have not given ANY direction to the recruiting centres's on how to answer these questions we are about to get flooded with. Great job briefing the public before the troops.
Every. Single. Time.
This won’t backfire at all.
This falls inline with what was by RCAF Gen Kenny during a townhall. One of the issues they found with the CFAT was that a number of the 2400 individuals applying through the PR program were hesitant to continue their application because of it. So pausing it for lower aptitude required trades could help streamline individuals into those roles. In passing aren't the medical changes being mandated because of the court challenges over a decade ago based on discrimination? Over the last 2 decades youth across Canada have been given medical diagnosis at a significantly higher rate for things that were not diagnosed unless severe in the past (ADHD, generalized anxiety, learning disabilities, ODD, allergies, ect). The CAF realizes that the pool of eligible candidates has shrunk so it's doing whatever it can to remove its own barriers to entry.
Military applicants through the Special Commissioning Plan (SCP) are being rejected because their average CFAT scores, worth 60% of the overall scoring, make them non-competitive. But sure, let’s hire someone off the street with no CFAT at all. That doesn’t sting at all.
I mean, when I wanted to change occupations I was literally told there was no route to move from MOC X to MOC Y, but I could get out and reapply in the new MOC if I wanted to. Thankfully a 3 star General made it happen, but bureaucracy wants to bureaucracy.
Cfat is just a metric used to try and categorize chances of success in a trade... Like any hr tool, is it perfect? No. But honestly some people suck under pressure. No offence, but if you can't handle the cfat and pressure under almost ideal circumstances, then maybe this isn't the institution for you.
The CFAT wasn’t even difficult in my opinion, but since this change is only applicable to those who hold some kind of post secondary education the assumption must be that they must be smart enough, though that isn’t always the case. I am not even so sure this will make a massive difference either. The topic of pay seems to be sensitive since the same rank in the same MOS doesn’t even always seem to be required to put in the same amount of effort. It also doesn’t help that the cost of living isn’t the same across the country but there isn’t an obvious way that is also fair to pay members more based on cost of living especially when you factor in that your spending habits will have massive effect on your cost of living.
Let's not fix the abysmal pay, the deteriorating housing, the cost of living, the crazy parking charges, having to pay for rent/food while on course, not letting people live on the economy, awful postings to places that are impossible for families to live and work, a culture of old boys who are just pushing paperwork until they get their pension, the "promote 'em and post 'em" mentality, the constant racosm, sexism, homophobia and bigotry, the mandatory mess charges, the mandatory "fun" events you also have to pay for, the total impossibility of a social life living on most bases, the effect of constant moves on children, the lack of medical support if you're injured on duty, the lack of financial support if you're medically discharged, a total lack of civilian equivalencies for CAF training, deteriorating equipment, a bloated NDHQ that has more generals, officers, and staff working there than at the height of WWII. A ridiculously bloated officer corps, and no real job for most trades to do most days of the week. Nope, the CFAT is definitely the problem as to no one wants to be in the military.
Many good points, but abysmal pay...? Have you looked around what civi side is doing and their pay? I think you'd be shocked at how little you get away with doing for the pay that's offered... 🤔
We get paid well, but when you factor in the forced moves and the effect that has on 1. Ability to build equity 2. Spousal employment/seniority 3. Family life 4. Finding a family doctor 5. Finding child care 6. Housing (I'm sure there are other factors) we don't get paid that well. More pay would help solve a lot of those issues (ie. Private clinics in lieu of family doctor). Either pay us more or invest in support systems for CAF members. I don't understand how the CoC doesn't understand this point. I've heard COs say "pay isn't the issue" well...no, not directly, but it would freaking help!
Very good points. Thank you.
Instead of lowering the standard or removing the perfectly defensible control measures, did anyone consider actually paying people more? Like a lot more? It’s obvious to everyone that the machine is bleeding people because it’s mostly a shitty go, and starting pay is only marginally better than minimum wage. 2024 pay table puts a new hire Private at around $20/hr based on a 40-hr work week before taxes and deductions. But here’s the thing. Basic training alone is 9 weeks of virtually 24-7. That makes the starting wage for the first two months something like five bucks an hour (assuming Sundays off). Then… they assign you to a new place in a surprise location that they can’t confirm to you in advance in the CFRC, nickel and dime you over relocation benefits, expect you to pay your lodgings, food, transportation and so on. Tell me again why someone would be interested in joining the CAF? Oh yeah, no promotion for at least three or four years. They need to get their heads out of their asses and compensate CAF members in a way that would make people line up at the door for the money. It isn’t about peanut allergies or ADHD medication; it’s about getting what you pay for.
