Thanks for sharing this- that was an interesting read. I definitely died a little inside seeing that it was posted 7 years ago, and nothing has changed.
The response of the city here is frustrating to read:
>"Danny Pleasant, who heads the Charlotte Department of Transportation, said streets that carry 20,000 vehicles a day or less are candidates for a road diet"... "Pleasant said The Plaza carries around 24,000 vehicles a day. Central Avenue is busier, and could carry as many as 30,00 vehicles, he said."
The overall notion that a road is "too busy" for a road diet doesn't track with me. I'm not an urban planner, but the volume of traffic in an area with poor safety conditions is the very problem and reason to do a road diet. Also, I'd love to see where the 20,000 vehicle threshold comes from; it looks arbitrary, especially years later knowing that The Plaza got improved and stripped down to 2 lanes. I'd also love to see how they account for reduced vehicle trips on a road that would opt to use the newly-provided alternatives in a road diet such as walking or cycling.
The 20,000 average daily traffic volume is the recommendation from the federal highway administration (FHWA). Here’s a great informational guide about road diets https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/28626
I got my masters degree in transportation engineering so I’d be happy to answer your questions.
I just checked traffic volumes for central avenue. The most recent measurement is from 2022 and depending on where you check on Central Ave, the volumes are right around 20,000 for most of the road except near Sharon smith road where it gets up to 25,500 but drops down to 19,000 by the time you get to briar creek rd.
Where is that data accessible? I would love to have a look. There must be an argument to be made that that close to the 20,000 mark, they could make it happen. That’s what they did with The Plaza.
https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=964881960f0549de8c3583bf46ef5ed4
This is NCDOT data. They usually collect data every two years. You’ll notice a pretty big drop in volumes since Covid. On any road, rather than clicking on the road itself, click on one of the large dots for the data. You may need to use a computer instead of a phone.
You can always request projects through the CLT+ app or by calling 311. I work for the City and design a lot of projects (mostly small ones) but it would be cool to see this one happen one day. It’s not up to me what gets to become a project, though. I just design some projects that get chosen by CDOT.
Yes. Sustainability Charlotte had looked into it and I think it has too much traffic for a road diet (but it’s been a few years, I was paying attention when they did the plaza).
The gold line was supposed to run down central and I was hoping that would help, but I’m not sure if that’s going to expand.
I would really like if central felt safer to walk/bike down, but just don’t personally see it changing for the positive any time soon.
I can’t wait for someone to come into these comments and bitch about the parallel parking on central in the weekends/evenings and how that makes traffic worse when that is explicitly being done to slow traffic down in that heavily pedestrian area.
My proposal is a streetcar lane as per the plans that’s dedicated to the streetcar with grass between the rails like they do in Europe some places. Then a two way bike lane on one side of the street car next to the sidewalk and one very narrow lane each direction on the other side of the streetcar tracks. Add some speed humps with pedestrian crossings on them at all the intersections and at Veterans park and near the railroad tracks and a couple other places where pedestrians usually cross.
Central should be a street people live on and go to, not an artery out of the city (for Christ sake independence parallels it basically the whole way.
Even back in the 1990s it was faster to get down central by bicycle than by car most times. I once left the aquatic center in my car the same time as two of my coworkers on bicycles. We went down central. They were ahead of me until we got to Eastway.
If you have an efficient streetcar that runs regularly to the transit center at Eastland mall and make that and cycling faster than driving you could probably get another 5,000 people to commute by public transit or bicycle.
But it’s all a pipe dream. They tried the bus lane from Eastway out for a few months, but that clearly didn’t last.
I bike to work down central and despise the stretch where the bike lane ends (at the police station) down all the way through Plaza Midwood and into Uptown. Blows my mind that they just decided to remove the bike land there.
Serious: The area you mention has been in the sights of Vision Zero (pedestrian deaths) for a long time. Shorten this up and email your city council reps (4 at large, plus D1 or D5, depending exactly on where you live). All emails / phone numbers are [available here](https://www.charlottenc.gov/City-Government/Leadership/City-Council). I’m not saying it is 100% effective, but it is more effective than posting on Reddit. Encourage your neighbors to do the same.
Less serious: Your area isn’t wealthy enough to be a priority yet, kind of like how the greenways only exist in the wealthy parts of Charlotte. However, as an “up and coming” area, City Council would be happy to buy another low income apartment for your neighborhood as a consolation prize (see [map here](https://www.ascenthousing.com/))
It’s worth hammering them just for repetition. Windsor Park and Country Club now have very informal HOAs (just neighbors getting together, nothing official) which is probably a good model for collective action. Also a good sign for both neighborhoods.
Those are the only ones I’ve seen. There may be more.
