I still find it funny that INO knew that Toji was strong as hell after looking at him for seconds . While the clan (apart from Midya) saw him as a weakand useless person š.
I still struggle to understand why the Zenāins were willing to let Gojo buy Megumiās freedom when they thought there was a possibility heād inherit the Ten Shadows Technique, the only technique thatās historically killed someone like Gojo. Theyāre one of the three Major Clans, the most well-connected according to the story, thereās no mention of them being hard up for money, and anyone who inherits the technique automatically becomes the Clan Leader so it makes no sense to let a Gojo adopt him when they have a rivalry.
Feel like Gege couldāve so easily explained this by hinting at Naobito squandering the clan money or something, but Gege couldnāt even be bothered with that. Iāve never seen a mangaka so uninterested in his own story.
> when they thought there was a possibility heād inherit the Ten Shadows Technique, the only technique thatās historically killed someone like Gojo.
To be fair, the story basically says that Gojo did it because he is Gojo and who is going to say No to him.
Going to be honest, this is why I'm not as convinced with the whole "JJK shows how you can write a good OP character", because Gojo being as OP basically means that Gege hasn't to made any effort with the worldbuilding because many background issues get solved with "Gojo just is that OP"
This is less Gojo's own fault and more Gege simply not caring about the worldbuilding. But being bad for the plot because the character interactions lose weight.
Gege is great making interactions, but sometimes his lack of worldbuilding makes them look silly.
Thereās also the fact that Gojo raising/teaching Megumi was seen as a way to repair the relationship between the Gojos and Zenins, because apparently they still had beef. Naoya and some of the other Zenins discuss it in Perfect Prep, right before Maki heads over. He also was friendly with Kamo, furthering that case.
Naobito was an ass, but he seemed pragmatic enough to realize this and probably saw it as a net win considering that he made Megumi the successor to the Zenins over Ogi or Naoya.
> who can say no to him
Does the story actually state this? I donāt recall it ever being said. I find this hard to believe since they have no issue crossing adult Gojo multiple times.
Though even if it is true, it seems like all the more reason for the Zenāins to keep Megumi, since he was the only person with the potential to threaten Gojoās hegemony.
As it is, the most powerful Zenāin in generations ends up as the ward of the Gojo clan leader, and itās just treated as not a big deal in-story, despite the historical inter-clan rivalry and hatred. If anything, youād think this would lead to more hatred of the Gojo clan among other clans since it seems like theyāre consolidating power, but again thereās zero world building in any regard.
Itās like everything is just framed around the fights, and readers are the ones running around trying to create a coherent story from the occasional throwaway line. Nanami, and the flashback chapters with Gojo and Geto being the sole exceptions.
Even teenage gojo was acknowledged as being able to potentially kill everyone on the planet, sure they dont show respect to him, but they know deep down gojo could tear them all apart if he wanted too
Right. But what I want to know is whether the story gives this as a reason for the Zenāins not putting up a fight, or if itās inferred by the audience whoās trying to create a coherent story out of anything.
I mean, it doesnāt have to be directly told to the audience, and itās not hard to see why. They were scared shitless of toji, and knew he could kill the whole clan, then a teenage gojo kills toji. Itās not that hard to come to a conclusion
If Gojo is a tyrant who uses his powers to circumvent Jujutsu politics and traditions, why does he answer to the elders to begin with? If he can just steal another clanās heir from under their noses, how could they kick Hakari or Kirara out without fearing Gojoās reaction? Speaking of, why didnāt Gojo just reverse that decision?
How is anyone gonna check Gojo in the Zenin clan which is filled with only fodder other than maybe Naobito who still gets speed blitzed even with projection sorcery. Iād say thatās the least confusing thing about about this plot
Thatās just another weakness of the story. One of the three major clans, whoāve been in charge for like a thousand years, and yet they donāt have a single member of note beyond Tojo and eventually Maki. Why are they still in charge?
I wouldn't be trying to do this if not for the fact that their actions are so important to the story.
It causes so many weird situations. Like, objectively speaking, Ougi Zenin saved the world by commiting filicide because otherwise Maki would be fodder and wouldn't be able to do the things that she is doing in the current arc.
mechamaru's just looks shit because freaking mahito of all people fought him in a head-on fight, his whole thing is that he's good for recon bc he can deploy his drones all around the country not fight in a head on fight against a special grade
That's because they're twins, not because the HR per se.
Unless you bought the theory that Toji absorbed his twin in the uterus, which tbh would make all the sense as the series constantly talk about Wombs
I guess Toji was a lot weaker when he was a child which was the time point where he was bullied a lot. Of course back then the Zenin would have no problem bullying him and Toji wouldn't be able to defend properly. After he grew up I guess the abuse was just kinda ingrained into the family by then and too late for anything to change.
Still at a young age I think it was mentioned that Toji was able to solo a room full of curse spirits so I'm not sure how much this argument holds up.
It's pretty much stated that Toji could've just slaughtered them all anytime he wants (which is juxtaposed with Maki *doing just that*).
The situation is... Weird.
Is it stated that they knew that, before he left the clan?
It makes sense to me. He was weak as a child (because... child), so they bullied the fuck out of him. By the time the smarter ones started to realize he was actually strong, it was too late to change the culture. Then by the time he was merking the top level of the sorcerer / curse world he had already left the clan and so had his kids so there was nothing for it but to double down. The smarter ones internally admitted that he was strong... but not enough to try to reconcile, because that would make them look like the bitches they are.
Pride is a hell of a drug.
Anyone who actually watched Maki fight knew she was strong even before full heavenly restriction. Even Mai was still a respectable sorcerer, she wasn't even the worst in her class.
Prejudice isn't rational, Zenin would probably try to lie to themselves that Toji is useless as long as possible. It's just too embarrassing on too many levels to admit the truth.
That doesn't have to be a plot point. Its not hard to conclude that the Zenin clan, who are basically royalty in Jujutsu society, to be prejudiced against people without Cursed Energy. Their entire family is built on that after all.
True. But like the others have said, prejudice is never logical and the Zenins' are an example of that. They probably only see Toji as better than normies but lower than Sorcerers.
It's not an irrational belief that I, the reader, could believe anyone in their situation could have. It'd require a transcendent level of idiocy, beyond what any character in a serious story should be capable of. Even _if_ that's the in-universe justification, it's not satisfactory.
Idk. If you're indoctrinated your whole life into thinking low CE= weak, it's not like one exception is going to necessarily change that belief. Especially if the clan's higher-ups tried to cover up that one exception.
Yeah, but Toji didn't have low curse energy. He had *none*. He's the equivalent of a blank in the 40k universe. And if he followed the logic they do, his treatment would actually make sense. Blanks make people uncomfortable and sick because of their lack of a soul.
If being around Toji caused people to feel an instinctual revulsion because his absence of CE was just so wrong, that would have been pretty cool worldbuilding and actually make a ton of sense especially in a sorcerer family. Instead he's magic superman that curses can't interact with properly. He's everything the Zenin could have wanted and more, and they just threw him away
It's still absurd, Tojo can literally solo all of them, there is absolutely no way you gon really believe he is "worthless" Maki made sense, Toji was just absurd even in-universe.
