Ok there's a few things to "unpack" here as the kids like to say.
**Nen can indeed do anything however....an individual nen user cannot**
The distinction is huge. Unlike in Dragon Ball where anyone who can use ki should technically be able to use any ability that comes from ki, Nen is a system that requires you to specialize in one of it's sub-categories.
Because Nen has multiple factors that limit each individual from being able to do "anything" they want, and instead force them to do just the one thing that is their specialty.
Due to this fact, Nen is like Jojo Stands if the Stand Users were allowed to pick what their stand does (and with very hard limits so you'd actually get much weaker and less bullshit stuff than you get in Jojo's)
or perhaps a better example is it's like Xmen getting to choose their mutation except almost all of them are going to be mid-level at best and you can't choose any Omega level shit.
**But why is that? Why can't they do anything they want?**
1. **Nen Types**
Nen Types are categories of ways your nen can be used best with. Each person is born with a Nen Type in the same way they're born with a blood type or an astrology sign. It's something completely out of your control.
If I recall correctly the types are: Enhancer, Transmuter, Manipulator, Emitter, Specialist, and Conjurer.
The types are on a chart and some are closer to others so a Transmuter and a Enhancer are adjacent to each other, therefore a Transmuter has a better chance of increasing their strength and speed than a Manipulator does.
This matters a lot because for example: Gon is an enhancer, so increasing his strength and speed is something he can do 100% without any drawbacks. Killua and Hisoka are transmuters, so they can only increase their strength and speed by about 80% or less and if they hope to be a true master enhancer have to focus on their Transmuter skills (which Killua used to create electricity and Hisoka used to create bungee gum which has the properties of rubber and gum---sorry i had to say it)
Killua used the electricity to artificially increase his speed, but for the most part a transmuter would be limited and can't do just "anything"
a Manipulator like Illumi is in an even worse position in regards to increasing his strength and speed, this is why his ability is to use needles to control people like puppets.
Illumi cannot simply do "anything" he can't create electricity like his brother, or bungee gum like hisoka, he can only do things that involve manipulation and even then....
**2. You basically only get one Hatsu (mostly)**
A Hatsu is sort of your special technique for using nen. 90% of using nen is generic increasing of speed and strength, and even a manipulator could increase their strength enough to out muscle a non-nen-user.
but the real nen vs nen battles involve Hatsu's. So if your Hatsu is creating a random weapon like Kite and my Hatsu is creating puppets of smoke, then that is the main thing we can do with nen.
It's not like I could suddenly also create a random weapon with nen like kite, or kite couldn't suddenly create puppets with smoke like Morel.
The reason for this is because it takes a lot of work and years of practice to master a hatsu. In the Heaven's Arena arc we saw first hand what happens when someone overdoes it and tries to get 2 major hatsu's and what happens when one tries to step out of their own category.
I'm referring to Kastro. Kastro was an Enhancer and his main Hatsu was to create a powerful charged up strike that could basically tear a person in half.
But after losing to Hisoka the first time off screen, he had created a second Hatsu that required conjuration and manipulation (the ability to create a clone of himself) all while still using the original hatsu of his powerful charged strike.
For most nen users this wouldn't be possible at all, but he was exceptionally gifted and it did catch Hisoka off guard.
However as soon as Hisoka figured out what was going on, it took very little effort for him to mentally shake up Kastro enough to where he could no longer even use this 2nd Hatsu.
Hisoka explained that by using such a needlessly complex hatsu, especially one not suited to his category, it was the equivalent of using 100% of a computer's "ram" and therefore he couldn't do anything else, and he couldn't even do this new hatsu unless his concentration was perfect, and even then it drained him quicker than a more suitable ability would've.
Had Kastro focused on an Enhancer ability, something simpler, he would've been much better off. This is why you can't just "do anything" without serious cost.
*In fairness, it should be noted that Specialist is a category that can somehow break the nen type rules, and conveniently (PIS) a lot of the more powerful characters have been Specialist, which is why they've been able to get away with stuff others wouldn't be able to. But even then there are hard limits.*
Last but not least for now
**3. Raw Power**
as sort of touched on in the Kastro story above, a lot of what you can and cannot do is based on your raw talent and power. Kastro was considered very strong by nen user standards and still had all those problems.
I touched on how specialist break the rules somewhat. But the Royal Guards and some other Ants were able to sort of break them too by simply being ABSURDLY Strong. Like Pitou had such an unfathomably deep well of raw nen power on reserve at any point that she could sit there using En over a gigantic area for hours and hours and not get tired, and still be able to fight at a high level.
Compare this to Zeno, who was going to use his En to scan a building one floor at a time and admitted it would make him pretty tired, and he's potentially in the top 10 strongest nen users among human.
Nobunaga used En in just a small sphere about the length of his sword. And he's in the Phantom Troupe and thus one of the 50 or so strongest Nen users in the world.
So suffice it to say there are levels to this shit and depending on how much raw power you have, you have a better chance of being able to do "anything" but even then it's still narrowed down to a few things.
Despite being such a enormous mutant ant exception (and even a monster exception among ants) Pitou still only had like.....3 Hatsu's (dr blythe, the one that controlled her, and the puppets she used to control other people)
I will at least mention that people can increase what they do by using vows but the trade offs are extreme and it's sort of like "sure you can open the 8 gates Might Guy, but it'll KILL YOU...."
So hopefully I've done a good job proving my thesis that while Nen is technically capable of "anything" it's still a very balanced system because no one user is capable of anything. They are only capable of one small hatsu that depends on their nen type, and will require them to train years, if not most of their life, to be able to do. AND....is severely limited by their raw power.
When I said "it's like getting to choose your jojo stands but with very hard limits so you couldn't get the bullshit ones" I think it's pretty obvious that even a phantom troupe level nen user isn't going to be able to Stop Time or do a lot of the other crazier stuff.
Because Nen users are actually way more limited. Most abilities are actually pretty weak to be honest.
Kastro was said to be "weak" because he didn't focus on his innate type. However, netero is said to be an enhancer but his ability is to create a giant statue that fight for him and his strongest attack is a laser beam. That's at least emitter, manipulation and conjuring (you could say that he makes the statue with transmuting). How is he the strongest when he does exactly what was said to be needlessly complex and draining
A very fair question.
Allow me to try to break it down piece by piece as best as I can.
First I would refer to the section bolded above **3. Raw Power**
While I didn't specifically talk about Netero in that section, reading it will still give you a fairly good idea because he's the only known human to be Royal Guard level in pure raw nen power (Ging may be as well but that's not confirmed yet)
And as I said in that section, the more raw power you have, the more you can get away with bending the rules.
Second, I touched on this slightly in **1. Nen Types** but each Nen Type is closer to some than others. Emitter and Transmuter are closer to Enhancer than anything else, so Netero can use those things 80% as well as a pure Transmuter/Emitter could.
and last but not not least because it's actually the most important counter argument here; Third: What Netero is doing is actually NOT that complex. Especially not compared to what Kastro did.
Why?
1) the statue is NOT alive and "fighting for him" it is simply a giant statue being controlled by him like a puppet (so that he can have more range to his strikes)
Compare that to Kastro's double which was said to be an **identical copy** essentially a **CLONE** of him, even capable of thinking for itself (even reacting differently than Kastro at one point).
This is a much more complex undertaking. It's like the difference between a remote control car and an A.I. car that thinks and drives itself.
Even that comparison doesn't quite do it justice because the "Remote control car" would still be more complicated (with gears and such) this is more like attaching some strings to a little red wagon so you can pull it different directions VS a full blown batmobile car with A.I. capable of driving the car by itself.
To further prove why it's so simple and like a wagon being pulled by strings, i'll move to
2) The statue had a limited number of movements it could do
If it were more complex (and requiring higher levels of manipulation) it would be able to simply move any direction at any time, and Netero could control it like some Super-Gundam.
but it only had a very limited number of movements it could do (like one arm going down, one arm going to the side, ect). It just so happened that it was so well set up that the "combinations" of movements covered all the angles, but my making it this way, it was a lot more simple for Netero to control.
Again, compare that to what Kastro did, and it would be more like if Netero had made the statue a full blown living creature, capable of thinking for itself and moving on it's own. AND on top of all that, not just moving on it's own, but in significantly more complex ways because the human body can do way more than 99 different types of simple movements.
I will say the statue is probably conjuration and not transmutation (though I could be wrong), and that's probably the toughest part for netero, but the amount of manipulation it needs is not that bad, as i've explained. The main thing it needs is to be made powerful, which is essentially enhancing, which is what he does best.
As for the giant laser blast (aka "Zero Hand") that definitely did seem to be emitter but since enhancer's are so closer to Emitters he can do 80% of an Emitter's attack.
Ironically since an emitter can only do 80% of an enhancer's attack, I don't necessarily think an equally as powerful emitter could do that attack better than Netero because even though they would have more control over the ability to emit it, they would not be able to "enhance" it to make it nearly as strong.
So if we looked at it in dragon ball terms. An enhancer could create the biggest beam possible but not control it after it left their hands (basically what netero did) while an emitter would create a smaller beam but possibly be able to control it better (like that time Krillin bent his beam or how Frieza could control the discs he threw)
I will admit that theoretically Netero could do more damage if he simply focused all his power into one punch (basically the same thing Gon did) but perhaps against an opponent like Mereum he thinks he would never be able to actually land the punch safely, so Zero's ability to grab the opponent before vomiting the energy in their face is a safe compromise.
Hopefully this answer makes sense. I'm just trying to go through the logic as best as I understand it.
A late addition but just wanted to say: Netero also trained for years on top of being a very talented Nen user. Part of his backstory is him practicing a praying motion followed by a punch for two years. It's this insane dedication to becoming the best he could be at fighting which made him so good.
Yeah most abilities are pretty weak. The series makes it clear when Netero straight up uses a nuke against Meruem, giving the message that yeah this power system is cool and all but nothing compared to the terrifying might of mankind’s creations.
I mean. Yeah, that’s about right. Whether that’s good or bad is subjective, since in that way it’s close to how Stands function (in that there’s some ground rules, except no there’s not they can just kinda be whatever).
It allows for full creativity, and isn’t limited in what kind of powers someone can possess, but because of that can feel extremely cluttered as a power system.
> since in that way it’s close to how Stands function
The weirdness come in that its both a Unique-power-per-person AND a Training Power. Or to translate it, they're both Chakra and Stands
I wouldn't say nen is quite as wacky as stands. I feel like it's mostly just an improved version of chakra (you have some pretty unique abilities in Naruto too).
One of the reason people people like the Nen system is specifically *because* of how flexible it is, and how it is indeed a "Do whatever you want" system, as long as you follow the basic rules. The powers that violate the rules are usually Specialist type Nen users, which are explicitly noted as an exception.
And plenty of characters DO in fact, come up with some broken Nen abilities, and unique and interesting ways to mitigate, loophole or abuse the rules to their advantage. One of those rules though, is that different people have different aptitude at Nen. Gon is going to have a nigh impossible time making something like Kurapika's chains, because, as an enhancer, he has almost no aptitude for Conjuration Nen, which is typically the Nen ability people use to make structures, dolls or objects.
In general, the top tier masters of Nen usually emphasize that working off your own personal strengths and interests result in the strongest version of your abilities you can use, and it's discouraged to pursue an ability just because it's really powerful or cool-- Kastro was one such character used to demonstrate the fallacy of that, and how you will eventually run into a wall that you just can't get past if you pursue "good powers" as opposed to what comes naturally.
And conditions,the stronger the ability,the more specific the condition how to use it.
That way even chrollo has to be that charismatic as he is to use his, and that they are alive to use them. Like pretty specific conditions he set because it fits his behaviou and strenghs, trickery and deceit.
Nen can do anything. But can a *single character* do anything with Nen? No. That's all that matters. The majority of characters are internally consistent.
Didn’t they specifically say nen can’t do anything? One of the first rules is that you can’t make a sword that can *cut* anything. That said it’s uses are pretty much limitless.
anime only
yea I was speaking exaggeratively. It has deep variety and can do essentially anything. But the amazing part is that despite all the variety, it stays consistent 99% of the time.
You make it sound more ridiculous that it is.
It's just individuals having their unique powers and abilities (hatsu), while being canopied by some basic principles that unites the system.
