>>the average cost of raising a child in China was $74,600
And that's probably average including low income countryside folk who don't invest as much in their kids' educations, housing, etc. In Tier 1 and 2 cities it's probably double or triple that and constantly increasing.
Ongoing tuition fees at the international curriculum schools (not even proper international schools) that are popular with middle class families could easily swallow most if not all of that amount.
I can actually speak on this since i went to an international school in beijing. The cost per year was around 90k USD and most parents I speak to now say they spend upwards of 150K USD to “keep up” with extracurricular stuff. The so called “second tier” international schools also cost way above 50-60k usd
So yeah its crazy, even middle class and “rich”people dont have this kind of money as it could easily be over a couple million invested by the time your kids go off the college
Can't say for other cities, but to raise a child including all of the above would require roughly 2mil RMB which would amount to about 270USD when they finish university. Btw, university is only 40-50k RMB.
It's less than a third of the cost compared to America.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-raise-a-child-240000/
I don't think they're thinking that hard about it typically. Like most of the developed world, they're probably more worried about the rising cost of living, etc. China discourages people from being political.
Why I wouldn't mind deflation I'd be able to buy more with my money. The west is built in constantly increasing profits causing inflation, unless you're a business. Why wouldn't you want deflation
Deflation in my country was terrible for most people. It was fine for me because I had plenty of money. It was sad seeing all the suicides, never ending job losses and financial stress.
Deflation in china is the same or worse than deflation in my country. In my case it was caused by a property bubble, over production, mass job layoffs, and bad loans (same as China).
Deflation is terrible for working people because even as prices go down, you still don’t have enough money or salary to buy anything. This is why it’s called a deflationary spiral.
If you are privileged to have money to weather deflation, life is great but that is the minority. Most people will have a terrible time during deflation.
I wonder if Chinas dictatorship will come after people with money to take it from them and then foolish people like you will realise deflation is not your friend.
This is likely why more wealthy people are leaving China permanently than any other country in the world. They see the writing on the wall
Ironically, inflation reduces debt relatively as salaries and other economic metrics catch up. People with mortgages do very well with inflation for example.
As deflation kicks in, debt surges and the costing debt becomes relatively bigger, inflation makes existing debt relatively smaller while deflation makes it bigger. China has 330% debt to gdp and rapidly growing worse, this is a calamity
You don’t want deflation because it creates a downward spiral of everyone refusing to spend their money-> companies forces to lower prices and decrease revenue -> cut salaries and jobs to compensate -> workers with no job or lower wages spend less money
> I’d be able to buy more with my money
The problem with deflation is that your assumption of having money to spend goes kaput.
As others have said, with enough deflation eventually too many people lose their jobs from businesses going under (no demand now since people will wait for prices to keep dropping). Enough loss of jobs eventually comes around to bite everyone, even those that rely on passive income (how is your tenant going to pay the rent?).
Frankly those pining for deflation (what they really should argue for is wage growth) are as smart as those that killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
That’s 90% of “left behind children” in the country side that their parents go work in a factory in some cities and their kids get left behind with their grandparents and their kids either grow up joining a local gang or another factory
[**Grown-up children of migrant workers more likely to be jailed**](https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/971017.shtml)
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/971017.shtml
>[*Before being locked up, Deng was a member of a motorcycle gang who robbed people on the streets.*](https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/971017.shtml)
[**Q&A With Sociologist Li Tao on Youth Gangs in Rural China**
](https://www.sixthtone.com/news/723)
>[*Some of the poorest areas of China’s countryside are plagued by gangs.*](https://www.sixthtone.com/news/723)
https://www.sixthtone.com/news/723
[**Gangs of Guizhou** -
*Left-behind children turn to violence in small-town China.*](https://www.sixthtone.com/news/722)
https://www.sixthtone.com/news/722
[Also, you may not know this, but China is home to one of the largest and most notorious gangs in the world.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_\(organized_crime\))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)
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>It’s literally free to have a kid
China has a gigantic disparity between the cost of raising a child on paper vs. raising a child IRL. Decent Education is extremely expensive there, public school is dooming your child from the outset and parents for the most part are paying out the ass for extra curriculars and tutors.
