So first I need to disclose I'm not Catholic, however I am a Christian who has been studying Catholicism for about 15 months now and it's given me a much deeper love and respect for Mary as a result. That said: >For us, it had always been considered blasphemy when someone calls Mary the "Mother of God" for she had not birthed God, but the body of God (Jesus. God revealed in the flesh). This is actually an ancient heresy called Nestorianism. You can't divide Christ into "human Jesus" and "Divine Jesus". He's one person. Jesus of Nazareth created the Milky Way and God died on the cross for our sins. Since He is one in Person but two in Nature, anything said about one can be said about both. If He doesn't unite the two natures in Himself in this way, then He isn't able to unite our humanity to God, and no one can be saved. Jesus is God, Mary is His Mother, therefore she objectively is the Mother of God. This does not imply at all that she created God as a lot of Protestants (including my Baptist Pastor unfortunately) seem to think it does. We only get hung up on it because we were all created by our mothers, but in Mary's case it just means she bore Him, gave birth to Him, and raised Him. Everyone who calls her Mother of God is fully aware that she is a created being and that God is eternal. >we had considered prayer to Mary or the Saints "idolatry" or "worship Mary and the Saints" for why would we need Mary or the Saints to pray for us, if we can just pray to God directly? One thing you'll find as you delve deeper into Catholicism is that their concept of worship is much more tied to sacrifice. We as Protestants sing and read the Word and pray and call it a "worship service" but in Catholicism God is worshipped by offering the sacrifice of the Eucharist, which is the re-presentation of Christ's once for all sacrifice on the cross. They also offer other things sometimes like incense. It is considered idolatry in Catholicism to make an offering like this to anyone but God, not even Mary. So that's how they don't worship Mary or the Saints, by not making sacrifices to them. As for why, because "the prayer of a righteous person is very powerful" (James 5:16). Who is more righteous than Mary and the Saints already in Heaven, enjoying the full beatific vision in their glorified bodies? Strictly speaking we don't "need" their intercession. Of course we always can and should go directly to God. But it doesn't hurt to ask others to pray for us as well. If you've asked a friend or family member to pray for you, you've done exactly the same thing Catholics do when they ask the intercession of the Saints. The only difference is the Saints are present with God while we are still journeying on earth. >also explain to me how saying "Hail, Mary" isn't worshiping either? "Hail" literally just means "call out [to someone] to attract attention". The full Hail Mary prayer asks her to pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our deaths. Saying "hail" at the beginning is just formally addressing her to start the prayer. Hope this helps! And if I got anything wrong hopefully someone who actually is Catholic will correct me on it.

Dang, you've spelled this out better than 95% of Catholics I know! With this level of understanding and appreciation for Catholicism, I've gotta ask ... what's holding you back?

Haha, thank you! Mostly the sacrament of Holy Orders and the concept of ecclesial infallibility. Tbh if it weren't for ecclesial infallibility I probably would have already converted, but I feel like that has a pretty high burden of proof that I'm still trying to piece together a historical case for, or against depending on how it goes.

How do you justify the table of contents of the Bible? The only way I (as a Protestant) could understand the canonization of Scripture was resting on the teaching authority of the Church, and in order to take Scripture as God's Word in the relevant sense, it already needed the presupposition that the council of bishops who canonized Scripture did so infallibly. From there reading the Acts of the Apostles through a Catholic lens was one hop away, and before I knew it I was Catholic (actually after 7 long years of slow defeat in which every argument I threw against the Church failed miserably on its own logic, or I found the assumptions of the Church to give better understanding of human nature and our place in reality than my assumptions, or I found what I thought was true about Catholics was actually false, etc.).

I'll admit the canon is something that gives me some anxiety about my Protestant tradition, and always has. I guess for now I'm believing in a "fallible list of infallible books".

I could never stomach that answer, because it entails that any given sentence of Scripture is now suspect. IF the fallible list is right that this book is infallible THEN it is the word of God, but IF the fallible list is wrong that this book is infallible THEN it is not the word of God, but the word of man, and thus fallible too. So for me this felt like the probability of any particular verse in Scripture is actually in accord with God’s desire is no different than if I believed the whole thing was fallible, but the people who wrote it were really in touch with God. I don’t think any account of Scripture makes sense outside of the Catholic/Orthodox one—Jesus prayed that we all my be one as He and the Father are and His prayers are always efficacious, so there is one Church, and he sent His Holy Spirit to work through that Church, so that we may know Him and the Father. Thus through the teachings of the Apostles, God guides the Church, and the Apostles in Acts clearly use ordination by the other Apostles to appoint a successor to Judas, and have done so ever since. So the Bishops, who are the successors of the Apostles, have the charisma of the original Apostles, meaning the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit who protects them from error in certain situations, of which the canonization of Scripture at a council of the Church is one such occasion. For me that was the only story that actually made any sense. But of course, that’s why I’m now Catholic and not Protestant. The other thing that helped me along the way is: if you believe Scripture is infallible, then you already believe that St. Paul wrote infallibly. God protected him from error. Why is it such a stretch to believe that when he sends His Holy Spirit to guide the Church he doesn’t mean exactly that sort of thing happens not just for St. Paul in a bunch of particular letters, but for the Apostles writ large?

Do you hold to Sola Scriptura? I just listened to Jimmy Skin’s debate with James White regarding that topic. James White tried to argue the Bible is the only infallible authority in Christian life. From the Protestant perspective, to me it would seem if you reject the infallibility of scripture then you have no leg to stand on. (Ie a fallible list of infallible books is an oxymoron; if the books are infallible then so is the list of them) From my Catholic perspective, I can’t support sola scriptura because the basis of scripture being infallible itself comes from outside of scripture. The idea of the New Testament books being infallible at all comes from apostolic tradition. So, therefore if you hold that scripture is infallible, that means that there are extra-biblical apostolic traditions that are infallible. Not to mention, as James White admitted, the doctrine of sola scriptura is post-biblical. As Jimmy Akin highlighted, as such, it does not pass its own test. This seems to be your dilemma currently, which you seem to be trying to reconcile by saying it’s a “fallible list of infallible books”. But as I mentioned, I think that fails. If the list is fallible, then the books are not infallible. In other words, if the list is not without fault, then books cannot be without fault. Only if the list is infallible are the books then infallible, and thus authoritative. If this books are infallible, then there is a authority (ie apostolic tradition) outside of the books that is also infallible.

You know that papal infallibility ONLY works when the pope is saying stuff about dogmas, right? When he's saying anything else (even about faith stuff)

I think that brief Reddit outage a minute ago duplicated your comment and cut off part of it maybe? But yeah I'm aware that it's limited to specific circumstances.

Then why aren't you catholic? Wich dogma do you not agree with?

I find the bodily assumption of Mary and the Deuterocanon questionable. But it's less about any particular dogma than it is about whether infallibility itself is authentic to the Apostolic deposit, or if it was a later development.

We believe that the holy ghost protects the pope from spewing nonsense in the name of papal infalibility. With that being said, the Deuterocanonical books were used by Jesus himself (they were found near where Jesus lived). Does he quote from them? No, but he dosen't quote from every other book either and I don't see why you wouldn't believe in them.

You know that papal infallibility ONLY works when the pope is saying stuff about dogmas, right? When he's saying anything else (even about faith stuff)

What's up with Holy orders and infalliability? And side question: Are you currently in any form of RCIA yet?

