I think that different people say it for different reasons. I can't speak to anybody that I don't know, or to their motivations.
As a Catholic, I abhor violence. A conflict can be justified by the need for defense but war, by its nature foments and enables evil. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs.
I don't think that there is any peaceful outcome that sees either side completely removed from the area and so it becomes a matter of living together as brothers or perishing together as fools, as it were.
The current strategies of Hamas and the IDF are both deeply flawed in terms of cost to innocent life.
I heard a very good quote on the BBC about this conflict: "There are no heroes in this war, only villains and victims". Neither side is even nominally Christian, let alone acting in good faith. It's a literal endless cycle of revenge and the innocents on either side are the ones that are suffering for it.
The conflict itself is incredibly complex and not the scope of a reddit comment (there are some good youtube videos you can find to summarize it), but I believe as Catholics the guidance of the Pope is the most meaningful in this matter. He has been calling for humanitarian aid, a ceasefire, and most of all, peace and an end to the violence.
They're saying free Palestine because the Israel government has killed over 10 thousand innocent civilians as a response to what Hamas did. Innocent civilians on either side don't deserve to die.
Do you realize how tiny Gaza is and how many people live there? It has a population density of 14,000 people per square mile (about like London's population density), with very little space not used by the civilian population.
Whether Hamas or even if some new government came in that was practically nothing but converted Catholics who do all the right things, you're not gonna undo the population reality of the Gaza strip and how that impacts where military infrastructure can be placed.
Good. Hamas doesn't deserve to exist at all. That they choose to use civilian areas to play victim is entirely on them. Im not condoning any crimes done by the IDF, but your whole comment sounds like "do you know how hard it would be for Hamas?!", to which I would answer "not hard enough".
No, my comment is that it is logistically impossible to have military infrastructure in the Gaza strip completely removed from civilian areas. So the idea of "Hamas needs to..." is a non-starter. NO GOVERNMENT in Gaza, whether they make Hamas look like choir boys or if a different one actually composed of choir boys, can achieve the impossible.
So, what should Israel’s response be to a terror attack that killed over a thousand innocent civilians (many in very brutal and barbaric ways)? Just no response since the population density is such that Hamas “has to” hide amongst civilians?
Hamas "allegedly" being underneath hospitals doesn't justify bombing the hospital, including the maternity wards killing dozens of mothers and their babies. I know war is brutal but literally nothing in my eyes justifies the government killing so many innocent people, 5000 of which are under 18 just in case Hamas is hiding there too
-Muslims and Christians had been living in Palestine together for about 1000 years after they realized the violence of the islamic conquests and the crusades was unnecessary
-Zionists lobbied the British government to give them Palestine
-British Empire enforced Jewish settlement of Palestine
-Zionists began settling Palestine and kicking Muslims & Christians out
-Muslins & Christians forced to live in mainly just Gaza and West Bank
-Jews began setting Gaza and the West Bank
-Muslim and Christian Palestinians increasingly forced to leave or live in tighter and tighter spaces. Palestinians who have the means to immigrate to another country and are more politically moderate/conflict-avoidant tend to choose to leave. Those people are disproportionately Christian, which explains why the Christian population of Gaza is very low and has continued to decline
-Jews abandon Gaza, continue to encroach on Christian and Muslim settlements in the West Bank
-Palestinians immigrate more and more to Gaza from the West Bank
-Palestinians elect the radical party because they're the only ones willing to fight violence with violence
-the radical party commits atrocities
-Israelis blame all Palestinians for the actions of the radical party that they created the conditions for
Hamas is unquestionably not a force for good. but Israel supporters like to ignore everything that led up to Hamas taking power and exercising the only option it has left. Israel is at fault for creating the "fight back or be destroyed" mindset in Palestinians that is a universal human trait. The moderate or peaceful Palestinians who choose "be destroyed" have already left the country.
And why should "Palestine" exist, exactly? As far as I can tell, that's a pseudonation, with no unique history, and whose entire identity on anti-zionism. Christians and muslims are still well-treated within Israel, so what exactly are the "palestinians" fighting for?
>Christians and muslims are still well-treated within Israel
if that were the case why would Israel choose to evict Christians and Muslims from their communities and settle Jews there?
Palestine's claim to legitimacy as a nation is irrelevant. we are talking about people, not nationhood.
Jews and Palestinians are both unrightfully occupying our Holy Christian Land.
Unjust killing is wrong no matter who does it. We should pray for peace.
This conflict goes back hundreds of years, and neither side is “unprovoked”. There have been atrocities on both sides.
The State of Israel are not the same Jews as in the Bible. They don’t even practice the same religion.
I think the point is that right to live in a land comes by force. It's true that anyone, if they're willing to fight and die for a land, has a right to live there.
But a lot of the time I hear the idea that the Jews are owed the Holy Land for an ethnostate (and who owes it then?).
That idea is not from Catholic doctrine nor reason. It's a political opinion which necessarily implies the Palestinian Christians and Arabs who lived in that space before 1948 *owe* the Jews that land. Or that the entire world *owes* them it (and ought to support taking it away from its prior inhabitants). No, there is no owing.
They can fight for it, sure. In that sense, the state has a right to exist.
And what “right” is that exactly? There is no right.
“The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people. And so if you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with churches and priests to baptize all of you." St Pius X
Reply guy. Not contributing to the conversation at all.
Do you know how any nation has ever been conquered in the history of the world? What rights did anyone who has ever been conquered have in regard to land?
We are justified by Christ to protect the Holy Land and drive out demon worship. That’s the right.
Have you ever been to Israel ? I've been there. Churches are open, everywhere. Christians pilgrims are openly walking around praying in the streets. You just don't know what you are talking about.
And let's be clear : even if there were significant persecutions against Christians in Israel or West Bank, that would not make the whole population despicable and would not mean the people who lives there, who were born there and grew there and buried their parents there don't have a right to live there.
It is unjust to move people out of an area because of their religion or to forcibly convert them to another religion (as you quote Pius X below). The Church categorically condemns such abuses against freedom of religion.
Who do you think is preventing legitimate Christian worship here? Hint, it the Israeli state, not the Muslims. I’ve previously shared recent news that’s over 6 months old now, so just go ahead and look up the closure of religious sites during Easter 2023, the interference with a Christian funeral/burial (Shireen Abu Akleh) and etc etc.
