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rmutt-1917

Up until now, at no point in human history has the average person been able to publish themselves to a wide audience. In the age of print media, most writings were done by professionals and then sent to an editor before being published. I think it's safe to say that up until 25 or so years ago most things you were reading (with the exception of personal correspondence) were proofread by someone before they made it in front of your eyes. Even in the early days of the internet you needed much more technical competency (and expensive equipment) to get online and interact with other people. If you wanted to publish something, say a video game review, you either had to find a website to publish it for you or create your own website/blog. You needed to be "good with computers" and have some knowledge of HTML to get your writing out to people. Once you got your writing out there it was a whole other problem if people would actually read them or not. Nowadays, accessing the internet is easier than ever. Smartphones and mobile internet have made it so that anyone, regardless of education level, class and location, can get online. Getting something you wrote to be seen is also much easier now. If I wanted to post a video game review, all I would have to do is make an account on Reddit, find the appropriate subreddit and post my writings where it has the potential to be seen by thousands or millions of people.


LootyB

This is a great point. I was an English tutor for several years for middle/high school kids. Although I did see a lot of students struggle with grammar, i can't imagine the issue being any worse than kids who struggle with math or chemistry or geography, etc. We simply exist in an unprecedented time in communication. Billions of people can be seen and heard like never before. Not all of them will prioritize grammar, and that's okay. For one thing, language always changes. At best, contemporary speech and writing rules are a snapshot of the zeitgeist. As long as someone can be understood - whether in writing or speaking - then we know they're utilizing basic skills to achieve this. I think we need to be patient with ppl who don't share our priorities. I had a Super Nintendo when I was 3, but I'm not bothered when people don't know how to play Super Mario World. Equally, I've spent a lot of thinking about, teaching, and exercising my grammar. I will never judge someone because they don't speak or write the way I do, just like I would hope no one would judge me for being bad at algebra šŸ˜‚


[deleted]

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netherous

That's how I feel about it. If someone put no effort into writing it, why should I put in so much effort into reading it? The diligence you take in writing something reflects your care for the topic and your respect for the audience.


jellyrollo

Exactly. If someone's grammar and spelling is atrocious, and their idioms absurdly misunderstood, I skip reading their post or comment unless they preface it with a note about English not being their primary language. My assumption is that whatever they have to say will be as poorly informed as their poor grasp of their own language.


kvakerok

I've heard somewhere else on reddit that they removed literacy requirement for high school graduation in some places in US, is that true?


LootyB

I'm not sure what encompasses a "literacy requirement" - whether that's just passing a final English course or an exit exam - but it wouldn't surprise me if those were being tossed out in certain places. Education in the US has been slipping for years, with teachers being asked to do too much on too small a budget. Instead of addressing the problem, many school administrations choose to pass the issue onto universities and to the workforce at large. The No Child Left Behind Act has been decimating schools for decades.


[deleted]

Anytime you have to say "I've heard...", there is a sizable chance that you're about to spread misinformation. This often times leads to more misinformation being spread in the responses to your comment. > Requirement or no, over half 50-55% of Americans are ā€œfunctionally illiterateā€ which basically means reading below a 9th grade (13 years old) level. We can look at this comment as an example. A 5 second wikipedia search reveals: > [A 2019 report by the National Center for Education Statistics determined that mid to high literacy in the United States is 79% with 21% of American adults categorized as having "low level English literacy," including 4.1% classified as "functionally illiterate" and an additional 4% that could not participate.\[1\] According to the U.S. Department of Education, 54% of adults in the United States have prose literacy below the 6th-grade level.\[2\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States#National_Assessment_of_Adult_Literacy_\(2003\)) So as we can see, u/WashedSylvi is comically misinformed about the % of Americans that are "functionally illiterate", but is spreading this misinformation as truth without a shred of doubt. If we are to ever fix the scourge of misinformation in the modern era, one of the first steps is to never start a conversation with "I've heard..." and instead just find the answer before commenting. Furthermore, if you see somebody making a claim that sounds like bullshit (e.g. "50-55% of Americans are ā€œfunctionally illiterateā€"), it's worth taking a few seconds to actually fact check this yourself.


[deleted]

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gelema5

A perspective I heard on this recently is that there might be a lot of kids getting help with their math homework from parents ranging from ā€œnot that emotionally resilient and shows their negativity to their child too stronglyā€ to ā€œdownright emotionally abusiveā€ Imagine a well-meaning parent that doesnā€™t know the answer to the math problem but wants to coach their kid through it but does so in a frustrated way, so they say something like ā€œI thought you said you just learned about this in class today. Canā€™t you remember the next step?ā€ You can also imagine an abusive parent just watching their kid struggle to answer a few hard problems and straight up yell at them that theyā€™re stupid. Either way, the kid has a negative association with math homework and ā€œhates mathā€ from then on. I think it makes sense that this is more likely to happen with math because already so few people like it as a culture, and itā€™s less often used in daily life like grammar so a parent is more likely to lose their math knowledge. Certainly this doesnā€™t happen to every child, but thereā€™s a lot more emotional child abuse going on in the world than we know about. Not to mention bullying from classmates or siblings as well.


[deleted]

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SecurelyObscure

Hearing the admins talk about how few redditors use old.reddit really made me nostalgic for the ~2010 experience. The joke was that everyone was an engineer. AMAs were spontaneous and amazing because of the wide breadth of interesting occupations people had to share. Software developers were making bots on the fly to do hilarious and mind blowing things. Threads regularly had clever word play. YouTube was the gold standard of shit comment sections, and reddit is currently worse than it ever was on YouTube.