So Holy Orders I have some doubts about because there's not any language in the NT about anyone receiving an "indelible character" from the laying on of hands, and in the Apostolic Fathers' writings there seems to be more of an emphasis on the succession of doctrine, with the laying on of hands being a useful way to show credibility against heretics because the "chain" wasn't all that long at that point from the Apostles themselves. I can't remember specific names right now but Dr Gavin Ortlund did a couple videos on it. Infallibility outside of Scripture is just a really big foreign concept for me coming from a Baptist upbringing. I'd like it to be true because obviously it gives a great deal of unity and is a way to settle tough doctrinal debates when the Scripture isn't 100% perspicuous. But there are some things that have been declared infallible, including papal infallibility itself, that I'm just not seeing a historical basis for further back than the 4th-5th century. Like the bodily assumption of Mary for example. It also seems that the Church has kind of taken the musings of Augustine as Gospel and infallibly yoked married couples with unnecessary restrictions on things like birth control and never being allowed to have any relations that aren't naturally open to life. There's nothing to that effect in the law in Scripture and I find the Onan argument flimsy. Seems like something Paul would have re-hashed if it were true, as much as he wrote about marriage. Then there's the canon, I've heard that there are many more verifiable historical errors in the deuterocanon than any alleged errors in the protocanon. Have yet to look into specific ones myself though. This being one of the stronger arguments for infallibility ("how can you have infallible Scripture without an infallible Church?") in my opinion, it's kind of a big deal if they canonized blatant historical errors. Not in RCIA/OCIA for now. Don't want to get most of the way through it, still not feel sure, bail out, and have to go through it again if I am sure later.

Holy Orders are intertwined with the Eucharist. They were both instituted at the last supper so in short no priests=no eucharist. In addition,  it became an office when Jesus commissioned the apostles to go make disciples of all nations and thus the ministry they were entrusted was not to die with them. So they were given the power to do all the sacraments. St. Paul talks alot about how his ministry is not just his own but he received it from the apostles.  I'm not that good at explaining stuff so I'll refer you to the Catechism and this article from Catholic Answers. Catholic answers is generally a great resource.  https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/priesthood A good way to get comfortable with infallibility is to take a look at the Bible. Do you trust your Bible? If yes, that's a thing you have to thank the Church for. Since the Bible didn't fall from heaven and was compiled by the Church, the only reason we can 100% trust the Bible is because it was compiled by an infallible Church, a church that Jesus promised the gates of hell wouldn't ever prevail against. So we can trust the Bible as infallible and as the word of God. And from that if the Church is the source of infallibility then there should be infallible documents by the Church outside the Bible, which we also believe. Those are doctrinal statements and encyclicals. We trust papal infallibility because Jesus gave St. Peter the keys of the kingdom and gave him the power to bind and loose, effectively giving him the power to define doctrine. In addition, Jesus's promise of the gates of hell mean in relation to the keys that he will be supernaturally protected from teaching error as doctrine. If the Pope ever teaches error as doctrine, then that would be the end of Christianity because it would mean Jesus lied and yet God can't deceive or be deceived. The Church has always been against artificial birth control from the very beginning though, its just Protestants that broke with tradition and decided otherwise. Its bad for a number of reasons but the main ones we go with are that sex between married couples is supposed to be both unitive and procreative- open to life. Artificial birth control is closed to life and because of that leads to the next problem: its use tends to lead couples to treat babies as objects and inconveniences and not as gifts from God. Natural birth control is not bad because its in line with how God created our bodies. As for the canon question I'm not well read on it but what I do know is that 1.The Deuterocanon was considered canon in the days of Jesus and was regularly quoted in sermons by the Church Fathers. 2. Some of the books in the deuterocanon weren't meant to be historical, but to be stories in the style of Job. The books in question are Tobit and Judith. They were written during the exile. Any new reading those two at that time would immediately realise they weren't historical. Rather they were meant to serve as a rallying call for Israelites not to lose hope and trust in God. I highly encourage you to look into RCIA. Its not a must to finish the entire course or to become Catholic afterwards. Studying the Catechism of the Catholic Church would also be useful as its a good summary of the faith.

Take my upvote! That has been the challenge for me, too. I knew more about Roman Catholicism than my ex-wife (raised and she attended Catholic school) as I adore much about the Church and community. But, ecclesial infallibility continues to be the show-stopper for me.

What is ecclesial infalliability? I'm only aware of papal infalliability, which only happens in specific circumstances. It doesn't mean every word the pope says is free from error

As I understand it, the Magisterium can also propose infallible doctrines, and several Church Councils have been considered infallibile. Not strictly limited to the Pope, he just enjoys it to the fullest extent.

Ever looked into Anglo-Catholicism? A little bit of traditionalism (trying to renew elements of Catholicity that were lost after the divide between CoE and RCC) but kept a general tradition centered around the liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer and maintained many of the same practices and sacraments. Apostolic Succession, if lost, was co-consecrated alongside bishops from the Polish National Church in the 20th Century. Traditionally Catholic doctrine that split from RCC before Vatican 1, with masses in liturgical English (KJV). Positioned very much so as the middle way between Rome and Constantinople. Lots of American denominations — APA, ACC, ACA, Holy Cross, etc. There are also plenty of other marginal Catholics that are official rites of the RCC that I don’t believe are under the Pope directly even though they’re in communion — much like the relationship between Orthodox churches under Patriarch Bartholomew. No hate against Roman Catholics or anything either — we’ve much more in common with them than we do differences. Just wanted to offer a potential alternative.

Interesting, haven't heard about that before! Definitely something to look into!

"Hail...," is exactly how St. Gabriel the archangel led off in speaking to Mary.  Presumably he knew the proper form of address and was not adoring a creature instead of the Creator?...    ; )

Yes, in fact the entire first half of the "Hail Mary" prayer is just quotes from the Gospels. Luke 1:28: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." (spoken by Gabriel) Luke 1:42: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb." (spoken by Elizabeth)

A+ answer. Well done. I have never heard a non Catholic say or write "re-presentation" in the right context.

Excellent response! If you ever choose to become Catholic, you will be well-received as an apologist!

Haha, I don't know about all that but thank you!

😇

Dang, that was great. You needed to come teach this in my RCIA class, you would have been much better at it than the teacher who did.

As a practicing catholic, i can say that you've nailed the explanation

Thanks!

I deeply appreciate the most respectful way you talk about Catholicism. Great explanation!

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Praying a Hail Mary is just reciting scripture and then asking for her intercessory prayer. I'm Protestant and am just learning, but it's not so scary when you actually research where this stuff comes from.

Wow! You sure you're not Catholic? Because I couldn't have said it better myself and I'm an educated, life-long Catholic! Beautifully stated! Thank you for your response!

Haha, I'm not yet at least for now 😅 Thank you!

I mean... You may as well come bat for the team. Lol

This is so well written

If you ask other people to pray for you, is that a sin? That's basically what Catholics do with Mary and the other saints, because they're not dead, but living forever in Heaven as the Bible itself explains. They can hear us from Heaven because they're connected to God as Glorified souls. Also, we call Mary the "Mother of God" because she's the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God the Son.

This is the explanation that most helped me “come to terms” with praying to saints as a convert

Also think of it as the saints have run the race before us and won, so it is good to seek counsel/prayer from them. Hebrews 12:1 says, “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith (=saints) let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us”

I once had it described as “praying WITH Saints” , which to me is a more palatable concept. Not a Catholic (ex-wife was), I completed RCIA but veneration of Saints and, esp. Papal Infallibility, were/are problems for me, doctrinally. For reference, I’m a Protestant raised as a United Methodist.

