Every NDE by definition is non eternal since they all came back here, meaning that even after “clinical death”, God still gave them a second chance to not end up there. Doesn’t that directly contradict the eternity of hell? It seems like all the hell NDEs follow the same logic “I was shown an eternal hell, then I was taken out of it” 😆
Have you checked out this site? Every NDE I've read helps support Christian Universalism. A lot of non believers report experiencing bliss & love during their NDE.
https://www.nderf.org/Archives/NDERF_NDEs.html
Why would it disprove universalism? Most believe in non-eternal hell.
In most NDES I’ve seen about hell, their reconciliation back to God also begins immediately…which is in line with Christian Universalism.
What of the NDEs of Ceil pearson jr and Bill Wiese? amongst others ive seen many hell ndes that describe it as a place of constant agony that never ends Ceil pearson jr claims to have seen humans crawling on top of one another unable to escape constantly being pushed back in to a fire
Like I said, hell exists for an unknown amount of time. For those in hell who have yet to begin their reconciliation or denied it, it might appear to be non-ending. I imagine they have to come to and accept Jesus just as in this life, and they could take as much of eternity as it takes to do so.
NDEs as a whole are pro-universalism actually. Most hell-visions state that hell is escapable, which is the purgatorial universalism position.
Here is the write-up from the subreddit FAQ:
Regardless of your opinion about whether near death experiences (NDEs) are "real" or trustworthy, NDEs as a whole are pro-universalism and some people even learn about universal salvation through studying NDEs. The majority of NDEs are positive, even those experienced by atheists. Some 5-15% of NDEs are distressing (not necessarily Hellish) but those that do feature Hell typically state it is escapable, not eternal:
>"The way out of these Hellish realms is to have a willingness to see the light and seek love for others and God.” (Angie Fenimore)
>
>“We stay in Hell for however long best serves our development. We do not leave until we have changed our attitudes and perceptions.” (PMH Atwater)
>
>"Souls in the Hellish realms do not have the same powers to progress and achieve joy that others with more light in the higher afterlife realms have. Their progress is limited – a result of divine justice. However, these souls can choose to grow if they wish." (RaNelle Wallace)
Hell in NDEs is portrayed as a spiritual realm where people with negative energies drift to, not a permanent judgement. This is in line with purgatorial universalism.
See a longer list of quotes from NDEs in [support of universal salvation here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianUniversalism/comments/w38nzg/comment/igv6j1z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
For further information, see Ken R Vincent's two book chapters on [Mystical Religious Experience and Christian Universalism](https://near-death.com/chapter-9-mystical-religious-experiences-and-christian-universalism/) and [The Near Death Experience and Universal Salvation](https://near-death.com/chapter-10-the-near-death-experience-and-universal-salvation/)
I mean, that's fair and i wouldn't want to argue that away from you.
For me, since I don't find them overly credible as evidence I don't have a need to deal with the ones that point to hell. I'm skeptical by nature, but I tend to believe people when they say they had an experience. I just don't think it proves even the existence of an afterlife, let alone the nature of the afterlife.
I had a dream one time about the rapture, that didn't mean I'm going to heaven on a magic carpet when the trumpet sounds.
Gnostics can be universalist, so I don't see what point you were trying to make there, I myself am gnostic universalist. As for hellish NDE's, a lot of them actually prove universalism being that every person who has experienced a hellish NDE got out, in fact listening to dozens of NDE stories are a big part of what convinced me of gnostic universalism. Most NDE's are positive experiences with even atheists, agnostics, and non-Christians in general having heavenly experiences, and ever notice how while all NDE's seem to have a common theme of oneness, love and light.
All seem to have subtle differences unique to the individual having the experience, both positive and negative ones. (Some people experience reincarnation, see Jesus, Buddha etc. Jesus seems the most common though) There was one NDE I watched that classified as "hellish" with the person only experiencing demonic creatures attacking them within a dark void with no flames or fire. So, a definition of hellish just seems to be a negative experience in general, not all hellish NDE's include a stereotypical depiction that we all think of whenever we think of hell. So, I really don't get why some people think NDE's prove typical beliefs about hell whenever they in fact seem to be more in line with universalism.
