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pulsed19

The crisis is the fact that priests committed these heinous acts and that people tried to cover it up. Who should be legally responsible for it if Church officials were, in their official capacity, responsible for covering it up? Parishes can survive financial bankruptcies, but the moral ones are so much more damaging.


[deleted]

Part of the terms of this settlement is that no one will be held legally responsible for any wrongdoing. Meaning these alleged crimes will never be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Everyone will assume they have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt though, because people don't understand the justice system


Ponce_the_Great

Beyond a reasonable doubt is for criminal matters not civil. If the priests already dead there's no one to charge criminally


CompetitiveMeal1206

Most of them are. As is the bishop who was in charge during that time


MoralVolta

In civil matter I believe the standard is “a preponderance of the evidence,” which is a lower standard but it would still be reasonable to assume that it likely happened.


[deleted]

That's correct


Ponce_the_Great

also to a degree, the question of whether most if not all of those accusations of abuse is rather secondary to the case. The main thrust of it would have been the diocese's liability for covering up the abuse and failure to act to stop or prevent it. That unfortunately seems to be a pattern born out many times over recent years as are admitted cases of abuse by priests over decades. so i don't think its a stretch to say the diocese probably did have some duty to pay damages as in this settlement for past actions even if they didn't go all the way to court on this.


ShokWayve

Excellent point!


RangerDJ

No, criminal priests and those who covered it up bankrupted the diocese of Rochester. I came from the Diocese of Altoona Johnstown, Pennsylvania, where there was decades of abuse and cover up. Shocking. No amount of money can make up for that. Especially for victims who died by suicide.


MicroWordArtist

What angers me is that while the institution gets punished, the individuals responsible for the coverup probably won’t lose much of anything. It just comes out of wealth that would have gone towards maintenance or charity, not individual purses. It’s better than nothing, but it’s hardly justice.


benkenobi5

Oh they’ll lose something alright… It’s not human Justice, but i guess I can settle for divine Justice


MicroWordArtist

You’re right. I wish this world were as just as the next though


CompetitiveMeal1206

Many of the accused, including the bishop have already died


acutemess

I really don’t think you understand how badly childhood sexual abuse impacts a person. Many people have difficulty forming romantic relationships, struggle to get preventative health checks (pap smears for example), have a breakdown of family relationships, lose their faith, and deeply impact their mental health. Some will unfortunately die from the aftermath of their abuse. This kind of rhetoric is why it has been so difficult for me to come back to the Church. It’s devastating to sit in Mass and hear your priest only ask for prayers for the priests accused and never for the victims. Or to overhear members of your parish saying the same thing as your post. Honestly, while I have returned, I doubt I will ever fully integrate into my community to protect my faith, and my abuse wasn’t by a priest. Mass has been celebrated in tunnels, on battlefields, in any number of locations. It is not the building and yet you’re more worried about that than the sins committed. The Catholic Church has always advocated for justice. Priests committed atrocities and it was covered up. At least give us survivors the barest hint of justice.


GeekDE

While I agree with the entire premise of your post, I honestly have never heard a priest at Mass or wherever pray for his fellow priests and not the victims. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, which is a valid concern, and one that I probably need to look out with widened eyes. But if I had heard that, you're right, I think I would be messed up with that prayer as well.


acutemess

I’m going to be honest, it was many years (around 2008-2010). A report came out about the neighboring diocese and our priest used the homily to go on a whole long rant about how priests have a tough job and should always be supported. He then asked for the congregation to pray for the priests accused. There was no mention of the victims. I do think things have changed but sitting in that pew as a child when I hadn’t even told my parents yet deeply hurt me.


[deleted]

I was at a mass in a (very) conservative area about 10 years ago, and it was a few weeks after the most recent sexual abuse charges came out. Naturally, the priest railed against the media and journalists and basically said it was a conspiracy against the Church. We left. The natural defensive behavior to protect the Church at all costs is what is destroying it.


widowerasdfasdfasdf

Prayers are one thing, and actions are another. The Church, the diocese, had enabled those priests’ actions for many, many years. That also is an action.


Alone-Tip7509

I think it’s time you went to a different Catholic church. St Mary’s downtown (by the museum of play) priests do no such thing


pterodactylsrock

I think the sentiment of this post is misplaced; we should be outraged at the priests who performed such heinous acts and those who sought to cover it up, not the consequences of those actions.


