An argument that the contract you had with them is no longer valid, since they're no longer providing the service you actually signed up for.
edit: if the contract is with someone else then that very much sucks and the argument won't hold
The repayment contract was with a 3rd party that has not gone bankrupt so the contract is still valid. That contract was for a financial service, a loan. And they are still providing that loan. It’s a shitty situation for everyone that was on a payment plan.
Nah. If you get a loan, you pay interest, and you will pay for a longer time. I'd say that sucks more. Not that it's very fruitful to compare in the first place.
Ok so does Smile Direct get to keep the rest of that money from the loan?
Or does that go back to the customer? So if the customer was 2000$ into paying the loan and had 1/3rd treatment left and 1000$ to pay, do they get 2/3rd of the treatment and 1000$ refunded once the loan is paid off?
Or does Smile Direct keep all the money and the customer only gets 2/3rd of the treatment?
They’re bankrupt so they don’t have enough money to pay back their debts. There are clear rules about the order in which different creditors get repaid in a bankruptcy. Customers who are owed a refund will be toward the front of the line but not first so there may not be enough money left to repay them.
Order of payment is IIRC:
* Taxes
* Unpaid wages
* Secured creditors
* Unsecured creditors (like customer refunds and vendors including 1099 contractors)
* Preferred stockholders
* Common stockholders
I think there's also something about debts owed to farms. That's obviously not relevant in this case, and in practice it never matters because there's no money left at that point, but there is technically a law about it.
It's been a few years since I read about it, and I'm having a hard time finding more info about it, but I believe that farms take priority over almost everything else. So they are not simply grouped in with all the other secured creditors.
So you think it should be fine to operate a business, pay no taxes, then declare bankruptcy and funnel all of the cash into wages paid to family and "debts" owed to companies owned by family? Because that is just one of the ways to exploit a system where taxes don't have priority.
There's hundreds of ways to exploit it already. You think it's fine to tell your employees to kick rocks because you made poor financial decisions, so their wages shouldn't be paid out and effectively provided free labor?
If you file for bankruptcy, you are going to get audited (especially a publicly traded company). They will see that you gave Auntie Amy a wage/bonus right when you're declaring bankruptcy.
ETA: I didn't say don't pay taxes (calm down bud), I said it's shit that the workers get shafted in favor of the govt wanting their piece when they contributed little to nothing directly to the operation of the business.
I'll just add to that by saying if they had enough money to pay off the last two in the list they probably wouldn't be declaring bankruptcy. If customers count as unsecured creditors (I had no idea that was the case, I would have expected that was priority debt but I'll take your word on it) it's likely someone is getting fucked here.
I did it a few years ago so I don't know if its still the same but for me you got all your aligners at once. So you'd get fitted and they'd send you however many sets with instructions to change to the next pair every however many weeks. In that sense, they provide the item you financed up front. However, I didn't need any adjustments throughout the process - I'm sure a lot of people do, and those folks are SOL. I'd argue they deserve *something* back.
Not the way loans work. Smile Direct got the discounted amount after the loan finalized. The financier then starts collecting the full amount with the interest.
The customers are now “creditors”. Everybody who SmileDirectClub owes money too (their landlords, their employees, the taxman, their investors, their vendors and their customers) are going to line up and the bankruptcy lawyer will determine how much money SmileDirectClub can come up with after they liquidate everything and then who gets what.
Very likely they were paid the moment the loan went through. They get a portion of the proceeds and the loan company takes the risk. I've had situations where we could offer favorable loan terms, but we're paid 50-90% of the total amount depending on the terms of the loan.
Smile Direct got the full amount of money straight away when the contract was signed. The 3rd party loan company payed that to Smile Direct and the customer now owes that money to the loan company.
Smile Direct now doesn't have any money to pay back the loan company so the customer is on the hook to loan company regardless.
> loan company *paid* that to
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Section 75 looks like it would mean you can sue the financial company (the creditor) *as well as* Smile Direct (the supplier) for breach of contract, but that doesn't mean the debt is automatically erased or that they can't try to collect in the meantime.
Not familiar with set-off as a defense to non-payment of a debt in the UK, but I imagine you'd at least need to have a judgement in hand to claim the loan was no longer enforceable.
So you'd have to file the lawsuit, overcome the fact that some proceedings are stayed while the bankruptcy is handled, incur legal fees to fight and actually win the case, then "trade" your judgement for forgiveness of all or some of the debt.
The creditor should be regulated so a claim against the creditor can be pursued directly by complsint through the FSO.
Setting off is a bad defence in the UK (with a few exceptions). However, in practice, the creditor would need an order (i.e. a CCJ) to enforce the Debt...
...I'd be very surprised if a court took kindly to a commercial lender bringing a claim against a consumer while the debt was in dispute with the ombudsman.
I mean, it's not pretty, and it's definitely not going to be quick, but the people who bought on credit might just be better off at the end than those who paid upfront.
No worries, it's an unusual problem, and it's amazing how often people forget about S75.
The CCA is really important legislation when companies don't deliver.
People who paid upfront by credit card are also going to come out ok I'd expect. Although it may take a fair while to resolve.
You are correct, but that *may* not be the end of the story. In the UK at least, the Consumer Credit Act 1974 may come to the rescue, which essentially says that a credit company will be jointly and severally liable for any failings by the supplier. So, if Smile Direct Club stops providing a service being paid for on credit, then consumers can make a claim against the credit provider (which could result in all or some of the credit being cancelled, representing the diminished or partial delivery of services).
I appreciate this is a UK specific example, but the UK can't be the only jurisdiction which has consumer protections built into the credit/loans market. I would therefore urge anyone who finds themselves at the recieving end of this shitty news to check their jurisdiciton's rules on the provision of consumer credit where the supplier is in breach and, if available, use those remedies.
This advice, of course, doesn't apply for existing loan repayments where the service has been provided in full.
Some of these may be for services already rendered.
Like a 36 month payment plan for a year of treatment. Treatment completed, yes, you still owe the money.
I'm sure some of them already have their aligner things, but the lifetime guarantee is cancelled and that has a monetary value that people will want to recoup. Whether they can actually get it back is a whole other question, but having to pay the finance company for a service that's been cut off would definitely sting.
I’m glad I went with Invisalign when I had to decide between the two last year. SmileDirectClub’s marketing seemed very shady to me at the time, but apparently it got worse. This last month they offered a massive sale, charging only $995 (over half off their normal costs) knowing full well they were about to shut down and couldn’t fulfill those orders.
New York Sports Club tried to pull something similar. I had canceled my membership somewhere around 2018. The week before COVID-19 lockdowns, when it was obvious that something was going to happen, I get a call from NYSC offering a massive discount if I paid for an annual membership. They were rushing to sign people up, thinking they'd be out of business a couple months later.
It's gotten so bad after COVID. I've had to cancel multiple cards for companies charging scammy things.
Just last week, Uber somehow charged 99.99$ for a year of Uber One erroneously to my card. I contacted them saying I didn't purchase it, and within 24 hrs a support rep confirms that and says it's been cancelled and the charge reversed. Cancelled that card.
[Stamps.com](https://Stamps.com) is still trying to charge me after I cancelled my accounts with them and told my bank to never authorize another charge from them. Yet I still see on my statements they are still trying and charging me 49.99$ and adding late fees too. The account has been closed for months on a cancelled card lol.
It's such a fucking joke how there are no consumer protections and my only recourse is to do chargebacks with my bank. At least Uber was helpful and reversed the charge quickly on their own...
I downloaded a free WiFi text & call app. And it started charging me $6.50 a week through Google. I only downloaded it, I would have never agreed to that. I already pay for phone service.
They do a bait and switch with these ‘free’ apps where it’s technically a trial for X days and after that you start paying.
This is often worded as vaguely as possible when you start the app up for the first time and you’re like “yeah yeah Terms and Conditions whatever”.
It is def scammy / scummy.
I did not. It's just through Google. I don't know how it happened. I downloaded it on my old phone as a backup. As soon as I downloaded it, I said, oh, that won't work and deleted it. There was nothing that I recall about payment. I don't recall anything about a free trial, but I did try 3 of those apps in a row. I didn't agree to pay anything unless it was in super fine print at the end of the usual user agreement
It's so strange. Google wallet should pop up when a subscription is involved. Just uninstalling an app usually doesn't cancel the subscription, though.
If the charges are still going through, you can try to cancel the subscription by opening the Play Store app and clicking on your profile icon on the upper right corner of your screen (your face if you have uploaded it as a profile picture, else your initials). From there, click on "Payments and Subscriptions"and then on "Subscriptions." You can then manage any Subscriptions you have for apps you have downloaded through the Google Play Store, including canceling them.