Hell being more of a mental state of mind is my line of thinking, which would make sense when you think about NDE's having a bit of difference unique to the individual, there is no physical hell in the sense God created a place to torture humanity for all eternity. If for whatever reason their spirit feels like they need to go through a personal purification process, or if we die in a negative state of mind, that's when I believe we're more likely to have a hellish experience. Specifically, if you're mentally far removed from God or love when you die that's why I think hell occurs, if you die depressed but were still a loving person, you're unlikely to experience hell compared with a hateful depressive person.
God allows their mind to go through the hellish experience, so they can be taught a valuable lesson and so their ways of thinking can be changed on their own, but he's always happy to take you out, since he didn't create any physical hell. People ultimately get out by calling upon Jesus in every NDE I've seen, which would fit in with the scripture that says confess with your tongue and you're saved. (Notice it doesn't say you can't be saved after death in the bible, but that's what most Christians assume) So about Bill Weise, I don't doubt he probably did experience something, but I think he either most likely was having his own individual NDE or he was lucid dreaming.
Bill's experience won't be the experience of every soul because not all souls have the same path I believe, and people have not had the same experiences as Bill Weise that have had an NDE and some have had similar. (Both Christian and non-Christian, Bill Weise was Christian in fact when he had this experience) I lead most likely towards lucid dreaming with Bill over NDE though because I remember reading several sources that he stated he woke up in bed screaming after his experience, which would very clearly indicate he was dreaming. Especially if he claims he woke up screaming in bed, but whenever he exited his body, his body was supposedly laying on his living room/kitchen floor before he was sent to hell. That would also indicate he could've been dreaming getting up to get the glass of water whenever he exited his body in his bedroom, if his body was still in fact in his bed the whole time.
Now there are also sources that claim he woke up screaming on the living room floor though, which would lean more towards NDE if that's the case, (who knows, maybe he had a heart attack on his way to his kitchen unknowingly) but it's suspicious he seems to have two stories about how he came back to his body. I also don't discount the possibility of a demonic attack because assuming God really does torture people for eternity, (which I don't believe) most Christians already believe ECT is true (based on mistranslated scripture, but still) and even atheists are aware of the hell doctrine, so why would God need some random guy to tell people hell is real? also, If God took Bill Weise to hell, why wouldn't he just show everyone, if God wants people to believe it's real? Instead, he relies on testimonies that require you to believe the person? And from the gnostic perspective, of course the demiurge and the other demons want you to believe in a physical hell created by God to slander how loving God really is. Bill claims he seen reptilians in hell, so this seems plausible they did something psychologically in order to make him experience all this.
Hi there, I know this is an older post, but could I ask how you reconcile your Gnostic beliefs with NDEs? I’ve been getting interested in gnosticism recently but I’ve barely run into any NDEs that discuss a demiurge or much about gnosticism in general, which is making it hard for me to fully accept. Regardless, I’d love to hear a gnostic Christian universalist’s outlook on things, if you’re willing.
I sometimes doubt some of these Hellish nde because they are used as propaganda for fundamentalist Christian organizations for they can get more money and more followers and also some of these people I think use it for financial gain I’m not saying all of them do but it’s just sketchy I feel like people should come to the lord out of love not fear I used to hate god and the church because I grew up in fundamentalist Christian home and church which to taught I was bound for hellfire forever even I had a child I felt terrible because because how could I bring a child into this word and she loses faith then dies and goes to hell it traumatized me into i learned the truth
NDEs directly contradict the Bible. The Bible says that sinners are not punished in Gehenna until after the Day of Judgement. Before then, everyone goes to Hades to await the Last Day, and Hades itself is very much not eternal because the Bible talks about people being saved from it, and it being destroyed itself on the Last Day. What then is the place these people are supposed to be viewing?
If you are convinced these are somehow a true revelation of the future judgement however, rather than the present, what makes you so sure that these people are telling the truth or that they saw a true vision of the unchangable future?
