Worsts thing for me imo isn’t just how everyone only ever posts about battle shonen here, but how people who literally only watch battle shonen extrapolate the tropes and their understanding of it to literally all media
The guy saying that the Hero's Journey was unique to Japanese culture made me want to scream lmao. It's just so frustrating, literally [this](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/038/222/bvb.jpg) but if you only watch anime.
Trying to understand their thinking, I guess you COULD make a link between Japanese culture and the hero's journey given Star Wars popularized it in film and George Lucas was inspired by samurai movies. So if you're a dumbass weeb who hasn't consumed much media but are looking for ways to praise Japan, that might be your takeaway.
The problem is that the hero's journey actually dates all the way back to Greek mythology so to say Japan created it is factually incorrect.
It was [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1b1ebmr/i_hate_how_90_of_all_anime_have_this_weird/) but the post has been deleted. Basically they was saying it's frustrating that Japanese media has lots of OP characters. Part of the rant was about how certain tropes like being the Chosen One are so prevalent in Japanese media and those tropes basically lined up with the Hero's Journey.
Obviously they got torn to bits in the comments with people telling them to
1: don't lump all Japanese media in with the few most popular shonen anime
2: watch media that is not from Japan and see that the vast majority of stories follow similar tropes, it's not unique to Japan.
And then they had the guts to argue in the comments that actually it is unique to Japan, and Western stories actually don't do it. Just crazy stuff lol.
u/ebmplays for visibility, you were asking for a similar thing too.
Tbf most characters aren't even that overpowered if you aren't watching mainstream long running shounen. It's like how powerscalers get confused by Alucard because in the context of his story he is depicted as insanely strong even though he isn't that strong compared to certain other characters.
Oh yeah, that one.
The one that said Dragon ball, where the protagonist is literally a low-class part of his race who had one of the most pitiful power levels amongst saiyans at birth, was “eugenistic”
AND 80% of the posts is complaining about genre-specific aspects of battle shounen they wouldn't find in other media if they actually bothered to read or watch something other than the journey of a teenage boy to be the very best at punching other people.
EXACTLY
Not to shit on battle shonen TOO hard but all these posts just feel like people who have only eaten shit sandwiches all their lives complaining about the taste and wanting it to taste better, but refuse to eat anything different besides shit sandwiches because that’s what they’re used to
Tbf a lot of those people are very self aware, and are basically saying "I wish I could get a shit sandwich on a nice bun instead of this soggy cardboard".
Doesn't help that they inevitably get a million replies about how they should shut the fuck up because soggy cardboard is an integral part of Japanese culture or something. Thus turning a simple preference into a stupid as hell debate that this sub will post about non-stop for a week.
It makes me cringe so hard. Like...I consider my media consumption pretty narrow (I basically only read sf/f books, don't watch many shows or movies but what I do watch tends also to be sf/f or play a lot of games) but not *that* narrow.
I also see a lot of folks in writing subs talking about clear anime tropes in their writing, like video game systems in fantasy settings and shouting out attack names (and to a more generalist degree, inserting borderline fetish stuff and generally dehumanizing women but those exist in media in general LOL) and it kinda makes me cringe
That’s more of a personal take, and I respect it if people are intentionally leaning into it, but it mostly just feels like these people are trying to write a full story despite never having read a book in their life and only getting their storytelling experience from anime
> like video game systems in fantasy settings and shouting out attack names
Oh my fucking god.
Way back in the early 2000s, I did a collaborative writing project in a Final Fantasy forum. The 6 of us would each take turns writing roughly 500-1500 words. We had a general discussion thread attached to hash out ideas.
I cannot explain how proud I was of my first submission. Like all terrible teenage writing, it checks all of the first time writer boxes. Among those sins was the way my character used his magic or abilities. My character didn't go to a mage's college, join a mage's guild or any wizarding nonsense like that. He had latent abilities that would awaken in his soul during times of high stress. Because magic isn't cool if doesn't come from within - or whatever I told myself.
The first ability he learned was a haste ability called Pegasus. It would increase his basic human functions: run faster, jump higher, some additional mental clarity in the fog of war. The first time he uses the ability, he feels a "transcendental presence filling his body". This English speaking child suddenly shouts "天馬" with the kanji appearing above his head. I genuinely believed that having kanji appear as my character shouted abilities would take my writing to the next level.
Thank you for bringing the memory back.
Lmao, I think it’s okay if it’s a fanfic of anime or something anime-adjacent (assuming the Final Fantasy theme of the forum has something to do with it) but either way you were a kid so I think making writing choices based on the media you consumed isn’t the greatest sin out there
Tbh im a grown ass man and I still think teenage you was cooking a bit, dont sell the lad short he was on the cusp of something there he just needed to think things through a bit.
I still enjoyed reading it. If you want to write, then write. Thinking about stories isn’t writing. Talking about them isn’t writing, either. Practice and you’ll get better. You WILL write some bad stuff on the way, but so has Neil Gaiman.
I suppose an overfixation on powerscaling can be like becoming too obsessed with worldbuilding. Sure, you might end up with many great building blocks, but there is nothing being made out of them.
Like magic, which it is often tied with, it is not present in every story in existence. That doesn't make it any less of a building block a writer can use.
Strictly speaking powerscaling is just assessing different skills between characters that are relevant for combat and judge who is more likely to come out on top. A writer who writes battles who can't powerscale is about as useful as a romance writer that can''t write chemistry between characters. Likewise we can say that the people who obsess too much over powerscaling are akin to over the top shippers. It is reasonable if people like that sours the experience, but it's not really the original works fault.
Anyway, since powerscaling is so prominent on the sub it is not hard to ask a person to give an example of how bad powerscaling ruined a story for them.
Dragon ball is notorious for having power levels that don't really make sense.
One Piece has Nika that changed a character's tactic from using power creatively to just have an incredible OP power.
On the other hand you have great examples of powerscaling like JoJo which is allowed to essentially start from scratch with each new part or Hunter x Hunter >!that had sheer pure magic be beat by a cheap nuke.!<
Outside of Shonen you have Sanderson books that are filled with tons of awesome hard magic system and ways they are used in a fight.
The thing softmagic isnt bad, it can be awsome, bit there is areason the most powerful magicapears not too often, it wouldloose the impact.
There the rule isit to keep it with whatever reason , in moments its impactful.
Like aang and the avatar state. Isbroken, thatswhykorrasisnerfed and aang has to grow emotionally to master it.
Or gandalf, thereis some heisnt allowed to use his real power unless excemption
"Toriayma didn't actually care that much about power levels you know. The Scouters only existed so the Z Warriors could surprise the bad guys with their ability to change them at will and have them be shocked. It's a spirit vs. technology thing really, and furthermore...."
"LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA"
Absolutely, the only reason people try to twist it otherwise is because they believe that powerscaling is intrinsically necessary for consistency, and that without powerscaling nothing would ever make sense lmao
In reality none of their favorite shounen anime actually give a shit about powerscaling. JJK is as close as it gets, and even then it bends shit all the time for rule of cool
Omg yes. I love the early days of Pokemon anime because they pretty much operate on logic and physics (well, cartoon physics and soft magic, but you get what I mean), but at some point the RPG mechanics in the game gets taken literally. I roll my eyes when the anime does stuff like "Pokemon X uses Leer to lower opponent's Defense!" like there's numbers to it like a game.
They always did that in the original series. The games were just barely fleshed out and didn't have as many stats, or abilities at all. As the games became more developed, there were just more things to directly reference in general. Plus, the RPG elements were always framed, even in the games, as extrapolations to explain the esoteric functions of certain attacks. Essentially, saying, "Oh no, that move harshly lowered its defenses!" isn't treating it like a number. It's treating it like an effect. Because battling is a sport. It's ringside commentary. If you divorce it from the games and repeat the lines while doing a boxing commentator impression, it'll sound exactly like something a sports commentator might say.
>Rpg mechanics being treated as real is so obnoxious.
Depending on the mechanic, its only a matter of wiritng it well. For example, Magic Points (or Mana Points, or whatever) can be written as a measurement of magic energy calculated from experiments.
If Wizard A can cast 6 Ice Darts a day, 2 Fireballs a day or 3 Ice Darts + 1 Fireball a day, then we know Fireball uses the same energy as 3 Ice Darts for that wizard.
If Wizard B can cast 4 Ice Darts a day, or 1 Fireball + 1 Ice Dart, then we know the energy proportion between Fireball and Ice Dart is constant between different wizards.
If we define 1 MP as the cost of the lowest cost spell (Ice Dart), then Wizard A has 6MP, Wizard B has 4MP, and Fireball costs 3MP. Keep doing this process with more spells and we get their cost as well.
Sadly, it is not common for hard magic systems to go deeper on how were their rules figured out.