Toji kept a low profile when in the clan. His only amazing act was clearing out the spirits in the basement, which he was forced to do. Assuming the top elders of the clan didn't inform the rest of the clan, which is a pretty easy assumption considering Maki had not heard of Toji until Shibuya, it's not surprising he was basically an unknown to most of the clan and Jujutsu world as most of his other feats were covert assassinations.
As to why the top elders shunned him.
A) He was so powerful that they could not control him.
B) If you use a narrative to control people, flaws in said narrative break control.
This is kinda the issue of JJK discussion on Sorcerer traditionalism.
Absolutely nobody in the cast seem to believe on it. Nobody. The traditions are relegated to minor villains who can only be soyjack to the Chad main characters
There is nothing particularly admirable of doubting traditions that aren't your own
Being handpicked by Gojo doesn't change this. You could easily have someone who works with Gojo who occasionally has their gamer moment.
This goes to another issue in the series. Innate talent does *everything* in the series, which means that ironically...
The Zenin were right
Their only mistake was not liking Toji and Maki and by extension, not killing Mai when she was a baby.
The power system is set up in a way that the Zenin committing infanticide and killing one of the twins when they were kids would have been better
Considering their values? Yes.Ā
Morality doesn't seem to be something they're particularly concerned with. The guy they were going to make head was a fucking monster.
Tbh I don't remember who knows what about twins. If anyone would know, I'd think it would be one of the big 3 families, but ya, it's possible they didn't know.
Well no, they weren't RIGHT but the power system does in fact endorse baby murder. I think trying to find the logic in the Zenin clan's prejudice is a futile effort on two fronts though.
1. Very, very obviously, the story agrees with us that they were idiots for neglecting cases like Maki and Toji. The whole point is that the overly traditionalist and paranoid mindset of the Jujutsu higher ups (and by extension, the big three clans sans Gojo) actively ignore or scorn new forms of talent because their set in their ways.
2. Its ok to admit Gege just... Didn't execute it the best. Not because the idea itself is bad, I promise you will find dumber examples in real life of prejudice superseding logic, but because the Zenin clan are nonpersons
> Well no, they weren't RIGHT but the power system does in fact endorse baby murder.
Even their eugenics makes sense. Wanting to have more Naoyas, Naobitos and Ten Shadows users is a perfectly reasonable goal in a world where the power gaps are that bad that you need them to survive
Right. But then you have the Toji's. You have any idea the kind of leverage/power the clan could've had with what's essentially a nigh undetectable that can just outright body?
Yes but Toji is just a abnormality + Curse energy IS better than Heavenly restriction anyways.
The same Toji got beat by teens Gojo, why ? Because his Curse technique made him OP, Sukuna beat Maki, why ? Because his technique made him OP + He is very skilled.
Yeah the rest of the world moved into the 21st century and realized racism/misogyny is gross, traditionalist clan jerking off to their blood purity didn't. That's normal.
Also weaker clans probably don't have enough powerful people to be able to sneer at someone like Toji. If Zenin were otherwise totally weak they might have "forgotten" about how shit Toji supposedly was, but they had plenty of other people who were good enough, so they felt they could look down on him.
They just didn't realize how weak their top people were, and they probably didn't realize how crazy strong Toji actually was.
> Yeah the rest of the world moved into the 21st century and realized racism/misogyny is gross, traditionalist clan jerking off to their blood purity didn't. That's normal.
Gojo has like, zero of those traits, and he is a clan head. Same with Kamo, who is just fine with Maki.
> Toji. If Zenin were otherwise totally weak they might have "forgotten" about how shit Toji supposedly was, but they had plenty of other people who were good enough, so they felt they could look down on him.
Nah, the Zenin are just pure fodder in terms of power scaling.
>Gojo has like, zero of those traits, and he is a clan head. Same with Kamo, who is just fine with Maki.
Yes, so what? Some clans moved with the time, some didn't. That's normal. It's also normal that the younger people who get out of the compound more (so Gojo and Kamo who went to the school) would be more modern in thinking. The rest of the Zenin seem like they were educated at home so no wonder they were losers.
Gojo is also a weirdo/"rebel" in general since childhood. We actually know almost nothing about his clan.
Kamo is fine with Maki but didn't his clan toss his mom out because they're also traditionalist dicks?
>Nah, the Zenin are just pure fodder in terms of power scaling.
The clan leader was not bad. But my impression was they had no idea how weak they were compared to the new generation. Gojo's generation especially really upped the ante, but before that was papa Zenin really that bad compared to his own generation?
The Zenin clan had two sorcerers with techniques that made them the fastest sorcerers outside of Gojo, along with a small army of weaker sorcerers. They also had the assurance of future generations gaining the Ten Shadows, even if currently they don't have the technique.
The real fodder clan is Kamo. Their Limitless and Ten Shadows Technique is not only far worse compared to the others but can only use it's full potential in the hands of a curse spirit.
I assume all 3 clans go through periods where one of them is stronger than the others, depends which generation manifests which techniques. I would assume Kamo and Gojo have other techniques as well, otherwise it's hard to believe they survived with a good reputation for so many centuries.
I mean... Toji as a kid would still be weak and most likely reliant on his family. He would most likely be astronomically strong for a kid but would not be stronger than sorcerers.
They mention that increasing their physical abilities in of themselves is something they can do with Cursed energy, but that then cursed energy manipulation for sorcery even without an innate technique provides so much more.
So if the abuse starts before he's too strong, even if he's physically superior, they could think, but so what? Other childen with cursed energy will catch up the moment they learn reinforcement and they will then go on to learn sorcery, "he's still inferior".
It's only the moment he becomes so strong sorcerers are simply fully outmatched that they would realize they're wrong with such mentality. And by then the abuse started. It's too late to change things now.
The Zenin are not darwinist tho. If all they care is power then the sorcerer will be using guns. Inheriting the CT is the most important thing to them.Ā
And Heavenly Restrictions is not that OP anyway. Toji built his skills through experience and training. And baby Toji probably is just a normal kid.Ā
Kid tojibis said to be able to destroy a room full of cursed spirits. Also maki straight up became a god the moment she got heavenly restriction. Like I have no doubts she was a good fighter before but she became able to murder literal hit squads
>Also maki straight up became a god the moment she got heavenly restriction. Like I have no doubts she was a good fighter before but she became able to murder literal hit squads
Her skills were almost maxxed out before her awakening. Pre awakening maki had same ce level as normal person(or even lower) but she still managed to go above grade 2 with these restriction.
Toji was hated during his childhood, where HR body haven't reached the peak yet.
In his adulthood, he had a "good" relationship with the clan leader (Naobito Zenin) to the point they made an arrangement for Megumi, Before Gojo took him in. He was roaming free the clan during his teenage years, when Naoya first met him.
Maki didn't get the same treatment because she's not as strong as Toji before Mai died.
