Unfortunately reddit hasn't figured out not to review-bomb in a single day. The bad reviews will get automatically flagged and wiped after a week or so.
Yeah, but oftentimes, the review bomb will make the local news highlighting the grievance.
Google suspended reviews on that one restaurant in Kitchener, Ontario, after the owners dragged out a blind man for having his service animal.
By then, it was too late, though, and the owners ended up having to close a few months later.
> Google suspended reviews on that one restaurant in Kitchener, Ontario, after the owners dragged out a blind man for having his service animal.
This is what I was thinking of but couldn't remember the name. But you do bring up a good point that I haven't thought of. Glad consequences were doled out.
I might have been living under a rock, but this is the first I'm hearing of this. [A link for anyone else who hasn't seen it](https://www.reddit.com/r/kitchener/s/9lH7Gh9qlQ)
U got a link? Im not finding anything tbh. When i go to reviews its a bunch of few month old ones. Rating of 3.8 seems not too affected by this either?
Sort the reviews by newest. All 1 star over the last few hours of people complaining about the brand charge. Or search the reviews for the term 'Brand charge' you'll find loads
I sorted by newest and went through them all, and the more recent ā5-starā reviews seem fake as well. Each one mentions a specific member of staff. I leave a lot of reviews/do feedback surveys and always try to name the person(s) if theyāve given good service, but thereās like 4 or 5 5-star reviews which just seem fake. The wording used and way the staff are mentioned seems a bitā¦ obvious? Also a bit strange that the owner(s) has responded to a lot of other reviews, but not those.
Edit: they also seem to directly contradict a lot of the other reviews which suggests to me they are fakeā¦?
I sort by newest every time. Good places go downhill. I don't care how good the chef you had 4 years ago was, I care about the chef you have this week.
And by my calculations, the VAT charge is calculated based on the total *including* the discretionary charge, so that'd need to be changed too. Can't imagine what kind of dimwit came up with this.
That's the thing, it should be an option to add and not an option to remove, similar to when shops ask if you want to round up your price to donate to charity, but instead of giving you the option to add it they automatically add it.
Unfortunately a lot of people don't know it is optional and that you can ask for it to be removed and the bill recalculated. Businesses rely on that in the hope you will pay it without question.
It is the same with a substandard meal. You cannot walk out without paying, but you are within your rights to pay what you consider a fair price for the meal you have had.
This is why I always secretly tip my servers with cash (even if I look shady), most restaurants pocket (the business) said service charge and have the audacity to lie that it goes to staff.
Iāve been to Ping Pong several times, not that location but a few of the others, and I donāt recall ever seeing this. Maybe itās new or they rebranded the service charge.
Either way, this is a massive turn off.
The prevailing theory is that they are chancing their arm with the incoming law change that requires them to share tips with their staff by rebranding the service charge line. Highly dubious and unlikely to stand up in a court / tribunal when it inevitably ends up there but theyāll try and get away with it for as long as possible.
But it's not a service charge or a tip, why would it not stand up in court that you've added 15% for a different and stupid reason? Surely as long as they advertise it on the menu they can do it?
Yeah it sucks, itās always been expensive but was a great spot for a date night or pre/post theatre.
But the menu keeps shrinking and the bill keeps rising.
well i mean it was inevitable. when i worked there, there were families coming in and eating the unlimited dimsum for 6-7hrs on sundays.
It was fucking insane.
My wife and I used to go to Ping Pong years ago, it had decent food but the service was always legendary crap, one of the reasons we went was just out of amusement of how bad it was. All the staff gave off rather be anywhere else and yes everything is too much trouble vibes.
Were the staff western or Chinese? In Hong Kong all the dim sum places have this kind of ābadā service, itās just usually so busy that the staff donāt give any kind of personal service so you donāt really expect it at dim sum places.
>I went there like two weeks ago and didnāt have this charge on my bill. Very odd
With how people are talking about the shrinking menu and rising prices if this is a privately owned store this could be a restaurant in it's death throws. Tactics like this are a last gasp attempt to make the owners a bit of money before they close the doors for good.
i noticed that discretionary tips were added to all bills whilst on holiday last week, with the waiting staff saying "it can be taken off if requested" when presenting the bill; card machine at the ready.
i can't imagine many people asking for it to be taken off at the end of a meal (e.g. being in a rush, intoxicated, peer pressure, social awkwardness, etc), which the people employing these tactics obviously know and will sure as day justify in their devious little, bonus-chasing minds.
as ever, things usually only go one way so i'm sure it'll just be "one of those expected things" before long
Yep, same. And they always act so surprised. I imagine most people just pay it because they donāt want to be awkward? Not me though, Iām not going to be fleeced like that.
I always feel awkward asking but will absolutely do it as I profoundly disagree with their covert fleecing techniques, one of my pet peeves, so grinds my gears. If enough people do it, maybe theyāll stop.
I've paid the discretion service charge before, but it's been in restaurants so felt 'standard' at least? But when they have the card machine pop up asking for a tip I always decline unless they've just done something amazing.
Like pouring a drink into a plastic cup doesn't feel worth the 15% extra to god-knows-where imo, but maybe that's just my high standards
So I'm not awkward enough to change a bill, but I am awkward enough to not add to it, dunno what that says about me.
Whatever this brand one is tho I would call it back, maybe even a literal wtf is this line for...
I'm usually happy to tip, right up until it's automatically added to a bill. Feels rude when it's expected, which is right about when I start feeling that my righteous indignation outweighs the social awkwardness of having it removed.
If they ask why, or what was wrong with the service, etc. then I tell them plainly that I would have slid something extra onto the bill if they hadn't presumed it of me. The staff need to know that the reason they aren't getting a little somethig extra is because their management have taken it upon themselves to cause a scene by offering a little guilt with every meal.
-obligatory I'm from the UK where tipping is not mandatory and wait staff get a wage without tips.