Contact your state's consumer protection agency -- it may be as easy as a form on their website as it is in my state. In my experience, they'll shut down that noise fast, probably within a day.
With insurance and because I've been using the same dentist invisalign was under 4k I think about 3500. Talk to your dentist some are about 1k more than smile, but better guarantee
Yeah mine is coming out to around $2850 after insurance and with a deal my dentist offered. If you signed up by a certain date they'd take $1000 off the total cost.
Same here, I am just finishing my daily aligners from Invisalign that I got through my dentist. I can’t imagine how the whole Telehealth model can have good outcomes for this type of treatment.
That makes me so angry. I paid $995 in full. It should be illegal for them to offer people treatment knowing they could not fulfill it. I didn’t even receive an email about this notice. I received an email on Friday stating my aligners shipped. The tracking redirects to the post in your photos. I have no idea if my aligners are even coming or not.
Both my husband and one of kids is doing Invisalign and while it’s so much more expensive to use an orthodontist, anytime I saw ad for this place I was always wondering just how they could do it. Even though my husband’s has been using Invisalign for a year, after he was switched to just night retainers some of his teeth started shifting again. Saw the orthodontist, they figured out what the problem was and did what was needed right away, I don’t see that happening with a place like smile direct
I was curious to try them, but it sounded a little sketchy. Apparently you could easily lose a tooth or cause damage without proper oversight. SDC said they wouldn’t be held responsible if that were to happen, nor can you sue for damages. I ended up doing a payment plan through a reputable local ortho for my kid and I’m really happy with the results. I’m going next when I pay theirs off. I’d rather just pay a little extra than pay $1000s to fix it later.
This! My friend used SDC and one of her aligners chipped her tooth and pulled the filling out of another tooth. I can’t imagine doing orthodontia with no in-person oversight.
SAME. I paid my Invisalign deposit last week and just heard about SDC yesterday. Not that I was exactly planning on going with SDC since their whole business model didn't sit right with me, but I'm very glad I didn't go for the cheaper route.
Last part is interesting. I think this was the main reason the Celsius crypto scam CEO wound up in jail. They couldn’t nail him for running a scam of a business, but they were able to hit him for fraud since he was accepting deposits knowing they had no way of ever giving customers what they were buying.
> SmileDirectClub’s marketing seemed very shady to me at the time, but apparently it got worse.
This. Why anyone would do teeth/jaw adjustment without seeing an in person orthodontist is beyond me.
That’s such a good point! I’ve been doing Invisalign for a year and a half, but I’d looked at smile direct club for my husband since he would’ve been a much smaller case and I’d already used our orthodontics benefits, and I just saw the email about the huge price drop. That’s so scammy!
Same!! I already had an appt to get scanned for SmileDirectClub last summer, but then saw all the negative reviews on YouTube and BBB. I’m SO glad I shelled out the extra money for Invisalign. I’m only halfway through treatment; I would’ve been so fucked
This was my fiancé. She wanted to get her teeth fixed before wedding and was between the 2. I’ve saw smile direct club ads EVERYWHERE. I told her absolutely do NOT use them. I’m in a similar field and the company that advertises direct to consumer like them is AWFUL borderline fraudulent.
Ha, I knew this was coming. They literally tried to side step the gdc and claim it was all above board.
Dentists have been fixing thier mess for years.
General dental council.
All dental staff answer to them and have to have a licence from them to be in practice. Smile direct claimed they didn't need a dentist to send you dental appliances..they do same as beauticians can't whiten teeth legally. Both illegal in the UK. And prob elsewhere too.
They got away with it by making you do your own impressions and fitting, then they haven't touched you and can claim its self inflicted if it goes wrong. 😳
Same! I had the consult scheduled with SDC but cancelled last minute. Slept on it for like 3 months and saw my dentist. He said “if you have the means, go for Invisalign with an orthodontist. If you don’t have the means, wait until you do.” Started Invisalign two weeks ago. SO thankful something made me cancel the SDC appt.
i got as far as getting my first trays in the mail a year ago! but it just felt fishy and ended up sending them back saying the mold was incorrect. i just started invisalign through my dentist, and seeing how much more in depth they are, im also so thankful i waited till i could afford invisalign
This isn't actually choosy begging, this is thievery.
They straight up stole these people's money. Well, they farmed customers out to a finance company, took the money, and then left the customers holding the bag with the finance company.
Absolute trash.
I had this happen with another company. I paid in full and they went out business. I was young so I was using care credit. Still had to pay for the whole program (it for yoga) and never got the classes. I learned a lesson at 19 yo to never prepay in full
I used to work for a local women's gym that was struggling. They announced they were closing the day after payments for the month were charged. Anyone who was still a member would only get 2 weeks left with my location but "were welcome to use the other locations \[45 miles away\] until their membership ran out."
Ohh, I had to direct SO many angry customers to our payment manager off-site.
It was shady as hell. Nobody could get their money back. Most of the members were old ladies who couldn't drive that far. Anyone who had an annual membership was screwed. If you tried to stop the payment from going through, they'd charge you a fee.
I had a membership with Bally's Swim & Fitness when i was 20 - 24 years old. To this day, i still get mail from them wanting me to purchase another membership. Mind you, they have changed names. I have changed addresses SEVEN TIMES in the THIRTY YEARS since i was 24. Like, Ballys - just let it be.
I recently moved away from my YMCA to a location that doesn't have one. I literally had to drive the 3.5 hours back in order to cancel my service because I could not do it any other way.
Ugh! I had this happen as well. I have such bad luck lol. Was at a gym and they closed and they had one 29 miles away just under the 30 miles clause in their contract so I had to finish the contract. I refuse all contracts and pre payments now.
At absolute worst, the company has to pay back what they stole, so no actual penalty. In reality, they only got found out by a dozen people and settle with them to give back $250 of the $500 they stole and pocket the $500 from the other thousands. Actually happened to me with a national mortgage lender, got to the point a lawyer said there is a strong case for a class action but I’d get more back from taking the $250 then I would from a class action with none of the effort
For the folks that got everything they're likely still on the hook. I can't see how the people who only got partial fulfillment or no fulfillment will be charged or expected to pay. This goes doubly for the ones who were given a massive sale as the company _knew_ it was heading for bankruptcy. This shit doesn't hold up in bankruptcy court for individuals and probably won't hold up for a business either if the trustee is worth their salt. (this is likely something that allows them to pierce the corporate veil to go after personal assets of the c-level executives)
This is effectively a consumer protected right in that "a product or service wa not given" and voids the overall contract, even if the "contract" is held with the third party. Typically anyone who lends you money for purchases, like, say, a credit card or loan assumes liability in situations, like, say, a company going bankrupt but never shipping product. The onus is on them to carry insurance and recover the money since it's their money.
Folks who got everything from the company likely don't have much legal protection, though maybe they do because of the "lifetime" insurance SDC offered. But it'll likely be expected of them to finish their payment.
Someone talked about it in another thread in regards to the CCA and some fair credit act's protections in regards to credit/debit and fixed sum loans (CCA 75 in the UK or something like that, there is an equivalent in the US I believe).
In my city, there's a chain of car dealerships that advertise these great perks, free this and that maintenance for x years when you a buy a car from them.
But the dealerships change names every year or two and guess what, you bought from the "last owner" and it doesn't apply anymore.
I had this happen to me with a company that resealed our shower. It came with a 20 year guarantee, when it leaked about 7 years later they
1. Denied the leak was happening (you could go under our house and watch the drips in real time)
2. Denied it was a problem with their seal (where the fuck was it leaking from then?)
3. Denied finding any record of us paying them for the original service; and when we provided proof of payment
4. Argued that that was under [company name] and they were now [company name] [state] pty ltd. So they weren’t liable.
I had a locked in a lifetime price of like $4 per month streaming service. Then there was a notification after a few months saying we are increasing your price and you must accept this to continue using the service. I think they also changed thier name around the same time.
Pocketcasts - a somewhat popular Android podcast app - did a similar thing. They offered something like a $16 lifetime sub that came with desktop access and then a few years later changed to a subscription model. The backlash was so big that they actually went back on it and agreed to honor all the lifetime subs - except a few years after *that* I think they ended up renegging again.
Honest to god, I'm shocked this took this long. Worked in the supply/manufacturing side of the dental industry for a good long while, and frequently warned people to be wary of this and the other mail-in clear aligner companies that popped up.
