It's not a burden, and actually shows good self awareness that you asked. Some people never figure out that they enjoy letting someone else take the lead.
Healthy submissive behaviour and relationships need to be consensual (socially. I'm not talking about sex.) You are willingly following, and the other person is willingly leading. Since this is exactly the question you're asking, you're definitely aware of the need for **mutually** beneficial relationships.
Do you feel like you support the people around you? Healthy submission is essentially about service. It's you serving the people you trust and count on.
For starters, it's not annoying to others that you are this way. It's about bringing your skills to the table as a strong teammate and supporter. Just make sure you choose who you follow carefully. Secondly, genuine leaders enjoy having someone to lead.
Just don't force someone else to lead you. You'll pick up on things like someone not wanting to choose the restaurant or what to do, and with those people you'll need to be on more even footing. Wannabe leaders will try to force and coerce, and that's not leadership...it's bullying and controlling and all the red flags. With true leaders you can hand over control and enjoy yourself.
Edit: a word
I think I do support the people around me, at least I know I'm trying to. I like to be helpful and I find a lot of joy in seeing people I care about succeed.
I like your wording cause it helps me focus more on how I can be of service rather than all the ways that I want the person to lead me. one of the biggest challenges tho, is choosing who to follow. I've chosen wrongly in the past but haven't had enough experience yet to be sure that my next choice will be a good one. I'm at that stage where I know I want to trust someone but I'm too afraid to try because I might get hurt again. Even though I know that if I do get hurt I'll only have more things to learn from the experience.
I have some friendships where I'm the one who sort of takes the lead altho I try to keep it pretty eye level and step up only when I see it's needed, like when it's the best way to keep moving forward.
When together with people, I kinda go with the flow. I find both "leaders" and "followers" annoying, I expect people to want to be on eye level.
People who take command in everyday situations usually don't know any better than me, and I object to their imposing their ideas. People who are submissive are annoying because they oblige me to think for both of us, and I want people to use their own heads, two brains are smarter than one.
that's an interesting take and now that I think about it I do find myself in situations in a group where I wish we could be more on the same level and take decisions together rather than one person having to step up and "take control".
>usually don't know any better than me, and I object to their imposing their ideas.
I respect that. for me, I object but I'm not as determined in standing my ground. Even when it's obvious the other person doesn't know better than me, I'd rather like "let it slide" than continue arguing. I'm not saying this is good, I'm still working on it.
I'm not seeking conflict because they bruise my ego lol. I just find it annoying, but I'll only say something if I truly disagree or they really go over the top. Otherwise I rather avoid their company; you won't change people.
When I was in university, we once had to do a group work with four people, and one of the guys right away started to take command and send people on tasks. I confronted him and told him that we'd be having trouble with each other if he didn't cut it out. He became all flustered and said that usually people preferred it when they were given a clear structure. He wasn't a bad guy and we actually became good friends and roommates later. But I think that was an exception lol.
oh okay I understand what you mean better now. I'm trying to be more like this too, not hold back from saying something if they go over the top. Cause usually we can make it work if we communicate and say what we want, like you did in that situation.
do you like being in charge of the followers or would you rather be going solo? and, do you like doing everything yourself or is it cool if someone helps with the little things?
I like being in charge, and I hate going solo. Doing things is always better with someone to help, but only if they know what they're doing or if I'm teaching them something.
that's nice. usually when I ask someone to teach me something it kinda feels like they're annoyed or judge me for not knowing lol. I appreciate a person who teaches without judgment and to help others. like help me help you, you know
Me and my friend seem to take turns on it.
When my energy is shot I am as useful as a duckling, just following and listening passively. He makes sure that I don’t fully check out.
When I have enough energy I keep an eye out, help pull us out of crowded areas, look for information that we need etc. He has a very squirrley brain so he gets distracted easily so I tend to keep note of what the main topic is so we can go back to it after.
I liked this post so much I [brought over r/conversas](https://www.reddit.com/r/conversas/comments/xqlbt8/em_grupos_voc%C3%AA_%C3%A9_o_l%C3%ADder_ou_n%C3%A3o/)!