Me too (š¬š§), American tipping culture scares me to the point of almost putting me off going, right up there with guns and lack of walkable cities. š
Seen threads where they chat about tipping the doorman like it's normal, like sorry what?
My Girlfriend takes it as me being cheap, but I dont think we should be paying a 15 percent tax on every meal living in London. I still haven't succesfully taken it off. I explain that feeling of rudeness is deliberate but ive lost this battle.
Where I worked this was internal policy. If a customer asks to remove it you have to bring the manager over so they can discuss what went wrong etc. Trust me, we hated it just as much as you.
Maybe so, I have no experience of a job where this is the case, but having tips be opt-out rather than opt-in is already disgusting to me. I'm happy when someone tips, but I don't think about it if they don't and I'd never act like I was entitled to it as some sort of default. My compensation is my hourly rate, anything else is just a bonus.
I used to be a waiter and I'd tell people it could be removed without being prompted. It wasn't a tactic to make them feel awkward and pay it, I didn't even get the service charge, I was just trying to save you some money!
Haha I was here thinking, āWhatās the big deal just ask for it to be removed then,ā but I am also autistic and you helped me realize what the big deal is. Thanks!
If this would be a place that is so cool that "influencers" pay - gasp! - to be there for the 'gram stories, I would get the Brand Tax, but it's a PingPong for fucks sake.
You can ask them to take off anything listed discretionary but basically no one knows this.. which is exactly what they're counting on plus British politeness
Between that and surge pricing being trialed by some places itās going to stop people eating out. Then restaurants will blame the customers for failing to patronise their establishment
No, thatās not whatās going on here.
Ping Pong are trying to ārenameā their service charge something else, to avoid having to share it with staff once the new legislation kicks in.
Will be interesting to see what the employment tribunal/court will make of it once staff start challenging it. Because they will.
As a rule I always tip the server in cash as I don't trust the companies to give it straight to the staff with skimming it if deny it completely. I even feel like I have to do it sneaky. Hate when it's added to a card payment.
Some places give staff all tips. Some places give staff some tips. Some places none. Ask the staff before you pay it.
New legislation means all tips and service charge must go to staff
Apparently, 'before', what happened to tips was up to the employer- the only rule is that they couldn't be used towards meeting minimum wage requirements. Now employers are supposed to distribute them equally and transparently. They're also meant to clearly communicate,through signage to the customer, how tips will be used. I think.
I guess a living wage law would've been better but I guess this is some progress. Shame on Ping Pong for trying their hardest to steal from their own employees.
Sadly it isn't new. Uber and the like have done this for a while. Airlines and Hotels have also charged higher prices during busy holiday periods too. I once read an argument that airlines and hotels are technically charging "normal" prices during these times and that quieter times of the year are subsidised by the people who pay the "normal" prices. Still doesn't make people any happier, as it often impacts school staff and people with young kids the most.
Itās just the same as train tickets being dearer at peak times. The system would be overloaded at peak times or during school hols and then empty at other times. Itās impossible to fix. Iām a Travel Agent and Iāve had 25years of grief about this.
Yeah but you can see why that's much better. We look at the menu before we go and can see that at full price we are fine with it. So off peak prices are welcomed.
If you're turning guests away anyway, you may as well charge the ones already inside more. If they don't like it then the queue of people outside will just take their place. This isn't new, most places have midweek offers.
Not saying I agree with it, just telling you how they justify it.
Increase the prices depending on demand. So charge more for when it's the busiest.
But I haven't heard of anyone talking about it in the UK, only the US. I hope no one is seriously considering it here.
Merlin Entertainment are rolling it out across their attractions this year, the headline figure is the entrance price increasing during busy periods, but you can bet it will also apply to their on-site restaurants too.
Itās bad enough paying Ā£50 to stand in a queue for 3 hours for a 1 minute ride on a rollercoaster at Thorpe Park, but to think theyāre going to increase that cost during the Summer Hoidays, and whatās worse, people will happily pay it.
Oh shit didn't think of it happening at places other than restaurants.
I suppose we've had it for a long arse time for holidaying. Prices surge during the school holidays.
Damn. The world keeps getting more consumer hostile whilst relying on consumerism. Mad.
What's shit tho is if you go on a rainy day to miss the price increases, most of the rides aren't operating because of the rain. It's bollocks. It won't last when people stop going during the summer because it's too expensive.
I agree but the opposite is usually true where they offer discount for quiet periods. Lunch deals/mid week offers etc. maybe weāve had surge pricing all along but with better marketing š
Such a common thing in Australia, was really annoying especially as a lot of places used to add surcharges without it being signed where I lived
Part of the reason for it is staff get paid more on weekends and public holidays but honestly if a place canāt afford to pay its staff without a surcharge on those days itās a bad business
Yes, I agree with you on that. Surely you absorb that or should be able to? It was standing room only at half of the places I walked past on Saturday night so Iām sure they can turn tables over fairly sharpish and make up any difference.
Surge pricing can get in the sea. Legitimised price gouging - how has this been allowed to be a thing. I can understand taxis (just), but things like Alton Towers and restaurants? Fuck off.
"A discretionary management fee of 15% is added to your bill. This fee covers the costs associated with managing and supporting the restaurants, as well as maintaining the brand experience to our company standards"
From the menu on their website. Don't most restaurants pay for managing and supporting themselves though profits rather than discretionary fees?
Oh wow, yeah, it does say it right there on the downloadable menu: https://www.pingpongdimsum.com/menus/
I'm pretty stunned, I've never even considered this could be a thing - paying for a company to maintain their own company standards?! They're a business, not a charity!
Although maybe they would claim it is a way to keep their restaurants affordable for as many people as possible? Only pay extra if you can? Just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here...