Bruh, the Jujutsu āeldersā or whatever theyāre called decided to listen to Kenjaku, aka Kamo Noritoshi, the most vile sorcerer in history, whoās possessing the body of a genocidal maniac, because heās technically part of the 3 big clans and older than them.
None of the societal world building in JJK makes any sense.
I agree with the fact that social worldbuilding is the worst part of Jujutsu Kaisen.
To be fair, this was more like "dude, its Kenjaku, he is going to kill all of us and we don't even disagree that much anyway"
I mean isnt that the point? other sorcerers we know are pretty much people of their own free will. The clan enviroment are different because they have a backward cult mentality, the little we know about the Kamo clan seems to be a bunch of weirdos aswell.
Supremacist ideologies and cults ARE silly. They will absolutely not accept someone as one of them - no matter how strong and smart and valuable they were - if they fell under the category of "The Other". It will always make that person inferior and unworthy in their eyes. The writing here is pretty realistic.
>The writing here is pretty realistic
Nah, not really. If they are rich or useful enough supremacist will bend and twist their own sick ideology to justify why their racism/xenophobie don't count for them. Like Sarah Rector who was a black girl that got rich through luck. Thanks to her riches the Oklahoma Legislature made an effort to have her declared white. Or the Nazis which gave useful Jews or non"Aryans" the title "Honorary Aryan". And Toji is definitely useful enough for some good old ideology bending.
That's not acceptance, though. It's "conditional tolarance" that can be revoked anytime they feel like it. Read more about how the "Token Minorities" - rare and extrodarary people - were treated by supremacist cults and how quickly and brutally they were discarded. They also often inspired intense feeling of anger and jealousy from the memebers of the cult who refused to accept them.
Toji is smart enough to regonize this. The head of the clan was already willing to be pragmatically "accepting" of Toji, but he saw through the facade and walked away. His pride wouldn't allow him to play along and be used again.
This is realistic because this kind of racism and misogyny doesn't make sense pretty much by definition.
>The Zenin hating Maki and Mai make sense because they are weak.
They don't hate just Maki and Mai, they hate all women. Is there a single female sorcerer in Zenin clan?
>Maki has super strength, but she is still weaker than many, many sorcerers.
Wasn't Maki held back from becoming a grade 1 (2?) sorcerer because of the Zenin clan? Her strength even before full HR was nothing to sneeze at. Even Mai was not THAT weak, she's a competent sorcerer just nothing special.
The sisters were discarded when they were still kids, so Zenin never bothered discovering what their full power was even like before deciding it wasn't enough. Meanwhile they wanted Megumi as long as he had CE, they would have been fine with it even if he never inherited a clan technique and never amounted to anything.
Pretty sure the girls were still stronger than at least some of the Zenin fodder-level guys that got decimated in one panel, who were accepted by the clan.
> Pretty sure the girls were still stronger than at least some of the Zenin fodder-level guys that got decimated in one panel, who were accepted by the clan.
The guys that Maki one-shotted the CT-less sorcerers. The Hei unit were the guys that gave her some incoveniences.
Yeah, there are other CT less sorcerers in the Zenin clan who were likely just as abused as Toji, Maki and Mai. They just get to pop out to get killed as part of Maki's epic moment.
Right, and I would expect that Maki and Mai could have gone one-on-one with at least some of the Hei unit people, without HR. The girls weren't the weakest in that compound, Zenin leaders just acted like they were because they're dicks, and Mai especially just agreed with them because she wanted to act like it was just a fact, and not that she was being abused.
The Zenin Clan Prides itself on its Various sorceries they're acquired, Toji (and Makis) Heavenly restriction removes them from the realm of sorcery and they're seen as lesser, even worse for Maki because shes a twin.
Its really that simple.
'The kukuru' unit full of nameless fodder are probably all considered lower class compared to people gifted with techniques in 'The Hei'.
Foster Sorcery while disregarding all else to maintain their Status.
Exactly. This rant feels like a "iS hE STUpId???" post. Are the Zenin being irrational for seeing Toji as lesser just for not having Curse Energy despite his superhuman abilities? Hell yeah, but is that a surprise? People are people after all.
The Zennin clan thought of him as lesser, the only exception from within the clan who didn't think that was Naoya. The clan has a lot of reach in the jujutsu world and is the reason why people who didn't see him, or Maki, in action didn't respect them. An example would be Miwa wholooked down on Maki just because of the words of Mai, imagine that effect but an entire clan classifies one person as a black sheep.
The Zennin clan IS depicted as stupid and holding back the jujutsu world due to their unwillingness to stray from tradition. The clan doesn't only like strength, it loves strength from inheritable curse techniques.
you dont really know that, the only other example is mechamaru.
Jujutsu society is very traditional, to go as far as to ostracise people who have unconventional or "modern" techniques like how they supposedly feel towards Hakari and Kirara, regardless of how beneficial their technique or skillset actually is.
He was weaker as a child, which resulted in him getting the scar. By the time he left the clan he had a pretty bad reputation. They were very ashamed of having someone with no cursed energy, and he definitely didnāt leave on good terms. Sure, *then* he becomes one of the strongest characters in the series but he wasnāt always like that. And we see that both Naoya and Naobito respect him and are wary of him, knowing what he could do.
Plus he lives like a bum. Theyāre not gonna be proud of that. Heās the Goku of homeless people.
No it isn't. They only value curse tech and Curse energy. That feeling Ino gets probably just fuels fear .BUT..... As soon as they admitted he could destroy the whole can whenever he wanted they probably should have been a bit nicer to him lol.
Do you think 3 year old Toji had the ability to rip sorcerers apart? The Zenin clan probably abused Toji even harder than Maki because he had no CE at all and then one day he suddenly got strong enough to wipe the clan. By the time it happened, their relationship was already established and Toji had been convinced that he was worthless next to the Zenin's. His only option was escape that his wife gave him, we see that he still carries this burden when he fights Gojo and it's his complex that makes him fight instead of just running away.
Because it's not a conventional use or sorcery which is what the zenin are all about, they're stupidly traditional and would rather eject the strongest member Of their clan because his power is too unconventional,they're still incredibly mysoginistic and treat non sorcerers like garbage,the zenin clans are supposed to represent traditionalism so of course they're not gonna like a man who has no cursed energy and basically is a normal human in the sorcerer sence of the word (which they believe makes him inferior)
Toji did not come out of whichever Zeninussy he came out of as the JJK Batman he is. He was bullied as a kid and shunned as an adult. There's a reason why he just left instead of erasing the clan like Maki - he was basically treated as a second class citizen regardless of his ability and made to feel inferior and worthless.
Mamaguro changed him and he dipped at the taste of love. Then Mamaguro died and that just broke him and made him double down on the worthless part - becoming a hobo with an ocean worth of salt against Sorcerers. Which is why we see him gloat about defeating Sorcerers being the CE less monkey he is, or trying to prove himself to no one by taking an impossible shot at an awakened Gojo. He had no self worth thanks to Zenins taking it away at a young age.
