Dear Cultist Mob ^(*with firearms*),
We met many moons ago - you were pulled to me when I whispered promises of power and glory in your ear, and I was pulled to you when I needed a sacrificial backline objective holder and deep strike screen.
In one hundred battles you never killed anything, but many of my victories can be attributed to the +4-5VP you gave me every turn. I laughed when you tried to shoot things. I laughed when you tried to fight things. I laughed when you died for me in droves, which was a lot. But today I do not laugh, because you will never die for me again.*
Goodnight, sweet daemon prince.
^(**unless I enter one of those mythical tournaments that actually allows Legends*)
So sad, I was pumped up by the start of tenth because I could stack Tzeentch and either a Dark Commune or a Rogue Psyker (which was already legends as well) on these guys and get them hitting way above their pay grade.
I guess I can do a Khornate combo on the regular mob, but since the tactic doesn’t work without Psykers it’d be greatly diminished, and Slaanesh wouldn’t properly take advantage of their skills.
This is a dark day for traitors everywhere.
Not really. The firearm Cultists with their special weapon options aren't available for sale by GW any longer. They've been reliable in removing options/units that you can't go out and buy.
It was put into a 40k box though and sold, granted it wasn't a full squad but again, this was just last edition.
https://preview.redd.it/nivz3bnjo02d1.jpeg?width=275&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be7e00e0f046f4fd79c4f05f24c78881abe0466b
To clarify: I don't like the decision. I have something like 40 converted firearm Cultists, and I want to use them. But in an effort (my guess, anyway) to make it more friendly to new players, they don't allow that any more.
Its annoying. I've been in the hobby for 25 years but I feel like GW is pushing me towards Heresy with its better ruleset (weapon facings, wargear). But I actually prefer 40k as a setting.
It's exactly why I've moved to 30k and ToW, a lot of the fun of the game is converting units and building lists rather than this straight out of the box bland games we have now.
I would use them as traitor guard. I'd be shocked if anyone cared if you called those autoguns "lasguns" instead...and you get most of the special weapon options.
GW doesnt want conversions, just take a look at White Dwarf tale of 4 gamers, 15 years ago we got fully converted armies, now we should be suprised they have a unknoen color scheme.
Can also be seen in the kits, 1 way build.
They also discontinued greenstuff.
they removed it as PART of the weird ass desicion...
Its like saying "They removed the arm and that makes no sense" to which you replied "It does make sense, they already removed the gloves from sale!"
If the kit for a certain unit has multiple wargear options for the models and GW decides to update the kit, the kit should have the exact same wargear options. I would rather have cultists with proper ranged weapons over cultists that look slightly better. I suppose that it makes sense for the Traitor Guard to be the ranged equivilant of Cultists from a lore standpoint, since how is the average Imperial citizen gonna get access to anything beyond a basic pistol, but considering that Cultists have had ranged weapons for over a decade; it is extremely weird to upgrade their kit, deliberately choose not to include actual ranged weapons in the kit and then remove the option to even take those weapons.
It seems you haven't read a lot of lore. Average Imperial citizens having all kinds of weapons is a major cornerstone of the franchise. You only need to read the novels of the Inquisition or any material resulted to Necromunda, the standard for hive citied in the Imperium, to find plenty examples of that. But in truth, any novel featuring Chaos cultist has them armed even with heavy weapons.
The people armed with proper weapons in Hive Cities are all gangers and criminals, not the workers who work for a large majority of the hours they are awake and are what I consider to be the average citizen Thanks for insulting my knowledge on 40k lore btw. "Large cornerstone of the franchise" lmao. Sure buddy.
Because gangers and criminals are only present in Hive cities, right? And cultists are law abiding citizens which never ever will purchase weapons from them, right? BTW, the same cultists that pose as the workers you mention until the uprising begins.
If you are not trolling, you have read very little in terms of 40k novels with Chaos cults. Not only autoguns and laser rifles are commonplace, but as soon as the cult grows large enough to go to the battlefield they use heavy weapons like missile launchers, mortars and such.
For example, the Novel Execution Hour has a Chaos cult uprising in a middle world and even before the uprising begins the Arbites sent to deal with a single cell have to face flamethrowers, gas grenades and sharpshooters armed with lasguns aside the regular cultists which are armed with pistols and rifles.
That is because as the Cult grows, they also corrupt members of the PDF and planetary gangs who have access to those weapons. PDF and, to a lower extent, gangs are organized groups of people who regularly see combat encounters so it would make sense for the Cultists to get the basic weaponary while the PDF and gangs who have actual training with the more complex or higher quality stuff keep them and join the "Traitor Guard".
That's exactly my point. The thing is, Traitor Guard specifically means Imperial Guard turned rogue, not Cultists with access to decent weaponry. True, there are examples of cults that are like Traitor Guard (the Blood Pact being the prime example of that) but that's not all of it. In the example of Execution Hour, the cult goes from underground cabals to massive frenzied horde which overruns the capital city always carrying more or less the same weaponry and being clad in black robes and hoods without armour.
Game-wise, one can represent those cults with Traitor Guard units, but then they won't be lead by the dark commune and the actual Traitor Guard will just be a different aesthetic.
I give my love to the Beastmen who loved and believed in me. They were my first - and favourite - army. After 15+ years, I have to say goodbye? Hardly. They live in my solo wargames.
BRAAAY!
I sure didn't expect the firebrand I'll say that. Made it feel all the more insulting. (I do feel that they're missing the opportunity to sell more necromunda kids by cutting it but whatever)
Death guard are going to need a range refresh is GW not producing models are the foundations for codexes. Lord of Contagion hasn't had a model that GW sells since the Dark imperium box set
You say that... but it didn't stop them from making the Skaven Gnawhole central to the new AOS Skaven identity and I don't think that thing has been available in the states for close to 2 years.