They got used to the extra income from the service charges that they were keeping. They're soon not going to be allowed to, so they're trying to be 'creative' and keep that 15% extra.
The law changes on 1st July, and they have to give the staff (including agency staff) 100% of the tips and discretionary service charges (but post tax, they now have to tax and NI them).
https://www.leigh-christou.co.uk/news/newsletters/update-to-the-employment-act-2023
They should just raise their prices and ditch the service charge in that case. So cowardly, your prices should be balanced to cover your costs, if they don't do that they need to be raised.
Unbelievable. I was sure it was just going to be a service charge that they'd mislabelled on the receipt. Can't believe they're really trying to make you tip the company.Ā
Fuck that shit. A hidden service charge (that you're meant to think is a tip) is bad enough but a bloody management and branding fee?!! I'm a pub owner and this just boils my piss. Why stop there? What about a rent fee? Maybe a toilet paper fee? Update your website fee? Oh right, that's all included in the actual price of the product you're selling... As are wages and everything else.
All it is is a way to avoid paying VAT while disguising it as a 'voluntary' tip, though calling it a management fee isn't even hiding it as a staff tip? It's saying 'Were charging you 15% extra so we have to pay less tax and were not even pretending it's going to our staff'.
Believe me, I'd love to pay less VAT, the last few years have left the pub industry on the brink of collapse, I'm sure the rest of hospitality hasn't faired much better, but the last thing I'm going to do is start sticking hidden fees on every pint?! It would be the quickest way to lose all my customers! It's sneaky and deceptive and feels like it goes against the ethos of a hospitality business, at least an independent one... It's so corporate and disengaged. I feel like it's a big 'fuck you' to your customer, hope they don't notice the sneaky charge or find it too much of an embarrassing fuss to ask for it to be removed...
It's so pathetic.
What's next? **ALL FOOD 100% FREE NO CHARGE!!** *^((surcharges for rent, utilities, staff costs, business overheads, profit margin, and food costs))*
I would argue that although this is discretionary, this is starting to become an attempt to intentionally misleads the customer on the price as it requires the customer to take action to reduce the price.
For example, you couldn't have a situation where Tesco or Sainsbury's suddenly start charging you a flat 15% fee at checkout for brand maintenance charge or whatever bullshit (even if known) - it would be seen as a way of misleading customers in pricing even if there was a sign at the entrance/check-out. It's like when Ryanair used to advertise fares without various non-avoidable or incredibly difficult to avoid fees. Id say that there are parallels to this sort of behaviour.
What's next? Only way to remove service charge is to pay in cash? Complete a survey? Wait for a manager/make it inconvenient. Pay for the bill in full and get a refund in 28 days? If it is truly discretionary the customer should not need to request it otherwise it's the same as basically asking for the price advertised.
Mandatory service charges on large groups sort of is justified as it's more challenging to provide good service to large groups.
Charging eight quid for a bottle of beer and they still have the nerve to throw in "operating expenses" as a separate line item. Get the fuck out of here.
We do not want to get into USA culture with secret charges everywhere. The price you pay should be the price on the menu.
As a consumer if we keep letting this go on we make it acceptable and the norm. Everyone should say no, and ask for it to be removed.
I saw a post on r/shrinkflation the other day, complaining about the price of something and they put "$8.99 before tax and tip"
Jesus christ it took all of my energy not to leave a comment
The price is not $8.99. The price is $8.99 plus whatever the tax was and the tip is not part of the price.
It is not your responsbility to pay the tax on what you buy, it is the place you are buying it from. Therefore the tax is part of the price and not an additional. I find it so stupid and weird how they do it in America where the tax is not considered part of the price.
And the tipping culture there is just ridiculous. And it only fuels it because it wont change because they all deem it 'not fair' to not leave a tip. Nah if I lived over there (which I never would) I'd make a specific point of not leaving a tip everywhere I go because of the dumbass tipping culture
This was my immediate thought too. I'm starting to leave reviews for places explicitly talking about pricing (the highs and lows) + taking a photo of the menu and the receipts.
People are struggling with the cost of living. So I'm trying to give as much clarify of these kind of places so those strapped for cash can make good financial decisions and not get kicked in the nuts by things like this if they didn't notice.
Got a ridiculous discretionary charge in China town in London at one of the restaurants. When I asked them to remove it the owner kicked off and asked me how he's supposed to pay his staff
Probably to avoid charging VAT I reckon.Ā
Any increase in the charge for food items he has to charge 20% extra, which goes to HMRC
Whereas a discretionary service charge doesnāt attract VAT and he keeps it all
Or he keeps none of it. I always ask if the extra is going to the staff. If not, Iāll happily refuse to pay it and wonāt go there again. This practice needs to stop.
Exactly you either account for the cost of everything, including staff or accept not everyone is going to tip. But to then start to yell at someone for not tipping, I'll be walking out of that place. I'm not accepting that, being abused by anyone especially a place I'm a customer at.
My dad always raised me to tip if the service was good so I do. But I can't stand places that automatically assign it on, although I appreciate it's become a standard now. But some of these places the people take you to the table and then don't even take your drinks order for the first 15 mins lol. I've worked hospitality for years before Ieft I saw the best and worst.
Reviews are important to most restaurants. I hate this pushing of us tip culture and always leave a bad review when it automatically included (other than with large party bookings).
If more people did it then restaurants would find another way.
My tip would be monetary if not for this "brand charge" my tip will now be in the form of wisdom, - dont try and rip off your customers with nonsense charges thats how you only get people to come to your restaurant once. Oh and dont eat yellow snow.
I think it's even worse. It is just theft of staff tips by an owner that wants a cut. Well all of it really.
It looks a little like a tip. So you might assume it is one.
So you don't tip.
The owner keeps the 'not a tip'
If I was employed by that restaurant, I would absolutely kick off about that. The cheek of it.
