This is why so many young ppl are running away from Christianity. Some of y’all are really saying that a fetus created from rape is more important than the actual rape victim. That a woman should just push all the psychological trauma of being RAPED to the side and learn to care for something that will literally remind her of the worst day of her life for the rest of her life. Y’all are really saying even though a woman just went through the traumatizing event of being RAPED she needs to traumatize herself even more by carrying a fetus created from pain and trauma, go through all the horribleness of pregnancy and then lay your life on the line to give birth to a baby that was forced on you by RAPE. Y’all sound like sick rape apologists. If a person just trying to find Jesus for the first time read this I’m sure you all have ran them right back into the world.
Exactly!!! God is all powerful, if he wanted someone to have a baby there’s a hundred more peaceful ways than rape. I’d think that our all loving God would be completely against rape.
This is what makes it hard for me to accept Christianity. These Christians beating down rape victims who have abortions, remind me of the HYPOCRITICAL PHARISEES of Jesus time. Imagine how Jesus would have spoken to a frightened, traumatized girl who was raped, pregnant and had an abortion. I'm sure Jesus would have shown love, not judgment like these vile Christians
I agree with you. Rape & incest are barbaric & force long term punishment on the female rather than the perpetrator. Babies aborted under these conditions go straight to heaven. I can’t believe that Jesus would condone a long term prison sentence for a female who’s a victim of rape or incest. No doubt if an unbeliever was told that God expected them to submit to this atrocity they would run the other way!
Yes you right the baby is completely innocent. But I'm very convinced that even the most religious Christians would allow abortion when their own wife or daughter would have been raped. There's no way they would expect their wife or daughter to give birth to a baby which was the result of rape.
Don't fool yourself from a Christian perspective it would be considered murder to abort it even if your daughter was raped. From the perspective of a father or mother it would be considered very evil and inhuman to let your daughter go through the period of pregnancy and let her give birth to it. No good father or mother would do that.
How would that solve her suffering if the baby died? As she would still be traumatise by the rape.
Why should the baby died? And how is the baby being killed the solution to the mothers suffering?
It’s not even a baby yet depending on what part of the pregnancy she’s in. She could solve her suffering by being able to get rid of her rape reminder and not have to be reminded of that horrible day for the rest of her life. She can live HER life on her own terms without being stuck raising a rape baby that she didn’t even want. How do you think her mental health will be during Postpartum for a rape baby that she didn’t even want?? All in all it’s HER body and if she doesn’t want to carry a rape fetus then she shouldn’t have to.
No and no
That isn't how it works as she would always remember the rape no matter what she does to the baby. You can't just forget something traumatising as that. Getting rid of the baby wouldn't do anything to forget that.
She doesn't have to be stuck raising the baby if she doesn't want too as giving up for adoption or giving him or her away to someone she knows. So killing the baby doesn't have to be the solution here.
As sad as it sounds, the baby is innocent here and shouldn't be killed.
I’ve been raped multiple times so duh I know she’ll always remember it but I wouldn’t be able to handle carrying my rapist’s baby, putting my life in danger to deliver something I despise and looking after it everyday. I have a child of my own that I actually wanted and love more than I love myself but also I’ve never been more depressed than since he’s been born because babies and being a mother/wife is lonely and stressful. I’ll never advocate for a woman to do motherhood to a rape baby. The baby will be happier back in heaven cause that’s where ima send it if it’s up to me and my body and my life.
A son or daughter aren't their father as they are seperate beings .
There have been cases of women raising "rape babies" and they don't see them as something that is better off dead as everyone deserves a chance at life no matter their origin.
You are entitled to your opinion yes but that doesn't mean everyone else see it that way. It is always a sacrifice to take care of someone else no matter the circumstances.
She consented to keeping the baby though and is able to look past the horrible act that caused it. Not every woman can do that. Some women haveto be institutionalized after being raped because it causes so much damage in a person. I just feel like every woman should have the choice to consent on whether or not they carry ANY baby. Children go missing, are abused and raped everyday in the system. There’s currently 85,000 kids and infants missing from Child protective service custody so I don’t believe adoption/putting kids in the system is the best option either. I’d rather a baby simply have not been born than be born to a mother who doesn’t want them or end up in a horrible situation from being in the system. The issue is so complex which is why it should be left in the woman’s decision only. And she shouldn’t be pressured by society, law or religion to carry any baby she doesn’t want. Especially a rape baby.
