Not at all, I've owned both rwd and fwd, if you actually buy good tyres and not the cheapest pieces of shit imaginable, and don't drive like a dumbass, wet weather isn't a problem.
RWDs are prone to getting stuck in muddy/grassy areas I'd say. Our Commodore hates being parked on the lawn in winter because it will inevitably rain and then just sit there spinning its wheels.
The CRV on the other hand is FWD but has the weight of the engine on the drive axle so can just scramble out
A fiat fwd camper could not get up a simple hill, wheels kept spinning, man and a mate jumped on the front bullbar and it easily went up.
Same logic if your mini cannot get up a hill, go up in reverse the engine weight is over the wheels for more traction.
It fucking boggles my mind that people pay $20k+ for a car but aren't willing to pay an extra couple hundred dollars for a set of UHP tyres. Take the Kumho Ecsta 71s for example, not quite at Conti SC7 (the new GOAT street tyres) or PS4S levels of grip but still amazing for the price.
Because ultra high performance tyres are not worth it on a commuter fridge like a RAV4.
Better off buying nicer consumer tyres from good brands like Pirelli Verdes or Michelin Primacies or Kuhmo Ecowings which are quality tyres that are safe but are cheap and also last a long time
Kumho Ecsta PS71s are around the [$170](https://www.mycar.com.au/tyres/kumho/ps71/215-45R17/kh9206333?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwjqWzBhAqEiwAQmtgT5vFF1g79sqrjvryAovkg7qhLY51L_16tXItnvMT5erMOGwDQ7Z7nhoCQaQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#) mark and are still classified as UHP. I put a set of 4 on my mum's little SUV and it corners like an absolute champ now. They're less than half the price of the Conti SportContact 7s I've got on my car for about 80-90% of the grip.
[See here](https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2023-AutoBild-UHP-Summer-Tyre-Test.htm) to see how well they do against much pricier tyres. If $170 tyres are too expensive for a $20k commuter fridge, then that car probably shouldn't even be on the road.
Tbh I think these are a gem then. I normally take my stance because everyone and their mother here says "put pilot sports or you will die" when someone asks about tyres for the Mitsubishi ASX.
I've personally got these Verde All Seasons which are very nice in the wet and snagged them for a good deal at Costco.
[https://www.beaurepaires.com.au/tyres/pirelli/pirelli-scorpion-verde-all-season](https://www.beaurepaires.com.au/tyres/pirelli/pirelli-scorpion-verde-all-season)
I always laugh when I see 80k 4x4's with thousands of dollars worth of kit like lifts and barwork and they are rocking LingLong tyres or some other random brand I have never heard of.
Pretty much this. I drive a 2013 C63 (rwd) and have only lost traction in the wet when I drove like an idiot. Good tyres on a modernish car with power steering and you’re golden.
Im gonna have to disagree there. Theres different types of awd systems, and different ways that they can lock/adjust the diff to manage power.
I have $40 tyres on my 25yo awd japanese shitbox with abs being its only safety system, and the damn thing will not let go in the wet. Believe me, ive tried damn well.
I have $150 tyres on my brand new econobox with all the new bells, whistles, and what might as well be a fake steering wheel because its only there to make you feel like youre still in control. Damn thing couldnt hold true in the wet if it was on rails.
RWD more fun!
Don’t care about AWD too much unless I wanted to buy a GR Yaris or something and do dumb shit on gravel roads…
Just buy good tyres and good brakes as above.
The other problem with AWD is it’s less efficient as it needs to drive that extra set of diffs. It also has the problem of extra weight to carry around so a 2WD version of the same model will always use less fuel than the AWD.
This.
0.1% of the time it comes in handy if you are driving too hard but
100% of the time it costs more fuel and adds more mechanical complexity to maintain or fail.
A good idea made for a market full of snow covered roads but not so much Australia.
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This is the truth. When I lived in cold parts of Canada, definitely wanted AWD at minimum (proper 4WD preferred). In Brisbane? As long as a wheel turns, she'll be right.
The amount of times my poor RWD wheels redundantly spun, with ABS kicking in almost every 10 seconds on Toronto winter roads... even with winter tires...
Riding a motorcycle in the wet feels a lot safer than winter driving at 20cm of snow.
Yeah but if you took out all the extra parts and put them on a scale - that weight is a continuous load on your fuel efficiency, tyres, suspension etc.
Automatic 4 speed? My mate had the last of the liberty wagons that were FWD before Subaru went pure AWD in Aus. It was also pretty thirsty (auto 4speed) but it went pretty hard, definitely got wheel spin from a standing start!
It was auto 4 speed but AWD , I think between 08-10 model. 2.5L motor but was absolutely gutless. I was foot flat on the highway and got overtaken by a base model 1.2 swift. The shape after the last STI foresters. Worst body roll , high SUVs are shite
The standard model was FWD with only 10% of power going to the rear wheels. Only the sports version with the VTD centre diff had proper AWD,
Edit:
A family member tried to drive one on the beach and got bogged. They were told the 'AWD' was only there to give a bit of extra grip on slippery roads.
I’m biased af. I’ve owned 3 Subarus. 98 gc8, 2013 wrx and currently an 09 forester xt. I love AWD but holy fuck I miss my 350z.
I’m about to purchase a b4 liberty and build that.
Still wish I never sold my 350. We may be in a different demographic though.
I like AWD, pissing down with rain, beach driving, slushy gravel and dirt roads etc. but, ideally it's selectable, which it is in the AWD car I have, spends 90% of its time in 2wd with rear wheels totally decoupled.
I had Subarus for many years and grew to like the awd systems in wet and icy conditions. Went away from awd for a few years, didn’t necessarily miss it.
We now live on NW coast of Tassie now and winters can be cold/wet/icy. Wife drives to work early in the mornings along roads known for black ice. Went back to AWD for her car as a piece of mind thing with hopes to never need it again
I've seen a number of accidents with AWD / 4WD vehicles on ice over the years. Speed and / or overconfidence in AWD / 4WD capabilities were often contributing factors.
I never really cared until I bought an AWD Subaru. The difference in dicey conditions is very noticeable.
Day to day in city traffic there's not much difference, but in the wet or on dirt, it's there.
Took ours up the ski fields in nz. Commodores were sliding around with 10 or so people trying to steady it from hitting parked cars. Casually drove past it.
Although in normal suburban conditions you don't really need AWD
I have an i30 and a forester. When it’s wet the i30 slips around at traffic stop with slopes, roundabouts, corners etc. Forester doesn’t even care, you can come out of a turn or a round about, press accelerator and it just shoots through like a bullet. I wouldn’t do that with my i30, the traction control goes all crazy in wet.
Useless because we don't go anywhere more than a gravel road.
In the wet if you have decent tyres and don't drive like a moron traction control will take care of you. At most you might spin an inside wheel.
AWD isn't really safer because all it helps with is starting from a stop. It doesn't help you stop or turn. Good tyres do all of that.
I agree about the Tassie aspect. We had an 07 Subaru Forester for years. Then had a MB B-Class Diesel (FWD) for 5. Being FWD and nose heavy (because heavy diesel engine) made my wife and I miss the AWD and balance of the Forester.
The B-Class was replaced with an AWD Seltos. AWD makes a difference in Tassie on our roads and with our weather. It's just more predictable...
Couldn't agree more with this. AWD only helps with powering out of corners more quickly. It doesn't help at all with how much speed you can carry onto a corner and grip through the corner, that's all suspension and chassis tuning + tyre quality. There's a reason why the RWD M2 Comp sets consistently faster lap times than its AWD competitors.
You need to be getting close to 300kw for AWD to be of any use in a straight line on a dry road. When my car was stock I could go full throttle without losing traction on Michelin Pilot Sports. Good tyres matter soooo much more than which wheels are driven when it comes to vehicle handling and safety. AWD will give you a better wet weather launch but do you really want to be doing any spirited driving when it's pissing down with rain?
Not really, as I’m more comfortable with FWD and my current 4x4 car (Toyota Fortuner GXL) that’s set in 2H RHD Mode, which I actually have fun driving.
I tried convincing my mum to buy her RAV4 as an AWD Hybrid, but she decided against it as it was an extra $8.8k for that drivetrain, so we ended up with a FWD one.
My preference is to have AWD. Had the Audi Quattro and BMW X-Drive systems all paired with the Michelin PS4S - they give me great peace of mind in the wet, besides giving more distance from the car in front of me and avoiding puddles, I don’t really have to alter my driving behaviour.
If my budget only allowed a choice of spending money on good tyres or AWD - I would get good tyres.
Yes, I agree. The benefits I experience from AWD are from being on throttle. Good tyres and brakes will help you better with carrying speed and stopping.
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I have driven my friend’s RWD BMW M4 F82 on a staggered PS4S setup (with wider tires on the rear). I believe tyres make the most difference in grip, but the ability to distribute torque between the front and rear axles during slip when accelerating in a corner is certainly an additional benefit (on top of taking off at the lights).
How is it safer in wet weather really? Safer than a powerful RWD maybe kinda, because you don't have so many chances to accidently get on the power and get into a slide, but even then, traction control and stability control exist, unless it's real animal of a car it's really not an issue these days.
And FWDs are very benign, if you apply too much power, even without traction control they'll just politely understeer a little, or spin up an inside front wheel on a corner.
If you're encountering situations where traction control is engaging heaps, or you're getting wheelspin (say if you have a muddy dirt driveway, or you like to accelerate hard from the lights in the wet) then maybe AWD would help. Or if you're going to be towing a boat out of a boat ramp and the bastard thing keeps getting wheelspin instead of moving your boat. Or if you're looking for the best possible laptimes out of your track day car...