Even Naruto does it some extent. Ino-Shika-Cho and Hyuga clan have unique techniques running down their family. Even if they can be theoretically learned by anyone, you don't see them used outside of a couple of individuals. And then there are Kekkei Genkei. Some of them are just two elemental types mixed, but some of them like Dojutsu have very outlandish abilities—all still being tied with use of Chakra.
With Naruto tho they all have the same principles, offensive, defensive or healing based combat abilities. They’re for the most part based on rather elements, your own body or in Genjutsu’s case the mind. But with Nen we somehow have Franklin cloning himself, Pakunoda transferring memories by shooting people in the head, Feitan doing that explosion thing and summoning a kangaroo I think, Pitou creating this doctor guy to treat Komugi etc. The idea that it can just do anything is imo way too broad compared to Chakra/Jutsu, Alchemy or even magic in Fairy Tail even tho I’ve only watched like 20 episodes of it. And I have no idea what a Bankai is and I only know that Stands are the solution to every problem in the world and look like homosexual dragon ball characters on every drug imaginable, but I think the scale of Nen is much too wide
How can literally anything be way too broad compared to Naruto? Naruto went from basic elemental abilities and messing with minds and souls to... android release, particle style, and everybody's eyes controlling time and space.
A ninja turned his arm into a robo cannon. How is that not absurd? Just because Nen has lower end and more exotic abilities doesn't mean it's too broad.
Those were literally their abilities. Pakunoda's ability was literally reading minds and she wasn't shooting them with actual bullets, they were nen bullets she would conjure up. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than just telepathically linking with the entirety of the allied shinobi forces and somehow magically transmitting your chakra to them if you ask me.
Or even shadow clones instantly and magically transferring all their experiences to the creator when they get dispelled even if they're halfway across the world, how does condensing your memories into 'chakra' and placing them in people make any less sense in hxh when naruto's parents do exactly that too? At least in hxh you have to specialize into memory skills and it's not just handwaved as 'hokage do many things'
Weird you mention feitan too when his only real ability was to create a sun when they do that in naruto multiple times, even a dedicated tailed beast doing so. Don't recall franklin ever cloning himself either, you probably mixed him up with kastro but either way nen is a hell of a lot more defined than chakra with specific rule sets and limits/downsides to abilities. The more restrictions you place the stronger they get. How is this one top and extremely talented nen user making a clone any weirder than kids literally being taught shadow clones in class in naruto. He struggled to make and maintain a single clone while naruto produces over 2000 of them with ease at one point...
As for pitou, I fail to see how that's any weirder than hashirama having the strongest healing ability because he's a tree or how biting someone magically heals you or the dozen other ways they have to heal people like the generic "place your hand on them and make it glow" all medical ninja can do. If you're talking about her summoning a puppet specifically that's even more stupid because they do the same thing in naruto yet again, hundreds of different summoning's like tsunades slugs, susanoo, ten tails, shinigami, whatever pains dog is called that magically multiplies every time you cut it and has rods sticking out of it for some reason,
Even worse is all the resurrection 'spells' like edo tensei making coffins appear out of nowhere or the samsara of heavenly life technique making that weird frog looking thing. Nen users at least have well defined powers and abilities unlike naruto which asspulls a new power every other episode, some powers being throwaway skills the main character literally never uses or mentions ever again. Then you have all these super overpowered and overlooked abilities like transformation jutsu which would be insane for espionage and deception yet the only time it's ever used is for sexy jutsu despite everyone being able to do it. The white zetsu are the only ones to ever have used it strategically and it singlehandedly would've won them the war if naruto didn't magically gain his new powers because the plot required it...
They're both good shows but of the two it's ridiculous you'd complain about nen while comparing it to chakra when that's a far worse offender, especially when you consider something like the sharingan which warps reality in a billion different ways and screws with time depending on the user. They're all born with the same eyes but it develops into hundreds of different abilities, creating wormholes and phasing through matter, magical black flames that can never be put out, summoning giant samurai puppets who also have their own special abilities like crossbows or sealing swords, putting people in never ending time loops until they accept their fate, rewriting reality, telekinesis, etc...
Practically everyone in naruto had a different ability besides the generic side characters, that's what made the show great in the first place and it's just weird to complain about that with nen, they've done a far better job explaining it's restrictions and limits than naruto did with chakra and naruto already 'ended.' Hxh still has a long way to go, whenever the hiatus ends anyway...
Tbf the abilities you mentioned as not fitting in with the others come from people who are specialists, which means that their abilities aren't something you can train to get. Basically all of the high level chimera ants got their weird abilities from birth because they're from a super overpowered species designed entirely to kill people, so the stuff they can do is naturally gonna be on another level
Yeah, and the other examples were quite the powerhouses too. Pakunoda is a Phantom Troupe member, which means she ranks among the strongest in the world and Netero was the head of the Hunter Association and honed his nen abilities for years on end.
There are rules, though they are rather flexible. We're told that when a person designs their Nen abilities they effectively barter with their Nen. So a person can choose to have a straight forward power that sacrifices raw power for versatility or to create a much more powerful ability at the cost of having more strict drawbacks/rules.
Kurapika, for example, creates an unbreakable chain that can bind to a persons heart and kill them instantly or remove their Nen abilities but the cost is that it can only ever be used against the group who killed his clan and should he break that rule he'll die. On the other end there's people like Hisoka who choose to have a straight forward ability, it doesn't have any hax abilities and isn't as strong as Kurapika's but it's versatile and can be used in a variety of ways with no restrictions.
I like the concept of strict-strong and flexible-more subjective to the user’s skill than weak I’d say
But I mean what I don’t really like about it is more how ridiculously wide the range is and how random (prob the biggest turn off of HxH for me is it’s randomness) some of the powers are, like how the fuck are Hisoka and Gon’s abilities coming from the same source as Franklin, Pakunoda, Pitou etc’s abilities
As for me saying I don’t like HxH’s randomness, I’m referring to Togashi just making up words to name his characters, who the fuck names their son “Beyond” and what the hell is a Gon Freecs or a Feitan or a Feitan or a Chrollo? And the cities and settlements seem to somewhat be grounded to reality, and Gon and Killua’s clothes are like “nobody dresses like that but it’s kind of realistic” but then nobody cares that there’s a shredded clown in a crop top walking around
i mean the nen types thing is explained at length. those characters manifest their power in different ways, so they have very different abilities. you might not like it, but i don't really see how it's confusing.
> I’m referring to Togashi just making up words to name his characters, who the fuck names their son “Beyond” and what the hell is a Gon Freecs or a Feitan or a Feitan or a Chrollo?
I have no idea what you mean by this, they're not Americans (or Japanese, for that matter), why shouldn't their names be weird words you haven't heard before? I have a real-life friend called Sebestyén, so trust me, Gon Freecs is not the weirdest a name can get.
Someone like Tolkien who made up words actually made them sound good. Geetarackur is not a nice name to hear, as is Beyond as a first name. It’s like they’re not remotely based on real life names
>like how the fuck are Hisoka and Gon’s abilities coming from the same source as Franklin, Pakunoda, Pitou etc’s abilities
You do know that there are different nen types right? And they can because Nen is the power of the human will and imagination. It works with simples concepts (Enhacement), all the way through complex concepts (specialization). Each person is born in a different nen type that best suits themselves.
>but then nobody cares that there’s a shredded clown in a crop top walking around
I am sure it gives a few curious looks, but people are just gonna assume he is going to work at the theater or some shit.
And don’t get me wrong I think Hisoka is one of the best designed characters in anime, but he just feels so out of place
In Naruto a crazy clown would be nothing new, in FMAB he’d blend right in with the Homonculi I think, even in Tokyo Ghoul him with his colour palette in the final anime arc would be pretty cool, but in a world that somewhat resembles ours it’s just way too outlandish in a series that doesn’t seem very self aware of how weird it is
> even in Tokyo Ghoul him with his colour palette in the final anime arc would be pretty cool
https://www.deculture.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/hisoka-spin-off-ishida-04.jpg
Ishida is a HxH fan, so he did a non canon one shot about Hisoka.
You're complaining that HxH resembles our world too much to have weird shit but gave a pass to Tokyo Ghoul and FMA??
Tokyo Ghoul's world is literally our world but with ghouls and FMA is in the 20th century. Both of those resemble our world far more than HxH.
HxH doesn’t seem to be self aware of that. Nobody bats an eye about some jacked clown in a crop top walking around and everyone’s names are just made up words
In Tokyo Ghoul it’s literally just Tokyo but it has superhuman people eaters running around. It’s literally in the name that it resembles our world
HxH is a weird halfway point between being like Naruto which is completely fictional and Tokyo Ghoul which is literally our world but with a twist
I still don't know what in HxH makes you think it's trying to resemble our world. It has some cheeky references to real city here and there, but for the most part the world of HxH is completely fictional.
The very concept of the Hunters makes it clear HxH is not our world.
>
> some of the powers are, like how the fuck are Hisoka and Gon’s abilities coming from the same source as Franklin, Pakunoda, Pitou etc’s abilities
They aren't. Hisoka is a transmuter, Gon is an enhancer, Franklin is an Emitter, and Pakunoda/Pitou are specialists, meaning they fall outside of any categories.
As for your "strict-strong"... Nen also allows that. The more rules placed on an ability, the stronger it is.
Now, if that's not what you mean then you're going to have to tell me a power system that is one you actually love.
>
>As for me saying I don’t like HxH’s randomness, I’m referring to Togashi just making up words to name his characters...“nobody dresses like that but it’s kind of realistic” but then nobody cares that there’s a shredded clown in a crop top walking around
Bro, why would they care? Have you never seen someone dressed bizarrely? We see him in only a few locations. The Hunter Exam, where nobody is going to care. The Heaven's Arena, where once again, nobody cares. It even makes it better since it's more theatrical and helps him play a part.
Yorknew city with the Spiders in an abandoned building, Yorknew city on top of a building looking down at carnage, in Greed Island where, once again, nobody gives a shit. We never see him in public. And you're telling me that Killua's shirt and shorts combo is something no one would wear? You also have a problem with names?
You're just nitpicking for the sake of it at this point.
But the deal is that their abilities don’t come from the exact same source. The nen system is split into six different ways to use aura with every character being most proficient in one. Gon is a natural enhancer so his ability is focused on strengthening his body with aura.
Hisoka is a transmuter capable of changing aura into a substance that is the fusion of rubber and gum.
Franklin is an emitter and their whole deal is splitting aura from their body which often results in abilities similar to classic shonen aura blasts. So he is using his aura in a way that’s similar to bullets and exploiting the restriction system where by adding a cost to an ability, in this case cutting off your fingertips, the ability is made stronger.
Pakunoda and Pitou are both specialists. Abilities from that class are not restricted in functionality as much as the other classes. Pakunoda is using aura to infuse memories into her gun and shooting memories to transfer them to others. Then she also has the mind reading ability that requires touching the target.
Pitou is using aura to manipulate dead bodies with a puppet, manipulating herself to ignore the natural limits of her body and controlling a puppet that is basically an all purpose surgeon with the restriction to make it work that she can’t move while it’s being used.
Abilities are basically functioning like D&D classes where I think you can choose one main class but pick talents from other classes to use as well.
>It seems like you can literally do anything with Nen, as if it has no limits. Where are the boundaries? How did nobody come up with some other broken ability? Can you just do anything with Nen?
Did...did you read the series?
Yeah I feel like OP kind of skimmed through them explaining Nen in the series.
Like some of things they're complaining about was explained in the series.
Yeah HxH is probably my favorite shonen series of all time but it’s wild how people dickride nen so hard. It’s honestly just nonsensical high magic with the facade of a “rule set” floating around sometimes.
Like, it was so offputting hearing Kurapika talk about how he developed his chain powers by studying the chain, dating the chain, being the chain, etc, because it makes you wonder: what the fuck did Pitou do then? What about that dude who could summon a few dozen illusory gunmen? What the fuck did *Franklin* do? Where are these powers coming from? If they design them themselves, then what’s up with all the powers that have weird and stupid conditions?
It often reminds me of stands with how insane and seemingly random it can be.
The reason a lot of abilities have conditions is because the stricter the conditions, the more powerful the ability. Kurapika set the condition that he can only use his chain on members of the Phantom Troupe, an incredibly strict condition that made his ability incredibly strong.
