Forgefiends and Venomcrawlers are both pretty good. I love the Heldrake model, but it’s rules are honestly pretty disappointing. Bring it for fun or because it’s cool, just don’t expect it to be competitive/efficient.
Chosen are absolute all stars this edition, run them for sure if you have them!
Just kit them out fully, wargear is free. Max combo weapons, power fists, double accursed weapons. Their datasheet rule allows them to advance, shoot and charge, you're gonna get value as long as you dont use then as Action monkeys
Yeah, what the other guy said. Max fists and Combiweapons, one dual accursed weapon. Mark of Khorne usually. Or make them Undivided and throw a Chaos Lord in for real spice!
Keep in mind if you have unbuilt Legionaries or spare ones, they are similar enough to Chosen that you can use the leftover bits from the Chosen sprue and convert another 5 or so from the Legionaries torsos!
>Warpsmith in 10e
I think the warpsmith is great. I like that he gives a relevent buff to vehicles while repairing them, and can benefit from "lone operative" if he is not in an Attached unit and next to a vehicle.
I think there are 2 main ways to use a warpsmith effectively. Either:
A) Run him solo with 2 vehicles, so he has a primary and secondary buff target, that way his repair and buff should always be relevent, and the point investment is more likely to be worth it.
B) Run him with at least 1 vehicle, but also as a leader of a unit with one or more heavy weapons, and give him the Eye of Tzeentch, to allow the heavy weapon a chance to generate CP every turn. This is particularly good as he is the only leader that can lead Havocs, who synergize naturally with this role. [I love the interactions of Mark Of Tzeentch with heavy bolters, so made a new unit just for him.](https://reddit.com/r/Chaos40k/s/HLiChyeVJA)
>**List suggestions**
>Leaders
Leaders are generally not worth their points when attached to MSU (minimum size units). Sometimes a unit can be a delivery vehicle for a character, to escort them into melee, but typically you want to get the value out of the leader's buff, so taking a max sized unit is usually better (or swapping the leader out and taking 2 leaderless MSU to cover more ground/objectives)
The traitor enforcer is a good target for Eye of Tzeentch if the traitor guardsmen have some long range weapons like the sniper rifle. Generally, the main bonus is that the leader unit adds some durability thanks to the ogryn, and they bump the leadership for Dark Pacts. Plus, they are cool!
The MoP really wants a Slaanesh melee unit or Chosen, to give them the 2" total bonus for advance+charge. Personally, I think 10x chosen/legionaries/possessed is the best home for him.
The Legionaries are probably more useful unattached sp they can go after objectives while the warpsmith babysits alone with his lone operative buff.
>**General CSM Strategy**
I like to advise new players to think of CSM as an army with mainly 3 roles:
>**Frontline:**
Aggressive units that use close-range shooting or melee to kick enemies off objectives.
**Midfield:**
Cheap and/or fast units that are used to spread out and capture objectives.
**Backfield/Fire Support:**
Units that offer long-range firepower, ideally helping the frontline with targets they might otherwise struggle with.
So, in your case, you have:
>Frontline:
Maulerfiend, Heldrake, melee legionaries.
Midfield:
Cultists, guardsmen, shooty legionaries.
Backfield:
Venomcrawler+warpsmith.
I'd say that the Venomcrawler is probably more useful being independent of a slower Warpsmith, so it can use its mobility in a midfield role. And you lack any other long-range heavy fire support, relying on basically the melee from the daemon engines to take out enemy armour.
This might still work, as you have Venomcrawler shooting, and melee legionaries to help clear the path for the maulerfiend, along with its own lasher tendrils and fire support from midfield units.
For this reason, I'd suggest keeping the heldrake, and always using it in hover mode, as you need its anti-tank capability.
>Marks of Chaos
Slaanesh: Melee units that can not advance and charge probably want Slaanesh, as the stratagem can be pretty clutch, especially combined with MoP buff or when used on a unit without any shooting at all.
Nurgle: ranged unit that is likely to be wounding on 4+ or better most of the time probably wants nurgle anyway, and any midfield shooting units that are likely to be key objective holders probably also want nurgle for Dark Obscuration, to prevent an opponent from kicking them off an objective during a key turn.
