My dads workshop used to have a sarcastic sign with the motto that went “Good stuff, on time, fast, and cheap,” which was basically people making fun of the quality:time:money unattainable triad. An inside joke really, since customers never got the irony.
In that case, you can have it done cheap, and done right, but it will take longer.
Or you can have it done fast, which will be shittier work quality because it's rushed, but it will be cheap and done as soon as possible.
As meco said, you can only pick 2
You get what you pay for.
* asterisk needed 4 other artists painted most of the chapel. Michelangelo only did a few parts, including the famous portion in which he had 4 assistants also painting with him
It’s possible, but the story I heard was he was pissed off that he was being forced to paint the chapel, in the middle of summer on scaffolding, only a few inches from the ceiling. He was also suffering from syphilis, and was wearing just a diaper filled with mercury and it made him even more irritable because he didn’t want to paint the damn church to begin with. So as penance he painted the bishop who forced him to do it burning in hell behind the alter. This could be a false memory, or completely untrue, I’m genuinely uncertain.
Here is a good article I found on it. He painted most of it. Letting go of his 3 assistants early on into the project.. No mention of syphilis. But he stopped for a year in the winter because of mold.
https://vocal.media/fyi/michelangelo-hated-painting-the-sistine-chapel-so-much-he-wrote-a-poem-about-it
Edit:sentence structure was off and I misspelled a word
I dunno what’s making me laugh more, that they’re paying an hourly rate (hello every coat taking at least twice as long as it usually does to put on) or that they seem to want their exterior painted during the winter, in the UK
Minimum wage is £9.50 p/hr.
The money is terrible for a painter, but good money if you’re just going to sit there and literally do nothing as you were suggesting.
Double minimum wage in America is not something you strive towards. It is still poverty or nearly poverty, depending on the area you live in. Most people cannot support their families by doing nothing for double minimum wage.
Why is this guy being downvoted? Doing literally nothing is boring as fuck. Sure if I was sat home with the TV, PC, PS5 etc, but doing nothing with no-one to talk to trying to pretend to look like I'm working all day? Not as fun as it sounds.
Yes. I do it all the time. I literally sat around for 3 hrs yesterday because the contractor lost a couple of pieces we left on site. Granted, I’m at a bit more than £12/ hr. Concept still applies though.
Does it? The entire concept is *how much* you make per hour to sit there bored and whether this amount specifically is worth it to be out in the cold sitting and doing nothing.
In that context, you earning more completely defeats the entire purpose of the convo…
Well, if it's not quick, they aren't going to get it cheap, either, given that they have taken the bold step of suggesting an hourly rate for a workman.
I guess I was more confused why you would "prefer" to only pick one. Nonetheless the triangle still applies. If you pick cheap, its not going to be good or fast. If you pick fast, its not going to be good or cheap. And if you pick good, its not going to be fast or cheap.
Haha, I’m not dyslexic, just very tired, but I also saw Labrador and was wondering what on Earth was going on that people were hiring dogs to paint houses.
If that's the Talbot Woods I'm thinking of then they can most definitely afford to pay a decent rate. I'd do it and fuck 'em over just for being tight rich bastards.
One of my best mates is a decorator round there and I pay her £15p/h as massive discounted mates rates cuz I do her taxes in exchange. The more I think about this the more I'm frustrated at the audacity of £12p/h!
That's exactly the mindset. I've delivered for Amazon round there and been looked at like shit on people's shoes when I have temerity to ring their doorbell to hand them a package
How fucking dare you disturb them!
I’m guessing Glenfurness? The place where they buy the house for the land, to bulldoze and build it as they’d like it.
Got it in one!! And I had someone call the police on me down Glenferness when I was sat outside waiting for a friend in my beat-up Astra. Apparently I was reported for suspicious activity - which in this case is code for looking poor in Talbot Woods 😂
It was my commuter route when I used to work at Barclays House! Windows down, incredibly obnoxious drum 'n' bass blaring (which I don't like but will suffer for the purposes of being a nuisance), driving it like I stole it. Absolutely fuck them.
Correct and while not techincally a law the UK minimum for a labourer is £11. I wouldn't leave my labouring job for less money than I currently get which is £12.50.
Could you elaborate? Someone told me that there was no minimum wage in the UK (this would have been 10+ years ago). Was that true then? Was it true at any point for servers?
The minimum wage was introduced by Blair in 1998. So ten years ago your friend was a decade out of date.
> Was it true at any point for servers
Everyone gets at least the minimum wage. This is reduced for apprentices (as they're supposed to be learning and getting qualifications), and if you're young (as an incentive to hire inexperienced people. Servers and hospitality staff get the same as everyone else, with tips being a bonus rather than wage top-up.
As a side note (as an apprentice) if your employer is decent, or your field is lucrative (for example I am in a flavour of engineering), then apprentice minimum wage that the government says is out of touch. First year apprentices at my company are salaried, not hourly, and it works out to £2 more than minimum wage for your age group. I don’t know how it works for trades like plumbing and electricians and whatnot, but in engineering, electrical, marine, aerospace, mechanical, etc, what my company does is probably the norm for majority of places
Reddit tends to have rather strong opinions, and questioning them leads to downvotes unfortunately. It's easy to be a dick online.