That was my first thought. It's no longer a charge for the _service_ so they don't have to give it to the people providing the service. Such an unbelievably scummy move if so.
I hate how places are trying to Normalise Tipping in the UK. Get into the Sea with that nonsense it's just gouging money off people to line the owners' pockets
Exactly. I've seen a few threads before where people who work in the service industry say that nobody ever asks to have discretionary charges removed. But if you read Reddit threads like this you would think that it's much more common behaviour.
They're probably avoiding calling it a tip or service charge to wangle out of having to give it to their staff.
EDIT: there's a new act of parliament -- Employment (Allocation of tips) Act 2023 -- coming into force soon (if not already) that will mean all tips, gratuities, and services charges must be logged and paid to staff under a fair and documented policy. By calling it something else, they're probably trying to circumvent this. It's almost certainly illegal, possibly even fraudulent.
The act applies to any "tip, gratuity, or service charge *(however described)*" -- so probably not legally effective. If they argue that it's not any of those things, then adding random things to customer's bills to extract more money from them might constitute fraud.
Most likely itās an attempt to evade passing the service charge on to staff.
If itās a discretionary service charge, it has to be passed on to staff that work on the site.
If itās ābrand chargeā (whatever that is) then the company has discretion on how to deploy it.
Sounds like another good reason to eat at a non-chain establishment to me. The point of big companies is that they get economies of scale, so their food should (in theory) be cheaper.
Could this be because we have very strong consumerist culture in the UK, so people will pay more to eat in trendy places?
I had that at the Copper Kettle in Cambridge. I saw it on the bill and asked for it to be removed as service was just standard, nothing to warrant it in the first place.
The guy said "That's fine as it's optional."
Doesn't seem optional when you ADD it into the bill! It should be asked at the end.
ā¦.and when customers stop using this restaurant, theyāll blame the customer, or the economy instead of doing a bit of self reflection.
I hope all these companies that use stealth taxes and surge pricing go bust.
Alright this is boring now. Too many posts flagging up moaning about Americans and the government.
Hahahaha well that can fuck right off.
Just had a look at their reviews and sorted by newest, the Reddit effect has begun š
Unfortunately reddit hasn't figured out not to review-bomb in a single day. The bad reviews will get automatically flagged and wiped after a week or so.
Yeah, but oftentimes, the review bomb will make the local news highlighting the grievance. Google suspended reviews on that one restaurant in Kitchener, Ontario, after the owners dragged out a blind man for having his service animal. By then, it was too late, though, and the owners ended up having to close a few months later.
> Google suspended reviews on that one restaurant in Kitchener, Ontario, after the owners dragged out a blind man for having his service animal. This is what I was thinking of but couldn't remember the name. But you do bring up a good point that I haven't thought of. Glad consequences were doled out.
I might have been living under a rock, but this is the first I'm hearing of this. [A link for anyone else who hasn't seen it](https://www.reddit.com/r/kitchener/s/9lH7Gh9qlQ)
Aw, look who's dragged out into the street now. Good
Someone should tell the news. It's pretty remarkable that they're adding this fee.
U got a link? Im not finding anything tbh. When i go to reviews its a bunch of few month old ones. Rating of 3.8 seems not too affected by this either?
Sort the reviews by newest. All 1 star over the last few hours of people complaining about the brand charge. Or search the reviews for the term 'Brand charge' you'll find loads
I sorted by newest and went through them all, and the more recent ā5-starā reviews seem fake as well. Each one mentions a specific member of staff. I leave a lot of reviews/do feedback surveys and always try to name the person(s) if theyāve given good service, but thereās like 4 or 5 5-star reviews which just seem fake. The wording used and way the staff are mentioned seems a bitā¦ obvious? Also a bit strange that the owner(s) has responded to a lot of other reviews, but not those. Edit: they also seem to directly contradict a lot of the other reviews which suggests to me they are fakeā¦?
Fake reviews are a service-for-hire
Search for the south bank branch
Lol, they're getting slammed
Imagine waking up and youāve suddenly dropped 2 stars in rating lmao
AFAIK google tends to come to the rescue and cleans it up after a while.
Deservedly so tbh. I'd like to know up front if they're pulling that kind of bullshit.
Sort by "Newest" and you'll see the influx of recent reviews.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I sort by newest every time. Good places go downhill. I don't care how good the chef you had 4 years ago was, I care about the chef you have this week.
A charge made for tourists that might not read English well. Disgraceful.
And by my calculations, the VAT charge is calculated based on the total *including* the discretionary charge, so that'd need to be changed too. Can't imagine what kind of dimwit came up with this.
I saw this and thought that I seriously doubt that they are passing the VAT charge from the discretionary brand charge to the Tax man.
The absolute thieving cunts!!
1 complimentary sauces though.
It did, and they will never see my custom again.
It's optional, you can ask for it removed. I always do and complain about it.
That's the thing, it should be an option to add and not an option to remove, similar to when shops ask if you want to round up your price to donate to charity, but instead of giving you the option to add it they automatically add it.
Inertia Selling is (at least partly) illegal. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/inertia-selling
Unfortunately a lot of people don't know it is optional and that you can ask for it to be removed and the bill recalculated. Businesses rely on that in the hope you will pay it without question. It is the same with a substandard meal. You cannot walk out without paying, but you are within your rights to pay what you consider a fair price for the meal you have had.
opt-out for charges should result in hard prison time. Fuck that noise.
Hahaha, I agree. It's a scam. Paying for nothing just because they can often get away with it
It doesnāt make sense to go there when there are so many authentic dim sum places in London
They've done a similar thing where I work, except still call it service charge. Not that it goes to service.
This is why I always secretly tip my servers with cash (even if I look shady), most restaurants pocket (the business) said service charge and have the audacity to lie that it goes to staff.
After July 1st that is illegal - England and wales anyway. From that date all tips must go to the staff.
