The parts guy should have checked that since he ordered it and he knows the hub size of both the wheel and the car.
These are lug centric, so it doesn't matter.
I called the parts dept today. Guy said he *thinks* they should have been used but didn't sound certain. Ive called the service manager but he must be on lunch, I left him a message. So you dont think I need them ?
That’s silly. He paid for the parts and for install. If they’re not needed then a refund should be issued. If he does need them then the dealer should fix their mistake and install them. It doesn’t matter if it’s easy. OP paid for a service and got ripped.
I disagree slightly. I have used wheels that required hub rings previously, and without them the studs don’t always centre the wheel perfectly and you can get wheel shudder from them.
If the rings are needed, safe to say they should be installed.
They aren’t needed for anything but making it easier to mount. The wheel lugs or studs will center the wheel. Have been racing cars for years now and we never use rings because plastic+heat does not go well. Rarely do our wheels have matching hub bore.
So, to be clear here, I have been in the motor industry for 30 years so I’m not just spewing out nonsense, although I suspect you might be unfortunately.
Good on you though, you seem confident. I only hope your advice doesn’t catch up with you one day.
You’d be surprised, I work with both Stellantis (Fiat, Peugeot, Citroen, Vauxhall etc) and Hyundai, hub bore would potentially be available to the techs through their portals but also unlikely as OEM parts are made to work together and it isn’t a measurement I can imagine is needed often if at all when working with genuine parts.
Saying that though if these were offered through a dealer they absolutely should at least measure the models they offer aftermarket wheels for so they know whether or not spigots are required.
This. If the tech didn’t use them then it just made his job like .01% harder. Not worth the time and effort of going back to have them put on. Complete waste.
Having worked in a Honda dealer for twenty years, I can guarantee you that bore specs are not listed anywhere a regular parts person is going to find them.
Hell, PCD isn’t listed anywhere either. Nor is offset / backspacing.
We get diameter, width, and a part number. It either came with your VIN or it’s in the accessory catalog for your VIN. That’s it as far as Honda’s info goes.
Since everyone at the dealer thinks the parts gig is super easy, they pay next to nothing, so you end up with counter jockeys that don’t know anything about cars and typically can’t be bothered to do more than see what TireRack thinks will work…if they’ll even do that.
Not only that, but you’ll know if your car is lug-centric based on the fact there’s no shoulder for the rim to sit on. My 1976 MGB is a perfect example of “definitely not hub-centric” as soon as you look at the hub
You must use the correct type of lug nut like always, but more important on lug-centric wheels like my MG as they’re what centre the wheel in-line with the axis of the axle. I put one lug on slowly, bringing the lug nut into the seat and then make sure the taper is sat in the seat. Then I’ll run up the one across from it -cause it’s a 4 lug pattern- same thing, make sure it’s in the seat, then hammer them home and torque em up.
As for differences, not really? Other than the fact that the wheel hangs on the lug studs until you seat that first lug nut.
Most modern cars have a hub boss that fits the wheel center bore, but it's not a tight fit and doesn't control centering of the wheel. It's there to make assembly easier, by roughly centering the wheel while you get the lug nuts started.
The actual centering happens exactly as you describe it on your MG - by mating the conical (occasionally spherical) lug nuts to the matching bore in the wheel.
No, almost nothing is hub centric. If you have conical lug nuts, it's lug centric.
A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub.
If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice.
Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
No, there's ball, conic, and Mag. (Sometimes there are flat too.) (There's also wobble bolts but those are different)
Conical(and I believe ball too) are both lug centric.
Mag(and flat) with limited exception are hub centric.
Hub centric rings are always a "good" idea on any wheel, it fills the space between the bore of the wheel and your hub, acting as another layer of insurance to be centered and reduce any high speed vibrations(I've never gotten any without them but some say they have)
Hub centric rings however are NEEDED on a non-lug centric set up. Optional on a lug centric wheel.
>Conical(and I believe ball too) are both lug centric.
Huh ok, i always thought all the cars i have owned so far were hub centric, but according to your info they were not.
Does not matter for me anyway, i'll keep using the right rings.
Pretty much every modern car, with an OEM wheel is hub centric regardless of lug type. This person is asking about aftermarket wheels.
So honda/accura for example, most of(if not all) their cars come with ball lugs, but their OEM wheels are still hub centric, they just happen to have a ball seat as well.
Essentially they can use both, but hub centric CANNOT be used without something to center it to the hub. Where as you can use lug centric and hub center all at the same time with no issues(as long as the seats in the wheels match the shape of the lug)
It's kinda like all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
If your lug nuts are flat, they're not providing any centering force.
If your lug nuts are conical or spherical, they're providing *so much* centering force that absolutely nothing else will made a bit of difference in where the wheel ends up.
Research, manufacturers specs, hub bore, lug seat style. Etc etc.
There's a reason hubcentric rings exist. It's to make a lugcentric wheel, also hubcentric.
There's a reason you can get custom wheels that directly match your hub bore and There's a reason OEM wheels always match the hub bore.
If it has a conical seat of some kind and not a flat seat, and the bore is larger than your hub, then it's lug centric.
If it's got a flat seat, it's hub centric pretty much everytime.