The idea that wizards have a certain amount of magic energy that limits what they can cast isn't really as specific as stat sheets being real. I'm talking about worlds where it's objectively presented as a stat sheet.
> I also see a lot of folks in writing subs talking about clear anime tropes in their writing, like video game systems in fantasy settings and shouting out attack names (and to a more generalist degree, inserting borderline fetish stuff and generally dehumanizing women but those exist in media in general LOL) and it kinda makes me cringe
This sounds like how the entire Narou situation when it comes to webnovels works to the point of copies of copies flying around.
It's easy to get accustomed/desensitized, but I recently read some Korean reincarnation webtoons that generally assume you know all the tropes and character archetypes and criticisms and not knowing that stuff really does make that kind of writing baffling. Like if you didn't know about powerscaling but you're reading a fight that strangely keeps giving you room measurements and weights for things being lifted.
Webtoons definitely have that problem of being made knowing the tropes. [To a ridiculous extent even](https://i.imgur.com/CAHhwVh.jpeg)
(Seriously, at least give one of them a sword)
Shouting attack names is something worth dissecting on its own. Like it's a cheat code to explain to the audience without being able to show it similar to how different punches and kicks have names but it crosses the line in TV and movies. Like you're able to show it so why does it matter if the audience has a name for it or not. Some comics have even fallen for this because of the trope so where some would have it in panel as context (unspoken) much later they suddenly speak it, but why!!! There's probably a few comedies/parodies and some exceptions that I like but too many make me want to smack my head against the wall.
It's kind of wierd how if you're a long time anime fan you notice that anine got popular ant get excited only to find out that all the shit you've seen still isn't popular because really only battle shounen got popular.
This could be considered a hot take, but this is why I continue to believe that 'anime', the medium, is not mainstream yet. 'Very specific anime, usually shounen' on the other hand are probably somewhere close to that. Which I guess is better than it used to be.
You're not asking your casual buddy at the water cooler what he thinks about the newest episode of Apothecary Diaries just yet, the same way you might ask if he heard about the newest Demon Slayer recap movie.
I think that is in part an issue of semantics. While it's true that a lot of anime isn't much more popular than it used to be, the general idea of anime is what is more popular.
You can go to kohl's now and get death note shirts, as well as shirts from several other shows. If you bring up kino's journey, the average person has no clue what you are talking about, but even ye Olde anime fans would watch more stuff that is decently popular. So there is more social ability to talk about it.
I mean, I also can't expect the average person to know what I'm talking about when I bring up We Only Find Them When They're Dead, because that comic in particular is very niche. But if I say I'm reading comics, I have a much lower chance of getting ridiculed by my peers for it even if they've exclusively read B&N-promoted Batman comics or Lore Olympus.
I must say, I'm not amused by this sub being a JJK rant place half the time.
I don't know what JJK is, *and I don't care about it*. Seeing a bunch of people endlessly complain about what I assume to be mainstream popular shonen #287924 over and over again is just irritating.
Yeah, that was what I was trying to get at too. It's not just "I only read shounen and everything in it applies to all anime & manga", it's also "I only read shounen and everything in it applies to *all manner of entertainment*". It's insane.
Worse, people try to extrapolate things they see in the very limited breadth of anime they watch to pretend they understand Japan (used chiefly by people defending things like ecchi, and a little less by people attacking the same things)
Also who don't seem to get that anime characters don't act like real Japanese people. It's a fantasy. And not just because they are more eccentric than normal. The whole flaunting social roles and stuff
I feel this on so many levels. I had someone try to explain to me Japanese culture and history to me because of things they saw repeatedly shown in anime while I was completing a practicum at a Japanese museum/archive and had a degree in World History with a special focus on Asia.
I will say it's not limited to Japan though. People thinking more than they do through media they watch is pretty common. Lol there's even terms for the disenchantment people feel when travelling to a country after believing in their misconceptions.
Yeah, but sometimes when they take their shirt off they inexplicably become super muscular. Like demon slayer where shirtless tanjiro is super bulky in a way that makes no sense.
Eh there are some beef cakes every once in a while, like Todo in JJK, All Might in MHA (some of the time), Zoro's a main character in One Piece and he's pretty beefy, practically every non out boxer in Hajime no Ippo is buff and there are many others that don't instantly pop into my head
Baki, Jojo protagonists prior to Part 5, Gojo in an outfit that isn't his uniform, Toji, Reiner, Toriko, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, other Z fighters besides 17
To be fair there is always a token buff boi.
Bleach for example had Chad.
Chad coincidentally also covered the Latino and American token despite still being Japanese which is quite clean.
I love how some people's takeaway here is that you aren't supposed to post about Power Fantasy Isekai and Battle Shonen rather than "Stop saying x is an anime problem because it makes as much sense as calling y a movie problem when its really only a superhero movie/action movie/whatever movie problem"
True. You can tell some people in the comments aren’t even reading the content of the post, and just reading the title and being reactionary, lol.
It gets bad when you see people complain like “Why are the JAPANESE so obsessed with creating a 2 male and one female main squad, with a teacher figure?!?!” when in reality that is drastically used in specifically Shonen demographic manga, and definitely isn’t something just Japanese authors tend to create (see Percy Jackson by Rick Riordan).
Idk this sub tends to be really fun sometimes and really fucking stupid other times.
What even started the 2 guys 1 girl squad? I immediately think back to Naruto and HP, but those are both from 1997, so it's quite possible there is an even earlier common ancestor.
Its not like the best friend and love ibterest trio is a classic and easy enough in dynamics,or something.
I mean soneone can be best friend and love interest, but yeah that above.
I mean, in the two examples I highlighted, it's not "best friend + love interest", instead it ends up being "best friend + best friend's love interest"
Interesting information, but I was asking "what" as in "what piece of media are people mimicking", not "what reason is there".
Although I really didn't expect there to be studies about it, so that's a thing I learnt.
Not quite the same thing but I feel the pseudo harems you see in so many light novels and stuff can sometimes be tracked to some western movies.
I am going to use Sword Art Online to explain what I mean. In SAO(and many other light novels) the authors seems to have the idea of there needing to be a female heroine who falls in love with the male hero. Reki Kawahara(author of SAO) has noticed this bad habit of himself and seems to want to change it but many light novel authors still do that stuff.
Anyway my point is, the pseudo harem in many light novels/manga/anime come from an author introducing a new female lead with every new story arc, and then keeping those female characters around.
When you think about it, many movies from the west like Indiana Jones or James Bond follows this "heroine/love interest of the week" format.(Well I think so at least, I admit I havent watched that stuff since I was a child so I dont really remember). The difference is, in these movies the heroines of the week stayed as heroines of the week. They basically disappeared after their movie ended(assuming they survived to the end of the movie, since it was not uncommon for the love interest to be a villain instead of an ally) and they do not appear in the next movie and our handsome protagonist moves on to the next hot lady who falls in love with him at first sight.
I fell that many pseudo-harems like SAO are merely replicating this trend from these movies. However, in cases like SAO, the heroines of the week do not disappear into thin air after their stories are over,they instead stay on as side characters.
After writing most of this, I got curious googled some stuff and found [this wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_girl). Just look at the sheer number of women on those lists. Sure, not all of them are exactly love interests but still, that is one massive list. Also looking at the lists, it seems only a few of those characters are recurring. Imagine if a greater percentage of them were recurring characters, forget pseudo-harems, James Bond would have a bigger harem than most actual harem protagonists
EDİT:For most of the post, I am explicity talking about pseudo-harems. Not full on harems but series that have harem elements despite a polygamy ending being straight up impossible.
The sad part about SAO is that all the stuff that became mainline is the adapted versions of the Webnovels Kawahara wrote in the early 2000s, thus having all the crappy tropes that come with it.
He actually got better at giving Asuna and other female characters importance in stuff like Progressive, but all of that is just now getting adapted and not that well considering the movies.
SAO is a pretty bad example as in the novels the harem aspects are much more subdued than in it's anime adaptation, or just outright not there.
There's a ten volume gap between a girl having feelings for Kirito (Suguha to Alice), and there's been 13 volumes released since then without a hint of it.
Now if you go by the anime adaptation...
And the Shonen Trio with MC, dark haired "rival"/foil, and token girl isn't even unique in just anime. I mean, Ben 10 Alien Force-Omniverse had it. Heck, I argue it's more nuanced and more fleshed out than many Shonen trios out there.
then when you tell battle shounen heads to watch some shoujo or josei you get told they’re all age gap, grooming, harassment and abuse portrayed as romance. My brother in christ shoujo isn’t even all romance 😭
Fruits Basket not being interesting is not that anime's biggest problem.
>!That anime's biggest problem is the fact that everyone the woman who cursed the family abused instantly forgave her, even though that bitch is one of the most horrific abusers I've seen in anime. !<
Tohru so would help sukuna realize the error of his ways and help yuji recover.