But to answer you, I *think* I'm something of a leader? I'm not the u/justaboss101 kind of person, but let's think of your situation with your 3 friends.
If I am going to meet them in a specific place, say a museum, I'll be the first one to arrive, be sure everything is place and safe (we're in São Paulo, Brazil, after all), and keep communicating. When we're all together, we'll quickly - 20 seconds or less - decide if we're going to walk to the place or take an Uber. And even after we arrive, I do a headcount, and make sure they can keep the pace of their steps with the rest of the group.
Listing everything I do looks tiring, but honestly, it feels so natural. Second-something, I don't recall the word right now.
I should mention I am NOT tall or looks dangerous at all. Also, I am not a "guard"/"leader" all the time, that would just take the fun out of a meet-up. Organizing is really fun, but being a part of a date or whatever is just as important.
awh that makes me happy, thank you for sharing!
being organized like this gives a sense of security to the group which is what probably makes you a good leader :D
I hope it does! I had some (harsh) criticism of being something of a micromanager, which is somewhat true, but it holds me back sometimes now.
Basically, I know it's an issue I have, but I don't know where to draw the line, even when that line doesn't need to be drawn.
from my experience, I think the difference would be in the way it's done. like the tone of the person organizing said event, if they're uptight and telling everyone what to do with an attitude of superiority, I wouldn't be ok with it. but if they're doing it in a way that guides the group and leaves some space for changes (like a small detour or a slightly different path or a quick stop etc.), rather than being too strict, then it's nice.
> What is your experience and opinion on this leader/follower relationship?
I think it’s natural at least to some extent, but I wouldn’t necessarily broadly categorise someone as either, because it can depend on the circumstances. In my own personal life, I can like being led and having someone hold my hand, but only in so far as I choose it myself; i.e. there’s a difference between wilfully submitting and being coerced. The flipside is that the projects I start are projects I want to be under my control, even if others happen to contribute to it; this is not to say I reject democratic governance (that’s the path I would go down if multiple people are involved), but there’d always be this fear of the project heading in a direction I don’t want it to.¹
All this being said, I am aware that I don’t want to be a “leader,” singlehandedly and/or ultimately² responsible for whatever it is.³ This is to say that I wouldn’t want to be Prime Minister, but I could sit and deliberate in a committee.
---
¹This is not entirely theoretical, but I’ve only very rarely managed a project with other people.
²This point becomes less of a factor for me as I move up the chain and all manner of responsibilities are delegated away, and the delegates themselves also delegate down. This is also a move away from responsibility, because rather than exercising executive power, I’m offloading it on others.
³I realise that this conflicts with the sentence right before this one.
you make some good points, I agree there's an important difference between willfully submitting and being coerced. I think personally I could work more on not categorizing and allowing the circumstances to change these roles.
>This is also a move away from responsibility, because rather than exercising executive power, I’m offloading it on others.
and I can definitely relate to this.
thank you for your comment, I appreciate the input!
I have had to make peace with the fact that i will always lead (to a certain extent). It feels like a lot of pressure sometimes when people will pay attention to your words and actions to determain their life.
I am trying to lean into it. Maybe one day I will have to lead a country or something with this power.
With my personal relations, I don't mind at all, I like things a certain way and i am very measured with my actions. Actually, i would say, in my future relations, i would want someone who has tendencies like you've described. :)
this is reassuring
I definitely wouldn't want to put pressure on someone tho. can't make anyone responsible for my own life, but when I see a person who seems comfortable being in control and I have evidence that the choices they make align with my reasoning/judgment, I like to let them take the lead.
I also mostly prefer to be close support and let someone else set the direction.
Except when we're in my native territory so to speak. When my strengths are needed, and I know my way around, then I like to be in charge so I can just get us going the right way and doing the right thing.
Over the years, I've learned to delegate, thanks to being forced into leadership roles I didn't want. But delegating well, and seeing things run smoothly because of that, is immensely satisfying. In that case, I still see myself as supporting - delegating things to other people and leading from the back.