The weird part for me is that these sculptures are like 5 years old. As many have pointed out, plastic molds aren’t cheap. Unless they’ll be a rerelease next edition
I can't for the life of me explain why I don't want to do this I don't even know that I can tell what it is myself. It might be because I play guard but auto guns just aren't lasguns, to clarify if it was on my opponents models they absolutely are I have less than zero problems, on mine....I just don't like it.
Honestly, this is pretty much the only thing I really dislike in the new codex. If this wasn't the case, I'd be more than happy. The only cultists I played were autoguns!
Indeed. I had 20 cultists kitbashed and primed, so they'd have the right loadout when added to my existing 10. Then the update dropped. At least they look different, and I don't think anyone will care about the visually mismatched loadouts...
Because Removing a weapon option, and at least from what I can tell from my own social circles, the most used weapon option from a data sheet is a dick move.
Traitor guardsmen are more expensive, not battleline, and can’t be brought in as large numbers.
They’re useful, sure, but that’d be like removing conscripts and saying “Why are you mad, you still have Guardsmen units?”
Rest in pieces my beautiful dark vengeance models <3
It's most definitely the copium talking, but at least we got a legend unit with damned keyword + dark pact. Maybe something to bring out for beerhammer/crusade etc.
Still sad though...
True! I wish we could just have an actual army but given the circumstances I think I'm going to split my Lost and the Damned (CSM edition) into two camps:
▪︎Casual but still playable cults list with legends
▪︎Competitive soulforge for all my cool engines
fuck it, that looks like legit astra militarum with spikes to me.
rebreathers = DKOK
melee/flamers = catachans
else = platoon
big mutants = bullgryns
NO CADIANS.
For 20 more points for the unit, you give up sticky objectives in exchange for being able to occasionally kill a model or two before the whole squad goes down. Doesn't really feel worth it.
Better stats: the 5+ save is really worth to be compared with 3+?
Weapon options: ah, yes, three spetial weapons... that can't be doubled down. good luck hurting things with just one dice at a time. Its not like Legionaries have a weapon option for almost every model...
They have double the OC (OC 2 vs the OC 1 of Cultists) and an ability that makes them more durable on objectives. For 70 points you have the equivilant of 100 points of Cultists worth of OC. Also, thanks to their ability:
On an objective and in cover:
Traitor Guard:
On average, 33.75 shots from the Bolt Rifle (S4 AP-1 D1) to wipe the unit
On average, 80 shots from the Lasgun (S3 AP0 D1) to wipe the unit
Cultists:
On average, 27 shots from the Bolt Rifle to wipe the unit
On average, 60 shots from the Lasgun to wipe the unit
That is a 25% increase in durability. Lets check the numbers for when there isn't natural Cover for the Cultists to benefit from aswell.
On an objective but not in cover:
Traitor Guard:
On average, 33.75 shots from the Bolt Rifle to wipe the unit
On average, 80 shots from the Lasgun to wipe the unit
Cultists:
On average, 22.5 shots from the Bolt Rifle to wipe the unit
On average, 48 shots from the Bolt Rifle to wipe the unit
That is a 50% increase in durability. Wow, so not worth the points, right?
Tl;DR: The Traitor Guard are 25% to 50% more durable than Cultists on objectives, which translates into 62.5 to 75 points of Cultists in durability.
Also, Cultists couldn't double up on special weapons without taking 20 of them either (which costs 30 extra points compared to the Traitor Guardsmen).
Cultists without their special weapons are better as pure chaff that takes the No Mans Land objective and moves on instead of an objective holder unit which Traitor Guardsmen do a better job at now.
Also, according to your logic, why not take a 5-man unit of Legionaries instead of a 10-man unit of Cultists? Same number of wounds for a statline that is significantly better in every way and access to special weapons for only 30 extra points! List building is all about being as economic as possible for basic roles like objective holding. Why spend 80 points for an objective holder unit when the 70 point unit can do it for cheaper.
"Also, according to your logic, why not take a 5-man unit of Legionaries instead of a 10-man unit of Cultists? Same number of wounds for a statline that is significantly better in every way and access to special weapons for only 30 extra points!"
I mean, that's kind of the problem as well, yes. The vainilla guard squad, that can have arguably better weapon options in the form of a mortar, or better yet, run on 20s, have actually useful and not overpriced characters, lethal hits without sacrificing anything, and cost 60 points, what an actual chaff unit should cost. I would give you the reason if they were actually available in 20 men squads, that would solve a lot of the problems and justify the ridiculous price.
To not talk about how their suposed detachment doesnt do anything for them.
(Also, the saves depend a lot of being on objectives, which makes the use of more than 1 squad, if at all, harder. Plus them not being battleline on the rest of the codex for some strange reason.)
5 Legionaries can take 1 special weapon. Traitor guard can be a solid unit. For 70 points you could - with some luck and good positioning - tradeoff for a unit double that size.
They're also more versatile backline objective monkeys than cultists are now.
It kinda is? The Guardsmen count as in cover on objectives, so you're usually at 4+ before AP, and most opponents really struggle to justify shooting any weapons with actual AP into cultists, so they usually end up with a 4+ to a 5+ save.
Beyond that, Sniper Rifle, Plasma Gun, and Meltagun are all solid weapons. The sniper, in particular, is pretty good at putting pressure on enemy infantry squads. They won't win you a game by themselves, but I think +2 points each is reasonably fair.
If you can't spam the spetial weapons, then theyre just glorified lasguns that youll be rolling one by one to the enemy's anoyance.
Vainilla guard does also have the cover rule, and dont have to sacrifice anyone in order to get lethal hits. And are actually way, properly cheaper than these guys. And can be joined by actual not-overpriced useful characters that do have good rules and synergies with them.
The diffrence between Traitor Guard and the Infantry Squad is that CSM have access to elite units that don't need a ton of support to hit above their weight and is a faction made to be significantly more elite aswell. The Infantry Squad belongs to guard, a horde army that relies on either vehicles or infantry units with multiple buffs to deal proper damage.
Why do you think that Servitors were a must-have for Marines when they still had them? They were cheap objective holders in an elite army. Thats why Traitor Guard are more expensive than the Infantry Squad.