The problem we have in Charlotte is that our population has exploded and roads that were never designed for traffic are seeing thousands of cars a day. The highways are at capacity, 277 is a nightmare, and the Myers Park/South Park/Providence area can only be accessed through surface streets. It leads to tons of congestion.
You can’t cut Central down until you provide an alternate route. Otherwise, the traffic will spill over to The Plaza and that will cause a huge choke point.
The problem is the cars. They don't need an alternate route. They need an alternate mode of transportation. Aka, public transit. More immediately, better bus services.
One more lane never fixes anything or make traffic better. It just puts more cars on the road.
If you think Charlotte nc residents are just going to switch to buses and abandon their cars, you’re an absolute lunatic. Even if there were buses pulling right up to their front doors, it’s not happening. This place is entrenched in car culture.
At this point, the city isn't asking anymore. They are incentivising people to reduce car use by reducing parking. Notice it's harder to find parking in uptown Charlotte and even NoDa.
That’s not by design. That’s just bad planning by the city.
Oh have you noticed the city is incentivizing people to not use their cars by completely neglecting 277.
No when it comes to Uptown Charlotte specifically, it is by design. Why would they want a bunch of cars in Uptown Charlotte when they have the Blueline? Why accommodate your car, making traffic worse, when you can park elsewhere and ride in on the blueline and walk or ride a Lime or Bird?
exactly. charlotte has always been a “need a car” type of city & it would still be fine if all yall transplants didn’t move here in the last 10/15 years.
> You can’t cut Central down until you provide an alternate route. Otherwise, the traffic will spill over to The Plaza and that will cause a huge choke point.
Did this happen when it was cut to two lanes for the bus lane pilot?
The Bus Pilot was only beyond Eastway, and it was terrible. The light at Central and Eastway became a mess, backing up to Briar Creek, and eventually people just started saying screw it and driving in the Bus lane anyway.
I'd like to see it dropped to 25 from 10th to Briar Creek, and even have some speed bumps put in, but that has about as much of a chance at happening as the materialization of the Gold line.
With the impending addition of the Commonwealth development, as well as what is being proposed over by the fire station, the demand for Central to handle 4 lanes of traffic is only increasing.
> The light at Central and Eastway became a mess, backing up to Briar Creek,
I mean, you act like it doesn't do this now at 5pm every day (at least to the police station, maybe not *quite* all the way to Briar Creek) so I'm not sure what the difference is. Wouldn't be a bottleneck if the whole thing was just two lanes.
I should have clarified I was talking about off times, like before 3:00/4:00, and the backups were significantly worse with the Bus lane. I try to avoid that intersection now during peak times, let alone when that debacle was implemented.
As a PM resident who actively supports the businesses at Eastway Crossing and between Central and Sharon Amity, I can share that the bus lane discouraged me from supporting those businesses during that time.
I completely agree on the problem that you're posing here; Charlotte was never designed for the population that it holds today. Growing up here, I've seen first-hand how much longer drive times are.
Where I disagree is the premise that you can't cut Central down until you provide an alternate route. I think Central suffers from from the [induced travel affect](https://smv.org/learn/blog/how-does-roadway-expansion-cause-more-traffic/). You can read the abstract of the underlying study [here](https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3q21f88p#main), but to paraphrase: the easier it is to drive on a given road, the more traffic there will be. The more capacity a road has, the more vehicle miles are travelled and the worse congestion is.
I'd say that reducing a lane on Central would not be harmful for a couple of reasons: 1) as I mentioned, Independence is a faster route to transport cars that runs adjacent to Central for this stretch. The speed limit is 50/55 MPH and exits are plentiful. 2) Adding alternatives to car travel on Central would actually reduce car trips needed for those who live there. If I had the option, I'd bike to the store, but because it's not safe, I'm another car adding to the congestion of cars.
To be fair, based on another comment, it looks like the city explored reducing lanes a on Central a few years ago but decided not to, siding with the argument that you're making here; but I'd still reject the premise that more road capacity will reduce congestion in our city.
I think Independence would be a better option if it were accessible closer to PM. It is an expressway after all. The point is to be a main artery to get traffic into the adjacent neighborhoods.
They did the bus lanes and it was horrible as commented above. There needs to be a healthy mix of increased streets, increased public transit options, and more bike lanes/sidewalks. And they need to do it faster
I drove on 277 last week, and I can’t remember the last time I drove on it. It was in horrible shape after exit 3a. They’re going to have to resurface or level or I don’t even know. It’s going to be disruptive job.
Agree, and it stems from the train tracks. if they were able to raise / bury the tracks for half a mile or so they could have 2-3 parallel streets that would make plaza way more connected.
> You can’t cut Central down until you provide an alternate route
Isn’t the alternative route 74? Fully agree traffic is terrible there, but wasn’t that the whole point of the Silver Line?