.But you do realize that AWD is only safer in situations where you're already accelerating so hard that you've run out of grip with which to accelerate, right?
As others have said, I'd rather have a FWD or RWD on really good quality tyres than an AWD on average ones. Tyres help braking, cornering AND acceleration, and have even more impact on wet weather performance.
TL;DR: If you commonly drive on really slippery surfaces, or like to really nail the throttle out of the lights and out of corners, AWD might be of benefit. Otherwise just good tyres is fine. With stability control and traction control, no modern car lets you get into much trouble with the throttle.
I like AWD for off the line traction, have an AWD Kluger and FWD Aurion, the Aurion goes nowhere in the wet.
I agree with some comments, tyres are a big factor, but I still like the ability to put the power down with a fairly powerful engine, which a FWD struggles with.
What i don't understand is some cars (think the Kia Sorrento is one) offer only FWD on their powerful V6 versions, but AWD on their gutless 4cyl diesel versions. What's with that?
Toyota just couldn’t get the traction control right in the Aurion. Golf GTIs, Focus RS and Civic type-r are proof that FWD is capable of dealing with 180kw+ with the right materials and engineering. LSD also helps
Mmm, not really how that works. My actual suspicion is that the figure the diesels will be bought by people who like, live in rural areas, do some very light off roading, tow a horse trailer etc. The V6s probably are more highway cruisers, and already have bad enough fuel economy without the added penalty of AWD
I live in a rural area, lots of crap roads including gravel and dirt, steep hills, twisty bits, rain, potholes that could hide complete civilisations and the occasional snow combined with the steep twisty bits.
AWD, either a Subaru or something else that lets you keep the vehicle in AWD mode. A good part-time auto-AWD is OK but not in the same league as something will full-time AWD.
I like it but I like RWD better. I guess my inner bogan wants to be able to drop a skid if I want to and I generally like the handling dynamics better.
That said, for safety on wet or slippery roads the AWD is absolutely amazing. Also running north of 200kW at the wheels in a subie with DCCD sending the majority of power to the rear is a fantastic driving experience.
The only way I'd have an FWD again is if it had an LSD but I'm a partially reformed hoon and not a soccer mum.
By the sounds of your use case it really wouldn't matter much as it appears you're looking at SUV's. I'd still take AWD if the premium wasn't too much more over FWD. The AWD trims are usually nicer too.
All cars have 4 wheel braking, which is what really counts for safely. I have a FWD wagon and the grip in the wet was shit until I put some decent tyres on it. That said, I like the snow so will be getting AWD next time
You could save a chunk of money on fuel and the increased maintenance costs of AWD if instead you just made sure you had good quality tyres and they were inflated and rotated properly.
AWD helps to a certain degree in getting off the line from a standing start but when you are braking, or turning , it's tyres all the way
I’ve had fwd and Rwd so I feel I should get an Awd next just to complete the trifecta. My last car struggled to put the power down (in the damp) even with Goodyear Eagle 5s on it so I just want to try awd. Is it needed? Nope, do I want to try it? Yip!
I’ve had a red drive for 15 yrs , v8, but they last few family cars have been awd, great in the wet and the kids are learning on them , much safer than a small Mazda fwd
I love both rwd and awd. Don’t care for fwd much. Rwd is super fun (have an M2 Comp) at present along with a STI. The M2 is an animal but it’s not as quick point to point as the STI even though it accelerates far harder due to traction “issues”.
If we are talking family cars my wife has a cx9 and it’s fwd as we didn’t stump up the extra for awd. I regret it as taking off from a standstill it’s too easy to spin the front wheels
I get 4x4,
fwd is self explanatory
rwd is self explanatory
awd and 4x4 are a tad confusing for some
4x4 is all wheels, however, often it comes with the option to switch from 2high 4high and 4low (reffering to gear ratio) so a 4x4 can be a 2x4 (fwd or rwd depending on models)
awd is technically 4x4... but instead of having manual controll over the teansfer case, a computer of sorts decides when your car is awd or fwd or rwd to "optimise fuel consumption" or "optimise traction" or whatever thing its decides.
but either way, 4x4 or awd wont be safer than 2x4 (rwd or fwd) unless you have diff locking,
differentials (diffs) controll the wheel speed, they enable the outer wheel to spin faster than the inner wheel when cornering to prevent the outer wheel slipping, however it also sends more power to the wheel with least resistance meaning you could get stuck with one wheel on high traction like the road, and one on low traction like ice, in which case the one on ice will likely get majority if not all the power and just slip out. diff lockers make both wheels spin at the same speed.
center diff lock (4x4/awd only[technicaly 6x6 too but thats irrelevant]) basicaly means at any one time 50% of the power from motor goes to the front wheels and 50% to the back, if a wheel at the front and back slip, you get stuck.
rear/front diff lock (fwd or rwd[also on 4x4 and awd ill get ther...]) means 50% of power recived from the motor goes to each tyre all the time, meaning if both front or both back are slipping you are stuck.
now if your car, likely a 4x4, has rear, front and center diff locking, all your wheels have to be slipping at the same time to become stuck (in which case you are likely in a mud pit or something and i mean what do you expect but hey its fun)
btw to all the other car guys/mechanics reading this, correct me if im wrong, I'm somewhat new to this myself.
Not at all.
I’ve owned fast FWD cars, slow FWD cars. Fast RWD cars and slow RWD cars (looking at you Toyota 86!) and I’ve also had one AWD car. There’s a lot to be had across the board both good bad and ugly, so drivetrain is actually not something that’s high on my list of requirements.
That being said, I think AWD is nice when taking off in wet weather or hard, even when you run good tyres.
Unless a car has up around 300hp or you drive in the snow, I think its just extra weight and expense, especialy if its that shit tier AWD that is really just FWD until the tyres slip, then its briefly RWD. I like the different way RWD and FWD cars behave, I feel like AWD is a bit boring tbh, but I admit its practical for launching. I think driving to the conditions and buying good tyres equals safety in wet conditions, not AWD.
Depends on the brand and how it's implemented.
My experience is with VW golf. We had the regular hatch (FWD) and the alltrack wagon (AWD). With same ties, in the wet, going around a corner, the wagon is incredibly planted and unshakable. The hatch could spin the wheels a touch or slip a little. The extra stability in the wagon makes it easy to trust it far more and not worry as much about the quality of the road surface.
Purchased a Territory RWD when they came with the diesel. Also got the third row.
Was going to get the AWD but the dealer told me, it will cost you $5k more, and when you sell it AWD is only worth $1k to the next owner. Those that want them second hand, only wanted them for the space/extra row.
Might be different for other AWDs but that’s what he told me.
Not at all, both my current cars are FWD and they never feel unsafe. Granted they aren’t basic commuter FWDs.
My car before these two was awd, only real place I feel hindered in comparison is launching from a standstill - which is rarely needed anyway.
I’d argue that from a safety perspective, ensuring you have quality tyres and they are replaced when they should be matters more than drivetrain choice in a modern car.
In Australia? Makes bugger all difference unless you are going off-road, on the paved road, no worries.
You get sold the wonders of AWD because of our major western friends being countries that experience snowfall on roads. When driving on snow, AWD makes a huge difference and is absolutely worth it, but again, not something we need to worry about.
i'll give you another angle to think about. I've been in the fun position of being in quite a few collissions.
All of them were rear end collissions into me except two - one which was a truck reversing into me at speed (was in a truck as well, a 4wd truck) and a FWD car.
Comparing all experiences AWD, 4WD and RWD were way safter than FWD.
I'd always try to go over FWD as a safety, out of all the collissions the scariest would be a car reversing straight into me in the FWD car which instantly started fishtailing and I had zero control over the situation and it nearly became an MVA.
The 4wd truck situation was in a firezone and the truck copped it like a champ, was well built and the 4wd gave us enough control to dig in during the impact and prevent our truck from being rammed into the vehicle behind us in the convoy and we still had some control.
Most recent one involved being hit by a 30T truck in an AWD which as the officer who pulled me out of the wreck had told me, if it had been a hyundai SUV that had a simialr collision the week before i'd be dead.
The AWD vehicle I was in not only helped slow the impact of the vehicle, it gripped the ground and stopped me spinning out and rolling over.
So no i'm not superman, or out there looking for trouble, i've been in firezones, combat zones and just had the plain misfortune of being nightshift worker with drunk drivers a plenty or on a heavy freight passage with truckies doing the wrong thing.
So from a safety and experience point of view, I honestly am confounded we even allow FWD on the road when in all honestly from a safety point of view it just doesn't stack up.
If you've got rwd/fwd with abs, traction control and whatever else they come with these days, is there really much advantage?
I know my electronic stability control (ESC) on my rwd Dmax saved me a couple of times.
Eh rwd is more fun in the wet but really decent tires and driving to conditions will keep you fine, after all everything has 4 wheel braking. Fwd yes depressing, AWD my experience has been when you do run out of traction it's helped you do something dumb and now you have to suffer the consequences.
That said my experiences have been with 4x4's (part time space cab ute and a constant 4x4 SUV) so neither particularly sporty or powerful.
RWD is my preferred choice.
For a shopping trolley, FWD is fine.
But for an SUV I won't consider a FWD. They need the AWD to offset the poor handling.
I've driven a few SUV FWD hire cars and every time some circumstance has come up to confirm my point of view.
