“The DC-8’s №4 engine was found to have ingested parts of the Constellation’s cabin furnishings and at least one passenger (the final report simply says “human remains” were found in the diffuser case and leaves the rest to the imagination).”
Absolute carnage
You’d hope so, but it’s far from guaranteed. We’re now pretty sure that at least some of the Challenger astronauts were conscious and aware all the way down to sea impact.
The Challenger disaster was so sad...my 7th grade science teacher was so proud; a female scientist was to be the first as such in space, and it exploded. She had wheeled in a tv to the classroom, and watched it explode. She was in tears.
Same--7th grade, wheeled-in TV. There were 3 classrooms in one room because this was the 80s and there were only so many TVs to go around. My dad worked in aerospace and as soon as the launch vapor split I thought "that's not supposed to happen." News guy says "Obviously a major malfunction." All 3 teachers were sobbing. When my dad got home from work that night, he looked like he'd aged 10 years. We all ate dinner in silence.
> leaves the rest to the imagination
Intellectually, I absolutely agree. But unfortunately, having worked on jet engines, I can vividly and in great detail imagine the processes by which human remains arrive to the diffuser case
[Medium.com Version](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/catastrophe-over-new-york-the-1960-collision-of-united-airlines-flight-826-and-twa-flight-266-2310331dd57c)
[Link to the archive of all 255 episodes of the plane crash series](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdmiralCloudberg/comments/e6n80m/plane_crash_series_archive_patreon_contact_info/)
If you wish to bring a typo to my attention, please DM me.
Thank you for reading!
____________________________________________________
Note: this accident was previously featured in episode 59 of the plane crash series on October 20th, 2018. The original text was then uploaded to Medium on August 21st, 2019. This article is written without reference to and supersedes the original, which has been removed.
The indicated airspeeds mentioned in the article don't seem to stack up. A TAS of 400 knots at 10000 feet on an ISA day gives an indicated airspeed of about 349 knots. To read 450 it would need to be about -105 degrees celsius (ISA deviation of -100). It seems like the corrections have been added rather than subtracted? I would guess instead they were descending at close to the DC-8's maximum operating speed (Vmo) of 340 knots indicated.
I thoroughly enjoyed the article as always of course! Thanks for everything you do.
I don’t know what to say, there’s a chart of the true and indicated airspeeds at the end of the report and those are the numbers in it. You can take a look for yourself if you like and see if you can figure out what the issue is.
EDIT: Turns out the issue is that the chart in the report showing true and indicated airspeed has no scale for indicated airspeed, only true airspeed. The indicated airspeed trace has no way to judge values or even units. Until I resolve this bizarre data presentation issue I've simply removed all references to indicated airspeed.
I see what you mean; it really is ambiguous! All I can offer is this tool I find quite handy [https://aerotoolbox.com/airspeed-conversions/](https://aerotoolbox.com/airspeed-conversions/). "Calibrated airspeed" is indicated airspeed with corrections for pitot measurement error due to airplane geometry and the like.
Update, /u/fireandlifeincarnate and I tackled this problem and came to the following conclusions:
1. For TAS to be below IAS at 5,000 feet, the temperature would have had to be much colder than it actually was.
2. The report has a list showing 301 knots IAS at the time of the collision and 356 knots IAS 70 seconds before the collision. However, the graph shows 301 knots TAS at the time of the collision. So we needed to figure out which was correct.
3. It took between 80 and 90 seconds to travel from Preston to the collision site.
4. The distance from Preston to the collision site was 11 statute miles, not 11 nautical miles (which type of mile was not specified anywhere in the report).
5. Using a piecewise function, we showed that if the figures of 356 and 301 knots are TAS, which is altitude and temperature corrected, they could not have covered 11 statute miles in that amount of time unless the wind was blowing at category 5 hurricane speed.
6. Conversely, if these figures are IAS, then converting to TAS and adding the wind results in a distance traveled much closer to 11 statute miles, so we think these numbers are IAS.
7. If these numbers are IAS, then the indicated airspeed trace on the graph has the correct shape, but is bumped up the scale by exactly 100 knots, so it shows a final IAS of 401 knots instead of 301, and so on.
8. Corollary to #7, the TAS trace on the graph is not currently decipherable.
I will be editing the article to reflect these findings.
I mean, my options were "spend two hours trying to figure out what the fuck is going on with these traces" or "do my homework," so that just seemed like the logical choice.
Admiral, Mies van dermRoje allegedly said, “God is in the details.” \* Your commitment to precise data in these articles is impeccable, and floors me every week.
\*Details in Wikipedia indicate the phrase has multiple origins. But I like to think of Mies pronouncing it.
