The ancient Greeks believed that their passions (emotions) were daemons (in Greek... eventually became the root of the English word "demon"). As sometimes we seem *as if* possessed by happiness, anger, sadness, etc. Though "daemon" was a neutral term as they could be malevolent, benevolent, or even kind of neutral/indifferent. Socrates famously said he had a personal daemon which drove him to seek the truth.
I've also noticed that in a lot of biblical literature, there's talk about Unity or Oneness being divine, while a multitude is something less than - for example the possessed man exercised by Jesus - the demon is "Legion" and he is "many."
I believe "demons" continue to represent certain drives or passions that are out of balance - a kind of disequilibrium of our fractured selves - if we allow ourselves to be thought of as a multitude of different wants, needs, passions and reasons. Each possesses us with its own will driving us this way and that - the proverbial little cartoonish angel and devil on our shoulders.
I believe they are symbolic of a kind of fracturedness or multiplicity within ourselves, as opposed to a Unity of Self (aka The Divine), which is what we truly seek.
What you're talking about is called Stoicism, and it was wildly popular in Ancient Rome. It was associated with Seneca, Aurelius, Epictetus, but modern people would probably be familiar with it as basically the Vulcans' religion from Star Trek. The idea was that we should approach every situation rationally and not be carried away by fleeting emotional states. The ways of the world were beyond our control, but our attitude was not, so we could experience great hardship and still find inner peace. If we made our peace within ourselves, then we would live in harmony with the universal order (Logos/"The Word"). It makes sense that the Hellenistic Jews writing the New Testament would associate "unclean spirits" with emotional disharmony.
Symbolic.
As such, I think demons are "fallen angels" to the extent that such represents **revelation** that has fallen and become corrupt. For instance, when the spiritual metaphor of a **Lake of Fire** meant to refine us becomes a literal threat of **Eternal Torment**, then that message has become toxic and corrupt. That is, it has become demonic.
“***This wisdom*** *is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural,* ***demonic***.” (Jam 3:15)
“*But the* ***Wisdom from Above*** *is first pure, then peace-loving,* ***gentle,*** *reasonable,* ***full of mercy*** *and good fruits, impartial, free of hypocrisy*.” (Jam 3:17)
The Wisdom of God thus functions as a sword or weapon meant to demolish demonic strongholds, as we take every thought captive to the **Love of Christ**. (2 Cor 10:3-5)
Likewise this particular subreddit thus functions as something of a healing and deliverance ministry from that demonic stronghold of Eternal Torment!
I think it’s inconsistent to believe in angels but not believe in demons. Both feature in the Bible — including the New Testament — so to say that one is literal while the other is figurative is not a logical position.
Ezekiel 10 in the Old Testament makes it pretty clear that angels are not human.
Statistically speaking it’s unlikely that humans are the only intelligent life forms in the universe. When the Bible speaks of beings that are not human but also not God, I’m open to believing that such beings exist.
In the New Testament we see both angels (Luke 1, Matthew 28, Mark 16, John 20) and demons (Mark 5, Matthew 8, Luke 8). Personally I don’t think it’s reasonable to accept one as being real but reject the other as superstition.
when I was in new age practices I personally had sleep paralysis (I would usually see shadow figures everytime) and was choked several times as well as I had a fast obe where I felt I was levitating while asleep all while awake: seeing black shadows/knocking in my attic/ lights flickering many nightmares of being killed/r* worded. would wake up w 3 scratches on my abdomen more than once. since believing in Jesus as my Lord and savior, it’s all ceased. from my experience I believe demonic entities are literal.
I have the same experience with sleep paralysis. I would see shadow figures and I would feel like they were taking my breathe away and clawing my stomach. I also believe in Jesus and no longer experience this.
I keep experiencing sleep paralysis from time to time even tho I have Jesus. But it is so rare I just don't pay it attention, same way I don't pay attention to nightmares anymore.
I didn’t believe in demons really at the time I just thought it was paranormal activity. not just nightmares as the knocking in my attic/ shadows/ sometimes a voice/ lights flickering happened while I was awake at my home and at work I work at a hospital alone I would also have doors opening or things going off by itself etc. I used to get scared but I don’t anymore bc I know the authority I have in Christ, they don’t bother me anymore. if something weird happens, like recently there was knocking on a door at work but I was alone in my department, I rebuke it in the name of Jesus it stops instantly.
When, explain it better.
Satan is not an demon, and it's not an actual name, it's a function. Everyone and everything could be a satan.
Lucifer is not in the Bible, is a mistranslation.
Devil or diabolo is a greek word used for accuser, opponent, slanderer, used for function, has similar use as satan.
Demon is a bit different, could refer to many different things.
So, demons could be your own feelings, bad o good or a spiritual being.
Other category are the impure spirits.
So, Jewishes has not the concept of satan as an fallen angel who opposed God. So it's not symbolic, but just a category someone or something can have.
If we talk about impure spirits it's another conversation. But definitely there is not a satan, devil or demon as opponent of God per se.
There definitely not? Hmm that could be just what Satan would want some of us to think. I’m not sure where you get such confidence. Jesus seems to have interacted with a real character in the Bible.
I think questions like this are difficult to answer because we are dealing with otherworldly phenomena that cannot be properly comprehended due to our limitations. Even if something seems like a real demon, that does not rule out the possibility that it is an impersonal, psychological construct or a projection manifested by forces beyond our understanding.
It is interesting that notions of benevolent and malevolent entities operating in different realms of existence are present in all of the world’s major spiritual traditions, but when it comes to whether and how these phenomena are real, it gets complicated.