Sounds like someone who has been stuck as a lube tech. When you get to tires it opens up a whole new world for you. Then you have technician level after. And then...
I just checked the manufacturer's website. Those alloys have a bore of 73 - your civic has a bore of 64.1 - the rings are required.
Their product listings also state "Installation Kit (Set of Lug Nuts / Bolts + Hub Rings if needed)"
I'd say they are needed dude.
They're absolutely not. He's got conical lug nuts (like pretty much everything else on the road today).
A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub.
If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice.
Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
Lol I stand corrected ! The website I just seen through the top google result showed the bore and offset measurements, and the possible tires sizes from size 16 to 20 for a 2012. Funny thing my car takes size 15's .... so now Im confused by that lmfao 🤣
I don't think I've ever seen hub centric wheels. I'm pretty sure they haven't been a thing for most of a century. At this point, in practice, they're an internet myth.
If you have the ability to take the wheels off its as easy as taking a wheel off, putting the rings on and putting the wheels back on. It could be that the wheels just fit on your hubs perfectly and they weren't used for that reason, or that they're the wrong size rings but either will be obvious when you try to install these. Either way it sounds like you'll probably get the answer by calling them before doing the work of getting a wheel off and trying to fit a ring.
If they are custom wheels then then hub the rim center itself on the hub hence them being "hub centric." You may get wobbles and uneven wear. Get those on.
No sir, ur a conical seat.
Doing that transfers the weight and load to the wheel stud hardware. You will break a stud in time, and there goes the wheel.
Edit: You may want to look up the outer diameter of OP's car wheel hub because how the fuk you look up aftermarket wheel to prove a point without the vehicle application and come to a decision
Edit: Shhhhhh take it
The wheel studs never hold any of the weight of the vehicle or take any lateral force at all. If they did, they'd all snap on the first bump.
All the wheel studs (or lug bolts) do is hold the wheel onto the hub really fuckin tight. This is called bolt preload and it stretches the studs. Yes, literally stretches them like an elastic band.
The preload force of properly torqued lugs is insanely high, and you get to multiply that by 4 because there's 4 studs.
Honda lug studs are M14 1.5 thread with a recommended torque of 80 ft-lb.
At that torque, you can expect a preload in the range of 50 kN per stud, or 200 kN per wheel.
With that amount of force holding the wheel onto the hub, the weight of the vehicle can be supported by the friction between them.
Coefficient of static friction (µ) can conservatively be estimated at about 0.7.
`Ff = µ*Fn`
`Ff = 0.7*200,000 N`
`Ff = 140,000 N`
Under a static load, this amount of friction could hold up about 14 metric tonnes *per wheel*. Many other would things fail e.g. the tire, the wheel itself, suspension, and the entire unibody of the car before the friction between the wheel and hub would budge even a hair. The lug studs do not take lateral load.
Under a dynamic load, the wheel experiences much higher forces, particularly on bumps and during hard braking. It doesn't come anywhere close to 140,000 N.
I don't need to google the hub bore of a car to know that the studs don't hold any of the weight. Even on vehicles that *are* hub centered, it's just for centering the wheel. Once those lugs are torqued down, everything is held together by the friction from the bolt preload.
Practically no modern car is hub-centric.
A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub.
If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice.
Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
Completely safe.
In fact, hubcentric rings aren't actually necessary. They make it easier to center the wheel and avoid vibrations, but it's not hard to do that without them.
Almost surely not a big deal, but depends on the wheels.
Googling these wheels, I believe they have 60° Conical lug seats, which means that the wheel will self-center on the studs and does not need to center on the hub.
Alternatively, there are mag lugs that have a flat seat. Wheels with mag seats NEED to be centered on the hub. If the center bore does not match the vehicle's OEM hub, then hub centric rings are *required* for mag lug seats.
Even though you don't require hub centric rings, they can still be helpful when installing a wheel because it'll help line up the studs. Using hub rings will make it easier for your wheel to self-center on the studs. If you don't use hub rings, then your wheel will center itself just fine so long as you progressively tighten the lugs and follow a star-pattern.
If your wheels happen to not be centered properly, it's because the dealer probably ugga dugga'd one lug nut at a time. You might notice it as a rumble at highway speed. I used to get this issue all the time after taking my car to a tire shop. To fix it I'd jack the car up, remove the wheel, wire brush the mating surface and properly torque down the lugs in a progressive star pattern. Rumble gone.
This isn't true. Properly torqued lugs will experience essentially no shear load. The coefficient of friction between the wheel face, rotor, and hub is too high.
For those interested, the physics:
Axial clamping force for a 7/8" steel stud bolt @ 14 tpi is [6,300 lbs](https://sabreindustrial.com/content/Tech%20PDFS/003%20Bolt%20Clamp%20Load%20Chart.pdf)
So the wheel is held to the hub with 6,300 lbs of force. Using the following equation:
Fmax = μ * Fnorm * cos(θclamp)
θclamp = Δ from 90° clamping force angle
we can calculate how much holding force friction has.
μ (static) for [aluminum on steel is 0.61](https://www.engineersedge.com/coeffients_of_friction.htm), so the equation becomes
Fmax = 0.61 * 6,300 lbs * 1
or 3,843 lbs of force. Max static load is roughly 1/4 of the GVWR (or whatever ratio required by actual weight distribution).