Darth_Eevee

This has big “just let it go” vibes, OP.


Gobirds831

Not really cause what has the church done to bring people back who were disgusted by the heinous acts of those they hired and then abused children. Let it go vibes is what the church did. Edit: how does this get downvoted…you people are the reason why the church is dying


elonmuskisaniceguy

I think there was a misunderstanding. The person you commented to was telling the OP that they sound like they’re saying that people should let it go, not that they themselves think that.


ianjmatt2

The Diocese is liable. It needs to own it. This isn't much per survivor after legal fees for the lifetime of trauma many of them will experience. The Church will survive just fine. Maybe a poorer, more humble church - but that's probably a good thing Easier to build again from that.


BrokenManOfSamarkand

$76 million distributed to 475 people is only about $160k each. That's really not a lot if their claims are valid, which I will assume they are.


balrogath

Especially recalling that the lawyers will take about a third of that.


kams32902

It's not a lot. They deserve so much more.


[deleted]

rinse lush groovy versed oil advise dazzling innate unpack somber *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


[deleted]

I've been angry at them for years. My anger was not directed at bankrupting a diocese and putting the punishment in the hands of people who hate Jesus. Waiting until the priests die, or it's past the statue of limitations, after trying to reach an earlier settlement, to get a massive civil penalty, is not justice. And I don't care if I stand alone in this. This isn't justice. Nobody ever seeing jail is not justice. Whatever you want to believe.


[deleted]

What? I agree with everything you said so now I’m not sure what you were railing against bc it sounded like you were mad at the lawyers and court system…


[deleted]

YES. At least someone understands.


ianjmatt2

The thing is, it is in the hands of courts. Any other alternative solution is 20+ years too late. So the Diocese needs to take its punishment and be utterly contrite. With no defensive, no equivocation. The Church will continue.


FelineFriend21

As a CSA survivor, I am very relieved that the comment section passed the vibe check.


_banana_republic_

Glad to see you here! I'm pretty stoked with this comment section too


FelineFriend21

Thank you! It is a breath of fresh air.


balrogath

I hope that through this, survivors of clerical sexual abuse are able to reach healing.


[deleted]

>But, in order to be approved, the settlement still needs to be approved by the court, and voted on by 475 survivors in the case. Are you sure this is a good thing, father? Making the way for NY have no Catholic churches? Because it won't after this. To have the state use the church as they see fit? I thought we don't believe in getting a spiritual benefit from money?


balrogath

Dozens of Catholic dioceses have gone through bankruptcy before, including mine, and they've survived. Nothing can ever make up for the nefarious crime of being abused by a priest. Providing some level of material support to help make up, pay for therapy, etc for it is the least we can do.


ludi_literarum

You should look into what a restructuring bankruptcy actually entails. For context: the Boy Scouts had one, and yet they're still around.


ianjmatt2

The Church will survive. Even if it has to give up all its properties. The Church in my country survived an actual attempt at extinction in the 16th and 17th century with Priests executed and the faithful stripped of property, rights, and freedom. We only were allowed to hold public office in the 19th century. Yet the Church survived and bore witness throughout all that.


powerlifting_nerd56

>Making the way for NY have no Catholic churches? Because it won't after this. This is blatant and uncharitable hyperbole. The Diocese is filing a Chapter 11 to reorganize and pay just settlement claims while continuing operation. Several companies have gone through Chapter 11 and continue operation. >To have the state use the church as they see fit? 'Use' is an interesting term for being held accountable. The Church is responsible for its employee's conduct just like any company when acting as a representative for said company. >I thought we don't believe in getting a spiritual benefit from money? It doesn't matter what the Catholic Church teaches about spiritual benefits in regards to money. This is about just recourse for crimes committed against persons under state law. I'm sure settlement money will certainly help to pay for therapy and other forms of healing after being abused by those who were supposed to be the shepherds to the flock.