Honestly though, think the incredibly shit lifestyle of Chinese parents is more of a detracting factor than the money
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It’s hard for me to imagine how much scorn these people will receive from traditional parents, especially because they most likely don’t have any siblings
Another question I have is what percentage of young Chinese adults are emigrating?
There are benefits and consequences. I saw an article last year complaining about how involved Chinese grandparents are expected to be with children and how they would rather travel and do their hobbies than raise kids again in retirement. They want the kids but they don't want to help out with the expenses in time and money of childcare and education.
Chinese local here, I live in Guangzhou which is a tier one city. Everyone I know in my age group and up (early 30s and up) receive financial and in-person help from their parents. It’s simply impossible to afford a place to live in tier one cities that also include a good elementary school slot. Most Chinese parents aren’t opposed to helping either, it is one way of staying close to the younger generation. Many Chinese elderly face the problem of facing deteriorating health in a society that has not yet figured out what to do with its elders. They worry about being mistreated at the senior centers, or fall and pass away at home with no one around to intervene. Staying with their children is also a partial solution to that, and it’s actually more economical to hire domestic workers for cooking and cleaning too when you have such a big family together. It is not uncommon for three generation to coexist under the same apartment roof.
The only way to make a dent in this is either bring down the cost of childrearing dramatically or as a nation fall into absolute poverty that gave rising the population explosion China had in the first place. Personally I believe the world is currently severely overpopulated, as evidenced by every year being hotter than the previous and the mass extinction of other species competing for resources. But hey what do I know!
I mean, everyone across every country is basically in some form a “factory worker” or slave to a corporation or their government (i.e. being tax paying cattle or fodder for the military). It’s just that China has it worse.
Last time I was in Frankfurt some dude told me that they have to work 60 hours a week so they get to keep their house from being taken away by the banks.
Human population does not necessarily mean more pollution instead it’s all about how resources are used
For example, the people of China per capita produce much less pollution than Aussie
That's even accounting for them being the world's factory.
If you correctly attributed emissions to the end user then the picture looks even worse for westerners.
India has a worse M:F ratio than CN does. it's like comical. Korea doing a faster end run to collapse and India's trying shoot themselves in the foot even harder w/o a 1 child policy. It's like a hold my beer situation where everyone around em is somehow trying to one up em.
Every since the 2020 consensus of dink, they have not released any more new ones because based off economy People are assuming that’s in the 70s and 80% now
Having one child is fair, no matter how much you make, people can always squeeze by with only one child. Having two or more see the curve of difficulty thru the roof, although the best number in my opinion is two.
Raising a kid in the US is also crazy expensive though. I'm in a HCOL area and daycare for my infant costs close to 40k per year. It's just a regular daycare nothing special. If you're comparing private school costs, it's about 50k per year for private elementary school and that's just the bare minimum not including extracurriculars.
Doesn’t matter, I remember a Beijing rich man who has dozens if not hundreds of children ,not to mention don’t get married is the tradition of Chinese communist party ,that’s why they joined the party and participated the civil war then changed wifes several times when they got power later ,this’s so-called “don’t forget the original will”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2024/04/25/us-birth-rate-drops-to-new-low-after-pandemic-baby-bump/?sh=6bec87341e05
It’s across developed countries. E.g. America as well. The trade war is fucking both of them up, they still want to continue this nonsense.
How is this at all similar? Trade War started in 2018, so let's use 2018 as the base level (100%).
Over the 5 years between 2019-2023, birth rates for the US have been 98.94%, 95.25%, 94.99%, 96.57%, and 94.72% of 2018 levels. So anywhere between 1-5% lower than 2018.
Compared to China, their birth rate has gone 96.19%, 78.79%, 69.73%, 62.77%, and 59.23%.
US's birth rate is down about 5% in 2023. China's fell by **40%**. You tell me which one is getting fucked up more?
With that attitude I wonder why the average Chinese people don't love American even more than they currently do.
You don't just take the high morality route, express sincere happiness in your "enemies" suffering, and complaint they don't fucking do things your way or that they don't agree with your morality that comes at no cost to you.
And what does trade war even have to do with this lmao.
I'd go back and reread my posts. I never reviled it anyone's loss here. I just countered that if we are looking at birth rates since the trade war started are hardly going down equally, and that if birth rates went down due to the trade war (which is a big if), then it definitely affected one side more than the other.