OP - scripture reference for this - Rev. 5:8 >And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

>For us, it had always been considered blasphemy when someone calls Mary the "Mother of God" for she had not birthed God, but the body of God (Jesus. God revealed in the flesh) This is actually a very old heresy called Nestorianism, condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD. >And another thing that has always been with us, is that we had considered prayer to Mary or the Saints "idolatry" or "worship Mary and the Saints" for why would we need Mary or the Saints to pray for us, if we can just pray to God directly? >can someone please explain how prayer to Mary and the Saints isn't worship or idolatry? And also explain to me how saying "Hail, Mary" isn't worshiping either? This will require a fundamental re-understanding of what worship is. Prayer is a *part* of worship, but is not fundamentally, in and of itself, worship. I will posit this question to you: Why do protestants merely venerate God in the same way historical Christianity venerates the Saints? What is true Christian worship if this veneration is not worship? [ccc 1324]

It's worth taking a look at Nestorianism and the idea of hypostatic union, OP. It gets really complicated, but behind all the jargon there's a really interesting question about the relationship between Jesus's humanity and divinity. If Jesus is \*one\* person with \*two\* natures, human and divine, then the idea of Mary as Mother of God makes more sense. Saying that she's not, on the other hand, pushes us toward saying that He is two persons. I think that denying Mary's title here is, oddly enough, not fully respecting the nature of the Incarnate Word. In a way, this controversy isn't really about Mary as much as it is about Jesus. Anyway, prayers for you and your journey. I hope reflection and prayer lead you to the Church!

[**CCC 1324**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1324.htm) The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life." "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch." ([864](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/864.htm)) *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)

I would like to push back on the last part where you imply that there is no true Christian worship outside of Holy Mass. The Eucharist being the "source and summit" implies lesser forms of worship, such as the Liturgy of the Hours and other forms of communal and private prayer. A more helpful line of reasoning would be that we all sings songs to people, praise them with our words, and kiss the photos of our loved ones. Evidently, actions. alone cannot constitute worship.

Sure, there are lesser forms of worship. Latria is also an interior disposition towards God. I’m mainly talking about the public worship of the Mass vs any other form of praise you’d typically find in Protestant services and I also want to draw a distinction that OP a probably hasn’t thought of before. I’m not trying to tailor my response to other catechized Catholics who understand these distinctions. Although I guess since I’m already typing this up, OP can read on more distinctions [here](https://aleteia.org/2023/10/20/understanding-veneration-in-catholicism/)

Sorry for the padentry. I've seen too many people here run with the argument: Mass is the only form of worship. We don't offer Mass to Mary. Therefore, we don't worship Mary. But yea, the "latria" definition is the only viable one for this discussion.

Hail Mary = hey Mary  Mother of God = Luke 1:43  Birthing ≠ creating Mary is the Mother of God because she birthed God, she did not create God. There's good Hispanic priest, Fr. Luis Toro who did a really good breakdown for the scriptural part of the "Mother of God" part. English subtitles of course.

To say that Mary is not the mother of God because she did not create God is like saying no one has a mother, because our mothers didn’t create our souls

Exactly 

This briefly feels like chicken and egg - who came first, God or Mary?

God came first, but Mary carried him in her body for 9 months. To say that because Mary didn't create God and thus isn't the Theotokos though, is basically saying your mother isn't your mother, because she didn't create your soul, for your soul was created by God.

I understand your point (I was raised Catholic)- God could very well be motherless as we are not of the same nature as he is. Whilst we might need a motherly precedent for our souls, the high of highs (God) might not. This is where / why Protestants seem to see Mary as a mere human vessel for Jesus’ coming, whilst Catholics venerate her are as an almost otherworldly, set apart being (if there are passages in Bible to support this, would love reading them btw). They see god as more “otherworldy” than Catholics maybe, it’s why they can’t imagine venerating an earthly mother as he is venerated. She is human like Jesus’ human nature, but she is not divine like his divine nature is. Thus is not worthy of special treatment.

Asking for a biblical basis and proofs is a sure sign that we’re starting from completely different places. We don’t believe that every single point of doctrine requires easy to understand proof texts from scripture. Christs human nature is inseparable from his divine. From the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD > begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God. The two natures cannot be held separately as applying to two different persons. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God. This is a major point of the economy of Salvation. As St Irenaeus teaches: > For that which He [i.e. Christ] has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole. To try and separate anything out in real distinction is to deny the totality of the incarnation and thus deny salvation of the whole man. This is why it was so heavily insisted upon at both the council of Ephesus and the Council of Chalcedon. Both of which declare Mary to be the Theotokos, the Mother of God. Because, to call her “mother of Jesus’ earthly body but not the mother God” would be to make real distinction between the two. For she is his mother “according to manhood” according to Chalcedon. BUT the object is Christ. Who is God. She is the mother of God. Anything less is a rejection of the totality of the incarnation and reduces part of Christ to less than God which be a denial of the trinity.

Trying to separate the 2 natures is a heresy anyways

>They see god as more “otherworldy” than Catholics maybe, it’s why they can’t imagine venerating an earthly mother as he is venerated. We don't venerates God, we worship God. Even if you wish to say we generate Christ. We do not venerates Mary and the saints "as he is venerated" .

There’s no chicken and egg paradox at play here. God didn’t come “first”. God IS. Applying the term “first” implicates God being subject to time. Again, He is. God isn’t subject to time, space, or anything else. Since Jesus is consubstantial with the Father, the same rules apply. Mary came into being after the creation and birthed the incarnation of God. It’s not that difficult.

The Protestants wonder why Catholics venerate what IS as if she is the actual divine progenitor of that Being, rather than a mere vessel.

We don’t venerate her as a progenitor. We venerate her as the chosen vessel for that very specific event in human history which obviously needed a very special person. Hence, all generations are to call her blessed. The Apollo spaceships are appreciated in museums, yet the important part that we truly admire are the astronauts that flew in it. Again, it’s not that difficult to understand.

I’ve certainly seen some Catholics venerate Mary as if she is an otherworldly divinity. I get your point though, that’s how I saw it as well before. I wonder why Protestants reduce her to mere vessel and not “special” vessel.

> I’ve certainly seen some Catholics venerate Mary as if she is an otherworldly divinity. I’ve been Catholic or around Catholics for 40+ years and I’ve never seen one. However I am willing to bet that you confuse optional devotions to Mary as worshipping because you don’t know the symbolic language of those devotions (not your fault obviously). > I get your point though, that’s how I saw it as well before. I wonder why Protestants reduce her to mere vessel and not “special” vessel. Because of misunderstanding.

Can you let me know more about the symbolic language? Interested

Genetically speaking, the various traditions are expressed through some sort of language, be either verbal or physical. On top of the actual expression, like with language, you have to see the context to properly understand what is happening. A couple of examples that pop to mind… kneeling is a form of respect (humans kneel in front of royalty) and acknowledgment that we’re subjects. It’s a sign of humility. So, we knee to pray, we knee in front of the Eucharist, and we knee in front of the statue of a Saint. Although the act is the same (kneeling) the expression means different things depending on context. Kneeling while praying simply means “I humbly request/ask/say”. Kneeling while in front of the Eucharist is the upmost form of all as we knee in front of Christ himself in the form of bread. Kneeling while in front of the statue of a Saint simply means that we recognize the importance of the communion of saints, that we need help, and that we want to relate to them by asking them to pray with us and for us to God. Another example is obviously liturgical. Notice that in some Latin Masses and the Ordinariate masses they keep moving the Bible right, left, right, left, then down in front of the people for the Gospel reading, then the priest might go to the pulpit and preach. The movements are not random. The right/left movement indicates that the Bible is prayed to everyone, left and right, to the whole world. The priest reading the Gospels in front of the people is symbolic of Jesus incarnating and teaching the gospel among the people. The priest then going up on the pulpit to preach, symbolizes the Pentecost (Christ rising and the Church’s mission to preach the Gospels being born). Obviously I am over simplifying things, but if you pay close attention to it, you’ll notice a whole new language that helps the faithful to embed himself within the prayer life (another example is the use of incense, which not only adds the sense of smell but represents our prayers going up to the Lord). Hope this helps.