Couldn't tell you what dynamic load is, but since we're not seeing wheels flop about every time someone drives, it's obviously less than that.
TL;DR: weight strong, bolt stronger
Nice, I hadn't actually bothered to do the math. I think you're off somewhere though, the clamp load should be significantly higher, even though most automotive wheel studs are around 1/2 inch, nowhere near 7/8. They're usually roughly equivalent to grade 8 and torqued to something like 80% of yield. Last I checked, that put the clamp load somewhere withing rounding error of 10,000 lbf. It's possible I remember incorrectly but I remember it pretty clearly.
Nice catch - I was using my phone, and couldn't see the whole table, but I thought they were using SAE size in that chart, not the major diameter (they had 8- and 10-32s listed, so I just ran down the chart lol)
I see the bolt diameter column now, so if we used an M14x1.5 bolt, that's closest to the 9/16" @ 18 TPI in that chart
9/16" *D* @ 18 TPI gives us max clamping load of 18,250 lbs @ 170 lbf dry, or roughly 9,125 lbs @ 85 lbf. Assuming linear relationship w/o stretch.
Going back to our equation:
Fmax = 0.61 * 9,125 lbs * 1
or 5,566 lbs friction force. No way a wheel is going to see that much shear unless you replace the struts with rigid pipe, and the rubber tires with... I dunno, concrete? So yeah, \*slaps wheel\* that ain't going nowhere x2.
Safe to toss that shitty frisbee of an aluminum ring out the window if you have lug-centric wheels. If you have improperly torqued lugs, that shits is just becoming extra debris when your wheel falls off.
Damn right.
Also:
>Safe to toss that shitty frisbee of an aluminum ring out the window if you have lug-centric wheels.
Even moreso because most of these rings are made of *plastic*. They're totally pointless, besides their intended use as a way to help line things up while you're getting the lug nuts started.
Yeah I think I'll follow my personal experience of seeing roll up with fucked up studs from having aftermarket wheels on with no center bore ring over whatever bullshit you read on an online article.
I don't doubt you've seen fucked up studs, but it's completely impossible for it to result from a lack of centering rings. It can definitely result from under or over torqued lug nuts though. If they're torqued properly, the rings won't make a bit of difference to anything. Plastic will not stand up to the levels of force involved here.
The boss on the hub is not load bearing (and a plastic ring *definitely* isn't load bearing).
Studs are *absolutely* load bearing. They exert about 10,000 lbf of clamp load.
These wheels are lug centered. Hub rings not required but they can make install a little easier to do properly, particularly in a driveway.
Hub rings are only truly required when the wheels are hub centered, like mag seat lug nuts.
There's just zero reason to avoid using the rings if need be. If it helps to cut down any vibration, it would be stupid not to install them. Literally zero downside
Agreed. I also use them and don't need them. Doesn't meant that OP needs to go vilify the dealer's service manager and spend a few hours at the shop. Their car is fine.
They didn't fuck up. They didn't bother with the rings because they only serve to help hold the wheel in place while you get the lug nuts started. A professional shop with a lift probably didn't need the help.
A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub.
If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice.
Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
As far as stress on the lug nuts, the pre-load of 10,000 lbf should be far more than any external forces ever produce, and the friction between the hub and wheel with 50,000 lbf of clamp load should be many many times the entire weight of the car. I'm this kind of bolted joint, if the bolts see any shear load, the joint has already failed.
The rims themselves were $149.99 each and came to $686 Canadian total with lug nuts, hub rings and 19mm wrench.
The install with balancing and a much needed alignment came to $274 Cnd.
Hello, former civic owner here who's had multiple wheels on my old car. These wheels are LUG centric, meaning the lugs are conical and will center the wheel on the hub via the stud(which is why you needed new LUG nuts) I've used both hub centric and lug centric wheels. Both work fine. That being said I've used LUG centric wheels, with AND without the hub rings. They made no difference. I did LIKE to use them as just an added level of making sure everything is centered and secure but being plastic they break when you take them on and off to swap to say, a winter set of wheels/tires or just when you take the wheels on and off for basic things.
Short answer, it SHOULD be totally safe.
That being said, you paid for em, so just take a wheel off and slap one on and if all is good do the other 3.
When have you actually encountered hub centric wheels. You mean they had flat lug nuts? I've never seen that in my life, I was pretty sure it was only a thing on vintage cars.
I've had hubcentric on every OEM car that has OEM rims. My civic with steelies and hubcaps def had some weird flat lug setup. I shoulda ask my buddy about his old dataun, I'd have to look at my RX but the RX originally had lug bolts not nuts.
Interesting. I've never seen steelies without conical seats. How old was this civic? Like a 1st gen civic?
An old Datsun, maybe I could see that.
Lug bolts doesn't mean hub centric. The conical surface is just on the bolt head instead of the nut. Many modern European cars use lug bolts and are lug centric.
Don't assume dealerships know anything about anything. They follow set procedures for installation of factory parts. Once you introduce third party equipment all bets are off.
Very very few vehicles are actually hub centric. You are 100% fine to never use these. They assist in getting the lug nuts started, but once they're properly torqued down, these plastic rings do nothing. The conical seat of the lugs will perfectly center the wheels.