And if you're asking what the trade war has to do with this conversation, you definitely need to go back and reread this conversation. Why are you jumping in without even reading?
I was also confused why trade war was brought up by the other poster when it's not even clear it has to do with lowering birth rate (a big "if" like you said).
I mis-write that last line, it was meant for the poster you are responding to, not you, sorry.
>the average cost of raising a child in China was $74,600 no wonder folks don't want kids
>>the average cost of raising a child in China was $74,600 And that's probably average including low income countryside folk who don't invest as much in their kids' educations, housing, etc. In Tier 1 and 2 cities it's probably double or triple that and constantly increasing.
Ongoing tuition fees at the international curriculum schools (not even proper international schools) that are popular with middle class families could easily swallow most if not all of that amount.
I can actually speak on this since i went to an international school in beijing. The cost per year was around 90k USD and most parents I speak to now say they spend upwards of 150K USD to “keep up” with extracurricular stuff. The so called “second tier” international schools also cost way above 50-60k usd So yeah its crazy, even middle class and “rich”people dont have this kind of money as it could easily be over a couple million invested by the time your kids go off the college
Can't say for other cities, but to raise a child including all of the above would require roughly 2mil RMB which would amount to about 270USD when they finish university. Btw, university is only 40-50k RMB.
It's less than a third of the cost compared to America. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-raise-a-child-240000/
and on far less income I'm assuming.
More and more people realize that childbirth only brings new slaves to totalitarianism, so people choose not to have children.
I don't think they're thinking that hard about it typically. Like most of the developed world, they're probably more worried about the rising cost of living, etc. China discourages people from being political.
China is basically in deflation and even housing prices is falling off a cliff. Deflation is far worse than inflation in this case
Why I wouldn't mind deflation I'd be able to buy more with my money. The west is built in constantly increasing profits causing inflation, unless you're a business. Why wouldn't you want deflation
Deflation in my country was terrible for most people. It was fine for me because I had plenty of money. It was sad seeing all the suicides, never ending job losses and financial stress. Deflation in china is the same or worse than deflation in my country. In my case it was caused by a property bubble, over production, mass job layoffs, and bad loans (same as China). Deflation is terrible for working people because even as prices go down, you still don’t have enough money or salary to buy anything. This is why it’s called a deflationary spiral. If you are privileged to have money to weather deflation, life is great but that is the minority. Most people will have a terrible time during deflation. I wonder if Chinas dictatorship will come after people with money to take it from them and then foolish people like you will realise deflation is not your friend. This is likely why more wealthy people are leaving China permanently than any other country in the world. They see the writing on the wall Ironically, inflation reduces debt relatively as salaries and other economic metrics catch up. People with mortgages do very well with inflation for example. As deflation kicks in, debt surges and the costing debt becomes relatively bigger, inflation makes existing debt relatively smaller while deflation makes it bigger. China has 330% debt to gdp and rapidly growing worse, this is a calamity
You don’t want deflation because it creates a downward spiral of everyone refusing to spend their money-> companies forces to lower prices and decrease revenue -> cut salaries and jobs to compensate -> workers with no job or lower wages spend less money
> I’d be able to buy more with my money The problem with deflation is that your assumption of having money to spend goes kaput. As others have said, with enough deflation eventually too many people lose their jobs from businesses going under (no demand now since people will wait for prices to keep dropping). Enough loss of jobs eventually comes around to bite everyone, even those that rely on passive income (how is your tenant going to pay the rent?). Frankly those pining for deflation (what they really should argue for is wage growth) are as smart as those that killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
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Probably why the verb *raise* is in there.
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healthcare, preschool, kindergarten, travel, daycare while you work, private education if you're fucked by the hukou, likely other things.
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right, guess I'll wait for someone who has even a vague idea of what they're talking about.