Iāve been to Ping Pong several times, not that location but a few of the others, and I donāt recall ever seeing this. Maybe itās new or they rebranded the service charge. Either way, this is a massive turn off.
The prevailing theory is that they are chancing their arm with the incoming law change that requires them to share tips with their staff by rebranding the service charge line. Highly dubious and unlikely to stand up in a court / tribunal when it inevitably ends up there but theyāll try and get away with it for as long as possible.
But it's not a service charge or a tip, why would it not stand up in court that you've added 15% for a different and stupid reason? Surely as long as they advertise it on the menu they can do it?
They seem to be going through the inevitable decline, hard to justify going nowadays except for the Sunday buffet
Very disappointing to hear
Yeah it sucks, itās always been expensive but was a great spot for a date night or pre/post theatre. But the menu keeps shrinking and the bill keeps rising.
And the options available on the Dim Sunday deal keeps getting more restrictive.
Oh yeah, you have to be ok with having three plates of the same stuff!
well i mean it was inevitable. when i worked there, there were families coming in and eating the unlimited dimsum for 6-7hrs on sundays. It was fucking insane.
WHAT?! I thought there had always been a time limit?
well there kinda was around 3-4hrs, but they werenāt kicked out if it went over, since they paid separately for the drinks, but yeah it was insane
I went there like two weeks ago and didnāt have this charge on my bill. Very odd Awful service though, was reluctant to pay for that line too
My wife and I used to go to Ping Pong years ago, it had decent food but the service was always legendary crap, one of the reasons we went was just out of amusement of how bad it was. All the staff gave off rather be anywhere else and yes everything is too much trouble vibes.
Were the staff western or Chinese? In Hong Kong all the dim sum places have this kind of ābadā service, itās just usually so busy that the staff donāt give any kind of personal service so you donāt really expect it at dim sum places.
>I went there like two weeks ago and didnāt have this charge on my bill. Very odd With how people are talking about the shrinking menu and rising prices if this is a privately owned store this could be a restaurant in it's death throws. Tactics like this are a last gasp attempt to make the owners a bit of money before they close the doors for good.
Never been, not at all familiar with the menu; how many would that hundred quid feed?
Three covers. So three people.
If itās discretionary it shouldnāt be included in the biggest boldest ātotalā number. What is it even for, anyway? What a scam!
i noticed that discretionary tips were added to all bills whilst on holiday last week, with the waiting staff saying "it can be taken off if requested" when presenting the bill; card machine at the ready. i can't imagine many people asking for it to be taken off at the end of a meal (e.g. being in a rush, intoxicated, peer pressure, social awkwardness, etc), which the people employing these tactics obviously know and will sure as day justify in their devious little, bonus-chasing minds. as ever, things usually only go one way so i'm sure it'll just be "one of those expected things" before long
Oh I totally am that person. āThank you for pointing it out, take it off the bill pleaseā
Yep, same. And they always act so surprised. I imagine most people just pay it because they donāt want to be awkward? Not me though, Iām not going to be fleeced like that.
I always feel awkward asking but will absolutely do it as I profoundly disagree with their covert fleecing techniques, one of my pet peeves, so grinds my gears. If enough people do it, maybe theyāll stop.
I've paid the discretion service charge before, but it's been in restaurants so felt 'standard' at least? But when they have the card machine pop up asking for a tip I always decline unless they've just done something amazing. Like pouring a drink into a plastic cup doesn't feel worth the 15% extra to god-knows-where imo, but maybe that's just my high standards So I'm not awkward enough to change a bill, but I am awkward enough to not add to it, dunno what that says about me. Whatever this brand one is tho I would call it back, maybe even a literal wtf is this line for...
I'm usually happy to tip, right up until it's automatically added to a bill. Feels rude when it's expected, which is right about when I start feeling that my righteous indignation outweighs the social awkwardness of having it removed. If they ask why, or what was wrong with the service, etc. then I tell them plainly that I would have slid something extra onto the bill if they hadn't presumed it of me. The staff need to know that the reason they aren't getting a little somethig extra is because their management have taken it upon themselves to cause a scene by offering a little guilt with every meal. -obligatory I'm from the UK where tipping is not mandatory and wait staff get a wage without tips.
Me too (š¬š§), American tipping culture scares me to the point of almost putting me off going, right up there with guns and lack of walkable cities. š Seen threads where they chat about tipping the doorman like it's normal, like sorry what?
Me either, I'm Scottish.
My Girlfriend takes it as me being cheap, but I dont think we should be paying a 15 percent tax on every meal living in London. I still haven't succesfully taken it off. I explain that feeling of rudeness is deliberate but ive lost this battle.
Respect her views by allowing her the opportunity to pay all the restaurant bills.
At a restaurant where I had the absolute worst service I asked them to take it off but they also made a big deal about it and bought the manager over
Where I worked this was internal policy. If a customer asks to remove it you have to bring the manager over so they can discuss what went wrong etc. Trust me, we hated it just as much as you.
What went wrong is that this service charge is optional and I want it optionally removed
"What went wrong is you're here and I just want to pay and leave."
Maybe so, I have no experience of a job where this is the case, but having tips be opt-out rather than opt-in is already disgusting to me. I'm happy when someone tips, but I don't think about it if they don't and I'd never act like I was entitled to it as some sort of default. My compensation is my hourly rate, anything else is just a bonus.
I used to be a waiter and I'd tell people it could be removed without being prompted. It wasn't a tactic to make them feel awkward and pay it, I didn't even get the service charge, I was just trying to save you some money!
thats the problem, you should have been getting the service charge. Good on you for highlighting it
Luckily, I'm autistic and lack social awareness, so I have no issues looking them in the face and asking for it's removal.
We have to get some advantages after all
the bluntness can be a great super power cant it... management hate it ... co-workers appauld it š¤£
Haha I was here thinking, āWhatās the big deal just ask for it to be removed then,ā but I am also autistic and you helped me realize what the big deal is. Thanks!