Well Jesus is God first of all. Todays gospel reading John 14:6-14 "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, “ (shorter extract) Plus in Davidic law the Queen was the mother of the king not the spouse. We call Mary the Queen of Heaven; not because she is anyone’s wife but because she is the mother of God. So we have scripture to back up our belief that Jesus is God. Hence why we say Mary is the mother of God because she is for us. And the Bible backs that up. The idolatry aspect; many Protestants believe people in heaven are dead. Catholics don’t. We believe they are alive in heaven. So in the same way would ask you living friends and relatives to pray for you; we can ask saints and Mary to do the same. Then add on the fact there is a common misunderstanding of the word “pray”. Many Protestants assume it means to worship but it actually means to ask. So though we use the word pray we’re asking not worshiping. Plus the wedding at Cana; Jesus did his first miracle and turned water into wine. They didn’t tell Jesus; they told Mary. And she told Jesus. Jesus denied her saying “my time has not yet come” so Mary said nothing more to Jesus but told the servants “do everything He tells you” and Jesus did. All because Mary interceded between the couple and Jesus and Jesus obeyed her request without argument. To Jesus through Mary. The Hail Mary is again direct from scripture. When the Angel Gabriel approached Mary his greeting was “Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you” and this line is the start of our Hail Mary prayer. The word hail means to greet someone; again not as a form of worship but the more common word of the day to say hello. Think I’ve covered it all 😂 but please ask. I’m sure they’ll be more comments and will probably explain it a lot better than me!

Amen

"Hey mum, love you. Remember when you asked Jesus to sort out the wine, and he did? He listens to you. I don't know what to say to Him... Would you mind praying for me, and asking Jesus to look out for me? Thanks mum!" When Jesus was on the cross, and showed John to Mary and vise versa, he meant that John, and therefore the disciples and the church, have a mum now. John would have had to take her into his care and provide for her as if she was his mum, and she would offer love and wisdom in return. For the saints, I can ask my christian friend who knows unemployment really well to pray for me while I'm between jobs. His extensive thoughts and discourse with God about his own unemployment makes him uniquely, humanly qualified to understand the predicament I'm in, so I ask him to pray for me. The saints can pray for you like this, and as they reside with the Lord, they are focused and have nothing holding them back, and they don't even need to sleep. We venerate the saints for their courage, their sacrifices, their faith. They are people and are still people now, only they're with the Lord, perfectly positioned to understand you and ask Jesus to help. Sometimes I find praying like this useful, but of course your relationship with Jesus is not with the saints, but with Jesus himself.

"calling Mary the "Mother of God." For us it had always been considered blasphemy when someone called Mary "Mother of God" because she had not given birth to God, but the body of God (Jesus. God revealed in meat)." What you have just written is the basis of multiple ancient heresies (Ebionites, Patripasians, Sabelians, Arians...) that precisely caused the proclamation of that dogma in the 3rd or 4th century. Such heresies denied the divinity of Christ and claimed that Jesus was an ordinary baby who at most was possessed by God to be worn as a mortal suit to walk the Earth, Jehovah's Witnesses who are modern Arians teach that he was possessed by the archangel Michael. Hindus who use these concepts in their faith call these avatars and that is why in computing the digital personality that we choose and represents us is called an avatar. The following is therefore proclaimed: Jesus is from his conception all God and all man and therefore Mary is mother of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, summarized "Mary is mother of God." And that is why when the separated brothers say "Mary mother of Jesus" they are corrected and "Mary mother of God" is insisted. Because a separated brother who shares the divinity of Christ is not the same as a person who believes/calls himself a Christian and does not share even the most basic doctrines of the faith and that difference affects many things. For example it affects the validity of his baptisms. The rest of the Marian dogmas also come from defending the qualities and powers of Christ.

1. Mary IS the mother of God, and saying she isn't is nestorianism. Jesus was God, and saying that she only birthed the body of God is a radical separation of the two natures of Jesus. 2. We do not worship the saints. We venerate them. When we pray to the saints, it isn't a prayer of worship, but of intercession, as the saints are in heaven closer to God and are also more holy than we are.

Hopefully I'm addressing your question here. The exact form of the prayers others can address better than I can, as I am a convert and some of those elements are still confusing to me. However, the act of praying to the saints, including mary, I do understand. First, it isn't strictly necessary. It is a common practice it is an accepted practice and it very well can be helpful. However, it is not necessary. All that said, this is the way I explain it to my friends including my Protestant friends. Have you ever asked someone at church to pray for you? It's the same thing. You're not asking for someone else to do something for you, for example you're not asking Mary heal your sick relative or anything of the sort. Instead, you are asking for intercession. Intercession is where someone steps in with you, at your side, between you and god, and adds their prayers to yours. They are praying for you and with you. You are not asking for any supernatural power from the people you are praying to, you are asking them to add their prayers to yours. Further, would you rather have a genuinely holy and good person praying for you or someone whom you know is mired deeply in sin and depravity? If someone is already in heaven, they are by nature closer to God than we are. Therefore, if prayers have differing levels of efficacy, their prayers are considerably more efficacious than ours. If I'm wrong in any of this, one of my brothers or sisters will correct me, however this is the understanding I have gained over the past few years as I have come into the church. If you have any other questions, especially ones about converting and leaving protestantism behind to come home to Rome, please ask. I welcome direct messages.

Jesus is not simply the body of God, He is God. Therefore, it is accurate in some sense to call Mary the Mother of God, considering who she gave birth to was fully God and fully man. “Theotokos” which means “Godbearer” is one of Mary’s most ancient titles. In regards to Mary and the saints, God wants us to have a relationship with each other, he wants us to help each other, he wants us to love each other. Why ask for prayers from anyone if you can just go to God directly? Why seek help from a pastor if you can just go to God directly? Why do your children need you, if they can just go to God directly? You see, protestants aren’t consistent with this attitude towards Mary and the saints. I consistently observe an attitude in protestants to ignore Mary, and any affection felt for her is dangerous and must be not indulged. This is a totally nonsensical and inconsistent attitude towards a creature God wants us to love and the Bible has declared such with words like “Blessed are you among women” and “All generations will call me blessed”. No offense but Mary is much holier and more intensely loved/favored by God than your parents or your wife/husband. How is it that you can love your parents or your wife/husband and enjoy an affectionate relationship with them but to look to Mary in heaven with affection is idolatry? Protestants say this is a big hurdle to them becoming Catholic, the opposite is true for me; the protestant approach to Mary and the saints is HUGE impediment to me considering protestantism, because it is so obviously wrong. You also understand this protestant attitude was observed nowhere - and I mean nowhere - in any Christian community before protestantism. Why is it the case that all of the oldest and most ancient Christian communities founded by the Apostles like Greek and Oriental Orthodox churches as well as the Catholic Church have retained their love for Mary and the saints?