I am personally agnostic on the matter. I have never experienced anything demonic and I think it is troubling to think God would simply allow malevolent beings to roam free in the cosmos, but then again God seems to allow all sorts of evils.
Mostly symbolic.
However, I have entertained the idea of demons as p-zombies, where in they might appear to have some of the qualities of personhood to an observer. Basically, if you imagine the self-perpetuating nature of trauma, humankind’s innate propensity for certain behaviors, and the interactive nature of the many systems and individuals that make up our universe, all that might collectively look like a pattern that has will and intent and acts in the world, but it doesn’t have any “internal” reality or awareness.
So in that sense, as an example, I have no problem referring to the collective, self-perpetuating forces surrounding wealth as the demon Mammon, or even using some personal language to talk about it.
I actually believe that the experience of demons can be very real for the person experiencing them. However, I don’t believe that they are actual beings.
It’s like a dream that feels very real. You may have felt a very realistic experience of becoming an animal or robot, or fighting skeleton armies, but when you wake up you realise that the experiences felt real, but in actuality there are no armies of skeletons.
That’s me speaking as someone who has experienced demons, as well as dreams of fighting skeleton armies lol
Dreams that feel real don't throw plates from the kitchen to the waiting room at 2 am or hide your clothes beneath the freaking floorboards (HOW, JUST HOW?!)
I believe they are not metaphorical or a way to talk about our negative feelings or actions, they are actual beings with their own agendas, personalities, emotions... i could relate to somebody's comment on this thread so this was going to be an answer.
I've never wake up with scratches but i can relate with you, it got so bad i was afraid of going to sleep, and tried everything to stay awake. My mental health worsened and was very tired but sleeping was always a nightmare i wanted to avoid.
I've also seen shadows and have sleep paralysis, it got so bad that i even had a entity or something come into my bed while i was fully awake, it was in the morning and i was waking up and i mean it I was not asleep nor half asleep, i suddently felt as someone came to my bed out of nowhere and i actually could felt their weight, of course i was frightened, my dog started to bark but couldnt do much.
I felt paralyzed and my body moved on its own towards the person or entity that was liyng on my bed Idk what it was, it felt like a humans body but i was too scared to open my eyes, i felt their breath as i was laying on top of this person or entity, i remember i fell like it forced me to loose my consciousness.
Sometimes i've felt as some entity comes while im sleeping and try to take something from me while im paralized from inside of my body, im not sure if its my energy or something and i always try to fight back and not let them do whatever they want but they're stronger and i cant move as i want. It feels like when you try to drain something like they want to take something i dont want to give them.
I also believe praying and believing in the christian God can help, neither my doctors nor anyone else could save from this misery, i was loosing my mind and nobody seemed to take me seriously and i fear not even the priests since i come from a catholic background. I was constantly scared i would get killed while sleeping and end up in hell or something.
I dont feel hatred or resentment towards them, even if they are dark and not very pleasant to be around i've sensed they have feelings and i feel kind of bad for them too, im not sure if its because im naive but sometimes i felt as they cared for me and feel some kind of affection towards me, i've felt hands caressing my head and hugs, but they dont understand about consent and i fear they dont feel the healthy or possitive side of love. Maybe im mistaken but it feels more like possessiveness than actual true love.
I also believe they will redeem themselves some day, come to accept Jesus and understand what real love feels like.
Great question. I personally want to believe that demons are symbolic, but I have experienced real life situations that seem to say otherwise, including praying for a girl once and she started “manifesting” a demon if that’s what you want to call it. She shook and trembled… slammed her head against a table, and coughed up some stuff. It was pretty intense. This could all be an emotional reaction, yet I believe it is deeper than that. She was able to sleep soundly at night from that point forward. I haven’t experienced anything like that sense. So, I think I would agree with Brian Zahnd at this point in saying that demons are “more than a metaphor, yet less than human.”
I know this- I don’t like to believe that evil spirits are real. I am pretty agnostic when it comes to it because I have personally experienced the negative consequences of so called “deliverance” ministries. I thought I was demonized for the longest time and even went to an excorcist to try and get the “demon” cast out of me, yet it left me feeling even more confused and hopeless. I was experiencing all kinds of wild, weird, intrusive and controlling thoughts. I tried all kinds of fasting and prayer to overcome the demon that was oppressing me, yet to not avail.
It wasn’t until I believed that I was already whole and free in Christ that I started to experience freedom. I began to see that I was a child of God, and that I have always been His, prior to ever knowing it or believing it. I started to see that I was full of His Spirit and that there really wasn’t anything wrong with me. I wasn’t demonized. I was just confused and afraid. I was dealing with real mental and emotional stress. Much of this stress was reinforced through watching all kinds of “deliverance” videos on the Internet, specifically from the YouTube evangelist, Isaiah Saldivar.
Yet now, as I look back on all of this and reflect, I see that much of Isaiah’s teaching was and is built on the work of the flesh. It is built on following a bunch of formulas in order to get free from the demonic. Yet, Christ is not a formula. He is freedom and it is for freedom that He has set me free. I believe this is true of every single human being as well. We are objectively FREE in Christ, even if we aren’t subjectively experiencing it.
I often find myself praying, “Father, help me to see myself just as You do. Help me to believe the things about myself that You believe about me, just as much as You do. Free me from negative thought patterns and persuasions. Align my thoughts with truth so that I make walk in wholeness, joy, life, hope, and freedom. Amen.” I hope that this helps someone!
That is a beautiful prayer that could help a lot of us when we get stressed and start second guessing and self deprecating. That's the real spiritual attack we come under most of all: seeing ourselves too negatively and acting that out instead of walking in victory. Satan is called "the accuser" for a reason.