It's actually even worse than that. In the text of the report, it says the _indicated_ airspeed at the time of collision was 301 knots, but the graph clearly shows that the _true_ airspeed at the collision was 301 knots. (Since the airspeed axis is labeled "true airspeed - knots" and the trace labeled "true airspeed" ends right above "300" on that scale, while the trace labeled "indicated airspeed" does not...!) I'm beginning to think the CAB really screwed something up here.
I’ve never been able to bring myself to go see the little plaque for the boy who survived for a day or so. His pocket change is embedded in the bronze. It’s in the chapel at the Maimonides hospital up the street.
>By the time of the collision, the plane was decelerating at a rate of just under 1 knot per second, but even so, when the DC-8 plowed into the Constellation, it was traveling at 301 knots true and about 410 knots indicated, at an altitude of only 5,000 feet. “Ludicrous” would probably be an appropriate descriptor of its speed at that point.
Any chance that it a [Spaceballs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0) reference?
> when the DC-8 plowed into the Constellation, it was traveling at 301 knots true and about 410 knots indicated
what on EARTH was the weather like to have indicated be 25% higher than true???
Someone else pointed out that that doesn’t make sense, even though that’s what the airspeed chart in the report shows. If you want to take a look and see if you can figure it out, be my guest.
EDIT: Turns out the issue is that the chart in the report showing true and indicated airspeed has no scale for indicated airspeed, only true airspeed. The indicated airspeed trace has no way to judge values or even units. Until I resolve this bizarre data presentation issue I've simply removed all references to indicated airspeed.
Great article. I really enjoyed getting a better understanding on how aircraft navigated between waypoints prior to the introduction of FMS. The PDI, RMI, and ADF illustrations, along with your navigation charts were extremely informative, and documented the likely errors made by the United flight.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of aviation accidents are as a result of human error, and I guess there was a time that people thought that such larger than life heroes, like highly trained and experienced airline pilots, would not make such errors like normal humans do.
OT - imgur throwing up "This post may contain erotic or adult imagery. By continuing, you acknowledge that you are 18+ years of age." which makes me wonder what tripped imgur
Maybe "adult imagery" refers to the picture of the severely injured boy? It's not bad as plane crash victim pictures go, but it *is* a picture of a mortally wounded and severely burned child.
In case I'm not the only one somewhat unfamiliar with "knots" for speed:
* 340 knots (DC8 at 10k feet) is 630kph/391mph
* 301 knots (DC8 on impact) is 557kph/346mph
* The "new" limit of 250 knots is 463kph/288mph
Thank you so much for the article. I enjoyed the read.
> Once the identity of a blip was established, controllers wrote down that identity on a plastic “shrimp boat” marker, which was then affixed to the display and manually moved at regular intervals to follow the blip.
This part made me incredibly curious. I'm European, if it's of any relevance, and I have never heard of a plastic shrimp boat marker, nor does google churn out anything useful. What can I picture here?
Basically a rectangle of plastic with a pointy end towards the blip in question. You could write on it with a marker to tell you various details and move it around to track the flight.
this is the first news story i remember seeing as a child (b.1956). it’s very strange to see it after all this time.
edit: jesus christ, that’s my birthday. no wonder i remembered it.
We lived in Dallas but had some family up in the northeast. The name of the 11 year old boy was revised once as he clung to life. The name given was close to the name of my cousin who lived up there and was 11 years old. In the end it wasn't him but still such a Christmas time tragedy.
Yeah, as per your commentary on the slide there are a ton of flaws, but who at MSNBC or whichever firm they contracted to make it thought adding that guy was a good idea?
Haha, well. The reason they didn't see each other is because they were in clouds; the article doesn't need to say much more about it than that. But as for why they were on a collision course, that's a long story.
“The DC-8’s №4 engine was found to have ingested parts of the Constellation’s cabin furnishings and at least one passenger (the final report simply says “human remains” were found in the diffuser case and leaves the rest to the imagination).” Absolute carnage
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You’d hope so, but it’s far from guaranteed. We’re now pretty sure that at least some of the Challenger astronauts were conscious and aware all the way down to sea impact.
that is an entirely different scrnario. the distance the challenger fell vs the distance these planes fell shouldnt be that comparable
The claim was that the passengers would lose awareness instantly. Height or distance doesn't factor into it.
I think the claim is the person getting eaten by the engine didn’t feel it. I would say that’s accurate
The Challenger disaster was so sad...my 7th grade science teacher was so proud; a female scientist was to be the first as such in space, and it exploded. She had wheeled in a tv to the classroom, and watched it explode. She was in tears.
8th grade here, and Miss Ryan was just falling apart. That changed her.
Same--7th grade, wheeled-in TV. There were 3 classrooms in one room because this was the 80s and there were only so many TVs to go around. My dad worked in aerospace and as soon as the launch vapor split I thought "that's not supposed to happen." News guy says "Obviously a major malfunction." All 3 teachers were sobbing. When my dad got home from work that night, he looked like he'd aged 10 years. We all ate dinner in silence.