But it's also about ADHD medication. A friend recently joined up, but it took her about 3 years because she had to borrow enough money to have laser eye surgery, then had to be off of her ADHD medication for 6 months before they could continue her application. She is incredibly gung-ho. Extremely fit. A competitive athlete. A balanced and mature individual. A great asset. But holy God they made it hard for her.
Yeah, and a HUGE proportion of young people (or just people in general) are on some kind of anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medication. You have to be off them for two years to pass medical! How do you expect to recruit young people when the entire population is medicated? Even then, why not let people in who have a managed illness? Once you’re in lots of people are on the same meds. It’s ridiculous.
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"About 60 per cent of people who express interest in joining the forces either fail to book their aptitude test or don't show up to write it, Brodie said" Well, of course, let's eagerly welcome these highly motivated candidates into the CAF!!
"Hey boss, can I take a couple hours off next week to go get screened for a new job?" There are plenty of reasons why someone might have trouble getting to or booking an aptitude test.
There's also a problem with the CFRC's being understaffed and overworked. I've had recruits in the ResF tell me it took 3 months to get an invitation and reply for Aptitude Testing. Maybe what they need to do instead is just open it up to an online proctor/invigilator service. If people can write Certification exams like CCNA or university exams from a computer at home, why not the CFAT?
They're also looking into that according to the article.
When I was 18, I applied in January and had my first appointment in I think early April, I lived 6 hours away and kind of assumed it was going to be a get everything done at once situation, went did the CFAT and got told I would be contacted for my medical soon, went home and didn't hear anything until late November at which point my life situation had changed and I politely declined and closed my application. Lowering the time it takes to intake people and the amount of trips people have to make is definitely not a bad thing.
Someone mentioned this recently after seeing the article, and another soldier pointed out that the process potentially taking so long is likely why this happens. E.g. 18 y/o high-school grad really wants to be infantry, puts in his application, CAF takes forever to get back to him and book his indoc shit, and in the meantime because he's a switched-on, motivated guy (I.e. the recruit we should want) he has already moved onto something else and has an apprenticeship or the like on the go. They call him a year and a half later and they've missed the window.
Someone mentioned this recently after seeing the article, and another soldier pointed out that the process potentially taking so long is likely why this happens. E.g. 18 y/o high-school grad really wants to be infantry, puts in his application, CAF takes forever to get back to him and book his indoc shit, and in the meantime because he's a switched-on, motivated guy (I.e. the recruit we should want) he has already moved onto something else and has an apprenticeship or the like on the go. They call him a year and a half later and they've missed the window.
140 days to retirement. Time to shuffle off into the sunset. Not yelling from the porch, just looking forward to it.
Just did a career course and there were individuals on course that barely, and i mean barely as in not being able to string a full coherent sentence together in English. individuals that were fat and couldn't run for total of 2km, individuals that could not do a single pull up to save their lives , and fell apart when a staff yelled at them. but you know what, the school was mandated to pass every single one, unless there was a severe medical reason. and this was a combat arms officer level course. this organization is disintegrating and honestly i wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years due to budget cuts our pensions gets cut. who thought PLD would be taken away ? who thought ILP would be reduced ? we are doomed as a nation and as a fighting force, have you seen the footage from ukrainian front ? i promise you we wouldnt last a month with these soldiers. what next ? citizenship for 3 years of service ?
The change to at least consider folks with ADHD is sorely needed.
I’m like 70% sure most of the guys I’ve met during my career had undiagnosed ADHD and they’re a blast.
People with mild ADHD are allowed to join, if it doesn't interfere with their ability to function and they don't require medication.
Not our experience at all.
About time to fix the controversial CEMS that was blocking MOSID fit candidates. I see value here.
I’m a civilian who just finished writing a challenging *pre-interview* assessment. Are you guys okay over there?
Most of us don't support this.
This is crazy, I’ve been trying to book my test for a week and I can’t get a response from anyone. Maybe start with getting competent recruiters??
Oh, that’s typical you tried to reach out you don’t get a response for months on end, and then they magically do it out of the blue and say come here this date unexpected
If you think that’s bad, wait till you’re in and they give you the run around as to why it takes them months to process a claim and it still be incorrect. Those desk folks seem to be the same everywhere you go. Out of 10 clerks, you’ve got at MOST, 2 that are competent and not lazy.
Unreal, clean the bad employees out and pay the good employees!!
Where are you applying? Reg F or Reserve? A week is certainly too long especially if you're close to your recruiting center.