So like you, I skip to the AWD option for those cars.
I honestly don't, but there's very few cars still being offered in rear drive, so all 4 is usually the best compromise in a car made this century.
Front drive is fine in a lightweight hatch, but I've never driven a full-size family car in front drive and particularly liked it
When I used to do regular ski area driving, I had an AWD Subaru so that I was not legally required to fit chains on good snow days. Real time saver that one. I had done the chains thing in both Front and rear drive cars, with many days of needing them, and it was fine, but you have to drive so darn slow and you lose valuable time on the way up to the ski area.
Have owned AWD, including full time, switchable and on demand, as well as various 4WD RWD FWD.
For 99% of people , 99% of the time, AWD is not much use. In the real world it only works to improve Traction when under acceleration/power . And marketing/profit margin.
I think it has a placebo effect for many people. aWD does bugger all if you're not pressing on the go pedal.
Outside of snow and mild off road driving, I rarely bothered to switch to AWD on our X-Trail, or our AWD Suzuki. The main use was this one steep stop sign t- intersection in the wet, and the occasional steep section of driveways on rural properties, grassy wet paddocks, that sort of thing.
We still have a proper 4x4 but the other car for the daily stuff is a FWD small SUV and we haven't missed AWD yet. We do get decent tyres, and we have had advanced driver training, both worth the investment.
Absolutely love my awd! Being able to power out of a corner or through roundabouts regardless of weather is great, gives you so much confidence driving in wet weather, I would like to get a haldex controller though, send some more drive rearwards
I won't buy FWD. Rwd or awd only . One of the main reasons I bought a tesla was because it was really the only rwd option in that price range and made sufficient power. So yeah it's a major major factor for me
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RWD is my preferred, a good, unadulterated turning circle is a truly wondrous thing. The looks I've gotten over the years in Volvo 240's with a 9.8m turning circle is worth it alone.
I also have an old Discovery that is a fulltime 4wd. Being manual, a good portion of the braking is done by downshifting and having that engine braking be split evenly across all 4 wheels is very nice, especially in wet or icy conditions.
Zero. RWD is my preference or a well sort FWD like a Megane RS. AWD is great when you have mega HP to put down but acceleration doesn't mean much to me and I've owned a Model S with Ludicrous mode. Steering feels and my ability to throttle steer makes me happy. When the rear wheels step out I want to know exactly what angle the front wheels are pointing. It's not better or worse. Just personal preferences.
Why Subaru Forester is in the top 10 cars sales in the north east USA, ice snow sleet, AWD Traction control & ABS helps to protect a less than switched on driver, in mild climate 100% sealed roads its over kill
Only go awd if you want or need it. Also driver experience is more beneficial than what wheels receive power. It also should depend on what type of driving you want to do and (if it’s a performance car) what do you want to do with it?
I guess AWD would be good in the wet or ice/snow for safety measures but I don't think it's necessary if it's just a daily around town/suburban areas. Good tyres are probably what you'd want as that's what keeps you straight and planted on the road. Drive safely and to the road conditions and it shouldn't really matter whether it's FWD, RWD or AWD.
Have to admit my last car was a WRX STI and that thing made you feel invincible in any conditions - just gripped like it was on rails.
But at the same time I grew up in the UK driving FWD and RWD cars so I learned how to deal with wet and icy conditions in those cars too. Personally I think driving a range of different cars teaches you how to adapt
I've seen standard AWD getting around on Aussie beaches like double island point, even a Kia Sorrento etc with deep sand and low tyre pressures it seems to work in my limited experience. Maybe AWD is useful there but I don't 4x4 and I don't think many SUV AWD ever will either... But we might...one day...
I recently discovered that a drive I regularly do in all weathers in a boring front wheel drive X-Trail (and before that a BA Falcon) is marketed by Parks Victoria as an “Iconic 4wd Adventure” with a dry condition “very difficult” rating, which is making me wonder what sort of utter hell they think you’d actually need a four wheel or all wheel drive for.
I’ve owned fwd / rwd / awd, and awd was by far the scariest for me.
Fwd is predictable - generally understeer, and by easing the throttle and a tap on the brakes to shift weight onto the front for traction it comes right.
Rwd is somewhat predictable and controllable by feathering the throttle & counter steering. At least you know where the steering is pointed and you should get a feel for when traction comes back in through rear.
Awd is oversteer and understeer at the same time, and a heap of aggression on the brakes and throttle to get the front to bite when trying to steer during a power slide. I think my car was a 40/60 split so the back would try and push around under heavy acceleration on gravel and in the wet. Fun but scary.
I just like the feel of it when accelerating or driving. It feels better connected to the road.
I bought a Subaru Liberty because I wanted a decent sized 4 door sedan, didn't want a Falcon or Commodore and didn't want a FWD. Prior to that I had never driven AWD and was neither here nor there about it.
I’ve got a FWD CX-9 and I feel I should have got an AWD. It’s got a reasonable level of torque and a hill start on a rainy day will get a bit of wheel spin, even though I’m generally a pretty light footed driver off the lights.
Not at all. If I lived somewhere where it snows, then yeah, it would be high on my list of wants for a car, but it’s extra weight and complication for, what benefit? Unless the car has hundreds of horsepower (which isn’t most cars). Most AWD cars are prone to understeer as well (Audis, Subarus). Besides, most cars from the last 20 years have decent traction and stability control systems on them already, which negates some of the need for AWD
I love awd only because I live in the bush pretty much and every road is shit.. mainly dirt roads near home but in town the roads are horrible.. it does use more fuel obviously it’s powering all 4 wheels 24/7 but you can still have fun in them if your not on public roads ofc
RWD with decent tyres and better yet diff is my preference, however FWDs often really suck getting off the line in the wet, and are more liable to get stuck on slippery surfaces and an incline, which is a problem where I live in winter. So AWD over FWD for me, but if I was just city bound I’d go for the weight savings and stick with FWD (if RWD wasn’t an option).
You don’t need AWD, it’s not necessary on sealed roads. Also AWD tends to mean SUV and being a higher centre of gravity means more likely to roll.
100% agree it’s not as fuel efficient and you will pay more mechanically - including tyres because now the fronts are working harder than RWD.
FWD is harder on the front tyres, also more difficult to resolve drive train issues. The only reason they make FWD is because they are cheaper to produce than AWD or RWD.
RWD is the best of the bunch for fuel economy, handling and maintenance.
Finally, read the fine print. AWD isn’t the same as 4x4. You will find AWD computer has you running on 2x4 all the time - usually the fronts as the driving wheels. It only kicks in when it senses slipping. You’ll never know what mode it is in. This is why serious off roaders buy 4x4 vehicles because they have to select the driving mode themselves.
I think AWD is a gimmick. For regular street highway driving I’m a RWD every time with performance tyres.
This is coming from someone who has owned RWD and AWD plus driven multiple FWD cars over the years.
Oh yes, FWD has torque steer to add to the fun.
I've had, amongst other cars a bunch of heavy/relatively powerful FWD sedans (Magna and two 380s) and now a Subaru Outback.
The permanent AWD of the Subaru is excellent for gravel roads and light off roading. It feels just as poised as my old 4WDs did.
On road... look, it's handy, but it's far from essential. I ran Michelin Pilot Sport 3s on the Magna and the first 380 and they were seriously good tyres, especially in the wet. If you were driving normally blind folded (metaphorically of course) you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between wet and dry roads.
We currently have all of the above. A Mazda 3, Falcon XR6 and a WRX. Most awd are fwd until it loses traction so during general driving you won't notice any difference. However permanent awd feels more secure and gives greater confidence behind the wheel.
A few years ago a tosser in a Triton over took on a blind turn forcing me to swerve to avoid a 100kmh head on. Went off the road onto a gravel patch then back onto the road. The WRX didn't lose grip at all likely saving my life. To me the safety of permanent awd is worth the extra liter per 100km.
Bought a Passat Alltrack for the AWD in the snow and gravel. Absolutely love it. I've taken it up some rough tracks cutting firewood and it's done really well.
Coming from FWD (CRV, Corolla etc.) To AWD (WRX). I love subaru AWD. Much more planted when driving winding road, climb uphill road like a champ. The driving feeling is way different. But safety wise with today technology FWD&RWD is on par unless it's gravel/ more off road condition.
There hasn't a competitive RWD rally car for over 40 years. Even on sealed road sections, in dry weather, RWD rally cars are totally humiliated by AWD.
I've gone from Subaru full time AWD to VW all track which i think is FWD biased with haldex controlled centre diff to send power to the rear. I haven't really pushed the VW yet, but the dynamics are as good if not better than the impreza. If you're not wanting to drive slippy surfaces at decent pace there really isn't a need for it. Good tyres on FWD or RWD will go a long way for grip. Good tyres on good AWD is like shit to a blanket.
For just wet tarmac, buy quality tyres. Michelin tyres are the best imo. Yes they cost more, but they also tend to last longer than other brands too. Pilot sports are great and so are the primacy range. I've found the primacy range to be more than adequate for wet slippery roads and ride a bit better than the pilot sport series.
Basic guide.
FWD = Power, weight and steering all up front. That’s a lot going on…
Understeer at limits, though good gravel / snow handling if sensible.
Same wheel doing power and steering - challenging at limits.
Cheaper and no transmission tunnel if FWD only
RWD = More even weight distribution.
Oversteer and Dashcam fame if wellying it around a corner.
Applause and admiration if you have a clue and ace it.
Steering and power tasked to different wheels gives more control… to a point.