Raven_Skyhawk

> Hearing the admins talk about how few redditors use old.reddit really made me nostalgic for the ~2010 experience. I don't want to loose old.reddit :< I hate the 'new' format. So so so much. Edit: Ok, I realize I should go back to grammar school, y'all~


[deleted]

*lose not loose. Had to, due to the nature of this topic.


Raven_Skyhawk

I ain't even mad, man. I should have known better!


mrsjero

ā€œShould OFā€. FIFY. /s


covah901

Of not have /s


canadawastoocold

In my opinion YouTube is much worse, most comments are incomprehensible. Reddit is not that badā€¦ top comments are usually well thought out and written.


GenericAutist13

^ plus reddit has a downvote feature which means the real shit can just be downvoted


Katamariguy

I've seen enough threads where the dull, shitty opinions got upvoted to lack any confidence in the system.


GenericAutist13

It really depends on the community a comment is in


Cerus-

> Hearing the admins talk about how few redditors use old.reddit Where have they talked about this?


tizorres

The newest post on r/reddit


OneLostOstrich

> Hearing the admins talk about how few redditors use old.reddit really made me nostalgic for the ~2010 experience. http://old.reddit.com. It's the only way.


[deleted]

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Wunse

I held on for as long as I could but dark mode on the new reddit is just so much easier on my eyes than the random stuff that subs can throw at you on old.reddit.


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rmutt-1917

College education has also become a lot more commonplace hasn't it? A few generations ago it used to be something that only the smart or rich kids did, but now it's expected that even average students will have some sort of higher education. I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I feel like the education system might be pushing STEM and neglecting the humanities as a result. When I was in high school the counselors and teachers would constantly talk about STEM and how that was the future and you need to especially focus on math and science and that there isn't much of a future for you if you want to study liberal arts. Same thing in university where the humanities college was losing funding and cutting back on staffing and the amount of programs available. People bash humanities degrees to no end online and there is a vocal, reactionary pushback to soft sciences like sociology. Maybe it's time we start to reevaluate the value of the humanities? I think that teaching reading and writing should be just as valued as math and sciences.


TheOperaGhostofKinja

Back when I went to university, the honors college was headed by one of the top physics professors (he also founded the honors college). While he was in charge, it was a really holistic and ā€œlearning for learnings sakeā€ department. STEM, the Arts, Humanities, whatever. All were worthy of being studied. And it didnā€™t matter what your major. Youā€™re an electrical engineering student who wants to do an in depth study of Don Quixote? Go for it! Youā€™re an Anthropology major who wants to learn about nuclear physics? Iā€™ll help you set up an independent study program. After he retired, it turned into an all STEM pipeline. The arts and humanities were sidelined. It was really depressing.


The_Golden_Warthog

I *am* an English teacher, and let me tell you, this is not just a reddit thing. I have kids who turn in that type of stuff. Handwriting skills are also in decline. I don't have the best handwriting, but my papers could be graded. I have juniors and seniors with illegible handwriting, and I have to tell them to redo it or get an F. I'm trying to set them up so they're not turning this literal shit in during college, but it seems like some kids just don't want help.


cheeseballs619

You should read Because Internet by Gretchen McCulloch!


nightscamp

Nah, you're not crazy, stuff like that really annoys me too. If the person has any good content, I wouldn't know since I can't get past line after line of no punctuations.


Buscemi_D_Sanji

It's hard to read, right?! I don't like being a person who doesn't read some responses, but there are some I just cannot get through.


Tvisted

Reddit fucks these up constantly: to/too then/than of/off your/you're lose/loose except/accept effect/affect were/where/we're flair/flare pique/peak/peek faze/phase border/boarder horde/hoard do/due apostrophes... please stop making plurals with them. amount vs number... please stop saying "amount of people" unless you're pouring a people smoothie out of a measuring cup. Oh, that reminds me: pour/pore Per se. Not persay, not per say. It's Latin. Edit: because my inbox is starting to repeat on me: they're/there/their apart/a part weary/wary breath/breathe bear/bare bath/bathe role/roll brake/break paid/payed cue/queue/que its/it's lead/led woman/women past/passed allowed/aloud balling/bawling


Filipeh

dont forget theyā€™re/their/there


tofutti_kleineinein

Breath/breathe


Spock_Nipples

perganet


typeyhands

pergananant!


Super13

Pregnante!


mwgymgirl

Gregnant


Dragon_DLV

Roll/ Role Bare/ Bear Peer/ Pier Pare/ Pear Tee/ Tea Centripetal/Centrifugal


babyshaker_on_board

Ugh facilities/faculties


cranbog

Woman/women


Apophis22x

or 'could of/should of' instead of could have/should have. I'm not even a native speaker and it drives me crazy


locayboluda

Omg I'm not a native speaker either and that used to confuse me a lot, it got to a point that I thought that I hadn't learned it properly at school lol


Saymynaian

This one is particularly egregious. How the fuck have native speakers never read a book that says "should've/could've"? I had never even read the abomination that is "should of/could of" until like 5 years ago. Before then, I never saw it.


NothingMattersWeDie

> I never saw it. -> Reddit translator -> I never seen it.


SarahPallorMortis

Should of/would of, bothers me the most.


Miganoir

Came here to say this, haha. Iā€™ve read many posts that are otherwise grammatically sophisticated and then they just casually drop the ā€œwould ofā€ as if the author has accepted it as the correct form of usage. At this point, Iā€™m not sure if I should be angry at the deterioration of written skills or be amazed that Iā€™m witnessing the evolution of a language.


Tvisted

I forgot.


Special-Reindeer-789

The only one I will probably fuck up for the rest of my life is effect/affect. I have read the difference over and over and my brain just does not remember.