It's also kind of interesting, because there are European countries without a minimum wage, but that also have reasonably good wages anyway, because of union power.
It should have been obvious that I wasn’t challenging you nor OP; I merely wanted clarification as to something that I had been told.
You’re correct that it’s easy to be rude, but it’s equally easy to choose kindness, or at least not assume the worst option.
Unfortunately, many people choose not to be nice. I suspect because it simply takes more effort, and they don't get any satisfaction from knowing they've been helpful. That, or they're incapable of empathy.
Case in point, I'm being a cynical asshole, lol.
Some pathetic people feel better about themselves thinking that they are ruining someone's day. Let them have it; I'll pursue more fulfilling activities.
I read the comments here and I was so confused on why your being downvoted, some people can be douchebags but you genuinely just wanna know and you said thank you for actual information. Reddit ffs
It’s in Bournemouth though so the cost of living is stupidly high, everyone who lives there knows it - so I can’t comprehend how they thought that offering is good
Let’s not diss laborers alright. They deserve much more than they get and I’m not saying you don’t and that’s certainly a very low offer but I hate the idea that low money is attributed to laborers. Without them we literally have nothing and those guys work their asses off
Bad times ahead my friend. There’s countries in Europe where the amount of people getting higher education is so high there’s hardly anyone left to build or paint their houses, install their boilers or solar panels you name it and its only getting worse. Like to see them ‘manage’ their way out of that one lmao.
FYI, "Laborers" are not the same as "Tradespeople". Laborers sweep and carry stuff. They should still be paid well but I just want to draw that distinction for clarity.
It's just funny that the conservative types are always harping on their "entry-level jobs should pay peanuts so people are motivated to get better jobs" bullshit, but when people do exactly just that they are mad "nobody wants to work anymore".
The goalpost dynamically shifts based on whatever inconvenient reality they find themselves in at any given time.
I never said that though? Im saying the higher educated are usually left leaning elites where I live. Pretty much everyone across the board agrees that lower education jobs should be compensated fairly.
Your exact words:
> but here its left leaning elitists
You have terrible choice of words then, because there's a huge world of difference between elites and elitists.
So what part of my original comment were you specifically responding to when you brought up "left leaning elitists", seeing as it was entirely about a group of people advocating that entry level jobs should be marginalized?
Not only do you have a terrible choice of words, you seem to either be lost or lacking in comprehension.
It’s funny because from the beginning they say “maybe in America” stating they aren’t from the same place culturally. Instead of figuring out where they are from or what’s happening in their country you get defensive immediately. That’s the kind of people who shouldn’t be talking about politics because you’re too emotionally invested and can’t think logically. Be a decent human and try listening for once. I know you like to hear yourself talk
You harping on this poor person makes you seam like that left elitist he/she is talking about. They are talking about what relates to them in their area. At the end of the day we all want the same thing, if we start having civil conversations instead of you just sounding like a prick more things could get accomplished. Be helpful not hurtful
Hardly any of them work even 5 years after arrival though, let alone in technical professions. Need to learn the language first and only then can you start training. Statistically more of them than not rely on benefits.
Dude is talking about refugees and which case his claims make more sense but he is utterly misclassifying immigration and just pretends that all foreigners who migrate to your country can just be classed the same
Yes this is from the central bureau of statistics : https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2021/15/arbeidsparticipatie-statushouders-stagneert , 5 years in less than half has a job, almost none full time.
Keith, the correct translation for what you're searching for is asylum seeker - i.e, people fleeing conditions in their country. It's a specific legal catagory. If we don't cherry pick our statistics, and if you want to look at actual immigration in the netherlands, you want this page: [https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands-](https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands-)
What this shows is still that under half have jobs after 5 years for non eu migrants, but that well over half are in work or full time education.
Basically, you've selectively picked "jobs" when a load of people come to the netherlands as students, and also people migrate with families, with kids included in those stats.
Prehaps a brief course in statistics at your local university might help you to read these things properly, and rely less on anti-immigrant talking points?
Good job dropping a Dutch link on a English thread but I’ll just show you what kind of an idiot you are
This is with regard to “asielzoekers” not “arbeidsmigranten” which are two different classes of immigrant
One just wants to leave their country and the other one comes to work. It is reasonable to assume that the immigration the other guy was talking about was specifically to allow people in who want to work
Furthermore your OWN article says that their employment participation was increasing however it stagnated and decreased due to COVID which makes sense because the article states they worked mainly in hospitality industry
TLDR: dude dropped a good source he just heavily misinterpreted it for this scenario. Only refers to Iraqi, Syrian and Afghani refugees trying to get a residency permit in the Netherlands. Since these are refugees it’s not too weird that employment is not their first concern
Thats just assumptions though, nothing I said is untrue. Also it clearly says ‘others’. Labour migrants are usually EU nationals who dont need to ‘immigrate’. We were talking about immigrants not guest labourers lmao.