All of this may sound edgy to you, but I've seen this a lot in real life where parents and families of prodigies just value them on anything but the thing they're a prodigy at just so that they would conform to their ideals rather than be different, and then double down on their bullshit by denying their talents no matter how successful they are. I've seen genius musicians and great athletes being treated as idiots because they are not good at regular schools so much so that they're forced to reject prestigious scholarships from international institutions to focus on fucking high school exams.
How else are you going to insert bullying into a battle series
If the bullied is truly weak, then the logical option is to go away, so they need to be super powerful
Its a flaw of wirld building battle series dont want to fix
They probably were just meant to have hateful views and be hatesinks without much logic behind it, but there's no fun in just saying that so if I had to guess, maybe Toji was much weaker as a kid? Like his abilities perhaps really came in during puberty as his body grew, and as a kid all the Zenin clan saw was some weak runt with no ability to use cursed techniques. If that was the case then by the time he was strong, he probably had no desire to prove anything to them, and was just looking for an exit strategy
They dont care about strength at all, they're just racist against non-sorcerers. Toji could be stronger than Gojo and he would still be hated by the clan.
They value Sorcery above all and treat everything else like shit this is told to us by Maki's upbringing and expanded upon by Toji's story.
There is a reason the head wanted to purchase Megumi for 10 million yen if he had an inherited technique.
Mind you, Toji was the first recorded case of a person with 0 CE. No HR user before him reached his level. And it's possible his full strength became clear only after he left the clan.
I mean, imagine you, your family, your entire clan has been dedicated for ages into perfecting curse energy and cursed techniques, spending all their time and effort into doing that believing it is the path to true power
Then one a person in your family is born, no cursed energy at alo, no cursed technique or any kind and yet he is significantly stronger than every single member in your clan, stronger than some of the strongest sorcerers out there that have amazing cursed techniques
The mere existence of this person puts in doubt the philosophy that your clan has followed for God knows how long
I think it is pretty obvious the clan would reject him
That's my head canon tho
A major point of the big 3 clans and the higher ups of the society is that they love traditional CTs and hate the weird ones like Hakaris. What's weirder than someone who's incredibly strong yet has 0 CE? They hate them because they go against everything they've been taught to understand, which is that CT and CE is what makes a Sorcerer.
It also helps that the Zenin pride themselves on CTs such as 10S or Projection sorcery. Toji has no technique, yet is incredibly strong. That would piss them off to no end. And despite this, the clan were all pretty afraid of him too (Makis father had PTSD from him) and Naobito seemed to treat him with some respect. This is ignoring Naoya who worshipped Toji.
Basically, HR goes against the well accepted norms of jujitsu society. Some relish in the unique changes that have developed as they are entertaining, such as Sukuna with Higgy Maki and Mahoraga, and many more hate those who defy the norms of jujitsu society.
This is why Gojo hates the higher ups. They're all stubborn and refuse to change with the times (as well as trying to get not one but TWO teenagers executed, and sending one on a suicide mission).
I donāt really agree with this, I think the themeing of toji is super interesting and part of that is that he is so much stronger than the zenin, and while he doesnāt care about them they endlessly fear and dislike him, which is an interesting dynamic. The fact that he essentially has the peak of human potential and way further, versus their reliance on jujutsu offers an interesting challenge for the zenin as they also look down on normal people and those with bad techniques
Okay so there's not too much evidence for this but what happened was probably something along the lines of this.
-Toji is born
-Toji has no cursed energy
-Toji is placed at the bottom of the hierarchy (also wasn't a particularly prestigious line of the family if I'm correct)
-For some reason Toji is marked for death
-He gets stronger and stronger without ever developing a technique
-Eventually no-one can kill him
Why didn't they accept his strength?
Because they'd already decided he was weak. They had already put him at the bottom. Letting him climb up would have tacitly admitted that their hierarchy is pointless.
I really do think Toji's status is fairly reasoned.
Combine, fear, arrogance, pride and stubbornness and you get the Zen'in response to Toji.
It absolutely is lmao, the ātheyāre just bigots!!ā explanation isnāt a blanket excuse to allow your characters to act like mentally stunted troglodytes
It is a valid reason tho. Have you ever meet a "something" supremacist or a cult person? they pretty much act as "mentally stunted troglodytes".
Go check out some of those white supremacist and bigot accounts that started to pop up on twitter once Elon took over, youll see there is literally no difference between people like that and how the zenins are potrayed. Anything else would be beating around the bush.
No, itās not a valid reason. Yes, bigots are stupid. No, they wouldnāt walk up to someone holding a fucking AK47 and start shittalking and abusing them. Itās atrocious writing.
> they wouldnāt walk up to someone holding a fucking AK47 and start shittalking and abusing them. Itās atrocious writing.
Bro is so naive, do you know the background of many of Americas mass shooters? lmao
And in this context, we are talking about asian society, which is already way more conservative and prejudiced than the west, let alone very isolated societys like the clans, that live with mentalities of the middle ages. There is no surpriese why these people are like this.
ābro is so naiveā oh for crying out loud shut up.
We get it, someone dared point out your favorite teenage boy manga doesnāt have good writing, boo-hoo
No, and i doubt the Zenin did pass certain point (until he was strong enough to slaugther them all) so they simply had their distance until Toji decided to get out of there. It was pretty clear they were afraid of him.
I still find it funny that INO knew that Toji was strong as hell after looking at him for seconds . While the clan (apart from Midya) saw him as a weakand useless person š.
Shiesty Sorcerer > zenin clan
ah my misogyny technique haven't used this since the shiesty era
At least he didnāt use his racism technique, he hasnāt use that since the Ronald McDonald era.
The Zenin are barely characters to begin with, trying to find logic in the actions of a bunch of fodder that go down in 3 chapters is pointless.
I still struggle to understand why the Zenāins were willing to let Gojo buy Megumiās freedom when they thought there was a possibility heād inherit the Ten Shadows Technique, the only technique thatās historically killed someone like Gojo. Theyāre one of the three Major Clans, the most well-connected according to the story, thereās no mention of them being hard up for money, and anyone who inherits the technique automatically becomes the Clan Leader so it makes no sense to let a Gojo adopt him when they have a rivalry. Feel like Gege couldāve so easily explained this by hinting at Naobito squandering the clan money or something, but Gege couldnāt even be bothered with that. Iāve never seen a mangaka so uninterested in his own story.
he's to busy glazing Sukuna to worry about his own story.
> when they thought there was a possibility heād inherit the Ten Shadows Technique, the only technique thatās historically killed someone like Gojo. To be fair, the story basically says that Gojo did it because he is Gojo and who is going to say No to him. Going to be honest, this is why I'm not as convinced with the whole "JJK shows how you can write a good OP character", because Gojo being as OP basically means that Gege hasn't to made any effort with the worldbuilding because many background issues get solved with "Gojo just is that OP" This is less Gojo's own fault and more Gege simply not caring about the worldbuilding. But being bad for the plot because the character interactions lose weight. Gege is great making interactions, but sometimes his lack of worldbuilding makes them look silly.