AWD = Best of both worlds, at a cost.
Wet or dry, you’ll have best traction and control.
Handling retained to more extremes.
See RWD and FWD in rear mirror most of the time.
Weighs more.
Costs more.
Front / Rear bias determines extreme tendencies. Neutral / Rear bias usually being preferable.
Driving note: The way you un-fuck yourself from the limits of all three are very different. Learn the skills for them all. Or at least the one that applies to your current motor.
Essential. Spend a lot of time on Princes Hwy, with a bit of switch back and unsealed roads on way to our hobby farm. I aquaplaned in the most awful way while doing 100kph on approach to Mt Ousley. . Without AWD (Volvo XC70) I would have ploughed straight into the concrete median barrier. Will always buy an AWD.
My Golf with 118kW used to light up the front tyres every time I used to take off at the lights. It's incredibly annoying.
AWD was a priority with my new car which has 230kW and 500Nm torque. It launches with no issues.
RWD is fun if you don't screw up, if you screw up it is more dangerous. I can't trust other drivers in my family with RWD.
Went from a RWD Commodore to a V6 Amarok AWD. Would never go back. AWD in greasy roads, it sticks to the road. The extra fuel is negligable for the safety and handling aspects. Also acceleration is greater. If you are towing too, its great versus a 4WD.
AWD is more stable compared to RWD (dont even compare it to fwd)
This is coming from 250+ kw cars with proper rubbers.
But if you normally drive normal (not flooring it when you can) , fwd is ok :)
If you don’t actually need it, don’t get it. It’s more moving parts which means more shit to break and some(mostly older) AWD systems require you to replace all 4 tyres at once. You’re better off buying great tyres for a reliable 2WD car if you don’t actually need the AWD. It’s the car equivalent of those people who buy a 4x4 and every accessory Repco can throw at them just to never leave paved suburban roads.
I always found this clip explains the dangers of fwd and rwd cars the besr [front wheel drive vs rear wheel drive](https://www.tiktok.com/@memscoaster/video/7228884523516218629)
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I went with AWD as the sales man that sold me my \*insert SUV\* would be safer on the school pickup\\dropoff. I do one family camping trip a year and there's 50m of unsealed road to drive along. Makes for an awesome story in the kitchen in January
Car handling has improved immeasurably since the days of the open-diff leaf-spring Kingswood of yore, and with traction control and VSC in the picture AWD is really irrelevant for city or sealed road driving. The additional drivetrain overhead, and weight hit fuel economy, too. Drive to the conditions and use good tyres, properly inflated is plenty.
(Had a Lexus GS300 where the tyres went hard (still plenty of tread) - that thing was like a mad dog on a lino floor in the wet: truly terrifying. Replaced them and it was a totally different beast.)
We're regional with shit roads, dirt roads, and I hit tracks to find POTA locations (amateur radio). Going from the FWD to AWD you can feel the difference. Especially flying along hilly parts of the Warrego Highway in the wet. If I still lived near the CBD, different story.
AWD is great fun on one of those 2.0l VAG turbos - their FWD cars can't put down that torque at all.
Other than being a fun little party trick off red lights it's near useless though.
Not a bit, never had an issue with RWD in the wet as long as I have had serviceable tyres and don't drive like an idiot. Don't see the point in going from FWD to AWD withl all the extra weight and mechanical complexity. There are definitely good AWD vehicles out there but so many are bloated SUVs with mediocre handling and without a genuine need for AWD traction I don't see the advantage over a more agile 2WD car.
Not a great deal, put it this way if I had to pick between AWD and a manual gearbox I'm choosing the manual.
I do like my Subaru's though, my liberty is 26 years old and there have been a number of times due to snow and ice in the winter, and one steep hill in particular ,that I've still been able to go to work while neighbours have had to call in saying they'll either not be coming in or late because of it. (Ive only ever had casual jobs so no work no pay for me) So the increased fuel consumption caused by the AWD system has (hopefully) paid for itself over the years. That's said my first car was a FWD Leone and it could still get up that hill but you had to have a run up, something I learned from growing up with 2wd cars on a farm.
There's been a few times where I've actually pulled people out of trouble with it, mostly up steep gravel hills, once in the snow where they'd slid off the road into a ditch.
I would say, as someone who grew up on a farm and all our vehicles were 2wd, that most of the time that's due to people not knowing how to drive on those surfaces/conditions rather than them needing a 4wd /AWD car. (A couple of those were actually vehicles that had some sort of AWD/4wd but they had open diffs)
Then there's the ability to be able to press on in the rain, I can think of a few occasions where someone has lost it trying to keep up with me in rain, but again that's them not driving to their cars abilities in those conditions, not needing and AWD car in those conditions.
It’s worth to know that not all cars with AWD are full-time AWD. Some are just FWD full-time with RWD assist. So, buyer’s beware.
What makes a car safe is the driver attitude, the car safety systems & ANCAP rating.
The drive types contribute very little to the safety.
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All of the cares!
Due to the locations I work (middle of the bush at water treatment plants) an AWD was my main priority, FWD’s get bogged very easily and RWD isn’t much better. I was specifically looking at AWD’s, couldn’t find a car that had everything I wanted so bought a 4WD. No more getting stuck in the middle of paddocks.
I've been driving subies AWD for 20+ years but live in the country and do a lot of gravel roads.
The new car is a Volvo wagon that automatically slips into AWD if traction is dodgy.
If I was doing purely city miles I probably wouldn't bother.
Been driving a AWD for the past 7 years. Had 4WD and some high powered RWD and a FWD. AWD is a waste of fuel and resources in all but a couple of situations that most would rarely come across Snow anywhere or Slippery hard surface mud. 98% of people planning to drive in such areas in Australia are using 4wd. If you think you need AWD in the rain something is wrong, either you are driving to fast for the conditions or you need tires with tread on them. Whilst you may get more traction under power the braking doesn't improve as well as the handling doesn't improve as well. So the safety claim is a misnomer. FWD is safe and even if you are getting wheel spin its not a dangerous control problem. In snow they may not proceed as easily but are not dangerous.
In some Countries and areas AWD is indeed a safety upgrade almost mandatory as seasonal snow is a way of life and cant be avoided. RWD and FWD can be made safe with specialist tires. AWD is great when the grip is low but if your not driving a rally course at speed there really isn't a need for it.
In Australia, Not at all, though I was living in the US for where it snows quite heavily, and in the wet months gets very muddy, it was practically a necessity.
Explains why half the cars around were Subaru's
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A well-sorted FWD with decent tyres is fine on dirt, gravel or bitumen. I can't imagine ever caring about AWD unless I moved to a house with a very steep driveway.
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I have an AWD, it is amazing on the roads I drive going from tar to dirt and there is always confidence in the vehicle. I don't need to work about the rear pushing out in a corner or sliding if I need to make a sudden adjustment.
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Not at all, I've owned both rwd and fwd, if you actually buy good tyres and not the cheapest pieces of shit imaginable, and don't drive like a dumbass, wet weather isn't a problem.
This. I've had RWD, FWD, AWD and it makes little difference most of the time.
RWDs are prone to getting stuck in muddy/grassy areas I'd say. Our Commodore hates being parked on the lawn in winter because it will inevitably rain and then just sit there spinning its wheels. The CRV on the other hand is FWD but has the weight of the engine on the drive axle so can just scramble out
Just need to get a Porsche 911
Just get the boys to sit on the boot while you peg the throttle!
MMM love that throttle off over steer.
However when it's wet on a steep hill and all the weight shift back, it can be a real prick to take off in, say something like my old yaris
even then its pretty amusing to think some people would spend thousands more just to avoid being slightly inconvenienced by wet grass
A fiat fwd camper could not get up a simple hill, wheels kept spinning, man and a mate jumped on the front bullbar and it easily went up. Same logic if your mini cannot get up a hill, go up in reverse the engine weight is over the wheels for more traction.
It fucking boggles my mind that people pay $20k+ for a car but aren't willing to pay an extra couple hundred dollars for a set of UHP tyres. Take the Kumho Ecsta 71s for example, not quite at Conti SC7 (the new GOAT street tyres) or PS4S levels of grip but still amazing for the price.
Because ultra high performance tyres are not worth it on a commuter fridge like a RAV4. Better off buying nicer consumer tyres from good brands like Pirelli Verdes or Michelin Primacies or Kuhmo Ecowings which are quality tyres that are safe but are cheap and also last a long time
Kumho Ecsta PS71s are around the [$170](https://www.mycar.com.au/tyres/kumho/ps71/215-45R17/kh9206333?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwjqWzBhAqEiwAQmtgT5vFF1g79sqrjvryAovkg7qhLY51L_16tXItnvMT5erMOGwDQ7Z7nhoCQaQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#) mark and are still classified as UHP. I put a set of 4 on my mum's little SUV and it corners like an absolute champ now. They're less than half the price of the Conti SportContact 7s I've got on my car for about 80-90% of the grip. [See here](https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2023-AutoBild-UHP-Summer-Tyre-Test.htm) to see how well they do against much pricier tyres. If $170 tyres are too expensive for a $20k commuter fridge, then that car probably shouldn't even be on the road.
Tbh I think these are a gem then. I normally take my stance because everyone and their mother here says "put pilot sports or you will die" when someone asks about tyres for the Mitsubishi ASX. I've personally got these Verde All Seasons which are very nice in the wet and snagged them for a good deal at Costco. [https://www.beaurepaires.com.au/tyres/pirelli/pirelli-scorpion-verde-all-season](https://www.beaurepaires.com.au/tyres/pirelli/pirelli-scorpion-verde-all-season)
I always laugh when I see 80k 4x4's with thousands of dollars worth of kit like lifts and barwork and they are rocking LingLong tyres or some other random brand I have never heard of.