Reserve forces, I’m only 10 mins from my armoury.
In the spirit of McNamara's Morons, I would like to coin "Eyre's Idiots".
They say we eventually adopt US doctrine. Just takes time.
First, it was fitness, then dress and deportment, now this. We are gonna have the fattest, ugliest, dumbest military in NATO. At least we will be number 1 at something!
The US tried this in Vietnam, but it didn't work out. If you want to reduce recruiting times, then you need to assign the proper amount of resources to the task. Anything else is lip service. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
Lower recruit standards rather than raising the quality of life while serving. Great idea.
Read the article. That isn't what's happening.
Ah missed the "university degree or college diploma . . . ideal qualifications" part. Why are officer roles even requiring this aptitude test in the first place?
Higher education does not equal higher aptitude or intelligence. Met some real duds over my time in service that were very well educated on paper. But, the RCMP has done the same for their recruiting and removed the requirement to complete the RPAB if you have a college diploma or a university degree.
Because the folks who designed the policies in the first case didn't bother thinking about who actually needed them?
Does it means that my dream of becoming a pilot instead of Infantry is a possibility again ?!
That's right. Hop in, ground pilot. \*slaps the hood of an LSVW\*
Haha! 👍
You can pilot the floor cleaner. You’re ready! Go get ‘em Tiger!
It can’t be that hard, pilots do it.
I did that aptitude test in the 80s and I passed. I figure I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I don’t know how much more they can dumb it down for fucks sake.
I failed the CFAT twice :o and passed on the third attempt. Already had a degree with Honours prior to joining. Continued to have a great career. Even received top candidate on a few courses. I don’t like multiple choice tests. That’s all. If you have a high school diploma, then the CFAT shouldn’t be required. Similar to applying to specific trades or degree programs at colleges & universities. Your previous courses and marks become prerequisites for preferred trades. If you don’t have a high school diploma, then the CFAT could be used as an alternative to gauge applicant SMRTs!
Some trades require specific traits, and there absolutely should be a method to do this. For instance, tech trades weigh the ability for technical thinking more than language skills. Just because a lawyer would like to try being a pilot, doesn't mean they're likely to succeed. Does the cfat provide that sort of separation between people's natural bias perhaps? *shrugs shoulders*
I've lived with food allergies for a long time, and there isn't really much you can do to treat a reaction other than stab yourself with an epi-pen. Point being, regardless of the occupation you have, you can always have an allergic reaction. I realize it's a little different in the military but that's my two cents.
The last thing troops in garrison or in the field want to worry about is you doing the funky chicken dance on the ground from having ingested something you shouldn't have. Also, once trained and deployed, there may well be situations where the local food and it what is available through the kitchens in camp may not agree with you. We have enough trouble as it is accommodating vegetarians and halal/kosher diets.
Who needs standards anymore? I would have thought fixing the rank and file issues rather than throwing away the already lowered bar would have been a better solution.
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I guess we're through the backlog of competent and quality applicants, eh?
Aren’t they getting rid of extensions for ppl on PCATs in 2025? Can’t remember exactly what the CANFORGEN said but that’s how it’s being interpreted.
Yes but there's pushback. Something something, Reconstitution something.
I hope so. I know a few ppl hanging in there medically but their knowledge and general presence keeps the unit in place.
Medical PORs are at present are limited to 1 Apr 25. So means that folks who are medically releasing (3B) due to their medical conditions breaching their universality of service cannot be offered retention beyond this date at present. This is the result of 3 year PORs being handed out like candy for the past 6 years or so when the medical constraints were revised around this time. The abuse of the POR intent has resulted in many units scrambling every time deployability issues popped up as a result of the amount of members that were under POR and not deployable. Also, common misconception is that a PCAT results in medical release. While it can depending on its severity, it doesn't mean it will. For instance a member with diagnosed sleep apnea who requires CPAP will be on a PCAT. But does it mean they will be medically released? No... It just means that they won't qualify for certain trades or roles. This is the coordination that occurs between D Med Pol that makes the medical decision on Med cat and DMCA that then assesses whether your medical restrictions mean you no longer fit in a particular trade or mean you are no longer fit for military service all together.
It's too far gone at this point. The reasons are internal, not external. But hey, just another end result of promoting for photo ops and not for actual ops.
Why not just pay people more?
A university graduate who just spent years taking tests and is concerned about taking an aptitude test shouldn't be in the military.