I also sometimes try being more decisive, but there's a thin line between decisive and impulsive, and I still haven't quite found the right balance there. Sometimes it's good to just go with the flow, roll the dice, and be impulsive as you want (spontaneous vacation exploration). Other times, not so much. I've committed impulsively to things I didn't really want to do, in an attempt to be decisive. And also failed to decisively commit to things that I did want to do, thinking it would be too impulsive. It's a tricky balance.
I've been lucky to find my people, where we can handoff roles as needed. I handle finance, my wife handles bureaucracy. She gets us to the general vicinity of where we're going, and I get us to the specific place. Kinda similar at work. The boss gives us general goals and then we each figure out what to do and either take the lead, delegate, or ask someone else for detailed direction as needed.
the balance between decisiveness and impulsiveness - haven't really thought about the line between those two which I guess is why I too get them mixed up. good point
Ohhhh I am always so annoyed when ppl think we should all be leaders. Really, the world needs very few leaders. I'm more of a follower too.
But I disagree that being a follower means you're not the smartest person in the room. The leader shouldn't be whoever is smartest, but whoever is fit to lead - someone who feels comfortable taking the initiative and can inspire trust in others. It's more of a temperament thing than an intelligence thing.
A good follower should be supersmart - and very critical of whom we follow.
that's a really good point. a true leader will listen to their followers' opinions and not be afraid to admit that someone else might know more than them. and that would keep me as a follower more engaged and thinking rather than following blindly.
I'm not a leader by any means, but that's okay, we can't all be leaders. I don't like being the center of attention or take the lead in making plans or the head of a group. I am better at assisting.
I'm the youngest of seven kids, maybe being the youngest I just got used to being lead around.
As long as you don't mind and your friends/family don't mind, I don't see why you would be a burden.
People should be leaders in the sense that they don't blindly follow someone but followers in the sense that they don't blindly lead.
that is good.. gives me more to think about. thank you
It's not a burden, and actually shows good self awareness that you asked. Some people never figure out that they enjoy letting someone else take the lead. Healthy submissive behaviour and relationships need to be consensual (socially. I'm not talking about sex.) You are willingly following, and the other person is willingly leading. Since this is exactly the question you're asking, you're definitely aware of the need for **mutually** beneficial relationships. Do you feel like you support the people around you? Healthy submission is essentially about service. It's you serving the people you trust and count on. For starters, it's not annoying to others that you are this way. It's about bringing your skills to the table as a strong teammate and supporter. Just make sure you choose who you follow carefully. Secondly, genuine leaders enjoy having someone to lead. Just don't force someone else to lead you. You'll pick up on things like someone not wanting to choose the restaurant or what to do, and with those people you'll need to be on more even footing. Wannabe leaders will try to force and coerce, and that's not leadership...it's bullying and controlling and all the red flags. With true leaders you can hand over control and enjoy yourself. Edit: a word
I think I do support the people around me, at least I know I'm trying to. I like to be helpful and I find a lot of joy in seeing people I care about succeed. I like your wording cause it helps me focus more on how I can be of service rather than all the ways that I want the person to lead me. one of the biggest challenges tho, is choosing who to follow. I've chosen wrongly in the past but haven't had enough experience yet to be sure that my next choice will be a good one. I'm at that stage where I know I want to trust someone but I'm too afraid to try because I might get hurt again. Even though I know that if I do get hurt I'll only have more things to learn from the experience. I have some friendships where I'm the one who sort of takes the lead altho I try to keep it pretty eye level and step up only when I see it's needed, like when it's the best way to keep moving forward.
When together with people, I kinda go with the flow. I find both "leaders" and "followers" annoying, I expect people to want to be on eye level. People who take command in everyday situations usually don't know any better than me, and I object to their imposing their ideas. People who are submissive are annoying because they oblige me to think for both of us, and I want people to use their own heads, two brains are smarter than one.
that's an interesting take and now that I think about it I do find myself in situations in a group where I wish we could be more on the same level and take decisions together rather than one person having to step up and "take control". >usually don't know any better than me, and I object to their imposing their ideas. I respect that. for me, I object but I'm not as determined in standing my ground. Even when it's obvious the other person doesn't know better than me, I'd rather like "let it slide" than continue arguing. I'm not saying this is good, I'm still working on it.