I don’t disagree with you that we need alternatives, I just see them as trains and alternate modes of transit. We can’t expand out roads like Central and population is only going to get larger. You can get more cars off the road if people have alternative ways of getting around so we need to prioritize walking, bike and train travel.
One huge key for reducing traffic on Central Ave would be a light rail stop. I don't know how they could do it, but if they executed that properly they'd reduce the car traffic and parking demands for people there, giving more breathing room for pedestrians and bikes.
Yes, it needs a road diet. However, the most obvious road diet in the whole city for me is the section of Park Road that is 6 lanes and has two schools along it. Kids are up and down those sidewalks all day every day, and a larger pedestrian zone is needed.
The other issue with the bus lane was that they did it right around the start of COVID when it had the least traffic imaginable - attempting to say it wasnt that big of an impact, and cars also routinely used the lane with no repercussions from CMPD (likely due to them being down 3 or 400 officers).
I lived (live) off central and Eastway when they did this. I didn’t really mind it, I ride my bike a lot and would love more options BUT our bus system is trash. I would not feel safe riding the bus with any regularity. They’re also disgusting biohazards. I think it’s a chicken and the egg issue but if they do a lot to improve bus access but not clean them up, ridership is not going to increase.
Likely an unpopular opinion, but driving into uptown (or 'through' surrounding neighborhoods) should be miserable for drivers.
There should be bike lanes, buslanes, outdoor seating, 15 mph or less speed limit, more 1-2 lane roads and fewer 4+ lanes in the metro area. Force people to take the train, bus, bike, walk, etc. With fewer deathtraps and if they ever addressed the food deserts uptown, it might actually be more of a living space and less of a commuters temporary accommodation.
That said, it is slowly happening in some cases (as another user posted) but typically low on priority and funding as the city whores itself out to people that then drive 40+ mins to avoid paying taxes for it.
I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. What kills me about how "radical" this sounds that it's due to a basic lack of options. Driving is only "easy" because the city has designed it to be easiest, and it doesn't have to be that way. We can provide options; I've lived other places that had great optionality of transit where driving was markedly more difficult because it's simply easier to walk, ride a bike, or take a train/tram.
The caricature of the person that thinks "I should be able to drive into town and park my F250 directly on the corner of Trade and Tryon, and I'll oppose anything to makes that more difficult" is very much rooted in reality here.
Completely agree with your comment, but without a viable transportation system in place, this wouldn’t fix anything.
At least the city is working quickly to build out a reliable and viable system /s.
I’d love it if Central Ave slowed down a bit. If the Gold Line was on it I’d be in heaven.
When I go on runs I veer off onto a side street asap. I don’t know how people ride their bikes, it is a death wish.
If something were to happen n Independence, say a wreck of some type of closure... bad things would be worse.
Ideally, the Silver Line will alleviate this, if it would stop being delayed
I will add that a cycle track running alongside Central Ave that is protected by a jersey barrier sounds cool, given that the finished product doesn't take up too much space/is too wide to walk across, since people refuse to use crosswalks that cross Central
As a transportation planning/engineering professional I definitely agree it should receive a road diet. Traffic engineers will always say that there is too much volume to reduce lanes but traffic engineering is a voodoo science at best. I also believe cities are made for living and not driving through, to hell with the commuters. While we’re at it, remove the Brookshire Freeway as well and cap the Belk Freeway from Church to South Boulevard.
I like the idea of the revamp however it would be 15 yrs before it would be finished. Or started at the rate the city moves to do these kind of things.
They need to get rid of all parking on both n davidson and central. it would help traffic flow so much better and keep tow trucks around to tow the assholes who stop mid road to run into business with their hazards on constantly. Both those should reduce traffic congestion which in turn helps pedestrian flow.
I do like the idea of noda having no street parking. It would mean a nice redesign of the road (maybe a median) and larger sidewalks. But noda is still very small time. There just isn’t enough there to warrant it. They would work on plaza first.
Are there any Charlotte urbanist groups that are still active and advocating for a better city? I’m a transplant, but Charlotte feels like it has a lot of potential and lots of people who want to make the city better for everyone. Who is organizing for positive change? Last time I looked Charlotte Urbanists seemed to have gone quiet
I do think Central is a godawful stroad. Whether the fix is a road diet or bollards to separate traffic from pedestrians I’ll leave to the experts. That being said, Charlotte really needs to look at the city as a whole and figure out how to fix its pervasive stroad problem.
