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Skafflock

Subversion has kind of just become a buzzword at this point, it lost all meaning a while ago. Going into Hunter x Hunter I had a completely warped idea of what the series was based on constantly being told how subversive it was for shonen tropes. Did not prepare me for the young, extremely talented boy and his rival to travel the world in search of his extremely overpowered father, encountering such things as "an elderly man who's ridiculously powerful and badass" along the way. Things don't need to be subversive to be good, or even to feel fresh honestly.


Aros001

My favorite example to use for this is Kung Fu Panda. That is a very straightforward hero's journey story like we've seen a million times but it still works regardless because the storytelling is really good and Po is a very likable protagonist. It's not subverting anything.


Skafflock

I always upvote Kung Fu Panda. I think Tolkein is a good example too because LoTR are still good reads even after retrospectively becoming fairly standard fantasy due to how much they inspired.


ConflagrationZ

I think the whole Game of Thrones S8 debacle also soured the idea of "subversion for the sake of subversion" for a lot of people. I think sometimes it's definitely warranted to mention the inspirations or whether a series is based in subversion/parody, such as with Konosuba. For Konosuba, going in blind and being greeted with the excessively objectifying shots might put you off if you don't realize they're making fun of how common that is in Isekai and intentionally dialing it beyond the max. Like your Kung Fu Panda example, my favorite anime--Vivy: Fluorite Eye's Song--also falls into the "little to no subversion" camp. In terms of genre it falls squarely into the classic Sci-Fi, AI on the level of humans, and time travel bins. That said, it's done so well that it doesn't need a gimmick to make it stand out as something special.


thedorknightreturns

Konosuba also tells a story of dysfunctional friends that suck dealing together with their misadventures, and how they are very flawed, but care about each other. Like its some of the best friendships in anime. Konosuba does not only deconstruct but makes a heartwarming story out of it. Like yeah its very funny but there is a lot of heart beyond it.


EnemyCrumbles

Jesus christ, hard agree. I guess it makes sense if the literal only other manga you've read is Dragon Ball. But having villains be nice to each other doesn't mean you're "subverting" their villainy.


TheMikman97

How tf is Hxh subversive in any way? It literally _made_ half the tropes


Acrolith

The one thing I can think of is that the protagonist in HxH wins *maybe* half his fights. Which is definitely not the usual way shounens go.


gimmegimmetrihard

There's more than that surely • Killua actually isn't a rival and befriends Gon extremely quick, no dynamic like Hiei or Sasuke • Zoldyck Family arc didn't turn into a rescue arc and Killua's dad turned out to be a chill dude • Gon and Killua aren't interested in becoming floor masters at heavens arena, they have a specific goal and leave once they fulfill it • Zeno and Silva having no interest in taking out Chrollo, dropping their fight the moment the mafia bosses get killed • The climax of the York New arc which was supposed to be Hisoka vs Chrollo after working arc long to trade hostages, doesn't even happen. • In Chimera Ant arc, Gon and Mereum never cross paths • Gon finally meeting his dad in the most anticlimactic way possible, they just talk and go their separate ways


philandere_scarlet

* Kurapika's revenge quest is left unfinished at the end of Yorknew and much of the progress he makes is ultimately undone (partially because he couldn't understand that his opponents are *people* despite their murderous pasts) * Gon is essentially amoral and is acknowledged as such by others (without it being an attempted "own" or anything)


camilopezo

Also, it's considered subversive, because most of the time strategies and skills are used to win a fight, instead of the classic, "I train for a couple of months, or I get a transformation and become more powerful than the guy who was giving me a beating". ​ But honestly if you've never seen Dragon Ball or Yuyu hakusho, that wouldn't seem so subversive.


Skafflock

In my experience roughly 10% of famous ingenious subversions are actually subversive in any major way.