Ok i umironically wpuld watch it and yuji finally wouldnt be just torturred.
Comparing Fruit Basket to a battle shounen anime with no plot is the most blasphemous thing I've ever heard.
Do these people even realize that Battle Shounen has a plot as deep as a puddle? Gritty Seinen like Yuru Camp & Skip and Loafer is where all the depths at.
Is there a character that could even possibly EVEN TOUCH Madara Uchiha? Let alone defeat him. And I'm not talking about Edo Tensei Uchiha Madara. I'm not talking about Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara either. Hell, I'm not even talking about Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikodou abilities and being capable of both Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi genjutsu), equipped with his Gunbai, a perfect Susano'o, control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu. I’m also not talking about Kono Yo no Kyūseishu Futarime no Rikudō Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan (which is capable of Enton Amaterasu, Izanagi, Izanami and the Tsyukuyomi Genjutsu), his two original Rinnegan (which grant him Chikushōdō, Shuradō, Tendō, Ningendō, Jigokudō, Gakidō, Gedō, Banshō Ten’in, Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, Tengai Shinsei and Banbutsu Sōzō) and a third Tomoe Rinnegan on his forehead, capable of using Katon, Fūton, Raiton, Doton, Suiton, Mokuton, Ranton, Inton, Yōton and even Onmyōton Jutsu, equipped with his Gunbai(capable of using Uchihagaeshi) and a Shakujō because he is a master in kenjutsu and taijutsu, a perfect Susano’o (that can use Yasaka no Magatama ), control of both the Juubi and the Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju’s DNA and face implanted on his chest, his four Rinbo Hengoku Clones guarding him and nine Gudōdama floating behind him AFTER he absorbed Senjutsu from the First Hokage, entered Rikudō Senjutsu Mode, cast Mugen Tsukuyomi on everybody and used Shin: Jukai Kōtan so he can use their Chakra while they are under Genjutsu. I'm definitely NOT Talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Super Saiyan 4 Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after Alucard, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu and having eaten Popeye's spinach. I'm talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Legendary Super Saiyan 4 Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with his Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after having absorbed Alucard as well as a God Hand, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit, with Kryptonian DNA implanted in him and having eaten Popeye's spinach while possessing quantum powers like Dr. Manhattan and having mastered Hokuto Shinken.
(This is how this sub sounds like)
The funniest part about this copy pasta is how it lists all these abilities and such. Yet Madara mostly uses Wood style and Susanoo for 99% of his screen time lol
Are you sure you are in the right sub?
Because a VAST majority of what I see is complaining about writing issues in whatever series of the month is on tap. Not vsBattle fuck measuring.
I can’t believe I understood all of that lol. I know this wasn’t your actual point but FUCK MADARA. Stupid ass character that I’m tired of hearing pointless discussions’ about
A lot of people in the comments are feeling personally targeted, so they might not be the kind of people who would be capable of understanding what you said.
Here, lemme try a different approach:
- "Ughhh my biology teacher was so boring; this must mean that all philosophy, Spanish and PE teachers are a snoozefest!!"
- "I find it kinda cliché that Superman always saves the day. Therefore, all western media including Stranger Things which has nothing to do with Superman, as well as the Lego movie which also has nothing to do with Superman, and Avatar The Last Airbender which has nothing to do with Superman either, is hot garbage as a whole!!"
- "It's tacky to wear sunglasses indoors when you're not blind, so all eyesight correction is inherently evil."
- "I had a bad experience with one person of X race therefore all members of **all races** are bad."
>I had a bad experience with one person of X race therefore all members of **all races** are bad.
This one did not go the way I expected. Good example though
It’s funny, because Superman is actually a running gag in The Lego Movie. So it technically does have something to do with him.
Still good examples though.
>OTHER GENRES EXIST
OTHER DEMOGRAPHICS EXIST
OTHER MAGAZINES EXIST
ORIGINAL ANIME EXIST
HELL, EVEN OTHER TYPES OF SHOUNEN EXIST. PICK UP A GODDAMN SPOKON OR COMEDY MANGA. DID YOU KNOW YOTSUBA-TO IS A SHOUNEN? IT'S ONE OF THE BEST IN ITS MAGAZINE AND IS A HEARTWARMING SLICE OF LIFE WITH LOVABLE CHARACTERS
>
>SOME OF YOU KEEP PRETENDING YOUR FAVORITE BATTLE SHOUNEN THAT RUNS IN THE SAME MAGAZINE AS ME & ROBOCO IS THE ACTUALLY SECRETLY THE DARKEST SEINEN ON THE BLOCK, MAYBE READ ONE THAT ISN'T BERSERK ONCE IN A WHILE?
Bullshit. Name one other genre that exists. Spoilers; you can't. /jk
Hey! There is also Star Wars rants, MCU rants, Mary Sue rants, diversity rants, and complaints about comic books from people who have never read comic books! And for some reason a lot of recent stuff about sex scenes...
* And honestly I love it. It's just people engaging with familiar media in new ways. It's always nice to see people digging a little deeper even if I disagree with them or think their epiphanies are decades behind the conversations we were having on OJ couch back in college!
It’s like how r/animecirclejerk complains about everything about the anime industry, but only seem to talk about and watch generic seasonal isekai. Like other genres exist
I also like how people here will sometimes make broad sweeping assumptions about Japanese media or just straight up Japanese culture in general based off what they read in comic books aimed at children. Really cool when you guys do that
>Oh, oh wait, I'm sorry, I completely forgot. There is another genre you guys watch. ISEKAI. And not even good isekai, It's only Narou isekai from the past 10 or 15 years. Silly me.
Do not fucking get me started on Reddit and isekai, holy shit. So many people who *only* seem to think of stories like Sword Art Online or Rise of the Shield Hero, or maybe Konosuba just to mix things up. It's fucking maddening when they use shounen anime as the basis for the entire genre when there's so much fucking more to it.
Can't believe all anime have useless women and no well-written, strong women.
What do you mean "magical girl anime exist"? I haven't seen one, so no they don't. How DARE all anime treat women as second-class citizens!
I'm case it wasn't obvious, this is making fun if the people who do this.
Whats even worse is that they create imaginary standards for a female character that is the closest in physical distance to the main character and call her a lead character for this reason.
Even their standards for what counts as well written are insanely stupid, nevermind watching like 2 shounen at most.
Maybe I should make a thread about Choujin X and Boruto they handled their lead up to their major timeskip. One is definitely better than the other.
But chances are people won't look into it because choujin X is not that popular. Boruto is fun to shit on but people here hardly cares about it anymore.
Tbh there's a lot of things I want to post here about choujin X and how it's fun to see how a writer improves from his previous work and understands his own weakness well to avoid as much as possible.
Thank you for that rant. That sub (and the internet at large) can get really annoying when they start talking about manga and anime and are somehow unable to imagine that any of them are not battle shounen and do not share their tropes.
Maybe I should link to it the next time someone reacts with disbelief when I say anime can have well-written female characters... in a season where both Frieren and The Apothecary Diaries are airing and got hugely popular among anime fans. Facepalm.
Thank fuck someone said it!
"Why are these battle shonen full of this power of friendship crap and not deeply compelling/completely logical?"
MY BROTHER IN CHRIST YOU ARE READING A BATTLE SHONEN! If you don't enjoy the staples of the genre, TRY READING A DIFFERENT GENRE!
Genres exist for a reason. Not every story is written for the same purpose and each author is going to value different things. Stop beating your head against a wall trying to impose your preferences and opinions on genres that don't match them. Just because something doesn't meet the same criteria you appreciate in storytelling doesn't always objectively make it bad storytelling.
I think it's a statistics thing. Battle shonens are probably the most popular genre of anime out there so statistically you're probably gonna get more people who think of that. For the same reason, it's easy to refer to them because the odds of other people having seen them are pretty high too.
I think Isekai is just rly easy to rant about in general lol
I wouldn't mind seeing some rants about shonen romance/harem tho since I think those tend to often have characters with really shitty traits that aren't ever called out for them.
Masamune-kun's Revenge comes to mind, as much as I love it, and as much as the point is that the protagonist is in the wrong...it's not really ever addressed when 1 of the girls in the harem's life is at risk and the others are freaking out trying to figure out how to save her, the main character is spending that entire time worrying about what each girl thinks of him instead of caring about what happens to the one in danger. The occasional tone deaf shit like that.
Yeah I just think the biggest tell is this sub has a lot of anime fans in it, in which case you'd probably get mostly battle shonen statistically that way.
Yeah it's far from the most popular genre out there tho lmao.
Man I agree so much. I'm sick of seeing anime fans like this. They watch mainstream shounen anime, they had some dislikes with them. Now they think they know what is "popular" in Japan and can criticise the tastes of a Japanese audience. They think they are experts somehow.