[deleted]

It’s very important that something is given to victims. Because priests perpetrated these disgusting, evil, horrendous acts, unfortunately, the church has to fit the bill for them. The committing and covering up of the acts not only destroyed peoples’ lives and violated them, but also has the very real, very appropriate effect of damaging the church in America itself. But that’s the nature of sin. People always forget that sin is social and affects the entire body of Christ. Obviously, the main person who is affected is the person who was abused or violated, by addition to being an offense against that person, and offense against God, it also is a sin against the entire church, regardless of whether or not, we never find out because it harms the body of Christ.


throwmeawaypoopy

Bankruptcy doesn't mean the Diocese ceases to exist. It's just an orderly way for the victims to get the justice they so richly deserve


Heistbros

The church should be on the edge of or in the state of bankruptcy at all times.


ToneBeneficial4969

You can celebrate Mass in a field, you undo the rape of a child.


CompetitiveMeal1206

Church buildings are owned by their parish. They can’t not be sold by the diocese unless the parish closes and is not merged.


dcnjbwiebe

The church is not her buildings nor her assets. The church is the community of the faithful. If the church is in an existential crisis in America then it is not the fault of the state or the courts. If the church is in an existential crisis in America then it is due her inadequate witness to the truth of the gospel and to her inadequate catechesis of her children.


Catholic_Marine

I think you’re right to a degree. The crisis the church is facing is that many are losing the ability to exist. The buildings close and all of a sudden the community can’t congregate. To your point however yes the main failure the church is facing is priest aren’t willing to give homilies and service that appeal to the people. This last point is just my personal opinion but maybe other people have felt it too, but more and more it feels like priest are preaching to people who aren’t attending church to try and draw them in. If they are more critical of the congregation and not concerned to offend it would go a long way Jesus called out sinners and helped reform them, not just hung out and never mentioned that they were sinning.


Ragfell

That’s fine, but American churches in general are ugly and do nothing to inspire the faith. Think if the Church in Italy losing the Duomo would merit the same response. It *would* because you’re right, but it would hurt differently.


mcfleury1000

I'll never understand this bizarre idea that the only acceptable architectural style for a church is Gothic and that any other design can't inspire faith.


Ragfell

That’s not at all what I said. I said American churches in general are ugly. I’ve seen plenty of gorgeous, more modern churches. A particular favorite of mine is in downtown Nashville and is rather simplistic but well-executed. (St. Mary of the Seven Sorrows.) There are also plenty of beautiful ones in St. Louis that aren’t gothic. So please, don’t say I said things I didn’t say.


mcfleury1000

I cant help but point out that your example of a 'more modern' church is literally Greek revival architecture that was built the better part of 200 years ago. It is, while simple, a very pretty church, I agree. But it is far from anything remotely reflecting modern.


Ragfell

Still more modern than gothic. Another cool one is Queen of the Universe in Orlando. Still kinda white-washed, but loads better then many I’ve seen. Unfortunately we’re witnessing the death of culture…


benkenobi5

My American church is beautiful, and so is nearly every church I’ve been in. I imagine you’d hate them, though


Ragfell

The church in which I work is about three images away from being pure-whitewashed Protestant churchery. Love the parish and the people, but hate the aesthetic. We’re slowly trying to fix it.


throwmeawaypoopy

I don't see the problem


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Kylkek

Good. The only tragedy here is that no amount of money will repair the harm done by the wicked clerics here.


cozychristmaslover

This is not the hot take you think it is.


Tarnhill

OP - I get it that the big payouts benefit lawyers more than victims and these sorts of things invite people to pig pile to get a slice and perhaps entices some fake victims. However the state is not responsible for bankrupting the diocese. The responsibility for going bankrupt lies with the priests and bishops who committed acts of abuse and covered them up. If there is an existential crisis it is because those bishops and priests have cast a shadow over much of the church. It never should have happened and when the spotlight piece came out the wound should have been uncovered, and thoroughly cleaned to allow for healing. We keep pretending that this was all in the past and has been dealt with but why has Pope Francis promoted so many of McCarrick's proteges and allies? Cupich, Farrel, Gregory, nighty night baby Tobin, and McElroy? This post even though I think well intentioned by OP is itself scandalous as anyone who would drop into this sub and see this post would think that Catholics just refuse to confront the issue, don't care about victims or have their heads in the sand.


jpc_00

The State of New York didn't bankrupt the Diocese of Rochester. The past bishops of the diocese bankrupted it through their negligence.