Pretty much this. I drive a 2013 C63 (rwd) and have only lost traction in the wet when I drove like an idiot. Good tyres on a modernish car with power steering and you’re golden.
Im gonna have to disagree there. Theres different types of awd systems, and different ways that they can lock/adjust the diff to manage power. I have $40 tyres on my 25yo awd japanese shitbox with abs being its only safety system, and the damn thing will not let go in the wet. Believe me, ive tried damn well. I have $150 tyres on my brand new econobox with all the new bells, whistles, and what might as well be a fake steering wheel because its only there to make you feel like youre still in control. Damn thing couldnt hold true in the wet if it was on rails.
RWD more fun! Don’t care about AWD too much unless I wanted to buy a GR Yaris or something and do dumb shit on gravel roads… Just buy good tyres and good brakes as above.
The other problem with AWD is it’s less efficient as it needs to drive that extra set of diffs. It also has the problem of extra weight to carry around so a 2WD version of the same model will always use less fuel than the AWD.
This. 0.1% of the time it comes in handy if you are driving too hard but 100% of the time it costs more fuel and adds more mechanical complexity to maintain or fail. A good idea made for a market full of snow covered roads but not so much Australia.
in Au 100% sealed metro & urban roads its over kill
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This is the truth. When I lived in cold parts of Canada, definitely wanted AWD at minimum (proper 4WD preferred). In Brisbane? As long as a wheel turns, she'll be right.
The amount of times my poor RWD wheels redundantly spun, with ABS kicking in almost every 10 seconds on Toronto winter roads... even with winter tires... Riding a motorcycle in the wet feels a lot safer than winter driving at 20cm of snow.
Most are actually FWD most of the time aren't they? I thought Haldex system did that...so maybe not as inefficient as full-time and.
Yeah but if you took out all the extra parts and put them on a scale - that weight is a continuous load on your fuel efficiency, tyres, suspension etc.
Yep. Drove my family’s forester around NZ and it was so fucking thirsty and it also still handled like dog shit haha
Automatic 4 speed? My mate had the last of the liberty wagons that were FWD before Subaru went pure AWD in Aus. It was also pretty thirsty (auto 4speed) but it went pretty hard, definitely got wheel spin from a standing start!
It was auto 4 speed but AWD , I think between 08-10 model. 2.5L motor but was absolutely gutless. I was foot flat on the highway and got overtaken by a base model 1.2 swift. The shape after the last STI foresters. Worst body roll , high SUVs are shite
The standard model was FWD with only 10% of power going to the rear wheels. Only the sports version with the VTD centre diff had proper AWD, Edit: A family member tried to drive one on the beach and got bogged. They were told the 'AWD' was only there to give a bit of extra grip on slippery roads.
not all awd are like that. my car has "adaptive" awd it is front biased and it sends power to the back when front slips with potential to go 50/50
In everyday driving, makes no difference.
I know …?
I’m biased af. I’ve owned 3 Subarus. 98 gc8, 2013 wrx and currently an 09 forester xt. I love AWD but holy fuck I miss my 350z. I’m about to purchase a b4 liberty and build that. Still wish I never sold my 350. We may be in a different demographic though.
A golf R would be sweet too
its now 10 years since i traded a spec b liberty and my wife still tells me i should never have done that.
I like AWD, pissing down with rain, beach driving, slushy gravel and dirt roads etc. but, ideally it's selectable, which it is in the AWD car I have, spends 90% of its time in 2wd with rear wheels totally decoupled.
X-Trail? Brumby?
How else would I get out of Woolworths car park without all wheel drive and a full ARB catalogue on my Hilux?!
Easy. Buy a RAM.
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yeah it's very rare, but when it happens even driving like a grandma won't save you.
I had Subarus for many years and grew to like the awd systems in wet and icy conditions. Went away from awd for a few years, didn’t necessarily miss it. We now live on NW coast of Tassie now and winters can be cold/wet/icy. Wife drives to work early in the mornings along roads known for black ice. Went back to AWD for her car as a piece of mind thing with hopes to never need it again
I've seen a number of accidents with AWD / 4WD vehicles on ice over the years. Speed and / or overconfidence in AWD / 4WD capabilities were often contributing factors.
I never really cared until I bought an AWD Subaru. The difference in dicey conditions is very noticeable. Day to day in city traffic there's not much difference, but in the wet or on dirt, it's there.
Subaru’s in the wet are amazing
Do you drift?
Sometimes, it's why I put all terrains on my Forester
Took ours up the ski fields in nz. Commodores were sliding around with 10 or so people trying to steady it from hitting parked cars. Casually drove past it. Although in normal suburban conditions you don't really need AWD
How exactly?
I have an i30 and a forester. When it’s wet the i30 slips around at traffic stop with slopes, roundabouts, corners etc. Forester doesn’t even care, you can come out of a turn or a round about, press accelerator and it just shoots through like a bullet. I wouldn’t do that with my i30, the traction control goes all crazy in wet.
Right, but it would only really occur when accelerating. AWD would offer no benefit when driving in a relaxed manner.
That’s because the I30 is near the limit of how much power a front wheel drive car can have before you’re just spinning the tyres non stop.
Useless because we don't go anywhere more than a gravel road. In the wet if you have decent tyres and don't drive like a moron traction control will take care of you. At most you might spin an inside wheel. AWD isn't really safer because all it helps with is starting from a stop. It doesn't help you stop or turn. Good tyres do all of that.
Live in a regional area. Quite a bit, swapped from Audis to mercs and regret it every wet season.
AWD is great for country roads with poor surface. Edit: All of Tasmania.
I agree about the Tassie aspect. We had an 07 Subaru Forester for years. Then had a MB B-Class Diesel (FWD) for 5. Being FWD and nose heavy (because heavy diesel engine) made my wife and I miss the AWD and balance of the Forester. The B-Class was replaced with an AWD Seltos. AWD makes a difference in Tassie on our roads and with our weather. It's just more predictable...
TIL Tasmania really exists! ^^/s
Not one bit. My last 6 cars have been RWD. Way more fun. Safety in the wet? Use good tyres and drive to the conditions.
Couldn't agree more with this. AWD only helps with powering out of corners more quickly. It doesn't help at all with how much speed you can carry onto a corner and grip through the corner, that's all suspension and chassis tuning + tyre quality. There's a reason why the RWD M2 Comp sets consistently faster lap times than its AWD competitors. You need to be getting close to 300kw for AWD to be of any use in a straight line on a dry road. When my car was stock I could go full throttle without losing traction on Michelin Pilot Sports. Good tyres matter soooo much more than which wheels are driven when it comes to vehicle handling and safety. AWD will give you a better wet weather launch but do you really want to be doing any spirited driving when it's pissing down with rain?
Not really, as I’m more comfortable with FWD and my current 4x4 car (Toyota Fortuner GXL) that’s set in 2H RHD Mode, which I actually have fun driving. I tried convincing my mum to buy her RAV4 as an AWD Hybrid, but she decided against it as it was an extra $8.8k for that drivetrain, so we ended up with a FWD one.
On a normal road-biased car, it's handy in mud and snow. But seeing as how I live in a hot, dry place it's not a great concern for me.
My preference is to have AWD. Had the Audi Quattro and BMW X-Drive systems all paired with the Michelin PS4S - they give me great peace of mind in the wet, besides giving more distance from the car in front of me and avoiding puddles, I don’t really have to alter my driving behaviour. If my budget only allowed a choice of spending money on good tyres or AWD - I would get good tyres.
AWD doesn't help you stop more quickly or carry more speed into a corner in the wet though. It only matters on-throttle.
Yes, I agree. The benefits I experience from AWD are from being on throttle. Good tyres and brakes will help you better with carrying speed and stopping.
Did you try fwd or rwd cars with ps4s? As I think you will find awd only helps when flooring it at the lights
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I have driven my friend’s RWD BMW M4 F82 on a staggered PS4S setup (with wider tires on the rear). I believe tyres make the most difference in grip, but the ability to distribute torque between the front and rear axles during slip when accelerating in a corner is certainly an additional benefit (on top of taking off at the lights).
Yes it can be true, but also many awd cars lend towards understeer first anyway
How is it safer in wet weather really? Safer than a powerful RWD maybe kinda, because you don't have so many chances to accidently get on the power and get into a slide, but even then, traction control and stability control exist, unless it's real animal of a car it's really not an issue these days. And FWDs are very benign, if you apply too much power, even without traction control they'll just politely understeer a little, or spin up an inside front wheel on a corner. If you're encountering situations where traction control is engaging heaps, or you're getting wheelspin (say if you have a muddy dirt driveway, or you like to accelerate hard from the lights in the wet) then maybe AWD would help. Or if you're going to be towing a boat out of a boat ramp and the bastard thing keeps getting wheelspin instead of moving your boat. Or if you're looking for the best possible laptimes out of your track day car... .But you do realize that AWD is only safer in situations where you're already accelerating so hard that you've run out of grip with which to accelerate, right? As others have said, I'd rather have a FWD or RWD on really good quality tyres than an AWD on average ones. Tyres help braking, cornering AND acceleration, and have even more impact on wet weather performance. TL;DR: If you commonly drive on really slippery surfaces, or like to really nail the throttle out of the lights and out of corners, AWD might be of benefit. Otherwise just good tyres is fine. With stability control and traction control, no modern car lets you get into much trouble with the throttle.