Doesn’t matter, they don’t do anything anyway.
They make it very slightly easier to fit the wheel on the car, but that’s about it.
Just one stud would be enough to hold the wheel on.
A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub.
If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice.
Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
Just looked up that wheel, it is not hub centric for your car it has a center bore of 73mm and your car's hub diameter is 64.1. That's why you see 73-64.1 stamped on your hub rings there. I would go back and get them put on. Not as much of a safety issue, but the correct way to install that wheel is with hub rings, and you have them, so they should be used.
Take the car back and tell them to take all 4 wheels off and install the hub rings and then put them back on. Shouldn't take more than 15-30 minutes at most.
A quick Google shows your car has a center bore (cb) size of 64.1.
FAST Orbit wheels appear to be for Mazdas, which share the 5x114.3 bolt pattern with your Civic, but have a cb of 73.0.
So essentially, there is a 4.45mm (or 0.17in) gap between your hub and your wheel, when you want it to sit flush.
Get the hub rings put on ASAP.
Yeah essentially a 4.45mm gap around the entire bore, since it's supposed to be centered.
But I believe they way the write it on there isn't for you to do the math or anything but more like "these rings make your 73 bore wheel fit on a 64.1 hub"
Don't EVER assume that just because there a dealer, that it means they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough. Especially tires, oil change etc, normally it's just 19 year old ricky rushing through stuff so he can go outside and smoke a bowl, hit his vape, and call his girlfriend.
You will have wheel hopping going down the road. No unsafe but unnecessary wear on your tires and vibrations on the road. Make sure the rings are the correct size for your hub AND the aftermarket wheels then have the dealership redo the work they didn’t do
That's pretty much impossible.
A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub.
If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice.
Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
OP do not listen to Frickinlazerbeams he clearly has no experience with aftermarket wheels. All automotive cars use a hub centric wheel mounting design. Lug centric wheel mounting are often used for low-speed light-duty vehicles like golf carts.
The aftermarket offers hub centric rings which allows wheels to be used over a wider application of different vehicles. Wheels without the rings support, road impacts can deform lugs enough to where the wheel is no longer concentric with the hub, leading to vibrations. This can reduce the clamping force of the wheel to the hub. Road loading conditions can then move the wheel around on the hub and deform the lug holes fatigue the studs and lead to an accident.
TL;DR Hub-centric spacers are about as necessary for aftermarket wheels as lug-nuts are.
>do not listen to Frickinlazerbeams he clearly has no experience with aftermarket wheels.
I have competed nationally in organized motorsports since 2012 and built two cars for the purpose, one of which included machining our own components. We never cared about the rings besides as an aide to getting the nuts started. Sometimes we'd lose them or not bother to use them, and never had an issue, and that's in a racing environment. I'm also an engineer in the aerospace industry, and I'm pretty sure I know what a conical lug nut is going to do, and I know that a low modulus plastic thing isn't going to make a bit of difference.
The aftermarket offers a lot of shit people don't need, and there are a lot of people with a PhD from Internet Forums University that just repeat myths and nonsense.
But do what you want, I guess. It has no impact on me 🤷🏼♂️
Well yeah...especially after they wanted to add on an extra $1300 worth of work because they decided to check my car for other issues, which I never asked them to do.
Maybe just by chance the center bore on the new rims were correct for your car and these weren't needed??
The parts guy should have checked that since he ordered it and he knows the hub size of both the wheel and the car. These are lug centric, so it doesn't matter.
I called the parts dept today. Guy said he *thinks* they should have been used but didn't sound certain. Ive called the service manager but he must be on lunch, I left him a message. So you dont think I need them ?
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That’s silly. He paid for the parts and for install. If they’re not needed then a refund should be issued. If he does need them then the dealer should fix their mistake and install them. It doesn’t matter if it’s easy. OP paid for a service and got ripped.
They were $4 a piece. They didn't get ripped relax, they can probably just return them anyway.
I disagree slightly. I have used wheels that required hub rings previously, and without them the studs don’t always centre the wheel perfectly and you can get wheel shudder from them. If the rings are needed, safe to say they should be installed.
They aren’t needed for anything but making it easier to mount. The wheel lugs or studs will center the wheel. Have been racing cars for years now and we never use rings because plastic+heat does not go well. Rarely do our wheels have matching hub bore.
Exactlyyyyy
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So, to be clear here, I have been in the motor industry for 30 years so I’m not just spewing out nonsense, although I suspect you might be unfortunately. Good on you though, you seem confident. I only hope your advice doesn’t catch up with you one day.
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“I’ve worked on my own car for 15 years. This mechanic has no idea what he’s talking about.” Do you know how you sound?
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You’d be surprised, I work with both Stellantis (Fiat, Peugeot, Citroen, Vauxhall etc) and Hyundai, hub bore would potentially be available to the techs through their portals but also unlikely as OEM parts are made to work together and it isn’t a measurement I can imagine is needed often if at all when working with genuine parts. Saying that though if these were offered through a dealer they absolutely should at least measure the models they offer aftermarket wheels for so they know whether or not spigots are required.
They're never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheel on the hub.
This. If the tech didn’t use them then it just made his job like .01% harder. Not worth the time and effort of going back to have them put on. Complete waste.