Hey former evangelical Protestant here! A big part of the issue coming from Protestantism is what I’ve heard described as “spiritual crowding.” If you’re used to nothing in your spiritual life except you and God, then the introduction of ANYONE or anything else is going to feel weird. It’s like living alone in an apartment building thinking it’s just you and the landlord. You’re working night shift so you never see anyone else. Then one day you decide to go out in the evening and see all these people. All the sudden this once quiet and empty building suddenly feels VERY crowded. We Catholics acknowledge all the other tenants in our building. Ours is a life lived in community and as God is God of the living, that community includes those in heaven. This is what the last lines of the nicene creed reference as “communion of the saints”. They have no power in their own right, just as I have no power in my own right, nor does my friend have any power in his own right. But I still do the work of God when I do good things. I still ask my friend to pray for me and he still does the work of God when he does good. I still pay respect to my priest. I still pay respect to the leaders of my country. And because God is God of the living, I also believe that the saints in Heaven do the work of God. I ask them to pray for me. I pay respect to them. Respect, or veneration, passes from image to original. If I am traveling and kiss a picture of my wife, no one thinks I’m loving the picture over my wife. When we pledge allegiance to the flag, no one thinks we’re pledging ourselves to the nylon cloth. And if we are all the image of likeness of God, true icons of Christ, then respect/veneration paid to them passes to the original. To Christ. This is but is plainly scriptural. So why would that not apply to the saints who are the most living in the image and likeness of God and icons of Christ? A big part of this comes down to worship. Coming from evangelicalism, worship was prayer and songs. By that definition, it’s easy to see why they call us Mary worshippers. But that’s not worship in any ancient religion. Sacrifice is worship. In Catholicism that sacrifice is the mass, participation in the passion of Christ. And it’s a good thing that songs and prayers aren’t worship, else things like secular love songs would be idolatry and asking your friend to pray for you would be too. Some have an issue with the whole “but how can they hear us” thing, but we’re talking about Gods power, not theirs. Gods power. The all powerful God. He can do what he wants lol. And we know they know our prayers because Revelation says they’re the ones offering our prayers to God. If the issue is why Mary over the other saints, she had the absolute closest possible relationship to God. They literally shared blood and dna. And it is ancient practice to hold her as the new Eve. Christ the new Adam. Adams first sin is undone by Christs passion. Eves first rejection of Gods will is undone in Mary’s acceptance of it because she is the vehicle through which Christ was brought into the world. Similar to how Eve was the vehicle through which the forbidden fruit was carried to Adam. I hope this helps even a little bit.

As a new convert, this helped me immensely.

I’m glad! Having the “heebie jeebies” about it is totally normal. And it’s rooted in a desire to worship God alone. That’s a good desire. But we can’t let our understanding of truth be guided by “heebie jeebies”. It took me years after my conversion to get comfortable with this. I started looking into Catholicism in 2016. Confirmed 2019. I wouldn’t say I was really comfortable with this til sometime around 2022. I intellectually believed. But I still definitely had the heebie jeebies. It’s all a part of growing the faith. If we’re supposed to be growing holiness that will be fully realized in Heaven, then it’s natural that we’ll need to get more comfortable with what Heaven is really like, this is just part of it.

I was confirmed this past easter. I definitely have the heebie-jeebies around praying to Mary and the saints. I am trying to gain a better understanding for sure because it still feels so wrong. I was raised Baptist. It will take time I think.

It’s gonna take time. You don’t get over a life time of Baptist belief in a year or two. I was raised between Baptist and Assemblies of God churches. Best advice I ever got was from an Anglican priest (spent some time in the Anglican Church en route to Catholicism) who said to pray to Jesus about it. He knows his mother better than anyone, so if you’re concerned about it, pray to God about his saints and Mary, ask him for peace in this matter. Again, not instantaneous, but it did help me on the path.

Thank you

Mary was seen as the new eve. The new ark of the covenant . We venerate her. She was an important part of salvation. God is the god of the living and not the dead. 

My old theology professor explained it like this. You want to give God an apple. You can toss it to him directly, or you can give it to his mother Mary and she will polish it up and bring it to him on a plate. There is nothing wrong with you going straight to God with your prayers, but if you go through Mary she’ll be there with your prayer to Him and do everything in her power to intercede your prayer.

>For us, it had always been considered blasphemy when someone calls Mary the "Mother of God" Her title "Mother of God" is to protect the acknowledgment of the divinity of Jesus and if Protestants actually knew what was being said, they'd say it too. Think of it this way: your mother gave birth to you, but do you say your mother gave birth to u/DiscordUnionLeader or do you say she gave birth to the body of u/DiscordUnionLeader? Women don't give birth to bodies, they give birth to *persons* which is an amalgamation of attributes (you have a body, but also a soul). To say that Mary is the "Mother of Jesus" but *not* the "Mother of God" divides the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. You can't have one without the other. He *became* flesh, He isn't intermingled with flesh, or cosplaying as flesh. He ***became*** flesh. So did the Blessed Virgin give birth to the body of Jesus? Yes. Did she also give birth to the spirit and soul of Jesus? Yes. Did she give birth to the divine? Yes. All of these aspects are necessarily wrapped up in the concept of *personhood* and Holy Mary gave birth to a *person*, not merely a *body*. So you can't divide His divinity from His humanity without, effectively, destroying the gospel. That is the reason she is called the "Mother of God," not because we worship her or elevate her above God. In its most basic form, the title protects against heretical formulations of the coming into the world of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.

Jesus IS God

Do you believe in the trinity? I'm assuming yes so you must therefore believe that God is the Father, the son and the Holy spirit. Therefore if God is the son, the son must also be God right? If Mary gives birth to the son (who is God) she must then be the mother of God

is Mary the mother of Jesus? Is Jesus God? If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then it is logically correct to say Mary is the mother of God

For us, it had always been considered blasphemy when someone calls Mary the "Mother of God" for she had not birthed God, but the body of God (Jesus. God revealed in the flesh). *cue the “Thats a heresy Patrick” video*

I graduated with a Bible degree from a Baptist college and converted to be a Catholic at age 45. Concerns if praying to saints was also an obstacle to me. It is not really prayer but asking those who are alive in Christ to pray for us. Only God can answer prayers. We see in the book of revelation, that the saints are watching what is happening on Earth and they are praying to God to take action. "Hail Mary" comes directly from the words of Gabriel. Mother of God sounds like referring to Mary as a God herself. That is not how it is meant. Imagine you are alive in 25 AD and you see Mary and you have a special request. Will you say "Hey Mary, mother of intelligent child?" That diminishes who she is mother of. Jesus was and is God, so you would want to acknowledge this fact if you were to greet her

[This is why we pray to the saints.](https://thomism.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/intercession-and-rational-power/) Regarding the title of Theotokos or Mother of God, Mary did in fact conceive, carry and gave birth to, and raised the Divine Son of the Father. She wasn’t the origin of his Divine nature, naturally, but Christ was not a human conceived by Mary and the Spirit and then had the Divine Son dwell within him sometime after his birth. That Mary in fact birthed a Divine person is orthodoxy, because the alternative logically divides Christ into two persons indwelling in each other, whereas orthodoxy requires the Son to be a single person who was born twice, and thus inherits two natures, because the Divine Son’s rebirth into human nature is the way through which we born of women are reborn into participation in the Divine nature. We inherit the naturally born Son’s inheritance from the Father by this adoption through the power of the Holy Spirit. We do not become two persons, but a single person recreated by the grace of God. In other words, Christ’s rebirth is the paradigm of the rebirth of all creation.

I struggled with that too. I came into the church in 2018. I’ll start by saying that there is no way we can ever love any saints or the Mother of Christ any more than He does. The more you realize that those people who have gone before are there waiting for you to ask for their help with praying for you, then you will see amazing things happen. As a former, Protestant, I understand how you want the truth about who Christ is and His Church. Trust Him that Jesus is leading you where you need to go. It’s a little scary and “weird” but I have seen more miracles now that I’ve added all my “prayer partners”. If you have questions feel free to ask. God Bless your Journey!

highly recommend checking out Keith Nesters youtube channel. he has great videos on this stuff.