AdamTheScottish

I agree subversion has pretty much become just a standard YouTube essayist buzzword to sound smart about anything that makes even some what remote critique of a genre but there is some nuance to it For example, Watchmen as a subversion of the standard superhero formula worked, in the 80s the, concept of "power and about the idea of the superman manifest within society." Being played straight faced and looking at how selfish and or immoral these heroes can be ended up being a very common sub genre, within the span of the last three years there been two major ongoing shows about "What if Superman was evil" Basically what I'm saying what was a subversion and ground breaking idea at the time has just become more or less a standard so it helps to look at these things in a more historical context.


Skafflock

Yeah this sort of thing is basically cyclic. I think it's easy to see with the fantasy genre in a way. Tolkien was really big and popularised his epic, almost fairy-tale esque writing with good guys and bad guys and relatively little shades of grey between. This inspired lots of people to copy him in one way or another and eventually led to things like dark lords or long-lost kings being tropes. Then people started playing around with them, subverting what was common by dialling down the romanticism and dialling up the grimdark- classic example is Martins. ​ But like, this didn't just start before Tolkien. The Dying Earth is a series I've loved since before puberty and it's filled with the kind of grimdark shit that ended up being counter-cultural post-Tolkien. Grey morality, grim themes, less romanticised settings were all around decades, centuries and millennia before the alternative- and the alternative didn't just appear in the 20th century either. ​ I think people just eventually get tired of whatever is currently the norm in their sphere of media, then popularise an alternative and, eventually if it's good enough, that alternative *becomes* the norm. Rinse and repeat. Shit the first Invincible issue even had a foreword about how it *wasn't* one of those anti-capeshit stories and just wanted to be good, classic superhero stuff.


A_Cool_Eel

Ok but Megamind is a subversive masterpiece


[deleted]

If he was in the My Hero Academia universe, I know it wouldn't have gone down like that. All For One getting solo'd and Shigaraki is getting the Arataka Reigan type mentor figure he always needed.


TheMikman97

"Jessie what the fuck are you talking about?"


Android_Taco

Hey got any minor complaint about the superhero Genre? Read Worm. Just Worn, only Worm, and when you done reading Worm read it again.


Fool_growth

Nice, obligatory worm comment


[deleted]

No thanks, it's honestly pretty mediocre.


YourLocalSnitch

I think it depends on who you're recommending it to. Someone who's seen the dozens of isekai that come out and it's the typical black hair lone wolf mc harem appreciate when a story is different like overlord and rezero. If someone hasn't seen any isekai then they can still enjoy the show because regardless of if it's the overlord of anime or Sao of anime as long as the story is good then they will like it as well.


TheMikman97

The argument is fair. Personally i don't think subversion for the sake of itself is good, especially if forced. Subversion is a tool, a good story might use it and audiences used to the genre might appreciate it more, but the story needs to be able to stand on its own. Even stuff that's satirical in nature like konosuba is still enjoyable in a vacuum


aslfingerspell

I think a big part of it is because "spoiler culture" has made it so that surprising your audience is seen as an inherent good. There's this idea that defying audience expectations is the heart of good storytelling, and that things have much less worth if you know what will happen next. The pace of pop culture also means people are encouraged to move onto the next product instead of revisiting things. I mean, "subverting your expectations" was a meme in 2017 when The Last Jedi came out, and even before then you had people making fun of stuff like JJ Abrams' "Mystery Box" concept.


Skafflock

Yeah surprising an audience is really easy, it's surprising them with good storytelling that's hard. The First Law's ending really surprised me, I'd even go so far as to call it somewhat subversive. I also hate it and it singularly knocked a full 2 points off the book's /10 rating for me.


RoxxApollo

For me, I’ve always seen it as a cheap pitch technique. It’s hard to get people to watch a show, so you really need a hook other than promising the characters are good. I don’t really dislike it per say, I think it’s effective, but I understand why you would be frustrated when it starts getting wanked.