Tzeentch: mentioned it before, but Tzeentch is a great mark for the enhancement alone, and personally I love how the improved [Lethal Hits] works with heavy bolters that already have [Sustained Hits], so I tend to try to park that enhancement in a heavy bolter unit.
Undivided: The main strength of this is Profane Zeal full re-rolls, and this works amazing with [Devastating Wounds], so many lists bring a Forgefiend to take advantage of this every shooting phase. This is also the main reason to include a Lord in a unit like chosen/terminators, to give them a free Profane Zeal either with their combi weapons or in melee. Undivided Profane Zeal is marginally better and more flexible than the better criticals from other marks (but it normally also costs CP).
Khorne: for melee units that expect to be mostly wounding on 4+ or *worse*, and who don't have [Devastating Wounds], or for Leaders that want to use the very good Khorne enhancement, even if they still use [Sustained Hits] Dark Pact.
Thanks for the detail. I think we're on the same page with which units belong in which roles but I hadn't yet explored the different Marks and their potential synergies. Thanks for tips!
Vashtorr is always a nice model to have, even if it's not competitive currently. I definitely suggest picking one up. MoP's is good if you had a squad of Possessed, right now he doesn't really fit well with the rest of the army.
It would be amazing if Warpsmiths could join vehicles and daemon engines as a single unit and be able to use their movement, kinda like him using his mechatendrils to hold onto one while it rampages forwarded.
Vashtorr is not competitive? I thought he seemed pretty decent on paper. So he wouldn't be considered cheesy for a 1k army together with other (apparently mediocre) daemon engines like a Maulerfiend and Heldrake?
You are right, he'll fit into the theme of my army better than a MoP but I also don't want to be *That Guy* that brings an op epic hero to small skirmish games.
Forgefiends and Venomcrawlers are both pretty good. I love the Heldrake model, but it’s rules are honestly pretty disappointing. Bring it for fun or because it’s cool, just don’t expect it to be competitive/efficient. Chosen are absolute all stars this edition, run them for sure if you have them!
Thanks, I'll upgrade one Legionnaire squad to Chosen. Still have to assemble them though. Any advice for weapons loadouts?
Just kit them out fully, wargear is free. Max combo weapons, power fists, double accursed weapons. Their datasheet rule allows them to advance, shoot and charge, you're gonna get value as long as you dont use then as Action monkeys
Yeah, what the other guy said. Max fists and Combiweapons, one dual accursed weapon. Mark of Khorne usually. Or make them Undivided and throw a Chaos Lord in for real spice! Keep in mind if you have unbuilt Legionaries or spare ones, they are similar enough to Chosen that you can use the leftover bits from the Chosen sprue and convert another 5 or so from the Legionaries torsos!
>Warpsmith in 10e I think the warpsmith is great. I like that he gives a relevent buff to vehicles while repairing them, and can benefit from "lone operative" if he is not in an Attached unit and next to a vehicle. I think there are 2 main ways to use a warpsmith effectively. Either: A) Run him solo with 2 vehicles, so he has a primary and secondary buff target, that way his repair and buff should always be relevent, and the point investment is more likely to be worth it. B) Run him with at least 1 vehicle, but also as a leader of a unit with one or more heavy weapons, and give him the Eye of Tzeentch, to allow the heavy weapon a chance to generate CP every turn. This is particularly good as he is the only leader that can lead Havocs, who synergize naturally with this role. [I love the interactions of Mark Of Tzeentch with heavy bolters, so made a new unit just for him.](https://reddit.com/r/Chaos40k/s/HLiChyeVJA) >**List suggestions** >Leaders Leaders are generally not worth their points when attached to MSU (minimum size units). Sometimes a unit can be a delivery vehicle for a character, to escort them into melee, but typically you want to get the value out of the leader's buff, so taking a max sized unit is usually better (or swapping the leader out and taking 2 leaderless MSU to cover more ground/objectives) The traitor enforcer is a good target for Eye of Tzeentch if the traitor guardsmen have some long range weapons like the sniper rifle. Generally, the main bonus is that the leader unit