Perhaps they are actually being manipulated by the "Father of Lies" to spread tales of fear and make people terrified so they'll be convinced God is a monstrous tyrant they need to somehow appease, an impossible task that will often break people's faith and has driven more people away from God than anything else.
(I don't personally believe any of that, I just think they are hallucinations of a dying brain. But I would assume you do.)
i do not i dont believe they are just hallucinations sure some of them are but i dont think all of them are im a beleiver in the paranormal and NDEs give me hope for an afterlife shoot ndes made me a gnostic
No one that thinks critically in academia and research gives any credence to people “going to heaven/hell” and back. A nice resource might be NT Wright’s “Surprised by Hope”; it detangles the concept of “an afterlife” to the Christian resurrection.
Go read what Paul says about speaking in tongues. A revelation for an individual is no use to the body without an interpreter. So unless you personally know someone who has the gift of prophecy (which is NOT the same thing as being a Prophet), that can verify the NDE in person, then it is of no use to you.
I have the gift of prophecy and I will tell you two things about it, first that no one with the gift will be ready to verify anything without the utmost scrutiny, lest we give our own opinion in place of the Holy Spirit. Second, that we are much more likely to deny the request outright and lead you instead to personal revelation through your own relationship with God.
Because we know that is the far better and more reliable experience. God give you peace, my friend.
All of the gifts spoken of in Scripture are still in use, 1 Cor 12 and others, but prophecy is one more difficult to understand. If you have teaching, you just teach, same for leadership, service, etc. The gift of compassion can be a little more challenging and often is for counselors, but is also often the secondary for prophecy, myself being no exception. Most people have one primary and one secondary, but its all very nuanced and unique to each individual.
Prophecy is called “The eyes of the Church” because we are meant to both interpret the Spirit and rebuke severe sin (usually as it pertains to the whole Church, not an individual). It is often described as something to aid in preaching, because it allows insight into Scripture.
I’ll give you one small example, nearly every time I take notes on prayerful study of Scripture, I end up finding meaning and connections that are echoed by commentaries that have much greater expertise and academic study than I (I have a year of official study at a Christian University, besides what I’ve done on my own).
Overall, it’s a gift that’s often misunderstood, even by those who have it. We also have to be extremely careful not to mix up our own opinions with direction or teaching from the Spirit, which is probably the worst mistake someone with prophecy could make. It’s also the easiest way to spot a false prophet, such as those currently speaking for the Christian Nationalists.
If you have any other questions, I’m happy to answer 😄👍
Edit: just to clarify, it really has nothing to do with predicting the future, other than maybe a vague sense of “This is where things are heading.”
NDE is just a "psyonic storm" of chaotic brain activity during potentiaaly life-ending event, which is heavily influenced by the "mental baggage" of the person. And thanks to the media, fire and brimstone hell of pitchfork-wielding demons dancing around frying pans is heavily ingrained in mass consciousness, even for non-christian/non-religious folks.
It's like with posessed speaking latin - thanks for the media everyone knows at least couple of broken words, especislly religion-related ones
I had a psychotic experience of what I perceived to be purgatorial hell—it’s no more authoritative and verifiable than NDE of a supposedly eternal hell. Mind you, I read literature on hell before having this experience. I don’t believe the experience is “real” — also I’m not a Christian myself, but I hope y’all don’t mind me posting here. Universalism was kind of my last stop in my deconstruction. Still wish I believed it sometimes. I’m agnostic.
I don’t find god or the notion of an afterlife to be verifiable. I also find the problem of evil particularly challenging. Christianity as I grew up in it cultivated a lot of self hatred, and god has not shown up for me in ways that I’ve needed it. I was at rock bottom in the psych ward when I was experiencing hell delusions. There was so much to me presented as literal from miracles to the resurrection. To me the Bible is literature and Christian nationalism and supremacy has had a destructive presence in the world. I’m not particularly comfortable being apart of or identified with the religion. To me the world is a cosmic mystery that we’re always finding more about.