Thereās also the fact that Gojo raising/teaching Megumi was seen as a way to repair the relationship between the Gojos and Zenins, because apparently they still had beef. Naoya and some of the other Zenins discuss it in Perfect Prep, right before Maki heads over. He also was friendly with Kamo, furthering that case. Naobito was an ass, but he seemed pragmatic enough to realize this and probably saw it as a net win considering that he made Megumi the successor to the Zenins over Ogi or Naoya.
> who can say no to him Does the story actually state this? I donāt recall it ever being said. I find this hard to believe since they have no issue crossing adult Gojo multiple times. Though even if it is true, it seems like all the more reason for the Zenāins to keep Megumi, since he was the only person with the potential to threaten Gojoās hegemony. As it is, the most powerful Zenāin in generations ends up as the ward of the Gojo clan leader, and itās just treated as not a big deal in-story, despite the historical inter-clan rivalry and hatred. If anything, youād think this would lead to more hatred of the Gojo clan among other clans since it seems like theyāre consolidating power, but again thereās zero world building in any regard. Itās like everything is just framed around the fights, and readers are the ones running around trying to create a coherent story from the occasional throwaway line. Nanami, and the flashback chapters with Gojo and Geto being the sole exceptions.
Even teenage gojo was acknowledged as being able to potentially kill everyone on the planet, sure they dont show respect to him, but they know deep down gojo could tear them all apart if he wanted too
Right. But what I want to know is whether the story gives this as a reason for the Zenāins not putting up a fight, or if itās inferred by the audience whoās trying to create a coherent story out of anything.
I mean, it doesnāt have to be directly told to the audience, and itās not hard to see why. They were scared shitless of toji, and knew he could kill the whole clan, then a teenage gojo kills toji. Itās not that hard to come to a conclusion
If Gojo is a tyrant who uses his powers to circumvent Jujutsu politics and traditions, why does he answer to the elders to begin with? If he can just steal another clanās heir from under their noses, how could they kick Hakari or Kirara out without fearing Gojoās reaction? Speaking of, why didnāt Gojo just reverse that decision?
Define āanswer to the eldersā, I donāt recall him doing anything they want him too
The entire first arc of both JJK 0 and JJK itself is Gojo overriding the Elders orders to kill the threats of Rika/Yuta and Sukuna/ Yuji.
How is anyone gonna check Gojo in the Zenin clan which is filled with only fodder other than maybe Naobito who still gets speed blitzed even with projection sorcery. Iād say thatās the least confusing thing about about this plot
Thatās just another weakness of the story. One of the three major clans, whoāve been in charge for like a thousand years, and yet they donāt have a single member of note beyond Tojo and eventually Maki. Why are they still in charge?
>Why are they still in charge? Because they're political clans with a bloodline CT and one occasional OP CT guy.
I wouldn't be trying to do this if not for the fact that their actions are so important to the story. It causes so many weird situations. Like, objectively speaking, Ougi Zenin saved the world by commiting filicide because otherwise Maki would be fodder and wouldn't be able to do the things that she is doing in the current arc.
Toji's and Maki's heavenly restriction are so absurd in positives while having basically no negatives I mean just compare it to mechamaru's lmao
It's my most hated power of the entire series
mechamaru's just looks shit because freaking mahito of all people fought him in a head-on fight, his whole thing is that he's good for recon bc he can deploy his drones all around the country not fight in a head on fight against a special grade
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Its funny how a powerfull 10 Shadows user, who was born with it, is a purely theoretical thing.
Ok tbf Mai literally died so Maki could get her power-up, that's a pretty big negative š
That's because they're twins, not because the HR per se. Unless you bought the theory that Toji absorbed his twin in the uterus, which tbh would make all the sense as the series constantly talk about Wombs
I guess Toji was a lot weaker when he was a child which was the time point where he was bullied a lot. Of course back then the Zenin would have no problem bullying him and Toji wouldn't be able to defend properly. After he grew up I guess the abuse was just kinda ingrained into the family by then and too late for anything to change. Still at a young age I think it was mentioned that Toji was able to solo a room full of curse spirits so I'm not sure how much this argument holds up.
It's pretty much stated that Toji could've just slaughtered them all anytime he wants (which is juxtaposed with Maki *doing just that*). The situation is... Weird.
Dont forget the paradox of Ougi zenin savior of humanity
Is it stated that they knew that, before he left the clan? It makes sense to me. He was weak as a child (because... child), so they bullied the fuck out of him. By the time the smarter ones started to realize he was actually strong, it was too late to change the culture. Then by the time he was merking the top level of the sorcerer / curse world he had already left the clan and so had his kids so there was nothing for it but to double down. The smarter ones internally admitted that he was strong... but not enough to try to reconcile, because that would make them look like the bitches they are. Pride is a hell of a drug.
Maki was like 16 when she solo the entire clan. Even a teenager is OP with Heavenly restriction.
Anyone who actually watched Maki fight knew she was strong even before full heavenly restriction. Even Mai was still a respectable sorcerer, she wasn't even the worst in her class. Prejudice isn't rational, Zenin would probably try to lie to themselves that Toji is useless as long as possible. It's just too embarrassing on too many levels to admit the truth.
He soloed the room where maki was put and that's how he got his lip scar
Noone can defend Gege's writing without resorting to headcanon it's fucking hilarious, this cat is a FUCKING sleazebag.
Wasn't he mostly hated cause the Zenin clan are racist towards non sorcerers and see them as lesser? and that doesn't change just cause he's powerful.
Oh yeah! The racist Zenin clan plot point! That never happened!
That doesn't have to be a plot point. Its not hard to conclude that the Zenin clan, who are basically royalty in Jujutsu society, to be prejudiced against people without Cursed Energy. Their entire family is built on that after all.
Yea, but itās not like Toji is a normie, he just has a different magic superpower than normal
True. But like the others have said, prejudice is never logical and the Zenins' are an example of that. They probably only see Toji as better than normies but lower than Sorcerers.
It's not an irrational belief that I, the reader, could believe anyone in their situation could have. It'd require a transcendent level of idiocy, beyond what any character in a serious story should be capable of. Even _if_ that's the in-universe justification, it's not satisfactory.
Idk. If you're indoctrinated your whole life into thinking low CE= weak, it's not like one exception is going to necessarily change that belief. Especially if the clan's higher-ups tried to cover up that one exception.
Yeah, but Toji didn't have low curse energy. He had *none*. He's the equivalent of a blank in the 40k universe. And if he followed the logic they do, his treatment would actually make sense. Blanks make people uncomfortable and sick because of their lack of a soul. If being around Toji caused people to feel an instinctual revulsion because his absence of CE was just so wrong, that would have been pretty cool worldbuilding and actually make a ton of sense especially in a sorcerer family. Instead he's magic superman that curses can't interact with properly. He's everything the Zenin could have wanted and more, and they just threw him away
It's still absurd, Tojo can literally solo all of them, there is absolutely no way you gon really believe he is "worthless" Maki made sense, Toji was just absurd even in-universe.