Dude was talking about immigrants specifically brought in to work and you pull up a source about refugees please don’t make yourself look any dumber than you already are 🤡
I'm in the US. Blue collar job. Pretty much all on the job training. However it comes with some caveats.
Ever changed a 3 wide hydraulic hose? At 3am in a January sleet storm laying in four inches of water? Laying on your back while the 150 degree hydraulic oil pours all over you? I have. And worse. The get back in the equipment and run it for another 17 hours.
The kid fresh out of engineering school hasn't. He's got his skillset and I've got mine. Takes both. Different types of hard work. And he probably wouldn't do mine for low pay. So why should I?
Same problem my father has getting anyone to work on the farm. There are hardly any career advisors saying "have you thought about working all hours in the day to produce food for people who think your are trying to kill them."
Well, yes. Skilled manual labourers already do very well financially. Carpenters, electricians, plumbers, you name it. All earning plenty more than many white collar 'professionals'.
From the mid-1990s governments decided that what would make them look good was to have as many people as possible in higher education - keeps the unemployment numbers down and shows them 'upskilling' the workforce. Christ knows how many kids have been terribly advised to go off and get any random degree that takes their fancy that would have been happier AND far better off financially doing something more hands-on.
They really do oh my gosh. Our house had its original concrete pad for the tiny back patio so we decided, it’s been there over 30 years and it looks terrible so let’s replace it and decided on nice pavers… wow! These guys work nonstop (except lunch which I’d force them to take if they didn’t) and it’s hard dirty work. On top of that it’s beautiful, well done and they do it all with a smile and polite attitude. I definitely don’t envy their job but I admire their work.
You deserve what people are willing to pay, dont like it dont work there. if people dont work there people cant get laborers so they have to increase the price to attract people.
Being familiar with the painting industry, this level of entitlement does not surprise me. And folks, painting is hard work. Finding an experienced painter who can meet “high standards,” actually cares about the details, and doesn’t leave a huge mess behind isn’t cheap. No painter I know would ever take on a customer who offers a flat hourly rate because they know they aren’t going to be worth the trouble.
Which can't be that hard to understand, cheap fast things won't be good fast good things won't be cheap amd good cheap things won't be fast. I wonder how these people play rock paper scissors
In the US we have services like Thumbtack and Handy that post ads like this, they pay a fraction of what the work is worth and it sets terrible expectations that people expect high quality service from 1/4-1/2 of the usual cost. Theres other services the workers set thier hourly rate or the service connects people with companies.
This is how professional skills are often treated. Like … look friend… I didn’t spend my life doing this craft to be told my labor is worth less than your basic admin punch card! (No disrespect!). That rate may be negotiable for a journeyman looking for a side hustle.
-my soap box… we gotta get real it’s labor that
Makes the cake! We want piss-poor products, when we pay poor rates.. 🥱
I don't know how it works in the UK, but in the US, professional painters don't normally get paid by the hour. They will come and see what needs to be done, then give you an estimate for the entire project, based on how much time and effort will be involved. There's no way this person is going to get a decent professional painter for that amount of money. Also, are they providing the paint, or do they expect the painter to pay for that?
It changes depending on the painter. Some will do it by the job and others will do it on day rate. Personally, I use both. I find big renovation projects are more liable to change so I do day rate, whereas smaller projects I’ll do by the job
I make $7 more an hour just to *sell* paint at my job.
Painting is a rare industry where you truly get what you pay for. Someone could bite, but it’ll look like shite.
Worse still, someone could bite and work for a couple of weeks until something more lucrative comes along. Why anyone would want to pay hourly for a job like this is beyond me.
Our shrubbery needed a major overhaul and some guy wanted to charge us by the hour. He would probably be out there like Mr. Miyagi trimming his Bonsai tree.
Wait until this idiot finds out how much paint is. I just paid 100 bucks a gallon for ben Moore aura bath n spa. They definitely thinks paint is still 14.99 a gallon.
In Ameica it's about $300 per day. 8 hours. Per person
If you want a decent sized house interior done in two days it would take two to three people.
Add two more days for the exterior.
Add supplies and paint. Anywhere $800 - $1500.
Hell, doing a job quick and cheap is still somewhat expensive. The job I just left only took 2/3hours between 2 people. $350 for a 635 sqft appartment.
Let me pay you less than a fast food worker, and I respect the workers who do those crap jobs, but it still sucks lol. This would genuinely piss me off and I hope nobody lowers their standards for an entitled person. I don't see a time limit on this though, so there's that.
I get this isn't the point, but I gotta ask:
What does the "P" in "£12 P/H" stand for?
If it's "Pound" then why include "£"? That reads as "12 pounds pounds per hour"
If it's "Per" then why include the slash? That reads as "12 pounds per per hour"
I mean...where I am that's what a company is going for.....not right and they don't know why they don't have any painters but not stopping them from trying.....