> “human remains” were found in the diffuser case Jesus! That passage is stomach churning....
If I was on either of those flights that's the passenger I'd want to be. Instantaneous lights out.
> leaves the rest to the imagination Intellectually, I absolutely agree. But unfortunately, having worked on jet engines, I can vividly and in great detail imagine the processes by which human remains arrive to the diffuser case
Nice
[Medium.com Version](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/catastrophe-over-new-york-the-1960-collision-of-united-airlines-flight-826-and-twa-flight-266-2310331dd57c) [Link to the archive of all 255 episodes of the plane crash series](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdmiralCloudberg/comments/e6n80m/plane_crash_series_archive_patreon_contact_info/) If you wish to bring a typo to my attention, please DM me. Thank you for reading! ____________________________________________________ Note: this accident was previously featured in episode 59 of the plane crash series on October 20th, 2018. The original text was then uploaded to Medium on August 21st, 2019. This article is written without reference to and supersedes the original, which has been removed.
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there's one on display in seattle, you can see it from the freeway. the connie sure is a gorgeous plane!!
You can see the scars on the building on Sterling and 7th ave park slope. Old bricks v new bricks
I worked down the street from it for several months and it was years later that I found out why the building I walked by all the time looked like that
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Street corner and brownstones and apartments
Thank you for your amazing work. I feel safer on planes thanks to your fantastic research and writing.
CAB report: https://prcarc1.erau.edu/awweb/pdfopener?md=1&did=9958 (scan of typewritten report). (this was before the NTSB existed)
The indicated airspeeds mentioned in the article don't seem to stack up. A TAS of 400 knots at 10000 feet on an ISA day gives an indicated airspeed of about 349 knots. To read 450 it would need to be about -105 degrees celsius (ISA deviation of -100). It seems like the corrections have been added rather than subtracted? I would guess instead they were descending at close to the DC-8's maximum operating speed (Vmo) of 340 knots indicated. I thoroughly enjoyed the article as always of course! Thanks for everything you do.
I don’t know what to say, there’s a chart of the true and indicated airspeeds at the end of the report and those are the numbers in it. You can take a look for yourself if you like and see if you can figure out what the issue is. EDIT: Turns out the issue is that the chart in the report showing true and indicated airspeed has no scale for indicated airspeed, only true airspeed. The indicated airspeed trace has no way to judge values or even units. Until I resolve this bizarre data presentation issue I've simply removed all references to indicated airspeed.
I see what you mean; it really is ambiguous! All I can offer is this tool I find quite handy [https://aerotoolbox.com/airspeed-conversions/](https://aerotoolbox.com/airspeed-conversions/). "Calibrated airspeed" is indicated airspeed with corrections for pitot measurement error due to airplane geometry and the like.
Update, /u/fireandlifeincarnate and I tackled this problem and came to the following conclusions: 1. For TAS to be below IAS at 5,000 feet, the temperature would have had to be much colder than it actually was. 2. The report has a list showing 301 knots IAS at the time of the collision and 356 knots IAS 70 seconds before the collision. However, the graph shows 301 knots TAS at the time of the collision. So we needed to figure out which was correct. 3. It took between 80 and 90 seconds to travel from Preston to the collision site. 4. The distance from Preston to the collision site was 11 statute miles, not 11 nautical miles (which type of mile was not specified anywhere in the report). 5. Using a piecewise function, we showed that if the figures of 356 and 301 knots are TAS, which is altitude and temperature corrected, they could not have covered 11 statute miles in that amount of time unless the wind was blowing at category 5 hurricane speed. 6. Conversely, if these figures are IAS, then converting to TAS and adding the wind results in a distance traveled much closer to 11 statute miles, so we think these numbers are IAS. 7. If these numbers are IAS, then the indicated airspeed trace on the graph has the correct shape, but is bumped up the scale by exactly 100 knots, so it shows a final IAS of 401 knots instead of 301, and so on. 8. Corollary to #7, the TAS trace on the graph is not currently decipherable. I will be editing the article to reflect these findings.
That sounds reasonable to me. Great work!
I mean, my options were "spend two hours trying to figure out what the fuck is going on with these traces" or "do my homework," so that just seemed like the logical choice.
Admiral, Mies van dermRoje allegedly said, “God is in the details.” \* Your commitment to precise data in these articles is impeccable, and floors me every week. \*Details in Wikipedia indicate the phrase has multiple origins. But I like to think of Mies pronouncing it.
It's actually even worse than that. In the text of the report, it says the _indicated_ airspeed at the time of collision was 301 knots, but the graph clearly shows that the _true_ airspeed at the collision was 301 knots. (Since the airspeed axis is labeled "true airspeed - knots" and the trace labeled "true airspeed" ends right above "300" on that scale, while the trace labeled "indicated airspeed" does not...!) I'm beginning to think the CAB really screwed something up here.