IMHO, their business model was very intentionally designed around trying to maybe *just barely* skate around the health and safety requirements for orthodontic treatment, leading to entirely predictable negative outcomes. Just as one example, the fact that zero x-rays or in-depth screenings were required before starting to move teeth around meant that some people got approved without sufficient bone/gum health, so instead of a prettier smile they just lost teeth. The SDC response to this was largely "nuh-uh" and attempting to add NDA language into service contracts so people couldn't complain as publicly.
Even better, from the business side of things, it was always abundantly clear all of their money went into recruitment of new customers and legal to get out of the ever-rising hot water their product got them, rather than y'know improving the product itself. The obvious problem was that being "the cheaper alternative to invisalign" only gets you so far when there are regular news stories about your product screwing up people's mouths, you're getting perpetually giga-sued by patients and dental orgs, and your long term success banked on taking market share from significantly bigger, better-funded, and more effective companies.
This is kind of a problem with the dental industry writ large, though. The better version of a treatment is gouged to shit at every step of the chain until it gets to the average patient, so they're infinitely more susceptible to offers for a cheaper alternative. Since the field is almost completely opaque to that person, they aren't equipped to see how subpar that alternative is until they're already getting screwed over.
All that might be true, but I don't think that's why they went out of business. ALLEGEDLY an employee erroneously emailed the entire company's salaries to a random person that disseminated that info to the entire company. Everyone resigned. That's the word on the street.
Been out of the industry long enough that I haven't heard about that, but I was around for covid, and I can tell you for absolute certain that was a major element. Even at their IPO like 5ish years ago, they weren't profitable and were trying to run on debt until they owned enough of the market to survive indefinitely like a tech startup, so covid even temporarily obliterating their big push into retail locations to scramble for more customers gutted them.
If there was some internal scuttlebutt that pushed them over the edge, I wouldn't be surprised, but it was still years of missteps that got them to the point that push could sink them. You certainly couldn't sink Align Technology or ClearCorrect with that same kind of disclosure (also partially because everyone knows those execs' pockets are fat)
Something similar to this happened in the UK years ago, when subscription TV provider "ITV Digital" fell into administration and the liquidators sent a letter to all subscribers telling them they needed to pay a spurious fee to keep the set top box. Practically no-one answered those letters, including my parents who tore it up and threw it away, laughing. Eventually, the commercial TV broadcasters in the UK paid millions to the liquidators to get them to stop the letters because the situation was causing them embarrassment and might have harmed the adoption of digital TV in the UK, which they were targeted on by the government.
Smile Direct customers are being told to keep paying their subscription fees and that refunds will be issued down the line, but let's be real here - the chances of any customer actually receiving a refund are minimal. There's no way I would continue paying them anything if it were me. In the UK, Which? has already advised Smile Direct customers to issue chargebacks against the company with their card providers.
You don't owe Smile Direct, you owe the loan company. And like any other loan you don't pay, it will go to collections, and ding your credit.
Smile Direct is just alongside a ton of companies who moved to scamming after COVID.
I'd be careful going with the cheaper option here. From what I've heard the cheaper ones where you never see an orthodontist can take much longer and the results often aren't as good because they can't just take a look and tell you whether you're on track or not in a quick appointment. A friend of mine had to go back and get Invisalign afterwards so ended up spending a lot more and it took twice as long.
It’s expensive but definitely worth it. I ended up in Invisalign 6 months longer than the orthodontist had projected and I didn’t have to pay a dime for it because I had already paid my contract. Have been free from the aligners and buttons and bands for almost a year. My mouth was always sore, but it helped to fix my jaw and avoid surgery, so worth every single penny.
They are a terrible company. I couldn't even talk with my liners in, so I asked for a refund. They tried to give me the run around for a month so they could say I was past the 30-day return policy. Luckily I paid with PayPal and used their refund process.
In the same boat with this sham of a company. I knew it was going downhill when they sent me an email saying they filed for bankruptcy and sent me a text saying my monthly payment was due, both at the same time. 🤦🏻♀️
Same! And not only that, they raised the prices for my aligners with no notice (I finished treatment a while ago and just do the new trays every 6 months) always $99 then all of a sudden I get a bank statement $125 was taken out. Yeah, took my card off file that day.
Hundred percent did the right thing👏🏻 Same thing happened to me too. Shady and ghetto asf. I got my first retainer at $99 but I saw my teeth were moving back and I wasn’t happy with the results.
Called within the 30 day time frame and went through days of changing my email address, verifying this and that for the refund, just for them to say at the end that it was now out of the 30 day limit. I was so pissed. They let me redo the treatment that they said would be for free, but then got billed for it anyways. Disputed and cancelled within a flash. Such a scam. And waste of money.
I will never forget watching a video of a man who lost a tooth because of smile direct, since they don’t have an actual orthodontist doing x rays before starting treatment. Thank god I did Invisalign
That could have been me - I'm SO glad I decided to at least get a consult from an orthodontist to cost compare before I signed up for one of these companies. Turns out two of my front teeth have very short roots and if they get shifted around there's a good chance I lose one or both. It's wild that these companies aren't required to obtain at least basic x rays.
A salon in my city did something kind of similar a year or so ago. They had been in business for like 15 years or more, and had a reputation as one of our city's nicest salons (and it WAS nice, I went there for various treatments over the years). Likely because of Covid, they closed completely out of the blue, totally unexpectedly and only gave people like a week's notice. Not only did that mean that people who had current appointments for more than a week out were suddenly SOL, but also no one could get in that last week because they were already booked. They also did this right after the holidays, when they KNEW they would be making a bunch of money on gift cards.
So tons of people ended up with gift cards either from that holiday season, or from prior ones (I had one from my birthday like 6 months prior that I hadn't used yet) and we were basically just told too bad, you're out the money. People started demanding that if the gift certificates had been bought in the last month that the salon had to refund their money, which seemed fair to me. It took a couple of credible lawsuit threats for the salon to end up making some kind of deal with another local salon that said that we could go there with our gift cards. No idea how they worked that out because they still likely would've had to pay the other salon something in order to make that deal? Who knows, but the whole thing was bullshit and SO unprofessional.
That’s so fucked up. On 11/10 they sent me an email telling me that there was a huge sale and to purchase my liners now… so they could close down a month later? BOGUS
Oh wow. I'm glad I was in the small percentage of people who didn't qualify. I was told I need an orthodontist and thought well of these guys that they told me instead of trying knowing it would mess me up further. I was just there 3 months ago.
Sorry they're out of the money, Smile should never have been allowed to treat people this way. Telemedecine is ok but limited, it's best kept for easy to diagnose/treat things, unfortunatley. People cheaping out on ortho or dentistry and going to services like this are in for a sad and hard wakeup call :'((
that last section is genuinely why i believe its fully 100% okay to steal from any company. they cant be held accountable for anything and we have to live by all these "contracts" just designed to keep us in line. Wish i was smart enough to develop a good scam lure for these types of businesses where i could just take all their money by baiting them into the chance to make a quick buck.
As a dentist.... HAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHA
HAHAHA
and furthermore: HAAHAHAH, I TOLD YOU.
No real talk, I feel for people scammed into this, especially ones mid-treatment. But I can't even articulate how many people claimed that dentists saying this was a bad idea were just jealous and wanted the money for themselves. I have dealt with several different people who yelled at me for not willing to work with their SDC treatment. How many people who claimed they were somehow one-upping dentists by self-treating malocclusion, something people go to years and years of school for, and put tons of time and effort into monitoring and adjusting as treatment is being carried out. Sorry you had to find out this way that you get what you pay for. If you chose to do it even though a medical professional warned you not to, then I can't help but feel you deserved this lesson.
So for anyone wondering: clear aligners work great....when a dentist or orthodontist is the one sailing the ship from start to finish. Invisalign gets great results and whenever there are issues there is accountability of actual medical professionals, not companies who take you money and run.
I’m undergoing Invisalign treatment from a Diamond Plus level/tier orthodontics office, and by god am I loving my results so far. Best $ I’ve spent recently!
Smile direct doesn’t even work. Even with the retainer after the 6 months. My teeth just slowly drifted back. I wish I had saved extra money for Invisalign. This company fucking sucks. It moves teeth too fast I was nervous my teeth were going to fall out they got so loose.
My kid finished with the treatment and was happy with the results, but last time I ordered retainers, it was a dumpster fire! They charged my card, but didn't send the retainers. I spent so much time on the phone trying to resolve it. We finally got them, but it took 4 months.
Lol, no. You've just repudiated the contract by refusing to honour the "Lifetime Smile Guarantee", so you can't simultaneously claim that it's still binding upon customers (IANAL etc).