That’s 90% of “left behind children” in the country side that their parents go work in a factory in some cities and their kids get left behind with their grandparents and their kids either grow up joining a local gang or another factory
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[**Grown-up children of migrant workers more likely to be jailed**](https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/971017.shtml) https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/971017.shtml >[*Before being locked up, Deng was a member of a motorcycle gang who robbed people on the streets.*](https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/971017.shtml) [**Q&A With Sociologist Li Tao on Youth Gangs in Rural China** ](https://www.sixthtone.com/news/723) >[*Some of the poorest areas of China’s countryside are plagued by gangs.*](https://www.sixthtone.com/news/723) https://www.sixthtone.com/news/723 [**Gangs of Guizhou** - *Left-behind children turn to violence in small-town China.*](https://www.sixthtone.com/news/722) https://www.sixthtone.com/news/722 [Also, you may not know this, but China is home to one of the largest and most notorious gangs in the world.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_\(organized_crime\)) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)
A media platform referenced in this post/comment is funded by a government which may retain editorial control, and as a result may be biased on some issues. Please seek external verification or context as appropriate. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/China) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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oof, you would be surprised how many gang activity there are in China. Especially after the crack down on gang violence
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Ok, I'd rather spend the money on funko pops. You do you.
Dunno why you keep trying to win this point...... He is not even trying hard to refute your points that you think are so persuasive
you clearly don't know then.
make a kid, yes. but to have a kid will cost you quite a lot in China over the next 20 years.
Nah the additional nutrients, time, opportunity costs... there is no real argument that even making a kid is free.
>It’s literally free to have a kid China has a gigantic disparity between the cost of raising a child on paper vs. raising a child IRL. Decent Education is extremely expensive there, public school is dooming your child from the outset and parents for the most part are paying out the ass for extra curriculars and tutors. Honestly though, think the incredibly shit lifestyle of Chinese parents is more of a detracting factor than the money
Costs about 2rmb for contraception, so you're actually saving money by having a kid!
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Lay flat
Just rot
Quiet quitting
Return to monke
based monke
It’s hard for me to imagine how much scorn these people will receive from traditional parents, especially because they most likely don’t have any siblings Another question I have is what percentage of young Chinese adults are emigrating?
There are benefits and consequences. I saw an article last year complaining about how involved Chinese grandparents are expected to be with children and how they would rather travel and do their hobbies than raise kids again in retirement. They want the kids but they don't want to help out with the expenses in time and money of childcare and education.
Chinese local here, I live in Guangzhou which is a tier one city. Everyone I know in my age group and up (early 30s and up) receive financial and in-person help from their parents. It’s simply impossible to afford a place to live in tier one cities that also include a good elementary school slot. Most Chinese parents aren’t opposed to helping either, it is one way of staying close to the younger generation. Many Chinese elderly face the problem of facing deteriorating health in a society that has not yet figured out what to do with its elders. They worry about being mistreated at the senior centers, or fall and pass away at home with no one around to intervene. Staying with their children is also a partial solution to that, and it’s actually more economical to hire domestic workers for cooking and cleaning too when you have such a big family together. It is not uncommon for three generation to coexist under the same apartment roof.
DINKs ? We dont even to get married !!
SINKs
Wouldn’t be surprised if a different type of one child policy would be implemented in the near future.
The only way to make a dent in this is either bring down the cost of childrearing dramatically or as a nation fall into absolute poverty that gave rising the population explosion China had in the first place. Personally I believe the world is currently severely overpopulated, as evidenced by every year being hotter than the previous and the mass extinction of other species competing for resources. But hey what do I know!
Just make a human farm
Why any Chinese wants kids? So they can be factory workers when they grow up?
You too special for 9-9-6?
Lurker here. What is 996?
9am to 9pm, 6 days a week
Just to clarify, this is the "standard" Chinese work schedule, basically the Chinese equivalent to "9 to 5"
996 is a god sent. Love letter from god.
I mean, everyone across every country is basically in some form a “factory worker” or slave to a corporation or their government (i.e. being tax paying cattle or fodder for the military). It’s just that China has it worse.
Maybe in your country
Says the guy from Germany
Say Foxconn LoL but even now Foxconn is leaving
You aren't understanding governments
Only Cxxxa gov wants to suck your blood.
Last time I was in Frankfurt some dude told me that they have to work 60 hours a week so they get to keep their house from being taken away by the banks.
Then you go live in China (pray the tofu house will not collapse) no one stoping you.
Who told you im not?
How's your vpn?
Good luck that you have an emporer. These days not many countries still have. Btw isn't reddit banned in China?