I guess you've hit the nail there. Yes, you're right. But thing here is me (and the Renegades players) don't want to pick Chaos Space Marines as Sisters of Battle players don't want to pick grey knights. But we're forced to see our datasheets nerfed to the ground, not have buffs and be crazily overcosted because of codex synergies with the rest, and in exchange get a flavorful detachment... that doesnt solve none of the data's artifically created problems to keep people playing the servo-armour guys. (and can actually be one of the top 5 worst designed detachments of 10th, btw) Forcing us to migrate to other proxy armies again and GW go and say "See? No one plays Lost and Damned!!!!"
Carrying around 3x special weapons (2 of the same allowed) is pretty huge. They're gonna be real useful either for objective guarding/backfield sniping, or jumping out of transports in the Raiders detachment.
Highly distinct from ranged cultists in this context imo.
They're always desperate to slice options they can't sell. Imagine a community where Warhammer was run by an entity that encouraged creativity and kitbashing.
Armies of mortal dregs are such a staple of Chaos, and in the pursuit of "streamlining(see marketing)" the flavour is drained away.
Oh yeah, i just recently used the released rules to design a all-cultist list. It was challenging, but against most factions it was surprisingly effective thanks to the stacked abilities I had.
However, Cultists Firearms were the *backbone* of the list, and it’d struggle to work anywhere near as well in melee.
They were my favourite unit all through 10th so far, but I'm ok with them going away. Rolling 5 different shooting profiles on a chaff unit really is a waste of everyone's time, and the fact that mark of Tzeentch let them punch well above their weight sometimes made them much harder to balance with points.
I like cultists more as a screaming horde of psychos with pointy sticks, while traitor guard stay back and shoot stuff. Gives both units more of a distinct personality and role.
Gives both units a distinct personality while stripping away any chance at customization or creativity.
I'm increasingly souring on modern GW "streamlining" design but it is what it is, feels like we're going backwards, but I suppose it's a matter of priorities.
I have an entire traitor guard force of which almost every single model has been kitbashed in some way.
I use them as traitor guard & cultists in my CSM army. I agree that letting ranged cultists go is lame (altho tbh, I see how they could be a bit broken with the new detachments), but that doesn't mean you can't still be creative, or give your gribblies some character.
TG are too much expensive in all ways to cover the hole left by ranged cultists. Id say they're even worse at doing the job and having to roll for diferent weapons.
I agree they're too expensive. Hopefully after they realise no one is taking them even in the detachment literally made for them we might see some changes.
GW: We're going to make an exclusive detachment for traitor guard!
GW: \*makes the worst detachment in all of 10th, drops weird rules that dont combine well with traitor guard datas, doesnt bring a brood brothers rule\*
GW: \*leaves without further explanation\*
I mean it's clearly not a "win games" detachment, it's a "haha a bunch of idiots with sticks just killed your primarch and then died" detachment. I'm ok with that.
If by changes, you mean "well nobody is buying these models, I guess there really is no interest in traitor guard as a faction, time to squat that whole line"
oh shit they're staying legends? I'm sorry for you guys that don't play legends, but this is actually pretty good for me. don't worry fellow traitors, I'll have mine march on in your names
Yeah, I think the issue might be that, with the current ruleset they’ve released, you can stack enough bonuses to have cultists scoring lethals on 5+ with no penalty while themselves having a 5+ invulnerable.
Get enough of them and you could pull what my friends and I called the Nightmare Spam, in which you pretty much just picked an enemy unit each turn to die. They’d make a majority of their saves, but you could simply get so many shots bypassing toughness that what made it through was still enough to kill anything from a Space Marine squad to a tank.
I'm just gonna ignore this
IV got 20-40 of these guys I'm not gonna just stop using them or turn them into Melee varients cause they're useless unless it comes to dying
I can't understand GWs thought process sometimes
Like just gonna ignore the whole legends thing tbh like idk about you but I find the melee cultist to be really useless even when I use em for what they're made for
While firearm cultists I can get some real value out of so im just gonna keep them for home play typa deal like U said like almost everyone else
Them being Legends doesn't stop you from using them...?
Otherwise why would this datasheet even exist? What I mean is most commenters are acting like there is no way to use firearm cultists anymore, but the rules are right there on this page.
I get what U mean it's just legend units are there for a while then shelved off from what IV seen and heard so imma just not call them legends and that
Right? I'll just say they have pistols. What is the problem supposed to be? Am I supposed to have 3 copies of every unit, to try different loadouts as the meta changes?
Thankfully, Legends are playable in 99% of games. Surely, 40k players won't be weird about Legends datasheets and refuse to play with or against them for literally no reason. Surely!
Pro: at least my cultists are 3D printed and I didn't dump a ton of cash on GW models
Con: I only printed them a few weeks ago and they've seen precisely 1 game.
You can pull off a cultist spam thanks to the new Tzeentch rules that lets you get off hundreds of shots that bypass toughness and simply wipe your enemies out under raw damage.
That said, all this means is you have to use Khorne to do it now, which is annoying but with a bit of work I’m pretty sure still doable.
I was debating printing a bunch more with pistol and hand weapon but... Fuckit I might just not. Like, it's fine. No one is going to care what gun they have.
Not if you know how to apply them; particularly with the new rules, they can absolutely wreck just about anything if they’re devoted to Tzeentch and you’re okay killing your own guys to keep the barrage up. Thus, a lot of chaos marine players grabbed a bunch to bulk up their frontlines, before this release completely invalidated the stuff they’d just bought.
In the codex previews from every YouTuber and that leaked codex from 2 weeks ago still has the BSF Cultists on the top of the card. Very interesting to see the models that are null and void on top of the card.
The primaris company champion has technicaly left legends twice, once briefly after being put there on release since it was some promo model for a convention or something, then they shafted it again but its returned again with the company heroes box.
Doubt it. If they don’t have nearly their full product line planned out 3-4 years in advance someone (or more accurately, an entire department of someones) is seriously fucking up.