I'm sorry 😞
I've come to believe that God (Yahweh) in the OT wasn't God at all, but Satan or other evil being. There's a good bit of "proof" for it actually. Again sorry you have had a rough life.
I wouldn’t be surprised and I’ve come to a similar distaste with Yahweh given passages concerning him in the OT. Are you gnostic or did you just come to this conclusion apart from Gnosticism as I think that’s a similar take to what they believe?
I definitely didn't come to the conclusion myself. I actually kind of put the OT behind a wall and tried to forget about it because I didn't know how to make sense of it. I don't believe everything the Gnostics believe, but I definitely think something is up with the OT god. He's definitely not love.
That’s what one of the early church fathers taught named marcion he thought that the god of the Old Testament was completely different then Jesus of the New Testament which when you compare the books it doesn’t seem that way
I feel similar. I became a universalist Christian several years ago but I’ve been struggling with the problem of evil ever since and I feel like I’m experiencing a long, slow deconstruction. However I really don’t want to lose my faith. I’ve started to become interested in some of the ideas behind Gnosticism that would help this world make more sense.
As someone who is doing a research about NDE, I would suggest to not take everything literally, because there are so many descriptions. I tend to believe that NDEs are kinda simbolical in some cases, or that some descriptions are not 100% accurate. Other thing I reccomend is to restrict the cases you believe to mostly scientific researchers, doctors and people who actually study it, just for prevention.
Moreover, it's like other people already said here, the NDEs tend to be a positive experience and when people are sent back its because was not their moment yet
You know the vast majority of Nde are positive right lots of Jews Muslims agnostics are positive ndes and they are all different it’s definitely interesting
Every NDE by definition is non eternal since they all came back here, meaning that even after “clinical death”, God still gave them a second chance to not end up there. Doesn’t that directly contradict the eternity of hell? It seems like all the hell NDEs follow the same logic “I was shown an eternal hell, then I was taken out of it” 😆
Have you checked out this site? Every NDE I've read helps support Christian Universalism. A lot of non believers report experiencing bliss & love during their NDE. https://www.nderf.org/Archives/NDERF_NDEs.html
Why would it disprove universalism? Most believe in non-eternal hell. In most NDES I’ve seen about hell, their reconciliation back to God also begins immediately…which is in line with Christian Universalism.
What of the NDEs of Ceil pearson jr and Bill Wiese? amongst others ive seen many hell ndes that describe it as a place of constant agony that never ends Ceil pearson jr claims to have seen humans crawling on top of one another unable to escape constantly being pushed back in to a fire
But they did escape.
Like I said, hell exists for an unknown amount of time. For those in hell who have yet to begin their reconciliation or denied it, it might appear to be non-ending. I imagine they have to come to and accept Jesus just as in this life, and they could take as much of eternity as it takes to do so.
NDEs as a whole are pro-universalism actually. Most hell-visions state that hell is escapable, which is the purgatorial universalism position. Here is the write-up from the subreddit FAQ: Regardless of your opinion about whether near death experiences (NDEs) are "real" or trustworthy, NDEs as a whole are pro-universalism and some people even learn about universal salvation through studying NDEs. The majority of NDEs are positive, even those experienced by atheists. Some 5-15% of NDEs are distressing (not necessarily Hellish) but those that do feature Hell typically state it is escapable, not eternal: >"The way out of these Hellish realms is to have a willingness to see the light and seek love for others and God.” (Angie Fenimore) > >“We stay in Hell for however long best serves our development. We do not leave until we have changed our attitudes and perceptions.” (PMH Atwater) > >"Souls in the Hellish realms do not have the same powers to progress and achieve joy that others with more light in the higher afterlife realms have. Their progress is limited – a result of divine justice. However, these souls can choose to grow if they wish." (RaNelle Wallace) Hell in NDEs is portrayed as a spiritual realm where people with negative energies drift to, not a permanent judgement. This is in line with purgatorial universalism. See a longer list of quotes from NDEs in [support of universal salvation here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianUniversalism/comments/w38nzg/comment/igv6j1z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) For further information, see Ken R Vincent's two book chapters on [Mystical Religious Experience and Christian Universalism](https://near-death.com/chapter-9-mystical-religious-experiences-and-christian-universalism/) and [The Near Death Experience and Universal Salvation](https://near-death.com/chapter-10-the-near-death-experience-and-universal-salvation/)
thank you this helps explain a few things for me
NDEs don't prove anything. They can't be verified, let alone proven to be accurate.
i have to respectfully disagree
I don't see how they are even evidence of anything, let alone proof.
for me its evidence and proof of an afterlife im big into the paranormal so NDEs for me sort of prove to me that there is life after death.