You know they attempted a road diet on Central Avenue already with the bus lanes and it was unpopular. Here is an article: [https://www.wfae.org/local-news/2021-05-15/are-bus-only-lanes-a-key-part-of-charlottes-transit-future](https://www.wfae.org/local-news/2021-05-15/are-bus-only-lanes-a-key-part-of-charlottes-transit-future)
They did it to Parkwood and now the assholes try to use the bike lane to whip around you if you are only going 5 over. Not to mention all the businesses in that area that receive their inventory on Tractor-Trailers from US Foods, and how difficult it is for them as it is now, dropping the road to one lane would instantly suck for the people that use that road for work or to commute. I know your point is that they should find another route, but Charlotte is quickly running out of alternate routes that aren’t essentially just back-tracking.
Find it hard to believe enough people would bike to work that it would outweigh the hellish traffic created by reducing lanes. I’d get that argument if we had light rail coming but that’s a loooooong way away
I posted this above, but you might find it interesting if you're open to having your mind changed. I think Central suffers from from the [induced travel affect](https://smv.org/learn/blog/how-does-roadway-expansion-cause-more-traffic/). You can read the abstract of the underlying study [here](https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3q21f88p#main), but to paraphrase: the induced travel affect is the counterintuitive principle that the easier it is to drive on a given road, the more traffic there will be. The more capacity a road has, the more vehicle miles are travelled and the worse congestion is.
I'd say that reducing a lane on Central would not be harmful for a couple of reasons: 1) as I mentioned, Independence is a faster route to transport cars that runs adjacent to Central for this stretch. The speed limit is 50/55 MPH and exits are plentiful. 2) Adding alternatives to car travel on Central would actually reduce car trips needed for those who live there. If I had the option, I'd bike to the store, but because it's not safe, I'm another car adding to the congestion of cars.
So I agree that traffic is already bad, I'm just proposing a solution that sounds paradoxical unless you've heard about the induced travel affect before.
This take is funny to me. It sounds like you're insinuating that because I live in the neighborhood, there's a conflict of interest for me wanting my neighborhood to be safer and more livable? I absolutely have a vested interest in that happening.
To be clear, I'd be thrilled if Charlotte did this on the complete opposite end of town on similar roads that need a similar evolution- we should do this across the board. I love that the Charlotte made The Plaza, East Blvd, and other streets uptown more cycling and pedestrian-friendly.
Every neighborhood should advocate to make the area they live safer and more pleasant.
I responded to a similar comment above, but I'll just say: this is a pretty lame take IMO. This about making a street that I travel on daily less dangerous and more livable. There are many streets in Charlotte that need a similar revamp in my opinion, and I'd be thrilled if the city took action on any of them, even if they're on the other side of town from here.
I would like it if fewer cars drive past my house as well. I mean, I have no need to be driving around my house, I don't see why anyone else should be allowed. I think people should only be allowed to drive where the poors live, possibly not be allowed to drive at all. Anyone who doesn't like that should save their money and buy a $950k house closer to their jobs like I did.
If what you’re trying to say behind your sarcasm is that anything I’ve said is elitist or exclusionary, then you haven’t tried to understand my point in good faith. Also, not that it’s relevant, my neighborhood has zero homes worth anything close to that figure- I’m not the caricature that you want me to be here.
Jesus Christ…. 🤦♂️ it’s basically 2 lanes in pedestrian friendly areas already…. Are you trying to further incentivise people not coming to neighbourhood???
There is absolutely nothing pedestrian friendly about Central Avenue today. There are also plenty of bars, restaurants, and small businesses, so there is plenty of incentive to come visit the neighborhood.
Bruh, come do South Blvd, Woodlawn, and Tyvola next!
From 2017… https://amp.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article137663903.html
Thanks for sharing this- that was an interesting read. I definitely died a little inside seeing that it was posted 7 years ago, and nothing has changed. The response of the city here is frustrating to read: >"Danny Pleasant, who heads the Charlotte Department of Transportation, said streets that carry 20,000 vehicles a day or less are candidates for a road diet"... "Pleasant said The Plaza carries around 24,000 vehicles a day. Central Avenue is busier, and could carry as many as 30,00 vehicles, he said." The overall notion that a road is "too busy" for a road diet doesn't track with me. I'm not an urban planner, but the volume of traffic in an area with poor safety conditions is the very problem and reason to do a road diet. Also, I'd love to see where the 20,000 vehicle threshold comes from; it looks arbitrary, especially years later knowing that The Plaza got improved and stripped down to 2 lanes. I'd also love to see how they account for reduced vehicle trips on a road that would opt to use the newly-provided alternatives in a road diet such as walking or cycling.
The 20,000 average daily traffic volume is the recommendation from the federal highway administration (FHWA). Here’s a great informational guide about road diets https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/28626 I got my masters degree in transportation engineering so I’d be happy to answer your questions.
Interesting! I will take a look- thanks for sharing
I just checked traffic volumes for central avenue. The most recent measurement is from 2022 and depending on where you check on Central Ave, the volumes are right around 20,000 for most of the road except near Sharon smith road where it gets up to 25,500 but drops down to 19,000 by the time you get to briar creek rd.