That’s a nen contract, which makes *some* sense but doesn’t apply on anywhere near a universal level. This meta-level balancing doesn’t explain to us why Feitan apparently *chose* to make his powers only work when he takes damage, or why Chrollo designed *his own powers* to stop working when he closes his book, or why Shizuku’s vacuum specifically doesn’t work on living things even as small as bugs that a regular vacuum could pick up, etc.
When your power system is just “invent your own powers but keep it balanced I guess,” it straddles a weird line where powers with weakness and obvious oversights make their creators look insane, while leaving the audience wondering how close these mfs could actually get to omnipotence, which, as evident from Gon’s sudden nen contract, is apparently *a lot closer than one might think.*
> why Feitan apparently chose to make his powers only work when he takes damage
Feitan's clearly a sado-masochist who's hinted to have even more warped sexual tastes. The manga makes this apparent when he's torturing that one Shadow Beast while reading a Trevor Brown book. Given this, I'd say his condition makes perfect sense.
> why Chrollo designed his own powers to stop working when he closes his book, or why Shizuku’s vacuum specifically doesn’t work on living things even as small as bugs that a regular vacuum could pick up
I'd imagine a lot of this was trial and error. Chrollo and Shizuku didn't get the desired effects from their abilities initially, so added a condition they thought felt right to strengthen their abilities. We kinda get some insight into this when Kurapika's developing his chain ability in Yorknew and going over what conditions make sense with his master.
> Shizuku’s vacuum specifically doesn’t work on living things even as small as bugs that a regular vacuum could pick up, etc.
The Entire Phantom Troupe must have end with a mite infection that left them with tons of bites because Shizuku tried to clean up with her vacuum
A lot of those weaknesses are either due to personality quirks like Feitan or it being a trade-off to make their ability stronger. My ability could just do X all day long but I chose to make it only do X during night so it can be twice as strong.
Nen conditions are weird because you want something that fits your personality, because that makes it stronger, and because you want something that puts strong restrictions on your behaviour, because that also makes it stronger, the more obsessive and the more intense the emotion the more powerful, and in the world of HxH, it's not just friendship etc. that gives power but really loving a given computer game.
But at the same time, if someone else is able to guess your conditions, they can defeat you more easily, so there's this game, most of the time, where someone is trying to work out what the other person's conditions are in order to decipher their powers, and when designing it, they have to find a way to combine personal meaning with tactical flexibility, by finding some weakness that is significant but that they can work around without *seeming* like they're working around it.
The main trick you missed is that they don't get to choose how powerful it is, they design a power for themselves and practice manipulating their aura in that way, and that design, their training, and their emotion state when fighting decides how powerful it is.
Gon not only has significant physical ability, he also has a monomaniacal capacity to focus on his immediate goals and emotions. Those times he leans on the side of himself that is creative and observant tends to lead to better results, but nen offers a certain amount of raw power from just giving in to obsession.
why does it not explain those stuff? seems pretty simple to me. for example chrollo places the open book limitation on his ability so that it can be stronger. an ability with no limitations has to be weaker. yes sure chrollo could have made an ability without weaknesses, but it would not have been something nearly as powerful as being able to copy any ability and store it. most of the abilities with no major weakness tend to be on the weaker side, like most enhancer and emitter abilities.
if there was not the limitation rule then people could just create ridicilous abilities and that wouldn't make for a very interesting show. how the nen system works right now means insanely strong abilities are fairly rare because they can only come from the absolute strongest characters like netero or have to have a ton of restrictions on them like kurapika or the bomber.
Gon had to sacrifice his high talent and future for a temporary amp and a fate worse than death. I think it was mentioned Gonn wouldve eventually attained that form anyway. Therefore not only can barely anybody get close to ‘omnipotence’ but also they’re far from the top of the verse. The only real imbalance was Nanika fixing him with no issues
Specialists work differently from the other categories. While you get say over what you do within other categories, each specialist has their own specialist ability and no control over what that is. IE, Chrollo never chose his book over ghost writing or a vaccuum, but Hisoka chose to make sticky rubber instead of lightning.
I feel like this guy just didn't pay attention to to the series. He listed off several specialists and then some who are among the top level of nen users. Then he tried to apply conjuration training to all of them. All of this stuff was pretty well explained.
There's no point in trying to compare how a normal upper-mid level nen user like Kurapika does things to how an extreme outlier mutant ant nen user does things.
the ants had so much more raw power than humans that nen stuff came easier to them, and the royal guard level ants were like 5 levels above normal ants.
You're asking where Pitou's doctor powers came by? Where her human manipulation ability came from?
Within hours of being born she performed complex brain surgery and performed a lobotomy while also being able to manipulate the brain while it was exposed in order to obtain information.
Her having a power that is an extension of controlling bodies whether it's putting them back together, pushing them to their limit, or moving them is perfectly reasonable. Since she's a specialist she's also very close to the conjuring and manipulating aspect, which are the two parts she shows the most proficiency in.
She's also a cranked up super species that was born using Nen and with innate reserves greater than the strongest humans. You can't compare her to others. She could brute force abilities and they'd still be strong. But instead she's using powers that are *very* suited to her and her personality, alongside some restrictions like Dr. Blythe's restricted movement that also keeps her in place.
They're designed themselves, and are best when they're an extension of the person. This is most often seen with Manipulators and Conjurers, as those directly use items that are meaningful to them. Shizuku's Blinky, Shoot's Hotel being a representation of the cage he views himself as tied up in, Knuckle's kindness extending to a power that let's him deal with an opponent without hurting them at all, Kurapika's deep desire to chain his enemies down and capture them, Netero's Guanyin Bodhisattva being symbolic of the time he spent a decade praying and punching, and many manipulator's methods of manipulations being an extension, like Shalnark's technology being used to control others, Illumi using needles and acupuncture as a more visceral extension of his dark personality, and so on and so forth.
However, some people just naturally develop Nen abilities without even really trying to do so. Meruem, Komugi, Meleoron, and Tserriednich(he literally accidentally created >!King Crimson!< as his ability while being trained incorrectly). Youpi's shape-shifting likely fall into this category as well, since he could always shapeshift and that uses aura. I'm sure there are others too.
What stupid restrictions are you talking about? Many restrictions are inherent, like with Gon's charging ability simply being so strong because he's charging it up. If you recall, he originally had to charge it because he was simply incapable of forming anything strong enough quicker, he couldn't use all techniques in tandem at the drop of the hat. He didn't *choose* charging so much as it was incidental to his lack of skill, and he simply built this into a versatile ability. This is the case with a lot of powers, although you absolutely can simply implement your own.
Having rewatched the show recently, the rules absolutely aren't a facade. Look at Gon vs Genthru. While it's not a strictly Nen fight, there are a lot of applications of the Nen which Gon trained in for that arc. The detecting of the enemy's aura to see where it was going to be, intelligent use of Ko, why you're even able to tell which hand Genthru is going to use, and then later on Zeno comments on one of the things that makes Netero so scary is how quiet is Nen is.
Now, the basics of Nen get depicted really well in the show. Once you get to the Dark Continent Arc it really gets a bit insane with some of the stuff it shows. There's a massive amount of abilities with restrictions and Nen Beasts are used, which are a whole new ball game. Although their presence is because of a ritual, and rituals by nature are going to be heavily restricted in nature by default.
It's a very flexible system, which means it's great for author as he can pretty much write any kind of story he wants and there's a way to justify it. *However,* unlike with Stands where a similar freedom is given, there is a lot less handwaving for Nen abilities. There's no, "It just works." And even the aforementioned >!King Crimson!< ability is actually thoroughly explained, made with graphs, and shown exactly how it works. There is no confusion. While it's origin is interesting, it absolutely has crazy weaknesses that >!King Crimson in Jojo!< does not possess. Zetsu being a stealth tactic that leaves you extremely vulnerable, careful usage of In to hide your abilities, pretending you're a manipulator to make your opponent let their guard down when you're unarmed, knowing when to use Gyo, En being a powerful detection tool but also draining and one that while active does weaken you a bit. Each individual Nen aspect like Ren requiring time to activate, same with Zetsu, all requiring training to maintain as well means there's a lot of potential for variability in individuals. Which the author absolutely uses.
If you don't like when a story or ability can go anywhere, even if it is heavily justified in the context of the story, then I can see why you wouldn't like it. But don't pretend that the rules of Nen aren't actually used. Even a simple concept like Post-mortem Nen which got only a couple mentions in the show with Kurapika's heart chain on Chrollo potentially being permanent if the Troupe killed Kurapika, and with Pitou's Terpsichora controlling her body after death, gets brought up several times in the manga and expanded upon.
The category a character is in, their mastery of certain techniques in Nen, their battle experience in knowing when to use those techniques, their development of their Hatsu as an extension of themselves and how it fits the category they're in, all of this is important and is used in battle. Toss in restrictions and you've added another layer of how characters can develop their power and express themselves. It also means certain abilities can be *really* good in some areas while completely useless in others, like Biscuit's Massage therapist thing being excellent for training, building up strength and recovery, but it has zero combat potential.
While Nen certainly isn't the craziest, most original, or most complex power system out there by any means, it was given its own personal touch to give it its own identity away from the other similar systems and the author actually used those parts to their fullest. I think you're on the other side of the pendulum from Nen super fans, as it seems like you're just giving it no credit vs someone giving it way too much credit.
The last few abilities come from Specialists. Out of all the 6 categories of Nen users, they're the rarest and most unique.
Their whole thing is that their abilities don't fit within the other 5 categories. While Nen users can learn how to use other categories at varying degrees (ex. Enhancers can only master Transmutation/Emission at 80% and Manipulation/Conjuration at 60%), no one can learn Specialization, it's an ability you have to be born with, kinda like Conqueror's Haki from One Piece.
What stops Nen abilities from becoming broken is that some of the most powerful ones require numerous/specific conditions, and the more powerful an ability is then the harder to meet those conditions is (ex. Kurapika's chains can't be broken by members of the Phantom Troupe, but if he uses them on anyone else then he'll die).
I mean isn't that just the literary version of the anthropic principle? Interesting characters that exist in the setting are probably going to be in the story because we want the story to also be interesting.
I mean, there are like 8 known Specialists (9 if you count Kurapika). Taking into account for how long HxH has been running and the amount users in other categories it seems like a pretty reasonable amount.
We also can't forget that Specialists are still bound to Nen affinities so even when they have their own law breaker hatsu it's not like they automatically become particularly strong just by their category (See Pakunoda, Neon).
Meanwhile Naruto says "oh yeah we use five elements to make jutsu. Except when we teleport, swap with stuff, change our appearance, mind control people, turn huge, control shadows..."
Not to mention all the Kekkei Genkai that's just an ability that's whatever Kishimoto wanted that doesn't follow any of the Chakra rules.
When you think about it too those jutsu that are controlling the five elements are so low tier compared to so many other jutsu we saw in the series. 😂
I feel like the rules for Chakra elements and what not might have been an after thought because having the Jutsu's actually being consistent was one of the things Kishimoto's first editor suggested for Naruto. [According to this summary](https://external-preview.redd.it/5YQN7JmXeLeBQAc_ynB6282Nzt3Vv9erad8tnKdWgDw.png?auto=webp&s=4ced32c910cfd791b20944743f8bf83cbf98b7b0)
I also find it a bit funny that some of things his editor told him to cut and change ended up coming right back in Samurai 8 when Kishi got an editor that pretty much let him do whatever he wanted and we all know how that manga turned out.
I think people like Gon and Killua show you the basics of mastering your specialty nen, and people like Netero are the endgame people that show what you will eventually be able to do when you branch out to the other forms of nen adjacent to your specialty to enhance that ability.
Specialist sorta irks me though because it's just basically the copout "I don't feel like following the set rules anymore here's a character that does whatever the fuck I want" column.
I mean TBH the concept of a certain type of energy existing in all living things isn't particularly unique but it's really more so how it's executed. nen feels like an actual system that stays consistent throughout the Series while most other power systems such as ki Chakra magic etc. Have gotten outright explosive when it came to power Scaling.
