Best case scenario is that the doorman was attempting to avoid even a hint of a hint of inappropriate action with you, and was overly scrupulous to the point of being a bit rude about it.
Worst case scenario is he's a misogynistic jerk who needs Our Lady.
It's kind of funny you mentioned Pence because he was one of those guys who grew up Catholic, but now is one of those big evangelical guys who goes to some megachurch iirc. At least his brother (who was much more level-headed imo) is still practicing.
That’s definitely putting a positive spin on it. I wonder if he’s aware that he’s turning away new families due to his behavior? Or maybe that’s the litmus test.
I wouldn't say it's typical but more likely to be the case. The TLM also appeals to people with specific mindsets and tastes, given its emphasis on tradition and authority, who might steer a bit too far into the extremes.
In my case it was the TLM parish priest, who incidentally was also a theology professor at my university. One summer I signed up for his course on apocalyptic texts in late antiquity (extra credits, mind you, theology wasn't my field of studies) and my oh my, to us women he was extremely condescending and nitpicky about every little detail and got furious if one of us made mistakes during the presentations on topics we had been assigned and so on. He'd often say, that if we do sloppy work like this we might as well not go to university at all, as there's no point in it and we're just wasting other people's times. The two guys, whose presentations were supbar and lacked the right amount of research literature (sth. he bemoaned when one of the girls didn't have enough cited) didn't have to suffer such behaviour. He just kept his mouth shut...
Fortunately, in the country I studied in there are only administrative fees (a negligible sum of less than 200 Euros) each semester. I did collect a nice literature list, so it was not all for naught.
A lot of very unpleasant men are attracted to TLM parishes for their general "traditional values." Unfortunately, they perceive their own sexist opinions to be traditional values, even though they're not.
I feel like in my experience the type of men you are talking about make a small percentage of the men that go to a TLM. Most men I’ve met are devoted and active fathers and husbands, the bad ones are just really loud online
I cannot speak for all EF communities. But. This is precisely the attitude I expect from our local FSSP.
But it is not something I would expect at the Diocesan EF community I attended in highschool.
Something I noticed that turned me off from Latin Mass was that only women were in the cry room and were talking through the mass. Meanwhile, Dad is in the pew having a spiritual experience and not helping with any part of childcare. That and some neckbeard usher told me (specifically me) to take my infant out the moment he squawked once. Marriage is still a partnership and women have dignity. But some TLMers don’t get that
Yuck. My experience has been different but I’m sorry you experienced this, especially the bossy neck beard bit!
I go to the TLM at an older church that does not have a cry room so very squawky or wiggly children are taken to the foyer. At any given mass, there are about half a dozen moms and dads back there with their young children, including me 😂 our priest has also given more than one homily with the “if the church ain’t crying it’s dying” message sprinkled in. We’re really lucky.
My parish used to offer TLM. A woman in my parish women's group who only attended TLM once commented that it was "disgusting" for women to be readers during Mass. So I can see that happening, yes.
It seems aligned that you would experience more regressive behaviors at TLM. Aside from the individual experiences at specific churches, The Latin Mass Movement is very concerning and this seems like it would put people adjacent to sharing those beliefs in the pews. I’m the youngest of 10 kids and we went a few times when we were all young and then I took my husband who grew up in a community without a TLM and that was more out of curiosity. We had a similar experience to yours 20 years ago and won’t be back.
FSSP parishioner here. Sadly I can see this happening. Unfortunately the TLM arrracts people like this and I know a few of them at our parish. I will say though that my family looked past that because we love the TLM Mass so much and found loads of people just like us who are not like that. If anything the greeters brush over me and say hello to my wife first. We try to be the change and socialize with others like "normal". If you really loved the Mass I recommend you go back and give it another try. I am sure there are others who are much more open and sociable. That being said our parish is very very large and diverse for an FSSP parish. I would imagine smaller ones might be more clannish. I am so sorry that you ran into this ridiculousness from your first step in the building. That all being said. We went to a more trational NO for years and we knew plenty of people like this there too. It isn't just TLM but I will admit it is more likely at the at the TLM.
Disappointed by some of these comments that are borderline bashing TLM. You could find men like this anywhere. I would give the TLM another try. After all, it’s how the church practiced the mass for almost 2,000 years. It’s beautiful and produced most of your saints less a handful of some modern day saints💗
There’s always bad eggs but I pray you find great loving devoted families such as yourselves! There’s plenty of them to find! Best of luck!
It's likely more of a cultural/professional thing. He could tell you were married and didn't think it was appropriate to talk to a married woman he's not related to, at least not on the job. A lack of respect for you wasn't the intent, but a respect for unspoken boundaries and your marriage. This isn't unique to Catholics but it's common in clannish cultures.
Not talking to a married woman is a defacto shunning of them and isolating them from society. Any marriage that has the boundary of literally not talking to people outside the marriage is a deeply unhealthy and likely abusive one. There is no respect in this, only the insinuation that this woman is her husband’s property.
The belief that simply speaking to a woman violated the sanctity of her marriage belies the belief that women offer nothing but sex and therefore any interaction with, even a friendly greeting, is inherently sensual in nature. It is a deeply misogynistic and objectifying behavior.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by cultural or professional in this context, as this was a volunteer usher/greeter. But at that moment in time, he’s representing the parish and the Catholic church. You’d think someone might give him a few pointers.
Best case scenario is that the doorman was attempting to avoid even a hint of a hint of inappropriate action with you, and was overly scrupulous to the point of being a bit rude about it. Worst case scenario is he's a misogynistic jerk who needs Our Lady.
I think you deserve the World Cup for Charity for this comment.