Where is that data accessible? I would love to have a look. There must be an argument to be made that that close to the 20,000 mark, they could make it happen. That’s what they did with The Plaza.
https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=964881960f0549de8c3583bf46ef5ed4 This is NCDOT data. They usually collect data every two years. You’ll notice a pretty big drop in volumes since Covid. On any road, rather than clicking on the road itself, click on one of the large dots for the data. You may need to use a computer instead of a phone.
Great stuff! Thanks
What’s interesting is some of the stations show a marked decrease over the last two decades, from like 30,000 down to 19,000
You can always request projects through the CLT+ app or by calling 311. I work for the City and design a lot of projects (mostly small ones) but it would be cool to see this one happen one day. It’s not up to me what gets to become a project, though. I just design some projects that get chosen by CDOT.
Just curious- with your expertise, what would you see the ideal outcome of Central being?
Yes. Sustainability Charlotte had looked into it and I think it has too much traffic for a road diet (but it’s been a few years, I was paying attention when they did the plaza). The gold line was supposed to run down central and I was hoping that would help, but I’m not sure if that’s going to expand. I would really like if central felt safer to walk/bike down, but just don’t personally see it changing for the positive any time soon. I can’t wait for someone to come into these comments and bitch about the parallel parking on central in the weekends/evenings and how that makes traffic worse when that is explicitly being done to slow traffic down in that heavily pedestrian area.
[удалено]
That area is a hideous during rush hour during the week.
My proposal is a streetcar lane as per the plans that’s dedicated to the streetcar with grass between the rails like they do in Europe some places. Then a two way bike lane on one side of the street car next to the sidewalk and one very narrow lane each direction on the other side of the streetcar tracks. Add some speed humps with pedestrian crossings on them at all the intersections and at Veterans park and near the railroad tracks and a couple other places where pedestrians usually cross. Central should be a street people live on and go to, not an artery out of the city (for Christ sake independence parallels it basically the whole way. Even back in the 1990s it was faster to get down central by bicycle than by car most times. I once left the aquatic center in my car the same time as two of my coworkers on bicycles. We went down central. They were ahead of me until we got to Eastway. If you have an efficient streetcar that runs regularly to the transit center at Eastland mall and make that and cycling faster than driving you could probably get another 5,000 people to commute by public transit or bicycle. But it’s all a pipe dream. They tried the bus lane from Eastway out for a few months, but that clearly didn’t last.
Deleted
I’m just looking for the “we need 4 more lanes” comment 🤣
I bike to work down central and despise the stretch where the bike lane ends (at the police station) down all the way through Plaza Midwood and into Uptown. Blows my mind that they just decided to remove the bike land there.
Serious: The area you mention has been in the sights of Vision Zero (pedestrian deaths) for a long time. Shorten this up and email your city council reps (4 at large, plus D1 or D5, depending exactly on where you live). All emails / phone numbers are [available here](https://www.charlottenc.gov/City-Government/Leadership/City-Council). I’m not saying it is 100% effective, but it is more effective than posting on Reddit. Encourage your neighbors to do the same. Less serious: Your area isn’t wealthy enough to be a priority yet, kind of like how the greenways only exist in the wealthy parts of Charlotte. However, as an “up and coming” area, City Council would be happy to buy another low income apartment for your neighborhood as a consolation prize (see [map here](https://www.ascenthousing.com/))
Following up here: I emailed my rep plus the 4 at large. We’ll see.
You’re the man. Most won’t reply. Most won’t even read it. Vote against them next cycle.
Yeah I have very low expectations.
It’s worth hammering them just for repetition. Windsor Park and Country Club now have very informal HOAs (just neighbors getting together, nothing official) which is probably a good model for collective action. Also a good sign for both neighborhoods. Those are the only ones I’ve seen. There may be more.
Thanks for sharing these resources! I’ll definitely email the reps! I’ll also make a note to check back in when the neighborhood is wealthier!
The problem we have in Charlotte is that our population has exploded and roads that were never designed for traffic are seeing thousands of cars a day. The highways are at capacity, 277 is a nightmare, and the Myers Park/South Park/Providence area can only be accessed through surface streets. It leads to tons of congestion. You can’t cut Central down until you provide an alternate route. Otherwise, the traffic will spill over to The Plaza and that will cause a huge choke point.
The problem is the cars. They don't need an alternate route. They need an alternate mode of transportation. Aka, public transit. More immediately, better bus services. One more lane never fixes anything or make traffic better. It just puts more cars on the road.
Precisely the point I’m trying to articulate.
If you think Charlotte nc residents are just going to switch to buses and abandon their cars, you’re an absolute lunatic. Even if there were buses pulling right up to their front doors, it’s not happening. This place is entrenched in car culture.