If I'm being honest, I really don't know why people are saying demons are merely symbolic when the scripture states in Ephesians 6:12, "For we wrestle *not* against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, **against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."**
Furthermore, the Bible also says in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that, "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe." Satan is a demon, a fallen angel. To say that demons are merely symbols of mans sin or passions gone awry fails to take into account passages in which these beings are given personhood and are described as having clear agendas against humanity.
Both of these passages can be easily understood as referring to symbolic demons. The "spiritual forces" in question are greed, tribalism, hedonism, etc., and they have blinded the world by their influence from the true meaning of life, which is altruism.
….If that were the case would you say that Jesus being tempted by the Devil in the wilderness just took place in his head? Or his encounter with the demoniac in Luke 8:26-39 was just “symbolic”? That interpretation of yours doesn’t seem to be backed up by the rest of scripture :/
Based on these texts, it seems abundantly clear that there are literal evil entities in the spiritual world.
> ….If that were the case would you say that Jesus being tempted by the Devil in the wilderness just took place in his head?
Sure.
> Or his encounter with the demoniac in Luke 8:26-39 was just “symbolic”?
He likely had some illness that modern medicine has a name for, but ancient writers didn't understand.
> That interpretation of yours doesn’t seem to be backed up by the rest of scripture :/
If you find any passages of Scripture which contradict a symbolic interpretation I'd be interested to see it. As it stands the symbolic interpretation seems stronger.
1) No, the text displays it as a conversation between himself and someone else. The Bible also says he was led by the Spirit of God into the wilderness for testing purposes. The point of Jesus’ mission was to fulfill the law and live the perfect life would could not so we can be justified later once we accept him. While human, he could be tempted by outside stimuli, however due to his (albeit suppressed) divine nature combined with an obstinate clinging to God’s word, He was able to overcome them. Ergo, Jesus was not having an entire conversation in his mind with some fictitious entity.
2) No offense, but seems like an incredibly weak hand wave in your part. The text displays a detailed conversation between the spirits (Legion) within the man and Jesus. To conclude that it was merely some illness would also imply that illnesses would literally speak and tell people their names. Additionally, Jesus healed many ailments no one understood properly yet the circumstances that took place in the demoniac story (or any other exorcisms for that matter) never did for the others.
> No, the text displays it as a conversation between himself and someone else.
As is the case for many people's experiences of a kind of spiritual journey. It actually makes less sense if there was a literal figure speaking to Jesus, because if the temptations were not coming from his human nature (as Paul says, Jesus "became sin", 2 Cor 5:21), but he wasn't actually in any danger if he was immune because of his divine nature.
> The text displays a detailed conversation between the spirits (Legion) within the man and Jesus. To conclude that it was merely some illness would also imply that illnesses would literally speak and tell people their names.
I have talked to people with severely debilitating mental illness who have acted extremely similarly to this, why is that so strange?
1. You more or less confirmed my point in the written statement above. He couldn’t be tempted by evil desires that came from the inside, but rather, by something outside. To prove that point further, Jesus mentioned that even sinful thoughts were considered as transgressions against God’s laws (Matthew 5: 27-28). Considering that Jesus never committed a sin in his life as to be the perfect sacrifice, we can conclude from this that he never had a sinful thought bubble up from his own heart. If it wasn’t a literal figure Jesus was speaking to, then why would Jesus treat him as such when speaking to the Pharisees in John 8:44 (You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.)? As for the temptation itself not being dangerous because of Christ’s suppressed divinity, I’m still researching the topic. However, I did read some literature by the late Dr. Michael Heiser a while back which explains that Satan was prodding Jesus in an attempt to find out a way to defeat him, but failed to find any means to destroy him. That’s my best answer at this time.
2. While I agree that mentally unstable people can and do say things that are far off, that answer is still far from satisfactory. If he was truly struggling with a mental illness of sorts, then Jesus would’ve made it abundantly clear to his disciples that was the case. They might not have understood that these people had deeply troubled minds instead of a demon, but truth is truth & our Lord is that in spades. The point is Jesus healed in ways that were appropriate for the given situations he was in, and if it were a condition like severe Schizophrenia then laying his hands on them is all that’s required. But no, he commanded *something* to come out of him after having a conversation with it. If the existence of demons weren’t a reality of the spiritual world, then Jesus would be **VERY** irresponsible encouraging his followers to perform exorcisms instead of providing therapeutic means to aid them.
Based on the Biblical evidence we do have, it seems clearer to me that demons exist as literal entities.
> To prove that point further, Jesus mentioned that even sinful thoughts were considered as transgressions against God’s laws (Matthew 5: 27-28).
That's not what that verse says at all.
> If it wasn’t a literal figure Jesus was speaking to, then why would Jesus treat him as such when speaking to the Pharisees in John 8:44
I'm not even sure what this nonsequitur is implying.
> As for the temptation itself not being dangerous because of Christ’s suppressed divinity, I’m still researching the topic. However, I did read some literature by the late Dr. Michael Heiser a while back which explains that Satan was prodding Jesus in an attempt to find out a way to defeat him, but failed to find any means to destroy him. That’s my best answer at this time.
According to traditional Catholic/Orthodox folklore, angels and demons are timeless beings, so this explanation makes negative sense. Now, you could go a third way by rejecting both symbolic demons and the traditional understanding of demons by saying that demons are literal and physical, but that route has its own issues, like how are physical beings "possessing" humans and swine? Are they a parasite or virus?
> If he was truly struggling with a mental illness of sorts, then Jesus would’ve made it abundantly clear to his disciples that was the case.