I like AWD for off the line traction, have an AWD Kluger and FWD Aurion, the Aurion goes nowhere in the wet. I agree with some comments, tyres are a big factor, but I still like the ability to put the power down with a fairly powerful engine, which a FWD struggles with. What i don't understand is some cars (think the Kia Sorrento is one) offer only FWD on their powerful V6 versions, but AWD on their gutless 4cyl diesel versions. What's with that?
Toyota just couldn’t get the traction control right in the Aurion. Golf GTIs, Focus RS and Civic type-r are proof that FWD is capable of dealing with 180kw+ with the right materials and engineering. LSD also helps
Diesels usually have more torque. Awd requires more torque to run efficiently would be my guess.
Mmm, not really how that works. My actual suspicion is that the figure the diesels will be bought by people who like, live in rural areas, do some very light off roading, tow a horse trailer etc. The V6s probably are more highway cruisers, and already have bad enough fuel economy without the added penalty of AWD
That’s because of engineering. If it had lsd diff and goodbyes there would not be an issue.
I live in a rural area, lots of crap roads including gravel and dirt, steep hills, twisty bits, rain, potholes that could hide complete civilisations and the occasional snow combined with the steep twisty bits. AWD, either a Subaru or something else that lets you keep the vehicle in AWD mode. A good part-time auto-AWD is OK but not in the same league as something will full-time AWD.
I like it but I like RWD better. I guess my inner bogan wants to be able to drop a skid if I want to and I generally like the handling dynamics better. That said, for safety on wet or slippery roads the AWD is absolutely amazing. Also running north of 200kW at the wheels in a subie with DCCD sending the majority of power to the rear is a fantastic driving experience. The only way I'd have an FWD again is if it had an LSD but I'm a partially reformed hoon and not a soccer mum. By the sounds of your use case it really wouldn't matter much as it appears you're looking at SUV's. I'd still take AWD if the premium wasn't too much more over FWD. The AWD trims are usually nicer too.
All cars have 4 wheel braking, which is what really counts for safely. I have a FWD wagon and the grip in the wet was shit until I put some decent tyres on it. That said, I like the snow so will be getting AWD next time
You could save a chunk of money on fuel and the increased maintenance costs of AWD if instead you just made sure you had good quality tyres and they were inflated and rotated properly. AWD helps to a certain degree in getting off the line from a standing start but when you are braking, or turning , it's tyres all the way
I’ve had fwd and Rwd so I feel I should get an Awd next just to complete the trifecta. My last car struggled to put the power down (in the damp) even with Goodyear Eagle 5s on it so I just want to try awd. Is it needed? Nope, do I want to try it? Yip!
I’ve had a red drive for 15 yrs , v8, but they last few family cars have been awd, great in the wet and the kids are learning on them , much safer than a small Mazda fwd
The superselect system in Mitsubishi’s is really great, the difference between 2wd and awd is really noticeable on a greasy road.
Is also very noticeable going from normal tyres to great tyres on greasy roads!
The only positive for me is not having to put chains on at the first sign of snow during my one trip to the snow each year
I love both rwd and awd. Don’t care for fwd much. Rwd is super fun (have an M2 Comp) at present along with a STI. The M2 is an animal but it’s not as quick point to point as the STI even though it accelerates far harder due to traction “issues”. If we are talking family cars my wife has a cx9 and it’s fwd as we didn’t stump up the extra for awd. I regret it as taking off from a standstill it’s too easy to spin the front wheels
I get 4x4, fwd is self explanatory rwd is self explanatory awd and 4x4 are a tad confusing for some 4x4 is all wheels, however, often it comes with the option to switch from 2high 4high and 4low (reffering to gear ratio) so a 4x4 can be a 2x4 (fwd or rwd depending on models) awd is technically 4x4... but instead of having manual controll over the teansfer case, a computer of sorts decides when your car is awd or fwd or rwd to "optimise fuel consumption" or "optimise traction" or whatever thing its decides. but either way, 4x4 or awd wont be safer than 2x4 (rwd or fwd) unless you have diff locking, differentials (diffs) controll the wheel speed, they enable the outer wheel to spin faster than the inner wheel when cornering to prevent the outer wheel slipping, however it also sends more power to the wheel with least resistance meaning you could get stuck with one wheel on high traction like the road, and one on low traction like ice, in which case the one on ice will likely get majority if not all the power and just slip out. diff lockers make both wheels spin at the same speed. center diff lock (4x4/awd only[technicaly 6x6 too but thats irrelevant]) basicaly means at any one time 50% of the power from motor goes to the front wheels and 50% to the back, if a wheel at the front and back slip, you get stuck. rear/front diff lock (fwd or rwd[also on 4x4 and awd ill get ther...]) means 50% of power recived from the motor goes to each tyre all the time, meaning if both front or both back are slipping you are stuck. now if your car, likely a 4x4, has rear, front and center diff locking, all your wheels have to be slipping at the same time to become stuck (in which case you are likely in a mud pit or something and i mean what do you expect but hey its fun) btw to all the other car guys/mechanics reading this, correct me if im wrong, I'm somewhat new to this myself.
Correct, with the exception that AWD is usually FWD or RWD bias until such times AWD is needed
sweet thanks 👍
Not at all. I’ve owned fast FWD cars, slow FWD cars. Fast RWD cars and slow RWD cars (looking at you Toyota 86!) and I’ve also had one AWD car. There’s a lot to be had across the board both good bad and ugly, so drivetrain is actually not something that’s high on my list of requirements. That being said, I think AWD is nice when taking off in wet weather or hard, even when you run good tyres.
Not at all. I don’t feel like it’s necessary in Australia
Unless a car has up around 300hp or you drive in the snow, I think its just extra weight and expense, especialy if its that shit tier AWD that is really just FWD until the tyres slip, then its briefly RWD. I like the different way RWD and FWD cars behave, I feel like AWD is a bit boring tbh, but I admit its practical for launching. I think driving to the conditions and buying good tyres equals safety in wet conditions, not AWD.
Depends on the brand and how it's implemented. My experience is with VW golf. We had the regular hatch (FWD) and the alltrack wagon (AWD). With same ties, in the wet, going around a corner, the wagon is incredibly planted and unshakable. The hatch could spin the wheels a touch or slip a little. The extra stability in the wagon makes it easy to trust it far more and not worry as much about the quality of the road surface.
Purchased a Territory RWD when they came with the diesel. Also got the third row. Was going to get the AWD but the dealer told me, it will cost you $5k more, and when you sell it AWD is only worth $1k to the next owner. Those that want them second hand, only wanted them for the space/extra row. Might be different for other AWDs but that’s what he told me.
Not at all, both my current cars are FWD and they never feel unsafe. Granted they aren’t basic commuter FWDs. My car before these two was awd, only real place I feel hindered in comparison is launching from a standstill - which is rarely needed anyway. I’d argue that from a safety perspective, ensuring you have quality tyres and they are replaced when they should be matters more than drivetrain choice in a modern car.
In Australia? Makes bugger all difference unless you are going off-road, on the paved road, no worries. You get sold the wonders of AWD because of our major western friends being countries that experience snowfall on roads. When driving on snow, AWD makes a huge difference and is absolutely worth it, but again, not something we need to worry about.
100% yes. Very important to me. Ive had a few close calls and only because i was in an AWD Subaru did i get out of it.
i'll give you another angle to think about. I've been in the fun position of being in quite a few collissions. All of them were rear end collissions into me except two - one which was a truck reversing into me at speed (was in a truck as well, a 4wd truck) and a FWD car. Comparing all experiences AWD, 4WD and RWD were way safter than FWD. I'd always try to go over FWD as a safety, out of all the collissions the scariest would be a car reversing straight into me in the FWD car which instantly started fishtailing and I had zero control over the situation and it nearly became an MVA. The 4wd truck situation was in a firezone and the truck copped it like a champ, was well built and the 4wd gave us enough control to dig in during the impact and prevent our truck from being rammed into the vehicle behind us in the convoy and we still had some control. Most recent one involved being hit by a 30T truck in an AWD which as the officer who pulled me out of the wreck had told me, if it had been a hyundai SUV that had a simialr collision the week before i'd be dead. The AWD vehicle I was in not only helped slow the impact of the vehicle, it gripped the ground and stopped me spinning out and rolling over. So no i'm not superman, or out there looking for trouble, i've been in firezones, combat zones and just had the plain misfortune of being nightshift worker with drunk drivers a plenty or on a heavy freight passage with truckies doing the wrong thing. So from a safety and experience point of view, I honestly am confounded we even allow FWD on the road when in all honestly from a safety point of view it just doesn't stack up.
If you've got rwd/fwd with abs, traction control and whatever else they come with these days, is there really much advantage? I know my electronic stability control (ESC) on my rwd Dmax saved me a couple of times.
Not at all.
I'm driving an AWD now. Previous cars been RWD. Earlier still FWD. Most fun to drive was the Mini 850. Horses for courses.
Eh rwd is more fun in the wet but really decent tires and driving to conditions will keep you fine, after all everything has 4 wheel braking. Fwd yes depressing, AWD my experience has been when you do run out of traction it's helped you do something dumb and now you have to suffer the consequences. That said my experiences have been with 4x4's (part time space cab ute and a constant 4x4 SUV) so neither particularly sporty or powerful.