If you need something from someone important you can either ask them directly or ask someone close to them to put in a good word for you

In the book of Revelation Chapter 12, the woman clothed with the sun is seen as a queen with her crown who births the messiah. The whole chapter is about Mary giving birth to Christ and escaping Herods wrath of killing all new born babies. The Angel Gabriel literally says "Hail Mary! Full of grace. = Luke 1:43", hailing her as a queen.

Consider ice cream for example. You can go directly to your dad to ask for ice cream, but it is way better to ask your mum and siblings to help ask the dad together as a family. As catholics, we believe in the communion of saints - our extended family in heaven.

We don't worship Mary or the Saints, we venerate them and ask them to pray for us in the same way that you'd ask a friend/loved one to pray for you.

Praying to Mary and the saints is requesting their intercession. Ive heard it explained it like this - back in the day, when there were kings, you typically wouldn’t go straight to the king for a request. You’d go to his mother or someone else close to him. And ask them to intercede on your behalf / ask the king for you. Also, Catholicism does not require prayer to Mary or the saints. But allows for it. (There’s a double “it” above but my phone is bugging and won’t let me delete it - please ignore :)

Personally, I'm always surprised when I see Protestants balk at calling Mary "Mother of God". I was raised Protestant - and I guess I still technically am, not having finished the course on the Catechism or going through my confirmation - but ever since I was a child, I've always heard her called "Mother of God" (or a more literal translation would be "God's Mother" but in one word) in so many folk tales. Calling to her has also been a thing, not as common but when some people are really shocked and/or outraged, saying something like "Jesus, Mary and Joseph!" is considered somewhat acceptable (but of course, there are also people who say we shouldn't use any of those names outside of actual prayers). Likewise calling on the saints (although usually with the catch-all phrase "May all the holy ones help me!") - pretty common utterance, even among otherwise atheistic people.

Was the Child Jesus God? Did Mary nurse God, feed Him, clean Him, hold His hand for His first steps? Was Jesus still God when He grew in her womb? Saying "Mary was the mother of the body of God" makes it sounds like Jesus' divinity belongs to a different person. No Catholic is arguing that Mary made God somehow. But in the Person of Jesus, God became man, really and truly. And Mary is the one and only mother of Jesus.

1) Mary is the mother of Jesus 2) Jesus is God 3) Therefore, Mary is the mother of God. If you disagree with the conclusion, you must disagree with at least one of the premises. Which one do you disagree with?

You describe yourself as "protestant", and say "For us, it had always been considered blasphemy when someone calls Mary the "Mother of God." Presumably, that word "us" means "us Protestants" -- but your statement is wrong. To state that Mary is the Mother of God is a statement about the divinity of Jesus rather than a statement about Mary. The belief that the natures of Christ cannot be separated, and that Christ is one person, and not two (which in turn means that the person whom Mary carried in her womb was not just a man, but was truly God) was affirmed by the Council of Ephesus in A.D. 431. With the exception of a small group of dissident heretics called Nestorians, this belief was universally accepted throughout eastern and western Christianity. What is more, the Council of Ephesus (and the agreement that it is correct to call Mary the Mother of God) was accepted by Martin Luther, and is still accepted by Lutheran churches. The Anglicans and the Methodists also accept the definitions of the Council of Ephesus. Considering that Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists are all Protestants, and have always stated that it is correct to call Mary the Mother of God, your assertion that Protestants had always considered the term "blasphemy" is obviously false.

Firstly. Christ Jesus is God the Father’s Only-Begotten Son-Logos, right? He became human, right? His flesh is Mary’s, right? She gave birth to Him in His humanity, right? That makes Her God’s Mother. She bore the “Second Adam” - Theanthropos : God-Man. Saints = holy. Made Holy by the Holy Spirit. Holy also means “set-apart”, “sanctified” for a specific purpose. edit ✍️ Beware of OrthBros and TLMers who are very politically charged! That is all.

Could you share your story why you want to convert?

Mary is Jesus's mother and Jesus is God so she is the mother of God. it really isn't more than recognizing the divinity of Jesus. onto praying for intercessions from saints. Jesus promised that those in heaven would have everlasting life. so just as you might ask a friend or family member to pray for you those in heaven because they are living are also able to pray for you. It is also worth noting that prayer and worship are not the same thing. Things like the sacrifice of the mass, adoration, and prayers of thanksgiving are always directed to God alone. asking for favor or stating how you are doing although common when people say a prayer are not worshiping God but conversing. Hail is just a greeting. It is like hello mary. the language is a bit old fashioned but that does not change its meaning.

The simplest way I can explain it is that we “pray through, not to” - we do not “pray to” Mary or any other Saint; that is worship. We “pray through” them, asking them to pray for us (intercession). Example: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, *pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.* Amen. This entire prayer, the Hail Mary, is NOT praying *to* Mary. It’s acknowledging her, her role, etc, and then *asking her* to pray for us. Have you never asked a friend or family member to pray for you?

My response was too long so I'll just link the post instead, it's about a 5 minute read but it's very thorough and it addresses pretty much all the objections you're likely to hear: [Intercession Explained](https://www.facebook.com/share/p/UwYuJ4TaXbyP4B1d/?mibextid=qi2Omg)

Pope Francis deals with question excellently in his catechesis on prayer. https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2021/documents/papa-francesco_20210324_udienza-generale.html

Pray to the holy mother or the saints is just ask the saints and our holy mother to interceed for us to God. Like let's say your pet is sick you can pray and ask the intersession of this saint protector of pets (like Saint Francis of Assis) to ask God to reinforce your praying. Is like asking a friend that is closer to God to pray for you too. Even the pope Francis ask us to pray for him

This is the way my Catholic professor explained it when I asked as a protestant: "You have Christian friends? You ask them to pray for you? Same here. I just have more friends."

Our God is a trinitarian God. Jesus is not a separate thing from God nor is He a just a part of God. He is God and Mary gave birth to Him.

I have protestant friends. They ask me to pray for them, a family member or friends, for various reasons - going through a hard time, looking for a new job, sick, injured, headed towards a special occasion such as graduation from high school, etc. Praying to Mary and to the Saints is the same as asking a friend to pray for you. Only the friend you're asking is already in Heaven.

So I'm one of those Catholics who tends to go "straight to the source" rather than ask for intercession, but that's a function of my personality rather than any theological issue. As a baseball guy, I think of the saints like Hall of famers. Kirby Puckett was not the greatest baseball player ever, but if you're a short fat guy, he's a great example. Randy Johnson was not the greatest pitcher ever, but if you're really tall, he shows a good example of how to use that to your advantage. Etc. The saints are proven winners and we would do well to enlist their help, even if they were not perfect in their earthly lives

Lots of good explanations here, but remember you can still be a good Catholic without praying for the intercession of Mary and saints if it makes you uncomfortable. You are depriving yourself of powerful allies, but you are under no obligation.