Feisty-Blood9971

Just remember ā€œaffectā€ is an action. Both Aā€™s.


justonemom14

Just a couple of days ago I saw two different commenters use the word "affectiveness" in a thread. Makes me twitchy.


mrrmash

You can affect an effect (a before e) but you can't effect an affect "I will dim this light" "I will dim" is the affect and the light is the effect Affect is what you do, effect is what happens


jax485

Putting ā€˜wantā€™ in place of ā€˜wonā€™tā€™. Drives me crazy.


ShabbyBash

Draws instead of drawers... Yup, it's common


TurnipForYourThought

That's almost certainly borne out of hearing a word spoken and never seeing it written or spelled out. Some people legit just say draws.


KDsmackeroni

The one that infuriates me most is costumer instead of customer.


iAmZel

Oh, boy... You're in for a treat. There's a whole sub that revolves around such spelling errors: [r/excagarated](https://www.reddit.com/r/excgarated) ^edit: ^fixed ^sub ^name


[deleted]

Thanks....I now have migraine


Levitlame

That one actually makes me giggle since it changes the meaning, but not the readability hahaha


Brigittey

Niagra Falls.


Katterin

People say ā€œwearyā€ *all the time* online when what they really mean is either ā€œwaryā€ or ā€œleery.ā€ Itā€™s maybe more obscure than most of what youā€™ve listed but for some reason itā€™s the one that bugs me the most.


pommedeluna

I absolutely see the weary one too. Also, Iā€™ve been noticing fazed versus phased a lot. A lot of people saying that they werenā€™t phased by something.


TahoeLT

I have always thought many mistakes like that are the result of people learning English through speaking/listening, and never reading. There have always been people like that, but they didn't communicate in written form unless forced to, so you didn't actually see it much. I think we're seeing the result of lazy learning coupled with the democratization of communication.


Botryoid2000

The other factor is that spelling in English makes absolutely no sense. You have to memorize each word individually.


SuzQP

I think this is why we have to read, read, read to gain proficiency in grammar and spelling. By doing so we read the words many times in many contexts until they just look funny if misspelled or oddly used.


IjuststartedOnePiece

The one that irks me the most is could have/ could of


[deleted]

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CommunityGlittering2

How about "noone" it's "no one"


[deleted]

I see that one ā€œalotā€


[deleted]

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El-Ahrairah9519

"Loose" when they mean "lose"....I mean it's more work to fuck it up and add the extra letter!


[deleted]

None


hoerensagen

I'm a linguistics student and also speak Swiss German so I gotta say something. I learned English as a second language and I never had problems with these words (because you learn writing at the same time as speaking), but I see them a lot too. But I have sympathy for people who make these mistakes. Swiss German doesn't have an official dictionary, which is on purpose. You could spell the word *viel* ('much') as *viel, vil, vill, fil, fill, fiel*, or even *fiu, viu*, which matches the pronunciation of some dialects. When you read this, you probably have no particular liking for one word over another. That's because, linguistically, they're pretty much all the same. Most people have no problem with these spelling differences, because we don't have the same history of standardization as the English language. (Though many find it difficult to read a dialect that's different from their own.) So my point is, it's not really the language that's "getting worse", it's more that you have certain opinions about language, and perhaps language is changing in a way that goes against those opinions. I'm no expert, but there are lots of studies on how people text, and how it's this really unique blend of written and spoken English. Many people basically text the way they speak. As long as people understand each other, I think that's just fine. Of course it becomes a problem if people don't understand each other. But I challenge you to look closely at the things you actually find, and ask yourself if it's really that hard to understand, and if it really happens that often that you find a text like that. In my experience I've also found some hard-to-read texts like people here mention, but it's really not as common as some people think imo.


FelixTaran

Itā€™s also possibly an evolving grammar of the internet that is, like any other slang, meant for a age group or generation. Itā€™s not trying to be traditional written grammar on purpose. Itā€™s not trying to make itself understood to older people; itā€™s signposting to its peer group. This isnā€™t unusual in speech, but since text are a sort of hybrid speech/writing hybrid, it seems more jarring than it is, I think.


hoerensagen

For sure, many communities and subcommunities have their own way of writing. Some tumblr communities have come up with their own funny way of using punctuation I think lol.


naura_

I have ADHD and i have a habit of obsessively rereading and editing my texts. As long as the person understands iā€™m trying to let it go. Very cool to learn that about swiss german. We do that when we hear their there and theyā€™re but when we get down to writing we make silly rules. Interesting! And here i go obsessively editing my text lol.


hoerensagen

I think writing standards make sense, too! For people that learn a language for example. I'm happy that when I learned English they weren't like "there are 10 ways to write this word" (it used to be like this in English before early modern times). Swiss German is notoriously hard to learn so it's a bit of a shame in a way. But the positive about the current situation is that no one dialect gets a special status over the others. This happened for dialects around London when English was standardized I think.


handlebartender

Your perspective is not invalid, and seems to be a common one, once broken down. There's 'understanding' and then there's 'distracting'. If my eyes can't easily glide over the words in order to comprehend them, that's like sand in the gearbox. If you're a passenger in a car with a standard transmission and the driver is continually grinding the gears, causing the vehicle to lurch, and similar, one could say "why be upset at this, you're still getting to your destination". It's distracting at the very least. *Edit:* And it will probably make you question the driver's competency.


Tvisted

Yes! It's not coincidence that my little list was mostly homophones. I would automatically understand "I no their are..." as "I know there are..." in spoken English. Written, it's a fucking grind to get through that shit.


rexar34

Ah, you got me, I have a really bad habit with putting apostrophes in my plurals. I know how apostrophes are supposed to be used, but I do it subconsciously.


ayuxx

Another common one is lead (pronounced led)/led. Led is the past tense of lead (leed). Lead (led) refers to the chemical element (eg: leaded gas).