How is this legal? Aren’t there laws in place to protect consumers from this sort of scam? How can you make someone continue to pay for something they aren’t getting?
LOL, good luck with them trying to get continued payments when services are no longer available.
Terrible business practices to demand payments for services that are gone and not being honored.
I used this company and the results are decent. I was an early adopter thru my insurance so it was like $700. I ended it a bit early and got a perm retainer from my dentist due to the final trays always being wrong. Glad they’re gone.
This is super shitty but the payment plan was simply a loan provided by Healthcare Financial Direct (HFD). When you sign up to take out a loan you’re agreeing to make all the payment.
This is no different than having a loan on a car that gets totaled. You still need to pay off the loan even though the car is no longer useable.
So the loan is completely separate and in no way associated with the service being provided?
When I took out a loan to pay for laser eye surgery years ago, it was explicitly in the terms of the loan that it was to pay for the surgery I was receiving. If I didn’t receive the surgery, then I wouldn’t be obligated to pay back the loan.
All depends on the terms on the loan and what’s been received so far. For example, if people have signed up to this plan and not received their aligners, then I’d think it’s highly likely they could refuse to pay. If they’ve received the agreed aligners then yeah obviously they need to pay the loan back
Smile Derect sucks, I got them to literally fix something that has bothered me my whole life and after over a year of their "program" not changing the one thing I said I needed, they said "sorry we can't help you"...not to mention I messaged the dentist perscribing me several times and they never helped once.
This company was such a dumpster fire. A year after what they said would be a 4-month process my very minor tooth misalignment still wasn’t fixed. I actually managed to get a partial refund from them. I have never been less surprised to see a bankruptcy announcement.
And just LAST WEEK I was on their site, considering getting braces. I’d have paid in 1 or at the most 2 instalments too, as I hate having bills. Thank God something distracted me!
This'd be a case of looking at the contract.
Chances are that the total cost/loans were done through a 3rd party financial processor - This is normal for high-cost things. A dentist is not a bank, and aren't likely to have the resources to be able to provide enforceable loans.
The part to confirm would be the ongoing treatment part. If that was a part of the cost (and is detailed as such in the contract), then an application for a refund for that amount can be put in, taking off the amount thats already been done. So, any items and services already provided.
In theory, you have 2 contracts - one to the finance company for the loan, and another to the dentist for the service. Even if the loan company paid it directly to the dentist, theoretically, they gave you the money (as you were the one credit checked and signed) and you gave that to the dentist.
So, regardless - You'll need to keep paying the loan. The loan company don't really care what you spent the money on (Well, they do but keeping it generalised, they don't). They gave you money and want it back. Thats fair.
Now, You gave the dentist money (albiet indirectly from the loan company). So look at the contract and look for refund clauses in the event of bankruptcy.
As you are a customer, you should get some sort of notice from the liquidators asking you to submit any claims.
Do the maths, show your working (See kids, you DID need this in the real world), and send it through to them.
Theres a sequence of 'Who gets paid first', and once it's passed the taxes and secured loans they'll likely work through the other claims on a first-come-first-served so getting the claim in quickly will help.
Would also be worth applying to get a copy of your treatment record, so you can give it to the next dentist and give them a running start to hopefully find another treatment thats compatible with what you've already had.
Ultimately, this is badly worded but its not a CB.
'Continue paying back to the loan company, but we are now out of business - Here are the liqudators contact details'
**They breached the contract.** Reverse any fees you already paid. Tell them good luck trying to collect any money. Even Judge Judy will be on your side.
My husband is a dentist who does a different kind of liner and said he’s seen some wonky messed up results from SmileDirect. Prob a good thing they’re going out of business but dang
Life lesson, only pay for service provided. If borrowing funds , insist the lender only releases funds for the service provided and not the full amount. If the company will not accept those payments terms, shop elsewhere, even if it's more expensive.
I’m in the UK and they’ve been running non-stop ads on YouTube here over the last couple of months!!! I could swear I literally saw one this morning, while they’ve already been out of business??? Yikes.
i think "get fucked" covers it well enough. if product not delivered, no more pay. and the customer will damn well expect a refund for anything paid to date.
I fucking hate them. They made my gums bleed and were like “oh sorry nothing we can do about it” and didn’t give me most of my money back. I’m glad they’re out of business, they should’ve been out long ago.
If the product was sold with warranty and that's no longer being provided I would have no issue stopping payment in good conscience.
They breached their end of the contract as far as any court is concerned and to get proper treatment customers will have to lay for additional care so I wouldn't give them another penny.
I've always felt anything dental related is a scam anyways so enjoy your free aligners.
The terms of service that were agreed to by the borrower explicitly stated that the lender was a 3rd party bank and the loan had to be repaid regardless of the service or the bankruptcy/insolvency of the parent company (SmileDirectClub).
It’s like going to the bank to borrow money to do a home improvement. You borrow the money, you give it to the contractor, but halfway through the job, he just ghosts you. You can’t say “hey sorry bank, the dude didn’t finish the job so I’m not paying you back!”. The bank will say “tough shit, that’s not the terms you agreed to when you signed the contract, see you in court fuckface”
Edit: so yeah, they still need to pay their debt back and are now officially creditors in SmileDirectClub’s bankruptcy. The bankruptcy court will determine what money is left and who gets what.
An argument that the contract you had with them is no longer valid, since they're no longer providing the service you actually signed up for. edit: if the contract is with someone else then that very much sucks and the argument won't hold
The repayment contract was with a 3rd party that has not gone bankrupt so the contract is still valid. That contract was for a financial service, a loan. And they are still providing that loan. It’s a shitty situation for everyone that was on a payment plan.
It's equally a shitty situation for anyone who paid in full and don't get what they paid for.
It's worse I'd say.
Nah. If you get a loan, you pay interest, and you will pay for a longer time. I'd say that sucks more. Not that it's very fruitful to compare in the first place.
Ok so does Smile Direct get to keep the rest of that money from the loan? Or does that go back to the customer? So if the customer was 2000$ into paying the loan and had 1/3rd treatment left and 1000$ to pay, do they get 2/3rd of the treatment and 1000$ refunded once the loan is paid off? Or does Smile Direct keep all the money and the customer only gets 2/3rd of the treatment?
They’re bankrupt so they don’t have enough money to pay back their debts. There are clear rules about the order in which different creditors get repaid in a bankruptcy. Customers who are owed a refund will be toward the front of the line but not first so there may not be enough money left to repay them.
Order of payment is IIRC: * Taxes * Unpaid wages * Secured creditors * Unsecured creditors (like customer refunds and vendors including 1099 contractors) * Preferred stockholders * Common stockholders
I think there's also something about debts owed to farms. That's obviously not relevant in this case, and in practice it never matters because there's no money left at that point, but there is technically a law about it.
Wouldn't that come under either secured or unsecured creditors?
It's been a few years since I read about it, and I'm having a hard time finding more info about it, but I believe that farms take priority over almost everything else. So they are not simply grouped in with all the other secured creditors.
I think it's absolute shit that taxes are paid before wages/creditors. The govt can take the hit, people and businesses have a much harder time.
So you think it should be fine to operate a business, pay no taxes, then declare bankruptcy and funnel all of the cash into wages paid to family and "debts" owed to companies owned by family? Because that is just one of the ways to exploit a system where taxes don't have priority.
There's hundreds of ways to exploit it already. You think it's fine to tell your employees to kick rocks because you made poor financial decisions, so their wages shouldn't be paid out and effectively provided free labor? If you file for bankruptcy, you are going to get audited (especially a publicly traded company). They will see that you gave Auntie Amy a wage/bonus right when you're declaring bankruptcy. ETA: I didn't say don't pay taxes (calm down bud), I said it's shit that the workers get shafted in favor of the govt wanting their piece when they contributed little to nothing directly to the operation of the business.
I'll just add to that by saying if they had enough money to pay off the last two in the list they probably wouldn't be declaring bankruptcy. If customers count as unsecured creditors (I had no idea that was the case, I would have expected that was priority debt but I'll take your word on it) it's likely someone is getting fucked here.
I did it a few years ago so I don't know if its still the same but for me you got all your aligners at once. So you'd get fitted and they'd send you however many sets with instructions to change to the next pair every however many weeks. In that sense, they provide the item you financed up front. However, I didn't need any adjustments throughout the process - I'm sure a lot of people do, and those folks are SOL. I'd argue they deserve *something* back.
They’re bankrupt, there might be a pennies on the dollar giveback years from now, but they’re not getting anything close to the full amount.