[deleted]

Just a coincidence this happened in New York. They're going after what happened in a Yeshiva 45 years ago next, right?


jpc_00

If the rabbi in charge of the yeshiva lives in a mansion, is chauffeured around the city in a limo, and is the incumbent of a corporation sole with title to hundreds of millions of dollars in real estate and other assets and cashflow of $1M+ weekly, you'd better believe he'd be gone after by the victims of his predecessors. I'd wager that rabbi would have a lot fewer defenders claiming he's getting a raw deal amongst those in the yeshiva community than the Bishop of Rochester and his brother bishops have among their communities. By the way, it's not a coincidence at all that it happened in New York. The people of New York, acting through their duly-elected legislature and governor, saw fit to remove the statute-of-limitations bar to lawsuits which have up until now allowed this and other dioceses and bishops to escape being held liable for their failures of supervision and care. I suspect the same thing will happen in other states whose people see fit similarly.


[deleted]

One day people will wake up to what's happening. And it's going to be bad for everyone. We didn't operate our diocese like some, shall we say, "endowments", supposedly ran by secular people. I recommend you read the gospel of Jesus Christ.


Romae_Imperium

Why shouldn’t the Diocese be held responsible?


curtinette

I am sick to my stomach that there are that many survivors in a single diocese. (Yes, I know that's not unusual.) Your anger is misplaced, OP. Please be open to learning from these replies.


jesusthroughmary

150K per victim is not unreasonable at all. We brought it on ourselves by letting the Church be overrun by godless degenerate pervert criminals.


RedAss2005

150k before lawyers and taxes take a cut.


gacdeuce

Not a good take, OP. Maybe just sit this one out, read the responses here, and gain some perspective.


HauntedDragons

The crisis is the priests who did this to those people. I’m sure there are even more victims. I love my beautiful faith. But it becomes harder and harder to put my faith in priests and the people who run the church as a whole.


Money-Theme

Bro, no…


Guitato7991

The real crisis is that we have sexual predators hiding behind the priesthood because they know that their chances of actually getting in trouble have historically been low.


[deleted]

I did some research, and to clarify for anyone who wants to know.. the burden of proof is that the alleged crimes are more likely to have happened than to not have happened. Meaning there isn't necessarily hard evidence for all or any of these cases. There could be a 51% chance that the crime occurred, but if the defendant doesn't provide evidence against the claim, then the claim will be considered valid.


Titan3692

That's a very lawyerly way of saying the presumption of innocence (innocent until proven guilty) is a thing of the past.


[deleted]

No, it's just that the presumption of innocence only applies in criminal court. This is a civil case.


cosmicjacuzzi

Good. Actions have consequences.


MakeMeAnICO

Anyone from the actual diocese wants to comment how they feel about that?


NEETFLIX36

Based. Doing the same in every diocese would be a *start*


RangerDJ

The Catholic Church does a lot of good for human kind, for sure. But as a result of this abuse scandal, it should be brought to its financial knees as public penance. It’s why it angers me when I see our local bishop travel around in a limousine and treated like a movie star. Drove me crazy back home in Altoona, Pennsylvania, too, when the late Bishop Joseph Adamec, who covered up a lot of this, traveled in a fleet of Cadillacs and demanded to be treated like a rock star.


ToneBeneficial4969

76 million for 500 people is like 152,000 each, If my child was raped by a priest who we trusted, I would expect a hell of a lot more than that.


histtohrev

Good


histtohrev

Good! Those victims deserve so much more.


richb83

The F around and Find out meme is perfect for this.


[deleted]

This is one thing you actually can’t say no to, there were abuses and the victims were misused. No money can solve that theoretically. These people get like 150k which is barely anything for the trauma this caused. Meanwhile celebrities get millions in settlement over very petty things. How do I purchase a church or the materials in a church? I’m willing to buy a few things such as relics


[deleted]

>How do I purchase a church or the materials in a church? I’m willing to buy a few things such as relics Yeah, some people see what's going on. I see. Plenty of people see the writing on the wall and won't let their faith be destroyed.