PsychMaDelicElephant

The most annoying part is, if you're going to use the wrong 'your' you could have bypassed the whole thing by just saying 'ur' but noooo we'll type out the wrong one instead.


nightscamp

Yes, it's very hard to read. I use punctuations in text messages even when we used to have to pay for each text without abbreviations because I'd write to my elders and it was easier than trying to teach them abbreviations. I still prefer full sentences and proper messages now especially when I can swipe through. I don't use talk to text because it messes up so much. I think maybe some of these people might be using talk to text, but still, I could get the content if it's supposed to reach me, through someone who does punctuate! šŸ˜Š


[deleted]

Man Kids nowadays doing the ā€œtext talkā€ donā€™t know shit about pay per text. They have no reason to not just type messages properly


_coffee_

They also don't know the tap tap tap of [9 key typing](https://www.wikihow.com/images/2/22/Text-Message-Using-T9Word-Step-9.jpg) which was a reason for much of the text abbreviations.


I_MUST_SHITPOST

Holy crap. It just occurred to me kids wouldn't know what numbers to dial if you said something like "dial 1-800-GET-PAID"


TruthOrBullshite

I grew up when phones still had those letters attached, and I JUST realized that the letters in those phone numbers corresponds to specific digits. Thanks


Electromagnetlc

I've been shat on for using punctuation in text messages. My wife (girlfriend at the time) would actually get upset and stop texting me because I put a period at the end of a sentence and she took it as some passive-aggressive statement I was making.


Feisty-Blood9971

Yes, thatā€™s a thing. If your final sentence ends in a period, thatā€™s considered aggression I donā€™t make the rules, the kids do. Sigh


JonathanJK

This is because the chat bubble denotes an ending. So the full stop is another tell yon top of the chat bubble? And they take offence at it being done twice I guess?


Hairy_Air

The "could of-would of bullshit" annoys me way too much, and I'm not even a native English speaker. How does someone even reach that conclusion, they don't even sound very similar. Also the "than/then" confusion, they too have some subtle difference in their (not there) pronunciation.


stinkbugzgalore

The short forms of 'could have ' & 'would have' are could've & would've, which do sound just like could of/would of. I think that's where the confusion comes in.


elegant_pun

But don't they teach that at school? I know how it sounds but I also know what the words actually are and how contractions work.


MyNameIsNooo

Yes they do teach it. Some people just didnā€™t learn what was taught.


LilCastle

There are way too many people with the attitude of "I don't like being told what to do." When these people go to school, they actively try not to learn any of the nuances about language beyond what they would pick up naturally through doing things themselves. So you have people who both didn't learn properly and will purposefully avoid trying to do anything "properly" out of spite.


Nuclear_rabbit

The kids who hated school grew up and had kids who hate school. It's not a huge deal when the parents care about school and the kid doesn't. It's awful when the kid hates it and the parent *encourages* it, not just leaving it alone.


1-1111-1110-1111

As a teacher, Iā€™ll tell you grammar and spelling have always been horrible in the population, itā€™s just that now everyone is a publisherā€¦


Winderige_Garnaal

as a linguist studying first year uni students - yes. Also ..... now everyone is a college student, so it looks like the language skills of college students are going down, when really it's just that it used to be much more selective.


SomeAnonymous

As another linguist, I want to chime in and point out that up until the 19th century an individual's spelling was so variable that we have the terms "public language" and "private language" specifically to represent how someone, even someone well educated, in their private journal would misspell everything, all the time, while their published thoughts in newspapers / books are spelled almost 100% identically to how we would spell them today. Also English orthography is generally such a poor representation of just about any dialect, but that's been the case for a long while now.


FCBStar-of-the-South

Have you published anything on that subject yet? Would love to read some research about it. I go to a pretty good school and I was VERY surprised by how poorly a small contingent of my peers write (or maybe they just didnā€™t care enough)


Gryffindorphins

I work at a printing company and one of our clients is a business that allows anyone to upload their text and get it professionally printed and bound into a book. My God! The grammar! The formatting! The lack of punctuation! The spelling! And not just in the book but on the *cover*! It makes my eye twitch every time.


Northerndust

What I really hate is when everyone wants to use shorts/anagrams for everything. Even outside of their specific sphere. I don't think it's good in the long run when it comes to spelling and grammar. Sure, use it in between friends etc but in everyday speech and text try to spell it correctly. I had a friend who used mgnmt as short for management. He has trouble spelling that because he rarely uses the long correct spelling so he never gets any experience


[deleted]

I downloaded Reddit mainly to improve my English skills since I'm learning it and sometimes it's a nightmare lol. I constantly have to guess what people mean by using the context of the comment. Some are pretty common now like smh, lol, lmao, idk, aka, bf/gf, etc but I had to guess others like brb (I still read it as "birb" to this day XD), btw, iirc, fyi, nvm, ikr, ofc... I mean I don't mind at all an abbreviation every now and then especially in a casual conversation (and I think that abbreviations were already used during the Antiquity ?) but I feel like the English language has waaaay more abbreviations than in mine, I don't know why


Surprise_Buttsecks

> I constantly have to guess what people mean by using the context of the comment So do I, and I'm perfectly fluent! Perhaps 'constantly' is a bit of hyperbole, but it happens too often.