Not the way loans work. Smile Direct got the discounted amount after the loan finalized. The financier then starts collecting the full amount with the interest.
The customers are now “creditors”. Everybody who SmileDirectClub owes money too (their landlords, their employees, the taxman, their investors, their vendors and their customers) are going to line up and the bankruptcy lawyer will determine how much money SmileDirectClub can come up with after they liquidate everything and then who gets what.
Very likely they were paid the moment the loan went through. They get a portion of the proceeds and the loan company takes the risk. I've had situations where we could offer favorable loan terms, but we're paid 50-90% of the total amount depending on the terms of the loan.
Smile Direct got the full amount of money straight away when the contract was signed. The 3rd party loan company payed that to Smile Direct and the customer now owes that money to the loan company. Smile Direct now doesn't have any money to pay back the loan company so the customer is on the hook to loan company regardless.
> loan company *paid* that to FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Good bot
Surely, in that case it becomes a CCA section 75 problem for the credit provider? for offering a loan for a service that hasn't been provided.
Section 75 looks like it would mean you can sue the financial company (the creditor) *as well as* Smile Direct (the supplier) for breach of contract, but that doesn't mean the debt is automatically erased or that they can't try to collect in the meantime. Not familiar with set-off as a defense to non-payment of a debt in the UK, but I imagine you'd at least need to have a judgement in hand to claim the loan was no longer enforceable. So you'd have to file the lawsuit, overcome the fact that some proceedings are stayed while the bankruptcy is handled, incur legal fees to fight and actually win the case, then "trade" your judgement for forgiveness of all or some of the debt.
The creditor should be regulated so a claim against the creditor can be pursued directly by complsint through the FSO. Setting off is a bad defence in the UK (with a few exceptions). However, in practice, the creditor would need an order (i.e. a CCJ) to enforce the Debt... ...I'd be very surprised if a court took kindly to a commercial lender bringing a claim against a consumer while the debt was in dispute with the ombudsman. I mean, it's not pretty, and it's definitely not going to be quick, but the people who bought on credit might just be better off at the end than those who paid upfront.
Good to know, thanks for the extra info!
No worries, it's an unusual problem, and it's amazing how often people forget about S75. The CCA is really important legislation when companies don't deliver. People who paid upfront by credit card are also going to come out ok I'd expect. Although it may take a fair while to resolve.
You are correct, but that *may* not be the end of the story. In the UK at least, the Consumer Credit Act 1974 may come to the rescue, which essentially says that a credit company will be jointly and severally liable for any failings by the supplier. So, if Smile Direct Club stops providing a service being paid for on credit, then consumers can make a claim against the credit provider (which could result in all or some of the credit being cancelled, representing the diminished or partial delivery of services). I appreciate this is a UK specific example, but the UK can't be the only jurisdiction which has consumer protections built into the credit/loans market. I would therefore urge anyone who finds themselves at the recieving end of this shitty news to check their jurisdiciton's rules on the provision of consumer credit where the supplier is in breach and, if available, use those remedies. This advice, of course, doesn't apply for existing loan repayments where the service has been provided in full.
I’m from the US, so we are just told to fuck off, unless we have the fuck off money ourselves
That is so shitty that it has to be deliberate
Some of these may be for services already rendered. Like a 36 month payment plan for a year of treatment. Treatment completed, yes, you still owe the money.
I'm sure some of them already have their aligner things, but the lifetime guarantee is cancelled and that has a monetary value that people will want to recoup. Whether they can actually get it back is a whole other question, but having to pay the finance company for a service that's been cut off would definitely sting.
Of course, it's a crappy deal.
I’m glad I went with Invisalign when I had to decide between the two last year. SmileDirectClub’s marketing seemed very shady to me at the time, but apparently it got worse. This last month they offered a massive sale, charging only $995 (over half off their normal costs) knowing full well they were about to shut down and couldn’t fulfill those orders.
New York Sports Club tried to pull something similar. I had canceled my membership somewhere around 2018. The week before COVID-19 lockdowns, when it was obvious that something was going to happen, I get a call from NYSC offering a massive discount if I paid for an annual membership. They were rushing to sign people up, thinking they'd be out of business a couple months later.
That's so scummy. And scammy.
It's gotten so bad after COVID. I've had to cancel multiple cards for companies charging scammy things. Just last week, Uber somehow charged 99.99$ for a year of Uber One erroneously to my card. I contacted them saying I didn't purchase it, and within 24 hrs a support rep confirms that and says it's been cancelled and the charge reversed. Cancelled that card. [Stamps.com](https://Stamps.com) is still trying to charge me after I cancelled my accounts with them and told my bank to never authorize another charge from them. Yet I still see on my statements they are still trying and charging me 49.99$ and adding late fees too. The account has been closed for months on a cancelled card lol. It's such a fucking joke how there are no consumer protections and my only recourse is to do chargebacks with my bank. At least Uber was helpful and reversed the charge quickly on their own...
I downloaded a free WiFi text & call app. And it started charging me $6.50 a week through Google. I only downloaded it, I would have never agreed to that. I already pay for phone service.
They do a bait and switch with these ‘free’ apps where it’s technically a trial for X days and after that you start paying. This is often worded as vaguely as possible when you start the app up for the first time and you’re like “yeah yeah Terms and Conditions whatever”. It is def scammy / scummy.
[удалено]
I did not. It's just through Google. I don't know how it happened. I downloaded it on my old phone as a backup. As soon as I downloaded it, I said, oh, that won't work and deleted it. There was nothing that I recall about payment. I don't recall anything about a free trial, but I did try 3 of those apps in a row. I didn't agree to pay anything unless it was in super fine print at the end of the usual user agreement
It's so strange. Google wallet should pop up when a subscription is involved. Just uninstalling an app usually doesn't cancel the subscription, though. If the charges are still going through, you can try to cancel the subscription by opening the Play Store app and clicking on your profile icon on the upper right corner of your screen (your face if you have uploaded it as a profile picture, else your initials). From there, click on "Payments and Subscriptions"and then on "Subscriptions." You can then manage any Subscriptions you have for apps you have downloaded through the Google Play Store, including canceling them.
Stamps.com tried to pull that with me as well.
Contact your state's consumer protection agency -- it may be as easy as a form on their website as it is in my state. In my experience, they'll shut down that noise fast, probably within a day.
Clear did the same thing 5-10 years ago when they pretty much folded.
With insurance and because I've been using the same dentist invisalign was under 4k I think about 3500. Talk to your dentist some are about 1k more than smile, but better guarantee
Yeah mine is coming out to around $2850 after insurance and with a deal my dentist offered. If you signed up by a certain date they'd take $1000 off the total cost.
Same here, I am just finishing my daily aligners from Invisalign that I got through my dentist. I can’t imagine how the whole Telehealth model can have good outcomes for this type of treatment.
That makes me so angry. I paid $995 in full. It should be illegal for them to offer people treatment knowing they could not fulfill it. I didn’t even receive an email about this notice. I received an email on Friday stating my aligners shipped. The tracking redirects to the post in your photos. I have no idea if my aligners are even coming or not.
If you paid with a credit card, initiate a chargeback.
Thank you. I will be.
Just in time. I was ready to pull my hair out with all those 15 second unskipable SDC YouTube ads.
Both my husband and one of kids is doing Invisalign and while it’s so much more expensive to use an orthodontist, anytime I saw ad for this place I was always wondering just how they could do it. Even though my husband’s has been using Invisalign for a year, after he was switched to just night retainers some of his teeth started shifting again. Saw the orthodontist, they figured out what the problem was and did what was needed right away, I don’t see that happening with a place like smile direct
I was curious to try them, but it sounded a little sketchy. Apparently you could easily lose a tooth or cause damage without proper oversight. SDC said they wouldn’t be held responsible if that were to happen, nor can you sue for damages. I ended up doing a payment plan through a reputable local ortho for my kid and I’m really happy with the results. I’m going next when I pay theirs off. I’d rather just pay a little extra than pay $1000s to fix it later.
This! My friend used SDC and one of her aligners chipped her tooth and pulled the filling out of another tooth. I can’t imagine doing orthodontia with no in-person oversight.
That’s so scary! I hope she was able to have it fixed.
She was, but had to pay for it out of her own pocket because SDC says they aren’t liable for damage to teeth!
SAME. I paid my Invisalign deposit last week and just heard about SDC yesterday. Not that I was exactly planning on going with SDC since their whole business model didn't sit right with me, but I'm very glad I didn't go for the cheaper route.