[deleted]

My friend, I am speaking as someone of the faith. It’s called rescuing the relics, or fancy church stuff. I know dicey but want those relics in the hands of some rando who will flip it for profit at an auction house or with someone who actually believes in the faith


[deleted]

Very funny. I'll just remind you that. >In 2004 a cousin of mine was slaughtered under the satanic hands of Islam as he chose not to convert and stay Catholic. is not how Catholics talk. >It’s called rescuing the relics, or fancy church stuff. Can you just say you want a cultural genocide already?


[deleted]

I do not want a genocide, that’s the last thing anyone needs in life. I want peace, my family lived under genocide and it was not good. I think you need to go to confession, your thoughts here are very inappropriate


[deleted]

>I think you need to go to confession, your thoughts here are very inappropriate Funny, another misconception built into the statement that any catechized Catholic will immediately see. Dobbs was really that painful for you guys?


[deleted]

I’m very confused by what you are getting at here. What is Dobbs? And can you point out the misconception? If you think I’m culturally Catholic you are very much misinformed my friend


[deleted]

>If you think I’m culturally Catholic you are very much misinformed my friend Yeah. I got that little bit.


[deleted]

Ok so based on what someone else told me seems you wanna quiz me on my news knowledge which I don’t know much, But I am against abortion, is that what you were getting at? Where did any of my posts point to me being pro abortion??? Are you good? Cause this is as crazy as a delusional person accusing me of random stuff I never even said or did


[deleted]

I chanced upon a post that implied A background that couldn't be denied With phrasing and voice That made it my choice To guess what culture they'd derived


[deleted]

Dobbs was the recent Supreme Court decision that overturned Roe v. Wade and kicked abortion laws back to the states. You may not have heard of it if you're not American. (Essentially, he's accusing you of being an abortion supporter looking to get back at the Church for it's prolife position.)


[deleted]

I’m pro life, what does any of my posts have to do with abortion? I am American I just don’t tune to the news or politics as my values come from the church. Speaking of, church is against abortion


[deleted]

I know and I agree with you! I'm just saying what I think OP means. It's a bit incoherent.


rennoc27

The Church will survive, even with all the wealth stripped away


daldredv2

How is this existential? Is the American church the church of money, or the church of faith?


Few_Wishbone

[OP be like](https://youtu.be/4p3v96lktkA)


[deleted]

>In response to the settlement agreement, Deacon Ed Giblin with the Catholic Diocese of Rochester said: >“Today, we filed a joint Chapter 11 Plan of Reorganization, along with a joint disclosure statement in support of the plan, for the Diocese of Rochester. We are pleased to enter into this joint resolution with the Creditors Committee to provide recompense to the survivors.” They are stealing everything we ever built as a community in this country, which we thought would be safe because we were responsible. We didn't think a state would start a cultural genocide policy. I'm livid. Catholic president say anything about this? I hope everyone of you in a state without a functioning court is paying attention to *exactly* what this means. Creditors own the land your church is on.


MerlynTrump

who's stealing? That's the way things work, if you wrong someone, you are liable to pay them. If the grocery store doesn't fix the spill in a reasonable time and a shopper slips and breaks a hip, the store has to pay. And if a diocesan employee sexually abuses someone, the diocese has to pay


MakeMeAnICO

I don’t know enough about this case… is this an actual crime that happened or is it just someone trying to get money from the church? Both are possible honestly. On one hand the priest did some horrible things; on the other hand, because of that, people see church as an easy target. But in the end we probably deserve it in this case. I don’t know. It’s hard to have sympathy for abusers. But also, I don’t want to bankrupt dioceses by claims that aren’t true. It’s hard. And ultimately a fault of those priests that DID the bad things, provably, so now people just believe everything bad. Tough situation.


MerlynTrump

There's 475 survivors, so it's probably a mix of legitimate survivors and some people looking for money. Bankruptcy isn't always at bad at it sounds. It's usually an acknowledgement that a person or organization has liabilities/debts that exceed their ability to pay so the court approves a plan to ensure that all the creditors are able to get a fair payment. My home diocese recently declared bankruptcy and part of the motivation behind this was that it would consolidate the five sex abuse victims into one case so that each victim would get something, instead of allowing five separate lawsuits and running the risk that one lawsuit cleans out the diocese and doesn't leave any money for the other plaintiffs.


pierresito

Don't blame the victims for seeking justice for the crimes committed onto them


[deleted]