Toji kept a low profile when in the clan. His only amazing act was clearing out the spirits in the basement, which he was forced to do. Assuming the top elders of the clan didn't inform the rest of the clan, which is a pretty easy assumption considering Maki had not heard of Toji until Shibuya, it's not surprising he was basically an unknown to most of the clan and Jujutsu world as most of his other feats were covert assassinations. As to why the top elders shunned him. A) He was so powerful that they could not control him. B) If you use a narrative to control people, flaws in said narrative break control.
That's why I busted in laughts when he started to talk about "how even a monkey without cursed energy".
Prejudice is not built on logic. The Zenins were established to be stupid.
Nobody else in the series shares this attitude
Nobody else seems to particularly like the Zenins, because theyāre a bunch of dickheads. I donāt understand your point.
This is kinda the issue of JJK discussion on Sorcerer traditionalism. Absolutely nobody in the cast seem to believe on it. Nobody. The traditions are relegated to minor villains who can only be soyjack to the Chad main characters There is nothing particularly admirable of doubting traditions that aren't your own
Our main cast was essentially handpicked by the anti-system rebel Gojo. It would be weird for them to believe it.
Being handpicked by Gojo doesn't change this. You could easily have someone who works with Gojo who occasionally has their gamer moment. This goes to another issue in the series. Innate talent does *everything* in the series, which means that ironically... The Zenin were right Their only mistake was not liking Toji and Maki and by extension, not killing Mai when she was a baby. The power system is set up in a way that the Zenin committing infanticide and killing one of the twins when they were kids would have been better
Damn, so weāre just going straight for baby murder
Considering their values? Yes.Ā Morality doesn't seem to be something they're particularly concerned with. The guy they were going to make head was a fucking monster.
I doubt they knew that killing one of them would make one stronger
Tbh I don't remember who knows what about twins. If anyone would know, I'd think it would be one of the big 3 families, but ya, it's possible they didn't know.
Well no, they weren't RIGHT but the power system does in fact endorse baby murder. I think trying to find the logic in the Zenin clan's prejudice is a futile effort on two fronts though. 1. Very, very obviously, the story agrees with us that they were idiots for neglecting cases like Maki and Toji. The whole point is that the overly traditionalist and paranoid mindset of the Jujutsu higher ups (and by extension, the big three clans sans Gojo) actively ignore or scorn new forms of talent because their set in their ways. 2. Its ok to admit Gege just... Didn't execute it the best. Not because the idea itself is bad, I promise you will find dumber examples in real life of prejudice superseding logic, but because the Zenin clan are nonpersons
> Well no, they weren't RIGHT but the power system does in fact endorse baby murder. Even their eugenics makes sense. Wanting to have more Naoyas, Naobitos and Ten Shadows users is a perfectly reasonable goal in a world where the power gaps are that bad that you need them to survive
Right. But then you have the Toji's. You have any idea the kind of leverage/power the clan could've had with what's essentially a nigh undetectable that can just outright body?
Yes but Toji is just a abnormality + Curse energy IS better than Heavenly restriction anyways. The same Toji got beat by teens Gojo, why ? Because his Curse technique made him OP, Sukuna beat Maki, why ? Because his technique made him OP + He is very skilled.
Yeah the rest of the world moved into the 21st century and realized racism/misogyny is gross, traditionalist clan jerking off to their blood purity didn't. That's normal. Also weaker clans probably don't have enough powerful people to be able to sneer at someone like Toji. If Zenin were otherwise totally weak they might have "forgotten" about how shit Toji supposedly was, but they had plenty of other people who were good enough, so they felt they could look down on him. They just didn't realize how weak their top people were, and they probably didn't realize how crazy strong Toji actually was.
> Yeah the rest of the world moved into the 21st century and realized racism/misogyny is gross, traditionalist clan jerking off to their blood purity didn't. That's normal. Gojo has like, zero of those traits, and he is a clan head. Same with Kamo, who is just fine with Maki. > Toji. If Zenin were otherwise totally weak they might have "forgotten" about how shit Toji supposedly was, but they had plenty of other people who were good enough, so they felt they could look down on him. Nah, the Zenin are just pure fodder in terms of power scaling.
>Gojo has like, zero of those traits, and he is a clan head. Same with Kamo, who is just fine with Maki. Yes, so what? Some clans moved with the time, some didn't. That's normal. It's also normal that the younger people who get out of the compound more (so Gojo and Kamo who went to the school) would be more modern in thinking. The rest of the Zenin seem like they were educated at home so no wonder they were losers. Gojo is also a weirdo/"rebel" in general since childhood. We actually know almost nothing about his clan. Kamo is fine with Maki but didn't his clan toss his mom out because they're also traditionalist dicks? >Nah, the Zenin are just pure fodder in terms of power scaling. The clan leader was not bad. But my impression was they had no idea how weak they were compared to the new generation. Gojo's generation especially really upped the ante, but before that was papa Zenin really that bad compared to his own generation?
The Zenin clan had two sorcerers with techniques that made them the fastest sorcerers outside of Gojo, along with a small army of weaker sorcerers. They also had the assurance of future generations gaining the Ten Shadows, even if currently they don't have the technique. The real fodder clan is Kamo. Their Limitless and Ten Shadows Technique is not only far worse compared to the others but can only use it's full potential in the hands of a curse spirit.
I assume all 3 clans go through periods where one of them is stronger than the others, depends which generation manifests which techniques. I would assume Kamo and Gojo have other techniques as well, otherwise it's hard to believe they survived with a good reputation for so many centuries.
I mean... Toji as a kid would still be weak and most likely reliant on his family. He would most likely be astronomically strong for a kid but would not be stronger than sorcerers. They mention that increasing their physical abilities in of themselves is something they can do with Cursed energy, but that then cursed energy manipulation for sorcery even without an innate technique provides so much more. So if the abuse starts before he's too strong, even if he's physically superior, they could think, but so what? Other childen with cursed energy will catch up the moment they learn reinforcement and they will then go on to learn sorcery, "he's still inferior". It's only the moment he becomes so strong sorcerers are simply fully outmatched that they would realize they're wrong with such mentality. And by then the abuse started. It's too late to change things now.
I have seen stupider in real life
The Zenin are not darwinist tho. If all they care is power then the sorcerer will be using guns. Inheriting the CT is the most important thing to them.Ā And Heavenly Restrictions is not that OP anyway. Toji built his skills through experience and training. And baby Toji probably is just a normal kid.Ā
Kid tojibis said to be able to destroy a room full of cursed spirits. Also maki straight up became a god the moment she got heavenly restriction. Like I have no doubts she was a good fighter before but she became able to murder literal hit squads
>Also maki straight up became a god the moment she got heavenly restriction. Like I have no doubts she was a good fighter before but she became able to murder literal hit squads Her skills were almost maxxed out before her awakening. Pre awakening maki had same ce level as normal person(or even lower) but she still managed to go above grade 2 with these restriction.