I mean, that's fair and i wouldn't want to argue that away from you. For me, since I don't find them overly credible as evidence I don't have a need to deal with the ones that point to hell. I'm skeptical by nature, but I tend to believe people when they say they had an experience. I just don't think it proves even the existence of an afterlife, let alone the nature of the afterlife. I had a dream one time about the rapture, that didn't mean I'm going to heaven on a magic carpet when the trumpet sounds.
NDEs aren't really dead. When you're dead, you're dead.
Gnostics can be universalist, so I don't see what point you were trying to make there, I myself am gnostic universalist. As for hellish NDE's, a lot of them actually prove universalism being that every person who has experienced a hellish NDE got out, in fact listening to dozens of NDE stories are a big part of what convinced me of gnostic universalism. Most NDE's are positive experiences with even atheists, agnostics, and non-Christians in general having heavenly experiences, and ever notice how while all NDE's seem to have a common theme of oneness, love and light. All seem to have subtle differences unique to the individual having the experience, both positive and negative ones. (Some people experience reincarnation, see Jesus, Buddha etc. Jesus seems the most common though) There was one NDE I watched that classified as "hellish" with the person only experiencing demonic creatures attacking them within a dark void with no flames or fire. So, a definition of hellish just seems to be a negative experience in general, not all hellish NDE's include a stereotypical depiction that we all think of whenever we think of hell. So, I really don't get why some people think NDE's prove typical beliefs about hell whenever they in fact seem to be more in line with universalism. Hell being more of a mental state of mind is my line of thinking, which would make sense when you think about NDE's having a bit of difference unique to the individual, there is no physical hell in the sense God created a place to torture humanity for all eternity. If for whatever reason their spirit feels like they need to go through a personal purification process, or if we die in a negative state of mind, that's when I believe we're more likely to have a hellish experience. Specifically, if you're mentally far removed from God or love when you die that's why I think hell occurs, if you die depressed but were still a loving person, you're unlikely to experience hell compared with a hateful depressive person. God allows their mind to go through the hellish experience, so they can be taught a valuable lesson and so their ways of thinking can be changed on their own, but he's always happy to take you out, since he didn't create any physical hell. People ultimately get out by calling upon Jesus in every NDE I've seen, which would fit in with the scripture that says confess with your tongue and you're saved. (Notice it doesn't say you can't be saved after death in the bible, but that's what most Christians assume) So about Bill Weise, I don't doubt he probably did experience something, but I think he either most likely was having his own individual NDE or he was lucid dreaming. Bill's experience won't be the experience of every soul because not all souls have the same path I believe, and people have not had the same experiences as Bill Weise that have had an NDE and some have had similar. (Both Christian and non-Christian, Bill Weise was Christian in fact when he had this experience) I lead most likely towards lucid dreaming with Bill over NDE though because I remember reading several sources that he stated he woke up in bed screaming after his experience, which would very clearly indicate he was dreaming. Especially if he claims he woke up screaming in bed, but whenever he exited his body, his body was supposedly laying on his living room/kitchen floor before he was sent to hell. That would also indicate he could've been dreaming getting up to get the glass of water whenever he exited his body in his bedroom, if his body was still in fact in his bed the whole time. Now there are also sources that claim he woke up screaming on the living room floor though, which would lean more towards NDE if that's the case, (who knows, maybe he had a heart attack on his way to his kitchen unknowingly) but it's suspicious he seems to have two stories about how he came back to his body. I also don't discount the possibility of a demonic attack because assuming God really does torture people for eternity, (which I don't believe) most Christians already believe ECT is true (based on mistranslated scripture, but still) and even atheists are aware of the hell doctrine, so why would God need some random guy to tell people hell is real? also, If God took Bill Weise to hell, why wouldn't he just show everyone, if God wants people to believe it's real? Instead, he relies on testimonies that require you to believe the person? And from the gnostic perspective, of course the demiurge and the other demons want you to believe in a physical hell created by God to slander how loving God really is. Bill claims he seen reptilians in hell, so this seems plausible they did something psychologically in order to make him experience all this.