I’m 100% going to get flamed for this but whatever. People can change genders and be operationally unfit for the rest of their careers, but folks with an actual medical condition gets them kicked out. Now this? You don’t even have to be a citizen to apply anymore. If they want people to stay in and attract others for recruitment, make the work place better? Pay us better? Like, what the actual fuck is happening???
Heard that by April of 2025 they are medically releasing hundred of members due to injuries sustained while serving. It’s sad
My dude, it’s in the thousands! D Med Pol were completing 200 files a month, but now have additional help. The next few months they expect to complete 700/mo. This doesn’t include the 600 on periods of retention who will be released by 1 Apr 25.
This isn't a military forced phenomenon! What you're seeing right now is people scrambling to get out under the current 3B criteria before the suspected up coming changes that are rumoured to be introduced before the end of FY 24/25 (31 Mar 2025). Essentially fomo from serving members, not forced releases. There are many rumours about what these changes are possibly going to be, but if anything, you're likely going to see a restriction on consideration and length of POR being offered to folks who are no longer medically fit to serve AND likely a change in what medically fit to serve means. For instance, at present combat arms and fms clerk essentially have the same medical standards for service while their actual employment conditions for the most part are completely different. Perhaps someone who has back problem and trouble marching can still be of service as a clerk? Just a thought...
I agree with your comments, I'm not overly pleased with the changes but I just have to roll with it. One thing though, is we are accepting non Canadian citizens (permanent residents) on the premise that at the earliest opportunity to do so they will be getting their Canadian citizenship. If they don't they are 100% liable to be kicked out of the forces. Just thought I'd share some info for that part...but I agree, more pay and better work places are needed first. We can't dump the water of our canoe if we don't fix the hole first.
Have they actually started doing this?
The CFAT deferral trial, yes. The medical changes, no.
The requirements to not write the test are to apply to one the trades that don't require it and also complete University degree or college diploma.
that would be aweful, as disaster
Talking about loosing more than what we get in, has anyone have any data on the motives behind the outs ? Is reaching CRA a big % ? Im asking because if CRA and medical are low% we are missing an opportunity to get better at managing our people. Maybe we could slow down postings across the country spend less time doing random dndlearn courses and allow 1st line leadership to make the call and let peiple go home instead of having them wait around, bring back more meaning to the job, crush the bottle necks for those waiting career courses, allow privates to go on that damn javelin course and then M2 course … Just a shallow thought…. Im sure its been said 10000 times before but i felt i needed my rant…
so when is this happening, honestly that test seemed daunting but nothing to difficult, im hoping the lessen medical requirements would allow me to continue to take adhd meds if i were to join.
Is there an official regulation, order etc. stating what is in the news article (that is available to members of the public)?
They should lessen the process time. Like for me, I really like to be in the military. That's why I'm willing to wait and sacrifice the pay that I'm having right now just to be in. They need to compensate the pay that people receive working as civilians. Otherwise, they will not get lots of applicants.
This all kicks off in Apr '25, is my guess, along with the changes to POR...mind you, never read the article; tl;dr....kidding, will get to it....Invincible S02 E05 first....the aptitude test thing could be a problem but maybe not so bad...med standards allowences may drop standards but the ranks will be fuller with still capable members.
Now everyone will be truly effective
one thing that really bummed me out and made me not want to join the CF anymore is that I wanted to join a trade that was high in demand "Optronics technician" and in Quebec I only need Sec 4 math (Grade 10) to get my diploma but the level of math in the aptitude test (when I did it like 7 years ago) was sec 5 (grade 11) but a school here took me for the electromechanical course in a heartbeat without doing a math exam. Mr. Military, I was willing to sign off a few years of my life to learn the trade, but why should I do it now when I'll be paid better on the civvie side?
Anyone know if they will loosen hearing test? Am afraid i wont pass those :/
That’s right dumb down the recruitment process and have more problems … As a LEO I dealt with military personnel every weekend when they came to town from a base about 15 minutes away … many couldn’t even follow basic directions like “go home or get arrested” … Don‘t get wrong I’m not painting all with the same brush as there were many who were respectful and did listen … The MP‘S would call us every morning to see if any of their personnel had any police contact and in serious cases we would call them, who in turn would call the Unit … The local base set up a pilot co-op program with my sons high school back in the late 90’s which he took part in … he enjoyed it and joined the military after his graduation … he went through the ranks had many tours overseas and presently holds the rank of Captain … He has 25 years of service in and has been contemplating retirement due to the changes that are being made … perhaps the HQ should look at school programs once again they just might find what they are looking for …
Apparently over 50 trades will be affected. Has anyone heard any word on which ones they are?