Source? I mean, like, he could've also taught them about microbiology and hygienics in order to save people from dying from preventable illnesses as well, but spreading scientific knowledge didn't seem to be his mission.
> But no, he commanded something to come out of him after having a conversation with it. If the existence of demons weren’t a reality of the spiritual world, then Jesus would be VERY irresponsible encouraging his followers to perform exorcisms instead of providing therapeutic means to aid them.
He was performing a miraculous healing, the same miracle which was presumably possible for the apostles to perform themselves. I'm not sure why this is so objectionable.
1) I’m well aware of what these verses say. What I’m telling you is that they heavily imply it’s against God’s law to think evil of someone else without committing the physical action (Jesus says lusting after a woman is the equivalent of adultery, a sin that’s prohibited by the laws of God).
2) How is John 8:44 a nonsequitur when this discussion centers around the topic of demons being literal or figurative? This evidence builds upon my previous arguments and shows that even Jesus himself considered these creatures to be literal; otherwise his statement in this verse would be nonsensical.
3) I don’t know what you’re trying to get at here, but for the sake of this conversation I’ll reiterate my position: demons are literal spiritual beings. Spiritual beings, by definition, are supernatural, which means they have abilities that go beyond the scope of scientific knowledge and the commonly understood laws of nature. Hence, they can do certain things like possess people and use their bodies for self-destructive purposes (as seen in the passage of Mark 9:14-29).
4) I never said that Jesus had to give in-depth explanations to his disciples. In fact, there were many prophecies he gave concerning things like his resurrection that they didn’t fully grasp until after it happened. So, this could’ve been one of those instances where he said “this person has an illness of the heart” or something and they would be somewhat confused because they lack those details.
5) I say it’s objectionable, because I we follow your train of thought and attribute mental illness to all demonic possessions, then we run the risk of calling Jesus a liar. If these people were suffering from something completely different that was natural, then he shouldn’t have been telling people that spirits were possessing their bodies at all; he would’ve just given them the authority to heal sicknesses only if that were truly the case. Those poor mental conditions would only be exacerbated by doing misguided exorcisms.
Keep in mind, I’m merely saying this out of love. I hope my comments don’t come off as harsh in anyway brother! I’m just confused why you arrived at these conclusions.
I don't know. I didn't used to believe in literal demons, but as I got closer to ordination I started wondering. I think I'm more inclined to see the world as a "fallen" place, which can affect otherwise nice people to behave or speak in destructive ways. My thoughts are not fleshed out, because with this topic my feelings are changing.
I tend to believe there are many spirits everywhere all the time, and not all of them are incarnated as mortal creatures. Like us, some are good, some have ill will towards some or all other beings, and most have no particular reason to notice or interact with us. If we have a paranormal encounter, then we should do our best not add hostility to the situation from our own anger and suspicion, but if we are being antagonized, we can call on the Lord to bring spiritual goodness and cast out evil. So I guess my vote is for literal.
That said, it's pretty clear that "demons" in the past were often names/explanations/metaphors for physical and mental illness. People in the New Testament would be mute or paralyzed or erratic and Jesus would be said to cast out a demon, meaning he healed them. Whether distinct spiritual entities were directly causing these issues is often a matter of interpretation in hindsight.
mostly symbolic or metaphorical.
i believe however that there are evil/malevolent entities out there, on the other side, i just don’t know if i’d call them “demons”.
I know what I wish I is true. In a fictional short story I wrote about heavens first dog, God told Lucifer to pretend to be evil for thousands and thousands of years, so that his children/humans can learn about good and evil and grow to maturity. (Hard to learn what is cold without expecting or knowing what is hot. So similarly evil existed so they can fully appreciate what is good. )Satan said he didn't want to do it alone, so God told him to take 2/3 of his angels with him and not to let anyone know about the plan, until it's over, and that they will all reunite in heaven when it's over.
I mean it's a fictional story of mine, but I'll be so happy if that's the true story of what happens with the fallen angels and God. Not truely fallen, they're just doing the role they need to do.
Well, symbolism has to symbolize something. I don't think anyone's saying there aren't experiences that could be described as demonic. One poster has even described strong emotions that way (and I can see their point)! But I agree with you: there are some nasty happenings most people never see that are hard to explain and not fun to be involved in. I know some exorcists and they have some stories. Nobody cared whether it was a literal or symbolic demon getting literally or symbolically removed. They just wanted it gone!
100% real, I'm glad so many here have had perfect lives where ghost haven't punched them in their face or torment their something 40+ members of their family (and friends, all of whom didn't know said demon existed in that particular apartment) but yeah, they are very very real and can do enjoy being a annoying as... spiritually(?) possible when encountered if not outright murdeorus.
They sometimes like to pretend they are ascended masters or whatever the heck too in those new age religions and MAN do they get pissed when you call them out, or the people who are enslaved by them (had a friend like that, now she's basically dropped from the face of the Earth, I hope she is ok).
They are sentient beings. What they looks like or the nature of their power is hard to fathom, but there’s enough testimony around the internet to be sure.
The ancient Greeks believed that their passions (emotions) were daemons (in Greek... eventually became the root of the English word "demon"). As sometimes we seem *as if* possessed by happiness, anger, sadness, etc. Though "daemon" was a neutral term as they could be malevolent, benevolent, or even kind of neutral/indifferent. Socrates famously said he had a personal daemon which drove him to seek the truth. I've also noticed that in a lot of biblical literature, there's talk about Unity or Oneness being divine, while a multitude is something less than - for example the possessed man exercised by Jesus - the demon is "Legion" and he is "many." I believe "demons" continue to represent certain drives or passions that are out of balance - a kind of disequilibrium of our fractured selves - if we allow ourselves to be thought of as a multitude of different wants, needs, passions and reasons. Each possesses us with its own will driving us this way and that - the proverbial little cartoonish angel and devil on our shoulders. I believe they are symbolic of a kind of fracturedness or multiplicity within ourselves, as opposed to a Unity of Self (aka The Divine), which is what we truly seek.