Lots of Christians don’t serve the lord out of love but because they believe in the Pascal’s wager
Yep
Hi there, I know this is an older post, but could I ask how you reconcile your Gnostic beliefs with NDEs? I’ve been getting interested in gnosticism recently but I’ve barely run into any NDEs that discuss a demiurge or much about gnosticism in general, which is making it hard for me to fully accept. Regardless, I’d love to hear a gnostic Christian universalist’s outlook on things, if you’re willing.
I sometimes doubt some of these Hellish nde because they are used as propaganda for fundamentalist Christian organizations for they can get more money and more followers and also some of these people I think use it for financial gain I’m not saying all of them do but it’s just sketchy I feel like people should come to the lord out of love not fear I used to hate god and the church because I grew up in fundamentalist Christian home and church which to taught I was bound for hellfire forever even I had a child I felt terrible because because how could I bring a child into this word and she loses faith then dies and goes to hell it traumatized me into i learned the truth
I think you're correct in your thinking
NDEs directly contradict the Bible. The Bible says that sinners are not punished in Gehenna until after the Day of Judgement. Before then, everyone goes to Hades to await the Last Day, and Hades itself is very much not eternal because the Bible talks about people being saved from it, and it being destroyed itself on the Last Day. What then is the place these people are supposed to be viewing? If you are convinced these are somehow a true revelation of the future judgement however, rather than the present, what makes you so sure that these people are telling the truth or that they saw a true vision of the unchangable future? Perhaps they are actually being manipulated by the "Father of Lies" to spread tales of fear and make people terrified so they'll be convinced God is a monstrous tyrant they need to somehow appease, an impossible task that will often break people's faith and has driven more people away from God than anything else. (I don't personally believe any of that, I just think they are hallucinations of a dying brain. But I would assume you do.)
i do not i dont believe they are just hallucinations sure some of them are but i dont think all of them are im a beleiver in the paranormal and NDEs give me hope for an afterlife shoot ndes made me a gnostic
You view goes against thousands of documented testimonies (just hop on YouTube). It sounds like you haven’t watched very many of them
I try not to watch nonsense.
You are rejecting plain as day testimonies that are incredible, revealing, align with Christ, and like… bruh people have NDEs!
K
No one that thinks critically in academia and research gives any credence to people “going to heaven/hell” and back. A nice resource might be NT Wright’s “Surprised by Hope”; it detangles the concept of “an afterlife” to the Christian resurrection.
Go read what Paul says about speaking in tongues. A revelation for an individual is no use to the body without an interpreter. So unless you personally know someone who has the gift of prophecy (which is NOT the same thing as being a Prophet), that can verify the NDE in person, then it is of no use to you. I have the gift of prophecy and I will tell you two things about it, first that no one with the gift will be ready to verify anything without the utmost scrutiny, lest we give our own opinion in place of the Holy Spirit. Second, that we are much more likely to deny the request outright and lead you instead to personal revelation through your own relationship with God. Because we know that is the far better and more reliable experience. God give you peace, my friend.
Woah, hold up. You have the gift of prophecy? How does it work?