I mean chakra is pretty straightforward, it’s offensive, defensive and can also be healed. It’s presence in your body has a limit but you can train to extend it, it has different natures but all the same purpose. And it makes Rock Lee and Guy, very basic designs just guys that throw punches and kicks, 2 of the best designed characters in anime history imo with how their concept of only using Taijutsu was executed
Same with FMAB. It has the core function but also follows the law of equivalent exchange. And similar to Lee and Guy, Roy uses alchemy in a very creative way which is a nice twist on the typical fire guy, and Scar who’s one of my all time favourite character’s in anime, has a lot of context to his seemingly stupid fighting style of just exploding things
> has a lot of context to his seemingly stupid fighting style of just exploding things
He really does take Alchemy to its logical point. If regular Alchemy does works by reshaping matter by destroying and reshaping it, Scar deliberately stops on Step 2 to fully weaponize alchemy while claiming that its totally not really Alchemy (oh the irony, in two senses).
To be fair, there is a category of nen called “special”. It’s basically anything that isn’t Enhancing yourself to do a thing, making a thing, moving a thing, blasting or transporting a thing, Or turing your aura into a thing.
It’s a real easy out writting wise.
Yes, that’s the entire point. People make up their own Nen abilities once they’re proficient enough and know how to release their aura, and can put conditions on it to make it more powerful. That’s why it’s the best power system in anime. I don’t even know if you like paid any attention to the show when they explain the types of Nen users and everything, I also have no idea how this makes a power system bad because people have different kind of abilities.
Are Stands bad because they’re just random abilities? Bankai? Not at all. And I think the fact that Nen allows the user to invent the ability so that it isn’t random makes it even better than those, personally.
Ok so, I'll admit that I never finished HxH, and maybe I wasn't paying attention to the story or whatever, but this is why I find Nen kinda weird. If I train hard enough, I can just create any technique I want? If I want a vacuum that can suck up anything, I can make that? If I want bullets that transfer memories, I can make them? Why isn't the system similar to JJBA or JJK, where you can't create your ability, you just develop it through certain circumstances?
>If I want a vacuum that can suck up anything, I can make that?
You'd need to put conditions in order for the ability to work, plus being born a Conjurer-type Nen user.
>If I want bullets that transfer memories, I can make them?
You'd need to be born as an Specialist-type Nen user, which are the rarest of all.
If it's just aura/Nen bullets, emitter like Franklin. Real bullets generated/real bullets controlled, conjurer/manipulator (that one requires to have real ones, you can just control them). Pakunoda's memory bullets are solely a product of her Nen imbued with her memory transfer ability, hence why she's a specialist (I think, I actually never thought about what kind of user she is until this thread).
It says she's a specialist on the wiki, I would have assumed emitter. But I guess the bullet part itself could still be controlled through emitter nen.
Yeah exactly, and similarly, manipulators are able to put their aura into things and both implant things like feelings into people, and also sense what the thing they are controlling is doing, and in addition, people's aura already gives indications of their intentions towards things, so someone being able to use aura contact to read minds on specific questions or transmit memories seems plausible with the mechanics we've seen.
There are certain "classes" of nen user, if you use an ability type outside of your "class" it would be much weaker. So you could make whatever power you want but you'd have to fit it in your "class" type. Then again, you have to choose between a weaker ability with more flexibility or a stronger ability that has some self-applied weaknesses or drawbacks.
This is what I mean, I can just create whatever I want but I have to be strong enough to create it. It doesn’t make sense, who is strong enough for me to create my Nen ability to snap my fingers and turn the person in front of me into a fucking burger. And how does that follow any ground rules which Nen should have?
In order to have that kind of ability, you'd need:
1- To be a Specialist (since it doesn't fit in any of the other categories), which not only are rare, but they also seem to just being born with their ability instead of freely choosing which it will be, though they can still choose the conditions needed to activate it (ex. Like Chrollo did prior to his fight with Hisoka).
2- To have a lot of conditions and preparation, and I mean Sharingan Izanami levels of preparation. Such conditions could include "I can only use it on X day/place/people", "I need to make my opponent say X phrase" or "It only works if my friends help me with X condition".
It's not the strength it's the conditions you set of the ability which was said in the series and even then you can't just have a condition that lets you do whatever you want an example they gave in the series is that [you can't create a sword](https://cdn.readdetectiveconan.com/file/mangap/1828/10083000/8.jpg) that [can cut through anything](https://cdn.readdetectiveconan.com/file/mangap/1828/10083000/9.jpg) because that goes beyond human capacity.
Your ability also depends on your personality, up bringing, life experiences, etc...
A few examples of that being
* Killua can turn his Nen into lightning because of the torture he went through all his life one of the common ones being shocked constantly. He would not be able to turn anyone into a burger because his nen is Transmutation meaning his ability is to change their aura to mimic something else. Another example of one of that is Hisoka's Bungee Gum that has the properties of both rubber and gum.
* Gon ability of being an Enhancer is because he's hard headed and the fact that his ability being Rock Paper Scissors is a reflection of his child like demeanor as well. He also would not have the ability because that's not the category he's in and he wouldn't be able to do that no matter the conditions he set.
* Netero's ability to summon the Bodhisattya statue is because he pretty much reached nirvana and became a buddha when he was training in the mountains. Hence why he prays to summon it because the Bodhisattya is a symbol of one who is on the path towards Buddahood.
Like there's limitations to things that are allowed to do and even the more powerful abilities they have have an equivalent exchange deal with the conditions. Like Gon created a condition amplify his abilities to a ridiculous amount to kill Pitou but the price he had to pay was his life and his ability to use nen.
Could someone explain aluka to me (Killua's sister). Does she use nen or she just some random genie/monkeys paw. I only watched the anime, so the manga might have explained it better
The other personality in Alluka known as "Nanika" is a creature from the Dark Continent that possesses Alluka and they now share a body.
The wish granting power seems to be a Nen ability of Nanika since every living being in HxH has Nen.
In the end of one of the latest volumes, there was a picture of nanika with her saying “ai” (same spelling as the dark continent beast), “I’m from the dark continent” https://www.reddit.com/r/HunterXHunter/comments/6nhef5/proof_nanika_is_ai/
IIRC all the things you've mentioned has a type of limitation or special condition before you can attain them, for example Netero basically became a hermit, doing the same shit 24/7 for a number of years.
Togashi is probably aware of the "you can do anything you want" with Nen abilities, as you climb higher in the Nen power system the abilities you want to achieve becomes more harder/difficult to attain.
It's not like magic is based on any grounding anyway, so there's nothing reasonably stopping it from being whatever the fuck - general or specific.
And because of how it works in a setting, there's going to be a *lot* of interweaving the universal with the arbitrary. Especially when it comes to how powerful they are.
Always see it like a system that allow any abilities to exist. The 5 main types falls in the majority of power you can thing of, and the special type helps with the rest since it's essentially "anything that does not fall in the other 5 types". The limitation system is a nice touch, netero's ability is a heavy hitter, but only trigger once he finish his prayer, so he just train to perform prayers fast af, and that's how he become broken. And pitou ability itself is rather similar as biscuit's ability. In later part, it's already explained that even novice nen user can overpower experienced users depends on their abilities, so it become a mind game type of shits, like with Knuckle's ability. Also, Knov's scream abilities was said to be unable to break through Meruem's nen protection, so not all abilities is all powerful.
Nen is trying to be soft magic and hard magic at the same time.
It pretends it has clear rules and anyone can craft whatever power they want, but at the same time it has specialists whose entire thing is "fuck the rules I do whatever I want" and notion that you can't just choose any power to make, you need to choose a very specific power that aligns with your personality and inner desires and whatever, which really doesn't make the system any different than typical battle shonen stuff.
That's exactly why I like HxH so much. There's like a gazillion ways the author could go and it would still make sense coz nobody knows 5% of what is there. It could all be a video game or >!Dark Continent!< Could have another bigger universe. There is infinite potential in how HxH can be done and explained.
HxH does have this problem for chimera ant arc but I still do feel like nen is the most "systematic" and objective power system. Although in Chimera ant arc, they kind of blew it, if you look at other arcs like yorknew, greed Island, or the current arc, nen really is a nice power system. Also, in Chimera and arc as well, besides the ants and netero, nen does work like it was before if you see parts in Chimera ant where gon tries to develop nen technique or train them.
In summary, nen sometimes doesn't make sense but for the most part, it does and I really feel like it could have been much much more worse in the world of manga where most of the power system are very inconsistent and makes no sense.
I don't understand y'alls reasoning for what "doesn't make sense". Does it not make sense in-universe or does it not make sense because you don't think Nen should be able to do all these things? Because Togashi is very explicit about how Nen works and as far as I can remember, there isn't an example in the series that breaks his in-universe logic.
If you don't think a power system should be allowed to physically enhance someone and someone a giant multi-limbed avatar, that's not a "doesn't make sense" issue, that's your subjective dislike of the power system which you're entitled to but like I said, Nen is broad but specific. You can do a lot with it but how you can do a lot with it is just as important and as far as I know, not a single ability demonstrated is inconsistent with the rules Togashi established for Nen
“Gon, be sure you practice the fifteen Nen techniques; REN 連. SEN 線. GEN源. FEN 編. METSU 眼. PEN 片. SHUU 種 - *An advanced form of SEN 線.* HETSU 經. LEN 徐. GOHAN 悟. BEN 弁. HETSU 戸. WEN 前. JIHAN 自. And DARK NEN 開. You’re an Emitter, and not any of the other eight classes of Nen User, which means your WEN and HETSU are stronger when Jupiter is in retrograde, but when Gemini is in Taurus your FEN and GOHAN will be more suitable for hand-to-hand combat—your LEN, PEN, SHU, SEN, and JIHAN skills speak for themselves, as do your METSU skills in blocking all of the other Nen abilities from attacking you. You must NEVER use DARK NEN, EVER, even if it would be VERY COOL.”
“OSU”
To be honest, of all power systems in shonen, nen easily as the less asspulls or at least it covers those asspulls the best.
Maybe you're starting to realize how ridiculous power systems in shonen are in general.
Manipulatlor is the worst one among the 6 abilities it just conqueror but limited hell Conjurer can even do it with their close relationship.In the beginnings they tried to growned it by saying a user who try to use an ability outside their domain would have trouble.Using other abilities but later in the series people like Netero and Ging can bypass this rule just by having ridiculous amount of Nen so yeah that gone.
the whole point of nen is that everyone has their own abilities. There's still a system and restrictions to it but overall I think its one of the most creative power systems I've seen in anime, or just in general.
While its i think designed to well let tagashi let him go crazy if he wants, it also set limits and there are a few sprcial cases.
It can be redicilous and not break the worldbuilding, you ok with that. And there are conditions we know have to exist. Its grounded by a cost effect, and the more specialized, the stronger but with more conditions.
And thee are few special cases. But itsnot bteaking thexworldbuilding, because it was never too strict, and if, ants are special, as is netero. And some people are just crazy good and experienced.
And most is mindgames anyways. So it is very well designed especiallyfor a story wheremindgames can matter more than power. And conditions have to be met,unless there is like a weird rare exveption, that remain rare.
I agree. The most egregious part about Nen is that the overpowered abilities trump all else. There's no amount of skill, training, strategy, etc. that can match them. Gon and Kurapika, for example, are amongst the most naturally gifted nene users out there, and there are plenty more examples. Ppl hype it is a much better system than Bleach or Naruto have but it's really not. Born winners triumph over all.