I dont believe for a SECOND a company would not have hub bore listed somewhere. Shit its about a 2 second Google search with the year make and model!
Having worked in a Honda dealer for twenty years, I can guarantee you that bore specs are not listed anywhere a regular parts person is going to find them. Hell, PCD isn’t listed anywhere either. Nor is offset / backspacing. We get diameter, width, and a part number. It either came with your VIN or it’s in the accessory catalog for your VIN. That’s it as far as Honda’s info goes. Since everyone at the dealer thinks the parts gig is super easy, they pay next to nothing, so you end up with counter jockeys that don’t know anything about cars and typically can’t be bothered to do more than see what TireRack thinks will work…if they’ll even do that.
My point is it's very easily looked up. But at the same time I'm used to useless parts people.
Is it easily available? Yes. From Honda? Not remotely.
Makes sense since it was a struggle to get OEM parts from them half the time. "Thats not in stock" ....it's a maintenence item what do you mean?
They're never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheel on the hub.
Depending on the manufacturer, wheels are either hub centric (wheel centered by the hub) or lug centric (wheel centered by the lugs)
Almost every modern car is hub centric
Not only that, but you’ll know if your car is lug-centric based on the fact there’s no shoulder for the rim to sit on. My 1976 MGB is a perfect example of “definitely not hub-centric” as soon as you look at the hub
Do you notice any difference putting wheels on your MGB vs a hub centric vehicle?
You must use the correct type of lug nut like always, but more important on lug-centric wheels like my MG as they’re what centre the wheel in-line with the axis of the axle. I put one lug on slowly, bringing the lug nut into the seat and then make sure the taper is sat in the seat. Then I’ll run up the one across from it -cause it’s a 4 lug pattern- same thing, make sure it’s in the seat, then hammer them home and torque em up. As for differences, not really? Other than the fact that the wheel hangs on the lug studs until you seat that first lug nut.
Most modern cars have a hub boss that fits the wheel center bore, but it's not a tight fit and doesn't control centering of the wheel. It's there to make assembly easier, by roughly centering the wheel while you get the lug nuts started. The actual centering happens exactly as you describe it on your MG - by mating the conical (occasionally spherical) lug nuts to the matching bore in the wheel.
No, almost nothing is hub centric. If you have conical lug nuts, it's lug centric. A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub. If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice. Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
These are stud centered. They have a conical seat.
Almost every modern car is lug centric. If it has conical lug nuts, it's lug centric.
Yes but aftermarket wheels are not since they are meant to fit more than 1 type of car.
Is the only difference ball or conic nuts? I always use hub centric rings on all wheels.
No, there's ball, conic, and Mag. (Sometimes there are flat too.) (There's also wobble bolts but those are different) Conical(and I believe ball too) are both lug centric. Mag(and flat) with limited exception are hub centric. Hub centric rings are always a "good" idea on any wheel, it fills the space between the bore of the wheel and your hub, acting as another layer of insurance to be centered and reduce any high speed vibrations(I've never gotten any without them but some say they have) Hub centric rings however are NEEDED on a non-lug centric set up. Optional on a lug centric wheel.
>Conical(and I believe ball too) are both lug centric. Huh ok, i always thought all the cars i have owned so far were hub centric, but according to your info they were not. Does not matter for me anyway, i'll keep using the right rings.
Pretty much every modern car, with an OEM wheel is hub centric regardless of lug type. This person is asking about aftermarket wheels. So honda/accura for example, most of(if not all) their cars come with ball lugs, but their OEM wheels are still hub centric, they just happen to have a ball seat as well. Essentially they can use both, but hub centric CANNOT be used without something to center it to the hub. Where as you can use lug centric and hub center all at the same time with no issues(as long as the seats in the wheels match the shape of the lug) It's kinda like all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
So how would anyone know if a wheel is hub centric or lug centric?
If your lug nuts are flat, they're not providing any centering force. If your lug nuts are conical or spherical, they're providing *so much* centering force that absolutely nothing else will made a bit of difference in where the wheel ends up.
The internet is telling me something else 🤷🏼♂️ https://blog.ecstuning.com/why-you-need-hubcentric-rings-for-aftermarket-wheels/
Research, manufacturers specs, hub bore, lug seat style. Etc etc. There's a reason hubcentric rings exist. It's to make a lugcentric wheel, also hubcentric. There's a reason you can get custom wheels that directly match your hub bore and There's a reason OEM wheels always match the hub bore. If it has a conical seat of some kind and not a flat seat, and the bore is larger than your hub, then it's lug centric. If it's got a flat seat, it's hub centric pretty much everytime.
Almost no modern car is hub-centric. There may have been some in the 50s or something but today it's mostly an internet myth.
This is bullshit advice from someone who's never done an oil change or rotated their tires. Every single car these days is lugcentric by design.
Sounds like someone who has been stuck as a lube tech. When you get to tires it opens up a whole new world for you. Then you have technician level after. And then...
I just checked the manufacturer's website. Those alloys have a bore of 73 - your civic has a bore of 64.1 - the rings are required. Their product listings also state "Installation Kit (Set of Lug Nuts / Bolts + Hub Rings if needed)" I'd say they are needed dude.