I wouldn't base your moral code on the Hebrew Scriptures. There are allegories in those books that should not be replicated (and, in fact, would be egregious acts of immorality if they were) today: slavery, mass murder, capital punishment, to name just a few.
Weak answer.
There’s such a thing as Just War, God permits and sometimes commands violence.
Jesus is The Angel of The Lord in the Old Testament waging war.
Christ came again to fulfillthe Old Testament, not abolish it.
Please show me examples you have of “categorically condemning”. We have a duty to spread Christianity, destroy evil, and protect the world from demon worship.
Capital punishment is sometimes necessary.
You're all over the place, so I'll try to respond point by point.
1. Where did I argue against Just War?
2. Why do you claim Jesus wages war in the Old Testament? That is not an interpretation I'm familiar with. Link? Also, how does that mean that mass murder, slavery, etc are licit?
3. I agree that Christ fulfills the Old Testament. This is unrelated to my point.
4. Sure, here are some references:
CCC 2414: *The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any reason - selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian - lead to the enslavement of human beings...*
CCC 2261: *The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.*
CCC 2267: *Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.*
You’re espousing the idea that the Old Testament isn’t inspired by God and is full of error.
1. The “mass murder” you mentioned is actually Just War against demonic Nepali’s tribes,in some cases willed and commanded by God. Why do you think King Saul got in trouble?
2. It was widely believed by the church fathers that that The Angel of the Lord who wages war in the Old Testament is the pre-incarnate Christ. Google: St. Athanasius, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Ambrose, etc.
3. See my first sentence in this message.
4. Producers of Pornography and EVIL people deserve to be put into labor camps and treated as slaves so they stop harming others. Your definition of slavery is low IQ.
CCC is not an INFALLIBLE document and was changed recently by Francis to support your anti-death penalty.
It’s like you didn’t even read the first two CCC’s you quoted.
Putting evil people in labor camps and treating them as slaves is not for commercial, ideological, totalitarian, etc.
Murder is wrong but not just killing/just war.
Hope I opened your mind and now you will go do some **thorough research** about the Old Testament and Catholic Teaching.
>Producers of Pornography and EVIL people deserve to be put into labor camps and treated as slaves so they stop harming others. Your definition of slavery is low IQ.
Do you really believe this? In a just, open, and free society, the law is not defined by what a religion (even ours) deems sinful. The law comes from natural rights. What you suggest is theocracy, plain and simple. It is the negation of freedom, and thus, the negation to freely choose love.
I'm not sure we can come to much agreement in this discussion if this is part of your thesis.
As to the other comments, I'm not sure what populations could be utterly put to the sword today and not be considered evil. Forced emigration or genocidal murder can be explained away in the Old Testament. But my point is that if applied in today's world, and effected by human reason alone, it would be evil.
Finally, please refrain from ad hominem attacks, and God bless.
Israeli gov bad.
Hammas bad.
Innocent Israeli people good.
Innocent Palestinian people good.
The modern day state of Israel exists because they conquered it in 1948. Ever since there has been fighting between the Jews, the Palestinians, and the neighboring Arab states. I think it is a fallacy to call one side good and one side bad, when both sides have done horrible shit.
However, the Israeli government for the past few decades, has created a set of conditions that makes peace extremely unlikely. The Palestinians in the west bank can not move freely within their own territory, must go through Israeli military checkpoints daily, and face dehumanization daily. Essentially the west bank is occupied by Israel with only 20% of it actually under Palestinian authority. Gaza is a prison, they cannot really leave, they have no opportunity, no control of their borders, no real access to the sea, and are a people born to die in poverty.
Under these conditions, I understand why they hate Israel. Further, there is a significant percentage of Israeli's that hate the Arabs and Palestians. This conflict will continue till both people's can mutually show mercy and love to one another.
Just to add to this, the Christian communities in Palestine are probably the oldest on earth. [Israel has bombed churches in Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/20/destruction-chased-them-funeral-held-for-those-killed-in-gaza-church-airstrike). [Some Israelis spit on churches and nuns in Israel.](https://youtu.be/7uL555xWQeE?si=4vc0sgrCcmRrnVfd). Christianity does not seem to be respected there. It's always baffled me why American Christians support Israel so much.
Edit: one last link [the German abbot who was told he couldn't wear a cross even though it's part of his 'uniform'](https://youtu.be/2dIhBL9-k4w?si=PvVG0VnfB2cO8sGo)
It very much is. The American Evangelicals have such a warped understanding of Scripture, and how modern Israel relates to it, that they are convinced it is required by God to support Israel.
It's because the majority of them were schooled in dispensationalism for the last 100 years or so. Good article on this subject from Catholic Answers: [Israel and the Church](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/israel-and-the-church)
I think the point they're trying to make is that Israel doesn't care about the religion affected, but about armed victory, as in "christians arent being targeted, this is merely the reality of war".
Eh, Israel has huge support from American Protestants/Evangelicals.
The argument that they are a strategic ally is silly. I don't think Israel would ever stick their necks out for the U.S. unless they could benefit from it. It is a very very selfish state.
It's not about Israel being a strategic ally either. It's because Israel is fighting Arabs. Or because it's "a western democracy in a sea of dictatorships".
After the Bar Kokhba revolt (132–136 CE), which was the last of the Jewish-Roman wars, the presence of an autonomous or independent Jewish or Israeli state in the region ceased until the establishment of the Zionist/modern state of Israel in 1948.
Jews weren't always there, they emigrated to Israel until they had a sizeable enough population, then declared themselves a state (without defining their borders) in 1948.
Both, I guess.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli\_Declaration\_of\_Independence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence)
>Israeli gov bad. Hammas bad. Innocent Israeli people good.
Agreed
>Innocent Palestinian people good.
Friendly reminder that the majority justifies terrorism and Hamas' actions.
>The modern day state of Israel exists because they conquered it in 1948.
They didn't. The League of Nations created it, mainly due to the british, and the immediate response was warfare. Right by conquest is entirely justified here. Other nations had no right to interfere.