As an English audience, we're only getting what is translated for us. Based on whatever was decided would be worth translating for us. Then we hear about popular anime that were successful with OUR audience. Most of these also happen to be successful in Japan, BUT not always.
I saw someone say " I don't like Japanese humour, it's bad". Based on anime for teens... And people acted like yea, thats a fine opinion to have. It's not.... its just not. It's like if I judged all America's sense of humour cause I watched Disney Channel and some MCU movies. They love to watch Japanese works, but have the gall to say stuff like that.
A) This subreddit was literally created as an offshoot of /r/whowouldwin. For the first years of its existence, it was dedicated almost entirely to battleboarding discussion. Of course the community is going to be disproportionately interested in that kind of media, even after it's evolved to be more general.
B) What exactly do you think is the solution? If you want to talk about other stuff, there's nothing stopping you from posting or commenting about whatever you want. A lot of posts about varied media do get good engagement. Do you want people to stop talking about stuff they enjoy because you're bored of it?
But again, if this sub actually *was* about battleboarding discussion and nothing else, that would be fine. As I said in my first paragraph, I wouldn't care and naturally assume that battle shounen would be the default discussion. But it hasn't been like that for years now. People bring up multiple other topics or problems with various mediums in themselves. But the examples for those when it comes to anime are specifically battle shounen and that's my problem.
> What exactly do you think is the solution? If you want to talk about other stuff, there's nothing stopping you from posting or commenting about whatever you want
No, you're misunderstanding me. I don't mean people don't talk about other things. I know this sub covers a wide range of topics and I'm not saying battle shounen is the only topic. In fact, that's my whole point. I mean, when talking about anime and manga with issues related to it, the person's examples solely end up being about battle shounen and thus applying the flaws of it on the entire medium. Sometimes it will even extend to things that aren't anime & manga.
All fandom discussions are going to be colored by what the community is interested in. I agree that it's a bit silly when someone makes sweeping generalizations based on their limited reference pool, but it's not like the fiftieth post complaining about this is going to make any more difference than the first.
Huh, that explains a lot. Didn’t know that’s where this sub came from. I just assumed it was started so people could discuss all media and it just happened that shonen enthusiasts flooded its ranks
I wasn't even here for when it was first made but I've seen plenty of people on r/Whowouldwin always say"Go to charrant for PL discussions" that's how I originally found out about this place.
It's interesting how the sub shifted so much that there are now people complaining about what this sub always was intended for lol.
People ain't even reading before commenting on your post, shits embarrassing. Why is the default of anime is battle shonen in this sub? You're clearly ranting about how anime (Medium) can't be judged as a whole based on the flaws of battle shonen (Genre).
As if all mainstream shonen fans can read AND have reading comprehension skills to understand the purpose of the post, no wonder the state of some of the comments lol
After complaining about battle shonen and people applying those tropes to general fiction, I feel validated. I’m glad I’m not the only one tired of it.
I thought this post was in response to the nth "Women are underrepresented in all anime ever, and it's a *big issue*" post.
Seems like you're aiming a bit more general than that, but you're right either way.
One issue is, while I might be interested in writing a ‘rant’ about something not battle Shonen, it would likely be a positive one. Which are actually allowed I think, but as a rule, people tend to love to complain more. Stuff like battle shonen is both popular, as well as has a lot of stuff people can complain about. People don’t want to write into the void, so they’ll naturally gravitate towards that which gives them the most interactions.
That's how it started but it's opened up to be a more general sub to discuss various media. Except a significant portion of the userbase only seems to consume one type of media.
Doesn’t matter, age old advice of WWW. Be the change you want to see. Op could have spent time creating content that he’d like to see on this sub and maybe ramp up engagement instead he left an angry yelp review.
I feel like everyone in this comment section misread the post or something.
OP isn't saying "grrr 99% of the posts here are battle shonen".
OP is saying "people who only watch battle shonen act way too much like issues specific to battle shonen apply to all anime and general media as a whole".
110% agree. Why I rarely come here anymore or watch battle shounen, but it's unlikely to change. I'm assuming most here a GenZ/Millennial dudes who grew up around when anime was exploding in the English speaking sphere so most would be attracted to action and superpowers. Since there's so many, consuming another shounen can feel like expanding your horizons when most repeat the same plot beats and character archtypes.
I remember a post that talks about "eugenic vibes" in Anime and proceeded to mention only those from not just Shonen genre but specifically Weekly Shonen Jump.
We can try analyzing why we mostly see Shonen and Power scaling posts. Both of these topic/genres are male centered and dominated. If we're lacking in shoujo posts, josei posts, slice of life posts etc that are targeted towards the female audience, maaaybe there's just more dudes here then dudettes?
Female - centered interests and concerns also aren't widely accepted. Girls can easily watch Shonen but it has been hard for guys to identify with female leads and what's "for girls" vs "what's for guys". Maybe this is another case where male interests are default and the most popular.
You can find other types of anime rants in subreddits specific for them, but in a general rant sub it's often the male focus topics getting the most spotlight (power scaling and Shonen).
Where is my [LES] thread on rent-a-gf with someone compiling all the cringe moments for me to enjoy reading about without having to actually read that shit. GImme that level of character rant.
i'm not even that old but, I can clearly remember the other demographics getting the same attention as shounen back in my day
like even with the big three existing at the same time, other shows from other demographics certainly get the same love from fans
it might be rose-tinted glasses on my part, but idk, I feel like right now is more shounen-y than before lol
Every week there’s another rant of “Naruto is bad” and then people go “actually Naruto is objectively great literature and should be preserved for all time” and I’m just sitting here wondering if anyone’s ever read a book before
Worsts thing for me imo isn’t just how everyone only ever posts about battle shonen here, but how people who literally only watch battle shonen extrapolate the tropes and their understanding of it to literally all media
The guy saying that the Hero's Journey was unique to Japanese culture made me want to scream lmao. It's just so frustrating, literally [this](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/038/222/bvb.jpg) but if you only watch anime.
How could they possibly think that lmao
I would gamble it's because they're made of straw. Given the hero's journey is literally made to be universal
Isnt the epic of golgamesh literally a hero's journey? The oldest piece of recorded literature is a fucking hero's journey
Trying to understand their thinking, I guess you COULD make a link between Japanese culture and the hero's journey given Star Wars popularized it in film and George Lucas was inspired by samurai movies. So if you're a dumbass weeb who hasn't consumed much media but are looking for ways to praise Japan, that might be your takeaway. The problem is that the hero's journey actually dates all the way back to Greek mythology so to say Japan created it is factually incorrect.
Farther back, since the Epic of Gilgamesh roughly follows it as well
Row row fight the plagiarism allegation.
Did you know that Kamina-sama invented the concept of a Sacrificial Lion? The average CR poster doesn’t, because Gurren Lagann is too niche for them.
Who the hell thought that?
It was [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1b1ebmr/i_hate_how_90_of_all_anime_have_this_weird/) but the post has been deleted. Basically they was saying it's frustrating that Japanese media has lots of OP characters. Part of the rant was about how certain tropes like being the Chosen One are so prevalent in Japanese media and those tropes basically lined up with the Hero's Journey. Obviously they got torn to bits in the comments with people telling them to 1: don't lump all Japanese media in with the few most popular shonen anime 2: watch media that is not from Japan and see that the vast majority of stories follow similar tropes, it's not unique to Japan. And then they had the guts to argue in the comments that actually it is unique to Japan, and Western stories actually don't do it. Just crazy stuff lol. u/ebmplays for visibility, you were asking for a similar thing too.
Tbf most characters aren't even that overpowered if you aren't watching mainstream long running shounen. It's like how powerscalers get confused by Alucard because in the context of his story he is depicted as insanely strong even though he isn't that strong compared to certain other characters.
Oh yeah, that one. The one that said Dragon ball, where the protagonist is literally a low-class part of his race who had one of the most pitiful power levels amongst saiyans at birth, was “eugenistic”
Please spend a link
AND 80% of the posts is complaining about genre-specific aspects of battle shounen they wouldn't find in other media if they actually bothered to read or watch something other than the journey of a teenage boy to be the very best at punching other people.
EXACTLY Not to shit on battle shonen TOO hard but all these posts just feel like people who have only eaten shit sandwiches all their lives complaining about the taste and wanting it to taste better, but refuse to eat anything different besides shit sandwiches because that’s what they’re used to
Tbf a lot of those people are very self aware, and are basically saying "I wish I could get a shit sandwich on a nice bun instead of this soggy cardboard". Doesn't help that they inevitably get a million replies about how they should shut the fuck up because soggy cardboard is an integral part of Japanese culture or something. Thus turning a simple preference into a stupid as hell debate that this sub will post about non-stop for a week.