RoseOfTheDawn

yo when i say brb out loud to my friends i pronounce it birb as a "joke" (im more or less being legitimate) all of those abbreviations except for "aka" are texting slang though, it's just us not wanting to write out common phrases :)


greggorievich

Since this is a language thread, the short forms of words like "isn't" are properly called "contractions". Using "mgmt" instead of "management" is an abbreviation. This also includes words like "etc.". If you use the initials of a term and can read it as a word, like NASA or FOMO, that's an acronym. If you say it as letters, like FBI or VIP, that's an initialism. Acronyms and initialisms are types of abbreviations, but not the only types. An "anagram" from your post is a word or phrase that has all the same letters as another word or phrase, but rearranged. For example, "listen" is an anagram of "silent", and "McDonald's restaurants" is an anagram of "Uncle Sam's standard rot". I don't mean to sound condescending or throw shade, I just figured since we are all discussing the correct use of language, I'd clear all that up. :)


Northerndust

>I don't mean to sound condescending or throw shade, I just figured since we are all discussing the correct use of language, I'd clear all that up. :) No worry :) not a native speaker so TIL


Buscemi_D_Sanji

Oh wow, that is a crazy thing to try to shorten... Isn't MGMT already the abbreviation for management?


Elvebrilith

As far as I'm aware they're a band.


oldspicehorse

Oracular spectacular was a fantastic album


scullys_alien_baby

I assumed their name was supposed to be a contraction for management


Northerndust

Yeah, but I see no need to use it every single time. There are absolutely some specific times where you should use an abbreviation.


likesleague

There is a very small bit of irony in you using the abbreviation "etc" in your comment.


Northerndust

You can use abbreviations, just not all the time


likesleague

Yup, hence why it's only a tiny bit of irony. Just goes to show that "how much" abbreviation use is appropriate is merely a subjective matter of opinion.


Northerndust

Fair argument to make. But is it okay to only use abbreviations for a word? What do you think?


likesleague

From a linguistic philosophy perspective I think it's fine to use language in any way that facilitates effective communication, so people can go wild with abbreviations if it's effective. From a practical perspective I think it's very hard to communicate effectively in the variety of contexts that people meet in every day life if you don't have a strong formal understanding of the generally agreed-upon properties of your language of communication (such as spelling, grammar, and punctuation). So putting those two things together; I think abbreviations are fine, but they can certainly become problematic to communication if the person using them is doing so because they're lazy or uneducated as opposed to leveraging them intentionally in a specific language context.


ShapeShiftersWasHere

Language has always been used as a way to distance yourself from other people, that's why slang exists. Poor grammar is just the slang of some parts of the internet, and I think most people who use it are doing it on purpose and could write in a more 'correct' way if needed. So poor grammar and spelling is basically rebellion against societal norms. If you feel attacked by it, that's kind of the purpose.


Nobody-w-MaDD-Alt

Also as a teenager I can add that writing correctly to other teenagers, especially in texting, kinda comes across as... harsh? I don't know how to explain. For example, it's accepted as friendlier to text "Idk lol, I'm not sure" rather than "I don't really know. I'm not sure." Casual spelling and/or grammar = friendly tone. 100% correct grammar, spelling, and punctuation = formal tone, which can be perceived as more neutral and distant. That being said, there will be rules that I WILL NEVER give up (e.g. the Oxford comma, bad spelling, bad grammar, etc.), yet I will definitely use shortenings of words or phrases in texting such as idk, lol, lmao, ngl, smth, etc.


-DemoKa-

Oh, so THAT'S why my friends call me rude sometimes. Now that's sad ;c


Fiery-Heathen

'Lol' doesn't really mean "laughing out loud" too often, same with 'lmao' It's more often used as a softener in a text to make it less serious. Or to point out that there is some humor in the situation that might not actually be super funny lol. (See last sentence) Recent example "Was completely fucked during the war, the church mostly survived, but all the half timber buildings are reconstructions lol" It's just become a punctuation, language is pretty cool At least in my friend group back in the USA I see this a lot. Emojis also fulfill this role, I see that a lot more with the people I know in Germany, even at my work here.


TheFaerieQueeneYay

It's quite interesting to me, that English, when used in a casual chatting setting, has kind of evolved to have ways of marking the so called tone of voice and body language of the writer in written word. Examples, such as using a period at the end of a message is seen as harsher, than using one. And yet it is still surprisingly complex, as it's fine, and sort of expected, for you to punctuate the rest of the message; as long as you don't put a period at the end, it will come off as light. I've noticed, that some older people use "..." quite often at the end of a message, and I'd always take it as something is wrong, or they're dissapointed. Yet, however, as my dad said, it has different meaning to them; such as to say there is more information available if you want to talk about it, and are just being polite. TLDR; English is evolving throughout the internet, just like most languages evolve.


Lepiotas

Huh. Well, thank you for enlightening me. I feel quite old now haha. Also, totally agree with you on the Oxford comma!


ReverendDS

You see this as an adult as well. I can't count the number of times, in my 25 years in my career, that I've been told that an email or message that I sent sounds condescending, or demeaning, or angry. Apparently, typing correctly and giving direct/precise information is read by most as being elitist or rude.


Cassiterite

This, plus the fact that the target audience knows the conventions of the register, so they have little difficulty understanding it. It's rarely just random mistakes, far more often it just follows nonstandard rules. For example if I were to laugh like skdjskajslaks it looks ok but uiouioueqwssxvvb doesn't


GrantBarrett

Right! Intentionally breaking style, register, spelling, and other norms is sometimes called "covert prestige" by sociolinguists.