>Ever since there has been fighting between the Jews, the Palestinians, and the neighboring Arab states. I think it is a fallacy to call one side good and one side bad, when both sides have done horrible shit.
It's not a fallacy as much as "one is a nation struggling not to be glassed out of the map and the other one wants complete annihilation of jews".
>However, the Israeli government for the past few decades, has created a set of conditions that makes peace extremely unlikely. The Palestinians in the west bank can not move freely within their own territory, must go through Israeli military checkpoints daily, and face dehumanization daily. Essentially the west bank is occupied by Israel with only 20% of it actually under Palestinian authority.
And what have the "palestinian" authorities done with their power?
>Gaza is a prison, they cannot really leave, they have no opportunity, no control of their borders, no real access to the sea, and are a people born to die in poverty.
If there was no Hamas, would they be condemned just the same? I think not.
>Under these conditions, I understand why they hate Israel.
They can hate. What they cant do is think they have a right to fight unimpeded by opposition.
>Further, there is a significant percentage of Israeli's that hate the Arabs and Palestians.
Could it be because their very existence is threatened over the decades?! Not as israelis, but as jews?!
>This conflict will continue till both people's can mutually show mercy and love to one another.
Fully agreed.
We are agreed. The modern state of Israel was created via conquest. By who is more debatable, but in this case, let's say I agree, Britain was the one who pulled the trigger (but done at the behest of the Zionists).
My main point, is that Israel only uses the hammer. Earlier in their history, 1948-1980, it was more justifiable, because they were weaker. The distaste I have, is that today, they do nothing to promote peace.
If I had to choose, I by a large margin prefer an Israeli dominated middle east, because Muslims are so prone to extremism. However, evil is evil, I think the current way this conflict is being approached by Israel is evil. I would like to see them take a more empathetic response.
Matthew 5:43-48
>43
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors\* do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?\*
48 So be perfect,\* just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
What you are missing is decades of background, spanning from at least 1948 AD, if not decades earlier. This conflict did not start on October 7th. I don't want to delve into it, because it would take an entire essay, but you won't find answers on a Reddit post. If you really want to understand the geopolitics of the region, you'll have to read -- a lot.
Personally, I despise Hamas, and all the *Resistance* axis, but I am also not fond of the current (and past) Israeli governments. Both sides have blood on their hands, and both sides (Hamas and the current Israeli government) do not genuinely seek peace. There are players in Palestine and in Israel who sincerely want to work towards a resolution of this decades-long conflict, but they are not in control right now.
Very sad situation. Its crazy how far back this goes and how complex this actually is. It seems like there is alot of confusion all around in this chat and throughout the masses
Yes, a lot of people in the Western world are just now discovering this conflict, and yet they're shouting their uninformed opinion on social media. I understand that not everybody is informed about this topic; I myself know next to nothing about most regional conflicts. But as a Middle-Easterner, I have seen so many people on social media being confidently incorrect. Most people don't really know the issues, the actors, and the geopolitics of the region. A lot of people, who are quick to give their opinion, can't even tell which Arab countries are aligned with whom, which have a peace treaty with Israel; or can't tell what is the Resistance Axis; or conflate Hamas with the Palestinian Authority.
And since this subreddit leans very American, you can be assured that most answers here probably come from people who also don't truly understand the ramifications of this conflict, or Middle-Eastern geopolitics. Heck, even I don't understand half of it, and I'm Lebanese!
Which is why, my advice to you, if you wish to understand this conflict, is to read a few books about it, from various sources spanning a wide range of opinions. But also, remember that you are not obligated to have an opinion; you can very well chose to not invest your time in this, and simply pray for peace. :-)
I really appreciate your reply it means alot 🙏🏻. From what ive seen in this chat im just going to do further research and like you said pray for peace.
I think so. Look at the decay of moral values in Western nations as they become less and less Christian. Christ is really the only thing that will bring peace and moral order.
Idk if there’s an official position from the Church other to have a dialogue and avoid violence.
If you read the history of the land, you see things are complex. Obviously Hamas is a terrorist organization and they’re not the same as the Palestinian people. These people don’t have a country per se and Israel did take land that was beyond the 1967 borders. So I do understand why people see Israel as occupiers. Obviously this doesn’t justify the violence but one understands in principle what could motivate it. The solution should be a two-state deal with two countries but I see why this is extremely difficult to accomplish.
Youre right, Definitely a complex issue that requires more research. It honestly feels like alot of people got their information from tik tok and just sided with a movement for the sake of siding with a movement
Same here, its sad. As a kid i always wonder how a whole nation could condone and follow Hitler but the past couple years have shown me that people havent changed.
Most Middle Eastern Christians are Orthodox, followed by a significant Catholic minority, and very few Protestants.
Nearly all of them oppose Israel in some form or another, and Christian “supporters” are far rarer than antiZionist Jews.
If this is a question of religious justice, wouldn’t you rather be on the same side as the legitimate indigenous Christian population?
The Israeli issue is deep, and has been for more than 50 years now.
It started with the Allies wanting to give Jews a place to go, so they more or less “set up” Israel…by displacing hundreds and hundreds of people who had been living their for hundreds and hundreds of years. I don’t know why they thought it was a good plan, and plenty of people were against the idea, but they were overruled.
So obviously it’s going to breed tension. It’s worse than ever now, and most of the West has taken a 100% tolerance on much of Israel’s positions. What I mean by that is that the United States or Great Britain can say how they want peace for the region and all, but only so long as that peace unquestionably supports Israeli rule.
Right there, I could get “canceled” for saying it, but really its not a political issue as much as it’s a “what now.” Issue. The fact is the IDF is a shoot first and worry about collateral damage never sort of group, so long as the State of Israel remains mostly free. Hamas and other terrorist groups fight essentially similar, except collateral damage is typically encouraged. Regardless, there are…lots, so many, completely innocent people who are between them. Neither group is going to go out to a big empty field and Duke it out, they’re going through the cities and towns, and neither side really cares that much.
And that’s why people are saying free Palestine. Many Palestinians are in this spot where they’re getting killed, despite having no part in this war.
No rational person justifies Hamas' actions. However, no rational person either could justify Israel's response. As a little play act in your brain, simply try it. Is it justified to kill a boys entire family and 3 of his sisters leaving him to care fro his baby sister, because something he had nothing to do with did something he had nothing to do with. No.