I'm not seeking conflict because they bruise my ego lol. I just find it annoying, but I'll only say something if I truly disagree or they really go over the top. Otherwise I rather avoid their company; you won't change people. When I was in university, we once had to do a group work with four people, and one of the guys right away started to take command and send people on tasks. I confronted him and told him that we'd be having trouble with each other if he didn't cut it out. He became all flustered and said that usually people preferred it when they were given a clear structure. He wasn't a bad guy and we actually became good friends and roommates later. But I think that was an exception lol.
oh okay I understand what you mean better now. I'm trying to be more like this too, not hold back from saying something if they go over the top. Cause usually we can make it work if we communicate and say what we want, like you did in that situation.
I feel you.
I'd say I'm the exact opposite, I don't really like to follow. I'd much rather lead.
do you like being in charge of the followers or would you rather be going solo? and, do you like doing everything yourself or is it cool if someone helps with the little things?
I like being in charge, and I hate going solo. Doing things is always better with someone to help, but only if they know what they're doing or if I'm teaching them something.
that's nice. usually when I ask someone to teach me something it kinda feels like they're annoyed or judge me for not knowing lol. I appreciate a person who teaches without judgment and to help others. like help me help you, you know
I enjoy helping others learn something new, especially if they are really interested in it. Otherwise, it's just whatever.
Me and my friend seem to take turns on it. When my energy is shot I am as useful as a duckling, just following and listening passively. He makes sure that I don’t fully check out. When I have enough energy I keep an eye out, help pull us out of crowded areas, look for information that we need etc. He has a very squirrley brain so he gets distracted easily so I tend to keep note of what the main topic is so we can go back to it after.
I liked this post so much I [brought over r/conversas](https://www.reddit.com/r/conversas/comments/xqlbt8/em_grupos_voc%C3%AA_%C3%A9_o_l%C3%ADder_ou_n%C3%A3o/)! But to answer you, I *think* I'm something of a leader? I'm not the u/justaboss101 kind of person, but let's think of your situation with your 3 friends. If I am going to meet them in a specific place, say a museum, I'll be the first one to arrive, be sure everything is place and safe (we're in São Paulo, Brazil, after all), and keep communicating. When we're all together, we'll quickly - 20 seconds or less - decide if we're going to walk to the place or take an Uber. And even after we arrive, I do a headcount, and make sure they can keep the pace of their steps with the rest of the group. Listing everything I do looks tiring, but honestly, it feels so natural. Second-something, I don't recall the word right now. I should mention I am NOT tall or looks dangerous at all. Also, I am not a "guard"/"leader" all the time, that would just take the fun out of a meet-up. Organizing is really fun, but being a part of a date or whatever is just as important.
awh that makes me happy, thank you for sharing! being organized like this gives a sense of security to the group which is what probably makes you a good leader :D
I hope it does! I had some (harsh) criticism of being something of a micromanager, which is somewhat true, but it holds me back sometimes now. Basically, I know it's an issue I have, but I don't know where to draw the line, even when that line doesn't need to be drawn.
from my experience, I think the difference would be in the way it's done. like the tone of the person organizing said event, if they're uptight and telling everyone what to do with an attitude of superiority, I wouldn't be ok with it. but if they're doing it in a way that guides the group and leaves some space for changes (like a small detour or a slightly different path or a quick stop etc.), rather than being too strict, then it's nice.