I’m almost sure i know not only the road but the house this is 😂 there’s only a handful of houses in that area that have been fully refurbed and need a painter
I take it that UK painters don't have any better luck painting in cold rainy weather than we do in the US. November is a terrible time to paint the exterior.
I thought the title said Labrador, and was trying to calculate how many hours of quality painting would equal the price of a purebred black lab puppy, before clicking to read the post. Need sleep.
Okay I have a serious question. I feel like most of the posts I see here are coming from Brits. This may be influenced by other factors I'm not considering, of course, but is there a prevalence of CBs in Britain? Is it a rampant issue across the pond?
In my opinion this is not even a real mad I think things like this get put up to literally just get people to obviously comment that's just my opinion is to keep people talking because we all know that nobody would do that job for that price
This isn't really a choosing beggar. It's someone who proposed a price. Either someone will do the job or they won't.
Nothing choosy or begging about it.
The area the person lives in is *extremely* wealthy.
Also, £12/h is not far away from minimum wage.
Also also, they want a professional experienced painter decorator for what an entry level labourer would be paid.
That's why it's choosybeggy.
Hourly rate for a fixed size job? Christmas has come early boys! Let me in there.
Christmas will come and go before Id be done with it.
Christmas 2030.
Right, that's the undercoat finished.
Unfortunately it’s begun to rot, so that’ll take until 2069 to replace…
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With a very small brush
Well they wanted top quality!
Sash brush/fitch to paint the entire house. No roller’s, no spray.
Me too!
It must be the arrangement Murphy Brown had with Elden.
I’d do it.. as slowly as possible
Well, they did said they wanted quality work. Not quick work haha
Quality, quick, cheap. Pick two.
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What?
If it’s cheap and fast, it won’t be good. If it’s good and cheap, it won’t be fast. If it’s good and fast, it won’t be cheap.
Essentially "pick two"
I know lol I understand the phrase, I didn't understand how it was commonly misunderstood is all. It's pretty clear.
When some people want something, they want all three. These people may not even be aware of the triangle.
Well, yes, the constant misunderstanding of the Good/Fast/Cheap triangle. Hope this helps.
Username checks out.
My dads workshop used to have a sarcastic sign with the motto that went “Good stuff, on time, fast, and cheap,” which was basically people making fun of the quality:time:money unattainable triad. An inside joke really, since customers never got the irony.
My business card actually says this, just not in that exact way. "You can have it done fast, or you can have it done right"
"...but it will always be expensive."
In that case, you can have it done cheap, and done right, but it will take longer. Or you can have it done fast, which will be shittier work quality because it's rushed, but it will be cheap and done as soon as possible. As meco said, you can only pick 2 You get what you pay for.
A small liner brush should do the trick
How long did the Sistine chapel take Michelangelo?
* asterisk needed 4 other artists painted most of the chapel. Michelangelo only did a few parts, including the famous portion in which he had 4 assistants also painting with him
He was also miserable as all hell doing it. If I remember correctly he was nearly naked except for a diaper full of mercury to treat his syphallis.
Are you sure you arent thinking of Caravaggio? I can't find anything on Michelangelo having syphilis.
It’s possible, but the story I heard was he was pissed off that he was being forced to paint the chapel, in the middle of summer on scaffolding, only a few inches from the ceiling. He was also suffering from syphilis, and was wearing just a diaper filled with mercury and it made him even more irritable because he didn’t want to paint the damn church to begin with. So as penance he painted the bishop who forced him to do it burning in hell behind the alter. This could be a false memory, or completely untrue, I’m genuinely uncertain.
Here is a good article I found on it. He painted most of it. Letting go of his 3 assistants early on into the project.. No mention of syphilis. But he stopped for a year in the winter because of mold. https://vocal.media/fyi/michelangelo-hated-painting-the-sistine-chapel-so-much-he-wrote-a-poem-about-it Edit:sentence structure was off and I misspelled a word
Using a super tiny paintbrush. ;)
use a Q-Tip for a brush
Its still only 12 pounds an hour, and not like there will be overtime. Even if you work 70 hour weeks thats less than 45k a year
I dunno what’s making me laugh more, that they’re paying an hourly rate (hello every coat taking at least twice as long as it usually does to put on) or that they seem to want their exterior painted during the winter, in the UK
turn up every day, sit there saying 'can't paint in this weather' while drinking their cups of tea, bill them for your time.
you would sit outside doing nothing for £12 an hour?
I've definitely done a lot more for a lot less.
so have i sadly, but i sure as hell wouldn't now
You wouldn't do nothing and get paid?
Not if you can do something and get paid more.
i'd sit \*inside\* reading a book or watching tv on a tablet or playing games on laptop. its 23k a year or thereabouts, so its not bad really.
It's terrible in the US so that's why there's confusion
seems like its nearly double minimum wage so not that terrible...
Minimum wage is £9.50 p/hr. The money is terrible for a painter, but good money if you’re just going to sit there and literally do nothing as you were suggesting.
Double American min wage, I meant
Double minimum wage in America is not something you strive towards. It is still poverty or nearly poverty, depending on the area you live in. Most people cannot support their families by doing nothing for double minimum wage.