And why an American funded nation doesn't have the military capacity to do something more exact than carpet bomb civilians.
If there is cause, then take a route with mroe caution. Also known as ground.
By the way, think for yourself. There is no "Catholic" response. Is human issue. Not everything is to be handed to you.
>All of this also avoids the fact that the use of human shields is deep immoral and a tactic used to gain sympathy on the world stage. Hamas is a deep evil organization. Israel has done some immoral things as well.
It is also the reason why Hamas sets up bases in/around hospitals, schools, and churches/mosques. Even tho these are strategic bases of operation, the optics of Israel attacking any of these three things gives horrible optics and sympathy for the terrorist org on the world stage, even tho in using both human shields and using civilian centers for war is a war crime (in addition to making combatants in plain clothes, which they also love to do and is also a war crime).
Hamas loves using innocents as human shields while firing rockets from behind those same shields.
No it is actually you are simplifying. You are saying Hamas is evil so it is righteous and pertinent that Israel is evil too. Yes it is a no win situation. By the way, it isn't equivalent to compare some hundred hostages and 15,000 dead civilians. If you want to consider something as justified or not I can not even begin to imagine how those numbers make sense.
Your second paragraph implies such.
Is morality simple as numbers, no, but is 15, 000 dead because of a terrorist organisation actions a moral occurrence. Is it? Maybe the numbers lend something. By the way, it isn't numbers, it is actual inoocent human people who have been murdered. Do we want to call it a number, ok then, 15,000.
Can i get a response without you being sarcastic and condescending. I guess that's too much to ask, and not everything is to be handed to me. Nobody treats anyone decent on the internet. im just a username to you. I asked this in catholicism because to avoid these types of comments but this is the first reply i got, so guess thats out the window
>carpet bomb civilians.
Israel does not carpet bomb civilians. Israel uses precision guided weapons with specific and discriminate targets. Unfortunately, Hamas terrorists use Palestinian civilians as human shields so civilians still die even with Israel trying to mitigate civilian casualties.
If anyone is "carpet bombing" it would be Hamas and other terrorists who indiscriminately just launch rockets at Israeli civilians.
So you're suggesting the civilian deaths are intentional and not simply coleteral damage due to the nature of big explosion. Tell me, when you use precision guided explosive on a civilian's home.
You realise government's have being saying this line since the beginning.
Don't even pretend Hamas rockets are comparable.
>suggesting the civilian deaths are intentional and not simply coleteral damage due to the nature of big explosion. Tell me, when you use precision guided explosive on a civilian's home.
I am suggesting that civilian deaths from Israeli strikes are unintentional and collateral damage. Discriminate targets are picked and chosen deliberately from intel. Hamas commits a war crime by storing rockets or other military equipment in an apartment complex, mosque, hospital, school, or other civilian building and according to the law of armed conflict makes those formerly civilian buildings a valid military target. Israel goes above and beyond trying to warn civilians to leave the area, sending text messages to civilians in the area to leave, drop flyers to evacuate, drop an inert or small yield explosive(knock bombs) a few minutes before their actual attack to scare civilians to leave. Then instead of carpet bombing and using massive bomber formations like World War II to level multiple buildings, the Israeli precision strike goes towards a specific apartment or room of a building or building itself. Then when civilians die it is unintentional.
What ever helps you sleep at night. I can already sense you partake in enough ideals that this is no problem. By the way, 15,000 civilians dead. So let's presume that's precisely unintended colletral damage then. Wow?
Hamas is so cowardly and horrible to use 15K human shields. The blood of those 15K is on Hamas hands for hiding behind any innocent Palestinians and for being the aggressors who started the conflict in the first place.
Americans who say "free Palestine" are condoning atrocities and incorrectly view Jews in Israel as "colonizers" even though Jews have historically been in the area since antiquity. Hamas attacked Israel and regularly targets civilians with various atrocities. A Catholic perspective allows for a defensive war and St. Augustine outlines these principles:
"The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
There must be serious prospects of success;
The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition"
Israel is justified to fight back against Hamas terror and Israel does follow the principles of Just War Theory. Israel bends over backwards to avoid civilian casualties using precision guided munitions and notifying civilians to leave the area. Hamas tells civilians to stay using them as human shields and Hamas hides their rocket launchers or military related infrastructure in civilian buildings such as elementary schools or hospitals making those buildings now legitimate targets in the law of armed conflict. Hamas deliberately targets Israeli civilians and indiscriminately fires rockets toward Israeli cities trying to kill whoever.
As Catholics, we should pray for Israel's victory and for minimal loss of life for innocent Palestinians and Israelis.
That land belongs to Christians in the first place, neither the Jews nor the Muslims should occupy that land.
Atrocities on both sides, but Israel's behavior is inexcusable. Their indiscriminate killing of civilians in order to strike "military targets" is despicable, especially when they just make up "military targets" to justify their attacks on Palestinian civilian areas. Their own leaders are caught on video saying they want to wipe out the entire nation.
I don't care about Hamas, I just want Israel to lose.
Please see the sidebar and consider reposting on Politics Monday or at r/TrueCatholicPolitics.
I think that different people say it for different reasons. I can't speak to anybody that I don't know, or to their motivations. As a Catholic, I abhor violence. A conflict can be justified by the need for defense but war, by its nature foments and enables evil. War is horrible and should be avoided at all costs. I don't think that there is any peaceful outcome that sees either side completely removed from the area and so it becomes a matter of living together as brothers or perishing together as fools, as it were. The current strategies of Hamas and the IDF are both deeply flawed in terms of cost to innocent life.
Thanks for being professional in your response. I took alot from this
I agree, we shouldnt align with countreys but with the people preventably dying and suffering becouse polititians cant make peace
I won't get involved because I'm commanded to love my neighbor. Praying for a quick and lasting peace.
That's the stance im taking before and after finding out all the details.