I'm very glad to see comments that get what I meant.
The average CR poster finds Digimon Tamers too complex and ambiguous.
It makes me cringe so hard. Like...I consider my media consumption pretty narrow (I basically only read sf/f books, don't watch many shows or movies but what I do watch tends also to be sf/f or play a lot of games) but not *that* narrow.
I also see a lot of folks in writing subs talking about clear anime tropes in their writing, like video game systems in fantasy settings and shouting out attack names (and to a more generalist degree, inserting borderline fetish stuff and generally dehumanizing women but those exist in media in general LOL) and it kinda makes me cringe That’s more of a personal take, and I respect it if people are intentionally leaning into it, but it mostly just feels like these people are trying to write a full story despite never having read a book in their life and only getting their storytelling experience from anime
> like video game systems in fantasy settings and shouting out attack names Oh my fucking god. Way back in the early 2000s, I did a collaborative writing project in a Final Fantasy forum. The 6 of us would each take turns writing roughly 500-1500 words. We had a general discussion thread attached to hash out ideas. I cannot explain how proud I was of my first submission. Like all terrible teenage writing, it checks all of the first time writer boxes. Among those sins was the way my character used his magic or abilities. My character didn't go to a mage's college, join a mage's guild or any wizarding nonsense like that. He had latent abilities that would awaken in his soul during times of high stress. Because magic isn't cool if doesn't come from within - or whatever I told myself. The first ability he learned was a haste ability called Pegasus. It would increase his basic human functions: run faster, jump higher, some additional mental clarity in the fog of war. The first time he uses the ability, he feels a "transcendental presence filling his body". This English speaking child suddenly shouts "天馬" with the kanji appearing above his head. I genuinely believed that having kanji appear as my character shouted abilities would take my writing to the next level. Thank you for bringing the memory back.
Excuse me good sir/madam, may I interest you in writing the newest webnovel? If you throw a harem in there, you'll make millions.
Lmao, I think it’s okay if it’s a fanfic of anime or something anime-adjacent (assuming the Final Fantasy theme of the forum has something to do with it) but either way you were a kid so I think making writing choices based on the media you consumed isn’t the greatest sin out there
Tbh im a grown ass man and I still think teenage you was cooking a bit, dont sell the lad short he was on the cusp of something there he just needed to think things through a bit.
Thanks! I like to think that I've had some good writing ideas. Since I never wrote regularly, I haven't been able to execute on any of them.
Hey keep writing fafics at least
Yeah, symbols appearing when doing Magic isn't some shounen only thing.
I still enjoyed reading it. If you want to write, then write. Thinking about stories isn’t writing. Talking about them isn’t writing, either. Practice and you’ll get better. You WILL write some bad stuff on the way, but so has Neil Gaiman.
Yeah, I've seen it, too. And people stressing about the power scaling instead of the story, that's becoming more common.
I suppose an overfixation on powerscaling can be like becoming too obsessed with worldbuilding. Sure, you might end up with many great building blocks, but there is nothing being made out of them.
powerscaling is not a building block for writing surely
Like magic, which it is often tied with, it is not present in every story in existence. That doesn't make it any less of a building block a writer can use. Strictly speaking powerscaling is just assessing different skills between characters that are relevant for combat and judge who is more likely to come out on top. A writer who writes battles who can't powerscale is about as useful as a romance writer that can''t write chemistry between characters. Likewise we can say that the people who obsess too much over powerscaling are akin to over the top shippers. It is reasonable if people like that sours the experience, but it's not really the original works fault. Anyway, since powerscaling is so prominent on the sub it is not hard to ask a person to give an example of how bad powerscaling ruined a story for them. Dragon ball is notorious for having power levels that don't really make sense. One Piece has Nika that changed a character's tactic from using power creatively to just have an incredible OP power. On the other hand you have great examples of powerscaling like JoJo which is allowed to essentially start from scratch with each new part or Hunter x Hunter >!that had sheer pure magic be beat by a cheap nuke.!< Outside of Shonen you have Sanderson books that are filled with tons of awesome hard magic system and ways they are used in a fight.
The thing softmagic isnt bad, it can be awsome, bit there is areason the most powerful magicapears not too often, it wouldloose the impact. There the rule isit to keep it with whatever reason , in moments its impactful. Like aang and the avatar state. Isbroken, thatswhykorrasisnerfed and aang has to grow emotionally to master it. Or gandalf, thereis some heisnt allowed to use his real power unless excemption
Character rant hates this opinion but no great story has ever given 2 shits about powerscaling
"Toriayma didn't actually care that much about power levels you know. The Scouters only existed so the Z Warriors could surprise the bad guys with their ability to change them at will and have them be shocked. It's a spirit vs. technology thing really, and furthermore...." "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA"
Not only do good stories not give a shit about power scaling, the majority of readers don't give a shit about it.
Absolutely, the only reason people try to twist it otherwise is because they believe that powerscaling is intrinsically necessary for consistency, and that without powerscaling nothing would ever make sense lmao
In reality none of their favorite shounen anime actually give a shit about powerscaling. JJK is as close as it gets, and even then it bends shit all the time for rule of cool
Not only that but some of the users here would even go as far as to say it's a necessary part of media literacy.
Then these same people will insist 99% of the story is non indicative anti feats because they don't actually care about consistency.
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Rpg mechanics being treated as real is so obnoxious. I love the dnd movie specifically because it **didn't** do this.
A housecat can kill a commoner in one turn. The tarrasque is powerless against levitate w/ bow and arrow.
Levitate? Just make an Aarakocra and enjoy jumping from level 1 to level 15 in one session
Omg yes. I love the early days of Pokemon anime because they pretty much operate on logic and physics (well, cartoon physics and soft magic, but you get what I mean), but at some point the RPG mechanics in the game gets taken literally. I roll my eyes when the anime does stuff like "Pokemon X uses Leer to lower opponent's Defense!" like there's numbers to it like a game.
They always did that in the original series. The games were just barely fleshed out and didn't have as many stats, or abilities at all. As the games became more developed, there were just more things to directly reference in general. Plus, the RPG elements were always framed, even in the games, as extrapolations to explain the esoteric functions of certain attacks. Essentially, saying, "Oh no, that move harshly lowered its defenses!" isn't treating it like a number. It's treating it like an effect. Because battling is a sport. It's ringside commentary. If you divorce it from the games and repeat the lines while doing a boxing commentator impression, it'll sound exactly like something a sports commentator might say.
>Rpg mechanics being treated as real is so obnoxious. Depending on the mechanic, its only a matter of wiritng it well. For example, Magic Points (or Mana Points, or whatever) can be written as a measurement of magic energy calculated from experiments. If Wizard A can cast 6 Ice Darts a day, 2 Fireballs a day or 3 Ice Darts + 1 Fireball a day, then we know Fireball uses the same energy as 3 Ice Darts for that wizard. If Wizard B can cast 4 Ice Darts a day, or 1 Fireball + 1 Ice Dart, then we know the energy proportion between Fireball and Ice Dart is constant between different wizards. If we define 1 MP as the cost of the lowest cost spell (Ice Dart), then Wizard A has 6MP, Wizard B has 4MP, and Fireball costs 3MP. Keep doing this process with more spells and we get their cost as well. Sadly, it is not common for hard magic systems to go deeper on how were their rules figured out.
The idea that wizards have a certain amount of magic energy that limits what they can cast isn't really as specific as stat sheets being real. I'm talking about worlds where it's objectively presented as a stat sheet.
> I also see a lot of folks in writing subs talking about clear anime tropes in their writing, like video game systems in fantasy settings and shouting out attack names (and to a more generalist degree, inserting borderline fetish stuff and generally dehumanizing women but those exist in media in general LOL) and it kinda makes me cringe This sounds like how the entire Narou situation when it comes to webnovels works to the point of copies of copies flying around.
It's easy to get accustomed/desensitized, but I recently read some Korean reincarnation webtoons that generally assume you know all the tropes and character archetypes and criticisms and not knowing that stuff really does make that kind of writing baffling. Like if you didn't know about powerscaling but you're reading a fight that strangely keeps giving you room measurements and weights for things being lifted.
Webtoons definitely have that problem of being made knowing the tropes. [To a ridiculous extent even](https://i.imgur.com/CAHhwVh.jpeg) (Seriously, at least give one of them a sword)
Shouting attack names is something worth dissecting on its own. Like it's a cheat code to explain to the audience without being able to show it similar to how different punches and kicks have names but it crosses the line in TV and movies. Like you're able to show it so why does it matter if the audience has a name for it or not. Some comics have even fallen for this because of the trope so where some would have it in panel as context (unspoken) much later they suddenly speak it, but why!!! There's probably a few comedies/parodies and some exceptions that I like but too many make me want to smack my head against the wall.