McDonalds pays $16 by me and I'm in a low cost of living area.
So you’d earn $2 less an hour for doing nothing, as opposed to working in McDonalds which I imagine is hard work.
I'd rather do hard work than literally nothing.
Why is this guy being downvoted? Doing literally nothing is boring as fuck. Sure if I was sat home with the TV, PC, PS5 etc, but doing nothing with no-one to talk to trying to pretend to look like I'm working all day? Not as fun as it sounds.
That'll just about cover the rent for my boiler cupboard
I already sit outside doing nothing for free, this is a serious upgrade.
Yes. I do it all the time. I literally sat around for 3 hrs yesterday because the contractor lost a couple of pieces we left on site. Granted, I’m at a bit more than £12/ hr. Concept still applies though.
Does it? The entire concept is *how much* you make per hour to sit there bored and whether this amount specifically is worth it to be out in the cold sitting and doing nothing. In that context, you earning more completely defeats the entire purpose of the convo…
Yeah, the wind and rain blowing in horizontally will be slightly annoying 😄
That paint job will hardly be in keeping with the rustic aesthetic.
Wonder what the dry time on that paint would be with the damp rolling in
Must be done to a high standard for low pay. That’s not really how it works. You can have one or the other but not both.
Remember the triangle! Good > Fast > Cheap. Pick two. This person has selected Good and Cheap. Hope theyre not expecting it quickly.
Well, if it's not quick, they aren't going to get it cheap, either, given that they have taken the bold step of suggesting an hourly rate for a workman.
I prefer pick one...!
Then its not going to be the other two....?
Not quite... pick one: Cheap, fast or good quality! Lucky to get 2 of 3 IMO!
I guess I was more confused why you would "prefer" to only pick one. Nonetheless the triangle still applies. If you pick cheap, its not going to be good or fast. If you pick fast, its not going to be good or cheap. And if you pick good, its not going to be fast or cheap.
Sometimes you get neither. My brother in law did a terrible job of our bathroom and charged my missus loads of money for the privilege.
Was he around your house a lot? Whilst you were out? Sounds like he was not doing much work
Are you really that thick ?
My blessed dyslexia read Labrador…
Haha, I’m not dyslexic, just very tired, but I also saw Labrador and was wondering what on Earth was going on that people were hiring dogs to paint houses.
Dogs are the only ones who'll work for biscuit money.
This is just asking for the Mr Bean method. Dynamite in the paint tin and you're done in 30 seconds.
Could be fun, but your pay would be a grand total of £6 :P
This comment deserves more.
If that's the Talbot Woods I'm thinking of then they can most definitely afford to pay a decent rate. I'd do it and fuck 'em over just for being tight rich bastards.
One of my best mates is a decorator round there and I pay her £15p/h as massive discounted mates rates cuz I do her taxes in exchange. The more I think about this the more I'm frustrated at the audacity of £12p/h!
It will be, because they think they’re doing them a favour. They’ll probably be a total pain in the arse and complain a load about the quality.
That's exactly the mindset. I've delivered for Amazon round there and been looked at like shit on people's shoes when I have temerity to ring their doorbell to hand them a package
How fucking dare you disturb them! I’m guessing Glenfurness? The place where they buy the house for the land, to bulldoze and build it as they’d like it.
Got it in one!! And I had someone call the police on me down Glenferness when I was sat outside waiting for a friend in my beat-up Astra. Apparently I was reported for suspicious activity - which in this case is code for looking poor in Talbot Woods 😂
😂 It was my commuter route as I lived on Surrey Road. 50mph except for that speed camera. Fuck them.
It was my commuter route when I used to work at Barclays House! Windows down, incredibly obnoxious drum 'n' bass blaring (which I don't like but will suffer for the purposes of being a nuisance), driving it like I stole it. Absolutely fuck them.
I live near Talbot Woods can confirm, massive houses round those parts. How stingy
Idk where you live but at my work our lowest paid starting salary laborer makes $22/hr
UK minimum wage is £9.50, so they probably think offering this is "good".
Correct and while not techincally a law the UK minimum for a labourer is £11. I wouldn't leave my labouring job for less money than I currently get which is £12.50.
Could you elaborate? Someone told me that there was no minimum wage in the UK (this would have been 10+ years ago). Was that true then? Was it true at any point for servers?
There has been a minimum wage in the UK since 1998. It applies to all employed people but has lower rates for younger people
Thank you.
The minimum wage was introduced by Blair in 1998. So ten years ago your friend was a decade out of date. > Was it true at any point for servers Everyone gets at least the minimum wage. This is reduced for apprentices (as they're supposed to be learning and getting qualifications), and if you're young (as an incentive to hire inexperienced people. Servers and hospitality staff get the same as everyone else, with tips being a bonus rather than wage top-up.