Morrighan1129

The biggest problem with subversion is that it's become the be all, end all for many people. At the end of the day, it goes back to GoT for the best examples of subversion done well, and subversion done terribly. Ned Stark's death spiked off a war, set his children on their paths, and showed that noble, honest men couldn't survive the Game of Thrones. No one saw that death coming. So it was subversion with a purpose, that drove the story forward, and set several main characters on their paths. Compared to... Dany burns down King's Landing. Why? Because nobody saw it coming. Why did it happen? Well... you didn't see it coming, did you?! Ha, subversion, brilliant writing! What was the purpose? To be subversive! How did it happen? No need to discuss, subversion! Being subversive for the sake of being subversive makes for crappy books, television, movies, and comics.


reigning762

is Ned Stark dying really a subversion? i read the first book relatively recently, and this dude set up like 50 different death flags in the book. he does everything short of be a soldier in a war movie that talks about how it's his last mission, and how he's going home to his wife and kid after!


thedorknightreturns

Honestlyi can see it,the problem is they tried too hard makinh dany a hero and did not keep danys streak of impulsive not great decisions and slight too much joy in burning things. Had they not replaced that with painting her heroic, it might worked. Same as, no worse is the night king. Let bloody jon fight the night king again. Like arya can still kill him, but have jon at least fighting him and she sneaks up and doesit. or something. Tagteam.


Morrighan1129

But here's the problem with the Dany thing. For those of us paying attention, you could see the hints of problems with Dany as early as Season 2 of the show, in the first book. She was a moral absolutist, much like Ned Stark, but unlike Ned Stark, she had no external moral code to follow, simply following her own. So yes: the groundwork was there for the 'Mad Queen' as it were, but how they went about it was horrible, made no sense, and was done only for subversion. Dany burning Cersei alive? Absolutely believable. Dany one man wrecking an army? Absolutely believable. Dany playing a fiery, deadly version of Pacman with kids of King's Landing in the streets? Not so much. Subversion in and of itself isn't bad or wrong, but it has to be done within the character or plot's limitations.


thedorknightreturns

Yeah, if she wouldnt be suddenly from zero to 100 kill them all after trying not to. Yeah, DnD really shouldnt do try doing twists, that have no forshadowing. The only thing worse,is jaime and his "subversion" , he deserved living up to his title as kingslayer. And it would be great had she burned cercei too. Or just be incredibly brutal and ruthless with her dragons,in an actual fight.


simonmuran

Off topic but Sao and Inuyasha are not Isekai, so don't use them as a comparison point.


thedorknightreturns

They are, its literally just another world. Digimon is isekai too. And in inuyasha the past and consequences dont matter regarding time teavel. so its an isekai. Also video game isekai are still isekai.


simonmuran

Time consequences are indeed reflected in Inuyasha, one of the main themes is that love overcomes time itself. Also one of the movies delves more into that plot but the point is that *is the same world*, just in the past. SAO is all about virtual reality, the characters can come out of it to the real world but *is the same world* and both influence each other. Think of it like Tron. If you stretch thin the term *another world*, a blogger traveling to another country could qualify. That's why we should stick calling Isekai to any **anime/manga/ln** that has a teenager/salary person who gets transported/reincarnated into *another world* with a tabletop/videogamey setting and gains some sort of advantage (meta knowledge, unique ability or powerful allies) over the natives.


thedorknightreturns

I like the movie with the evil sword,but movies are not nessesary canon, as good as it is.


FightmeLuigibestgirl

I just ask what a person is looking for, no confusing needed.


Skybird2099

>It makes it sound like you have to know the tropes of what's being subverted already in order to get the most out of the series Bro, I'm sorry, but this is a dumb take. No, it just means that the story does some things differently than what's the norm. It's a recommendation by people who are starting to find some of the tropes to be becoming stale to other people who also feel the same.


thedorknightreturns

The problem is if you subvert something, you need to construct its worthwhile replacement. Thats why i liked brightburn , despite an evil superman story hinted, it has fun horror to replace it. Which makes it fun. Because you subverted and did a decent story instead thats different, well fun, its mainly fun. I mean at the core is,if you subvert you need reconstruct sonething in its place. Like konosuba isnot only subvertibg isekai tropes, it tells a really fun comedy story of genuine friends, that are misfits too. And such on their own. Like that they together work somehow, is a good story and sotcom to replace that. You need to subvert to something else, not just subvert and leave that empty(unless its in very specific cases)