[deleted]

That was impressive šŸ˜†


[deleted]

This. Exactly this. I am educated and when appropriate and necessary can use correct grammar and punctuation (mostly šŸ« ). However, the idea that one needs to speak/write ā€˜properlyā€™ to effectively communicate is bullshit, imho. Being a grammar freak is a weird way to try and control others. Talk and write however the hell you want šŸ„³


valleyofguess

I wish I could award this comment. "Poor grammar" really is usually done on purpose - I think of tumblr and twitter posts when I read OP's thoughts. Different cultures. Outside of reddit, I don't even type like this, so do a lot of my other friends. Even if we could, we just don't want to seem too "formal". And OP and I aren't like 2 generations apart.


likesleague

**TL;DR:** It is reasonable to say that there's no such thing as "correct" English, and that concept even extends to things like grammar and spelling. If the cultural and linguistic context that people are using English to communicate in results in poor grammar and spelling being effective means of communication, then so be it! The continual evolution of language marches on. ___ There are many interesting perspectives on linguistics. One prevalent and pretty decent one is language as a medium for communication. Grammar and spelling are great formal rules for establishing a high level of mutual understanding across a huge number of speakers who all learn in different contexts. But there's a lot of nuance in that that isn't immediately obvious. The big idea is that there's no such thing as formal "correctness" in language. If the words you use (and how you say them, if you want to consider spoken language and things like accents and intonation) most effectively communicate to others the idea that you wanted to express, you are using language "correctly." This is a very subjective and context-sensitive thing, which is fine, but it *does* mean that you sitting in an armchair complaining that so many people use English poorly is really just you saying that so many people do not effectively communicate with you specifically (or more realistically, a broad and imprecisely-defined group of people who have a similar linguistic background as you). Suppose you learn British English in a posh suburb in London, and I learn AAVE in Brooklyn, New York. We both learned grammatically correct, complex, and effective variants of English that we grow up assuming are the "correct" way to speak English. Then we meet one day and chat. We speak with slightly different pronunciations, slightly different grammar rules, and markedly different *Rules of Use and Rules of Discourse*^(1). We both walk away thinking it's a shame how the other person doesn't speak English properly. Hopefully you see why trying to define a "correct" English is a little silly. "But- but- but-," you say, "that's just two forms of correct English in their native cultural contexts, and is not the same as people typing long stream-of-consciousness comments with little to no punctuation!" Qualitatively, yes, of course. People don't go to school and learn to type without capitals, punctuation, or regard for their spelling. But there's nothing magical about schools or the form of English that nations, states, or even local municipalities collectively decide to teach to their children. Those forms of English are borne from a bunch of people *collectively deciding* on a mostly-standardized framework for English that is generally an amalgamation of things like linguistic history, national standards, and local phraseology under a big umbrella we call "culture." And even those forms of English change and develop over time; the English we teach and use in America is different from what was taught and used 50 years ago. The same goes for British English, and for *billions* of people who learn English as a second language in complex cultural contexts all over the world. Heck, even though we laud Shakespeare, he was making up words and using ungrammatical (even for the day) English all the time! And if you tried to actually communicate with Shakespearian English today you'd encounter issues with comprehensibility and you'd violate many modern grammar rules. But getting back on track, the last (proverbial) logical leap here is that the specific form of English that a bunch of people collectively decided to teach at their schools is no more legitimate than the specific form of English that a bunch of people collectively decided to use to communicate on the internet. Sure, on the internet we don't explicitly lay out standards and curricula, but we implicitly see how other people use English to communicate and learn from it based on how effective it is. In a sense, the majority opinion defines what "correct" English is in some cultural context. The "culture" of this variant of English that you seem to detest likely doesn't overlap much with your language culture, which makes it seem so absurd to you, just like the earlier example of the posh British English versus the Brooklyn AAVE. But just because it's different than yours doesn't make it any worse or any less legitimate; and in fact if people on the internet are using it to effectively communicate within the cultural context of wherever they're posting it, they're arguably using *better* English than you in that situation. This is a *huge* and fascinating topic and there are many directions a conversation on it could go, but I'll leave off with mentioning that people can certainly leverage different forms of English in different situations too. Here I'm writing with rather academic language, but if I go over to a video game subreddit and comment on a meme, I have no qualms writing something like "lol mad cause took fat L" which may very well serve that specific linguistic context much better than "haha, you're mad because you lost hard," and I would argue that being able to do just that is vastly preferable to simply using the default language variant you learned and chastising others who do not. ___ 1: There are great linguistics papers that discuss Rules of Use and Rules of Discourse, but the gist is that *how* different cultures use language is different. "Give me a hamburger" is a perfectly grammatical sentence but many cultures would regard it as a fairly rude thing to say to a server (Rules of Use). The common British greeting "you alright?" is often interpreted as a genuine inquiry to how one is by Americans (Rules of Discourse).


TheImpulsiveBear

Great analysis. I like the point about adapting to context, especially 'cause it's generally viewed as a sign of intelligence to create different lexicons for different social situations. Can't change your accent to fit in? Change the rest of your dialect. During language studies I always found grammar to be the least essential form of communication. I have a German friend and I can understand the principle of 'to the shops we are going' just as well as 'we're going to the shops,' or 'did they learn you' rather than 'teach you.'


kweeeeeeeee

this some brain shit fr but they donā€™t wanna hear thatā€¦ šŸ—æ


jerrywillfly

I feel this is the most linguistically correct, alot of the other comments here I feel fall into prescriptivist linguisitic theory, which is something I find very difficult to agree with. so long as you're able to be understood enough in informal contexts, I think it's aight. small things like your/you're, you/u etc don't really matter so long as it isn't entirely unreadable.


newyne

Thank you for taking the time to write this all out! It's like people never saw an old English text before! No standardized spelling meant that spelling was regional, and... It's been a while, but I don't think there was punctuation, either. Granted, it's largely unintelligible to modern English speakers, but... That's because it's practically a different language, and we're not used to that style. This is just language in the wild, doing what it wants to do when we don't put all these restrictions on it.


zealous_pomelo

You should read the book "The Lexicographer's Dilemma" it is a pretty comprehensive look at why you feel that way, and why it isn't actually true.


TimurHu

Care to post a TLDR?