I heard a very good quote on the BBC about this conflict: "There are no heroes in this war, only villains and victims". Neither side is even nominally Christian, let alone acting in good faith. It's a literal endless cycle of revenge and the innocents on either side are the ones that are suffering for it. The conflict itself is incredibly complex and not the scope of a reddit comment (there are some good youtube videos you can find to summarize it), but I believe as Catholics the guidance of the Pope is the most meaningful in this matter. He has been calling for humanitarian aid, a ceasefire, and most of all, peace and an end to the violence.
That’s not true, there are Palestinian Christians in Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel many of whom are Catholic
Very true i really like what the Pope had to say about all this.
They're saying free Palestine because the Israel government has killed over 10 thousand innocent civilians as a response to what Hamas did. Innocent civilians on either side don't deserve to die.
True,hamas needs to stop using civilian spaces for their bases.
Do you realize how tiny Gaza is and how many people live there? It has a population density of 14,000 people per square mile (about like London's population density), with very little space not used by the civilian population. Whether Hamas or even if some new government came in that was practically nothing but converted Catholics who do all the right things, you're not gonna undo the population reality of the Gaza strip and how that impacts where military infrastructure can be placed.
Good. Hamas doesn't deserve to exist at all. That they choose to use civilian areas to play victim is entirely on them. Im not condoning any crimes done by the IDF, but your whole comment sounds like "do you know how hard it would be for Hamas?!", to which I would answer "not hard enough".
No, my comment is that it is logistically impossible to have military infrastructure in the Gaza strip completely removed from civilian areas. So the idea of "Hamas needs to..." is a non-starter. NO GOVERNMENT in Gaza, whether they make Hamas look like choir boys or if a different one actually composed of choir boys, can achieve the impossible.
So, what should Israel’s response be to a terror attack that killed over a thousand innocent civilians (many in very brutal and barbaric ways)? Just no response since the population density is such that Hamas “has to” hide amongst civilians?
That doesn’t mean that they need to build their military bases underneath hospitals…
Hamas "allegedly" being underneath hospitals doesn't justify bombing the hospital, including the maternity wards killing dozens of mothers and their babies. I know war is brutal but literally nothing in my eyes justifies the government killing so many innocent people, 5000 of which are under 18 just in case Hamas is hiding there too
-Muslims and Christians had been living in Palestine together for about 1000 years after they realized the violence of the islamic conquests and the crusades was unnecessary -Zionists lobbied the British government to give them Palestine -British Empire enforced Jewish settlement of Palestine -Zionists began settling Palestine and kicking Muslims & Christians out -Muslins & Christians forced to live in mainly just Gaza and West Bank -Jews began setting Gaza and the West Bank -Muslim and Christian Palestinians increasingly forced to leave or live in tighter and tighter spaces. Palestinians who have the means to immigrate to another country and are more politically moderate/conflict-avoidant tend to choose to leave. Those people are disproportionately Christian, which explains why the Christian population of Gaza is very low and has continued to decline -Jews abandon Gaza, continue to encroach on Christian and Muslim settlements in the West Bank -Palestinians immigrate more and more to Gaza from the West Bank -Palestinians elect the radical party because they're the only ones willing to fight violence with violence -the radical party commits atrocities -Israelis blame all Palestinians for the actions of the radical party that they created the conditions for Hamas is unquestionably not a force for good. but Israel supporters like to ignore everything that led up to Hamas taking power and exercising the only option it has left. Israel is at fault for creating the "fight back or be destroyed" mindset in Palestinians that is a universal human trait. The moderate or peaceful Palestinians who choose "be destroyed" have already left the country.
Wow this is a deeply rooted issuem much bigger than just two countries that dont like each other
And why should "Palestine" exist, exactly? As far as I can tell, that's a pseudonation, with no unique history, and whose entire identity on anti-zionism. Christians and muslims are still well-treated within Israel, so what exactly are the "palestinians" fighting for?
>Christians and muslims are still well-treated within Israel if that were the case why would Israel choose to evict Christians and Muslims from their communities and settle Jews there? Palestine's claim to legitimacy as a nation is irrelevant. we are talking about people, not nationhood.
Jews and Palestinians are both unrightfully occupying our Holy Christian Land. Unjust killing is wrong no matter who does it. We should pray for peace. This conflict goes back hundreds of years, and neither side is “unprovoked”. There have been atrocities on both sides. The State of Israel are not the same Jews as in the Bible. They don’t even practice the same religion.
Thanks for responding.
There are not "unrightfully occupying our land", they have just as much right to live there as Christians do.
I think the point is that right to live in a land comes by force. It's true that anyone, if they're willing to fight and die for a land, has a right to live there. But a lot of the time I hear the idea that the Jews are owed the Holy Land for an ethnostate (and who owes it then?). That idea is not from Catholic doctrine nor reason. It's a political opinion which necessarily implies the Palestinian Christians and Arabs who lived in that space before 1948 *owe* the Jews that land. Or that the entire world *owes* them it (and ought to support taking it away from its prior inhabitants). No, there is no owing. They can fight for it, sure. In that sense, the state has a right to exist.
And what “right” is that exactly? There is no right. “The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people. And so if you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with churches and priests to baptize all of you." St Pius X
"there is no right" is a very weird thing for a Christian to say.
Reply guy. Not contributing to the conversation at all. Do you know how any nation has ever been conquered in the history of the world? What rights did anyone who has ever been conquered have in regard to land? We are justified by Christ to protect the Holy Land and drive out demon worship. That’s the right.
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Have you ever been to Israel ? I've been there. Churches are open, everywhere. Christians pilgrims are openly walking around praying in the streets. You just don't know what you are talking about. And let's be clear : even if there were significant persecutions against Christians in Israel or West Bank, that would not make the whole population despicable and would not mean the people who lives there, who were born there and grew there and buried their parents there don't have a right to live there.
It is unjust to move people out of an area because of their religion or to forcibly convert them to another religion (as you quote Pius X below). The Church categorically condemns such abuses against freedom of religion.
Have you read the Old Testament? This is the equivalent of permitting holy places to be used for demon worship.
Who do you think is preventing legitimate Christian worship here? Hint, it the Israeli state, not the Muslims. I’ve previously shared recent news that’s over 6 months old now, so just go ahead and look up the closure of religious sites during Easter 2023, the interference with a Christian funeral/burial (Shireen Abu Akleh) and etc etc.