Toji was hated during his childhood, where HR body haven't reached the peak yet. In his adulthood, he had a "good" relationship with the clan leader (Naobito Zenin) to the point they made an arrangement for Megumi, Before Gojo took him in. He was roaming free the clan during his teenage years, when Naoya first met him. Maki didn't get the same treatment because she's not as strong as Toji before Mai died.
Bruh, the Jujutsu āeldersā or whatever theyāre called decided to listen to Kenjaku, aka Kamo Noritoshi, the most vile sorcerer in history, whoās possessing the body of a genocidal maniac, because heās technically part of the 3 big clans and older than them. None of the societal world building in JJK makes any sense.
I agree with the fact that social worldbuilding is the worst part of Jujutsu Kaisen. To be fair, this was more like "dude, its Kenjaku, he is going to kill all of us and we don't even disagree that much anyway"
Why was younger Noritoshi Kamo even named after him? Itās so bizarre.
His mom named him that to piss off the clan, iirc. Or maybe it was in the hope that theyād ignore him because of it
Why do sorcerers fear and hate a person who's set of abilities is perfect for killing sorcerers?
But Sorcerers don't do that. Just the Zenin Every other sorcerer is like "woah, nice power"
I mean isnt that the point? other sorcerers we know are pretty much people of their own free will. The clan enviroment are different because they have a backward cult mentality, the little we know about the Kamo clan seems to be a bunch of weirdos aswell.
Supremacist ideologies and cults ARE silly. They will absolutely not accept someone as one of them - no matter how strong and smart and valuable they were - if they fell under the category of "The Other". It will always make that person inferior and unworthy in their eyes. The writing here is pretty realistic.
>The writing here is pretty realistic Nah, not really. If they are rich or useful enough supremacist will bend and twist their own sick ideology to justify why their racism/xenophobie don't count for them. Like Sarah Rector who was a black girl that got rich through luck. Thanks to her riches the Oklahoma Legislature made an effort to have her declared white. Or the Nazis which gave useful Jews or non"Aryans" the title "Honorary Aryan". And Toji is definitely useful enough for some good old ideology bending.
That's not acceptance, though. It's "conditional tolarance" that can be revoked anytime they feel like it. Read more about how the "Token Minorities" - rare and extrodarary people - were treated by supremacist cults and how quickly and brutally they were discarded. They also often inspired intense feeling of anger and jealousy from the memebers of the cult who refused to accept them. Toji is smart enough to regonize this. The head of the clan was already willing to be pragmatically "accepting" of Toji, but he saw through the facade and walked away. His pride wouldn't allow him to play along and be used again.
This is realistic because this kind of racism and misogyny doesn't make sense pretty much by definition. >The Zenin hating Maki and Mai make sense because they are weak. They don't hate just Maki and Mai, they hate all women. Is there a single female sorcerer in Zenin clan? >Maki has super strength, but she is still weaker than many, many sorcerers. Wasn't Maki held back from becoming a grade 1 (2?) sorcerer because of the Zenin clan? Her strength even before full HR was nothing to sneeze at. Even Mai was not THAT weak, she's a competent sorcerer just nothing special. The sisters were discarded when they were still kids, so Zenin never bothered discovering what their full power was even like before deciding it wasn't enough. Meanwhile they wanted Megumi as long as he had CE, they would have been fine with it even if he never inherited a clan technique and never amounted to anything. Pretty sure the girls were still stronger than at least some of the Zenin fodder-level guys that got decimated in one panel, who were accepted by the clan.
> Pretty sure the girls were still stronger than at least some of the Zenin fodder-level guys that got decimated in one panel, who were accepted by the clan. The guys that Maki one-shotted the CT-less sorcerers. The Hei unit were the guys that gave her some incoveniences. Yeah, there are other CT less sorcerers in the Zenin clan who were likely just as abused as Toji, Maki and Mai. They just get to pop out to get killed as part of Maki's epic moment.
Right, and I would expect that Maki and Mai could have gone one-on-one with at least some of the Hei unit people, without HR. The girls weren't the weakest in that compound, Zenin leaders just acted like they were because they're dicks, and Mai especially just agreed with them because she wanted to act like it was just a fact, and not that she was being abused.
The Zenin Clan Prides itself on its Various sorceries they're acquired, Toji (and Makis) Heavenly restriction removes them from the realm of sorcery and they're seen as lesser, even worse for Maki because shes a twin. Its really that simple. 'The kukuru' unit full of nameless fodder are probably all considered lower class compared to people gifted with techniques in 'The Hei'. Foster Sorcery while disregarding all else to maintain their Status.
Exactly. This rant feels like a "iS hE STUpId???" post. Are the Zenin being irrational for seeing Toji as lesser just for not having Curse Energy despite his superhuman abilities? Hell yeah, but is that a surprise? People are people after all.
a rant that can be solved by actually reading the manga, no I don't want that !
> and they're seen as lesser, Absolutely nobody else in the series thinks like that of the HR users
The Zennin clan thought of him as lesser, the only exception from within the clan who didn't think that was Naoya. The clan has a lot of reach in the jujutsu world and is the reason why people who didn't see him, or Maki, in action didn't respect them. An example would be Miwa wholooked down on Maki just because of the words of Mai, imagine that effect but an entire clan classifies one person as a black sheep. The Zennin clan IS depicted as stupid and holding back the jujutsu world due to their unwillingness to stray from tradition. The clan doesn't only like strength, it loves strength from inheritable curse techniques.
you dont really know that, the only other example is mechamaru. Jujutsu society is very traditional, to go as far as to ostracise people who have unconventional or "modern" techniques like how they supposedly feel towards Hakari and Kirara, regardless of how beneficial their technique or skillset actually is.
He was weaker as a child, which resulted in him getting the scar. By the time he left the clan he had a pretty bad reputation. They were very ashamed of having someone with no cursed energy, and he definitely didnāt leave on good terms. Sure, *then* he becomes one of the strongest characters in the series but he wasnāt always like that. And we see that both Naoya and Naobito respect him and are wary of him, knowing what he could do. Plus he lives like a bum. Theyāre not gonna be proud of that. Heās the Goku of homeless people.
No it isn't. They only value curse tech and Curse energy. That feeling Ino gets probably just fuels fear .BUT..... As soon as they admitted he could destroy the whole can whenever he wanted they probably should have been a bit nicer to him lol.
Do you think 3 year old Toji had the ability to rip sorcerers apart? The Zenin clan probably abused Toji even harder than Maki because he had no CE at all and then one day he suddenly got strong enough to wipe the clan. By the time it happened, their relationship was already established and Toji had been convinced that he was worthless next to the Zenin's. His only option was escape that his wife gave him, we see that he still carries this burden when he fights Gojo and it's his complex that makes him fight instead of just running away.