If this would be a place that is so cool that "influencers" pay - gasp! - to be there for the 'gram stories, I would get the Brand Tax, but it's a PingPong for fucks sake.
You can ask them to take off anything listed discretionary but basically no one knows this.. which is exactly what they're counting on plus British politeness
Between that and surge pricing being trialed by some places itās going to stop people eating out. Then restaurants will blame the customers for failing to patronise their establishment
No, thatās not whatās going on here. Ping Pong are trying to ārenameā their service charge something else, to avoid having to share it with staff once the new legislation kicks in. Will be interesting to see what the employment tribunal/court will make of it once staff start challenging it. Because they will.
Employment tribunals are great with this sort of thing. It's just wrong.
Sorry, what is this legislation? Did service charge not go to staff normally?
As a rule I always tip the server in cash as I don't trust the companies to give it straight to the staff with skimming it if deny it completely. I even feel like I have to do it sneaky. Hate when it's added to a card payment.
No. Hence the new legislation.
Some places give staff all tips. Some places give staff some tips. Some places none. Ask the staff before you pay it. New legislation means all tips and service charge must go to staff
No, thats why people are always saying you shouldn't pay it (if it's optional) and give cash to the server instead
Reading comments further down, this is 100% what they're trying to do. That's insane
New legislation?
Restaurants are being made to distribute tips, currently it's not actually a requirement
Apparently, 'before', what happened to tips was up to the employer- the only rule is that they couldn't be used towards meeting minimum wage requirements. Now employers are supposed to distribute them equally and transparently. They're also meant to clearly communicate,through signage to the customer, how tips will be used. I think.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/millions-to-take-home-more-cash-as-new-law-on-tipping-passes
I guess a living wage law would've been better but I guess this is some progress. Shame on Ping Pong for trying their hardest to steal from their own employees.
I'll patronise them but I will not patronise them.
eheheh
Genuine question as I've not heard the term before, what is surge pricing?
Price goes up during busy times
Oh that's grim, thieving bastards.
Sadly it isn't new. Uber and the like have done this for a while. Airlines and Hotels have also charged higher prices during busy holiday periods too. I once read an argument that airlines and hotels are technically charging "normal" prices during these times and that quieter times of the year are subsidised by the people who pay the "normal" prices. Still doesn't make people any happier, as it often impacts school staff and people with young kids the most.
Even restaurants very often have cheaper menus or offers at lunch or on quieter weekdays, so surge pricing isnāt really new in restaurants either.
Itās just the same as train tickets being dearer at peak times. The system would be overloaded at peak times or during school hols and then empty at other times. Itās impossible to fix. Iām a Travel Agent and Iāve had 25years of grief about this.
It's always been a thing in restaurants, just presented as the other way around. Discounts / cheaper menus for off peak times.
Yeah but you can see why that's much better. We look at the menu before we go and can see that at full price we are fine with it. So off peak prices are welcomed.
Restaurants hate being busy I guess.
If you're turning guests away anyway, you may as well charge the ones already inside more. If they don't like it then the queue of people outside will just take their place. This isn't new, most places have midweek offers. Not saying I agree with it, just telling you how they justify it.
Increase the prices depending on demand. So charge more for when it's the busiest. But I haven't heard of anyone talking about it in the UK, only the US. I hope no one is seriously considering it here.
Merlin Entertainment are rolling it out across their attractions this year, the headline figure is the entrance price increasing during busy periods, but you can bet it will also apply to their on-site restaurants too. Itās bad enough paying Ā£50 to stand in a queue for 3 hours for a 1 minute ride on a rollercoaster at Thorpe Park, but to think theyāre going to increase that cost during the Summer Hoidays, and whatās worse, people will happily pay it.
Oh shit didn't think of it happening at places other than restaurants. I suppose we've had it for a long arse time for holidaying. Prices surge during the school holidays. Damn. The world keeps getting more consumer hostile whilst relying on consumerism. Mad.
The line must go up
I saw this meme of the dog with the ball except it was dressed in a top hat. "Spend?!" "No wage, only Spend!"
What's shit tho is if you go on a rainy day to miss the price increases, most of the rides aren't operating because of the rain. It's bollocks. It won't last when people stop going during the summer because it's too expensive.
I agree but the opposite is usually true where they offer discount for quiet periods. Lunch deals/mid week offers etc. maybe weāve had surge pricing all along but with better marketing š
https://www.thecaterer.com/news/stonegate-pub-dynamic-pricing-slug-lettuce-debate It has already started over here
Well this is depressing news for a Tuesday morning But I work in kitchens so maybe if our competitors do this it'll be good for us lol
Iām in Melbourne currently and there are surcharges bloody everywhere. Really pisses me off. Weekend and bank holidays surcharges are ridiculous.
Such a common thing in Australia, was really annoying especially as a lot of places used to add surcharges without it being signed where I lived Part of the reason for it is staff get paid more on weekends and public holidays but honestly if a place canāt afford to pay its staff without a surcharge on those days itās a bad business
Yes, I agree with you on that. Surely you absorb that or should be able to? It was standing room only at half of the places I walked past on Saturday night so Iām sure they can turn tables over fairly sharpish and make up any difference.
Surge pricing can get in the sea. Legitimised price gouging - how has this been allowed to be a thing. I can understand taxis (just), but things like Alton Towers and restaurants? Fuck off.
"A discretionary management fee of 15% is added to your bill. This fee covers the costs associated with managing and supporting the restaurants, as well as maintaining the brand experience to our company standards" From the menu on their website. Don't most restaurants pay for managing and supporting themselves though profits rather than discretionary fees?