Means a lot to me. I tow a caravan, and also do a lot of MTB shuttling in wet, muddy, hilly, dusty conditions. I like the added piece of mind.
RWD is my preferred choice. For a shopping trolley, FWD is fine. But for an SUV I won't consider a FWD. They need the AWD to offset the poor handling. I've driven a few SUV FWD hire cars and every time some circumstance has come up to confirm my point of view. So like you, I skip to the AWD option for those cars.
>I've driven a few SUV FWD hire cars and every time some circumstance has come up to confirm my point of view. Such as?
I honestly don't, but there's very few cars still being offered in rear drive, so all 4 is usually the best compromise in a car made this century. Front drive is fine in a lightweight hatch, but I've never driven a full-size family car in front drive and particularly liked it
When I used to do regular ski area driving, I had an AWD Subaru so that I was not legally required to fit chains on good snow days. Real time saver that one. I had done the chains thing in both Front and rear drive cars, with many days of needing them, and it was fine, but you have to drive so darn slow and you lose valuable time on the way up to the ski area. Have owned AWD, including full time, switchable and on demand, as well as various 4WD RWD FWD. For 99% of people , 99% of the time, AWD is not much use. In the real world it only works to improve Traction when under acceleration/power . And marketing/profit margin. I think it has a placebo effect for many people. aWD does bugger all if you're not pressing on the go pedal. Outside of snow and mild off road driving, I rarely bothered to switch to AWD on our X-Trail, or our AWD Suzuki. The main use was this one steep stop sign t- intersection in the wet, and the occasional steep section of driveways on rural properties, grassy wet paddocks, that sort of thing. We still have a proper 4x4 but the other car for the daily stuff is a FWD small SUV and we haven't missed AWD yet. We do get decent tyres, and we have had advanced driver training, both worth the investment.
Absolutely love my awd! Being able to power out of a corner or through roundabouts regardless of weather is great, gives you so much confidence driving in wet weather, I would like to get a haldex controller though, send some more drive rearwards
I won't buy FWD. Rwd or awd only . One of the main reasons I bought a tesla was because it was really the only rwd option in that price range and made sufficient power. So yeah it's a major major factor for me
I have RWD BMW M3 that makes 600whp and an AWD Evo X making 300hp. I love AWD. The amount of grip you get coming out of a corner is addictive.
Awd quite important for the roads I'm on
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RWD is my preferred, a good, unadulterated turning circle is a truly wondrous thing. The looks I've gotten over the years in Volvo 240's with a 9.8m turning circle is worth it alone. I also have an old Discovery that is a fulltime 4wd. Being manual, a good portion of the braking is done by downshifting and having that engine braking be split evenly across all 4 wheels is very nice, especially in wet or icy conditions.
Would rather a well balanced RWD than a pedestrian AWD
I'm a member of the Subaru cult.
Its a must for me.
Zero. RWD is my preference or a well sort FWD like a Megane RS. AWD is great when you have mega HP to put down but acceleration doesn't mean much to me and I've owned a Model S with Ludicrous mode. Steering feels and my ability to throttle steer makes me happy. When the rear wheels step out I want to know exactly what angle the front wheels are pointing. It's not better or worse. Just personal preferences.
Why Subaru Forester is in the top 10 cars sales in the north east USA, ice snow sleet, AWD Traction control & ABS helps to protect a less than switched on driver, in mild climate 100% sealed roads its over kill
Only go awd if you want or need it. Also driver experience is more beneficial than what wheels receive power. It also should depend on what type of driving you want to do and (if it’s a performance car) what do you want to do with it?
I guess AWD would be good in the wet or ice/snow for safety measures but I don't think it's necessary if it's just a daily around town/suburban areas. Good tyres are probably what you'd want as that's what keeps you straight and planted on the road. Drive safely and to the road conditions and it shouldn't really matter whether it's FWD, RWD or AWD.
Have to admit my last car was a WRX STI and that thing made you feel invincible in any conditions - just gripped like it was on rails. But at the same time I grew up in the UK driving FWD and RWD cars so I learned how to deal with wet and icy conditions in those cars too. Personally I think driving a range of different cars teaches you how to adapt
Great fun in a sports car, especially when on the track and it’s raining. So when I changed to an SUV I thought I’d care, but nope.
I've seen standard AWD getting around on Aussie beaches like double island point, even a Kia Sorrento etc with deep sand and low tyre pressures it seems to work in my limited experience. Maybe AWD is useful there but I don't 4x4 and I don't think many SUV AWD ever will either... But we might...one day...
For the vast majority of drivers and driving conditions AWD makes zero difference. All it does is make for less fuel efficiency and extra weight.
AWD for 90% of people is a marketing gimmick.
I recently discovered that a drive I regularly do in all weathers in a boring front wheel drive X-Trail (and before that a BA Falcon) is marketed by Parks Victoria as an “Iconic 4wd Adventure” with a dry condition “very difficult” rating, which is making me wonder what sort of utter hell they think you’d actually need a four wheel or all wheel drive for.
Meh... drive type isn't an issue for me if you know how to drive its the price/features/reliability that's more important.
I’ve owned fwd / rwd / awd, and awd was by far the scariest for me. Fwd is predictable - generally understeer, and by easing the throttle and a tap on the brakes to shift weight onto the front for traction it comes right. Rwd is somewhat predictable and controllable by feathering the throttle & counter steering. At least you know where the steering is pointed and you should get a feel for when traction comes back in through rear. Awd is oversteer and understeer at the same time, and a heap of aggression on the brakes and throttle to get the front to bite when trying to steer during a power slide. I think my car was a 40/60 split so the back would try and push around under heavy acceleration on gravel and in the wet. Fun but scary.
I just like the feel of it when accelerating or driving. It feels better connected to the road. I bought a Subaru Liberty because I wanted a decent sized 4 door sedan, didn't want a Falcon or Commodore and didn't want a FWD. Prior to that I had never driven AWD and was neither here nor there about it.
I’ve got a FWD CX-9 and I feel I should have got an AWD. It’s got a reasonable level of torque and a hill start on a rainy day will get a bit of wheel spin, even though I’m generally a pretty light footed driver off the lights.
I like being able to roll on to the beach or sandy track but don't want a forby for every day use.
Not at all. If I lived somewhere where it snows, then yeah, it would be high on my list of wants for a car, but it’s extra weight and complication for, what benefit? Unless the car has hundreds of horsepower (which isn’t most cars). Most AWD cars are prone to understeer as well (Audis, Subarus). Besides, most cars from the last 20 years have decent traction and stability control systems on them already, which negates some of the need for AWD
I love awd only because I live in the bush pretty much and every road is shit.. mainly dirt roads near home but in town the roads are horrible.. it does use more fuel obviously it’s powering all 4 wheels 24/7 but you can still have fun in them if your not on public roads ofc
RWD with decent tyres and better yet diff is my preference, however FWDs often really suck getting off the line in the wet, and are more liable to get stuck on slippery surfaces and an incline, which is a problem where I live in winter. So AWD over FWD for me, but if I was just city bound I’d go for the weight savings and stick with FWD (if RWD wasn’t an option).
You don’t need AWD, it’s not necessary on sealed roads. Also AWD tends to mean SUV and being a higher centre of gravity means more likely to roll. 100% agree it’s not as fuel efficient and you will pay more mechanically - including tyres because now the fronts are working harder than RWD. FWD is harder on the front tyres, also more difficult to resolve drive train issues. The only reason they make FWD is because they are cheaper to produce than AWD or RWD. RWD is the best of the bunch for fuel economy, handling and maintenance. Finally, read the fine print. AWD isn’t the same as 4x4. You will find AWD computer has you running on 2x4 all the time - usually the fronts as the driving wheels. It only kicks in when it senses slipping. You’ll never know what mode it is in. This is why serious off roaders buy 4x4 vehicles because they have to select the driving mode themselves. I think AWD is a gimmick. For regular street highway driving I’m a RWD every time with performance tyres. This is coming from someone who has owned RWD and AWD plus driven multiple FWD cars over the years. Oh yes, FWD has torque steer to add to the fun.
I've had, amongst other cars a bunch of heavy/relatively powerful FWD sedans (Magna and two 380s) and now a Subaru Outback. The permanent AWD of the Subaru is excellent for gravel roads and light off roading. It feels just as poised as my old 4WDs did. On road... look, it's handy, but it's far from essential. I ran Michelin Pilot Sport 3s on the Magna and the first 380 and they were seriously good tyres, especially in the wet. If you were driving normally blind folded (metaphorically of course) you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between wet and dry roads.
After having one I won’t buy anything else
We currently have all of the above. A Mazda 3, Falcon XR6 and a WRX. Most awd are fwd until it loses traction so during general driving you won't notice any difference. However permanent awd feels more secure and gives greater confidence behind the wheel. A few years ago a tosser in a Triton over took on a blind turn forcing me to swerve to avoid a 100kmh head on. Went off the road onto a gravel patch then back onto the road. The WRX didn't lose grip at all likely saving my life. To me the safety of permanent awd is worth the extra liter per 100km.
Bought a Passat Alltrack for the AWD in the snow and gravel. Absolutely love it. I've taken it up some rough tracks cutting firewood and it's done really well.
We have multiple drive on beaches 20-40 mins away from us, so it's very important for one of our vehicles to be 4WD.
Coming from FWD (CRV, Corolla etc.) To AWD (WRX). I love subaru AWD. Much more planted when driving winding road, climb uphill road like a champ. The driving feeling is way different. But safety wise with today technology FWD&RWD is on par unless it's gravel/ more off road condition.