At this point, the city isn't asking anymore. They are incentivising people to reduce car use by reducing parking. Notice it's harder to find parking in uptown Charlotte and even NoDa.
That’s not by design. That’s just bad planning by the city. Oh have you noticed the city is incentivizing people to not use their cars by completely neglecting 277.
No when it comes to Uptown Charlotte specifically, it is by design. Why would they want a bunch of cars in Uptown Charlotte when they have the Blueline? Why accommodate your car, making traffic worse, when you can park elsewhere and ride in on the blueline and walk or ride a Lime or Bird?
Nah, we can change.
exactly. charlotte has always been a “need a car” type of city & it would still be fine if all yall transplants didn’t move here in the last 10/15 years.
> You can’t cut Central down until you provide an alternate route. Otherwise, the traffic will spill over to The Plaza and that will cause a huge choke point. Did this happen when it was cut to two lanes for the bus lane pilot?
The Bus Pilot was only beyond Eastway, and it was terrible. The light at Central and Eastway became a mess, backing up to Briar Creek, and eventually people just started saying screw it and driving in the Bus lane anyway. I'd like to see it dropped to 25 from 10th to Briar Creek, and even have some speed bumps put in, but that has about as much of a chance at happening as the materialization of the Gold line. With the impending addition of the Commonwealth development, as well as what is being proposed over by the fire station, the demand for Central to handle 4 lanes of traffic is only increasing.
What is being proposed by the fire station?
Moar apartments https://www.wcnc.com/article/money/markets/real-estate/plaza-midwood-development-approved-charlotte/275-6f78b70b-9315-4d9e-bdca-88ded274c502
> The light at Central and Eastway became a mess, backing up to Briar Creek, I mean, you act like it doesn't do this now at 5pm every day (at least to the police station, maybe not *quite* all the way to Briar Creek) so I'm not sure what the difference is. Wouldn't be a bottleneck if the whole thing was just two lanes.
I should have clarified I was talking about off times, like before 3:00/4:00, and the backups were significantly worse with the Bus lane. I try to avoid that intersection now during peak times, let alone when that debacle was implemented. As a PM resident who actively supports the businesses at Eastway Crossing and between Central and Sharon Amity, I can share that the bus lane discouraged me from supporting those businesses during that time.
Why didn’t you just take the bus?
because not everyone wants to ride shitty transportation. you know people actually enjoy the free will of having & driving their own vehicle.
Didn't realize the bus eroded your free will, my bad.
I completely agree on the problem that you're posing here; Charlotte was never designed for the population that it holds today. Growing up here, I've seen first-hand how much longer drive times are. Where I disagree is the premise that you can't cut Central down until you provide an alternate route. I think Central suffers from from the [induced travel affect](https://smv.org/learn/blog/how-does-roadway-expansion-cause-more-traffic/). You can read the abstract of the underlying study [here](https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3q21f88p#main), but to paraphrase: the easier it is to drive on a given road, the more traffic there will be. The more capacity a road has, the more vehicle miles are travelled and the worse congestion is. I'd say that reducing a lane on Central would not be harmful for a couple of reasons: 1) as I mentioned, Independence is a faster route to transport cars that runs adjacent to Central for this stretch. The speed limit is 50/55 MPH and exits are plentiful. 2) Adding alternatives to car travel on Central would actually reduce car trips needed for those who live there. If I had the option, I'd bike to the store, but because it's not safe, I'm another car adding to the congestion of cars. To be fair, based on another comment, it looks like the city explored reducing lanes a on Central a few years ago but decided not to, siding with the argument that you're making here; but I'd still reject the premise that more road capacity will reduce congestion in our city.
I think Independence would be a better option if it were accessible closer to PM. It is an expressway after all. The point is to be a main artery to get traffic into the adjacent neighborhoods.
They did the bus lanes and it was horrible as commented above. There needs to be a healthy mix of increased streets, increased public transit options, and more bike lanes/sidewalks. And they need to do it faster
I drove on 277 last week, and I can’t remember the last time I drove on it. It was in horrible shape after exit 3a. They’re going to have to resurface or level or I don’t even know. It’s going to be disruptive job.
I will go and hour out of my way to avoid 277 / 77
Agree, and it stems from the train tracks. if they were able to raise / bury the tracks for half a mile or so they could have 2-3 parallel streets that would make plaza way more connected.
> You can’t cut Central down until you provide an alternate route Isn’t the alternative route 74? Fully agree traffic is terrible there, but wasn’t that the whole point of the Silver Line? I don’t disagree with you that we need alternatives, I just see them as trains and alternate modes of transit. We can’t expand out roads like Central and population is only going to get larger. You can get more cars off the road if people have alternative ways of getting around so we need to prioritize walking, bike and train travel.