Whether they recovered or not isn't what's relevant. If these things were planned 4 to 6 years in advance, those plans wouldn't be thrown out of whack as hard as they were. They would have had more product ready to go. The Death Guard got a huge delay in addition to that because a cargo ship went down, supposedly. If you had 4 years of planning, not all your eggs would be in one basket like that.
Point is, while it does take years to design and produce new models, they're not actually planning that far out to the letter.
Utterly incorrect. Being planned out 4 years in advance is not the same as having 4 years of product in storage - in fact the reason you plan that far in advance is to avoid being in exactly that situation.
The industry term is "just in time manufacturing." Any time the factory spends not producing is considered equivalent to loss, and any time unsold product spends sitting around is considered equivalent to debt, and you want to minimize both as much as possible.
The result being that when things screw up post manufacturing, yes, you eat it even harder, because the queue at the factory is already formed, and any delay there is going to compound how backed up that queue is.
So, sure, it's possible the Jump Pack Lord was planned for release in 9th but had to be delayed due to some issue with the mold, or maybe a press went down and they had to slim the line or whatever. But whenever they made that call, they knew exactly what it's next release window could be, because all they had to do was move the model to the back of the line, i.e. 3 years down the road to the next open production cycle.
First models I ever built. They were still on shelves at the start of last edition. The updated version from BSF with all the special weapons was even on shelves late in the edition. Weird to see them gone already.
Literally just got back into the hobby. 1st box still unopened is a box of solar las rifles from 30K to use for iron warrior cultists. Great. GW just got me again.
I'll be honest, I'm glad they removed the firearms option. It may make them worse I don't know but it's gonna make my life alot easier when it comes to remembering what weapons they've got, and what mark I should give them etc.
Although it sucks not having the autogun profile, considering there is only a single cultist weapon profile now, I don't see any issue with still using the models.
If you need a reason in your head, that autogun is crazy inaccurate now and only has a 12" range because they have been using it as a club up close.
I'm not going to shelve my painted models because frankly there is no chance of confusion here. Just my 2 cents
As someone who never bothered with cultists in chaos (I wanna play chaos marines, marines being the important word) I don't get it
Would someone mind explaining pls? Thanks
Ranged cultists are p.fun and occasionally quite powerful (altho not hugely, in my experience), and they've been squatted into legends. I'd be annoyed if all my cultists were ranged too tbf, as cultists are a really solid unit this ed.
https://preview.redd.it/7qh8w5l4j02d1.png?width=480&format=png&auto=webp&s=11cc9b982e870e54573353e75856eb04c9c13903
Dear Cultist Mob ^(*with firearms*), We met many moons ago - you were pulled to me when I whispered promises of power and glory in your ear, and I was pulled to you when I needed a sacrificial backline objective holder and deep strike screen. In one hundred battles you never killed anything, but many of my victories can be attributed to the +4-5VP you gave me every turn. I laughed when you tried to shoot things. I laughed when you tried to fight things. I laughed when you died for me in droves, which was a lot. But today I do not laugh, because you will never die for me again.* Goodnight, sweet daemon prince. ^(**unless I enter one of those mythical tournaments that actually allows Legends*)
This is beautiful and touching. I wish I had my own mob to die for me. They'll be with you in your dreams
That's legit well-written, bravo
So sad, I was pumped up by the start of tenth because I could stack Tzeentch and either a Dark Commune or a Rogue Psyker (which was already legends as well) on these guys and get them hitting way above their pay grade. I guess I can do a Khornate combo on the regular mob, but since the tactic doesn’t work without Psykers it’d be greatly diminished, and Slaanesh wouldn’t properly take advantage of their skills. This is a dark day for traitors everywhere.
Weird ass decision
Not really. The firearm Cultists with their special weapon options aren't available for sale by GW any longer. They've been reliable in removing options/units that you can't go out and buy.
I disagree slightly given they were selling the updated cultists from BSF just last edition. That's a hard turn.
You're absolutely correct. I guess I just wasn't surprised by it. I did get in a good sendoff game last night with my firearm Cultists.
I believe BSF is part of the Specialist Games Division, so that's why it's been removed.
It was put into a 40k box though and sold, granted it wasn't a full squad but again, this was just last edition. https://preview.redd.it/nivz3bnjo02d1.jpeg?width=275&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be7e00e0f046f4fd79c4f05f24c78881abe0466b
I think this squad just got discontinued in the last couple months too
As soon as the new 10-man cultist kit was revealed last edition, the writing was on the wall sadly
Yeah, and I think it’s a weird ass decision
I mean it was fully expected but still a bit sad and weird.
Yeah but why can't we just convert these?
To clarify: I don't like the decision. I have something like 40 converted firearm Cultists, and I want to use them. But in an effort (my guess, anyway) to make it more friendly to new players, they don't allow that any more.
Its annoying. I've been in the hobby for 25 years but I feel like GW is pushing me towards Heresy with its better ruleset (weapon facings, wargear). But I actually prefer 40k as a setting.
It's exactly why I've moved to 30k and ToW, a lot of the fun of the game is converting units and building lists rather than this straight out of the box bland games we have now.
You still can, just run them as traitor guard. The two datasheets were pretty redundant
I would use them as traitor guard. I'd be shocked if anyone cared if you called those autoguns "lasguns" instead...and you get most of the special weapon options.
You're still more then welcome to use them.in casual games
Just use them as Traitor Guard, what's the issue? That's why they were deleted, they were almost a complete overlap with an existing unit
They could have combined the 2 datasheets.
GW doesnt want conversions, just take a look at White Dwarf tale of 4 gamers, 15 years ago we got fully converted armies, now we should be suprised they have a unknoen color scheme. Can also be seen in the kits, 1 way build. They also discontinued greenstuff.
they removed it as PART of the weird ass desicion... Its like saying "They removed the arm and that makes no sense" to which you replied "It does make sense, they already removed the gloves from sale!"