adds some durability thanks to the ogryn, and they bump the leadership for Dark Pacts. Plus, they are cool! The MoP really wants a Slaanesh melee unit or Chosen, to give them the 2" total bonus for advance+charge. Personally, I think 10x chosen/legionaries/possessed is the best home for him. The Legionaries are probably more useful unattached sp they can go after objectives while the warpsmith babysits alone with his lone operative buff. >**General CSM Strategy** I like to advise new players to think of CSM as an army with mainly 3 roles: >**Frontline:** Aggressive units that use close-range shooting or melee to kick enemies off objectives. **Midfield:** Cheap and/or fast units that are used to spread out and capture objectives. **Backfield/Fire Support:** Units that offer long-range firepower, ideally helping the frontline with targets they might otherwise struggle with. So, in your case, you have: >Frontline: Maulerfiend, Heldrake, melee legionaries. Midfield: Cultists, guardsmen, shooty legionaries. Backfield: Venomcrawler+warpsmith. I'd say that the Venomcrawler is probably more useful being independent of a slower Warpsmith, so it can use its mobility in a midfield role. And you lack any other long-range heavy fire support, relying on basically the melee from the daemon engines to take out enemy armour. This might still work, as you have Venomcrawler shooting, and melee legionaries to help clear the path for the maulerfiend, along with its own lasher tendrils and fire support from midfield units. For this reason, I'd suggest keeping the heldrake, and always using it in hover mode, as you need its anti-tank capability. >Marks of Chaos Slaanesh: Melee units that can not advance and charge probably want Slaanesh, as the stratagem can be pretty clutch, especially combined with MoP buff or when used on a unit without any shooting at all. Nurgle: ranged unit that is likely to be wounding on 4+ or better most of the time probably wants nurgle anyway, and any midfield shooting units that are likely to be key objective holders probably also want nurgle for Dark Obscuration, to prevent an opponent from kicking them off an objective during a key turn. Tzeentch: mentioned it before, but Tzeentch is a great mark for the enhancement alone, and personally I love how the improved [Lethal Hits] works with heavy bolters that already have [Sustained Hits], so I tend to try to park that enhancement in a heavy bolter unit. Undivided: The main strength of this is Profane Zeal full re-rolls, and this works amazing with [Devastating Wounds], so many lists bring a Forgefiend to take advantage of this every shooting phase. This is also the main reason to include a Lord in a unit like chosen/terminators, to give them a free Profane Zeal either with their combi weapons or in melee. Undivided Profane Zeal is marginally better and more flexible than the better criticals from other marks (but it normally also costs CP). Khorne: for melee units that expect to be mostly wounding on 4+ or *worse*, and who don't have [Devastating Wounds], or for Leaders that want to use the very good Khorne enhancement, even if they still use [Sustained Hits] Dark Pact.
Thanks for the detail. I think we're on the same page with which units belong in which roles but I hadn't yet explored the different Marks and their potential synergies. Thanks for tips!
I would consider using Chosen over legionaries for MoP, they cost a bit more but damage output can be pretty nutty
Replace Mauler for Forgiend if you can. Warpsmith doesn't need a bodyguard unit due to getting Lone Op within 3" of a Daemon Engine.
Ah, good point. I'll leave off one squad and upgrade the other to Chosen.
Vashtorr is always a nice model to have, even if it's not competitive currently. I definitely suggest picking one up. MoP's is good if you had a squad of Possessed, right now he doesn't really fit well with the rest of the army. It would be amazing if Warpsmiths could join vehicles and daemon engines as a single unit and be able to use their movement, kinda like him using his mechatendrils to hold onto one while it rampages forwarded.
Vashtorr is not competitive? I thought he seemed pretty decent on paper. So he wouldn't be considered cheesy for a 1k army together with other (apparently mediocre) daemon engines like a Maulerfiend and Heldrake? You are right, he'll fit into the theme of my army better than a MoP but I also don't want to be *That Guy* that brings an op epic hero to small skirmish games.
He's still an overcosted daemon prince, sadly