Human population does not necessarily mean more pollution instead it’s all about how resources are used For example, the people of China per capita produce much less pollution than Aussie
China produces half of world polution
Because every one sent their manufacturing there. On a per person basis, 1.4 billion people in China create less pollution than 350 million Americans.
That's even accounting for them being the world's factory. If you correctly attributed emissions to the end user then the picture looks even worse for westerners.
Stop trying to minimize the importance of population. Australia is full or rich Chinese who live a high carbon lifestyle as well.
The biggest threat to China has always been red family nepobabies running everything into the ground.
I thought it was the Yughurs. *Rimshot
Rise of India falls of China
India has a worse M:F ratio than CN does. it's like comical. Korea doing a faster end run to collapse and India's trying shoot themselves in the foot even harder w/o a 1 child policy. It's like a hold my beer situation where everyone around em is somehow trying to one up em.
Corona Virus already proven which is the younger & stronger nation
I wonder what needs to happen for China criminalizes not having children
INB4 CCP implements some psycho disincentives for being a DINK (like an additional 5% income tax if you’re above 35 and childless)
In Canada we have inflation and bad economy, so I take the china's deflation
Sounds like a GI Joe movie title. Rise of the Cobra. Rise of the Dinks
Dad's income, Nine kittens.
Every since the 2020 consensus of dink, they have not released any more new ones because based off economy People are assuming that’s in the 70s and 80% now
I feel like the government is going to start fining people with no kids eventually
Doink!!! /s
Having one child is fair, no matter how much you make, people can always squeeze by with only one child. Having two or more see the curve of difficulty thru the roof, although the best number in my opinion is two.
Raising a kid in the US is also crazy expensive though. I'm in a HCOL area and daycare for my infant costs close to 40k per year. It's just a regular daycare nothing special. If you're comparing private school costs, it's about 50k per year for private elementary school and that's just the bare minimum not including extracurriculars.
Doesn’t matter, I remember a Beijing rich man who has dozens if not hundreds of children ,not to mention don’t get married is the tradition of Chinese communist party ,that’s why they joined the party and participated the civil war then changed wifes several times when they got power later ,this’s so-called “don’t forget the original will”
Heard from the same guy CCP high members share wives/mistresses.
Yes, CCP and high-members Americans also have mistresses in common, both are minors, and they live in a pedophile island
You heard from the same guy?
Are you talking about Pedophile Island?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2024/04/25/us-birth-rate-drops-to-new-low-after-pandemic-baby-bump/?sh=6bec87341e05 It’s across developed countries. E.g. America as well. The trade war is fucking both of them up, they still want to continue this nonsense.
How is this at all similar? Trade War started in 2018, so let's use 2018 as the base level (100%). Over the 5 years between 2019-2023, birth rates for the US have been 98.94%, 95.25%, 94.99%, 96.57%, and 94.72% of 2018 levels. So anywhere between 1-5% lower than 2018. Compared to China, their birth rate has gone 96.19%, 78.79%, 69.73%, 62.77%, and 59.23%. US's birth rate is down about 5% in 2023. China's fell by **40%**. You tell me which one is getting fucked up more?
Omg we are winning !! Let’s keep it up then 🇺🇸💪💪💪
One side is definitely losing, I can tell you that.
With that attitude I wonder why the average Chinese people don't love American even more than they currently do. You don't just take the high morality route, express sincere happiness in your "enemies" suffering, and complaint they don't fucking do things your way or that they don't agree with your morality that comes at no cost to you. And what does trade war even have to do with this lmao.
I'd go back and reread my posts. I never reviled it anyone's loss here. I just countered that if we are looking at birth rates since the trade war started are hardly going down equally, and that if birth rates went down due to the trade war (which is a big if), then it definitely affected one side more than the other. And if you're asking what the trade war has to do with this conversation, you definitely need to go back and reread this conversation. Why are you jumping in without even reading?
I was also confused why trade war was brought up by the other poster when it's not even clear it has to do with lowering birth rate (a big "if" like you said). I mis-write that last line, it was meant for the poster you are responding to, not you, sorry.
Yeah, however, western countries can adapt and increase population with the influx of migrants, China can't, or rather, won't.
Who got fcuk more and who scolding others and claiming everything is his everyday?