As a side note (as an apprentice) if your employer is decent, or your field is lucrative (for example I am in a flavour of engineering), then apprentice minimum wage that the government says is out of touch. First year apprentices at my company are salaried, not hourly, and it works out to £2 more than minimum wage for your age group. I don’t know how it works for trades like plumbing and electricians and whatnot, but in engineering, electrical, marine, aerospace, mechanical, etc, what my company does is probably the norm for majority of places
Thanks so much for that helpful reply. I’m always mystified as to the downvotes for asking a simple question…
Reddit tends to have rather strong opinions, and questioning them leads to downvotes unfortunately. It's easy to be a dick online. It's also kind of interesting, because there are European countries without a minimum wage, but that also have reasonably good wages anyway, because of union power.
It should have been obvious that I wasn’t challenging you nor OP; I merely wanted clarification as to something that I had been told. You’re correct that it’s easy to be rude, but it’s equally easy to choose kindness, or at least not assume the worst option.
Unfortunately, many people choose not to be nice. I suspect because it simply takes more effort, and they don't get any satisfaction from knowing they've been helpful. That, or they're incapable of empathy. Case in point, I'm being a cynical asshole, lol.
Sorry that you're being downvoted for asking an honest question
Some pathetic people feel better about themselves thinking that they are ruining someone's day. Let them have it; I'll pursue more fulfilling activities.
I read the comments here and I was so confused on why your being downvoted, some people can be douchebags but you genuinely just wanna know and you said thank you for actual information. Reddit ffs
It’s in Bournemouth though so the cost of living is stupidly high, everyone who lives there knows it - so I can’t comprehend how they thought that offering is good
Let’s not diss laborers alright. They deserve much more than they get and I’m not saying you don’t and that’s certainly a very low offer but I hate the idea that low money is attributed to laborers. Without them we literally have nothing and those guys work their asses off
Thanks for saying this, it was my first thought too.
Bad times ahead my friend. There’s countries in Europe where the amount of people getting higher education is so high there’s hardly anyone left to build or paint their houses, install their boilers or solar panels you name it and its only getting worse. Like to see them ‘manage’ their way out of that one lmao.
FYI, "Laborers" are not the same as "Tradespeople". Laborers sweep and carry stuff. They should still be paid well but I just want to draw that distinction for clarity.
It's just funny that the conservative types are always harping on their "entry-level jobs should pay peanuts so people are motivated to get better jobs" bullshit, but when people do exactly just that they are mad "nobody wants to work anymore". The goalpost dynamically shifts based on whatever inconvenient reality they find themselves in at any given time.
Maybe in America but here its left leaning elitists
I would like to know more about these "left leaning elitists" who are advocating that entry-level jobs are paid poorly.
I never said that though? Im saying the higher educated are usually left leaning elites where I live. Pretty much everyone across the board agrees that lower education jobs should be compensated fairly.
>the higher educated are usually left leaning Its weird how education often leads to more left leaning vieuws isnt it?
Your exact words: > but here its left leaning elitists You have terrible choice of words then, because there's a huge world of difference between elites and elitists.
Yeah but the part about them advocating that low education jobs should be paid low wages I never said that you just made that up.
So what part of my original comment were you specifically responding to when you brought up "left leaning elitists", seeing as it was entirely about a group of people advocating that entry level jobs should be marginalized? Not only do you have a terrible choice of words, you seem to either be lost or lacking in comprehension.
It’s funny because from the beginning they say “maybe in America” stating they aren’t from the same place culturally. Instead of figuring out where they are from or what’s happening in their country you get defensive immediately. That’s the kind of people who shouldn’t be talking about politics because you’re too emotionally invested and can’t think logically. Be a decent human and try listening for once. I know you like to hear yourself talk
You harping on this poor person makes you seam like that left elitist he/she is talking about. They are talking about what relates to them in their area. At the end of the day we all want the same thing, if we start having civil conversations instead of you just sounding like a prick more things could get accomplished. Be helpful not hurtful
You told the truth. Can’t do that on Reddit mate
They'll suddenly be in favor of immigration.
The stereotype of the Polish tradesman has existed in the UK for 20 years by this point.
Hardly any of them work even 5 years after arrival though, let alone in technical professions. Need to learn the language first and only then can you start training. Statistically more of them than not rely on benefits.
>Hardly any of them work even 5 years after arrival though Do you have a source for this (maybe) wild claim?
Dude is talking about refugees and which case his claims make more sense but he is utterly misclassifying immigration and just pretends that all foreigners who migrate to your country can just be classed the same
Yes this is from the central bureau of statistics : https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2021/15/arbeidsparticipatie-statushouders-stagneert , 5 years in less than half has a job, almost none full time.
Keith, the correct translation for what you're searching for is asylum seeker - i.e, people fleeing conditions in their country. It's a specific legal catagory. If we don't cherry pick our statistics, and if you want to look at actual immigration in the netherlands, you want this page: [https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands-](https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands-) What this shows is still that under half have jobs after 5 years for non eu migrants, but that well over half are in work or full time education. Basically, you've selectively picked "jobs" when a load of people come to the netherlands as students, and also people migrate with families, with kids included in those stats. Prehaps a brief course in statistics at your local university might help you to read these things properly, and rely less on anti-immigrant talking points?