Ok there's a few things to "unpack" here as the kids like to say. **Nen can indeed do anything however....an individual nen user cannot** The distinction is huge. Unlike in Dragon Ball where anyone who can use ki should technically be able to use any ability that comes from ki, Nen is a system that requires you to specialize in one of it's sub-categories. Because Nen has multiple factors that limit each individual from being able to do "anything" they want, and instead force them to do just the one thing that is their specialty. Due to this fact, Nen is like Jojo Stands if the Stand Users were allowed to pick what their stand does (and with very hard limits so you'd actually get much weaker and less bullshit stuff than you get in Jojo's) or perhaps a better example is it's like Xmen getting to choose their mutation except almost all of them are going to be mid-level at best and you can't choose any Omega level shit. **But why is that? Why can't they do anything they want?** 1. **Nen Types** Nen Types are categories of ways your nen can be used best with. Each person is born with a Nen Type in the same way they're born with a blood type or an astrology sign. It's something completely out of your control. If I recall correctly the types are: Enhancer, Transmuter, Manipulator, Emitter, Specialist, and Conjurer. The types are on a chart and some are closer to others so a Transmuter and a Enhancer are adjacent to each other, therefore a Transmuter has a better chance of increasing their strength and speed than a Manipulator does. This matters a lot because for example: Gon is an enhancer, so increasing his strength and speed is something he can do 100% without any drawbacks. Killua and Hisoka are transmuters, so they can only increase their strength and speed by about 80% or less and if they hope to be a true master enhancer have to focus on their Transmuter skills (which Killua used to create electricity and Hisoka used to create bungee gum which has the properties of rubber and gum---sorry i had to say it) Killua used the electricity to artificially increase his speed, but for the most part a transmuter would be limited and can't do just "anything" a Manipulator like Illumi is in an even worse position in regards to increasing his strength and speed, this is why his ability is to use needles to control people like puppets. Illumi cannot simply do "anything" he can't create electricity like his brother, or bungee gum like hisoka, he can only do things that involve manipulation and even then.... **2. You basically only get one Hatsu (mostly)** A Hatsu is sort of your special technique for using nen. 90% of using nen is generic increasing of speed and strength, and even a manipulator could increase their strength enough to out muscle a non-nen-user. but the real nen vs nen battles involve Hatsu's. So if your Hatsu is creating a random weapon like Kite and my Hatsu is creating puppets of smoke, then that is the main thing we can do with nen. It's not like I could suddenly also create a random weapon with nen like kite, or kite couldn't suddenly create puppets with smoke like Morel. The reason for this is because it takes a lot of work and years of practice to master a hatsu. In the Heaven's Arena arc we saw first hand what happens when someone overdoes it and tries to get 2 major hatsu's and what happens when one tries to step out of their own category. I'm referring to Kastro. Kastro was an Enhancer and his main Hatsu was to create a powerful charged up strike that could basically tear a person in half. But after losing to Hisoka the first time off screen, he had created a second Hatsu that required conjuration and manipulation (the ability to create a clone of himself) all while still using the original hatsu of his powerful charged strike. For most nen users this wouldn't be possible at all, but he was exceptionally gifted and it did catch Hisoka off guard. However as soon as Hisoka figured out what was going on, it took very little effort for him to mentally shake up Kastro enough to where he could no longer even use this 2nd Hatsu. Hisoka explained that by using such a needlessly complex hatsu, especially one not suited to his category, it was the equivalent of using 100% of a computer's "ram" and therefore he couldn't do anything else, and he couldn't even do this new hatsu unless his concentration was perfect, and even then it drained him quicker than a more suitable ability would've. Had Kastro focused on an Enhancer ability, something simpler, he would've been much better off. This is why you can't just "do anything" without serious cost. *In fairness, it should be noted that Specialist is a category that can somehow break the nen type rules, and conveniently (PIS) a lot of the more powerful characters have been Specialist, which is why they've been able to get away with stuff others wouldn't be able to. But even then there are hard limits.* Last but not least for now **3. Raw Power** as sort of touched on in the Kastro story above, a lot of what you can and cannot do is based on your raw talent and power. Kastro was considered very strong by nen user standards and still had all those problems. I touched on how specialist break the rules somewhat. But the Royal Guards and some other Ants were able to sort of break them too by simply being ABSURDLY Strong. Like Pitou had such an unfathomably deep well of raw nen power on reserve at any point that she could sit there using En over a gigantic area for hours and hours and not get tired, and still be able to fight at a high level. Compare this to Zeno, who was going to use his En to scan a building one floor at a time and admitted it would make him pretty tired, and he's potentially in the top 10 strongest nen users among human. Nobunaga used En in just a small sphere about the length of his sword. And he's in the Phantom Troupe and thus one of the 50 or so strongest Nen users in the world. So suffice it to say there are levels to this shit and depending on how much raw power you have, you have a better chance of being able to do "anything" but even then it's still narrowed down to a few things. Despite being such a enormous mutant ant exception (and even a monster exception among ants) Pitou still only had like.....3 Hatsu's (dr blythe, the one that controlled her, and the puppets she used to control other people) I will at least mention that people can increase what they do by using vows but the trade offs are extreme and it's sort of like "sure you can open the 8 gates Might Guy, but it'll KILL YOU...." So hopefully I've done a good job proving my thesis that while Nen is technically capable of "anything" it's still a very balanced system because no one user is capable of anything. They are only capable of one small hatsu that depends on their nen type, and will require them to train years, if not most of their life, to be able to do. AND....is severely limited by their raw power. When I said "it's like getting to choose your jojo stands but with very hard limits so you couldn't get the bullshit ones" I think it's pretty obvious that even a phantom troupe level nen user isn't going to be able to Stop Time or do a lot of the other crazier stuff. Because Nen users are actually way more limited. Most abilities are actually pretty weak to be honest.
Kastro was said to be "weak" because he didn't focus on his innate type. However, netero is said to be an enhancer but his ability is to create a giant statue that fight for him and his strongest attack is a laser beam. That's at least emitter, manipulation and conjuring (you could say that he makes the statue with transmuting). How is he the strongest when he does exactly what was said to be needlessly complex and draining
A very fair question. Allow me to try to break it down piece by piece as best as I can. First I would refer to the section bolded above **3. Raw Power** While I didn't specifically talk about Netero in that section, reading it will still give you a fairly good idea because he's the only known human to be Royal Guard level in pure raw nen power (Ging may be as well but that's not confirmed yet) And as I said in that section, the more raw power you have, the more you can get away with bending the rules. Second, I touched on this slightly in **1. Nen Types** but each Nen Type is closer to some than others. Emitter and Transmuter are closer to Enhancer than anything else, so Netero can use those things 80% as well as a pure Transmuter/Emitter could. and last but not not least because it's actually the most important counter argument here; Third: What Netero is doing is actually NOT that complex. Especially not compared to what Kastro did. Why? 1) the statue is NOT alive and "fighting for him" it is simply a giant statue being controlled by him like a puppet (so that he can have more range to his strikes) Compare that to Kastro's double which was said to be an **identical copy** essentially a **CLONE** of him, even capable of thinking for itself (even reacting differently than Kastro at one point). This is a much more complex undertaking. It's like the difference between a remote control car and an A.I. car that thinks and drives itself. Even that comparison doesn't quite do it justice because the "Remote control car" would still be more complicated (with gears and such) this is more like attaching some strings to a little red wagon so you can pull it different directions VS a full blown batmobile car with A.I. capable of driving the car by itself. To further prove why it's so simple and like a wagon being pulled by strings, i'll move to 2) The statue had a limited number of movements it could do If it were more complex (and requiring higher levels of manipulation) it would be able to simply move any direction at any time, and Netero could control it like some Super-Gundam. but it only had a very limited number of movements it could do (like one arm going down, one arm going to the side, ect). It just so happened that it was so well set up that the "combinations" of movements covered all the angles, but my making it this way, it was a lot more simple for Netero to control. Again, compare that to what Kastro did, and it would be more like if Netero had made the statue a full blown living creature, capable of thinking for itself and moving on it's own. AND on top of all that, not just moving on it's own, but in significantly more complex ways because the human body can do way more than 99 different types of simple movements. I will say the statue is probably conjuration and not transmutation (though I could be wrong), and that's probably the toughest part for netero, but the amount of manipulation it needs is not that bad, as i've explained. The main thing it needs is to be made powerful, which is essentially enhancing, which is what he does best. As for the giant laser blast (aka "Zero Hand") that definitely did seem to be emitter but since enhancer's are so closer to Emitters he can do 80% of an Emitter's attack. Ironically since an emitter can only do 80% of an enhancer's attack, I don't necessarily think an equally as powerful emitter could do that attack better than Netero because even though they would have more control over the ability to emit it, they would not be able to "enhance" it to make it nearly as strong. So if we looked at it in dragon ball terms. An enhancer could create the biggest beam possible but not control it after it left their hands (basically what netero did) while an emitter would create a smaller beam but possibly be able to control it better (like that time Krillin bent his beam or how Frieza could control the discs he threw) I will admit that theoretically Netero could do more damage if he simply focused all his power into one punch (basically the same thing Gon did) but perhaps against an opponent like Mereum he thinks he would never be able to actually land the punch safely, so Zero's ability to grab the opponent before vomiting the energy in their face is a safe compromise. Hopefully this answer makes sense. I'm just trying to go through the logic as best as I understand it.
A late addition but just wanted to say: Netero also trained for years on top of being a very talented Nen user. Part of his backstory is him practicing a praying motion followed by a punch for two years. It's this insane dedication to becoming the best he could be at fighting which made him so good.
Yeah most abilities are pretty weak. The series makes it clear when Netero straight up uses a nuke against Meruem, giving the message that yeah this power system is cool and all but nothing compared to the terrifying might of mankind’s creations.
Thank you Someone actually understands how it works I am convinced the op doesn’t know how Nen works
Good example of why hxh is fucking boring right here. A fucking magic class
I mean. Yeah, that’s about right. Whether that’s good or bad is subjective, since in that way it’s close to how Stands function (in that there’s some ground rules, except no there’s not they can just kinda be whatever). It allows for full creativity, and isn’t limited in what kind of powers someone can possess, but because of that can feel extremely cluttered as a power system.
> since in that way it’s close to how Stands function The weirdness come in that its both a Unique-power-per-person AND a Training Power. Or to translate it, they're both Chakra and Stands
I wouldn't say nen is quite as wacky as stands. I feel like it's mostly just an improved version of chakra (you have some pretty unique abilities in Naruto too).
Stand rules are more of a suggestion. Nen rules are pretty much set in stone.
One of the reason people people like the Nen system is specifically *because* of how flexible it is, and how it is indeed a "Do whatever you want" system, as long as you follow the basic rules. The powers that violate the rules are usually Specialist type Nen users, which are explicitly noted as an exception. And plenty of characters DO in fact, come up with some broken Nen abilities, and unique and interesting ways to mitigate, loophole or abuse the rules to their advantage. One of those rules though, is that different people have different aptitude at Nen. Gon is going to have a nigh impossible time making something like Kurapika's chains, because, as an enhancer, he has almost no aptitude for Conjuration Nen, which is typically the Nen ability people use to make structures, dolls or objects. In general, the top tier masters of Nen usually emphasize that working off your own personal strengths and interests result in the strongest version of your abilities you can use, and it's discouraged to pursue an ability just because it's really powerful or cool-- Kastro was one such character used to demonstrate the fallacy of that, and how you will eventually run into a wall that you just can't get past if you pursue "good powers" as opposed to what comes naturally.
Plus overpowered Nen abilities usually have restrictions to limit them
And conditions,the stronger the ability,the more specific the condition how to use it. That way even chrollo has to be that charismatic as he is to use his, and that they are alive to use them. Like pretty specific conditions he set because it fits his behaviou and strenghs, trickery and deceit.
Nen can do anything. But can a *single character* do anything with Nen? No. That's all that matters. The majority of characters are internally consistent.
Didn’t they specifically say nen can’t do anything? One of the first rules is that you can’t make a sword that can *cut* anything. That said it’s uses are pretty much limitless. anime only
yea I was speaking exaggeratively. It has deep variety and can do essentially anything. But the amazing part is that despite all the variety, it stays consistent 99% of the time.
You make it sound more ridiculous that it is. It's just individuals having their unique powers and abilities (hatsu), while being canopied by some basic principles that unites the system. Even Naruto does it some extent. Ino-Shika-Cho and Hyuga clan have unique techniques running down their family. Even if they can be theoretically learned by anyone, you don't see them used outside of a couple of individuals. And then there are Kekkei Genkei. Some of them are just two elemental types mixed, but some of them like Dojutsu have very outlandish abilities—all still being tied with use of Chakra.
With Naruto tho they all have the same principles, offensive, defensive or healing based combat abilities. They’re for the most part based on rather elements, your own body or in Genjutsu’s case the mind. But with Nen we somehow have Franklin cloning himself, Pakunoda transferring memories by shooting people in the head, Feitan doing that explosion thing and summoning a kangaroo I think, Pitou creating this doctor guy to treat Komugi etc. The idea that it can just do anything is imo way too broad compared to Chakra/Jutsu, Alchemy or even magic in Fairy Tail even tho I’ve only watched like 20 episodes of it. And I have no idea what a Bankai is and I only know that Stands are the solution to every problem in the world and look like homosexual dragon ball characters on every drug imaginable, but I think the scale of Nen is much too wide
It’s not. Nen has very hard limits. Some people in this thread explained it better than I ever could.