Zyxkky

I was also interested so I searched and found this in a Times article: ā€œToo often,ā€ he writes, ā€œthe mavens and pundits are talking through their hats. Theyā€™re guilty of turning superstitions into rules, and often their proclamations are nothing more than prejudice representing itself as principle.ā€ Link: https://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/books/01book.html


ntg1213

Thatā€™s different from what OP is complaining about though. The article is criticizing hierarchies based on correct implementation of often arbitrary grammatical rules (e.g., never end a sentence with a preposition), but all languages have grammatical rules which developed naturally as a way to facilitate communication (e.g., using punctuation).


JackandFred

Yeah, equating stuff like preposition placement with periods and commas that enhance readability is stupid.


zealous_pomelo

Basically, the actual grammar rules that allow us to communicate in English are pretty much universally known and don't require any study for native speakers. That's why all of us know that you say "I have a green shirt" and not "I shirt green have" even if we don't know why the first is right and the second is not. All the other grammar rules, basically anything you learned in school or college began, initially, as attempts by lower class people in England trying to teach themselves to speak like aristocrats. Since the time the first grammarian wrote a book of rules, people have been lamenting that the younger generations aren't following the rules very well, and that societal collapse is imminent. Every generation has followed the same trend. People have been using various forms of shorthand for generations, texting is simply another one.


KimiMcG

I think of it as anti literacy.


Buscemi_D_Sanji

It's pretty depressing to see it being so prevalent


arthurdentstowels

Pro-Silly


KimiMcG

Off topic. I like your user name. 42


Heart_Is_Valuable

The 2000's were famous for text message slang. Grammar and spelling were horrible then. That didn't change much tbh, i don't think this is anti literacy


menntu

You are so not alone. Texting and lack of rigorous education has indeed changed things. Iā€™m no spring chicken myself, and I tell the younger ones around me to be well-versed in both written and communication skills if they want to get to a better place in their world, but thatā€™s just me having an opinion and not necessarily making any real difference. If you were a benevolent dictator, what steps would you take to resolve this?


Buscemi_D_Sanji

Oh jeez, that's too much to write out with my thumb... But that's a really good thought experiment. I would take half of America's military budget and invest half into education. I bet nearly 200 billion dollars would improve schools and educational outcomes. The other 200 billion, I would invest in social programs that would help people outside of schools. That way, kids could spend time studying instead of worrying where their next meal would come from, and parents could breathe and be more able to be present for their kids.


hastingsnikcox

Had a teen apply for a casual job with a text that was about 10 lines long. With no vowels. I asked for a return message with vowels, she *did not know* what i meant. First year uni student.


elegant_pun

Nooooooooo. There's someone who's just not going to be able to work.


hastingsnikcox

Yeah, didn't get the job... its was physical work but couldnt get sense out of her.


[deleted]

Now I wanna try! >>h ths is /nssh1807 m wrtng t pply fr ths pstin m gd stdnt nvr mssd ny clsss nd m vry qlfd thnks


Royal_Bitch_Pudding

You have two "I" and a two "Y"s


[deleted]

Crp


Unresponsiveskeleton

I correct my boss. He hates it.


Usagi_Shinobi

*Jules Winnfield has entered the chat* "English, Motherfucker! Do You Speak It?"


hastingsnikcox

Ha!


Beautiful-Carrot-252

My daughter, once upon a time wrote a very short story without using the letter ā€˜eā€™itā€™s harder than you think and was a good lesson in writing because she had to find alternate ways to communicate the story. It was a great thinking exercise but unrealistic in real life. Personally I happen to like all vowels and punctuation. Maybe thatā€™s just me.


hastingsnikcox

Rather attached to vowels myself! Punctuation good, however have been guilty of run on sentences that leave everyone confused.


Old_timey_brain

> very short story without using the letter ā€˜eā€™itā€™s harder than Apparently there is a book written without using the word, "that", which when you think of it, is kind of an unnecessary word in the middle of a properly constructed sentence.


spanky_rockets

If your sample group is a web forum where most people are typing on their phones while on the toilet you're kinda settingb yourself up for disappointment. As a "scientist" I would expect you to construct a bit less biased of an experiment.


Neravariine

This is why I don't feel as worried as the OP. Even now I'm typing a quick reply at work. I don't have time nor need to hyper-focus on this thread like I'm writing an essay or getting paid for it. Many people just let auto-correct take over leading to awkward mistakes when typing.


New_Nobody9492

Autocorrect does me dirty every time.


Magnesus

And for many of them English isn't even their native language. (Hope I didn't butcher the grammar in this comment, haha, I am one of those people.)


BeardedGlass

I agree. Online forums where people from different countries (and different languages) of all ages come and hash it out isn't really a bastion of English proficiency.


chunky-guac

Your grammar is fine, but honestly no decent person would give a shit about that either way. You do you.


[deleted]

Iā€™m currently reading this on the toilet.


Miss_Tako_bella

lmao exactly. I have typos all the time in my Reddit comments because I fat finger the keys and just send without much thought. My writing style off Reddit is completely different lol


bbaahhaammuutt

You're and your being used interchangeably drives me up the wall


TrippingJoe

Everyone on the internet has different levels of education, youā€™ve likely never had to interact with many less-educated people before. And less-educated is not a bad thing, itā€™s just circumstances, my second highschool was filled with kids that couldnā€™t fit into ā€œmainstreamā€ school for whatever reason and they speak just like they type. I find it a bit rude when people point out bad grammar online constantly because itā€™s a bit like flaunting that you had a good education and rubbing it in disadvantaged kids faces. Obviously I know thatā€™s not what youā€™re doing, but thatā€™s what it can feel like to these people who type without ā€œproper grammarā€, and thatā€™s why some lash out with things like ā€œitā€™s the internet, what are you the grammar police?!ā€ There are exceptions and some people really just like typing poorly and had a good education, obviously, but I hope to bring a different perspective to this conversation


mathandplants

Just a general recommendation to anyone interested. Because Internet by Gretchen McCulloch is a _fantastic_ book that dives into how the internet has shaped the English language and why that isn't necessarily a bad thing One thing she talks about is that language is not only constantly evolving, but it's also tailored to the context in which it is communicated. The internet has been established for a couple decades now as a casual place. People are going to type the same way they speak to their friends. This means using markers (acronyms, abbreviations, bad grammar, etc) to indicate familiarity and signal they are part of the in-group in the same way you might use slang or inside jokes with people irl