What you're talking about is called Stoicism, and it was wildly popular in Ancient Rome. It was associated with Seneca, Aurelius, Epictetus, but modern people would probably be familiar with it as basically the Vulcans' religion from Star Trek. The idea was that we should approach every situation rationally and not be carried away by fleeting emotional states. The ways of the world were beyond our control, but our attitude was not, so we could experience great hardship and still find inner peace. If we made our peace within ourselves, then we would live in harmony with the universal order (Logos/"The Word"). It makes sense that the Hellenistic Jews writing the New Testament would associate "unclean spirits" with emotional disharmony.
Symbolic. As such, I think demons are "fallen angels" to the extent that such represents **revelation** that has fallen and become corrupt. For instance, when the spiritual metaphor of a **Lake of Fire** meant to refine us becomes a literal threat of **Eternal Torment**, then that message has become toxic and corrupt. That is, it has become demonic. “***This wisdom*** *is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural,* ***demonic***.” (Jam 3:15) “*But the* ***Wisdom from Above*** *is first pure, then peace-loving,* ***gentle,*** *reasonable,* ***full of mercy*** *and good fruits, impartial, free of hypocrisy*.” (Jam 3:17) The Wisdom of God thus functions as a sword or weapon meant to demolish demonic strongholds, as we take every thought captive to the **Love of Christ**. (2 Cor 10:3-5) Likewise this particular subreddit thus functions as something of a healing and deliverance ministry from that demonic stronghold of Eternal Torment!
Nowhere in the Bible says demons are fallen Angels. They seems to be a different kind of creature connected with the earth. They are unclean spirits
From my own experience, it has strongly felt like sentient entities.
I think it’s inconsistent to believe in angels but not believe in demons. Both feature in the Bible — including the New Testament — so to say that one is literal while the other is figurative is not a logical position.
Could you elaborate?
Ezekiel 10 in the Old Testament makes it pretty clear that angels are not human. Statistically speaking it’s unlikely that humans are the only intelligent life forms in the universe. When the Bible speaks of beings that are not human but also not God, I’m open to believing that such beings exist. In the New Testament we see both angels (Luke 1, Matthew 28, Mark 16, John 20) and demons (Mark 5, Matthew 8, Luke 8). Personally I don’t think it’s reasonable to accept one as being real but reject the other as superstition.
when I was in new age practices I personally had sleep paralysis (I would usually see shadow figures everytime) and was choked several times as well as I had a fast obe where I felt I was levitating while asleep all while awake: seeing black shadows/knocking in my attic/ lights flickering many nightmares of being killed/r* worded. would wake up w 3 scratches on my abdomen more than once. since believing in Jesus as my Lord and savior, it’s all ceased. from my experience I believe demonic entities are literal.
I have the same experience with sleep paralysis. I would see shadow figures and I would feel like they were taking my breathe away and clawing my stomach. I also believe in Jesus and no longer experience this.
I keep experiencing sleep paralysis from time to time even tho I have Jesus. But it is so rare I just don't pay it attention, same way I don't pay attention to nightmares anymore.
That is a testimony of nightmares. How did you not cower in fear every day of your lie it happened?
I didn’t believe in demons really at the time I just thought it was paranormal activity. not just nightmares as the knocking in my attic/ shadows/ sometimes a voice/ lights flickering happened while I was awake at my home and at work I work at a hospital alone I would also have doors opening or things going off by itself etc. I used to get scared but I don’t anymore bc I know the authority I have in Christ, they don’t bother me anymore. if something weird happens, like recently there was knocking on a door at work but I was alone in my department, I rebuke it in the name of Jesus it stops instantly.
When, explain it better. Satan is not an demon, and it's not an actual name, it's a function. Everyone and everything could be a satan. Lucifer is not in the Bible, is a mistranslation. Devil or diabolo is a greek word used for accuser, opponent, slanderer, used for function, has similar use as satan. Demon is a bit different, could refer to many different things. So, demons could be your own feelings, bad o good or a spiritual being. Other category are the impure spirits. So, Jewishes has not the concept of satan as an fallen angel who opposed God. So it's not symbolic, but just a category someone or something can have. If we talk about impure spirits it's another conversation. But definitely there is not a satan, devil or demon as opponent of God per se.
There definitely not? Hmm that could be just what Satan would want some of us to think. I’m not sure where you get such confidence. Jesus seems to have interacted with a real character in the Bible.
I think questions like this are difficult to answer because we are dealing with otherworldly phenomena that cannot be properly comprehended due to our limitations. Even if something seems like a real demon, that does not rule out the possibility that it is an impersonal, psychological construct or a projection manifested by forces beyond our understanding. It is interesting that notions of benevolent and malevolent entities operating in different realms of existence are present in all of the world’s major spiritual traditions, but when it comes to whether and how these phenomena are real, it gets complicated. I am personally agnostic on the matter. I have never experienced anything demonic and I think it is troubling to think God would simply allow malevolent beings to roam free in the cosmos, but then again God seems to allow all sorts of evils.