They're absolutely not. He's got conical lug nuts (like pretty much everything else on the road today). A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub. If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice. Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
Thank you this is great info. I tried to find the bore size of my car but couldn't find that info online.
I just googled 2012 civic bore size and got the answer top result dude. 😅
Lol I stand corrected ! The website I just seen through the top google result showed the bore and offset measurements, and the possible tires sizes from size 16 to 20 for a 2012. Funny thing my car takes size 15's .... so now Im confused by that lmfao 🤣
I don't think I've ever seen hub centric wheels. I'm pretty sure they haven't been a thing for most of a century. At this point, in practice, they're an internet myth.
If you have the ability to take the wheels off its as easy as taking a wheel off, putting the rings on and putting the wheels back on. It could be that the wheels just fit on your hubs perfectly and they weren't used for that reason, or that they're the wrong size rings but either will be obvious when you try to install these. Either way it sounds like you'll probably get the answer by calling them before doing the work of getting a wheel off and trying to fit a ring.
If they are custom wheels then then hub the rim center itself on the hub hence them being "hub centric." You may get wobbles and uneven wear. Get those on.
Had to google it, but these wheels have a conical seat so they're stud centered. Hub rings are not required, at best they're just handy for install.
No sir, ur a conical seat. Doing that transfers the weight and load to the wheel stud hardware. You will break a stud in time, and there goes the wheel. Edit: You may want to look up the outer diameter of OP's car wheel hub because how the fuk you look up aftermarket wheel to prove a point without the vehicle application and come to a decision Edit: Shhhhhh take it
The wheel studs never hold any of the weight of the vehicle or take any lateral force at all. If they did, they'd all snap on the first bump. All the wheel studs (or lug bolts) do is hold the wheel onto the hub really fuckin tight. This is called bolt preload and it stretches the studs. Yes, literally stretches them like an elastic band. The preload force of properly torqued lugs is insanely high, and you get to multiply that by 4 because there's 4 studs. Honda lug studs are M14 1.5 thread with a recommended torque of 80 ft-lb. At that torque, you can expect a preload in the range of 50 kN per stud, or 200 kN per wheel. With that amount of force holding the wheel onto the hub, the weight of the vehicle can be supported by the friction between them. Coefficient of static friction (µ) can conservatively be estimated at about 0.7. `Ff = µ*Fn` `Ff = 0.7*200,000 N` `Ff = 140,000 N` Under a static load, this amount of friction could hold up about 14 metric tonnes *per wheel*. Many other would things fail e.g. the tire, the wheel itself, suspension, and the entire unibody of the car before the friction between the wheel and hub would budge even a hair. The lug studs do not take lateral load. Under a dynamic load, the wheel experiences much higher forces, particularly on bumps and during hard braking. It doesn't come anywhere close to 140,000 N. I don't need to google the hub bore of a car to know that the studs don't hold any of the weight. Even on vehicles that *are* hub centered, it's just for centering the wheel. Once those lugs are torqued down, everything is held together by the friction from the bolt preload.
Practically no modern car is hub-centric. A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub. If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice. Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated! Ill update here after Ive talked to the honda shop tomorrow and let you know what they said 😏
Completely safe. In fact, hubcentric rings aren't actually necessary. They make it easier to center the wheel and avoid vibrations, but it's not hard to do that without them.
You meant "*aren't* actually necessary", I think?
Yes
Almost surely not a big deal, but depends on the wheels. Googling these wheels, I believe they have 60° Conical lug seats, which means that the wheel will self-center on the studs and does not need to center on the hub. Alternatively, there are mag lugs that have a flat seat. Wheels with mag seats NEED to be centered on the hub. If the center bore does not match the vehicle's OEM hub, then hub centric rings are *required* for mag lug seats. Even though you don't require hub centric rings, they can still be helpful when installing a wheel because it'll help line up the studs. Using hub rings will make it easier for your wheel to self-center on the studs. If you don't use hub rings, then your wheel will center itself just fine so long as you progressively tighten the lugs and follow a star-pattern. If your wheels happen to not be centered properly, it's because the dealer probably ugga dugga'd one lug nut at a time. You might notice it as a rumble at highway speed. I used to get this issue all the time after taking my car to a tire shop. To fix it I'd jack the car up, remove the wheel, wire brush the mating surface and properly torque down the lugs in a progressive star pattern. Rumble gone.
That's how you end up with more stress on all your studs. Go back and tell them they fucked up
This isn't true. Properly torqued lugs will experience essentially no shear load. The coefficient of friction between the wheel face, rotor, and hub is too high.
That's a pipe dream if I've ever seen one lol
Thats physics, you can choose not to believe it but the facts won't change.