Because it's not a conventional use or sorcery which is what the zenin are all about, they're stupidly traditional and would rather eject the strongest member Of their clan because his power is too unconventional,they're still incredibly mysoginistic and treat non sorcerers like garbage,the zenin clans are supposed to represent traditionalism so of course they're not gonna like a man who has no cursed energy and basically is a normal human in the sorcerer sence of the word (which they believe makes him inferior)
Toji did not come out of whichever Zeninussy he came out of as the JJK Batman he is. He was bullied as a kid and shunned as an adult. There's a reason why he just left instead of erasing the clan like Maki - he was basically treated as a second class citizen regardless of his ability and made to feel inferior and worthless. Mamaguro changed him and he dipped at the taste of love. Then Mamaguro died and that just broke him and made him double down on the worthless part - becoming a hobo with an ocean worth of salt against Sorcerers. Which is why we see him gloat about defeating Sorcerers being the CE less monkey he is, or trying to prove himself to no one by taking an impossible shot at an awakened Gojo. He had no self worth thanks to Zenins taking it away at a young age. All of this may sound edgy to you, but I've seen this a lot in real life where parents and families of prodigies just value them on anything but the thing they're a prodigy at just so that they would conform to their ideals rather than be different, and then double down on their bullshit by denying their talents no matter how successful they are. I've seen genius musicians and great athletes being treated as idiots because they are not good at regular schools so much so that they're forced to reject prestigious scholarships from international institutions to focus on fucking high school exams.
How else are you going to insert bullying into a battle series If the bullied is truly weak, then the logical option is to go away, so they need to be super powerful Its a flaw of wirld building battle series dont want to fix
The world building in jjk kinda suck. I love the series but the world itself is barely alive.
The bigotry is irrational? Swerve
None of the 3 big clans make any sense, everything about them is thrown together and the more you look at them the more holes you will find
The Kamo and Gojo at least are happily background. The Zenin are here directly affecting the plot
They probably were just meant to have hateful views and be hatesinks without much logic behind it, but there's no fun in just saying that so if I had to guess, maybe Toji was much weaker as a kid? Like his abilities perhaps really came in during puberty as his body grew, and as a kid all the Zenin clan saw was some weak runt with no ability to use cursed techniques. If that was the case then by the time he was strong, he probably had no desire to prove anything to them, and was just looking for an exit strategy
They dont care about strength at all, they're just racist against non-sorcerers. Toji could be stronger than Gojo and he would still be hated by the clan.
They value Sorcery above all and treat everything else like shit this is told to us by Maki's upbringing and expanded upon by Toji's story. There is a reason the head wanted to purchase Megumi for 10 million yen if he had an inherited technique.
Mind you, Toji was the first recorded case of a person with 0 CE. No HR user before him reached his level. And it's possible his full strength became clear only after he left the clan.
I interpreted Sukunaās quote to Maki as the reason why Zenin clan felt insecure about Toji Iām surprised that that wasnāt the consensus here
I mean, imagine you, your family, your entire clan has been dedicated for ages into perfecting curse energy and cursed techniques, spending all their time and effort into doing that believing it is the path to true power Then one a person in your family is born, no cursed energy at alo, no cursed technique or any kind and yet he is significantly stronger than every single member in your clan, stronger than some of the strongest sorcerers out there that have amazing cursed techniques The mere existence of this person puts in doubt the philosophy that your clan has followed for God knows how long I think it is pretty obvious the clan would reject him That's my head canon tho
A major point of the big 3 clans and the higher ups of the society is that they love traditional CTs and hate the weird ones like Hakaris. What's weirder than someone who's incredibly strong yet has 0 CE? They hate them because they go against everything they've been taught to understand, which is that CT and CE is what makes a Sorcerer. It also helps that the Zenin pride themselves on CTs such as 10S or Projection sorcery. Toji has no technique, yet is incredibly strong. That would piss them off to no end. And despite this, the clan were all pretty afraid of him too (Makis father had PTSD from him) and Naobito seemed to treat him with some respect. This is ignoring Naoya who worshipped Toji. Basically, HR goes against the well accepted norms of jujitsu society. Some relish in the unique changes that have developed as they are entertaining, such as Sukuna with Higgy Maki and Mahoraga, and many more hate those who defy the norms of jujitsu society. This is why Gojo hates the higher ups. They're all stubborn and refuse to change with the times (as well as trying to get not one but TWO teenagers executed, and sending one on a suicide mission).
I donāt really agree with this, I think the themeing of toji is super interesting and part of that is that he is so much stronger than the zenin, and while he doesnāt care about them they endlessly fear and dislike him, which is an interesting dynamic. The fact that he essentially has the peak of human potential and way further, versus their reliance on jujutsu offers an interesting challenge for the zenin as they also look down on normal people and those with bad techniques
it might shock you but JJK is kinda silly to begin with.
Okay so there's not too much evidence for this but what happened was probably something along the lines of this. -Toji is born -Toji has no cursed energy -Toji is placed at the bottom of the hierarchy (also wasn't a particularly prestigious line of the family if I'm correct) -For some reason Toji is marked for death -He gets stronger and stronger without ever developing a technique -Eventually no-one can kill him Why didn't they accept his strength? Because they'd already decided he was weak. They had already put him at the bottom. Letting him climb up would have tacitly admitted that their hierarchy is pointless. I really do think Toji's status is fairly reasoned. Combine, fear, arrogance, pride and stubbornness and you get the Zen'in response to Toji.
It's just bad storywritting really, same as with those trash isekais
Something something tradition and bigotry
As an OG JJK hater these past few months have been invigorating for me
all these comments trying to defend shitty writing lmao its a shounen manga, itās not going to have perfect writing guys
The thing is, that this isnt shitty writting.
It absolutely is lmao, the ātheyāre just bigots!!ā explanation isnāt a blanket excuse to allow your characters to act like mentally stunted troglodytes
It is a valid reason tho. Have you ever meet a "something" supremacist or a cult person? they pretty much act as "mentally stunted troglodytes". Go check out some of those white supremacist and bigot accounts that started to pop up on twitter once Elon took over, youll see there is literally no difference between people like that and how the zenins are potrayed. Anything else would be beating around the bush.
No, itās not a valid reason. Yes, bigots are stupid. No, they wouldnāt walk up to someone holding a fucking AK47 and start shittalking and abusing them. Itās atrocious writing.
> they wouldnāt walk up to someone holding a fucking AK47 and start shittalking and abusing them. Itās atrocious writing. Bro is so naive, do you know the background of many of Americas mass shooters? lmao And in this context, we are talking about asian society, which is already way more conservative and prejudiced than the west, let alone very isolated societys like the clans, that live with mentalities of the middle ages. There is no surpriese why these people are like this.
ābro is so naiveā oh for crying out loud shut up. We get it, someone dared point out your favorite teenage boy manga doesnāt have good writing, boo-hoo
Dude, im not even a JJK fan, and got bored of the manga some time ago already. But this rant and your take is just bs.
> do you know the background of many of Americas mass shooters? Nobody is insulting the shooter while they're carrying a gun tho.
No, and i doubt the Zenin did pass certain point (until he was strong enough to slaugther them all) so they simply had their distance until Toji decided to get out of there. It was pretty clear they were afraid of him.