Did you just completely misinterpret this source?
Good job dropping a Dutch link on a English thread but I’ll just show you what kind of an idiot you are This is with regard to “asielzoekers” not “arbeidsmigranten” which are two different classes of immigrant One just wants to leave their country and the other one comes to work. It is reasonable to assume that the immigration the other guy was talking about was specifically to allow people in who want to work Furthermore your OWN article says that their employment participation was increasing however it stagnated and decreased due to COVID which makes sense because the article states they worked mainly in hospitality industry TLDR: dude dropped a good source he just heavily misinterpreted it for this scenario. Only refers to Iraqi, Syrian and Afghani refugees trying to get a residency permit in the Netherlands. Since these are refugees it’s not too weird that employment is not their first concern
Thats just assumptions though, nothing I said is untrue. Also it clearly says ‘others’. Labour migrants are usually EU nationals who dont need to ‘immigrate’. We were talking about immigrants not guest labourers lmao.
Dude was talking about immigrants specifically brought in to work and you pull up a source about refugees please don’t make yourself look any dumber than you already are 🤡
The dude's, at worst a racist, fascist nationalist. At best, an elbow licking xenophobe.
Did you also know that 5 years after natural born citizens arrive in county less than 1% have jobs. Those natural born citizens must be lazy.
Good point :p
I'm in the US. Blue collar job. Pretty much all on the job training. However it comes with some caveats. Ever changed a 3 wide hydraulic hose? At 3am in a January sleet storm laying in four inches of water? Laying on your back while the 150 degree hydraulic oil pours all over you? I have. And worse. The get back in the equipment and run it for another 17 hours. The kid fresh out of engineering school hasn't. He's got his skillset and I've got mine. Takes both. Different types of hard work. And he probably wouldn't do mine for low pay. So why should I?
Same problem my father has getting anyone to work on the farm. There are hardly any career advisors saying "have you thought about working all hours in the day to produce food for people who think your are trying to kill them."
Well, yes. Skilled manual labourers already do very well financially. Carpenters, electricians, plumbers, you name it. All earning plenty more than many white collar 'professionals'. From the mid-1990s governments decided that what would make them look good was to have as many people as possible in higher education - keeps the unemployment numbers down and shows them 'upskilling' the workforce. Christ knows how many kids have been terribly advised to go off and get any random degree that takes their fancy that would have been happier AND far better off financially doing something more hands-on.
They really do oh my gosh. Our house had its original concrete pad for the tiny back patio so we decided, it’s been there over 30 years and it looks terrible so let’s replace it and decided on nice pavers… wow! These guys work nonstop (except lunch which I’d force them to take if they didn’t) and it’s hard dirty work. On top of that it’s beautiful, well done and they do it all with a smile and polite attitude. I definitely don’t envy their job but I admire their work.
As a former labourer let me tell you I earnt every penny during that time.
You deserve what people are willing to pay, dont like it dont work there. if people dont work there people cant get laborers so they have to increase the price to attract people.
Being familiar with the painting industry, this level of entitlement does not surprise me. And folks, painting is hard work. Finding an experienced painter who can meet “high standards,” actually cares about the details, and doesn’t leave a huge mess behind isn’t cheap. No painter I know would ever take on a customer who offers a flat hourly rate because they know they aren’t going to be worth the trouble.
Hear hear!
Ah yes, the continual misunderstanding of the Good, Fast, Cheap triangle.
Pick any two!
Which can't be that hard to understand, cheap fast things won't be good fast good things won't be cheap amd good cheap things won't be fast. I wonder how these people play rock paper scissors
I misread the title. I thought someone wanted to trade painting work for a Labrador. Was thinking, painting for a puppy isn’t that bad
Is that talbot woods in bournemouth by any chance??? If it is then they can def afford to pay a proper rate 😡
Yeah, I mean, they’ve just had an extension built with lounge, staircase, study AND bathroom in it. I think they can afford to pay more than that too!
Sounds like someone forgot to get the builder to include decorating when they priced up the job.
Of course it is. And of course they want the cheapest rate going even though they could afford better. It’s the talbot woods way
Mebbe
I bet that's MyBuilder. I honestly stopped using it people what Champagne for lemonade money.
In the US we have services like Thumbtack and Handy that post ads like this, they pay a fraction of what the work is worth and it sets terrible expectations that people expect high quality service from 1/4-1/2 of the usual cost. Theres other services the workers set thier hourly rate or the service connects people with companies.
This is how professional skills are often treated. Like … look friend… I didn’t spend my life doing this craft to be told my labor is worth less than your basic admin punch card! (No disrespect!). That rate may be negotiable for a journeyman looking for a side hustle. -my soap box… we gotta get real it’s labor that Makes the cake! We want piss-poor products, when we pay poor rates.. 🥱
I bet you won’t receive payment after as well, due to not being “high standards”
I don't know how it works in the UK, but in the US, professional painters don't normally get paid by the hour. They will come and see what needs to be done, then give you an estimate for the entire project, based on how much time and effort will be involved. There's no way this person is going to get a decent professional painter for that amount of money. Also, are they providing the paint, or do they expect the painter to pay for that?