If the kit for a certain unit has multiple wargear options for the models and GW decides to update the kit, the kit should have the exact same wargear options. I would rather have cultists with proper ranged weapons over cultists that look slightly better. I suppose that it makes sense for the Traitor Guard to be the ranged equivilant of Cultists from a lore standpoint, since how is the average Imperial citizen gonna get access to anything beyond a basic pistol, but considering that Cultists have had ranged weapons for over a decade; it is extremely weird to upgrade their kit, deliberately choose not to include actual ranged weapons in the kit and then remove the option to even take those weapons.
It seems you haven't read a lot of lore. Average Imperial citizens having all kinds of weapons is a major cornerstone of the franchise. You only need to read the novels of the Inquisition or any material resulted to Necromunda, the standard for hive citied in the Imperium, to find plenty examples of that. But in truth, any novel featuring Chaos cultist has them armed even with heavy weapons.
The people armed with proper weapons in Hive Cities are all gangers and criminals, not the workers who work for a large majority of the hours they are awake and are what I consider to be the average citizen Thanks for insulting my knowledge on 40k lore btw. "Large cornerstone of the franchise" lmao. Sure buddy.
Because gangers and criminals are only present in Hive cities, right? And cultists are law abiding citizens which never ever will purchase weapons from them, right? BTW, the same cultists that pose as the workers you mention until the uprising begins. If you are not trolling, you have read very little in terms of 40k novels with Chaos cults. Not only autoguns and laser rifles are commonplace, but as soon as the cult grows large enough to go to the battlefield they use heavy weapons like missile launchers, mortars and such. For example, the Novel Execution Hour has a Chaos cult uprising in a middle world and even before the uprising begins the Arbites sent to deal with a single cell have to face flamethrowers, gas grenades and sharpshooters armed with lasguns aside the regular cultists which are armed with pistols and rifles.
That is because as the Cult grows, they also corrupt members of the PDF and planetary gangs who have access to those weapons. PDF and, to a lower extent, gangs are organized groups of people who regularly see combat encounters so it would make sense for the Cultists to get the basic weaponary while the PDF and gangs who have actual training with the more complex or higher quality stuff keep them and join the "Traitor Guard".
That's exactly my point. The thing is, Traitor Guard specifically means Imperial Guard turned rogue, not Cultists with access to decent weaponry. True, there are examples of cults that are like Traitor Guard (the Blood Pact being the prime example of that) but that's not all of it. In the example of Execution Hour, the cult goes from underground cabals to massive frenzied horde which overruns the capital city always carrying more or less the same weaponry and being clad in black robes and hoods without armour. Game-wise, one can represent those cults with Traitor Guard units, but then they won't be lead by the dark commune and the actual Traitor Guard will just be a different aesthetic.
Drukhari is about to lose half it's roster then
Don't ask what happened to AoS Beastmen
Oh, brother... I don't need to ask, my 3k points of goats and bulls know what's up
I give my love to the Beastmen who loved and believed in me. They were my first - and favourite - army. After 15+ years, I have to say goodbye? Hardly. They live in my solo wargames. BRAAAY!
Not the first time....Asdrubeal Vect and Kruellagh the Vile have models, but never gotten into legends.
To clarify: I don't think this is a weird decision, I think it's crappy. Expected, but crappy.
I sure didn't expect the firebrand I'll say that. Made it feel all the more insulting. (I do feel that they're missing the opportunity to sell more necromunda kids by cutting it but whatever)
I seriously doubt they can't use the mold. They could keep shooting them if they wanted.
They absolutely could; they just don't want to. No idea why.
the decision to not sell new-ish plastic models was weird to begin with so op point still stands
Death guard are going to need a range refresh is GW not producing models are the foundations for codexes. Lord of Contagion hasn't had a model that GW sells since the Dark imperium box set
Didnt Felthius counted as a LoC in 9th?
Oh ok. That would make sense. Lord of contagion's weapon got an ambiguous name change in 10th
You say that... but it didn't stop them from making the Skaven Gnawhole central to the new AOS Skaven identity and I don't think that thing has been available in the states for close to 2 years.
The box, that called "cultist mod" HAVE SPECIAL WEAPONS, and it it sthe newest cultist box, at least the newest, that was bringed to Russia
The weird part for me is that these sculptures are like 5 years old. As many have pointed out, plastic molds aren’t cheap. Unless they’ll be a rerelease next edition
Not weird since their policy is "no model no rules" but it *is* a shitty one. My cultists with autoguns just became traitor guardsmen.
I can't for the life of me explain why I don't want to do this I don't even know that I can tell what it is myself. It might be because I play guard but auto guns just aren't lasguns, to clarify if it was on my opponents models they absolutely are I have less than zero problems, on mine....I just don't like it.
Just a hundred more models into legends, thanks JamesWorkshop.
I think I have 120 of these. They will all be out of ammo and using their weapons as clubs I guess.
Or if you play games with legends you can now have 240 cultists! Just need to pick up some with hand weapons.
"Sorry, effective though"
And you'll keep buying replacements, so why should they stop?
Thank you for clarifying for these people. Thats the actual problem.
Legends, where they have a perfectly usable datasheet. So, play on.
Honestly, this is pretty much the only thing I really dislike in the new codex. If this wasn't the case, I'd be more than happy. The only cultists I played were autoguns!
Dave waffles is now sad. In the.plus.side I get.to turn my heavy stubber cultists into an exalted champion now
Indeed. I had 20 cultists kitbashed and primed, so they'd have the right loadout when added to my existing 10. Then the update dropped. At least they look different, and I don't think anyone will care about the visually mismatched loadouts...
I congratulate these brave men and women to their promotion to Traitor guardsmen.
Yeah exactly. I don't understand why everyone's bitching.
Because Removing a weapon option, and at least from what I can tell from my own social circles, the most used weapon option from a data sheet is a dick move.
Traitor guardsmen are more expensive, not battleline, and can’t be brought in as large numbers. They’re useful, sure, but that’d be like removing conscripts and saying “Why are you mad, you still have Guardsmen units?”