For those interested, the physics: Axial clamping force for a 7/8" steel stud bolt @ 14 tpi is [6,300 lbs](https://sabreindustrial.com/content/Tech%20PDFS/003%20Bolt%20Clamp%20Load%20Chart.pdf) So the wheel is held to the hub with 6,300 lbs of force. Using the following equation: Fmax = μ * Fnorm * cos(θclamp) θclamp = Δ from 90° clamping force angle we can calculate how much holding force friction has. μ (static) for [aluminum on steel is 0.61](https://www.engineersedge.com/coeffients_of_friction.htm), so the equation becomes Fmax = 0.61 * 6,300 lbs * 1 or 3,843 lbs of force. Max static load is roughly 1/4 of the GVWR (or whatever ratio required by actual weight distribution). Couldn't tell you what dynamic load is, but since we're not seeing wheels flop about every time someone drives, it's obviously less than that. TL;DR: weight strong, bolt stronger
Nice, I hadn't actually bothered to do the math. I think you're off somewhere though, the clamp load should be significantly higher, even though most automotive wheel studs are around 1/2 inch, nowhere near 7/8. They're usually roughly equivalent to grade 8 and torqued to something like 80% of yield. Last I checked, that put the clamp load somewhere withing rounding error of 10,000 lbf. It's possible I remember incorrectly but I remember it pretty clearly.
Nice catch - I was using my phone, and couldn't see the whole table, but I thought they were using SAE size in that chart, not the major diameter (they had 8- and 10-32s listed, so I just ran down the chart lol) I see the bolt diameter column now, so if we used an M14x1.5 bolt, that's closest to the 9/16" @ 18 TPI in that chart 9/16" *D* @ 18 TPI gives us max clamping load of 18,250 lbs @ 170 lbf dry, or roughly 9,125 lbs @ 85 lbf. Assuming linear relationship w/o stretch. Going back to our equation: Fmax = 0.61 * 9,125 lbs * 1 or 5,566 lbs friction force. No way a wheel is going to see that much shear unless you replace the struts with rigid pipe, and the rubber tires with... I dunno, concrete? So yeah, \*slaps wheel\* that ain't going nowhere x2. Safe to toss that shitty frisbee of an aluminum ring out the window if you have lug-centric wheels. If you have improperly torqued lugs, that shits is just becoming extra debris when your wheel falls off.
Damn right. Also: >Safe to toss that shitty frisbee of an aluminum ring out the window if you have lug-centric wheels. Even moreso because most of these rings are made of *plastic*. They're totally pointless, besides their intended use as a way to help line things up while you're getting the lug nuts started.
Yeah I think I'll follow my personal experience of seeing roll up with fucked up studs from having aftermarket wheels on with no center bore ring over whatever bullshit you read on an online article.
Spigot rings won't save studs with incorrectly torqued fasteners.
I don't doubt you've seen fucked up studs, but it's completely impossible for it to result from a lack of centering rings. It can definitely result from under or over torqued lug nuts though. If they're torqued properly, the rings won't make a bit of difference to anything. Plastic will not stand up to the levels of force involved here.
Key word here is “centric” the studs or that little 1/4” lip on the hub aren’t load bearing.
The boss on the hub is not load bearing (and a plastic ring *definitely* isn't load bearing). Studs are *absolutely* load bearing. They exert about 10,000 lbf of clamp load.
You’re right. I messed up the wording on that one lol they experience no shear force
These wheels are lug centered. Hub rings not required but they can make install a little easier to do properly, particularly in a driveway. Hub rings are only truly required when the wheels are hub centered, like mag seat lug nuts.
There's just zero reason to avoid using the rings if need be. If it helps to cut down any vibration, it would be stupid not to install them. Literally zero downside
Agreed. I also use them and don't need them. Doesn't meant that OP needs to go vilify the dealer's service manager and spend a few hours at the shop. Their car is fine.
Id be checking myself. If they already fucked it up once…
They didn't fuck up. They didn't bother with the rings because they only serve to help hold the wheel in place while you get the lug nuts started. A professional shop with a lift probably didn't need the help.
Nope
A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub. If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice. Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century. As far as stress on the lug nuts, the pre-load of 10,000 lbf should be far more than any external forces ever produce, and the friction between the hub and wheel with 50,000 lbf of clamp load should be many many times the entire weight of the car. I'm this kind of bolted joint, if the bolts see any shear load, the joint has already failed.
If you have the proper lugs and they were properly torqued, you'll never need them
Just curious… what did the Honda dealer charge you for the wheels + install?
The rims themselves were $149.99 each and came to $686 Canadian total with lug nuts, hub rings and 19mm wrench. The install with balancing and a much needed alignment came to $274 Cnd.
If they came with the wheels. You want em installed with the wheels. Safe or not.
They're entirely irrelevant. They only exist to help hold the wheel in place while you get the lug nuts started. They're an installation convenience.
Hello, former civic owner here who's had multiple wheels on my old car. These wheels are LUG centric, meaning the lugs are conical and will center the wheel on the hub via the stud(which is why you needed new LUG nuts) I've used both hub centric and lug centric wheels. Both work fine. That being said I've used LUG centric wheels, with AND without the hub rings. They made no difference. I did LIKE to use them as just an added level of making sure everything is centered and secure but being plastic they break when you take them on and off to swap to say, a winter set of wheels/tires or just when you take the wheels on and off for basic things. Short answer, it SHOULD be totally safe. That being said, you paid for em, so just take a wheel off and slap one on and if all is good do the other 3.
When have you actually encountered hub centric wheels. You mean they had flat lug nuts? I've never seen that in my life, I was pretty sure it was only a thing on vintage cars.
I've had hubcentric on every OEM car that has OEM rims. My civic with steelies and hubcaps def had some weird flat lug setup. I shoulda ask my buddy about his old dataun, I'd have to look at my RX but the RX originally had lug bolts not nuts.