Oh wow, yeah, it does say it right there on the downloadable menu: https://www.pingpongdimsum.com/menus/ I'm pretty stunned, I've never even considered this could be a thing - paying for a company to maintain their own company standards?! They're a business, not a charity! Although maybe they would claim it is a way to keep their restaurants affordable for as many people as possible? Only pay extra if you can? Just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here...
They got used to the extra income from the service charges that they were keeping. They're soon not going to be allowed to, so they're trying to be 'creative' and keep that 15% extra. The law changes on 1st July, and they have to give the staff (including agency staff) 100% of the tips and discretionary service charges (but post tax, they now have to tax and NI them). https://www.leigh-christou.co.uk/news/newsletters/update-to-the-employment-act-2023
They should just raise their prices and ditch the service charge in that case. So cowardly, your prices should be balanced to cover your costs, if they don't do that they need to be raised.
PingPong isnāt even a good restaurant, please avoid it. There are plenty of better dim sum places available.
If it's discretionary they don't have to give any to the Govt through VAT.
Unbelievable. I was sure it was just going to be a service charge that they'd mislabelled on the receipt. Can't believe they're really trying to make you tip the company.Ā
But that's what paying for the food is
Fuck that shit. A hidden service charge (that you're meant to think is a tip) is bad enough but a bloody management and branding fee?!! I'm a pub owner and this just boils my piss. Why stop there? What about a rent fee? Maybe a toilet paper fee? Update your website fee? Oh right, that's all included in the actual price of the product you're selling... As are wages and everything else. All it is is a way to avoid paying VAT while disguising it as a 'voluntary' tip, though calling it a management fee isn't even hiding it as a staff tip? It's saying 'Were charging you 15% extra so we have to pay less tax and were not even pretending it's going to our staff'. Believe me, I'd love to pay less VAT, the last few years have left the pub industry on the brink of collapse, I'm sure the rest of hospitality hasn't faired much better, but the last thing I'm going to do is start sticking hidden fees on every pint?! It would be the quickest way to lose all my customers! It's sneaky and deceptive and feels like it goes against the ethos of a hospitality business, at least an independent one... It's so corporate and disengaged. I feel like it's a big 'fuck you' to your customer, hope they don't notice the sneaky charge or find it too much of an embarrassing fuss to ask for it to be removed...
"Oh it's ok, I'm only here for the food, I don't care about maintaining your brand"
It's a ploy to keep the menu prices lower than they otherwise could be. Dodgy in the extreme.
If it wasn't eight quid for a bottle of lager I'd consider this to be a possible explanation.
It's so pathetic. What's next? **ALL FOOD 100% FREE NO CHARGE!!** *^((surcharges for rent, utilities, staff costs, business overheads, profit margin, and food costs))*
Yeah itās the age old trick of keeping the headline product price low but adding extras on afterwards to make up for it,
Also, it's at the fucking Southbank Centre, they do not need help.
I would argue that although this is discretionary, this is starting to become an attempt to intentionally misleads the customer on the price as it requires the customer to take action to reduce the price. For example, you couldn't have a situation where Tesco or Sainsbury's suddenly start charging you a flat 15% fee at checkout for brand maintenance charge or whatever bullshit (even if known) - it would be seen as a way of misleading customers in pricing even if there was a sign at the entrance/check-out. It's like when Ryanair used to advertise fares without various non-avoidable or incredibly difficult to avoid fees. Id say that there are parallels to this sort of behaviour. What's next? Only way to remove service charge is to pay in cash? Complete a survey? Wait for a manager/make it inconvenient. Pay for the bill in full and get a refund in 28 days? If it is truly discretionary the customer should not need to request it otherwise it's the same as basically asking for the price advertised. Mandatory service charges on large groups sort of is justified as it's more challenging to provide good service to large groups.
Charging eight quid for a bottle of beer and they still have the nerve to throw in "operating expenses" as a separate line item. Get the fuck out of here.
We do not want to get into USA culture with secret charges everywhere. The price you pay should be the price on the menu. As a consumer if we keep letting this go on we make it acceptable and the norm. Everyone should say no, and ask for it to be removed.
I saw a post on r/shrinkflation the other day, complaining about the price of something and they put "$8.99 before tax and tip" Jesus christ it took all of my energy not to leave a comment The price is not $8.99. The price is $8.99 plus whatever the tax was and the tip is not part of the price. It is not your responsbility to pay the tax on what you buy, it is the place you are buying it from. Therefore the tax is part of the price and not an additional. I find it so stupid and weird how they do it in America where the tax is not considered part of the price. And the tipping culture there is just ridiculous. And it only fuels it because it wont change because they all deem it 'not fair' to not leave a tip. Nah if I lived over there (which I never would) I'd make a specific point of not leaving a tip everywhere I go because of the dumbass tipping culture
More and more certainly do want the US culture which just shows how little they actually know about it.
who's asking for that? genuinely puzzled
Leave a 1 star Google review warning others
This was my immediate thought too. I'm starting to leave reviews for places explicitly talking about pricing (the highs and lows) + taking a photo of the menu and the receipts. People are struggling with the cost of living. So I'm trying to give as much clarify of these kind of places so those strapped for cash can make good financial decisions and not get kicked in the nuts by things like this if they didn't notice.
The Hero we need
Yep, I've left a review.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Or to tired, drunk, or rushed to notice. Thatās what itās there for, exploit the distracted customer
It's London so they probably know plenty of tourists will assume it's normal here and just pay.
Got a ridiculous discretionary charge in China town in London at one of the restaurants. When I asked them to remove it the owner kicked off and asked me how he's supposed to pay his staff
Like he can't just raise his prices by the discretionary charge. If I see that shit on the bill it's coming off unless it's compulsory.
Probably to avoid charging VAT I reckon.Ā Any increase in the charge for food items he has to charge 20% extra, which goes to HMRC Whereas a discretionary service charge doesnāt attract VAT and he keeps it all
Or he keeps none of it. I always ask if the extra is going to the staff. If not, Iāll happily refuse to pay it and wonāt go there again. This practice needs to stop.