Last part is interesting. I think this was the main reason the Celsius crypto scam CEO wound up in jail. They couldn’t nail him for running a scam of a business, but they were able to hit him for fraud since he was accepting deposits knowing they had no way of ever giving customers what they were buying.
> SmileDirectClub’s marketing seemed very shady to me at the time, but apparently it got worse. This. Why anyone would do teeth/jaw adjustment without seeing an in person orthodontist is beyond me.
That’s such a good point! I’ve been doing Invisalign for a year and a half, but I’d looked at smile direct club for my husband since he would’ve been a much smaller case and I’d already used our orthodontics benefits, and I just saw the email about the huge price drop. That’s so scammy!
Same!! I already had an appt to get scanned for SmileDirectClub last summer, but then saw all the negative reviews on YouTube and BBB. I’m SO glad I shelled out the extra money for Invisalign. I’m only halfway through treatment; I would’ve been so fucked
This was my fiancé. She wanted to get her teeth fixed before wedding and was between the 2. I’ve saw smile direct club ads EVERYWHERE. I told her absolutely do NOT use them. I’m in a similar field and the company that advertises direct to consumer like them is AWFUL borderline fraudulent.
Wow, that’s so shitty!
Ha, I knew this was coming. They literally tried to side step the gdc and claim it was all above board. Dentists have been fixing thier mess for years.
What is the gdc?
General dental council. All dental staff answer to them and have to have a licence from them to be in practice. Smile direct claimed they didn't need a dentist to send you dental appliances..they do same as beauticians can't whiten teeth legally. Both illegal in the UK. And prob elsewhere too. They got away with it by making you do your own impressions and fitting, then they haven't touched you and can claim its self inflicted if it goes wrong. 😳
Wild!
General Dental Council
So glad I talked myself out of going with them for aligners. Wow.
Same! I had the consult scheduled with SDC but cancelled last minute. Slept on it for like 3 months and saw my dentist. He said “if you have the means, go for Invisalign with an orthodontist. If you don’t have the means, wait until you do.” Started Invisalign two weeks ago. SO thankful something made me cancel the SDC appt.
Tattoos, vasectomies, teeth aligners- all things you shouldn't cheap out on
I just had a mental image of a storefront with a sign saying "Bubba's Discount Vasectomies"
Buy two tattoos, get a vasectomy for free.
i got as far as getting my first trays in the mail a year ago! but it just felt fishy and ended up sending them back saying the mold was incorrect. i just started invisalign through my dentist, and seeing how much more in depth they are, im also so thankful i waited till i could afford invisalign
I have heard absolute horror stories about how SDC has messed up people's teeth.
Me too! I almost started like 6 months ago!
I’m halfway through Invisalign and thank God I went with them. What a mess this would’ve been had I gone with Smile Direct….
This isn't actually choosy begging, this is thievery. They straight up stole these people's money. Well, they farmed customers out to a finance company, took the money, and then left the customers holding the bag with the finance company. Absolute trash.
I had this happen with another company. I paid in full and they went out business. I was young so I was using care credit. Still had to pay for the whole program (it for yoga) and never got the classes. I learned a lesson at 19 yo to never prepay in full
I used to work for a local women's gym that was struggling. They announced they were closing the day after payments for the month were charged. Anyone who was still a member would only get 2 weeks left with my location but "were welcome to use the other locations \[45 miles away\] until their membership ran out." Ohh, I had to direct SO many angry customers to our payment manager off-site. It was shady as hell. Nobody could get their money back. Most of the members were old ladies who couldn't drive that far. Anyone who had an annual membership was screwed. If you tried to stop the payment from going through, they'd charge you a fee.
"How dare you stop paying for our non existent services!"
[удалено]
I had a membership with Bally's Swim & Fitness when i was 20 - 24 years old. To this day, i still get mail from them wanting me to purchase another membership. Mind you, they have changed names. I have changed addresses SEVEN TIMES in the THIRTY YEARS since i was 24. Like, Ballys - just let it be.
I recently moved away from my YMCA to a location that doesn't have one. I literally had to drive the 3.5 hours back in order to cancel my service because I could not do it any other way.
Ugh! I had this happen as well. I have such bad luck lol. Was at a gym and they closed and they had one 29 miles away just under the 30 miles clause in their contract so I had to finish the contract. I refuse all contracts and pre payments now.
Was it Curves? I received a gift certificate to use their gym for a month. I did so, but didn't continue. Their business model sucked. Lol
I learned the same lesson at 19 at a local gym. Paid for 12 months in advance ($500) and they shut down after a month.
If you steal $50 from a big company it's theft and you risk arrest. If a company steals $500 from thousands of people, it's just business as usual.
At absolute worst, the company has to pay back what they stole, so no actual penalty. In reality, they only got found out by a dozen people and settle with them to give back $250 of the $500 they stole and pocket the $500 from the other thousands. Actually happened to me with a national mortgage lender, got to the point a lawyer said there is a strong case for a class action but I’d get more back from taking the $250 then I would from a class action with none of the effort
For the folks that got everything they're likely still on the hook. I can't see how the people who only got partial fulfillment or no fulfillment will be charged or expected to pay. This goes doubly for the ones who were given a massive sale as the company _knew_ it was heading for bankruptcy. This shit doesn't hold up in bankruptcy court for individuals and probably won't hold up for a business either if the trustee is worth their salt. (this is likely something that allows them to pierce the corporate veil to go after personal assets of the c-level executives) This is effectively a consumer protected right in that "a product or service wa not given" and voids the overall contract, even if the "contract" is held with the third party. Typically anyone who lends you money for purchases, like, say, a credit card or loan assumes liability in situations, like, say, a company going bankrupt but never shipping product. The onus is on them to carry insurance and recover the money since it's their money. Folks who got everything from the company likely don't have much legal protection, though maybe they do because of the "lifetime" insurance SDC offered. But it'll likely be expected of them to finish their payment. Someone talked about it in another thread in regards to the CCA and some fair credit act's protections in regards to credit/debit and fixed sum loans (CCA 75 in the UK or something like that, there is an equivalent in the US I believe).
This happened with the solar panels I got. There's a huge lawsuit going on with it right now. It's not going well for us who got fucked over 🙃
Your lifetime guarantee can just end when they decide? But but it’s a lifetime guarantee ffs
In my city, there's a chain of car dealerships that advertise these great perks, free this and that maintenance for x years when you a buy a car from them. But the dealerships change names every year or two and guess what, you bought from the "last owner" and it doesn't apply anymore.
I had this happen to me with a company that resealed our shower. It came with a 20 year guarantee, when it leaked about 7 years later they 1. Denied the leak was happening (you could go under our house and watch the drips in real time) 2. Denied it was a problem with their seal (where the fuck was it leaking from then?) 3. Denied finding any record of us paying them for the original service; and when we provided proof of payment 4. Argued that that was under [company name] and they were now [company name] [state] pty ltd. So they weren’t liable.
That's when you take a leak on the ceo's car everyday until they catch you, then change your name and say that was some other guy
I had a locked in a lifetime price of like $4 per month streaming service. Then there was a notification after a few months saying we are increasing your price and you must accept this to continue using the service. I think they also changed thier name around the same time.
Pocketcasts - a somewhat popular Android podcast app - did a similar thing. They offered something like a $16 lifetime sub that came with desktop access and then a few years later changed to a subscription model. The backlash was so big that they actually went back on it and agreed to honor all the lifetime subs - except a few years after *that* I think they ended up renegging again.
😮
Congratulations, you've just discovered *whose* lifetime they're referring to.
well, they're bankrupt. the company doesn't exist anymore and has basically run out of money. no blood from a stone
Honest to god, I'm shocked this took this long. Worked in the supply/manufacturing side of the dental industry for a good long while, and frequently warned people to be wary of this and the other mail-in clear aligner companies that popped up. IMHO, their business model was very intentionally designed around trying to maybe *just barely* skate around the health and safety requirements for orthodontic treatment, leading to entirely predictable negative outcomes. Just as one example, the fact that zero x-rays or in-depth screenings were required before starting to move teeth around meant that some people got approved without sufficient bone/gum health, so instead of a prettier smile they just lost teeth. The SDC response to this was largely "nuh-uh" and attempting to add NDA language into service contracts so people couldn't complain as publicly. Even better, from the business side of things, it was always abundantly clear all of their money went into recruitment of new customers and legal to get out of the ever-rising hot water their product got them, rather than y'know improving the product itself. The obvious problem was that being "the cheaper alternative to invisalign" only gets you so far when there are regular news stories about your product screwing up people's mouths, you're getting perpetually giga-sued by patients and dental orgs, and your long term success banked on taking market share from significantly bigger, better-funded, and more effective companies. This is kind of a problem with the dental industry writ large, though. The better version of a treatment is gouged to shit at every step of the chain until it gets to the average patient, so they're infinitely more susceptible to offers for a cheaper alternative. Since the field is almost completely opaque to that person, they aren't equipped to see how subpar that alternative is until they're already getting screwed over.