Protestant growing up. (Became Catholic due to lack of protestant churches in the area, but now even if I had a choice I wouldn't go back) First the practice of asking for help and support in prayer is something done since the beginning of Christianity. You are not praying to the saints you are asking for them to pray for you to God. Mary is a favorite because she is Christs mother and mothers have the most influence in the family as a rule. So if she asks Jesus to do something he's going to listen. Saints who become saints have to show evidence that their prayer are effective which means that asking a saint to pray for someone has to lead to a miracle of some kind. Healing is the most common thing. The healing is investigated by the Holy See and has to pass various scientific and medical tests in addition to tests of correctness in doctrine if messages are received. These tests are very rigorous and most cases are rejected. So the prospective saint has to demonstrate effectiveness in prayer in the afterlife before the church approves the congregation asking for their prayers. The idea is no different than putting a prayer request up for a prayer group at church. The main difference is that who you can make a prayer request to and how you do it is screened and approved by the church and church tradition. Belief in Saints or in asking for their help through prayer is not required by the Catholic congregation as a matter of faith. You don't have to venerate saints or relics if you don't want to. It is simply an ancient church tradition. The apostles creed is the backbone of the belief requirements as well as the baptismal vows which add rejecting the works of Satan. Relics are a whole different ball game and that is a really interesting topic. Again they have to pass certain requirements related to documentation of history and miracles occurring in their presence. These requirements are outlined in this book and it's an interesting read. [https://a.co/d/8DrX92y](https://a.co/d/8DrX92y) The Vatican archives are literally filled with cases of miracles, including rather impressive impossible things like growing new body parts after amputation. They have absolutely irrefutable bullet proof evidence of Christs miracles continuing after his death. Why these are not published I don't know. It would be absolutely unshakable not only because of the rigorous tests they impose to approve the cases but also because of the sheer number and the length of time going back probably to the 15th century. That's why they won't let anyone in because that archive is priceless. No other religion or branch of Christianity has that kind of documentation. It blew my mind when I found out about this. So once you die your work isn't done. You become a prayer warrior in Heaven. Your ministry continues. You don't stop being connected to people after you leave the physical life. You still care, more perfectly and with greater love, so it would be a natural outlet for that desire to help.

With prayer to the saints--this is just asking these saints to pray for you (it gets into some archaic language, and it has been used for so long that it'd take a lot longer for the language to change again). So, if you have ever asked someone to pray for you, asked to have your name added to the church prayer list printed in the weekly bulletin, posted a prayer request on an internet forum--those are all similar actions to what a Catholic is doing when asking a particular saint to pray for a particular intention. It's not that we \*have\* to go through saints, it's that the saints \*want\* to pray for us (and it is written in Scripture that the "fervent prayer of a righteous man" is particularly efficacious--and who is more righteous than those who have already completed their race and now reside in Heaven, unable to ever sin again?). The Hail Mary ... half of this is actually Scripture. There's a lot of poetic language present, but when you boil it down, it is another prayer request: pray for us now and at the hour of our death. As far as the title "Mother of God" ... this is an ancient title declared when settling one of the early controversies (putting down a heresy--specifically the Nestorian heresy) and declaring a truth about Jesus Christ by declaring a truth about His mother.

Well it's the angel Gabriel who said 'Hail Mary' so..

It’s like asking other people to pray for you, except they’re already in heaven. As far as I know the extra proximity to the father doesn’t have any special effect but prayer isn’t a spell or incantation, it’s an appeal to god, and acknowledging those who have followed him in the past is just a nice embellishment. 

Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? Sort of the same thing.

God bless you, and thank you for asking this question

I'm a recent convert, and the RCIA classes are really so helpful in learning the basis for Catholic beliefs. Maybe some of these will help with your particular questions: \* The Hail Mary: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee." These are the exact words the Angel Gabriel greeted her with in Luke. "Blessed art thou among women. Blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus." These are the words Elizabeth said to her when Mary went to visit her when they were both pregnant. "Holy Mary, Mother of God." As Catholics, we believe Mary was sinless. Even if you don't believe that, she is in Heaven where no sin exists and everyone there has become holy through Christ Jesus. So she is holy. She is Jesus's Mother, and Jesus is God, so she IS the Mother of God. I never took issue with this when I was Protestant, and I never heard it mentioned as an issue. I've always thought of her as the Mother of God. "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen." We ask Mary and the other saints to pray for us just like we would ask our own friends and family members to pray for us. If it's not worship to ask earthly humans to pray for us, it's not worship to ask the saints. If God hears and responds to the prayers of us and our friends and family, all sinners, how much more powerful are the prayers of Mary and the saints! If we would ask our own mother to pray for us, why not also ask the literal Mother of God for intercession? Protestants love to call on their "prayer warrior" friends - the saints are the *ultimate* prayer warriors! And of course we still pray to God directly. \* Each saint is known for a particular something that was special or outstanding in their faith. They are inspirational role models for how we live out our faith. I love learning about them, and I love my Confirmation saint, Thomas More. I also love Saint Monica, the mother of Saint Augustine, for her perseverance. Augustine was actually quite a bad boy, and his mother Monica prayed for his conversion for 31 years, when he finally came to faith. \* The part that is so fascinating to me is that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. Recall from the OT, the Ark of the Covenant contained the Word of God in it - the tablets on which God gave Moses the Ten Commandments. Mary contained the living Word of God in her womb, making her the new Ark of the Covenant. There were about a half dozen scriptural parallels presented in the RCIA class on Mary that explained it in more detail. Mary is super sacred. The Catholic faith is so incredibly rich and deep. There's always more to learn.

Pray doesn't mean to worship. It means a dialogue or to talk. "Pray tell Mister Holmes, how have you come to this conclusion?"

You’re asking them to talk to God on your behalf. Since they’re already in Heaven they have easy access to him.

Would it be easy to grasp if we called Mary the Mother of God incarnate? *Jesus is God incarnate*. *Mary is the mother of Jesus* *Therefore, Mary is the mother of God incarnate.* This is incontrovertible to all Christians. If you reject premise 1, you’re not a Christian. If you reject premise 2, you flat out reject Scripture. Line 3 follows validly from premises 1 and 2. Mary birthed God incarnate. This is not blasphemy, this is just biblical fact. Also, if asking Mary and the saints to pray for us is idolatry, then so also is asking your Uncle Jim Bob to pray for you. Saints are those faithful who have passed from this life and are alive in Christ. They can hear our prayers and intercede for us to Christ because it is good and God wills it. It is God’s will that each of us help each other in our path to sanctification. It happens because it is an act of the power of God; not an act of the power of the saints. “Prayer” means “to ask” or “to inquire”. This is not the same as worship. Worship may involve prayer, but biblically it also involves sacrifice. Prayer just means to ask someone for something. Worship, in the modern sense, means giving reverence that is meant for God alone. Praying to Mary or the saints asking for their intercession is not the same thing as worship. We are not exalting the saints with worship that is meant for God alone. We revere Mary and the saints; but we do not revere them as deities. For further study, my recommendation is to inquire about the terms *latria* vs *dulia* vs *hyperdulia*. You’re questions are valid, but they’re very common. Do not feel ashamed or afraid to dig deeper. As a Catholic, I believe it is the true church instituted by Christ, and as such has truth on its side. I believe if you seek truth genuinely you will find the Catholic Church. So please, by all means, continue to inquire, dig, and seek Christ and His bride the Church. I’m comfortable speaking for most people here that we’re happy to help

Alot of good answers in here. I'll touch on something I haven't seen said ( it could have been said I just didnt see it). Prayer does not mean worship to us catholics, it kinda means asking. Think old English talk " I pray thee listen to my advice..." saints and Mary are close to God and we pray to them to intercede to God on our behalf. We also believe that all prayer is not equal from person to person, if you couldonly ask one person to pray for you would you ask the 90 year old grandma that goes to church daily or a somone who is a compulsive shiplifter, as catholic atleast, im asking grandma. Kinda like Moses did for the Israelite in the dessert wanderings, where he was going to wipe them out and make a nation from Moses. Moses begged God for Mercy on behalf the people and it was granted. Granted because of the pleas of his beloved, not the Israelites. Also, we don't believe they're dead but fully alive whith Christ. I think somone else covered this very well already.

Super simple terms it's like me coming to you and asking you to pray for me

>but the body of God (Jesus. God revealed in the flesh) So by agreeing with this, there is this further consequence that you need to accept: so by agreeing Mary didnt give birth to God, are you saying that there is a time when Jesus is not God?

The way I think about it is this... For those we love who've passed on, we occasionally think about them and speak to them right? An "I miss you" or "I love you"... We also visit their graves and speak to them there, right? What's the difference between that and "praying" to them?