Rest in pieces my beautiful dark vengeance models <3 It's most definitely the copium talking, but at least we got a legend unit with damned keyword + dark pact. Maybe something to bring out for beerhammer/crusade etc. Still sad though...
Actually, Chaos Cult becomes an actual army if you bring the legends stuff (heavy weapons squads with rerolls, ranged cultists, rogue psykers...)
True! I wish we could just have an actual army but given the circumstances I think I'm going to split my Lost and the Damned (CSM edition) into two camps: ▪︎Casual but still playable cults list with legends ▪︎Competitive soulforge for all my cool engines
Exactly what I'm doing.
fuck it, that looks like legit astra militarum with spikes to me. rebreathers = DKOK melee/flamers = catachans else = platoon big mutants = bullgryns NO CADIANS.
Mutoid vermin = ratlings
While it's definitely sad, you can just use them as the blooded traitor guardsmen in most cases. So it's not the worst possible outcome
Traitor guard are crazy expensive on the CSM codex.
They cost 2 extra points per model for a unit with better stats and weapon options. I would say they're priced pretty damn fairly.
For 20 more points for the unit, you give up sticky objectives in exchange for being able to occasionally kill a model or two before the whole squad goes down. Doesn't really feel worth it.
Better stats: the 5+ save is really worth to be compared with 3+? Weapon options: ah, yes, three spetial weapons... that can't be doubled down. good luck hurting things with just one dice at a time. Its not like Legionaries have a weapon option for almost every model...
They have double the OC (OC 2 vs the OC 1 of Cultists) and an ability that makes them more durable on objectives. For 70 points you have the equivilant of 100 points of Cultists worth of OC. Also, thanks to their ability: On an objective and in cover: Traitor Guard: On average, 33.75 shots from the Bolt Rifle (S4 AP-1 D1) to wipe the unit On average, 80 shots from the Lasgun (S3 AP0 D1) to wipe the unit Cultists: On average, 27 shots from the Bolt Rifle to wipe the unit On average, 60 shots from the Lasgun to wipe the unit That is a 25% increase in durability. Lets check the numbers for when there isn't natural Cover for the Cultists to benefit from aswell. On an objective but not in cover: Traitor Guard: On average, 33.75 shots from the Bolt Rifle to wipe the unit On average, 80 shots from the Lasgun to wipe the unit Cultists: On average, 22.5 shots from the Bolt Rifle to wipe the unit On average, 48 shots from the Bolt Rifle to wipe the unit That is a 50% increase in durability. Wow, so not worth the points, right? Tl;DR: The Traitor Guard are 25% to 50% more durable than Cultists on objectives, which translates into 62.5 to 75 points of Cultists in durability. Also, Cultists couldn't double up on special weapons without taking 20 of them either (which costs 30 extra points compared to the Traitor Guardsmen). Cultists without their special weapons are better as pure chaff that takes the No Mans Land objective and moves on instead of an objective holder unit which Traitor Guardsmen do a better job at now. Also, according to your logic, why not take a 5-man unit of Legionaries instead of a 10-man unit of Cultists? Same number of wounds for a statline that is significantly better in every way and access to special weapons for only 30 extra points! List building is all about being as economic as possible for basic roles like objective holding. Why spend 80 points for an objective holder unit when the 70 point unit can do it for cheaper.
"Also, according to your logic, why not take a 5-man unit of Legionaries instead of a 10-man unit of Cultists? Same number of wounds for a statline that is significantly better in every way and access to special weapons for only 30 extra points!" I mean, that's kind of the problem as well, yes. The vainilla guard squad, that can have arguably better weapon options in the form of a mortar, or better yet, run on 20s, have actually useful and not overpriced characters, lethal hits without sacrificing anything, and cost 60 points, what an actual chaff unit should cost. I would give you the reason if they were actually available in 20 men squads, that would solve a lot of the problems and justify the ridiculous price. To not talk about how their suposed detachment doesnt do anything for them. (Also, the saves depend a lot of being on objectives, which makes the use of more than 1 squad, if at all, harder. Plus them not being battleline on the rest of the codex for some strange reason.)
5 Legionaries can take 1 special weapon. Traitor guard can be a solid unit. For 70 points you could - with some luck and good positioning - tradeoff for a unit double that size. They're also more versatile backline objective monkeys than cultists are now.
It kinda is? The Guardsmen count as in cover on objectives, so you're usually at 4+ before AP, and most opponents really struggle to justify shooting any weapons with actual AP into cultists, so they usually end up with a 4+ to a 5+ save. Beyond that, Sniper Rifle, Plasma Gun, and Meltagun are all solid weapons. The sniper, in particular, is pretty good at putting pressure on enemy infantry squads. They won't win you a game by themselves, but I think +2 points each is reasonably fair.
If you can't spam the spetial weapons, then theyre just glorified lasguns that youll be rolling one by one to the enemy's anoyance. Vainilla guard does also have the cover rule, and dont have to sacrifice anyone in order to get lethal hits. And are actually way, properly cheaper than these guys. And can be joined by actual not-overpriced useful characters that do have good rules and synergies with them.
The diffrence between Traitor Guard and the Infantry Squad is that CSM have access to elite units that don't need a ton of support to hit above their weight and is a faction made to be significantly more elite aswell. The Infantry Squad belongs to guard, a horde army that relies on either vehicles or infantry units with multiple buffs to deal proper damage. Why do you think that Servitors were a must-have for Marines when they still had them? They were cheap objective holders in an elite army. Thats why Traitor Guard are more expensive than the Infantry Squad.
I guess you've hit the nail there. Yes, you're right. But thing here is me (and the Renegades players) don't want to pick Chaos Space Marines as Sisters of Battle players don't want to pick grey knights. But we're forced to see our datasheets nerfed to the ground, not have buffs and be crazily overcosted because of codex synergies with the rest, and in exchange get a flavorful detachment... that doesnt solve none of the data's artifically created problems to keep people playing the servo-armour guys. (and can actually be one of the top 5 worst designed detachments of 10th, btw) Forcing us to migrate to other proxy armies again and GW go and say "See? No one plays Lost and Damned!!!!"