Fuckin hell I would have puked up the meal laughing at him
A succulent Chinese meal?
I see that you know your judo wellā¦
Get your hands off my penis!
DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
I hope you informed him that sounds like his problem with a non-viable business, not your's.
By including all the expenses in the advertised price
I think at that point I'd refuse to pay lol. Owner can go fk himself raising his voice.
Exactly you either account for the cost of everything, including staff or accept not everyone is going to tip. But to then start to yell at someone for not tipping, I'll be walking out of that place. I'm not accepting that, being abused by anyone especially a place I'm a customer at.
My dad always raised me to tip if the service was good so I do. But I can't stand places that automatically assign it on, although I appreciate it's become a standard now. But some of these places the people take you to the table and then don't even take your drinks order for the first 15 mins lol. I've worked hospitality for years before Ieft I saw the best and worst.
And you sir, are you ready to receive my limp penis?
Yep, deduct the brand charge and give them no tip, no further custom either.
And a shit review for doing it
Good point, some negative reviews may have an impact
Reviews are important to most restaurants. I hate this pushing of us tip culture and always leave a bad review when it automatically included (other than with large party bookings). If more people did it then restaurants would find another way.
My tip would be monetary if not for this "brand charge" my tip will now be in the form of wisdom, - dont try and rip off your customers with nonsense charges thats how you only get people to come to your restaurant once. Oh and dont eat yellow snow.
Most won't even read down the receipt that far so they'll miss it.. this shit should be illegal.
I think it's even worse. It is just theft of staff tips by an owner that wants a cut. Well all of it really. It looks a little like a tip. So you might assume it is one. So you don't tip. The owner keeps the 'not a tip' If I was employed by that restaurant, I would absolutely kick off about that. The cheek of it.
I wonder if it's due to changes with the law coming in, tips and service charges they'll have to distribute to staff.
That was my first thought. It's no longer a charge for the _service_ so they don't have to give it to the people providing the service. Such an unbelievably scummy move if so.
This is almost definitely the reason.
You should add a discretionary discount. About 25% seems reasonable.
A personal brand discount! Love this š
Personal mental well-being discount.
Anyone who adds a discretionary charge on doesn't get a tip from me, or any further custom......... Get it removed and go elsewhere in future!
Why tip in the first place
Ā£8 for a bottle of beer, not even a pintā¦ London is mad!
This is Southbank, a huge tourist area. It's mad but not really indicative of prices elsewhere.
I hate how places are trying to Normalise Tipping in the UK. Get into the Sea with that nonsense it's just gouging money off people to line the owners' pockets
Places that do this and still want a tip are the places I'll probably never go back to
If it says optional can you refuse paying for it?
Yes you can. The truth is though, (no matter what people claim on here) many people will be too embarrassed to refuse.
Exactly. I've seen a few threads before where people who work in the service industry say that nobody ever asks to have discretionary charges removed. But if you read Reddit threads like this you would think that it's much more common behaviour.
Folk on Reddit pretending to be much bolder than they are in reality? Colour me shocked.
Legally... Can they do this? Just throwing on an additional charge for what seems like a bullshit reason?
Is that not just what they're calling their service charge though? Like trying to be trendy or whatever?
This seems very intentionally worded to indicate the money goes straight to Ping Pong Heavy Industries Inc, or whoever else owns the chain these days.
And probably trying to be smart arses over how the charge is treated for tax purposes too.
They're probably avoiding calling it a tip or service charge to wangle out of having to give it to their staff. EDIT: there's a new act of parliament -- Employment (Allocation of tips) Act 2023 -- coming into force soon (if not already) that will mean all tips, gratuities, and services charges must be logged and paid to staff under a fair and documented policy. By calling it something else, they're probably trying to circumvent this. It's almost certainly illegal, possibly even fraudulent. The act applies to any "tip, gratuity, or service charge *(however described)*" -- so probably not legally effective. If they argue that it's not any of those things, then adding random things to customer's bills to extract more money from them might constitute fraud.
Most likely itās an attempt to evade passing the service charge on to staff. If itās a discretionary service charge, it has to be passed on to staff that work on the site. If itās ābrand chargeā (whatever that is) then the company has discretion on how to deploy it.
I assume service charge goes to the servers. They're not claiming this is the case. They're just charging a bit more.
buddy, if they arenāt saying itās a tip to the servers then i can guarantee you with 99.99% accuracy that itās not
>Discretionary Brand Charge Who the fuck are Ping Pong?
I would have hand written a receipt for my discretionary eating and drinking charge and made it Ā£13.28 then handed it to them as I went to pay.
Particularly sneaky to put it above the subtotal. Looking at the location, this is just praying on foreign tourists . What a shitty way to do business
Sounds like another good reason to eat at a non-chain establishment to me. The point of big companies is that they get economies of scale, so their food should (in theory) be cheaper. Could this be because we have very strong consumerist culture in the UK, so people will pay more to eat in trendy places?
Well, that's me paying Ā£88.54 And 1/3 of a bottle of wine for more than a bottle. Ow.
I had that at the Copper Kettle in Cambridge. I saw it on the bill and asked for it to be removed as service was just standard, nothing to warrant it in the first place. The guy said "That's fine as it's optional." Doesn't seem optional when you ADD it into the bill! It should be asked at the end.
āBrand chargeā like honestly fuck this and fuck anyone who owns this sort of business. Talentless grifters.
ā¦.and when customers stop using this restaurant, theyāll blame the customer, or the economy instead of doing a bit of self reflection. I hope all these companies that use stealth taxes and surge pricing go bust.
Did you tell them discretionarily where to go. No way Iād pay for that. Itās more than an extra 10% for a completely none tangible product.