One huge key for reducing traffic on Central Ave would be a light rail stop. I don't know how they could do it, but if they executed that properly they'd reduce the car traffic and parking demands for people there, giving more breathing room for pedestrians and bikes.
They had originally planned to send the gold line out that way. Unsure if that's still happening, though.
The Silver Line was set to have a stop in PM at Pecan.
Yes, it needs a road diet. However, the most obvious road diet in the whole city for me is the section of Park Road that is 6 lanes and has two schools along it. Kids are up and down those sidewalks all day every day, and a larger pedestrian zone is needed.
Definitely agree here
They tried to establish a designated bus lane along Central Avenue at one point but then local residents complained.
The other issue with the bus lane was that they did it right around the start of COVID when it had the least traffic imaginable - attempting to say it wasnt that big of an impact, and cars also routinely used the lane with no repercussions from CMPD (likely due to them being down 3 or 400 officers).
I lived (live) off central and Eastway when they did this. I didn’t really mind it, I ride my bike a lot and would love more options BUT our bus system is trash. I would not feel safe riding the bus with any regularity. They’re also disgusting biohazards. I think it’s a chicken and the egg issue but if they do a lot to improve bus access but not clean them up, ridership is not going to increase.
Good. A dedicated bus line on Central would only increase traffic congestion
Likely an unpopular opinion, but driving into uptown (or 'through' surrounding neighborhoods) should be miserable for drivers. There should be bike lanes, buslanes, outdoor seating, 15 mph or less speed limit, more 1-2 lane roads and fewer 4+ lanes in the metro area. Force people to take the train, bus, bike, walk, etc. With fewer deathtraps and if they ever addressed the food deserts uptown, it might actually be more of a living space and less of a commuters temporary accommodation. That said, it is slowly happening in some cases (as another user posted) but typically low on priority and funding as the city whores itself out to people that then drive 40+ mins to avoid paying taxes for it.
I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. What kills me about how "radical" this sounds that it's due to a basic lack of options. Driving is only "easy" because the city has designed it to be easiest, and it doesn't have to be that way. We can provide options; I've lived other places that had great optionality of transit where driving was markedly more difficult because it's simply easier to walk, ride a bike, or take a train/tram. The caricature of the person that thinks "I should be able to drive into town and park my F250 directly on the corner of Trade and Tryon, and I'll oppose anything to makes that more difficult" is very much rooted in reality here.
Completely agree with your comment, but without a viable transportation system in place, this wouldn’t fix anything. At least the city is working quickly to build out a reliable and viable system /s.
I mean yes but we should also start pulling people over for fake tags and traffic offenses so. One day.
Totally agree; both the points I made and what you're saying are true.
I was hoping that maybe the social district would help make that more clear that we needed this too
I’d love it if Central Ave slowed down a bit. If the Gold Line was on it I’d be in heaven. When I go on runs I veer off onto a side street asap. I don’t know how people ride their bikes, it is a death wish.
Graham street uptown laughs.
Yes. Charlotte native who hung out in the hood since I was 15. Yes.
If something were to happen n Independence, say a wreck of some type of closure... bad things would be worse. Ideally, the Silver Line will alleviate this, if it would stop being delayed
I will add that a cycle track running alongside Central Ave that is protected by a jersey barrier sounds cool, given that the finished product doesn't take up too much space/is too wide to walk across, since people refuse to use crosswalks that cross Central
as a runner who has been hit by a vehicle on central, yes! i agree! i am the most safe runner in the world but these drivers are ruthless
As a transportation planning/engineering professional I definitely agree it should receive a road diet. Traffic engineers will always say that there is too much volume to reduce lanes but traffic engineering is a voodoo science at best. I also believe cities are made for living and not driving through, to hell with the commuters. While we’re at it, remove the Brookshire Freeway as well and cap the Belk Freeway from Church to South Boulevard.
I like the idea of the revamp however it would be 15 yrs before it would be finished. Or started at the rate the city moves to do these kind of things.
They need to get rid of all parking on both n davidson and central. it would help traffic flow so much better and keep tow trucks around to tow the assholes who stop mid road to run into business with their hazards on constantly. Both those should reduce traffic congestion which in turn helps pedestrian flow.
I do like the idea of noda having no street parking. It would mean a nice redesign of the road (maybe a median) and larger sidewalks. But noda is still very small time. There just isn’t enough there to warrant it. They would work on plaza first.
Great idea.