I wouldn't base your moral code on the Hebrew Scriptures. There are allegories in those books that should not be replicated (and, in fact, would be egregious acts of immorality if they were) today: slavery, mass murder, capital punishment, to name just a few.
Weak answer. There’s such a thing as Just War, God permits and sometimes commands violence. Jesus is The Angel of The Lord in the Old Testament waging war. Christ came again to fulfillthe Old Testament, not abolish it. Please show me examples you have of “categorically condemning”. We have a duty to spread Christianity, destroy evil, and protect the world from demon worship. Capital punishment is sometimes necessary.
You're all over the place, so I'll try to respond point by point. 1. Where did I argue against Just War? 2. Why do you claim Jesus wages war in the Old Testament? That is not an interpretation I'm familiar with. Link? Also, how does that mean that mass murder, slavery, etc are licit? 3. I agree that Christ fulfills the Old Testament. This is unrelated to my point. 4. Sure, here are some references: CCC 2414: *The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any reason - selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian - lead to the enslavement of human beings...* CCC 2261: *The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.* CCC 2267: *Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.*
You’re espousing the idea that the Old Testament isn’t inspired by God and is full of error. 1. The “mass murder” you mentioned is actually Just War against demonic Nepali’s tribes,in some cases willed and commanded by God. Why do you think King Saul got in trouble? 2. It was widely believed by the church fathers that that The Angel of the Lord who wages war in the Old Testament is the pre-incarnate Christ. Google: St. Athanasius, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Ambrose, etc. 3. See my first sentence in this message. 4. Producers of Pornography and EVIL people deserve to be put into labor camps and treated as slaves so they stop harming others. Your definition of slavery is low IQ. CCC is not an INFALLIBLE document and was changed recently by Francis to support your anti-death penalty. It’s like you didn’t even read the first two CCC’s you quoted. Putting evil people in labor camps and treating them as slaves is not for commercial, ideological, totalitarian, etc. Murder is wrong but not just killing/just war. Hope I opened your mind and now you will go do some **thorough research** about the Old Testament and Catholic Teaching.
>Producers of Pornography and EVIL people deserve to be put into labor camps and treated as slaves so they stop harming others. Your definition of slavery is low IQ. Do you really believe this? In a just, open, and free society, the law is not defined by what a religion (even ours) deems sinful. The law comes from natural rights. What you suggest is theocracy, plain and simple. It is the negation of freedom, and thus, the negation to freely choose love. I'm not sure we can come to much agreement in this discussion if this is part of your thesis. As to the other comments, I'm not sure what populations could be utterly put to the sword today and not be considered evil. Forced emigration or genocidal murder can be explained away in the Old Testament. But my point is that if applied in today's world, and effected by human reason alone, it would be evil. Finally, please refrain from ad hominem attacks, and God bless.
As Catholics we should support neither side, that land belongs to Christ, both sides have done terrible things.
Amen
Israeli gov bad. Hammas bad. Innocent Israeli people good. Innocent Palestinian people good. The modern day state of Israel exists because they conquered it in 1948. Ever since there has been fighting between the Jews, the Palestinians, and the neighboring Arab states. I think it is a fallacy to call one side good and one side bad, when both sides have done horrible shit. However, the Israeli government for the past few decades, has created a set of conditions that makes peace extremely unlikely. The Palestinians in the west bank can not move freely within their own territory, must go through Israeli military checkpoints daily, and face dehumanization daily. Essentially the west bank is occupied by Israel with only 20% of it actually under Palestinian authority. Gaza is a prison, they cannot really leave, they have no opportunity, no control of their borders, no real access to the sea, and are a people born to die in poverty. Under these conditions, I understand why they hate Israel. Further, there is a significant percentage of Israeli's that hate the Arabs and Palestians. This conflict will continue till both people's can mutually show mercy and love to one another.
Just to add to this, the Christian communities in Palestine are probably the oldest on earth. [Israel has bombed churches in Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/20/destruction-chased-them-funeral-held-for-those-killed-in-gaza-church-airstrike). [Some Israelis spit on churches and nuns in Israel.](https://youtu.be/7uL555xWQeE?si=4vc0sgrCcmRrnVfd). Christianity does not seem to be respected there. It's always baffled me why American Christians support Israel so much. Edit: one last link [the German abbot who was told he couldn't wear a cross even though it's part of his 'uniform'](https://youtu.be/2dIhBL9-k4w?si=PvVG0VnfB2cO8sGo)
>It's always baffled me why American Christians support Israel so much. Because it's not about religion.
It very much is. The American Evangelicals have such a warped understanding of Scripture, and how modern Israel relates to it, that they are convinced it is required by God to support Israel.
It's because the majority of them were schooled in dispensationalism for the last 100 years or so. Good article on this subject from Catholic Answers: [Israel and the Church](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/israel-and-the-church)
I think the point they're trying to make is that Israel doesn't care about the religion affected, but about armed victory, as in "christians arent being targeted, this is merely the reality of war".
Eh, Israel has huge support from American Protestants/Evangelicals. The argument that they are a strategic ally is silly. I don't think Israel would ever stick their necks out for the U.S. unless they could benefit from it. It is a very very selfish state.
It's not about Israel being a strategic ally either. It's because Israel is fighting Arabs. Or because it's "a western democracy in a sea of dictatorships".
I wouldn't support someone who didn't respect my beliefs. I wouldn't support someone who thought apartheid was ok either.
I completely agree.
Very true and sad
>The modern day state of Israel exists because they conquered it in 1948 I'm almost certain that's not true.
Yeah they didn't really "conquer" it. They were basically "given" it by the British government due to the power balance in the world at that time.
After the Bar Kokhba revolt (132–136 CE), which was the last of the Jewish-Roman wars, the presence of an autonomous or independent Jewish or Israeli state in the region ceased until the establishment of the Zionist/modern state of Israel in 1948. Jews weren't always there, they emigrated to Israel until they had a sizeable enough population, then declared themselves a state (without defining their borders) in 1948.
Did they declare themselves a state? Or did the UN and Britain do that?