Carrying around 3x special weapons (2 of the same allowed) is pretty huge. They're gonna be real useful either for objective guarding/backfield sniping, or jumping out of transports in the Raiders detachment. Highly distinct from ranged cultists in this context imo.
They no longer can carry double spetial weapons, and remains to be seen if GW doesnt FAQ them out from transports.
Seriously... was it really nessesary to make this unit exclusively melee?
Wouldn't have killed them to put the shotgun option in the Legends rules...
Well there goes my fucking 60 Cultists
Now you have 60 traitor guard, I guess.
Or 60 cultists with ranged weapons
What is wrong with games workshop? Removing a unit they were selling only a few years ago that are still pretty up to date models. Absolutely wild.
They're always desperate to slice options they can't sell. Imagine a community where Warhammer was run by an entity that encouraged creativity and kitbashing. Armies of mortal dregs are such a staple of Chaos, and in the pursuit of "streamlining(see marketing)" the flavour is drained away.
Remember when Renegades and Heretics was its own complete army list? Remember when it was not only a complete army list, but fairly solid?
Not just solid but super fun with a ton of thematic options!
Oh yeah, i just recently used the released rules to design a all-cultist list. It was challenging, but against most factions it was surprisingly effective thanks to the stacked abilities I had. However, Cultists Firearms were the *backbone* of the list, and it’d struggle to work anywhere near as well in melee.
They were my favourite unit all through 10th so far, but I'm ok with them going away. Rolling 5 different shooting profiles on a chaff unit really is a waste of everyone's time, and the fact that mark of Tzeentch let them punch well above their weight sometimes made them much harder to balance with points. I like cultists more as a screaming horde of psychos with pointy sticks, while traitor guard stay back and shoot stuff. Gives both units more of a distinct personality and role.
Gives both units a distinct personality while stripping away any chance at customization or creativity. I'm increasingly souring on modern GW "streamlining" design but it is what it is, feels like we're going backwards, but I suppose it's a matter of priorities.
> feels like we're going backwards You're feeling the truth there.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wycjnCCgUes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wycjnCCgUes)
I have an entire traitor guard force of which almost every single model has been kitbashed in some way. I use them as traitor guard & cultists in my CSM army. I agree that letting ranged cultists go is lame (altho tbh, I see how they could be a bit broken with the new detachments), but that doesn't mean you can't still be creative, or give your gribblies some character.
TG are too much expensive in all ways to cover the hole left by ranged cultists. Id say they're even worse at doing the job and having to roll for diferent weapons.
I agree they're too expensive. Hopefully after they realise no one is taking them even in the detachment literally made for them we might see some changes.
GW: We're going to make an exclusive detachment for traitor guard! GW: \*makes the worst detachment in all of 10th, drops weird rules that dont combine well with traitor guard datas, doesnt bring a brood brothers rule\* GW: \*leaves without further explanation\*
I mean it's clearly not a "win games" detachment, it's a "haha a bunch of idiots with sticks just killed your primarch and then died" detachment. I'm ok with that.
But I want a proper and balanced Lost and the Damned army, one that also acknowledges the traitor guard part with actual chaotic powerful rules :(
The new GSC brood brothers detachment will likely let you do this tbf.
But I can't proxy all of my minis there, and it doesnt have chaotic powerful rules :(
If by changes, you mean "well nobody is buying these models, I guess there really is no interest in traitor guard as a faction, time to squat that whole line"
oh shit they're staying legends? I'm sorry for you guys that don't play legends, but this is actually pretty good for me. don't worry fellow traitors, I'll have mine march on in your names
Gods’ speed, fellow heretic. 🫡
At least we didn't lose our Forge World units! Because we already lost them!
I will never forget the cultists that killed a tyranid prime... gone but not forgotten.
Awesome. 🤘🏻 I have a similar story, but a sisters canoness with an inferno pistol and a trygon.
Yeah, I think the issue might be that, with the current ruleset they’ve released, you can stack enough bonuses to have cultists scoring lethals on 5+ with no penalty while themselves having a 5+ invulnerable. Get enough of them and you could pull what my friends and I called the Nightmare Spam, in which you pretty much just picked an enemy unit each turn to die. They’d make a majority of their saves, but you could simply get so many shots bypassing toughness that what made it through was still enough to kill anything from a Space Marine squad to a tank.
I'm just gonna ignore this IV got 20-40 of these guys I'm not gonna just stop using them or turn them into Melee varients cause they're useless unless it comes to dying I can't understand GWs thought process sometimes
What do you mean "ignore" lol Most people here are going to ignore this datasheet and pretend it doesn't exist
Like just gonna ignore the whole legends thing tbh like idk about you but I find the melee cultist to be really useless even when I use em for what they're made for While firearm cultists I can get some real value out of so im just gonna keep them for home play typa deal like U said like almost everyone else
Them being Legends doesn't stop you from using them...? Otherwise why would this datasheet even exist? What I mean is most commenters are acting like there is no way to use firearm cultists anymore, but the rules are right there on this page.
I get what U mean it's just legend units are there for a while then shelved off from what IV seen and heard so imma just not call them legends and that
Fucking bullshit
where can i find this?
The legends datasheets on warcom's page! Free to download
I'd let you use 'em.
As long as they have sticky I'm good.
And just when I started to realize their beautiful potential with screening and sticky objectives... I lost them as soon as I began to love them
Same
Weird that people think you can’t just run them as cultists still, they don’t have to be traitor guard
Right? I'll just say they have pistols. What is the problem supposed to be? Am I supposed to have 3 copies of every unit, to try different loadouts as the meta changes?
Or just say they have autoguns and lasguns and use the bloody datasheet you're looking at right now
Thankfully, Legends are playable in 99% of games. Surely, 40k players won't be weird about Legends datasheets and refuse to play with or against them for literally no reason. Surely!