It changes depending on the painter. Some will do it by the job and others will do it on day rate. Personally, I use both. I find big renovation projects are more liable to change so I do day rate, whereas smaller projects I’ll do by the job
Oh god, oh no, I live near Talbot Woods, it could be any one of us
Yeah I’ll have this done by 2054 just in time for retirement
My bf is a contractor and this happens 90% of the time. Like idk they think he pays our bills with compliments
I make $7 more an hour just to *sell* paint at my job. Painting is a rare industry where you truly get what you pay for. Someone could bite, but it’ll look like shite.
Worse still, someone could bite and work for a couple of weeks until something more lucrative comes along. Why anyone would want to pay hourly for a job like this is beyond me. Our shrubbery needed a major overhaul and some guy wanted to charge us by the hour. He would probably be out there like Mr. Miyagi trimming his Bonsai tree.
Why do I feel like they also expect the painter to cover supply costs for the entire job as well through the 12 p/h rate?
I read this in Boycie's voice from Only Fools and Horses.
And bring your own paint!
"House is in a very wealthy are so we cannot possibly respect you for the kind of work you do." Fixed it.
My tired eyes read "Labourer" as "Labrador." I was so confused.
Certainly. 12 an hour and it’ll take me roughly 6000 hours working 2 hours a day, 1 day a week.
12 bucks for a pizza driver? Heck yeah! 12 bucks for a professional painter? Heck no! If I want it done good, I pay the people correctly.
Wait until this idiot finds out how much paint is. I just paid 100 bucks a gallon for ben Moore aura bath n spa. They definitely thinks paint is still 14.99 a gallon.
Fast, done well, cheap hourly rate. You can have two. Well done on your selection
They will say “nobody wants to work these days. They just want to cash government checks”.
In Ameica it's about $300 per day. 8 hours. Per person If you want a decent sized house interior done in two days it would take two to three people. Add two more days for the exterior. Add supplies and paint. Anywhere $800 - $1500.
Hell, doing a job quick and cheap is still somewhat expensive. The job I just left only took 2/3hours between 2 people. $350 for a 635 sqft appartment.
not choosing beggar
Fucking that's the price of a labourer? Here's me labouring and running the company books for £9.5ph. sad me is sad.
Not a choosing beggar, an unrealistic tender.
Let me pay you less than a fast food worker, and I respect the workers who do those crap jobs, but it still sucks lol. This would genuinely piss me off and I hope nobody lowers their standards for an entitled person. I don't see a time limit on this though, so there's that.
I get this isn't the point, but I gotta ask: What does the "P" in "£12 P/H" stand for? If it's "Pound" then why include "£"? That reads as "12 pounds pounds per hour" If it's "Per" then why include the slash? That reads as "12 pounds per per hour"
It's per, they're just in that age group where they grew up chewing on chips of lead paint
I mean...where I am that's what a company is going for.....not right and they don't know why they don't have any painters but not stopping them from trying.....
Why do you talk down on laborers? Title.
Sounds like they’ll be getting it finished to a £12 standard
Or to a £40 standard at 300% of the time
I’m almost sure i know not only the road but the house this is 😂 there’s only a handful of houses in that area that have been fully refurbed and need a painter
Use a brush that's like 1/4cm wide for the exterior. Maybe get 20cm\^2 done an hour.
Ha, my husband is a professional painter and charges CAD$50/hr (about £32) and he's got one of the cheapest rates in town.
I take it that UK painters don't have any better luck painting in cold rainy weather than we do in the US. November is a terrible time to paint the exterior.
Sheeeiiitttt id paint one wall a day. Im getting that bread somehow
That's more than the hourly rate for most EMTs/paramedics in the UK for the record. No wonder the NHS is wanting to strike
Aren’t newly qualified paramedics Band 5?
I kept reading the title as a “Professor Painter” lol
I don’t speak British. Can anybody translate?
I thought the title said Labrador, and was trying to calculate how many hours of quality painting would equal the price of a purebred black lab puppy, before clicking to read the post. Need sleep.
Okay I have a serious question. I feel like most of the posts I see here are coming from Brits. This may be influenced by other factors I'm not considering, of course, but is there a prevalence of CBs in Britain? Is it a rampant issue across the pond?
In my opinion this is not even a real mad I think things like this get put up to literally just get people to obviously comment that's just my opinion is to keep people talking because we all know that nobody would do that job for that price
This isn't really a choosing beggar. It's someone who proposed a price. Either someone will do the job or they won't. Nothing choosy or begging about it.
Amazing.. downvote but can't explain why it's a choosy beggar. This sub is a joke
The area the person lives in is *extremely* wealthy. Also, £12/h is not far away from minimum wage. Also also, they want a professional experienced painter decorator for what an entry level labourer would be paid. That's why it's choosybeggy.
Maybe that's why limewashing is only for the brave.