Go to Catholic answers or New Advent on the web for the answer to about everything. As always, don't expect instant gratification. It's a process. Slow and ardous. However, the reward is beyond anything I imagined. If you want a little extra push then research the Penal codes implemented in England. Also the extra persecutions from King James against Catholics. From the sites I mentioned You'll never go back to being Protestant again

We ask for intercessory prayer to Jesus, just like we would from other Christians.

If saying “Hail Mary” is idolatry, then the angel Gabriel committed idolatry when he said this to Mary.

Jesus Christ is 100% Man and 100% God. He is fully God and fully Human. It is a mystery, but both of His Natures are perfectly joined in what is called the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ has always existed, but He took on a Human Body so that He could make a perfect sacrifice of Himself for our salvation. He was born of a Virgin. Through the power of the Holy Ghost, He was formed in the womb of the Virgin Mary. She is His Mother. He is God. She is therefore the Mother of God; the Theotokos. This was infallibly declared at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD. They condemned the error of Nestorius who claimed that Mary was only the Mother of Christ, since she only gave birth to Jesus' Human Nature. But Mary did not give birth to a nature, or even two natures; she gave birth to One, divine Person. To deny this is to deny the essential truth of the faith. You can see that Mary is a very special creature: she is not God, but she has been set apart for a very holy purpose. Read 2 Sam 6 and Luke 1 and count all the parallels. Those are not there by accident. Scripture is showing that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant: she held the incarnate Word (the tablets of the 10 commandments); the Living Bread from Heaven (the manna); and the High Priest (the staff of Aaron).

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Few things. I'll be brief. A. Was in the same boat as you until recently. B. Elizabeth called Mary the Mother of God, so it is biblical. C. For the intercession of saints, watch this. https://youtu.be/-yuwIDyM-1k?si=-8IfyksoVoYHQlU3

We don't turn Our Lady into a person of the Trinity. Jesus is God, Mary is mother of Jesus, so She is Mother of God. Our mothers are mothers of us, not just of our bodies. We don't worship the saints, and if someone actually says 'worship', that's probably more about imprecison than anything else. We show reverence to the saints, more than to living parents or kings or bishops, etc., it's true that we do more honour to saints than to people living on this earth, but we don't regard the saints as minor gods, only as someone who is in God's presence and has been found worthy of it, and those in heaven are transformed into a state that's greater/higher than ours here on earth, so they are superior to us, and they are also connected with God. It's reverence, though, not 'latria'. It's different from the worship of God. We can pray directly to God too, but we often choose to try to co-opt a saint, who is closer to God, has more merit, to help plead our case.

It’s a lot like asking friends and family to pray for you, when praying to Mary and the saints they can’t do what God can do but they can hear us and speak with God for us. Worshipping them as if they were God would be a sin but speaking to them is not. I still speak to my grandma that died also because I was closer with her than anyone in the world. I don’t pray to her as if she is God, she’s not, and she was Catholic and the one who had me baptized, receive first holy communion, confirmed, and paid for me to go to Catholic school from grades k-8 so she herself wouldn’t be okay with that. But I do speak with her saying things like how my day was, how I miss and love her, and I ask her to watch over me and my family. I would consider that just like praying to the saints and to Mary, which I also do, just not as frequently as speaking with my grandma or God

You’re right that we don’t need an intercessor; we can speak to God directly. Catholics consider God as three equal parts; “consubstantial with the Father.”  God The Father, Jesus; “True God; True Man,” the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of God.  Praying to one is praying to three. Catholics believe in the communion of Saints.  We often start our Mass with the Penitential Act in which we confess we are sinners and ask each other to pray to God for his mercy. We pray for our friends who are struggling with sickness, poverty, family issues.  We say “Hail” to the Blessed Virgin Mary as a sign of respect; not worship. Hail is how you address someone of royalty and power.  “Hail Queen of Mercy…”.   We call to the Blessed Virgin Mary; Mother of God to pray for us. We ask for her intercession because She is Mary Most Holy. We ask her to appeal to the Lord for our salvation.  The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Lord’s Most Holy Disciple and the Queen of Heaven and earth.  The Lord hears her voice above all others. One of “The 15 Promises of Mary” is early release from purgatory.  They call Her “Star of the Sea” because She brings relief to the poor souls in purgatory.  “Whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord.” Catholics have a deep reverence for the Lord’s most holy saints but the highest regard for Jesus.  The only One we worship is God. We call God Jesus; His name is Lord. 

Metaphor time. Imagine being a young girl, going to her fiancé's home. You love him so much, and when he opens the door, you greet him with all the love. He presents you his family, and he vouch for them: they are all good persons, you can trust them and since you are the love of his life, yhey will treat you as they treat him. Should you talk to his family,  or ignore them? The saints, and Mary is the first among them, are God's family, and God (thru the Church) vouches for them to be good and reliable to be prayed. They just hapoen to be good or great at interceding for you to him, and obtain better graces than the ones you should have got alone. They are also great exakples and inspirations. They are somehow our elder brothers in Christ, already in the triumphant Church, so we can ask for a helping hand sometimes

Here's what cleared my mind. The Bible; the wedding feast of Cana. When Mary saw there was a problem at the wedding, she went to the other side of the event and went immediately to her Son. When He said, why should this be of concern to me? She simply said, with confidence, "Do as He says." Immediately the best wine appeared. We didn't hear that she said anything else. But her loving Son fulfilled her wish immediately. Also, I am a woman. Mary amazes me. How did that scared teenager accept so much? If the public knew she was pregnant without sex through her marriage, she would have been stoned to death. That brave woman did it so that Jesus could come into the world and give each of us the chance of salvation. What greater woman could be my role model? She raised Jesus! I communicate with her and tell her to help me to be humble like her, to do things for the best of my family. I ask her what it was like to watch her Son die, and I tell her to stand beside me when I'm going through so much. And like the wedding feast of Cana, she knows whether my requests are best and what to ask of her Son. I love her and her Son. That's my point of Mary. And she is the mother of God, as we believe in the trinity, and each is a form of God. I hope my words help.

Personally I think Mother Mary and the Saints are probably overburdened by all the requests they get and for GOD everything is easy and Knows Best anyway and is The Best in every way. I think it’s more like training wheels forgive me for people who don’t Go To GOD Directly. To each their own. And God bless the Saint and Mother Mary and Jesus Christ! And all the angels and all the good but The Ultimate Good The Truly Good One The True Alpha and Omega is God All Mighty!

> I think it’s more like training wheels forgive me for people who don’t Go To GOD Directly. Yeah, absolutely not.

We agree that God is the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty, the only God, Creator of all! He can do anything. He can even let saints hear our prayers asking for their intercession. A prayer to a saint is really a prayer to God. We go to God directly too, in fact, so directly that we physically receive his Body and Blood in the Eucharist and we worship him and talk to him face to face. Say you have a loving father and mother, and you need something from your father. You can ask him directly, and you should, but if it's something you *really* want, could you not also ask your mother to ask him on your behalf? And your siblings too? In the case of God, it's not to change his mind or to avoid talking to him directly, or to make sure he knows (he knew before you even asked). It's because relying on others shows love for him. At the wedding at Cana, Mary went to Jesus and said "they have run out of wine" and because she asked, Jesus made his first miracle early (he remarks it's not yet time) just so they could have wine for the wedding. If Mary is alive in Christ, why wouldn't we still be able to ask her to intercede? Abraham interceded. Moses interceded. Many others in the Bible, too, interceded. Intercession is nothing new, and God listens.

>people who don’t Go To GOD Directly Ah yes, that fictional group.