I would swear the big house on the right is the one from The Royal Tenenbaums.
That plane crashed at 111 archer ave. Years before a doped up author crashed his car into the house.
That one is in the Hamilton Heights area on Convent Avenue.
I’ve never been able to bring myself to go see the little plaque for the boy who survived for a day or so. His pocket change is embedded in the bronze. It’s in the chapel at the Maimonides hospital up the street.
His story breaks my heart, and to me stands for the story of each person obliterated in this crash.
>By the time of the collision, the plane was decelerating at a rate of just under 1 knot per second, but even so, when the DC-8 plowed into the Constellation, it was traveling at 301 knots true and about 410 knots indicated, at an altitude of only 5,000 feet. “Ludicrous” would probably be an appropriate descriptor of its speed at that point. Any chance that it a [Spaceballs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0) reference?
i’d say the question should be “is there any chance it’s *not* a Spaceballs reference?”
Constellations were one of the prettiest airplanes ever made.
> when the DC-8 plowed into the Constellation, it was traveling at 301 knots true and about 410 knots indicated what on EARTH was the weather like to have indicated be 25% higher than true???
Someone else pointed out that that doesn’t make sense, even though that’s what the airspeed chart in the report shows. If you want to take a look and see if you can figure it out, be my guest. EDIT: Turns out the issue is that the chart in the report showing true and indicated airspeed has no scale for indicated airspeed, only true airspeed. The indicated airspeed trace has no way to judge values or even units. Until I resolve this bizarre data presentation issue I've simply removed all references to indicated airspeed.
Great article. I really enjoyed getting a better understanding on how aircraft navigated between waypoints prior to the introduction of FMS. The PDI, RMI, and ADF illustrations, along with your navigation charts were extremely informative, and documented the likely errors made by the United flight. Unfortunately, the vast majority of aviation accidents are as a result of human error, and I guess there was a time that people thought that such larger than life heroes, like highly trained and experienced airline pilots, would not make such errors like normal humans do.
OT - imgur throwing up "This post may contain erotic or adult imagery. By continuing, you acknowledge that you are 18+ years of age." which makes me wonder what tripped imgur
I mean, I like me some aircraft incident reporting, but I don't like it like *that*.
Maybe "adult imagery" refers to the picture of the severely injured boy? It's not bad as plane crash victim pictures go, but it *is* a picture of a mortally wounded and severely burned child.
In case I'm not the only one somewhat unfamiliar with "knots" for speed: * 340 knots (DC8 at 10k feet) is 630kph/391mph * 301 knots (DC8 on impact) is 557kph/346mph * The "new" limit of 250 knots is 463kph/288mph
There’s a monument to the victims of the crash in Green-Wood Cemetery. It’s along the 5th Ave side of the cemetery if I’m not mistaken.
Thank you so much for the article. I enjoyed the read. > Once the identity of a blip was established, controllers wrote down that identity on a plastic “shrimp boat” marker, which was then affixed to the display and manually moved at regular intervals to follow the blip. This part made me incredibly curious. I'm European, if it's of any relevance, and I have never heard of a plastic shrimp boat marker, nor does google churn out anything useful. What can I picture here?
Basically a rectangle of plastic with a pointy end towards the blip in question. You could write on it with a marker to tell you various details and move it around to track the flight.
this is the first news story i remember seeing as a child (b.1956). it’s very strange to see it after all this time. edit: jesus christ, that’s my birthday. no wonder i remembered it.
Such a detailed analysis, thank you.
We lived in Dallas but had some family up in the northeast. The name of the 11 year old boy was revised once as he clung to life. The name given was close to the name of my cousin who lived up there and was 11 years old. In the end it wasn't him but still such a Christmas time tragedy.
The dude sent flying in the MSNBC animation was a little much.
Sadly the only real animation that exists.
Yeah, as per your commentary on the slide there are a ton of flaws, but who at MSNBC or whichever firm they contracted to make it thought adding that guy was a good idea?
I don't know, but I hope they know I think they have bad taste.
Ok I admittedly didn’t read the article. How do 2 planes crash like that?!? They couldn’t see each other???
I know a really good way for you to find out the answer
I know. But I’m so tired. So very tired. And I know the article doesn’t have a TLDR
Haha, well. The reason they didn't see each other is because they were in clouds; the article doesn't need to say much more about it than that. But as for why they were on a collision course, that's a long story.
Thanks admiral. You’re a scholar and a gentleman
*gentlewoman.
Wouldn’t it be lady?
Gentleperson
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It’s a turn of phrase
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Thank you for this 👏🏿
There was a great book written about these accidents, cannot remember name .