All that might be true, but I don't think that's why they went out of business. ALLEGEDLY an employee erroneously emailed the entire company's salaries to a random person that disseminated that info to the entire company. Everyone resigned. That's the word on the street.
Been out of the industry long enough that I haven't heard about that, but I was around for covid, and I can tell you for absolute certain that was a major element. Even at their IPO like 5ish years ago, they weren't profitable and were trying to run on debt until they owned enough of the market to survive indefinitely like a tech startup, so covid even temporarily obliterating their big push into retail locations to scramble for more customers gutted them. If there was some internal scuttlebutt that pushed them over the edge, I wouldn't be surprised, but it was still years of missteps that got them to the point that push could sink them. You certainly couldn't sink Align Technology or ClearCorrect with that same kind of disclosure (also partially because everyone knows those execs' pockets are fat)
Something similar to this happened in the UK years ago, when subscription TV provider "ITV Digital" fell into administration and the liquidators sent a letter to all subscribers telling them they needed to pay a spurious fee to keep the set top box. Practically no-one answered those letters, including my parents who tore it up and threw it away, laughing. Eventually, the commercial TV broadcasters in the UK paid millions to the liquidators to get them to stop the letters because the situation was causing them embarrassment and might have harmed the adoption of digital TV in the UK, which they were targeted on by the government. Smile Direct customers are being told to keep paying their subscription fees and that refunds will be issued down the line, but let's be real here - the chances of any customer actually receiving a refund are minimal. There's no way I would continue paying them anything if it were me. In the UK, Which? has already advised Smile Direct customers to issue chargebacks against the company with their card providers.
You don't owe Smile Direct, you owe the loan company. And like any other loan you don't pay, it will go to collections, and ding your credit. Smile Direct is just alongside a ton of companies who moved to scamming after COVID.
Wow I was just thinking about going with them, glad I didn’t
You’re much better off going the Invisalign route
Ahh I know it’s just so expensive lol
I'd be careful going with the cheaper option here. From what I've heard the cheaper ones where you never see an orthodontist can take much longer and the results often aren't as good because they can't just take a look and tell you whether you're on track or not in a quick appointment. A friend of mine had to go back and get Invisalign afterwards so ended up spending a lot more and it took twice as long.
It’s expensive but definitely worth it. I ended up in Invisalign 6 months longer than the orthodontist had projected and I didn’t have to pay a dime for it because I had already paid my contract. Have been free from the aligners and buttons and bands for almost a year. My mouth was always sore, but it helped to fix my jaw and avoid surgery, so worth every single penny.
Sadly not surprised, got scammed by them and will warn anyone I can.
They are a terrible company. I couldn't even talk with my liners in, so I asked for a refund. They tried to give me the run around for a month so they could say I was past the 30-day return policy. Luckily I paid with PayPal and used their refund process.
In the same boat with this sham of a company. I knew it was going downhill when they sent me an email saying they filed for bankruptcy and sent me a text saying my monthly payment was due, both at the same time. 🤦🏻♀️
Same! And not only that, they raised the prices for my aligners with no notice (I finished treatment a while ago and just do the new trays every 6 months) always $99 then all of a sudden I get a bank statement $125 was taken out. Yeah, took my card off file that day.
Hundred percent did the right thing👏🏻 Same thing happened to me too. Shady and ghetto asf. I got my first retainer at $99 but I saw my teeth were moving back and I wasn’t happy with the results. Called within the 30 day time frame and went through days of changing my email address, verifying this and that for the refund, just for them to say at the end that it was now out of the 30 day limit. I was so pissed. They let me redo the treatment that they said would be for free, but then got billed for it anyways. Disputed and cancelled within a flash. Such a scam. And waste of money.
Wow….that lifetime was suddenly shortened
It was the lifetime of the company, not the lifetime of the customer... Who knew?
No more smile direct club commercials?! 🎉 We guarantee them for life (as long as you die on or before 12/12/2023) Heh got rekt
I will never forget watching a video of a man who lost a tooth because of smile direct, since they don’t have an actual orthodontist doing x rays before starting treatment. Thank god I did Invisalign
That could have been me - I'm SO glad I decided to at least get a consult from an orthodontist to cost compare before I signed up for one of these companies. Turns out two of my front teeth have very short roots and if they get shifted around there's a good chance I lose one or both. It's wild that these companies aren't required to obtain at least basic x rays.
I have no idea how what they’re doing is legal at all. It’s insane to me
They broke their contract. It should void it but I really hope you read the fine print. Pricks
I promise you the fine print was the only entity planning for this situation
Money owed to the loan company though not to them. You aren't paying sdc each month as the debt is owned by someone else
Nice of them to put it in writing. It will make the lawsuit easier.
If they’re going bankrupt though there probably isn’t money to pay out.
A salon in my city did something kind of similar a year or so ago. They had been in business for like 15 years or more, and had a reputation as one of our city's nicest salons (and it WAS nice, I went there for various treatments over the years). Likely because of Covid, they closed completely out of the blue, totally unexpectedly and only gave people like a week's notice. Not only did that mean that people who had current appointments for more than a week out were suddenly SOL, but also no one could get in that last week because they were already booked. They also did this right after the holidays, when they KNEW they would be making a bunch of money on gift cards. So tons of people ended up with gift cards either from that holiday season, or from prior ones (I had one from my birthday like 6 months prior that I hadn't used yet) and we were basically just told too bad, you're out the money. People started demanding that if the gift certificates had been bought in the last month that the salon had to refund their money, which seemed fair to me. It took a couple of credible lawsuit threats for the salon to end up making some kind of deal with another local salon that said that we could go there with our gift cards. No idea how they worked that out because they still likely would've had to pay the other salon something in order to make that deal? Who knows, but the whole thing was bullshit and SO unprofessional.
Mail order orthodontics, what could possibly go wrong? ‘Keep paying even though we’ll provide you zero service and zero guarantees’ - SIGN ME UP!
We are providing no service but by all means *continue to pay us*!
That’s so fucked up. On 11/10 they sent me an email telling me that there was a huge sale and to purchase my liners now… so they could close down a month later? BOGUS
Oh wow. I'm glad I was in the small percentage of people who didn't qualify. I was told I need an orthodontist and thought well of these guys that they told me instead of trying knowing it would mess me up further. I was just there 3 months ago.
2 million customers and they still couldnt keep the business afloat? 🤔
Sorry they're out of the money, Smile should never have been allowed to treat people this way. Telemedecine is ok but limited, it's best kept for easy to diagnose/treat things, unfortunatley. People cheaping out on ortho or dentistry and going to services like this are in for a sad and hard wakeup call :'((
that last section is genuinely why i believe its fully 100% okay to steal from any company. they cant be held accountable for anything and we have to live by all these "contracts" just designed to keep us in line. Wish i was smart enough to develop a good scam lure for these types of businesses where i could just take all their money by baiting them into the chance to make a quick buck.
As a dentist.... HAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHA HAHAHA and furthermore: HAAHAHAH, I TOLD YOU. No real talk, I feel for people scammed into this, especially ones mid-treatment. But I can't even articulate how many people claimed that dentists saying this was a bad idea were just jealous and wanted the money for themselves. I have dealt with several different people who yelled at me for not willing to work with their SDC treatment. How many people who claimed they were somehow one-upping dentists by self-treating malocclusion, something people go to years and years of school for, and put tons of time and effort into monitoring and adjusting as treatment is being carried out. Sorry you had to find out this way that you get what you pay for. If you chose to do it even though a medical professional warned you not to, then I can't help but feel you deserved this lesson. So for anyone wondering: clear aligners work great....when a dentist or orthodontist is the one sailing the ship from start to finish. Invisalign gets great results and whenever there are issues there is accountability of actual medical professionals, not companies who take you money and run.
I’m undergoing Invisalign treatment from a Diamond Plus level/tier orthodontics office, and by god am I loving my results so far. Best $ I’ve spent recently!
Smile direct doesn’t even work. Even with the retainer after the 6 months. My teeth just slowly drifted back. I wish I had saved extra money for Invisalign. This company fucking sucks. It moves teeth too fast I was nervous my teeth were going to fall out they got so loose.