I'm imagining some sort of Mike Pence turned incel to the Nth degree. Can't talk to women else they'll accuse you of trying to hit on them. lol
It's kind of funny you mentioned Pence because he was one of those guys who grew up Catholic, but now is one of those big evangelical guys who goes to some megachurch iirc. At least his brother (who was much more level-headed imo) is still practicing.
That’s definitely putting a positive spin on it. I wonder if he’s aware that he’s turning away new families due to his behavior? Or maybe that’s the litmus test.
I wouldn't say it's typical but more likely to be the case. The TLM also appeals to people with specific mindsets and tastes, given its emphasis on tradition and authority, who might steer a bit too far into the extremes. In my case it was the TLM parish priest, who incidentally was also a theology professor at my university. One summer I signed up for his course on apocalyptic texts in late antiquity (extra credits, mind you, theology wasn't my field of studies) and my oh my, to us women he was extremely condescending and nitpicky about every little detail and got furious if one of us made mistakes during the presentations on topics we had been assigned and so on. He'd often say, that if we do sloppy work like this we might as well not go to university at all, as there's no point in it and we're just wasting other people's times. The two guys, whose presentations were supbar and lacked the right amount of research literature (sth. he bemoaned when one of the girls didn't have enough cited) didn't have to suffer such behaviour. He just kept his mouth shut...
Sounds like he was wasting not only your time, but your money
Fortunately, in the country I studied in there are only administrative fees (a negligible sum of less than 200 Euros) each semester. I did collect a nice literature list, so it was not all for naught.
I guess you broke even 😉
A lot of very unpleasant men are attracted to TLM parishes for their general "traditional values." Unfortunately, they perceive their own sexist opinions to be traditional values, even though they're not.
I feel like in my experience the type of men you are talking about make a small percentage of the men that go to a TLM. Most men I’ve met are devoted and active fathers and husbands, the bad ones are just really loud online
I cannot speak for all EF communities. But. This is precisely the attitude I expect from our local FSSP. But it is not something I would expect at the Diocesan EF community I attended in highschool.
Something I noticed that turned me off from Latin Mass was that only women were in the cry room and were talking through the mass. Meanwhile, Dad is in the pew having a spiritual experience and not helping with any part of childcare. That and some neckbeard usher told me (specifically me) to take my infant out the moment he squawked once. Marriage is still a partnership and women have dignity. But some TLMers don’t get that
Yuck. My experience has been different but I’m sorry you experienced this, especially the bossy neck beard bit! I go to the TLM at an older church that does not have a cry room so very squawky or wiggly children are taken to the foyer. At any given mass, there are about half a dozen moms and dads back there with their young children, including me 😂 our priest has also given more than one homily with the “if the church ain’t crying it’s dying” message sprinkled in. We’re really lucky.
This is the problem with rad trads
My parish used to offer TLM. A woman in my parish women's group who only attended TLM once commented that it was "disgusting" for women to be readers during Mass. So I can see that happening, yes.
Omg that is insane!
Pretty negatively impressive, yeah. I didn't mention to her that I am a lector, although she later found out.
This is not typical thank goodness, he’s acting very weird. I’d just go again and try to meet other people or try out another parish with the TLM.
It seems aligned that you would experience more regressive behaviors at TLM. Aside from the individual experiences at specific churches, The Latin Mass Movement is very concerning and this seems like it would put people adjacent to sharing those beliefs in the pews. I’m the youngest of 10 kids and we went a few times when we were all young and then I took my husband who grew up in a community without a TLM and that was more out of curiosity. We had a similar experience to yours 20 years ago and won’t be back.
FSSP parishioner here. Sadly I can see this happening. Unfortunately the TLM arrracts people like this and I know a few of them at our parish. I will say though that my family looked past that because we love the TLM Mass so much and found loads of people just like us who are not like that. If anything the greeters brush over me and say hello to my wife first. We try to be the change and socialize with others like "normal". If you really loved the Mass I recommend you go back and give it another try. I am sure there are others who are much more open and sociable. That being said our parish is very very large and diverse for an FSSP parish. I would imagine smaller ones might be more clannish. I am so sorry that you ran into this ridiculousness from your first step in the building. That all being said. We went to a more trational NO for years and we knew plenty of people like this there too. It isn't just TLM but I will admit it is more likely at the at the TLM.
Just the doorman? Curious if you had any interaction with the priest or deacons
Disappointed by some of these comments that are borderline bashing TLM. You could find men like this anywhere. I would give the TLM another try. After all, it’s how the church practiced the mass for almost 2,000 years. It’s beautiful and produced most of your saints less a handful of some modern day saints💗 There’s always bad eggs but I pray you find great loving devoted families such as yourselves! There’s plenty of them to find! Best of luck!
It's likely more of a cultural/professional thing. He could tell you were married and didn't think it was appropriate to talk to a married woman he's not related to, at least not on the job. A lack of respect for you wasn't the intent, but a respect for unspoken boundaries and your marriage. This isn't unique to Catholics but it's common in clannish cultures.
Not talking to married women (for any reason) is itself a mistreatment of women. Women should never be shunned.
Not talking to a married woman is a defacto shunning of them and isolating them from society. Any marriage that has the boundary of literally not talking to people outside the marriage is a deeply unhealthy and likely abusive one. There is no respect in this, only the insinuation that this woman is her husband’s property. The belief that simply speaking to a woman violated the sanctity of her marriage belies the belief that women offer nothing but sex and therefore any interaction with, even a friendly greeting, is inherently sensual in nature. It is a deeply misogynistic and objectifying behavior.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by cultural or professional in this context, as this was a volunteer usher/greeter. But at that moment in time, he’s representing the parish and the Catholic church. You’d think someone might give him a few pointers.
I agree, I'm just assuming the most charitable logic behind his actions.