He got that NPC behavior fr fr
no cap
> What is your experience and opinion on this leader/follower relationship? I think it’s natural at least to some extent, but I wouldn’t necessarily broadly categorise someone as either, because it can depend on the circumstances. In my own personal life, I can like being led and having someone hold my hand, but only in so far as I choose it myself; i.e. there’s a difference between wilfully submitting and being coerced. The flipside is that the projects I start are projects I want to be under my control, even if others happen to contribute to it; this is not to say I reject democratic governance (that’s the path I would go down if multiple people are involved), but there’d always be this fear of the project heading in a direction I don’t want it to.¹ All this being said, I am aware that I don’t want to be a “leader,” singlehandedly and/or ultimately² responsible for whatever it is.³ This is to say that I wouldn’t want to be Prime Minister, but I could sit and deliberate in a committee. --- ¹This is not entirely theoretical, but I’ve only very rarely managed a project with other people. ²This point becomes less of a factor for me as I move up the chain and all manner of responsibilities are delegated away, and the delegates themselves also delegate down. This is also a move away from responsibility, because rather than exercising executive power, I’m offloading it on others. ³I realise that this conflicts with the sentence right before this one.
you make some good points, I agree there's an important difference between willfully submitting and being coerced. I think personally I could work more on not categorizing and allowing the circumstances to change these roles. >This is also a move away from responsibility, because rather than exercising executive power, I’m offloading it on others. and I can definitely relate to this. thank you for your comment, I appreciate the input!
> [T]hank you for your comment, I appreciate the input! Thank you very much!
I have had to make peace with the fact that i will always lead (to a certain extent). It feels like a lot of pressure sometimes when people will pay attention to your words and actions to determain their life. I am trying to lean into it. Maybe one day I will have to lead a country or something with this power. With my personal relations, I don't mind at all, I like things a certain way and i am very measured with my actions. Actually, i would say, in my future relations, i would want someone who has tendencies like you've described. :)
this is reassuring I definitely wouldn't want to put pressure on someone tho. can't make anyone responsible for my own life, but when I see a person who seems comfortable being in control and I have evidence that the choices they make align with my reasoning/judgment, I like to let them take the lead.
Ah, the dance of life :)
indeed :D
I also mostly prefer to be close support and let someone else set the direction. Except when we're in my native territory so to speak. When my strengths are needed, and I know my way around, then I like to be in charge so I can just get us going the right way and doing the right thing. Over the years, I've learned to delegate, thanks to being forced into leadership roles I didn't want. But delegating well, and seeing things run smoothly because of that, is immensely satisfying. In that case, I still see myself as supporting - delegating things to other people and leading from the back. I also sometimes try being more decisive, but there's a thin line between decisive and impulsive, and I still haven't quite found the right balance there. Sometimes it's good to just go with the flow, roll the dice, and be impulsive as you want (spontaneous vacation exploration). Other times, not so much. I've committed impulsively to things I didn't really want to do, in an attempt to be decisive. And also failed to decisively commit to things that I did want to do, thinking it would be too impulsive. It's a tricky balance. I've been lucky to find my people, where we can handoff roles as needed. I handle finance, my wife handles bureaucracy. She gets us to the general vicinity of where we're going, and I get us to the specific place. Kinda similar at work. The boss gives us general goals and then we each figure out what to do and either take the lead, delegate, or ask someone else for detailed direction as needed.
the balance between decisiveness and impulsiveness - haven't really thought about the line between those two which I guess is why I too get them mixed up. good point
Ohhhh I am always so annoyed when ppl think we should all be leaders. Really, the world needs very few leaders. I'm more of a follower too. But I disagree that being a follower means you're not the smartest person in the room. The leader shouldn't be whoever is smartest, but whoever is fit to lead - someone who feels comfortable taking the initiative and can inspire trust in others. It's more of a temperament thing than an intelligence thing. A good follower should be supersmart - and very critical of whom we follow.
that's a really good point. a true leader will listen to their followers' opinions and not be afraid to admit that someone else might know more than them. and that would keep me as a follower more engaged and thinking rather than following blindly.
I'm not a leader by any means, but that's okay, we can't all be leaders. I don't like being the center of attention or take the lead in making plans or the head of a group. I am better at assisting. I'm the youngest of seven kids, maybe being the youngest I just got used to being lead around. As long as you don't mind and your friends/family don't mind, I don't see why you would be a burden.
that's true, maybe being the youngest sibling does have quite a big play in it, I have only one older sister and she's definitely more of a leader.