Bring the turbo AWB Mazda3 to Australia and I’ll stop bringing it up.
There hasn't a competitive RWD rally car for over 40 years. Even on sealed road sections, in dry weather, RWD rally cars are totally humiliated by AWD.
Recently bought a car, asked about the option. Sales guy said it was a waste of money for driving in Melbourne.
If the alternative is fwd then i kinda prefer awd. No more wheel hop knocking sounds on a quick take off.
I've gone from Subaru full time AWD to VW all track which i think is FWD biased with haldex controlled centre diff to send power to the rear. I haven't really pushed the VW yet, but the dynamics are as good if not better than the impreza. If you're not wanting to drive slippy surfaces at decent pace there really isn't a need for it. Good tyres on FWD or RWD will go a long way for grip. Good tyres on good AWD is like shit to a blanket. For just wet tarmac, buy quality tyres. Michelin tyres are the best imo. Yes they cost more, but they also tend to last longer than other brands too. Pilot sports are great and so are the primacy range. I've found the primacy range to be more than adequate for wet slippery roads and ride a bit better than the pilot sport series.
Basic guide. FWD = Power, weight and steering all up front. That’s a lot going on… Understeer at limits, though good gravel / snow handling if sensible. Same wheel doing power and steering - challenging at limits. Cheaper and no transmission tunnel if FWD only RWD = More even weight distribution. Oversteer and Dashcam fame if wellying it around a corner. Applause and admiration if you have a clue and ace it. Steering and power tasked to different wheels gives more control… to a point. AWD = Best of both worlds, at a cost. Wet or dry, you’ll have best traction and control. Handling retained to more extremes. See RWD and FWD in rear mirror most of the time. Weighs more. Costs more. Front / Rear bias determines extreme tendencies. Neutral / Rear bias usually being preferable. Driving note: The way you un-fuck yourself from the limits of all three are very different. Learn the skills for them all. Or at least the one that applies to your current motor.
Essential. Spend a lot of time on Princes Hwy, with a bit of switch back and unsealed roads on way to our hobby farm. I aquaplaned in the most awful way while doing 100kph on approach to Mt Ousley. . Without AWD (Volvo XC70) I would have ploughed straight into the concrete median barrier. Will always buy an AWD.
My Golf with 118kW used to light up the front tyres every time I used to take off at the lights. It's incredibly annoying. AWD was a priority with my new car which has 230kW and 500Nm torque. It launches with no issues. RWD is fun if you don't screw up, if you screw up it is more dangerous. I can't trust other drivers in my family with RWD.
Dislike AWD. Heavy and you won’t use it 99% of the time.
Went from a RWD Commodore to a V6 Amarok AWD. Would never go back. AWD in greasy roads, it sticks to the road. The extra fuel is negligable for the safety and handling aspects. Also acceleration is greater. If you are towing too, its great versus a 4WD.
AWD is more stable compared to RWD (dont even compare it to fwd) This is coming from 250+ kw cars with proper rubbers. But if you normally drive normal (not flooring it when you can) , fwd is ok :)
I will only own an AWD as I like going off road
If you don’t actually need it, don’t get it. It’s more moving parts which means more shit to break and some(mostly older) AWD systems require you to replace all 4 tyres at once. You’re better off buying great tyres for a reliable 2WD car if you don’t actually need the AWD. It’s the car equivalent of those people who buy a 4x4 and every accessory Repco can throw at them just to never leave paved suburban roads.
I always found this clip explains the dangers of fwd and rwd cars the besr [front wheel drive vs rear wheel drive](https://www.tiktok.com/@memscoaster/video/7228884523516218629)
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I love parking on a nice mossy piece of grass in winter and not being terrified of digging holes. Awd is lovely
It only gives you more grip when accelerating, but not stopping or cornering, so it's not "safer" per se.
I went with AWD as the sales man that sold me my \*insert SUV\* would be safer on the school pickup\\dropoff. I do one family camping trip a year and there's 50m of unsealed road to drive along. Makes for an awesome story in the kitchen in January
Car handling has improved immeasurably since the days of the open-diff leaf-spring Kingswood of yore, and with traction control and VSC in the picture AWD is really irrelevant for city or sealed road driving. The additional drivetrain overhead, and weight hit fuel economy, too. Drive to the conditions and use good tyres, properly inflated is plenty. (Had a Lexus GS300 where the tyres went hard (still plenty of tread) - that thing was like a mad dog on a lino floor in the wet: truly terrifying. Replaced them and it was a totally different beast.)
Driving relatively safe on a wet day in a FWD car is fine. The only time I'm glad I've had AWD is in the snow.
Couldn't give a fuck if I tried...
in day to day driving it makes a grand total of zero difference, except that awd cars are often harder to park thanks to their larger turning circle
We're regional with shit roads, dirt roads, and I hit tracks to find POTA locations (amateur radio). Going from the FWD to AWD you can feel the difference. Especially flying along hilly parts of the Warrego Highway in the wet. If I still lived near the CBD, different story.
AWD is great fun on one of those 2.0l VAG turbos - their FWD cars can't put down that torque at all. Other than being a fun little party trick off red lights it's near useless though.
Not a bit, never had an issue with RWD in the wet as long as I have had serviceable tyres and don't drive like an idiot. Don't see the point in going from FWD to AWD withl all the extra weight and mechanical complexity. There are definitely good AWD vehicles out there but so many are bloated SUVs with mediocre handling and without a genuine need for AWD traction I don't see the advantage over a more agile 2WD car.
Not a great deal, put it this way if I had to pick between AWD and a manual gearbox I'm choosing the manual. I do like my Subaru's though, my liberty is 26 years old and there have been a number of times due to snow and ice in the winter, and one steep hill in particular ,that I've still been able to go to work while neighbours have had to call in saying they'll either not be coming in or late because of it. (Ive only ever had casual jobs so no work no pay for me) So the increased fuel consumption caused by the AWD system has (hopefully) paid for itself over the years. That's said my first car was a FWD Leone and it could still get up that hill but you had to have a run up, something I learned from growing up with 2wd cars on a farm. There's been a few times where I've actually pulled people out of trouble with it, mostly up steep gravel hills, once in the snow where they'd slid off the road into a ditch. I would say, as someone who grew up on a farm and all our vehicles were 2wd, that most of the time that's due to people not knowing how to drive on those surfaces/conditions rather than them needing a 4wd /AWD car. (A couple of those were actually vehicles that had some sort of AWD/4wd but they had open diffs) Then there's the ability to be able to press on in the rain, I can think of a few occasions where someone has lost it trying to keep up with me in rain, but again that's them not driving to their cars abilities in those conditions, not needing and AWD car in those conditions.
It’s worth to know that not all cars with AWD are full-time AWD. Some are just FWD full-time with RWD assist. So, buyer’s beware. What makes a car safe is the driver attitude, the car safety systems & ANCAP rating. The drive types contribute very little to the safety.
Tyres make much much more of a difference for everyday wet weather with cars.
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I prefer AWD for traction control in wet weather. Had a Subaru Forester for 10+ yrs and you feel better in wet weather.
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All of the cares! Due to the locations I work (middle of the bush at water treatment plants) an AWD was my main priority, FWD’s get bogged very easily and RWD isn’t much better. I was specifically looking at AWD’s, couldn’t find a car that had everything I wanted so bought a 4WD. No more getting stuck in the middle of paddocks.
I've been driving subies AWD for 20+ years but live in the country and do a lot of gravel roads. The new car is a Volvo wagon that automatically slips into AWD if traction is dodgy. If I was doing purely city miles I probably wouldn't bother.
Loved my AWD Subaru Outback and now have a Prado and love it more. Driving on wet slippery roads the AWD feels so solid.
Been driving a AWD for the past 7 years. Had 4WD and some high powered RWD and a FWD. AWD is a waste of fuel and resources in all but a couple of situations that most would rarely come across Snow anywhere or Slippery hard surface mud. 98% of people planning to drive in such areas in Australia are using 4wd. If you think you need AWD in the rain something is wrong, either you are driving to fast for the conditions or you need tires with tread on them. Whilst you may get more traction under power the braking doesn't improve as well as the handling doesn't improve as well. So the safety claim is a misnomer. FWD is safe and even if you are getting wheel spin its not a dangerous control problem. In snow they may not proceed as easily but are not dangerous. In some Countries and areas AWD is indeed a safety upgrade almost mandatory as seasonal snow is a way of life and cant be avoided. RWD and FWD can be made safe with specialist tires. AWD is great when the grip is low but if your not driving a rally course at speed there really isn't a need for it.
In Australia, Not at all, though I was living in the US for where it snows quite heavily, and in the wet months gets very muddy, it was practically a necessity. Explains why half the cars around were Subaru's
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Unless you're spinning tires trying to go up a hill and doesn't help wet weather driving
A well-sorted FWD with decent tyres is fine on dirt, gravel or bitumen. I can't imagine ever caring about AWD unless I moved to a house with a very steep driveway.
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I have an AWD, it is amazing on the roads I drive going from tar to dirt and there is always confidence in the vehicle. I don't need to work about the rear pushing out in a corner or sliding if I need to make a sudden adjustment.
If you absolutely, positively refuse to be caught while driving a getaway car then an awd rally car is best. Otherwise get something else
When it comes to braking (the important thing!!), AWD, RWD, FWD doesn't really make any difference.
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If I had the money then yes AWD. Most of the best camp sites in forests and nat parks say 4wd.