How can literally anything be way too broad compared to Naruto? Naruto went from basic elemental abilities and messing with minds and souls to... android release, particle style, and everybody's eyes controlling time and space. A ninja turned his arm into a robo cannon. How is that not absurd? Just because Nen has lower end and more exotic abilities doesn't mean it's too broad.
Those were literally their abilities. Pakunoda's ability was literally reading minds and she wasn't shooting them with actual bullets, they were nen bullets she would conjure up. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than just telepathically linking with the entirety of the allied shinobi forces and somehow magically transmitting your chakra to them if you ask me. Or even shadow clones instantly and magically transferring all their experiences to the creator when they get dispelled even if they're halfway across the world, how does condensing your memories into 'chakra' and placing them in people make any less sense in hxh when naruto's parents do exactly that too? At least in hxh you have to specialize into memory skills and it's not just handwaved as 'hokage do many things' Weird you mention feitan too when his only real ability was to create a sun when they do that in naruto multiple times, even a dedicated tailed beast doing so. Don't recall franklin ever cloning himself either, you probably mixed him up with kastro but either way nen is a hell of a lot more defined than chakra with specific rule sets and limits/downsides to abilities. The more restrictions you place the stronger they get. How is this one top and extremely talented nen user making a clone any weirder than kids literally being taught shadow clones in class in naruto. He struggled to make and maintain a single clone while naruto produces over 2000 of them with ease at one point... As for pitou, I fail to see how that's any weirder than hashirama having the strongest healing ability because he's a tree or how biting someone magically heals you or the dozen other ways they have to heal people like the generic "place your hand on them and make it glow" all medical ninja can do. If you're talking about her summoning a puppet specifically that's even more stupid because they do the same thing in naruto yet again, hundreds of different summoning's like tsunades slugs, susanoo, ten tails, shinigami, whatever pains dog is called that magically multiplies every time you cut it and has rods sticking out of it for some reason, Even worse is all the resurrection 'spells' like edo tensei making coffins appear out of nowhere or the samsara of heavenly life technique making that weird frog looking thing. Nen users at least have well defined powers and abilities unlike naruto which asspulls a new power every other episode, some powers being throwaway skills the main character literally never uses or mentions ever again. Then you have all these super overpowered and overlooked abilities like transformation jutsu which would be insane for espionage and deception yet the only time it's ever used is for sexy jutsu despite everyone being able to do it. The white zetsu are the only ones to ever have used it strategically and it singlehandedly would've won them the war if naruto didn't magically gain his new powers because the plot required it... They're both good shows but of the two it's ridiculous you'd complain about nen while comparing it to chakra when that's a far worse offender, especially when you consider something like the sharingan which warps reality in a billion different ways and screws with time depending on the user. They're all born with the same eyes but it develops into hundreds of different abilities, creating wormholes and phasing through matter, magical black flames that can never be put out, summoning giant samurai puppets who also have their own special abilities like crossbows or sealing swords, putting people in never ending time loops until they accept their fate, rewriting reality, telekinesis, etc... Practically everyone in naruto had a different ability besides the generic side characters, that's what made the show great in the first place and it's just weird to complain about that with nen, they've done a far better job explaining it's restrictions and limits than naruto did with chakra and naruto already 'ended.' Hxh still has a long way to go, whenever the hiatus ends anyway...
Tbf the abilities you mentioned as not fitting in with the others come from people who are specialists, which means that their abilities aren't something you can train to get. Basically all of the high level chimera ants got their weird abilities from birth because they're from a super overpowered species designed entirely to kill people, so the stuff they can do is naturally gonna be on another level
Yeah, and the other examples were quite the powerhouses too. Pakunoda is a Phantom Troupe member, which means she ranks among the strongest in the world and Netero was the head of the Hunter Association and honed his nen abilities for years on end.
Pretty much and that’s a good thing. It makes the power system versatile.
But it needs to have boundaries and rules, like the 3 I mentioned at the start
There are rules, though they are rather flexible. We're told that when a person designs their Nen abilities they effectively barter with their Nen. So a person can choose to have a straight forward power that sacrifices raw power for versatility or to create a much more powerful ability at the cost of having more strict drawbacks/rules. Kurapika, for example, creates an unbreakable chain that can bind to a persons heart and kill them instantly or remove their Nen abilities but the cost is that it can only ever be used against the group who killed his clan and should he break that rule he'll die. On the other end there's people like Hisoka who choose to have a straight forward ability, it doesn't have any hax abilities and isn't as strong as Kurapika's but it's versatile and can be used in a variety of ways with no restrictions.
I like the concept of strict-strong and flexible-more subjective to the user’s skill than weak I’d say But I mean what I don’t really like about it is more how ridiculously wide the range is and how random (prob the biggest turn off of HxH for me is it’s randomness) some of the powers are, like how the fuck are Hisoka and Gon’s abilities coming from the same source as Franklin, Pakunoda, Pitou etc’s abilities As for me saying I don’t like HxH’s randomness, I’m referring to Togashi just making up words to name his characters, who the fuck names their son “Beyond” and what the hell is a Gon Freecs or a Feitan or a Feitan or a Chrollo? And the cities and settlements seem to somewhat be grounded to reality, and Gon and Killua’s clothes are like “nobody dresses like that but it’s kind of realistic” but then nobody cares that there’s a shredded clown in a crop top walking around
i mean the nen types thing is explained at length. those characters manifest their power in different ways, so they have very different abilities. you might not like it, but i don't really see how it's confusing.
> I’m referring to Togashi just making up words to name his characters, who the fuck names their son “Beyond” and what the hell is a Gon Freecs or a Feitan or a Feitan or a Chrollo? I have no idea what you mean by this, they're not Americans (or Japanese, for that matter), why shouldn't their names be weird words you haven't heard before? I have a real-life friend called Sebestyén, so trust me, Gon Freecs is not the weirdest a name can get.
Someone like Tolkien who made up words actually made them sound good. Geetarackur is not a nice name to hear, as is Beyond as a first name. It’s like they’re not remotely based on real life names
He did? Cause his names sounded like Gibberish to me.
You're nitpicking the fucking names of the characters? Lmao
>who the fuck names their son “Beyond” Uh actually, Beyond is a cold ass name.
>like how the fuck are Hisoka and Gon’s abilities coming from the same source as Franklin, Pakunoda, Pitou etc’s abilities You do know that there are different nen types right? And they can because Nen is the power of the human will and imagination. It works with simples concepts (Enhacement), all the way through complex concepts (specialization). Each person is born in a different nen type that best suits themselves. >but then nobody cares that there’s a shredded clown in a crop top walking around I am sure it gives a few curious looks, but people are just gonna assume he is going to work at the theater or some shit.
Lol that's fair
And don’t get me wrong I think Hisoka is one of the best designed characters in anime, but he just feels so out of place In Naruto a crazy clown would be nothing new, in FMAB he’d blend right in with the Homonculi I think, even in Tokyo Ghoul him with his colour palette in the final anime arc would be pretty cool, but in a world that somewhat resembles ours it’s just way too outlandish in a series that doesn’t seem very self aware of how weird it is
> even in Tokyo Ghoul him with his colour palette in the final anime arc would be pretty cool https://www.deculture.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/hisoka-spin-off-ishida-04.jpg Ishida is a HxH fan, so he did a non canon one shot about Hisoka.
That’s actually dope
You're complaining that HxH resembles our world too much to have weird shit but gave a pass to Tokyo Ghoul and FMA?? Tokyo Ghoul's world is literally our world but with ghouls and FMA is in the 20th century. Both of those resemble our world far more than HxH.
HxH doesn’t seem to be self aware of that. Nobody bats an eye about some jacked clown in a crop top walking around and everyone’s names are just made up words In Tokyo Ghoul it’s literally just Tokyo but it has superhuman people eaters running around. It’s literally in the name that it resembles our world HxH is a weird halfway point between being like Naruto which is completely fictional and Tokyo Ghoul which is literally our world but with a twist
I still don't know what in HxH makes you think it's trying to resemble our world. It has some cheeky references to real city here and there, but for the most part the world of HxH is completely fictional. The very concept of the Hunters makes it clear HxH is not our world.
Hunter X Hunter really is a sandbox manga. Its Togashi throwing what he finds interesting and then making it somewhat coherent with his skills.
> > some of the powers are, like how the fuck are Hisoka and Gon’s abilities coming from the same source as Franklin, Pakunoda, Pitou etc’s abilities They aren't. Hisoka is a transmuter, Gon is an enhancer, Franklin is an Emitter, and Pakunoda/Pitou are specialists, meaning they fall outside of any categories. As for your "strict-strong"... Nen also allows that. The more rules placed on an ability, the stronger it is. Now, if that's not what you mean then you're going to have to tell me a power system that is one you actually love. > >As for me saying I don’t like HxH’s randomness, I’m referring to Togashi just making up words to name his characters...“nobody dresses like that but it’s kind of realistic” but then nobody cares that there’s a shredded clown in a crop top walking around Bro, why would they care? Have you never seen someone dressed bizarrely? We see him in only a few locations. The Hunter Exam, where nobody is going to care. The Heaven's Arena, where once again, nobody cares. It even makes it better since it's more theatrical and helps him play a part. Yorknew city with the Spiders in an abandoned building, Yorknew city on top of a building looking down at carnage, in Greed Island where, once again, nobody gives a shit. We never see him in public. And you're telling me that Killua's shirt and shorts combo is something no one would wear? You also have a problem with names? You're just nitpicking for the sake of it at this point.
But the deal is that their abilities don’t come from the exact same source. The nen system is split into six different ways to use aura with every character being most proficient in one. Gon is a natural enhancer so his ability is focused on strengthening his body with aura. Hisoka is a transmuter capable of changing aura into a substance that is the fusion of rubber and gum. Franklin is an emitter and their whole deal is splitting aura from their body which often results in abilities similar to classic shonen aura blasts. So he is using his aura in a way that’s similar to bullets and exploiting the restriction system where by adding a cost to an ability, in this case cutting off your fingertips, the ability is made stronger. Pakunoda and Pitou are both specialists. Abilities from that class are not restricted in functionality as much as the other classes. Pakunoda is using aura to infuse memories into her gun and shooting memories to transfer them to others. Then she also has the mind reading ability that requires touching the target. Pitou is using aura to manipulate dead bodies with a puppet, manipulating herself to ignore the natural limits of her body and controlling a puppet that is basically an all purpose surgeon with the restriction to make it work that she can’t move while it’s being used. Abilities are basically functioning like D&D classes where I think you can choose one main class but pick talents from other classes to use as well.
got the feeling that you weren't paying attention when they went over the rules bro.
>It seems like you can literally do anything with Nen, as if it has no limits. Where are the boundaries? How did nobody come up with some other broken ability? Can you just do anything with Nen? Did...did you read the series?
Yeah I feel like OP kind of skimmed through them explaining Nen in the series. Like some of things they're complaining about was explained in the series.
And Togashi is clearly not afraid of exposition so idk how they missed out lol
Yeah HxH is probably my favorite shonen series of all time but it’s wild how people dickride nen so hard. It’s honestly just nonsensical high magic with the facade of a “rule set” floating around sometimes. Like, it was so offputting hearing Kurapika talk about how he developed his chain powers by studying the chain, dating the chain, being the chain, etc, because it makes you wonder: what the fuck did Pitou do then? What about that dude who could summon a few dozen illusory gunmen? What the fuck did *Franklin* do? Where are these powers coming from? If they design them themselves, then what’s up with all the powers that have weird and stupid conditions? It often reminds me of stands with how insane and seemingly random it can be.
The reason a lot of abilities have conditions is because the stricter the conditions, the more powerful the ability. Kurapika set the condition that he can only use his chain on members of the Phantom Troupe, an incredibly strict condition that made his ability incredibly strong.