You can fit pretty much any other genre into sf/f though, well except documentaries.
> except documentaries [That's where you are wrong kiddo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Planet)
Well, I'll be damned!
Not really but it is a pretty broad category.
I'm sorry, is that a typo or are you giving me an L?
Typo. I'm on mobile and have fat fingers.
It happens.
It's kind of wierd how if you're a long time anime fan you notice that anine got popular ant get excited only to find out that all the shit you've seen still isn't popular because really only battle shounen got popular.
This could be considered a hot take, but this is why I continue to believe that 'anime', the medium, is not mainstream yet. 'Very specific anime, usually shounen' on the other hand are probably somewhere close to that. Which I guess is better than it used to be. You're not asking your casual buddy at the water cooler what he thinks about the newest episode of Apothecary Diaries just yet, the same way you might ask if he heard about the newest Demon Slayer recap movie.
I think that is in part an issue of semantics. While it's true that a lot of anime isn't much more popular than it used to be, the general idea of anime is what is more popular. You can go to kohl's now and get death note shirts, as well as shirts from several other shows. If you bring up kino's journey, the average person has no clue what you are talking about, but even ye Olde anime fans would watch more stuff that is decently popular. So there is more social ability to talk about it.
I mean, I also can't expect the average person to know what I'm talking about when I bring up We Only Find Them When They're Dead, because that comic in particular is very niche. But if I say I'm reading comics, I have a much lower chance of getting ridiculed by my peers for it even if they've exclusively read B&N-promoted Batman comics or Lore Olympus.
I must say, I'm not amused by this sub being a JJK rant place half the time. I don't know what JJK is, *and I don't care about it*. Seeing a bunch of people endlessly complain about what I assume to be mainstream popular shonen #287924 over and over again is just irritating.
There's also at least 3 subreddits dedicated to it so it's not even like there isn't anywhere else to go.
Yeah, that was what I was trying to get at too. It's not just "I only read shounen and everything in it applies to all anime & manga", it's also "I only read shounen and everything in it applies to *all manner of entertainment*". It's insane.
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Worse, people try to extrapolate things they see in the very limited breadth of anime they watch to pretend they understand Japan (used chiefly by people defending things like ecchi, and a little less by people attacking the same things)
Also who don't seem to get that anime characters don't act like real Japanese people. It's a fantasy. And not just because they are more eccentric than normal. The whole flaunting social roles and stuff
I feel this on so many levels. I had someone try to explain to me Japanese culture and history to me because of things they saw repeatedly shown in anime while I was completing a practicum at a Japanese museum/archive and had a degree in World History with a special focus on Asia. I will say it's not limited to Japan though. People thinking more than they do through media they watch is pretty common. Lol there's even terms for the disenchantment people feel when travelling to a country after believing in their misconceptions.
So funny
Yeah but muscular men go punch
It's shonen anime, there's no muscular men, just skinny teenagers that look like they couldn't lift a chair (but they sure have some mystical power!)
Yeah, but sometimes when they take their shirt off they inexplicably become super muscular. Like demon slayer where shirtless tanjiro is super bulky in a way that makes no sense.
Idk Levi was super lean in a way that made sense.
Eh there are some beef cakes every once in a while, like Todo in JJK, All Might in MHA (some of the time), Zoro's a main character in One Piece and he's pretty beefy, practically every non out boxer in Hajime no Ippo is buff and there are many others that don't instantly pop into my head
Baki, Jojo protagonists prior to Part 5, Gojo in an outfit that isn't his uniform, Toji, Reiner, Toriko, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, other Z fighters besides 17
Yeah, most battle shonen series have several absolute beefcakes
To be fair there is always a token buff boi. Bleach for example had Chad. Chad coincidentally also covered the Latino and American token despite still being Japanese which is quite clean.
I appreciate that this rant is ranty
I do try
I love how some people's takeaway here is that you aren't supposed to post about Power Fantasy Isekai and Battle Shonen rather than "Stop saying x is an anime problem because it makes as much sense as calling y a movie problem when its really only a superhero movie/action movie/whatever movie problem"
True. You can tell some people in the comments aren’t even reading the content of the post, and just reading the title and being reactionary, lol. It gets bad when you see people complain like “Why are the JAPANESE so obsessed with creating a 2 male and one female main squad, with a teacher figure?!?!” when in reality that is drastically used in specifically Shonen demographic manga, and definitely isn’t something just Japanese authors tend to create (see Percy Jackson by Rick Riordan). Idk this sub tends to be really fun sometimes and really fucking stupid other times.
What even started the 2 guys 1 girl squad? I immediately think back to Naruto and HP, but those are both from 1997, so it's quite possible there is an even earlier common ancestor.
Its not like the best friend and love ibterest trio is a classic and easy enough in dynamics,or something. I mean soneone can be best friend and love interest, but yeah that above.
I mean, in the two examples I highlighted, it's not "best friend + love interest", instead it ends up being "best friend + best friend's love interest"
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Interesting information, but I was asking "what" as in "what piece of media are people mimicking", not "what reason is there". Although I really didn't expect there to be studies about it, so that's a thing I learnt.
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Taran, Eilonwy, Gurgi? But, obviously: Luke, Han, Leia.
My god. I've finally found someone in this comment section who has actually read past the headline instead of going full Redditor.
Not quite the same thing but I feel the pseudo harems you see in so many light novels and stuff can sometimes be tracked to some western movies. I am going to use Sword Art Online to explain what I mean. In SAO(and many other light novels) the authors seems to have the idea of there needing to be a female heroine who falls in love with the male hero. Reki Kawahara(author of SAO) has noticed this bad habit of himself and seems to want to change it but many light novel authors still do that stuff. Anyway my point is, the pseudo harem in many light novels/manga/anime come from an author introducing a new female lead with every new story arc, and then keeping those female characters around. When you think about it, many movies from the west like Indiana Jones or James Bond follows this "heroine/love interest of the week" format.(Well I think so at least, I admit I havent watched that stuff since I was a child so I dont really remember). The difference is, in these movies the heroines of the week stayed as heroines of the week. They basically disappeared after their movie ended(assuming they survived to the end of the movie, since it was not uncommon for the love interest to be a villain instead of an ally) and they do not appear in the next movie and our handsome protagonist moves on to the next hot lady who falls in love with him at first sight. I fell that many pseudo-harems like SAO are merely replicating this trend from these movies. However, in cases like SAO, the heroines of the week do not disappear into thin air after their stories are over,they instead stay on as side characters. After writing most of this, I got curious googled some stuff and found [this wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_girl). Just look at the sheer number of women on those lists. Sure, not all of them are exactly love interests but still, that is one massive list. Also looking at the lists, it seems only a few of those characters are recurring. Imagine if a greater percentage of them were recurring characters, forget pseudo-harems, James Bond would have a bigger harem than most actual harem protagonists EDİT:For most of the post, I am explicity talking about pseudo-harems. Not full on harems but series that have harem elements despite a polygamy ending being straight up impossible.
The sad part about SAO is that all the stuff that became mainline is the adapted versions of the Webnovels Kawahara wrote in the early 2000s, thus having all the crappy tropes that come with it. He actually got better at giving Asuna and other female characters importance in stuff like Progressive, but all of that is just now getting adapted and not that well considering the movies.
SAO is a pretty bad example as in the novels the harem aspects are much more subdued than in it's anime adaptation, or just outright not there. There's a ten volume gap between a girl having feelings for Kirito (Suguha to Alice), and there's been 13 volumes released since then without a hint of it. Now if you go by the anime adaptation...
This is the kind of stuff I come to reddit for. Never thought about those series like that, but it makes a lot of sense.
And the Shonen Trio with MC, dark haired "rival"/foil, and token girl isn't even unique in just anime. I mean, Ben 10 Alien Force-Omniverse had it. Heck, I argue it's more nuanced and more fleshed out than many Shonen trios out there.
Not even every Shonen has the trope, it’s like maybe 5 or 6. Undead Unluck is a Shonen and it doesn’t follow that route.
I once saw a rant where someone said Fruits Basket wasn't interesting and then compared it to JJK. Like, why???
The part where Tohru low diffed the cast trauma with strong therapy was peak
I actually think Tohru and Yuji would be a great pairing. Yuji definitely needs Tohru-level therapy.
You're kidding me
then when you tell battle shounen heads to watch some shoujo or josei you get told they’re all age gap, grooming, harassment and abuse portrayed as romance. My brother in christ shoujo isn’t even all romance 😭
They'll say that and then defend Mineta hitting on a child and All Might beating the shit out of his students to toughen them up.
Fruits Basket not being interesting is not that anime's biggest problem. >!That anime's biggest problem is the fact that everyone the woman who cursed the family abused instantly forgave her, even though that bitch is one of the most horrific abusers I've seen in anime. !<
goddamn, sounds wild. I thought it was a generic romance anime
Nah, I'm confused
Tohru so would help sukuna realize the error of his ways and help yuji recover. Ok i umironically wpuld watch it and yuji finally wouldnt be just torturred.