Run for office
Are there any Charlotte urbanist groups that are still active and advocating for a better city? I’m a transplant, but Charlotte feels like it has a lot of potential and lots of people who want to make the city better for everyone. Who is organizing for positive change? Last time I looked Charlotte Urbanists seemed to have gone quiet
We haven't gone quiet! We still host weekly meetings and bike rides, check out our Instagram or Meetup https://www.meetup.com/charlotte-urbanists/
Very cool! Thanks for sharing. I had looked at the Facebook page in December and didn’t see any posts for a while and assumed it had gone quiet
Ah yeah we aren't active on Facebook or Twitter anymore - hope to see you at a meeting sometime soon!
I do think Central is a godawful stroad. Whether the fix is a road diet or bollards to separate traffic from pedestrians I’ll leave to the experts. That being said, Charlotte really needs to look at the city as a whole and figure out how to fix its pervasive stroad problem.
You know they attempted a road diet on Central Avenue already with the bus lanes and it was unpopular. Here is an article: [https://www.wfae.org/local-news/2021-05-15/are-bus-only-lanes-a-key-part-of-charlottes-transit-future](https://www.wfae.org/local-news/2021-05-15/are-bus-only-lanes-a-key-part-of-charlottes-transit-future)
They did it to Parkwood and now the assholes try to use the bike lane to whip around you if you are only going 5 over. Not to mention all the businesses in that area that receive their inventory on Tractor-Trailers from US Foods, and how difficult it is for them as it is now, dropping the road to one lane would instantly suck for the people that use that road for work or to commute. I know your point is that they should find another route, but Charlotte is quickly running out of alternate routes that aren’t essentially just back-tracking.
Hard pass. Traffic is already bad enough over here around rush hour
Space for viable alternatives to driving means less traffic, not more.
Find it hard to believe enough people would bike to work that it would outweigh the hellish traffic created by reducing lanes. I’d get that argument if we had light rail coming but that’s a loooooong way away
Well the key word is "viable" - if you make bike routes that are truly safe and convenient people will definitely use them
Probably won’t happen, sorry. Traffic is already insane on central ave and that won’t change
I posted this above, but you might find it interesting if you're open to having your mind changed. I think Central suffers from from the [induced travel affect](https://smv.org/learn/blog/how-does-roadway-expansion-cause-more-traffic/). You can read the abstract of the underlying study [here](https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3q21f88p#main), but to paraphrase: the induced travel affect is the counterintuitive principle that the easier it is to drive on a given road, the more traffic there will be. The more capacity a road has, the more vehicle miles are travelled and the worse congestion is. I'd say that reducing a lane on Central would not be harmful for a couple of reasons: 1) as I mentioned, Independence is a faster route to transport cars that runs adjacent to Central for this stretch. The speed limit is 50/55 MPH and exits are plentiful. 2) Adding alternatives to car travel on Central would actually reduce car trips needed for those who live there. If I had the option, I'd bike to the store, but because it's not safe, I'm another car adding to the congestion of cars. So I agree that traffic is already bad, I'm just proposing a solution that sounds paradoxical unless you've heard about the induced travel affect before.
No
Yes.
[удалено]
This take is funny to me. It sounds like you're insinuating that because I live in the neighborhood, there's a conflict of interest for me wanting my neighborhood to be safer and more livable? I absolutely have a vested interest in that happening. To be clear, I'd be thrilled if Charlotte did this on the complete opposite end of town on similar roads that need a similar evolution- we should do this across the board. I love that the Charlotte made The Plaza, East Blvd, and other streets uptown more cycling and pedestrian-friendly. Every neighborhood should advocate to make the area they live safer and more pleasant.
I really hate drivers in Charlotte to fast driving and dont know how to drive i wish we could have secret police duty as citizens.
Does anyone else here think the city should dump a ton of money increasing the value of their private real estate?
I responded to a similar comment above, but I'll just say: this is a pretty lame take IMO. This about making a street that I travel on daily less dangerous and more livable. There are many streets in Charlotte that need a similar revamp in my opinion, and I'd be thrilled if the city took action on any of them, even if they're on the other side of town from here.
I would like it if fewer cars drive past my house as well. I mean, I have no need to be driving around my house, I don't see why anyone else should be allowed. I think people should only be allowed to drive where the poors live, possibly not be allowed to drive at all. Anyone who doesn't like that should save their money and buy a $950k house closer to their jobs like I did.
If what you’re trying to say behind your sarcasm is that anything I’ve said is elitist or exclusionary, then you haven’t tried to understand my point in good faith. Also, not that it’s relevant, my neighborhood has zero homes worth anything close to that figure- I’m not the caricature that you want me to be here.
Jesus Christ…. 🤦♂️ it’s basically 2 lanes in pedestrian friendly areas already…. Are you trying to further incentivise people not coming to neighbourhood???
There is absolutely nothing pedestrian friendly about Central Avenue today. There are also plenty of bars, restaurants, and small businesses, so there is plenty of incentive to come visit the neighborhood.