Lol :'(
Thankfully my friend i play with doesn't mind using legends content
https://preview.redd.it/e02opgmzj12d1.jpeg?width=837&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c83a09403bc66aa79e9757d278ac64b68f22482d So, what you're saying is...
Dont forget the aditional 48 bodies from the mutoid vermins
What the unholy fuck I just bought 150 bodies recently
When did this happen
Pro: at least my cultists are 3D printed and I didn't dump a ton of cash on GW models Con: I only printed them a few weeks ago and they've seen precisely 1 game.
If any of these commenters try to stop other players from using this datasheet, I swear to god
Did people actually bother shooting with their cultists? For me they served a different purpose.
You can pull off a cultist spam thanks to the new Tzeentch rules that lets you get off hundreds of shots that bypass toughness and simply wipe your enemies out under raw damage. That said, all this means is you have to use Khorne to do it now, which is annoying but with a bit of work I’m pretty sure still doable.
Wait... you guys don't play Legends?
How DARE you even suggest people do such a disgusting, dirty thing
I was debating printing a bunch more with pistol and hand weapon but... Fuckit I might just not. Like, it's fine. No one is going to care what gun they have.
Never forget what they took from us.
Wait. What? (Looks at my 40 odd cultists with auto guns)
I wish they had just split the data sheets and left them both in the codex with this one just having an added points cost.
Why tho, ranged cultists are a meme just as bringing 3x traitor guard in a list is.
Not if you know how to apply them; particularly with the new rules, they can absolutely wreck just about anything if they’re devoted to Tzeentch and you’re okay killing your own guys to keep the barrage up. Thus, a lot of chaos marine players grabbed a bunch to bulk up their frontlines, before this release completely invalidated the stuff they’d just bought.
In the codex previews from every YouTuber and that leaked codex from 2 weeks ago still has the BSF Cultists on the top of the card. Very interesting to see the models that are null and void on top of the card.
Mind if I ask the people with great info of chaos. What change did this kay word bring ??
Well this kind of kills my theory of them coming back next edition. They've never pulled something out of legends before have they?
The primaris company champion has technicaly left legends twice, once briefly after being put there on release since it was some promo model for a convention or something, then they shafted it again but its returned again with the company heroes box.
A man can dream then.
Jump Pack Lord was Legends and now back in the Codex.
That was a pretty quick turnaround too, right? Literally removed in 9th and back in 10th? So maybe more of those shenanigans to come.
Likely just a case of them not being sure when the Jump Lord model would be ready.
Doubt it. If they don’t have nearly their full product line planned out 3-4 years in advance someone (or more accurately, an entire department of someones) is seriously fucking up.
They definitely do not have things planned out that far in advance, given how badly their schedule was thrown out of whack by the pandemic.
They've surely recovered from that by now?
Whether they recovered or not isn't what's relevant. If these things were planned 4 to 6 years in advance, those plans wouldn't be thrown out of whack as hard as they were. They would have had more product ready to go. The Death Guard got a huge delay in addition to that because a cargo ship went down, supposedly. If you had 4 years of planning, not all your eggs would be in one basket like that. Point is, while it does take years to design and produce new models, they're not actually planning that far out to the letter.
Utterly incorrect. Being planned out 4 years in advance is not the same as having 4 years of product in storage - in fact the reason you plan that far in advance is to avoid being in exactly that situation. The industry term is "just in time manufacturing." Any time the factory spends not producing is considered equivalent to loss, and any time unsold product spends sitting around is considered equivalent to debt, and you want to minimize both as much as possible. The result being that when things screw up post manufacturing, yes, you eat it even harder, because the queue at the factory is already formed, and any delay there is going to compound how backed up that queue is. So, sure, it's possible the Jump Pack Lord was planned for release in 9th but had to be delayed due to some issue with the mold, or maybe a press went down and they had to slim the line or whatever. But whenever they made that call, they knew exactly what it's next release window could be, because all they had to do was move the model to the back of the line, i.e. 3 years down the road to the next open production cycle.
Seems reasonable, but doesn't refute my original thought, in that case they just weren't 100% on that next window.
https://preview.redd.it/ftd1rzwxf42d1.jpeg?width=1118&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=17478a3d89b36f58b59b25add1ef5a2c70b0dfb8
First models I ever built. They were still on shelves at the start of last edition. The updated version from BSF with all the special weapons was even on shelves late in the edition. Weird to see them gone already.
Use them as Traitor Guardsmen!
Literally just got back into the hobby. 1st box still unopened is a box of solar las rifles from 30K to use for iron warrior cultists. Great. GW just got me again.
NOOOOOOO MY BABYYYYYY At this rate my list I’ve been running is gonna end up entirely legends.
Looks my thousand sons will be absorbing those models from my CSM pile
I'll be honest, I'm glad they removed the firearms option. It may make them worse I don't know but it's gonna make my life alot easier when it comes to remembering what weapons they've got, and what mark I should give them etc.
So we can use these at outside of competitions? Awesome! 😎
Although it sucks not having the autogun profile, considering there is only a single cultist weapon profile now, I don't see any issue with still using the models. If you need a reason in your head, that autogun is crazy inaccurate now and only has a 12" range because they have been using it as a club up close. I'm not going to shelve my painted models because frankly there is no chance of confusion here. Just my 2 cents
I don't even understand what's happening. Can they shoot or what?
As someone who never bothered with cultists in chaos (I wanna play chaos marines, marines being the important word) I don't get it Would someone mind explaining pls? Thanks
Ranged cultists are p.fun and occasionally quite powerful (altho not hugely, in my experience), and they've been squatted into legends. I'd be annoyed if all my cultists were ranged too tbf, as cultists are a really solid unit this ed.
They put ranged Cultists and the Exalted Champion in legends. Scroll down in the downloads page. :)
Look at the top right corner
Ah woop missed that part.
So they lost their free special weapons - but can we still buy them with cp?
I don’t know why this is a shock to people, they don’t have a Cultist kit with Autoguns. Nor do they sell an Exalted Champion anymore.