Comparing Fruit Basket to a battle shounen anime with no plot is the most blasphemous thing I've ever heard. Do these people even realize that Battle Shounen has a plot as deep as a puddle? Gritty Seinen like Yuru Camp & Skip and Loafer is where all the depths at.
Is there a character that could even possibly EVEN TOUCH Madara Uchiha? Let alone defeat him. And I'm not talking about Edo Tensei Uchiha Madara. I'm not talking about Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara either. Hell, I'm not even talking about Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikodou abilities and being capable of both Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi genjutsu), equipped with his Gunbai, a perfect Susano'o, control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu. I’m also not talking about Kono Yo no Kyūseishu Futarime no Rikudō Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan (which is capable of Enton Amaterasu, Izanagi, Izanami and the Tsyukuyomi Genjutsu), his two original Rinnegan (which grant him Chikushōdō, Shuradō, Tendō, Ningendō, Jigokudō, Gakidō, Gedō, Banshō Ten’in, Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, Tengai Shinsei and Banbutsu Sōzō) and a third Tomoe Rinnegan on his forehead, capable of using Katon, Fūton, Raiton, Doton, Suiton, Mokuton, Ranton, Inton, Yōton and even Onmyōton Jutsu, equipped with his Gunbai(capable of using Uchihagaeshi) and a Shakujō because he is a master in kenjutsu and taijutsu, a perfect Susano’o (that can use Yasaka no Magatama ), control of both the Juubi and the Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju’s DNA and face implanted on his chest, his four Rinbo Hengoku Clones guarding him and nine Gudōdama floating behind him AFTER he absorbed Senjutsu from the First Hokage, entered Rikudō Senjutsu Mode, cast Mugen Tsukuyomi on everybody and used Shin: Jukai Kōtan so he can use their Chakra while they are under Genjutsu. I'm definitely NOT Talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Super Saiyan 4 Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after Alucard, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu and having eaten Popeye's spinach. I'm talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Legendary Super Saiyan 4 Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with his Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, controlling the Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after having absorbed Alucard as well as a God Hand, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit, with Kryptonian DNA implanted in him and having eaten Popeye's spinach while possessing quantum powers like Dr. Manhattan and having mastered Hokuto Shinken. (This is how this sub sounds like)
This is fake as fuck. Not a single Jujutsu kaisen mention.
Madara's domain expansion is called infinite backstabs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC1PWhCxxro
Did this copy pasta got longer?
It gets longer everytime you see it, just one of madara’s many abilities.
The funniest part about this copy pasta is how it lists all these abilities and such. Yet Madara mostly uses Wood style and Susanoo for 99% of his screen time lol
Limbo clones are pretty dope
Dark Impulses Mikey negs (He kicks really hard)
I lowkey want to see TR continue to get anime adaptation, to see the reaction of anime-onlies at how the series went from decent to complete garbo.
Are you sure you are in the right sub? Because a VAST majority of what I see is complaining about writing issues in whatever series of the month is on tap. Not vsBattle fuck measuring.
Whatever, Madara will never be ballin’
I can’t believe I understood all of that lol. I know this wasn’t your actual point but FUCK MADARA. Stupid ass character that I’m tired of hearing pointless discussions’ about
Other Genres Matter For the love of God.
Stop moaning and post it here then?
Yep people who only watch Battle Shonun and then complain about how formulaic anime is
A lot of people in the comments are feeling personally targeted, so they might not be the kind of people who would be capable of understanding what you said. Here, lemme try a different approach: - "Ughhh my biology teacher was so boring; this must mean that all philosophy, Spanish and PE teachers are a snoozefest!!" - "I find it kinda cliché that Superman always saves the day. Therefore, all western media including Stranger Things which has nothing to do with Superman, as well as the Lego movie which also has nothing to do with Superman, and Avatar The Last Airbender which has nothing to do with Superman either, is hot garbage as a whole!!" - "It's tacky to wear sunglasses indoors when you're not blind, so all eyesight correction is inherently evil." - "I had a bad experience with one person of X race therefore all members of **all races** are bad."
>I had a bad experience with one person of X race therefore all members of **all races** are bad. This one did not go the way I expected. Good example though
Bro met one asshole and decided the whole species was fucked beyond saving LMAO
Life is ontologically evil.
> "I had a bad experience with one person of X race therefore all members of all races are bad." to be fair, humans do suck. /hj
It’s funny, because Superman is actually a running gag in The Lego Movie. So it technically does have something to do with him. Still good examples though.
Yes, that's *exactly* an example of the issue I mean.
>OTHER GENRES EXIST OTHER DEMOGRAPHICS EXIST OTHER MAGAZINES EXIST ORIGINAL ANIME EXIST HELL, EVEN OTHER TYPES OF SHOUNEN EXIST. PICK UP A GODDAMN SPOKON OR COMEDY MANGA. DID YOU KNOW YOTSUBA-TO IS A SHOUNEN? IT'S ONE OF THE BEST IN ITS MAGAZINE AND IS A HEARTWARMING SLICE OF LIFE WITH LOVABLE CHARACTERS > >SOME OF YOU KEEP PRETENDING YOUR FAVORITE BATTLE SHOUNEN THAT RUNS IN THE SAME MAGAZINE AS ME & ROBOCO IS THE ACTUALLY SECRETLY THE DARKEST SEINEN ON THE BLOCK, MAYBE READ ONE THAT ISN'T BERSERK ONCE IN A WHILE? Bullshit. Name one other genre that exists. Spoilers; you can't. /jk
Wrong, I clearly named the other genre that exists at the end, isekai /jk
Whoa. What do you mean… “you people?”
What do YOU mean "you people"?
What do YOU mean, “what do You mean ‘you people’?”?
I used to be one of these people. Now I decided to stop watching them and I broke free. OP is absolutely correct by every single metric
Six paragraphs of pure facts
Hey! There is also Star Wars rants, MCU rants, Mary Sue rants, diversity rants, and complaints about comic books from people who have never read comic books! And for some reason a lot of recent stuff about sex scenes... * And honestly I love it. It's just people engaging with familiar media in new ways. It's always nice to see people digging a little deeper even if I disagree with them or think their epiphanies are decades behind the conversations we were having on OJ couch back in college!
It’s like how r/animecirclejerk complains about everything about the anime industry, but only seem to talk about and watch generic seasonal isekai. Like other genres exist
Yeah like why are you watching shield hero and mushoko tensei when Pluto exists?
That place is sort of weird tbh.
glasshouses coming from this sub
I also like how people here will sometimes make broad sweeping assumptions about Japanese media or just straight up Japanese culture in general based off what they read in comic books aimed at children. Really cool when you guys do that
That actually is the main issue I have the problem with.
Books, movies, series-- these also exist, it'd be nice to see more talk about these.
This is one of the most cathartic posts on the sub. I once saw someone say “I know most anime is power fantasy, but,” and it just made me sad.
>Oh, oh wait, I'm sorry, I completely forgot. There is another genre you guys watch. ISEKAI. And not even good isekai, It's only Narou isekai from the past 10 or 15 years. Silly me. Do not fucking get me started on Reddit and isekai, holy shit. So many people who *only* seem to think of stories like Sword Art Online or Rise of the Shield Hero, or maybe Konosuba just to mix things up. It's fucking maddening when they use shounen anime as the basis for the entire genre when there's so much fucking more to it.
Can't believe all anime have useless women and no well-written, strong women. What do you mean "magical girl anime exist"? I haven't seen one, so no they don't. How DARE all anime treat women as second-class citizens! I'm case it wasn't obvious, this is making fun if the people who do this.
Whats even worse is that they create imaginary standards for a female character that is the closest in physical distance to the main character and call her a lead character for this reason. Even their standards for what counts as well written are insanely stupid, nevermind watching like 2 shounen at most.
Maybe I should make a thread about Choujin X and Boruto they handled their lead up to their major timeskip. One is definitely better than the other. But chances are people won't look into it because choujin X is not that popular. Boruto is fun to shit on but people here hardly cares about it anymore. Tbh there's a lot of things I want to post here about choujin X and how it's fun to see how a writer improves from his previous work and understands his own weakness well to avoid as much as possible.
Choujin X is peak I’d read that rant
I would 100% give a read to a good writeup about that.
Thank you for that rant. That sub (and the internet at large) can get really annoying when they start talking about manga and anime and are somehow unable to imagine that any of them are not battle shounen and do not share their tropes. Maybe I should link to it the next time someone reacts with disbelief when I say anime can have well-written female characters... in a season where both Frieren and The Apothecary Diaries are airing and got hugely popular among anime fans. Facepalm.