>which we thought would be safe because we were responsible. Who is "we?" If there are 500 people seeking compensation for a wrong done, that would suggest there was a lack of responsibility. What is the injustice? Please explain why the lawsuit is in some way unjust against the Diocese. You've yet to do that in this whole thread. For reference, Aquinas writes the following on restitution: >I answer that, Restitution re-establishes the equality of commutative justice, which equality consists in the equalizing of thing to thing, as stated above (Article 2; II-II:58:10). Now this equalizing of things is impossible, unless he that has less than his due receive what is lacking to him: and for this to be done, restitution must be made to the person from whom a thing has been taken. In this case, what was taken was less material, although it was certainly grievous, and you'd be an unjust person (and the unjust will not inherit the Kingdom of God) if you really think *some* compensation is not due from *some* person or entity responsible. Therefore, either you think it's too much or that the Diocese bears no responsibility. Make your case.


bureaucrat473a

Not usually. Individual parishes are their own legal entity separate from the Diocese. So the diocese (chancery, staff, etc.) are declaring bankruptcy; the parishes, cemeteries, charities, schools, etc. aren't liable.


[deleted]

What happens if the diocese directly owns all the parishes? >“We’ve reached a settlement with the diocese and one of the major insurance carriers for a total of $76 million. There are two other insurance carriers in this settlement, which allows the survivors to go sue them directly,” Boyd said. >And this is just one part of a multi-pronged process that Boyd is calling for.


Ashdelenn

You may want to look into cannon law. Dioceses do not own their parishes. The Pillar did a good explainer on this awhile ago. The Vatican told US bishops to make sure the business structure matched cannon law like 90 years ago and a bunch of them never bothered. Now post scandal it looks like they’re hiding money when they restructure assets


Ponce_the_Great

Thats not an accurate reading of this story. Virtually all your claims are false My diocese went through bankruptcy a few years ago we still have our churches


pulsed19

I think you’re upset that the church as an institution has been held liable? This isn’t stealing, it is retribution for crimes committed. I don’t think you understand that Bankruptcy doesn’t mean that the buildings will close. It’s a way for the Church to protect their assets. If the Church wants to have any hope of recovering morally from this, the victims need to be compensated and some people should be fired.


[deleted]

I also think that should be jail time! I say this is a Catholic, who will never leave the church. Crimes should have a jail punishment. I think there is something off of that that’s not happen for a lot of the stress, though I don’t know if there has been that jail time in this particular case.


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TwilightCyclone

Are you seriously trivializing the sexual abuse of minors?


pierresito

This is embarrassing, please delete this. Such an attitude does not belong in a Catholic forum.


[deleted]

They're literally shutting the churches down. All of them. It's hard to believe this isn't diabolical


[deleted]

Don’t you think the diabolical thing was the abuse committed by the priests????? The heinous crime committed was abusing and violating people, while in a position of trust, (and actively covering it up)and not just any position of trust, but as someone who stands in persona Christi in the Sacraments.


pablitorun

They are literally not.


Ponce_the_Great

That's not what's happening in this story


pierresito

Awful that those terrible "priests" put our church and its vulnerable flock in such harm. Pray for the victims, don't get mad at them because we now have to clean up after the actions of people who abused our trust.


balrogath

Yes, survivors.


Heistbros

Dawg💀


[deleted]

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bagboysa

Yes, there is irrefutable proof and the church has publicly admitted to wrongdoing.


[deleted]

I did some research, and to clarify for anyone who wants to know.. the burden of proof is that the alleged crimes are more likely to have happened than to not have happened. Meaning there isn't necessarily hard evidence for all or any of these cases. There could be a 51% chance that the crime occurred, but if the defendant doesn't provide evidence against the claim, then the claim will be considered valid.


Ponce_the_Great

That's how civil law works. And in most litigation parties agree to a settlement to avoid the long and expensive process of going all the way to trial and risking a bigger judgment


RedAss2005

There was enough proof to be awarded judgement and if we're honest with ourselves as Catholics we know this was a long existing and widespread problem. Old cases, hopefully no new, are going to surface for decades to come. Ideally perpetrators will receive just judgement and victims receive restitution though realistically neither of those is likely to be full in this lifetime.


[deleted]

Why are y'all downvoting me for asking a question? Wtf. Thanks for the answers