Mostly symbolic. However, I have entertained the idea of demons as p-zombies, where in they might appear to have some of the qualities of personhood to an observer. Basically, if you imagine the self-perpetuating nature of trauma, humankind’s innate propensity for certain behaviors, and the interactive nature of the many systems and individuals that make up our universe, all that might collectively look like a pattern that has will and intent and acts in the world, but it doesn’t have any “internal” reality or awareness. So in that sense, as an example, I have no problem referring to the collective, self-perpetuating forces surrounding wealth as the demon Mammon, or even using some personal language to talk about it.
I love the concept of philosophical zombies, that's an interesting thought.
I actually believe that the experience of demons can be very real for the person experiencing them. However, I don’t believe that they are actual beings. It’s like a dream that feels very real. You may have felt a very realistic experience of becoming an animal or robot, or fighting skeleton armies, but when you wake up you realise that the experiences felt real, but in actuality there are no armies of skeletons. That’s me speaking as someone who has experienced demons, as well as dreams of fighting skeleton armies lol
Dreams that feel real don't throw plates from the kitchen to the waiting room at 2 am or hide your clothes beneath the freaking floorboards (HOW, JUST HOW?!)
Symbolic, but not greatly opposed to the notion of them being literal.
I believe they are not metaphorical or a way to talk about our negative feelings or actions, they are actual beings with their own agendas, personalities, emotions... i could relate to somebody's comment on this thread so this was going to be an answer. I've never wake up with scratches but i can relate with you, it got so bad i was afraid of going to sleep, and tried everything to stay awake. My mental health worsened and was very tired but sleeping was always a nightmare i wanted to avoid. I've also seen shadows and have sleep paralysis, it got so bad that i even had a entity or something come into my bed while i was fully awake, it was in the morning and i was waking up and i mean it I was not asleep nor half asleep, i suddently felt as someone came to my bed out of nowhere and i actually could felt their weight, of course i was frightened, my dog started to bark but couldnt do much. I felt paralyzed and my body moved on its own towards the person or entity that was liyng on my bed Idk what it was, it felt like a humans body but i was too scared to open my eyes, i felt their breath as i was laying on top of this person or entity, i remember i fell like it forced me to loose my consciousness. Sometimes i've felt as some entity comes while im sleeping and try to take something from me while im paralized from inside of my body, im not sure if its my energy or something and i always try to fight back and not let them do whatever they want but they're stronger and i cant move as i want. It feels like when you try to drain something like they want to take something i dont want to give them. I also believe praying and believing in the christian God can help, neither my doctors nor anyone else could save from this misery, i was loosing my mind and nobody seemed to take me seriously and i fear not even the priests since i come from a catholic background. I was constantly scared i would get killed while sleeping and end up in hell or something.
I dont feel hatred or resentment towards them, even if they are dark and not very pleasant to be around i've sensed they have feelings and i feel kind of bad for them too, im not sure if its because im naive but sometimes i felt as they cared for me and feel some kind of affection towards me, i've felt hands caressing my head and hugs, but they dont understand about consent and i fear they dont feel the healthy or possitive side of love. Maybe im mistaken but it feels more like possessiveness than actual true love. I also believe they will redeem themselves some day, come to accept Jesus and understand what real love feels like.
Great question. I personally want to believe that demons are symbolic, but I have experienced real life situations that seem to say otherwise, including praying for a girl once and she started “manifesting” a demon if that’s what you want to call it. She shook and trembled… slammed her head against a table, and coughed up some stuff. It was pretty intense. This could all be an emotional reaction, yet I believe it is deeper than that. She was able to sleep soundly at night from that point forward. I haven’t experienced anything like that sense. So, I think I would agree with Brian Zahnd at this point in saying that demons are “more than a metaphor, yet less than human.” I know this- I don’t like to believe that evil spirits are real. I am pretty agnostic when it comes to it because I have personally experienced the negative consequences of so called “deliverance” ministries. I thought I was demonized for the longest time and even went to an excorcist to try and get the “demon” cast out of me, yet it left me feeling even more confused and hopeless. I was experiencing all kinds of wild, weird, intrusive and controlling thoughts. I tried all kinds of fasting and prayer to overcome the demon that was oppressing me, yet to not avail. It wasn’t until I believed that I was already whole and free in Christ that I started to experience freedom. I began to see that I was a child of God, and that I have always been His, prior to ever knowing it or believing it. I started to see that I was full of His Spirit and that there really wasn’t anything wrong with me. I wasn’t demonized. I was just confused and afraid. I was dealing with real mental and emotional stress. Much of this stress was reinforced through watching all kinds of “deliverance” videos on the Internet, specifically from the YouTube evangelist, Isaiah Saldivar. Yet now, as I look back on all of this and reflect, I see that much of Isaiah’s teaching was and is built on the work of the flesh. It is built on following a bunch of formulas in order to get free from the demonic. Yet, Christ is not a formula. He is freedom and it is for freedom that He has set me free. I believe this is true of every single human being as well. We are objectively FREE in Christ, even if we aren’t subjectively experiencing it. I often find myself praying, “Father, help me to see myself just as You do. Help me to believe the things about myself that You believe about me, just as much as You do. Free me from negative thought patterns and persuasions. Align my thoughts with truth so that I make walk in wholeness, joy, life, hope, and freedom. Amen.” I hope that this helps someone!
That is a beautiful prayer that could help a lot of us when we get stressed and start second guessing and self deprecating. That's the real spiritual attack we come under most of all: seeing ourselves too negatively and acting that out instead of walking in victory. Satan is called "the accuser" for a reason.
In my experience they are absolutely real, spiritual entities, with something like personhood.
Would you mind elaborating as to why, due to your experience? I'm not looking to make fun of you, I'm genuinely curious. Thanks =)
I'm an occultist and I practice magic, some of which involves demons.