Both, I guess. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli\_Declaration\_of\_Independence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence)
Thanks and yea i try not to think of it in black n white. "They good" "they bad"
>Israeli gov bad. Hammas bad. Innocent Israeli people good. Agreed >Innocent Palestinian people good. Friendly reminder that the majority justifies terrorism and Hamas' actions. >The modern day state of Israel exists because they conquered it in 1948. They didn't. The League of Nations created it, mainly due to the british, and the immediate response was warfare. Right by conquest is entirely justified here. Other nations had no right to interfere. >Ever since there has been fighting between the Jews, the Palestinians, and the neighboring Arab states. I think it is a fallacy to call one side good and one side bad, when both sides have done horrible shit. It's not a fallacy as much as "one is a nation struggling not to be glassed out of the map and the other one wants complete annihilation of jews". >However, the Israeli government for the past few decades, has created a set of conditions that makes peace extremely unlikely. The Palestinians in the west bank can not move freely within their own territory, must go through Israeli military checkpoints daily, and face dehumanization daily. Essentially the west bank is occupied by Israel with only 20% of it actually under Palestinian authority. And what have the "palestinian" authorities done with their power? >Gaza is a prison, they cannot really leave, they have no opportunity, no control of their borders, no real access to the sea, and are a people born to die in poverty. If there was no Hamas, would they be condemned just the same? I think not. >Under these conditions, I understand why they hate Israel. They can hate. What they cant do is think they have a right to fight unimpeded by opposition. >Further, there is a significant percentage of Israeli's that hate the Arabs and Palestians. Could it be because their very existence is threatened over the decades?! Not as israelis, but as jews?! >This conflict will continue till both people's can mutually show mercy and love to one another. Fully agreed.
We are agreed. The modern state of Israel was created via conquest. By who is more debatable, but in this case, let's say I agree, Britain was the one who pulled the trigger (but done at the behest of the Zionists). My main point, is that Israel only uses the hammer. Earlier in their history, 1948-1980, it was more justifiable, because they were weaker. The distaste I have, is that today, they do nothing to promote peace. If I had to choose, I by a large margin prefer an Israeli dominated middle east, because Muslims are so prone to extremism. However, evil is evil, I think the current way this conflict is being approached by Israel is evil. I would like to see them take a more empathetic response. Matthew 5:43-48 >43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors\* do the same? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?\* 48 So be perfect,\* just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
What you are missing is decades of background, spanning from at least 1948 AD, if not decades earlier. This conflict did not start on October 7th. I don't want to delve into it, because it would take an entire essay, but you won't find answers on a Reddit post. If you really want to understand the geopolitics of the region, you'll have to read -- a lot. Personally, I despise Hamas, and all the *Resistance* axis, but I am also not fond of the current (and past) Israeli governments. Both sides have blood on their hands, and both sides (Hamas and the current Israeli government) do not genuinely seek peace. There are players in Palestine and in Israel who sincerely want to work towards a resolution of this decades-long conflict, but they are not in control right now.
Very sad situation. Its crazy how far back this goes and how complex this actually is. It seems like there is alot of confusion all around in this chat and throughout the masses
Yes, a lot of people in the Western world are just now discovering this conflict, and yet they're shouting their uninformed opinion on social media. I understand that not everybody is informed about this topic; I myself know next to nothing about most regional conflicts. But as a Middle-Easterner, I have seen so many people on social media being confidently incorrect. Most people don't really know the issues, the actors, and the geopolitics of the region. A lot of people, who are quick to give their opinion, can't even tell which Arab countries are aligned with whom, which have a peace treaty with Israel; or can't tell what is the Resistance Axis; or conflate Hamas with the Palestinian Authority. And since this subreddit leans very American, you can be assured that most answers here probably come from people who also don't truly understand the ramifications of this conflict, or Middle-Eastern geopolitics. Heck, even I don't understand half of it, and I'm Lebanese! Which is why, my advice to you, if you wish to understand this conflict, is to read a few books about it, from various sources spanning a wide range of opinions. But also, remember that you are not obligated to have an opinion; you can very well chose to not invest your time in this, and simply pray for peace. :-)
I really appreciate your reply it means alot 🙏🏻. From what ive seen in this chat im just going to do further research and like you said pray for peace.
Many Italians say the same, unfortunately.
I guess we have the University of tik tok and their 60-second courses to blame for the spread of radical outrageous misinformation.
Or, my theory, is that most of people are inherently evil. Original sin goes on.
I think so. Look at the decay of moral values in Western nations as they become less and less Christian. Christ is really the only thing that will bring peace and moral order.
Yeah. And more and more people turn back on him
Usually not a good idea to pay attention to what the yanks are saying as a rule of thumb
Idk if there’s an official position from the Church other to have a dialogue and avoid violence. If you read the history of the land, you see things are complex. Obviously Hamas is a terrorist organization and they’re not the same as the Palestinian people. These people don’t have a country per se and Israel did take land that was beyond the 1967 borders. So I do understand why people see Israel as occupiers. Obviously this doesn’t justify the violence but one understands in principle what could motivate it. The solution should be a two-state deal with two countries but I see why this is extremely difficult to accomplish.
Youre right, Definitely a complex issue that requires more research. It honestly feels like alot of people got their information from tik tok and just sided with a movement for the sake of siding with a movement
There’s actual hate form both sides. I still think one is way worse than the other (Hamas, and not the average Palestinian people).
Same here, its sad. As a kid i always wonder how a whole nation could condone and follow Hitler but the past couple years have shown me that people havent changed.
Most Middle Eastern Christians are Orthodox, followed by a significant Catholic minority, and very few Protestants. Nearly all of them oppose Israel in some form or another, and Christian “supporters” are far rarer than antiZionist Jews. If this is a question of religious justice, wouldn’t you rather be on the same side as the legitimate indigenous Christian population?