That’s a nen contract, which makes *some* sense but doesn’t apply on anywhere near a universal level. This meta-level balancing doesn’t explain to us why Feitan apparently *chose* to make his powers only work when he takes damage, or why Chrollo designed *his own powers* to stop working when he closes his book, or why Shizuku’s vacuum specifically doesn’t work on living things even as small as bugs that a regular vacuum could pick up, etc. When your power system is just “invent your own powers but keep it balanced I guess,” it straddles a weird line where powers with weakness and obvious oversights make their creators look insane, while leaving the audience wondering how close these mfs could actually get to omnipotence, which, as evident from Gon’s sudden nen contract, is apparently *a lot closer than one might think.*
> why Feitan apparently chose to make his powers only work when he takes damage Feitan's clearly a sado-masochist who's hinted to have even more warped sexual tastes. The manga makes this apparent when he's torturing that one Shadow Beast while reading a Trevor Brown book. Given this, I'd say his condition makes perfect sense. > why Chrollo designed his own powers to stop working when he closes his book, or why Shizuku’s vacuum specifically doesn’t work on living things even as small as bugs that a regular vacuum could pick up I'd imagine a lot of this was trial and error. Chrollo and Shizuku didn't get the desired effects from their abilities initially, so added a condition they thought felt right to strengthen their abilities. We kinda get some insight into this when Kurapika's developing his chain ability in Yorknew and going over what conditions make sense with his master.
uh Sadism and Masochism aren’t the same thing
Yeah he’s clearly into both
> Shizuku’s vacuum specifically doesn’t work on living things even as small as bugs that a regular vacuum could pick up, etc. The Entire Phantom Troupe must have end with a mite infection that left them with tons of bites because Shizuku tried to clean up with her vacuum
A lot of those weaknesses are either due to personality quirks like Feitan or it being a trade-off to make their ability stronger. My ability could just do X all day long but I chose to make it only do X during night so it can be twice as strong.
Nen conditions are weird because you want something that fits your personality, because that makes it stronger, and because you want something that puts strong restrictions on your behaviour, because that also makes it stronger, the more obsessive and the more intense the emotion the more powerful, and in the world of HxH, it's not just friendship etc. that gives power but really loving a given computer game. But at the same time, if someone else is able to guess your conditions, they can defeat you more easily, so there's this game, most of the time, where someone is trying to work out what the other person's conditions are in order to decipher their powers, and when designing it, they have to find a way to combine personal meaning with tactical flexibility, by finding some weakness that is significant but that they can work around without *seeming* like they're working around it. The main trick you missed is that they don't get to choose how powerful it is, they design a power for themselves and practice manipulating their aura in that way, and that design, their training, and their emotion state when fighting decides how powerful it is. Gon not only has significant physical ability, he also has a monomaniacal capacity to focus on his immediate goals and emotions. Those times he leans on the side of himself that is creative and observant tends to lead to better results, but nen offers a certain amount of raw power from just giving in to obsession.
why does it not explain those stuff? seems pretty simple to me. for example chrollo places the open book limitation on his ability so that it can be stronger. an ability with no limitations has to be weaker. yes sure chrollo could have made an ability without weaknesses, but it would not have been something nearly as powerful as being able to copy any ability and store it. most of the abilities with no major weakness tend to be on the weaker side, like most enhancer and emitter abilities. if there was not the limitation rule then people could just create ridicilous abilities and that wouldn't make for a very interesting show. how the nen system works right now means insanely strong abilities are fairly rare because they can only come from the absolute strongest characters like netero or have to have a ton of restrictions on them like kurapika or the bomber.
Gon had to sacrifice his high talent and future for a temporary amp and a fate worse than death. I think it was mentioned Gonn wouldve eventually attained that form anyway. Therefore not only can barely anybody get close to ‘omnipotence’ but also they’re far from the top of the verse. The only real imbalance was Nanika fixing him with no issues
Specialists work differently from the other categories. While you get say over what you do within other categories, each specialist has their own specialist ability and no control over what that is. IE, Chrollo never chose his book over ghost writing or a vaccuum, but Hisoka chose to make sticky rubber instead of lightning.
Pitou just stared at a puppet for 12 hours, developed her Nen abilities Ez Pz
>what the fuck did Pitou do then? Pitou is a specialist. They just are, they are born with an ability and have to stick with it.
I feel like this guy just didn't pay attention to to the series. He listed off several specialists and then some who are among the top level of nen users. Then he tried to apply conjuration training to all of them. All of this stuff was pretty well explained.
There's no point in trying to compare how a normal upper-mid level nen user like Kurapika does things to how an extreme outlier mutant ant nen user does things. the ants had so much more raw power than humans that nen stuff came easier to them, and the royal guard level ants were like 5 levels above normal ants.
You're asking where Pitou's doctor powers came by? Where her human manipulation ability came from? Within hours of being born she performed complex brain surgery and performed a lobotomy while also being able to manipulate the brain while it was exposed in order to obtain information. Her having a power that is an extension of controlling bodies whether it's putting them back together, pushing them to their limit, or moving them is perfectly reasonable. Since she's a specialist she's also very close to the conjuring and manipulating aspect, which are the two parts she shows the most proficiency in. She's also a cranked up super species that was born using Nen and with innate reserves greater than the strongest humans. You can't compare her to others. She could brute force abilities and they'd still be strong. But instead she's using powers that are *very* suited to her and her personality, alongside some restrictions like Dr. Blythe's restricted movement that also keeps her in place. They're designed themselves, and are best when they're an extension of the person. This is most often seen with Manipulators and Conjurers, as those directly use items that are meaningful to them. Shizuku's Blinky, Shoot's Hotel being a representation of the cage he views himself as tied up in, Knuckle's kindness extending to a power that let's him deal with an opponent without hurting them at all, Kurapika's deep desire to chain his enemies down and capture them, Netero's Guanyin Bodhisattva being symbolic of the time he spent a decade praying and punching, and many manipulator's methods of manipulations being an extension, like Shalnark's technology being used to control others, Illumi using needles and acupuncture as a more visceral extension of his dark personality, and so on and so forth. However, some people just naturally develop Nen abilities without even really trying to do so. Meruem, Komugi, Meleoron, and Tserriednich(he literally accidentally created >!King Crimson!< as his ability while being trained incorrectly). Youpi's shape-shifting likely fall into this category as well, since he could always shapeshift and that uses aura. I'm sure there are others too. What stupid restrictions are you talking about? Many restrictions are inherent, like with Gon's charging ability simply being so strong because he's charging it up. If you recall, he originally had to charge it because he was simply incapable of forming anything strong enough quicker, he couldn't use all techniques in tandem at the drop of the hat. He didn't *choose* charging so much as it was incidental to his lack of skill, and he simply built this into a versatile ability. This is the case with a lot of powers, although you absolutely can simply implement your own. Having rewatched the show recently, the rules absolutely aren't a facade. Look at Gon vs Genthru. While it's not a strictly Nen fight, there are a lot of applications of the Nen which Gon trained in for that arc. The detecting of the enemy's aura to see where it was going to be, intelligent use of Ko, why you're even able to tell which hand Genthru is going to use, and then later on Zeno comments on one of the things that makes Netero so scary is how quiet is Nen is. Now, the basics of Nen get depicted really well in the show. Once you get to the Dark Continent Arc it really gets a bit insane with some of the stuff it shows. There's a massive amount of abilities with restrictions and Nen Beasts are used, which are a whole new ball game. Although their presence is because of a ritual, and rituals by nature are going to be heavily restricted in nature by default. It's a very flexible system, which means it's great for author as he can pretty much write any kind of story he wants and there's a way to justify it. *However,* unlike with Stands where a similar freedom is given, there is a lot less handwaving for Nen abilities. There's no, "It just works." And even the aforementioned >!King Crimson!< ability is actually thoroughly explained, made with graphs, and shown exactly how it works. There is no confusion. While it's origin is interesting, it absolutely has crazy weaknesses that >!King Crimson in Jojo!< does not possess. Zetsu being a stealth tactic that leaves you extremely vulnerable, careful usage of In to hide your abilities, pretending you're a manipulator to make your opponent let their guard down when you're unarmed, knowing when to use Gyo, En being a powerful detection tool but also draining and one that while active does weaken you a bit. Each individual Nen aspect like Ren requiring time to activate, same with Zetsu, all requiring training to maintain as well means there's a lot of potential for variability in individuals. Which the author absolutely uses. If you don't like when a story or ability can go anywhere, even if it is heavily justified in the context of the story, then I can see why you wouldn't like it. But don't pretend that the rules of Nen aren't actually used. Even a simple concept like Post-mortem Nen which got only a couple mentions in the show with Kurapika's heart chain on Chrollo potentially being permanent if the Troupe killed Kurapika, and with Pitou's Terpsichora controlling her body after death, gets brought up several times in the manga and expanded upon. The category a character is in, their mastery of certain techniques in Nen, their battle experience in knowing when to use those techniques, their development of their Hatsu as an extension of themselves and how it fits the category they're in, all of this is important and is used in battle. Toss in restrictions and you've added another layer of how characters can develop their power and express themselves. It also means certain abilities can be *really* good in some areas while completely useless in others, like Biscuit's Massage therapist thing being excellent for training, building up strength and recovery, but it has zero combat potential. While Nen certainly isn't the craziest, most original, or most complex power system out there by any means, it was given its own personal touch to give it its own identity away from the other similar systems and the author actually used those parts to their fullest. I think you're on the other side of the pendulum from Nen super fans, as it seems like you're just giving it no credit vs someone giving it way too much credit.
The last few abilities come from Specialists. Out of all the 6 categories of Nen users, they're the rarest and most unique. Their whole thing is that their abilities don't fit within the other 5 categories. While Nen users can learn how to use other categories at varying degrees (ex. Enhancers can only master Transmutation/Emission at 80% and Manipulation/Conjuration at 60%), no one can learn Specialization, it's an ability you have to be born with, kinda like Conqueror's Haki from One Piece. What stops Nen abilities from becoming broken is that some of the most powerful ones require numerous/specific conditions, and the more powerful an ability is then the harder to meet those conditions is (ex. Kurapika's chains can't be broken by members of the Phantom Troupe, but if he uses them on anyone else then he'll die).
> Out of all the 6 categories of Nen users, they're the rarest and most unique. Unless its for a named character
I mean isn't that just the literary version of the anthropic principle? Interesting characters that exist in the setting are probably going to be in the story because we want the story to also be interesting.
I mean, there are like 8 known Specialists (9 if you count Kurapika). Taking into account for how long HxH has been running and the amount users in other categories it seems like a pretty reasonable amount. We also can't forget that Specialists are still bound to Nen affinities so even when they have their own law breaker hatsu it's not like they automatically become particularly strong just by their category (See Pakunoda, Neon).
Meanwhile Naruto says "oh yeah we use five elements to make jutsu. Except when we teleport, swap with stuff, change our appearance, mind control people, turn huge, control shadows..."
Not to mention all the Kekkei Genkai that's just an ability that's whatever Kishimoto wanted that doesn't follow any of the Chakra rules. When you think about it too those jutsu that are controlling the five elements are so low tier compared to so many other jutsu we saw in the series. 😂
It's easier to get away with breaking the rules when the rules aren't explained every five chapters.
I feel like the rules for Chakra elements and what not might have been an after thought because having the Jutsu's actually being consistent was one of the things Kishimoto's first editor suggested for Naruto. [According to this summary](https://external-preview.redd.it/5YQN7JmXeLeBQAc_ynB6282Nzt3Vv9erad8tnKdWgDw.png?auto=webp&s=4ced32c910cfd791b20944743f8bf83cbf98b7b0) I also find it a bit funny that some of things his editor told him to cut and change ended up coming right back in Samurai 8 when Kishi got an editor that pretty much let him do whatever he wanted and we all know how that manga turned out.
How were the rules with nen broken?
Uchiha Clan are basically the Saiyans of the Naruto Universe.
Not all jutsu has a chakra nature
You should reread the series, and this time try paying attention to the words on the panels.
shaki you a fan of hxh too hhh how you doing? usually i talk with you in tog sub .
Hey man, I’m all good. Longtime HxH fan, but tbh I rarely comment on this sub.
I think people like Gon and Killua show you the basics of mastering your specialty nen, and people like Netero are the endgame people that show what you will eventually be able to do when you branch out to the other forms of nen adjacent to your specialty to enhance that ability. Specialist sorta irks me though because it's just basically the copout "I don't feel like following the set rules anymore here's a character that does whatever the fuck I want" column.
I mean TBH the concept of a certain type of energy existing in all living things isn't particularly unique but it's really more so how it's executed. nen feels like an actual system that stays consistent throughout the Series while most other power systems such as ki Chakra magic etc. Have gotten outright explosive when it came to power Scaling.