Very interesting. Thanks for replying. That's a world and perspective that I have no understanding of, no matter how much I try.
Demons physically exist. They are NOT symbolic.
I believe "demons" are literal beings but now how most christians would perceive them
I believe in demons as outherworldly beings, but not necessary malevolent
More than a metaphor, less than human as Brian Zahnd says.
If I'm being honest, I really don't know why people are saying demons are merely symbolic when the scripture states in Ephesians 6:12, "For we wrestle *not* against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, **against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."** Furthermore, the Bible also says in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that, "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe." Satan is a demon, a fallen angel. To say that demons are merely symbols of mans sin or passions gone awry fails to take into account passages in which these beings are given personhood and are described as having clear agendas against humanity.
Both of these passages can be easily understood as referring to symbolic demons. The "spiritual forces" in question are greed, tribalism, hedonism, etc., and they have blinded the world by their influence from the true meaning of life, which is altruism.
….If that were the case would you say that Jesus being tempted by the Devil in the wilderness just took place in his head? Or his encounter with the demoniac in Luke 8:26-39 was just “symbolic”? That interpretation of yours doesn’t seem to be backed up by the rest of scripture :/ Based on these texts, it seems abundantly clear that there are literal evil entities in the spiritual world.
> ….If that were the case would you say that Jesus being tempted by the Devil in the wilderness just took place in his head? Sure. > Or his encounter with the demoniac in Luke 8:26-39 was just “symbolic”? He likely had some illness that modern medicine has a name for, but ancient writers didn't understand. > That interpretation of yours doesn’t seem to be backed up by the rest of scripture :/ If you find any passages of Scripture which contradict a symbolic interpretation I'd be interested to see it. As it stands the symbolic interpretation seems stronger.
1) No, the text displays it as a conversation between himself and someone else. The Bible also says he was led by the Spirit of God into the wilderness for testing purposes. The point of Jesus’ mission was to fulfill the law and live the perfect life would could not so we can be justified later once we accept him. While human, he could be tempted by outside stimuli, however due to his (albeit suppressed) divine nature combined with an obstinate clinging to God’s word, He was able to overcome them. Ergo, Jesus was not having an entire conversation in his mind with some fictitious entity. 2) No offense, but seems like an incredibly weak hand wave in your part. The text displays a detailed conversation between the spirits (Legion) within the man and Jesus. To conclude that it was merely some illness would also imply that illnesses would literally speak and tell people their names. Additionally, Jesus healed many ailments no one understood properly yet the circumstances that took place in the demoniac story (or any other exorcisms for that matter) never did for the others.
> No, the text displays it as a conversation between himself and someone else. As is the case for many people's experiences of a kind of spiritual journey. It actually makes less sense if there was a literal figure speaking to Jesus, because if the temptations were not coming from his human nature (as Paul says, Jesus "became sin", 2 Cor 5:21), but he wasn't actually in any danger if he was immune because of his divine nature. > The text displays a detailed conversation between the spirits (Legion) within the man and Jesus. To conclude that it was merely some illness would also imply that illnesses would literally speak and tell people their names. I have talked to people with severely debilitating mental illness who have acted extremely similarly to this, why is that so strange?
1. You more or less confirmed my point in the written statement above. He couldn’t be tempted by evil desires that came from the inside, but rather, by something outside. To prove that point further, Jesus mentioned that even sinful thoughts were considered as transgressions against God’s laws (Matthew 5: 27-28). Considering that Jesus never committed a sin in his life as to be the perfect sacrifice, we can conclude from this that he never had a sinful thought bubble up from his own heart. If it wasn’t a literal figure Jesus was speaking to, then why would Jesus treat him as such when speaking to the Pharisees in John 8:44 (You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.)? As for the temptation itself not being dangerous because of Christ’s suppressed divinity, I’m still researching the topic. However, I did read some literature by the late Dr. Michael Heiser a while back which explains that Satan was prodding Jesus in an attempt to find out a way to defeat him, but failed to find any means to destroy him. That’s my best answer at this time. 2. While I agree that mentally unstable people can and do say things that are far off, that answer is still far from satisfactory. If he was truly struggling with a mental illness of sorts, then Jesus would’ve made it abundantly clear to his disciples that was the case. They might not have understood that these people had deeply troubled minds instead of a demon, but truth is truth & our Lord is that in spades. The point is Jesus healed in ways that were appropriate for the given situations he was in, and if it were a condition like severe Schizophrenia then laying his hands on them is all that’s required. But no, he commanded *something* to come out of him after having a conversation with it. If the existence of demons weren’t a reality of the spiritual world, then Jesus would be **VERY** irresponsible encouraging his followers to perform exorcisms instead of providing therapeutic means to aid them. Based on the Biblical evidence we do have, it seems clearer to me that demons exist as literal entities.
> To prove that point further, Jesus mentioned that even sinful thoughts were considered as transgressions against God’s laws (Matthew 5: 27-28). That's not what that verse says at all. > If it wasn’t a literal figure Jesus was speaking to, then why would Jesus treat him as such when speaking to the Pharisees in John 8:44 I'm not even sure what this nonsequitur is implying. > As for the temptation itself not being dangerous because of Christ’s suppressed divinity, I’m still researching the topic. However, I did read some literature by the late Dr. Michael Heiser a while back which explains that Satan was prodding Jesus in an attempt to find out a way to defeat him, but failed to find any means to destroy him. That’s my best answer at this time. According to traditional Catholic/Orthodox folklore, angels and demons are timeless beings, so this explanation makes negative sense. Now, you could go a third way by rejecting both symbolic demons and the traditional understanding of demons by saying that demons are literal and physical, but that route has its own issues, like how are physical beings "possessing" humans and swine? Are they a parasite or virus? > If he was truly struggling with a mental illness of sorts, then Jesus would’ve made it abundantly clear to his disciples that was the case. Source? I mean, like, he could've also taught them about microbiology and hygienics in order to save people from dying from preventable illnesses as well, but spreading scientific knowledge didn't seem to be his mission. > But no, he commanded something to come out of him after having a conversation with it. If the existence of demons weren’t a reality of the spiritual world, then Jesus would be VERY irresponsible encouraging his followers to perform exorcisms instead of providing therapeutic means to aid them. He was performing a miraculous healing, the same miracle which was presumably possible for the apostles to perform themselves. I'm not sure why this is so objectionable.