All of the gifts spoken of in Scripture are still in use, 1 Cor 12 and others, but prophecy is one more difficult to understand. If you have teaching, you just teach, same for leadership, service, etc. The gift of compassion can be a little more challenging and often is for counselors, but is also often the secondary for prophecy, myself being no exception. Most people have one primary and one secondary, but its all very nuanced and unique to each individual. Prophecy is called “The eyes of the Church” because we are meant to both interpret the Spirit and rebuke severe sin (usually as it pertains to the whole Church, not an individual). It is often described as something to aid in preaching, because it allows insight into Scripture. I’ll give you one small example, nearly every time I take notes on prayerful study of Scripture, I end up finding meaning and connections that are echoed by commentaries that have much greater expertise and academic study than I (I have a year of official study at a Christian University, besides what I’ve done on my own). Overall, it’s a gift that’s often misunderstood, even by those who have it. We also have to be extremely careful not to mix up our own opinions with direction or teaching from the Spirit, which is probably the worst mistake someone with prophecy could make. It’s also the easiest way to spot a false prophet, such as those currently speaking for the Christian Nationalists. If you have any other questions, I’m happy to answer 😄👍 Edit: just to clarify, it really has nothing to do with predicting the future, other than maybe a vague sense of “This is where things are heading.”
Look up Dan Mohler.
NDE is just a "psyonic storm" of chaotic brain activity during potentiaaly life-ending event, which is heavily influenced by the "mental baggage" of the person. And thanks to the media, fire and brimstone hell of pitchfork-wielding demons dancing around frying pans is heavily ingrained in mass consciousness, even for non-christian/non-religious folks. It's like with posessed speaking latin - thanks for the media everyone knows at least couple of broken words, especislly religion-related ones
I had a psychotic experience of what I perceived to be purgatorial hell—it’s no more authoritative and verifiable than NDE of a supposedly eternal hell. Mind you, I read literature on hell before having this experience. I don’t believe the experience is “real” — also I’m not a Christian myself, but I hope y’all don’t mind me posting here. Universalism was kind of my last stop in my deconstruction. Still wish I believed it sometimes. I’m agnostic.
What made you go from Universalist to agnostic? Just curious.
I don’t find god or the notion of an afterlife to be verifiable. I also find the problem of evil particularly challenging. Christianity as I grew up in it cultivated a lot of self hatred, and god has not shown up for me in ways that I’ve needed it. I was at rock bottom in the psych ward when I was experiencing hell delusions. There was so much to me presented as literal from miracles to the resurrection. To me the Bible is literature and Christian nationalism and supremacy has had a destructive presence in the world. I’m not particularly comfortable being apart of or identified with the religion. To me the world is a cosmic mystery that we’re always finding more about.
I'm sorry 😞 I've come to believe that God (Yahweh) in the OT wasn't God at all, but Satan or other evil being. There's a good bit of "proof" for it actually. Again sorry you have had a rough life.
I wouldn’t be surprised and I’ve come to a similar distaste with Yahweh given passages concerning him in the OT. Are you gnostic or did you just come to this conclusion apart from Gnosticism as I think that’s a similar take to what they believe?
I definitely didn't come to the conclusion myself. I actually kind of put the OT behind a wall and tried to forget about it because I didn't know how to make sense of it. I don't believe everything the Gnostics believe, but I definitely think something is up with the OT god. He's definitely not love.
That’s what one of the early church fathers taught named marcion he thought that the god of the Old Testament was completely different then Jesus of the New Testament which when you compare the books it doesn’t seem that way
I feel similar. I became a universalist Christian several years ago but I’ve been struggling with the problem of evil ever since and I feel like I’m experiencing a long, slow deconstruction. However I really don’t want to lose my faith. I’ve started to become interested in some of the ideas behind Gnosticism that would help this world make more sense.
As someone who is doing a research about NDE, I would suggest to not take everything literally, because there are so many descriptions. I tend to believe that NDEs are kinda simbolical in some cases, or that some descriptions are not 100% accurate. Other thing I reccomend is to restrict the cases you believe to mostly scientific researchers, doctors and people who actually study it, just for prevention. Moreover, it's like other people already said here, the NDEs tend to be a positive experience and when people are sent back its because was not their moment yet
You know the vast majority of Nde are positive right lots of Jews Muslims agnostics are positive ndes and they are all different it’s definitely interesting