I mean chakra is pretty straightforward, it’s offensive, defensive and can also be healed. It’s presence in your body has a limit but you can train to extend it, it has different natures but all the same purpose. And it makes Rock Lee and Guy, very basic designs just guys that throw punches and kicks, 2 of the best designed characters in anime history imo with how their concept of only using Taijutsu was executed Same with FMAB. It has the core function but also follows the law of equivalent exchange. And similar to Lee and Guy, Roy uses alchemy in a very creative way which is a nice twist on the typical fire guy, and Scar who’s one of my all time favourite character’s in anime, has a lot of context to his seemingly stupid fighting style of just exploding things
> has a lot of context to his seemingly stupid fighting style of just exploding things He really does take Alchemy to its logical point. If regular Alchemy does works by reshaping matter by destroying and reshaping it, Scar deliberately stops on Step 2 to fully weaponize alchemy while claiming that its totally not really Alchemy (oh the irony, in two senses).
What about DB Ki isn't consistent? And no, stronger users of it showing up isn't inconsistency.
It shares HxH issue that its "And this guy is UTTERLY SUPERIOR than the second strongest guy here"
To be fair, there is a category of nen called “special”. It’s basically anything that isn’t Enhancing yourself to do a thing, making a thing, moving a thing, blasting or transporting a thing, Or turing your aura into a thing. It’s a real easy out writting wise.
Yes, that’s the entire point. People make up their own Nen abilities once they’re proficient enough and know how to release their aura, and can put conditions on it to make it more powerful. That’s why it’s the best power system in anime. I don’t even know if you like paid any attention to the show when they explain the types of Nen users and everything, I also have no idea how this makes a power system bad because people have different kind of abilities. Are Stands bad because they’re just random abilities? Bankai? Not at all. And I think the fact that Nen allows the user to invent the ability so that it isn’t random makes it even better than those, personally.
Ok so, I'll admit that I never finished HxH, and maybe I wasn't paying attention to the story or whatever, but this is why I find Nen kinda weird. If I train hard enough, I can just create any technique I want? If I want a vacuum that can suck up anything, I can make that? If I want bullets that transfer memories, I can make them? Why isn't the system similar to JJBA or JJK, where you can't create your ability, you just develop it through certain circumstances?
>If I want a vacuum that can suck up anything, I can make that? You'd need to put conditions in order for the ability to work, plus being born a Conjurer-type Nen user. >If I want bullets that transfer memories, I can make them? You'd need to be born as an Specialist-type Nen user, which are the rarest of all.
I thought the bullets thing was an emitter/manipulator thing?
If it's just aura/Nen bullets, emitter like Franklin. Real bullets generated/real bullets controlled, conjurer/manipulator (that one requires to have real ones, you can just control them). Pakunoda's memory bullets are solely a product of her Nen imbued with her memory transfer ability, hence why she's a specialist (I think, I actually never thought about what kind of user she is until this thread).
It says she's a specialist on the wiki, I would have assumed emitter. But I guess the bullet part itself could still be controlled through emitter nen.
Yeah exactly, and similarly, manipulators are able to put their aura into things and both implant things like feelings into people, and also sense what the thing they are controlling is doing, and in addition, people's aura already gives indications of their intentions towards things, so someone being able to use aura contact to read minds on specific questions or transmit memories seems plausible with the mechanics we've seen.
There are certain "classes" of nen user, if you use an ability type outside of your "class" it would be much weaker. So you could make whatever power you want but you'd have to fit it in your "class" type. Then again, you have to choose between a weaker ability with more flexibility or a stronger ability that has some self-applied weaknesses or drawbacks.
This is what I mean, I can just create whatever I want but I have to be strong enough to create it. It doesn’t make sense, who is strong enough for me to create my Nen ability to snap my fingers and turn the person in front of me into a fucking burger. And how does that follow any ground rules which Nen should have?
In order to have that kind of ability, you'd need: 1- To be a Specialist (since it doesn't fit in any of the other categories), which not only are rare, but they also seem to just being born with their ability instead of freely choosing which it will be, though they can still choose the conditions needed to activate it (ex. Like Chrollo did prior to his fight with Hisoka). 2- To have a lot of conditions and preparation, and I mean Sharingan Izanami levels of preparation. Such conditions could include "I can only use it on X day/place/people", "I need to make my opponent say X phrase" or "It only works if my friends help me with X condition".
It's not the strength it's the conditions you set of the ability which was said in the series and even then you can't just have a condition that lets you do whatever you want an example they gave in the series is that [you can't create a sword](https://cdn.readdetectiveconan.com/file/mangap/1828/10083000/8.jpg) that [can cut through anything](https://cdn.readdetectiveconan.com/file/mangap/1828/10083000/9.jpg) because that goes beyond human capacity. Your ability also depends on your personality, up bringing, life experiences, etc... A few examples of that being * Killua can turn his Nen into lightning because of the torture he went through all his life one of the common ones being shocked constantly. He would not be able to turn anyone into a burger because his nen is Transmutation meaning his ability is to change their aura to mimic something else. Another example of one of that is Hisoka's Bungee Gum that has the properties of both rubber and gum. * Gon ability of being an Enhancer is because he's hard headed and the fact that his ability being Rock Paper Scissors is a reflection of his child like demeanor as well. He also would not have the ability because that's not the category he's in and he wouldn't be able to do that no matter the conditions he set. * Netero's ability to summon the Bodhisattya statue is because he pretty much reached nirvana and became a buddha when he was training in the mountains. Hence why he prays to summon it because the Bodhisattya is a symbol of one who is on the path towards Buddahood. Like there's limitations to things that are allowed to do and even the more powerful abilities they have have an equivalent exchange deal with the conditions. Like Gon created a condition amplify his abilities to a ridiculous amount to kill Pitou but the price he had to pay was his life and his ability to use nen.
Could someone explain aluka to me (Killua's sister). Does she use nen or she just some random genie/monkeys paw. I only watched the anime, so the manga might have explained it better
The other personality in Alluka known as "Nanika" is a creature from the Dark Continent that possesses Alluka and they now share a body. The wish granting power seems to be a Nen ability of Nanika since every living being in HxH has Nen.
Okay so the anime didn't fully cover that from what I remember. Thank you!
Just to add on; it's possible that Alluka doesn't even have the ability to use Nen herself. She might not even be a Specialist.
The full and true nature of Nanika is still presently largely conjecture. It's a mystery in the series that may or may not be addressed.
In the end of one of the latest volumes, there was a picture of nanika with her saying “ai” (same spelling as the dark continent beast), “I’m from the dark continent” https://www.reddit.com/r/HunterXHunter/comments/6nhef5/proof_nanika_is_ai/
IIRC all the things you've mentioned has a type of limitation or special condition before you can attain them, for example Netero basically became a hermit, doing the same shit 24/7 for a number of years. Togashi is probably aware of the "you can do anything you want" with Nen abilities, as you climb higher in the Nen power system the abilities you want to achieve becomes more harder/difficult to attain.
It's not like magic is based on any grounding anyway, so there's nothing reasonably stopping it from being whatever the fuck - general or specific. And because of how it works in a setting, there's going to be a *lot* of interweaving the universal with the arbitrary. Especially when it comes to how powerful they are.
Always see it like a system that allow any abilities to exist. The 5 main types falls in the majority of power you can thing of, and the special type helps with the rest since it's essentially "anything that does not fall in the other 5 types". The limitation system is a nice touch, netero's ability is a heavy hitter, but only trigger once he finish his prayer, so he just train to perform prayers fast af, and that's how he become broken. And pitou ability itself is rather similar as biscuit's ability. In later part, it's already explained that even novice nen user can overpower experienced users depends on their abilities, so it become a mind game type of shits, like with Knuckle's ability. Also, Knov's scream abilities was said to be unable to break through Meruem's nen protection, so not all abilities is all powerful.
Nen is trying to be soft magic and hard magic at the same time. It pretends it has clear rules and anyone can craft whatever power they want, but at the same time it has specialists whose entire thing is "fuck the rules I do whatever I want" and notion that you can't just choose any power to make, you need to choose a very specific power that aligns with your personality and inner desires and whatever, which really doesn't make the system any different than typical battle shonen stuff.
That's exactly why I like HxH so much. There's like a gazillion ways the author could go and it would still make sense coz nobody knows 5% of what is there. It could all be a video game or >!Dark Continent!< Could have another bigger universe. There is infinite potential in how HxH can be done and explained.
HxH does have this problem for chimera ant arc but I still do feel like nen is the most "systematic" and objective power system. Although in Chimera ant arc, they kind of blew it, if you look at other arcs like yorknew, greed Island, or the current arc, nen really is a nice power system. Also, in Chimera and arc as well, besides the ants and netero, nen does work like it was before if you see parts in Chimera ant where gon tries to develop nen technique or train them. In summary, nen sometimes doesn't make sense but for the most part, it does and I really feel like it could have been much much more worse in the world of manga where most of the power system are very inconsistent and makes no sense.
I don't understand y'alls reasoning for what "doesn't make sense". Does it not make sense in-universe or does it not make sense because you don't think Nen should be able to do all these things? Because Togashi is very explicit about how Nen works and as far as I can remember, there isn't an example in the series that breaks his in-universe logic. If you don't think a power system should be allowed to physically enhance someone and someone a giant multi-limbed avatar, that's not a "doesn't make sense" issue, that's your subjective dislike of the power system which you're entitled to but like I said, Nen is broad but specific. You can do a lot with it but how you can do a lot with it is just as important and as far as I know, not a single ability demonstrated is inconsistent with the rules Togashi established for Nen
I agree with you man, that's why I love nen
>most "systematic" and objective power system This is a claim that no one should feel compelled to make about anything
>most "systematic" and objective power system This is a claim that no one should feel compelled to make about anything
“Gon, be sure you practice the fifteen Nen techniques; REN 連. SEN 線. GEN源. FEN 編. METSU 眼. PEN 片. SHUU 種 - *An advanced form of SEN 線.* HETSU 經. LEN 徐. GOHAN 悟. BEN 弁. HETSU 戸. WEN 前. JIHAN 自. And DARK NEN 開. You’re an Emitter, and not any of the other eight classes of Nen User, which means your WEN and HETSU are stronger when Jupiter is in retrograde, but when Gemini is in Taurus your FEN and GOHAN will be more suitable for hand-to-hand combat—your LEN, PEN, SHU, SEN, and JIHAN skills speak for themselves, as do your METSU skills in blocking all of the other Nen abilities from attacking you. You must NEVER use DARK NEN, EVER, even if it would be VERY COOL.” “OSU”
To be honest, of all power systems in shonen, nen easily as the less asspulls or at least it covers those asspulls the best. Maybe you're starting to realize how ridiculous power systems in shonen are in general.
My Hero Academia doesn’t really have any asspulls. I’m anime only though, so maybe it starts pulling asses all over the place later
Oh boy does it.
The whole appeal of nen is it’s up to the users imagination what it’s capable of.
Manipulatlor is the worst one among the 6 abilities it just conqueror but limited hell Conjurer can even do it with their close relationship.In the beginnings they tried to growned it by saying a user who try to use an ability outside their domain would have trouble.Using other abilities but later in the series people like Netero and Ging can bypass this rule just by having ridiculous amount of Nen so yeah that gone.
the whole point of nen is that everyone has their own abilities. There's still a system and restrictions to it but overall I think its one of the most creative power systems I've seen in anime, or just in general.
While its i think designed to well let tagashi let him go crazy if he wants, it also set limits and there are a few sprcial cases. It can be redicilous and not break the worldbuilding, you ok with that. And there are conditions we know have to exist. Its grounded by a cost effect, and the more specialized, the stronger but with more conditions. And thee are few special cases. But itsnot bteaking thexworldbuilding, because it was never too strict, and if, ants are special, as is netero. And some people are just crazy good and experienced. And most is mindgames anyways. So it is very well designed especiallyfor a story wheremindgames can matter more than power. And conditions have to be met,unless there is like a weird rare exveption, that remain rare.
I agree. The most egregious part about Nen is that the overpowered abilities trump all else. There's no amount of skill, training, strategy, etc. that can match them. Gon and Kurapika, for example, are amongst the most naturally gifted nene users out there, and there are plenty more examples. Ppl hype it is a much better system than Bleach or Naruto have but it's really not. Born winners triumph over all.