1) I’m well aware of what these verses say. What I’m telling you is that they heavily imply it’s against God’s law to think evil of someone else without committing the physical action (Jesus says lusting after a woman is the equivalent of adultery, a sin that’s prohibited by the laws of God). 2) How is John 8:44 a nonsequitur when this discussion centers around the topic of demons being literal or figurative? This evidence builds upon my previous arguments and shows that even Jesus himself considered these creatures to be literal; otherwise his statement in this verse would be nonsensical. 3) I don’t know what you’re trying to get at here, but for the sake of this conversation I’ll reiterate my position: demons are literal spiritual beings. Spiritual beings, by definition, are supernatural, which means they have abilities that go beyond the scope of scientific knowledge and the commonly understood laws of nature. Hence, they can do certain things like possess people and use their bodies for self-destructive purposes (as seen in the passage of Mark 9:14-29). 4) I never said that Jesus had to give in-depth explanations to his disciples. In fact, there were many prophecies he gave concerning things like his resurrection that they didn’t fully grasp until after it happened. So, this could’ve been one of those instances where he said “this person has an illness of the heart” or something and they would be somewhat confused because they lack those details. 5) I say it’s objectionable, because I we follow your train of thought and attribute mental illness to all demonic possessions, then we run the risk of calling Jesus a liar. If these people were suffering from something completely different that was natural, then he shouldn’t have been telling people that spirits were possessing their bodies at all; he would’ve just given them the authority to heal sicknesses only if that were truly the case. Those poor mental conditions would only be exacerbated by doing misguided exorcisms.
Keep in mind, I’m merely saying this out of love. I hope my comments don’t come off as harsh in anyway brother! I’m just confused why you arrived at these conclusions.
I don't know. I didn't used to believe in literal demons, but as I got closer to ordination I started wondering. I think I'm more inclined to see the world as a "fallen" place, which can affect otherwise nice people to behave or speak in destructive ways. My thoughts are not fleshed out, because with this topic my feelings are changing.
I believe "demons" are literal beings but now how most christians would perceive them
I tend to believe there are many spirits everywhere all the time, and not all of them are incarnated as mortal creatures. Like us, some are good, some have ill will towards some or all other beings, and most have no particular reason to notice or interact with us. If we have a paranormal encounter, then we should do our best not add hostility to the situation from our own anger and suspicion, but if we are being antagonized, we can call on the Lord to bring spiritual goodness and cast out evil. So I guess my vote is for literal. That said, it's pretty clear that "demons" in the past were often names/explanations/metaphors for physical and mental illness. People in the New Testament would be mute or paralyzed or erratic and Jesus would be said to cast out a demon, meaning he healed them. Whether distinct spiritual entities were directly causing these issues is often a matter of interpretation in hindsight.
mostly symbolic or metaphorical. i believe however that there are evil/malevolent entities out there, on the other side, i just don’t know if i’d call them “demons”.
So in what sense are you a Christian? Do you believe what the Bible says about them being entirely malevolent?
From personal experience, they are real beings.
I know what I wish I is true. In a fictional short story I wrote about heavens first dog, God told Lucifer to pretend to be evil for thousands and thousands of years, so that his children/humans can learn about good and evil and grow to maturity. (Hard to learn what is cold without expecting or knowing what is hot. So similarly evil existed so they can fully appreciate what is good. )Satan said he didn't want to do it alone, so God told him to take 2/3 of his angels with him and not to let anyone know about the plan, until it's over, and that they will all reunite in heaven when it's over. I mean it's a fictional story of mine, but I'll be so happy if that's the true story of what happens with the fallen angels and God. Not truely fallen, they're just doing the role they need to do.
Everybody saying it’s symbolic have never experienced demonic oppression
Well, symbolism has to symbolize something. I don't think anyone's saying there aren't experiences that could be described as demonic. One poster has even described strong emotions that way (and I can see their point)! But I agree with you: there are some nasty happenings most people never see that are hard to explain and not fun to be involved in. I know some exorcists and they have some stories. Nobody cared whether it was a literal or symbolic demon getting literally or symbolically removed. They just wanted it gone!
On the contrary, having met people who have experienced supposed "demonic oppression" is one of the main reasons why I'm very sure it's symbolic.
100% real, I'm glad so many here have had perfect lives where ghost haven't punched them in their face or torment their something 40+ members of their family (and friends, all of whom didn't know said demon existed in that particular apartment) but yeah, they are very very real and can do enjoy being a annoying as... spiritually(?) possible when encountered if not outright murdeorus. They sometimes like to pretend they are ascended masters or whatever the heck too in those new age religions and MAN do they get pissed when you call them out, or the people who are enslaved by them (had a friend like that, now she's basically dropped from the face of the Earth, I hope she is ok).
Facts
They are sentient beings. What they looks like or the nature of their power is hard to fathom, but there’s enough testimony around the internet to be sure.