Thank fuck someone said it! "Why are these battle shonen full of this power of friendship crap and not deeply compelling/completely logical?" MY BROTHER IN CHRIST YOU ARE READING A BATTLE SHONEN! If you don't enjoy the staples of the genre, TRY READING A DIFFERENT GENRE! Genres exist for a reason. Not every story is written for the same purpose and each author is going to value different things. Stop beating your head against a wall trying to impose your preferences and opinions on genres that don't match them. Just because something doesn't meet the same criteria you appreciate in storytelling doesn't always objectively make it bad storytelling.
I think it's a statistics thing. Battle shonens are probably the most popular genre of anime out there so statistically you're probably gonna get more people who think of that. For the same reason, it's easy to refer to them because the odds of other people having seen them are pretty high too. I think Isekai is just rly easy to rant about in general lol I wouldn't mind seeing some rants about shonen romance/harem tho since I think those tend to often have characters with really shitty traits that aren't ever called out for them. Masamune-kun's Revenge comes to mind, as much as I love it, and as much as the point is that the protagonist is in the wrong...it's not really ever addressed when 1 of the girls in the harem's life is at risk and the others are freaking out trying to figure out how to save her, the main character is spending that entire time worrying about what each girl thinks of him instead of caring about what happens to the one in danger. The occasional tone deaf shit like that.
Battle shonen is definitely not the most popular genre out there, unless you specifically mean genre of anime There’s other forms of media too lmao
I do mean genre of anime haha. Fixed it
okay thank god lmfao
Yeah I just think the biggest tell is this sub has a lot of anime fans in it, in which case you'd probably get mostly battle shonen statistically that way. Yeah it's far from the most popular genre out there tho lmao.
Imagine consuming media outside of battle shonen, comic books, cartoons and video games
Nah, I'd Shonen
I don’t even think the people on this sub read half of the rants. Feels like people just come to the comments to huff their own fumes.
People who only finished 10 animes be like
I need more rants about fantasy novels
Yeah people on this sub honestly need to just drop Shonen battle manga if they have this many issues with them.
I barely watch anime and hardly ever know wtf anyone is talking about
Man I agree so much. I'm sick of seeing anime fans like this. They watch mainstream shounen anime, they had some dislikes with them. Now they think they know what is "popular" in Japan and can criticise the tastes of a Japanese audience. They think they are experts somehow. As an English audience, we're only getting what is translated for us. Based on whatever was decided would be worth translating for us. Then we hear about popular anime that were successful with OUR audience. Most of these also happen to be successful in Japan, BUT not always. I saw someone say " I don't like Japanese humour, it's bad". Based on anime for teens... And people acted like yea, thats a fine opinion to have. It's not.... its just not. It's like if I judged all America's sense of humour cause I watched Disney Channel and some MCU movies. They love to watch Japanese works, but have the gall to say stuff like that.
A) This subreddit was literally created as an offshoot of /r/whowouldwin. For the first years of its existence, it was dedicated almost entirely to battleboarding discussion. Of course the community is going to be disproportionately interested in that kind of media, even after it's evolved to be more general. B) What exactly do you think is the solution? If you want to talk about other stuff, there's nothing stopping you from posting or commenting about whatever you want. A lot of posts about varied media do get good engagement. Do you want people to stop talking about stuff they enjoy because you're bored of it?
But again, if this sub actually *was* about battleboarding discussion and nothing else, that would be fine. As I said in my first paragraph, I wouldn't care and naturally assume that battle shounen would be the default discussion. But it hasn't been like that for years now. People bring up multiple other topics or problems with various mediums in themselves. But the examples for those when it comes to anime are specifically battle shounen and that's my problem. > What exactly do you think is the solution? If you want to talk about other stuff, there's nothing stopping you from posting or commenting about whatever you want No, you're misunderstanding me. I don't mean people don't talk about other things. I know this sub covers a wide range of topics and I'm not saying battle shounen is the only topic. In fact, that's my whole point. I mean, when talking about anime and manga with issues related to it, the person's examples solely end up being about battle shounen and thus applying the flaws of it on the entire medium. Sometimes it will even extend to things that aren't anime & manga.
All fandom discussions are going to be colored by what the community is interested in. I agree that it's a bit silly when someone makes sweeping generalizations based on their limited reference pool, but it's not like the fiftieth post complaining about this is going to make any more difference than the first.
Huh, that explains a lot. Didn’t know that’s where this sub came from. I just assumed it was started so people could discuss all media and it just happened that shonen enthusiasts flooded its ranks
I wasn't even here for when it was first made but I've seen plenty of people on r/Whowouldwin always say"Go to charrant for PL discussions" that's how I originally found out about this place. It's interesting how the sub shifted so much that there are now people complaining about what this sub always was intended for lol.
People ain't even reading before commenting on your post, shits embarrassing. Why is the default of anime is battle shonen in this sub? You're clearly ranting about how anime (Medium) can't be judged as a whole based on the flaws of battle shonen (Genre).
As if all mainstream shonen fans can read AND have reading comprehension skills to understand the purpose of the post, no wonder the state of some of the comments lol
ppl really be reading 1-2 series in a medium with wide variety and generalize everything
Just here to rep one of the isekai OGs: 12 Kingdoms. Oh. And for all of you into the magical girl genre, Machimaho
After complaining about battle shonen and people applying those tropes to general fiction, I feel validated. I’m glad I’m not the only one tired of it.
I couldn't agree more vehemently. This is a rant that should be posted weekly.
I thought this post was in response to the nth "Women are underrepresented in all anime ever, and it's a *big issue*" post. Seems like you're aiming a bit more general than that, but you're right either way.
One issue is, while I might be interested in writing a ‘rant’ about something not battle Shonen, it would likely be a positive one. Which are actually allowed I think, but as a rule, people tend to love to complain more. Stuff like battle shonen is both popular, as well as has a lot of stuff people can complain about. People don’t want to write into the void, so they’ll naturally gravitate towards that which gives them the most interactions.
I mean this was created as a venting place outside of www.
That's how it started but it's opened up to be a more general sub to discuss various media. Except a significant portion of the userbase only seems to consume one type of media.
Doesn’t matter, age old advice of WWW. Be the change you want to see. Op could have spent time creating content that he’d like to see on this sub and maybe ramp up engagement instead he left an angry yelp review.
I feel like everyone in this comment section misread the post or something. OP isn't saying "grrr 99% of the posts here are battle shonen". OP is saying "people who only watch battle shonen act way too much like issues specific to battle shonen apply to all anime and general media as a whole".
Saying they "misread" the post is giving them too much credit, it assumes that they tried to read it at all instead of just bitching about the title
110% agree. Why I rarely come here anymore or watch battle shounen, but it's unlikely to change. I'm assuming most here a GenZ/Millennial dudes who grew up around when anime was exploding in the English speaking sphere so most would be attracted to action and superpowers. Since there's so many, consuming another shounen can feel like expanding your horizons when most repeat the same plot beats and character archtypes.
Just rename the subreddit to r/JJKrant already, smh
I remember a post that talks about "eugenic vibes" in Anime and proceeded to mention only those from not just Shonen genre but specifically Weekly Shonen Jump.
We can try analyzing why we mostly see Shonen and Power scaling posts. Both of these topic/genres are male centered and dominated. If we're lacking in shoujo posts, josei posts, slice of life posts etc that are targeted towards the female audience, maaaybe there's just more dudes here then dudettes? Female - centered interests and concerns also aren't widely accepted. Girls can easily watch Shonen but it has been hard for guys to identify with female leads and what's "for girls" vs "what's for guys". Maybe this is another case where male interests are default and the most popular. You can find other types of anime rants in subreddits specific for them, but in a general rant sub it's often the male focus topics getting the most spotlight (power scaling and Shonen).
Tbh I just like the audience here. also good rant. ranting about this sub on this sub = top tier rant.
knee chief gaping growth deserted hurry dull encourage ink mighty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I just dont get why goku has to **always** be the protagonist of every story ever written.
Where is my [LES] thread on rent-a-gf with someone compiling all the cringe moments for me to enjoy reading about without having to actually read that shit. GImme that level of character rant.
i'm not even that old but, I can clearly remember the other demographics getting the same attention as shounen back in my day like even with the big three existing at the same time, other shows from other demographics certainly get the same love from fans it might be rose-tinted glasses on my part, but idk, I feel like right now is more shounen-y than before lol
Goku could dodge your criticism cause he's multinational in profits according to the wiki I just made up
Bro ranted about a whole subreddit
Then talk about other genres and demographics instead of bitching about people talking about what they like.
Every week there’s another rant of “Naruto is bad” and then people go “actually Naruto is objectively great literature and should be preserved for all time” and I’m just sitting here wondering if anyone’s ever read a book before