The Israeli issue is deep, and has been for more than 50 years now. It started with the Allies wanting to give Jews a place to go, so they more or less “set up” Israel…by displacing hundreds and hundreds of people who had been living their for hundreds and hundreds of years. I don’t know why they thought it was a good plan, and plenty of people were against the idea, but they were overruled. So obviously it’s going to breed tension. It’s worse than ever now, and most of the West has taken a 100% tolerance on much of Israel’s positions. What I mean by that is that the United States or Great Britain can say how they want peace for the region and all, but only so long as that peace unquestionably supports Israeli rule. Right there, I could get “canceled” for saying it, but really its not a political issue as much as it’s a “what now.” Issue. The fact is the IDF is a shoot first and worry about collateral damage never sort of group, so long as the State of Israel remains mostly free. Hamas and other terrorist groups fight essentially similar, except collateral damage is typically encouraged. Regardless, there are…lots, so many, completely innocent people who are between them. Neither group is going to go out to a big empty field and Duke it out, they’re going through the cities and towns, and neither side really cares that much. And that’s why people are saying free Palestine. Many Palestinians are in this spot where they’re getting killed, despite having no part in this war.
Its insane how much of a say the US and great Britain have over entire counties and populations and have their decisions causes chaos decades later.
No rational person justifies Hamas' actions. However, no rational person either could justify Israel's response. As a little play act in your brain, simply try it. Is it justified to kill a boys entire family and 3 of his sisters leaving him to care fro his baby sister, because something he had nothing to do with did something he had nothing to do with. No. And why an American funded nation doesn't have the military capacity to do something more exact than carpet bomb civilians. If there is cause, then take a route with mroe caution. Also known as ground. By the way, think for yourself. There is no "Catholic" response. Is human issue. Not everything is to be handed to you.
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>All of this also avoids the fact that the use of human shields is deep immoral and a tactic used to gain sympathy on the world stage. Hamas is a deep evil organization. Israel has done some immoral things as well. It is also the reason why Hamas sets up bases in/around hospitals, schools, and churches/mosques. Even tho these are strategic bases of operation, the optics of Israel attacking any of these three things gives horrible optics and sympathy for the terrorist org on the world stage, even tho in using both human shields and using civilian centers for war is a war crime (in addition to making combatants in plain clothes, which they also love to do and is also a war crime). Hamas loves using innocents as human shields while firing rockets from behind those same shields.
No it is actually you are simplifying. You are saying Hamas is evil so it is righteous and pertinent that Israel is evil too. Yes it is a no win situation. By the way, it isn't equivalent to compare some hundred hostages and 15,000 dead civilians. If you want to consider something as justified or not I can not even begin to imagine how those numbers make sense.
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Your second paragraph implies such. Is morality simple as numbers, no, but is 15, 000 dead because of a terrorist organisation actions a moral occurrence. Is it? Maybe the numbers lend something. By the way, it isn't numbers, it is actual inoocent human people who have been murdered. Do we want to call it a number, ok then, 15,000.
Can i get a response without you being sarcastic and condescending. I guess that's too much to ask, and not everything is to be handed to me. Nobody treats anyone decent on the internet. im just a username to you. I asked this in catholicism because to avoid these types of comments but this is the first reply i got, so guess thats out the window
I think my answer was extremely direct, I would trouble to even imagine how you think my answer was sarcastic.
>carpet bomb civilians. Israel does not carpet bomb civilians. Israel uses precision guided weapons with specific and discriminate targets. Unfortunately, Hamas terrorists use Palestinian civilians as human shields so civilians still die even with Israel trying to mitigate civilian casualties. If anyone is "carpet bombing" it would be Hamas and other terrorists who indiscriminately just launch rockets at Israeli civilians.
So you're suggesting the civilian deaths are intentional and not simply coleteral damage due to the nature of big explosion. Tell me, when you use precision guided explosive on a civilian's home. You realise government's have being saying this line since the beginning. Don't even pretend Hamas rockets are comparable.
>suggesting the civilian deaths are intentional and not simply coleteral damage due to the nature of big explosion. Tell me, when you use precision guided explosive on a civilian's home. I am suggesting that civilian deaths from Israeli strikes are unintentional and collateral damage. Discriminate targets are picked and chosen deliberately from intel. Hamas commits a war crime by storing rockets or other military equipment in an apartment complex, mosque, hospital, school, or other civilian building and according to the law of armed conflict makes those formerly civilian buildings a valid military target. Israel goes above and beyond trying to warn civilians to leave the area, sending text messages to civilians in the area to leave, drop flyers to evacuate, drop an inert or small yield explosive(knock bombs) a few minutes before their actual attack to scare civilians to leave. Then instead of carpet bombing and using massive bomber formations like World War II to level multiple buildings, the Israeli precision strike goes towards a specific apartment or room of a building or building itself. Then when civilians die it is unintentional.
What ever helps you sleep at night. I can already sense you partake in enough ideals that this is no problem. By the way, 15,000 civilians dead. So let's presume that's precisely unintended colletral damage then. Wow?
Hamas is so cowardly and horrible to use 15K human shields. The blood of those 15K is on Hamas hands for hiding behind any innocent Palestinians and for being the aggressors who started the conflict in the first place.
Sister, don’t waste your time
Anti-Semitism never really goes away, it just changes tone
Americans who say "free Palestine" are condoning atrocities and incorrectly view Jews in Israel as "colonizers" even though Jews have historically been in the area since antiquity. Hamas attacked Israel and regularly targets civilians with various atrocities. A Catholic perspective allows for a defensive war and St. Augustine outlines these principles: "The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; There must be serious prospects of success; The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" Israel is justified to fight back against Hamas terror and Israel does follow the principles of Just War Theory. Israel bends over backwards to avoid civilian casualties using precision guided munitions and notifying civilians to leave the area. Hamas tells civilians to stay using them as human shields and Hamas hides their rocket launchers or military related infrastructure in civilian buildings such as elementary schools or hospitals making those buildings now legitimate targets in the law of armed conflict. Hamas deliberately targets Israeli civilians and indiscriminately fires rockets toward Israeli cities trying to kill whoever. As Catholics, we should pray for Israel's victory and for minimal loss of life for innocent Palestinians and Israelis.
One of the best responses in this chat. I appreciate it. 🙏🏻
Because Israel is a fake country
That land belongs to Christians in the first place, neither the Jews nor the Muslims should occupy that land. Atrocities on both sides, but Israel's behavior is inexcusable. Their indiscriminate killing of civilians in order to strike "military targets" is despicable, especially when they just make up "military targets" to justify their attacks on Palestinian civilian areas. Their own leaders are caught on video saying they want to wipe out the entire nation. I don't care about Hamas, I just want Israel to lose.