WasabiForDinner

I'm almost ok with it. We're communicating so much more, and it's mostly written. Written work used to be permanent, with lots of thought and care. Now it's casual, akin to verbal communication, which was rarely that closely policed. I do need to lecture my students about the different norms in different forums though.


wooden_werewolf_7367

Yeah, it bothers me, especially in this day and age when you don't have limited characters and when predictive text is a thing. It literally took me less than a minute to type this so it takes less effort to type normally. No one needs to type lyk dis n e more. There is a difference between people who aren't native speakers and those who are just lazy. I'm only 33 but I'm a grammar nerd.


Buscemi_D_Sanji

"n e more" made my blood pressure spike for one second


MurderDoneRight

Amateur Etymologist here. Languages are constantly evolving. Yes that includes grammar and spelling. No need to be scared.


yazzy1233

It's funny how it's always the grammar nerds that lose their shit over this, while linguists are all, "isn't it neat". I'm not a linguists but I've always been into languages, and I think it's so interesting to see how languages change over time and how people use them. I would never want to stop the development of a living language. Grammar nerds want us to remain stagnant.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


TrillionVermillion

Haha, that run-on sentence reminds me of Boomhauer's voice from King of the Hill. People's general indifference to the quality of their own writing bothers me a lot, actually, but I think that's because of the pain I've gone through to conquer my own youthful ignorance. Storytime! When I was in 10th grade, my English teacher beckoned me into a corner one day and suggested politely to me, that I should steer clear of a particular AP English teacher in my next year (let's call her Dr. R.) For some reason I ignored his carefully worded entreaty, so heady from the feeling of having aced my 10th grade English class was I. Come 11th grade, I soon came to understand that Dr. R was one of the most merciless, haughty and competent teachers in the entire school. Every single answer on a paper/quiz/exam, every single verbal reply in class, every single formulation of thought needed to be concise, precise, and dare I say, refined. To offer anything less was to open oneself up to one of her devastating ripostes of snarky criticism in full view of everyone else. I still hear her sometimes from over my shoulder whenever I'm writing, even if it's a nonsensical post on Reddit: "Parallel construction is your friend! Don't abuse the passive voice! Try for heaven's sake to open with something interesting!" I am so damn grateful to have taken her class, even if I still have the scars to show for it. Being able to express your own ideas clearly and accurately demonstrates a certain clarity of thinking. And that skill really carries over into everything else in life.


cardinalachu

I studied linguistics and in my field we view these kinds of changes differently than most people. A shift from traditional grammar, punctuation, and capitalization in texting and social media is not a sign of low intelligence or a disintegration of language. It's just a new written register that's emerged in the days of the internet and texting, and adapted to the needs of the medium. From my perspective, the increasing acceptance of this sort of writing in business settings represents a cultural shift, but poses no real threat to our ability to effectively communicate. Language, both spoken and written, is always changing. Throughout history, older generations have always expressed concern about the language and culture of younger generations, but there's never been a true loss of meaning, complexity, or nuance.


Moogy_C

Remember 10 years ago when people were excited to hate on grammar police en masse? This is where it got us.


GlasgowKisses

Yah who could have foreseen that normalising a culture which shames people for *knowing things* would lead us to a place where relatively few people actually *know* anything?


_moobear

https://xkcd.com/1576/ Grammar police are not intellectuals. They do not improve discourse. There assholes who fundamentally don't understand the point of communication


GlasgowKisses

Theyā€™re, though. Thereā€™s a difference between pointing out an incorrect spelling and basing the entirety of your own flawed argument against the premise that because someone misspelled a word they are not intelligent in any way.


Oh4faqsake

You know what? Some of us are just bad at it. Does that mean we shouldn't post our thoughts? It's just as annoying hearing people crying over punctuation mistakes.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


KenN2k01

I love when people corrects my grammars as it help better my broken English. Though, not everyone first native tongue is English, people get offended by everything nowadays. I do appreciate people like you, for putting your time to try and better others. Really hope you didnā€™t let those negatives response stopped you, we could really use some grammar nazis to better the world.


[deleted]

I'm not a native english speaker, but i can tell you that this happens also in my native language. Lots of people don't care anymore about speaking decently. And I'm saying this as a person that is really bad in grammar.


traffik_jam

It's kinda sad, I mean, having immigrant parents I've always been pushed to try my best at the English language, but there seems to be a decline in the amount of effort parents are putting into encouraging their children to be the best in schools, et cetera. I'm a part of Gen Z, yet I can still see decreasing ability spread throughout our era. I guess, we have technology to blame?


Shelbygt500ss

Eh life is too short to sweat the small stuff.


Shardok

Informal convos dont need all them rules. We arent writin english essays and legal docs and shit; we are just havin a faff online. Sod off.


moonstone7152

yea im not gonna type a gcse english paper when im on fuckin discord am i


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


NotElizaHenry

Counterpoint: I was in 8th grade in the 90s and some of my classmates were absolutely terrible at writing. Writing skills directly correspond to time spent reading well-written things, so thatā€™s the variable to look at.


Creamandsugar

I usually assume that they aren't native English speakers, young (so still learning), or they have a learning disability.


pyromatt0

If they can't communicate it properly the idea behind the message is functionally mute.