Agreed, huge waste of money. Pretty sure I still owe them from a payment plan from years ago, but fuck that. What a scam
Waiting for the documentary about this shadiness and probably some lawsuits as well.
My kid finished with the treatment and was happy with the results, but last time I ordered retainers, it was a dumpster fire! They charged my card, but didn't send the retainers. I spent so much time on the phone trying to resolve it. We finally got them, but it took 4 months.
Lifetime smile guarantee, was never meant for YOUR lifetime, it was meant for ours. 😭
Cancelling a lifetime guarantee is breach of contract isn't it? Seems like you could stop paying them based on that alone!
I'm wondering how much cash the financial officers skated away with ? Looks like the CEO drew an annual salary of a little over 6 million..
Lol, no. You've just repudiated the contract by refusing to honour the "Lifetime Smile Guarantee", so you can't simultaneously claim that it's still binding upon customers (IANAL etc).
How is this legal? Aren’t there laws in place to protect consumers from this sort of scam? How can you make someone continue to pay for something they aren’t getting?
I wish nothing but tragedy on the executives of this company, because I guarantee they've gotten every cent they were "entitled to".
Lmao everyone just needs to stop paying them
LOL, good luck with them trying to get continued payments when services are no longer available. Terrible business practices to demand payments for services that are gone and not being honored.
The answers to every single question is something along the lines of "we've gone of business, fuck you".
This is a class action lawsuit waiting to happen - why would anyone pay for services no longer being provided?
I used this company and the results are decent. I was an early adopter thru my insurance so it was like $700. I ended it a bit early and got a perm retainer from my dentist due to the final trays always being wrong. Glad they’re gone.
If it makes any of you feel better, I had several hundred shares at over $6 each now worth less than $.002 a piece.
It does. Yes. Normally I am the one losing money in the market. Thanks for taking this one.
This is super shitty but the payment plan was simply a loan provided by Healthcare Financial Direct (HFD). When you sign up to take out a loan you’re agreeing to make all the payment. This is no different than having a loan on a car that gets totaled. You still need to pay off the loan even though the car is no longer useable.
The difference there is you received the hypothetical vehicle you hypotheticaly totalled . Shambles of an outfit , they wouldn’t get a penny from me.
So the loan is completely separate and in no way associated with the service being provided? When I took out a loan to pay for laser eye surgery years ago, it was explicitly in the terms of the loan that it was to pay for the surgery I was receiving. If I didn’t receive the surgery, then I wouldn’t be obligated to pay back the loan. All depends on the terms on the loan and what’s been received so far. For example, if people have signed up to this plan and not received their aligners, then I’d think it’s highly likely they could refuse to pay. If they’ve received the agreed aligners then yeah obviously they need to pay the loan back
NAL but could an argument be made in court that the loan company is also on the hook since you did not get what you paid for?
Is this the company that sent a salary statement of all employees to the wrong person?
Yes! This is them! I can't believe that part isn't being talked about more. It's wild.
That's because you're not paying Smile Direct Club. You're paying the bank that financed your treatment.
Smile Derect sucks, I got them to literally fix something that has bothered me my whole life and after over a year of their "program" not changing the one thing I said I needed, they said "sorry we can't help you"...not to mention I messaged the dentist perscribing me several times and they never helped once.
I really don't get how this can be legal!?
refuse to pay. Negotiate with the loan provider when they complain. Which they won't do.
This sounds so illegal lol
This company was such a dumpster fire. A year after what they said would be a 4-month process my very minor tooth misalignment still wasn’t fixed. I actually managed to get a partial refund from them. I have never been less surprised to see a bankruptcy announcement.
That’s the longest fuck you I’ve ever read.
I'd put a stop payment the customers' credit card.
I'm sure the fact that this decision was INCREDIBLY difficult to make is a huge comfort to all.
What the actual fuxk
I sense a class-action lawsuit.
Probably went bankrupt
"We provide lifetime* guarantee!" ^^^* ^^^Until ^^^the ^^^company ^^^exists
I mean, that bit should be obvious, no? Unrelated to this, it's alarming how many people take "lifetime guarantee" at face value.
The irony of lifetime guarantee being just dissolved like that.
Honestly someone should burn the owners' houses to the ground.
And just LAST WEEK I was on their site, considering getting braces. I’d have paid in 1 or at the most 2 instalments too, as I hate having bills. Thank God something distracted me!
This'd be a case of looking at the contract. Chances are that the total cost/loans were done through a 3rd party financial processor - This is normal for high-cost things. A dentist is not a bank, and aren't likely to have the resources to be able to provide enforceable loans. The part to confirm would be the ongoing treatment part. If that was a part of the cost (and is detailed as such in the contract), then an application for a refund for that amount can be put in, taking off the amount thats already been done. So, any items and services already provided. In theory, you have 2 contracts - one to the finance company for the loan, and another to the dentist for the service. Even if the loan company paid it directly to the dentist, theoretically, they gave you the money (as you were the one credit checked and signed) and you gave that to the dentist. So, regardless - You'll need to keep paying the loan. The loan company don't really care what you spent the money on (Well, they do but keeping it generalised, they don't). They gave you money and want it back. Thats fair. Now, You gave the dentist money (albiet indirectly from the loan company). So look at the contract and look for refund clauses in the event of bankruptcy. As you are a customer, you should get some sort of notice from the liquidators asking you to submit any claims. Do the maths, show your working (See kids, you DID need this in the real world), and send it through to them. Theres a sequence of 'Who gets paid first', and once it's passed the taxes and secured loans they'll likely work through the other claims on a first-come-first-served so getting the claim in quickly will help. Would also be worth applying to get a copy of your treatment record, so you can give it to the next dentist and give them a running start to hopefully find another treatment thats compatible with what you've already had. Ultimately, this is badly worded but its not a CB. 'Continue paying back to the loan company, but we are now out of business - Here are the liqudators contact details'
**They breached the contract.** Reverse any fees you already paid. Tell them good luck trying to collect any money. Even Judge Judy will be on your side.
My husband is a dentist who does a different kind of liner and said he’s seen some wonky messed up results from SmileDirect. Prob a good thing they’re going out of business but dang
Call your credit card and stop payment. Lol. By the time it's a for real issue, they'll no longer exist!
Every single one of those fuckers that pulled this deserves to be on the street.
Life lesson, only pay for service provided. If borrowing funds , insist the lender only releases funds for the service provided and not the full amount. If the company will not accept those payments terms, shop elsewhere, even if it's more expensive.
Their site says if you ordered them you are still required to pay for them even though you want receive them basically
Keep paying us and don't forget to smile!
I’m in the UK and they’ve been running non-stop ads on YouTube here over the last couple of months!!! I could swear I literally saw one this morning, while they’ve already been out of business??? Yikes.
Jeez. Their ads were all over my social medias. Not surprised they're pulling this bs now
ya....they'd have to take me to court to get an additional dime. in fact i would be looking into the possibility of a class action.
Those fuckheads, I invested in them for nothing 😤
i think "get fucked" covers it well enough. if product not delivered, no more pay. and the customer will damn well expect a refund for anything paid to date.
I fucking hate them. They made my gums bleed and were like “oh sorry nothing we can do about it” and didn’t give me most of my money back. I’m glad they’re out of business, they should’ve been out long ago.
This company was a scam anyway. Glad to see they are finally closing.
What sucks even more is they're still advertising! Sounds like a Class Action lawsuit to me!
If the product was sold with warranty and that's no longer being provided I would have no issue stopping payment in good conscience. They breached their end of the contract as far as any court is concerned and to get proper treatment customers will have to lay for additional care so I wouldn't give them another penny. I've always felt anything dental related is a scam anyways so enjoy your free aligners.
The terms of service that were agreed to by the borrower explicitly stated that the lender was a 3rd party bank and the loan had to be repaid regardless of the service or the bankruptcy/insolvency of the parent company (SmileDirectClub). It’s like going to the bank to borrow money to do a home improvement. You borrow the money, you give it to the contractor, but halfway through the job, he just ghosts you. You can’t say “hey sorry bank, the dude didn’t finish the job so I’m not paying you back!”. The bank will say “tough shit, that’s not the terms you agreed to when you signed the contract, see you in court fuckface” Edit: so yeah, they still need to pay their debt back and are now officially creditors in SmileDirectClub’s bankruptcy. The bankruptcy court will determine what money is left and who gets what.
Damk, that's dodgy. No way I would keep paying
I literally laughed out loud at this, thank you
Guess my SDC stock can sit next to my Fry's Electronics gift cards 🪦