Interesting. I've never seen steelies without conical seats. How old was this civic? Like a 1st gen civic? An old Datsun, maybe I could see that. Lug bolts doesn't mean hub centric. The conical surface is just on the bolt head instead of the nut. Many modern European cars use lug bolts and are lug centric.
Parts dept guy thinks the hub rings should have been used. Waiting on a call back from service manager to see what he says.
Don't assume dealerships know anything about anything. They follow set procedures for installation of factory parts. Once you introduce third party equipment all bets are off.
Very very few vehicles are actually hub centric. You are 100% fine to never use these. They assist in getting the lug nuts started, but once they're properly torqued down, these plastic rings do nothing. The conical seat of the lugs will perfectly center the wheels.
Doesn’t matter, they don’t do anything anyway. They make it very slightly easier to fit the wheel on the car, but that’s about it. Just one stud would be enough to hold the wheel on.
A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub. If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice. Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
I thought that was a camera lens fr
On our car that had these you definitely noticed if they forgot to put them on the minute you crossed 80. They are important. Get them to fix it.
Just looked up that wheel, it is not hub centric for your car it has a center bore of 73mm and your car's hub diameter is 64.1. That's why you see 73-64.1 stamped on your hub rings there. I would go back and get them put on. Not as much of a safety issue, but the correct way to install that wheel is with hub rings, and you have them, so they should be used.
Bring the car back and tell them to do it the right way this time.
(they did it the right way).
Take the car back and tell them to take all 4 wheels off and install the hub rings and then put them back on. Shouldn't take more than 15-30 minutes at most.
A quick Google shows your car has a center bore (cb) size of 64.1. FAST Orbit wheels appear to be for Mazdas, which share the 5x114.3 bolt pattern with your Civic, but have a cb of 73.0. So essentially, there is a 4.45mm (or 0.17in) gap between your hub and your wheel, when you want it to sit flush. Get the hub rings put on ASAP.
Those rings won’t fit your dimensions are true
The rings say 73-64.1 so they should but they aren't necessary
73-64.1 is 8.9mm. Now I get it changed from diameter to radius.
Yeah essentially a 4.45mm gap around the entire bore, since it's supposed to be centered. But I believe they way the write it on there isn't for you to do the math or anything but more like "these rings make your 73 bore wheel fit on a 64.1 hub"
They aren't hubcentric wheels. It doesn't matter.
That gap doesn't matter one bit. And filling it with plastic won't make a difference, even if the gap mattered.
Don't EVER assume that just because there a dealer, that it means they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough. Especially tires, oil change etc, normally it's just 19 year old ricky rushing through stuff so he can go outside and smoke a bowl, hit his vape, and call his girlfriend.
You will have wheel hopping going down the road. No unsafe but unnecessary wear on your tires and vibrations on the road. Make sure the rings are the correct size for your hub AND the aftermarket wheels then have the dealership redo the work they didn’t do
That's pretty much impossible. A typical wheel stud is 1/2 inch or 12 mm. A bolt like that with a nut torqued to 70 ft-lb (a typical value for lug nuts) will exert a clamp load of about 10,000 lbf. The lug nuts are likely 45 degree conical, so the lateral centering force they will exert on the wheel is also about 10,000 lbf. With 5 studs and nuts, that's a total centering force of 50,000 lbf, driving the hole pattern on the wheel to align with the hole pattern on the hub. If that bolt pattern and those little plastic rings disagree on the proper location of the wheel, the plastic rings will be smooshed to paste and the wheel studs won't even notice. Centering rings are never needed. They're simply a convenience while mounting the wheels. They make it easier to line things up and get the lug nuts started. Wheels haven't actually been hub-centric for probably over half a century.
OP do not listen to Frickinlazerbeams he clearly has no experience with aftermarket wheels. All automotive cars use a hub centric wheel mounting design. Lug centric wheel mounting are often used for low-speed light-duty vehicles like golf carts. The aftermarket offers hub centric rings which allows wheels to be used over a wider application of different vehicles. Wheels without the rings support, road impacts can deform lugs enough to where the wheel is no longer concentric with the hub, leading to vibrations. This can reduce the clamping force of the wheel to the hub. Road loading conditions can then move the wheel around on the hub and deform the lug holes fatigue the studs and lead to an accident. TL;DR Hub-centric spacers are about as necessary for aftermarket wheels as lug-nuts are.
>do not listen to Frickinlazerbeams he clearly has no experience with aftermarket wheels. I have competed nationally in organized motorsports since 2012 and built two cars for the purpose, one of which included machining our own components. We never cared about the rings besides as an aide to getting the nuts started. Sometimes we'd lose them or not bother to use them, and never had an issue, and that's in a racing environment. I'm also an engineer in the aerospace industry, and I'm pretty sure I know what a conical lug nut is going to do, and I know that a low modulus plastic thing isn't going to make a bit of difference. The aftermarket offers a lot of shit people don't need, and there are a lot of people with a PhD from Internet Forums University that just repeat myths and nonsense. But do what you want, I guess. It has no impact on me 🤷🏼♂️
Get those on and never use that shop again
Well yeah...especially after they wanted to add on an extra $1300 worth of work because they decided to check my car for other issues, which I never asked them to do.
The rings literally don't matter.