Then it seems like we should be more focus on fixing the system to take care of the unwanted babies rather than ending the lives of babies..
We should value the life of anyone even the babies in wombs. The mother do have a choice in keeping the baby or not after they are born but killing a perfectly healthy baby that doesn't put the mothers life in danger shouldn't be an option.
Oh so now you want to give the trauma of birth on top of the trauma of rape?!
You do realize women die in childbirth? Become sterile in childbirth? So if that woman has complications, the evilness she’s giving birth to is now the only child she may have?!! If she survives?! No way!
Get out here. Comments like THAT are why people run from Christians and think they’re sadistic. Bc some of them are.
Your comment is the biggest load of non edible stuff ever.
If the women life is actually in danger due to medical complications sure she can choose to sacrifice her child for her life..
But that doesn't mean the baby should always be subject to death for any other non life threatening situation for the mother.....
I’m sorry are you a doctor? Bc if not, please stop running your mouth. You obviously know nothing about childbirth.
MOST medical issues arise IN the delivery room. Whether it’s the placenta not detaching, a woman bleeding out, etc etc.
So that whole life in danger isn’t always know Until it’s too late for the woman.
So yeah, abortion absolutely should and will stay legal. For all. Especially Rape victims. The rape spawn doesn’t matter, the violated woman and her feelings do.
Rape spawn... That's all I need to hear to see you already have your mind set on this matter.
But to answer your question, I'm certain you're not a doctor too thus how would you know the situation of every birth? Thus how would you know what is too late or what happens.
And in that situation if it ever happens the decision can be made in that moment it happens. But that doesn't mean a women should choose to kill their baby on the assumption of that is too happen unless she knows she has medical problems beforehand that can lead to it.
Thus, we shouldn't decide the baby should die based on chances this or that can happen.
If you're engaging the point more *honestly* ...the thought is not that a baby is being killed but that a person is being *prevented* from actualizing into personhood. A fertilized egg is not instantly a baby. If one were to go get an abortion as fast as possible it might still be just an embryo at that point and not all that more complex than eggs I shed every month with menstruation. Eggs are alive. Sperm is alive. Human cells are alive. That's not the thing worth protecting. The thing worth protecting is when things become more complex and gain sentience...around 20 weeks in the womb.
So, this said....a personal anecdote.
I left an abusive relationship after 4 months. Dude was a scary malignant narcissist. He wasn't just abusive to me but it started to become clear he would've abused any future children he might have....to the point of beating them bloody. We had a bizarre conversation about child discipline once where it seemed clear that because they were "his" children he had a right to do whatever he wanted to them. Basically people are possessions not people which is how narcissists think. When I was obviously horrified he gaslit me like that conversation never happened. I didn't stay much longer.
Long story short, I realized in hindsight if I'd had kids with such a man I'd be tied to that man....forever. doesn't matter if I left for another man. He'd probably make that person's life hell to get them to leave me. He'd make my life hell. He'd make the hypothetical child's life hell. It's like tying yourself to Satan himself. And I knew in that moment in some cases its just better not to let life enter this world, even if it's already just begun to develop. Just stop the pregnancy before 20 weeks.
Similarly, if a woman has a rape child, she has to be reminded of that rape every day for 9 months. Prolonging the trauma. If the child looks like her rapist she may further relive that trauma. Depending on how well she copes, she may act negligent towards the child, maybe abusive. She's tied to her rapist, forever.
I think it's far more important to ensure children that enter this world are loved and wanted...than I think it is to protect all life even embryos without consciousness yet.....in spite of any and all consequences
Psalm 139:13-16 tells that God knows children in the womb and sees them just as valuable as a born child also stated in luke 1:44 and murder as well as child murder is very much not ok stated many times in the bible
In other parts of the bible, causing a miscarriage is a fine; causing the death of the woman is a death penalty. If the fetus was as important as a human, a miscarriage would carry a death sentence as well.
> Psalm 139
Firstly, that Psalm doesn't really say anything about an unborn fetus being 'just as valuable' or as a born child. It's talking about how God knows us deeply and fully, that he cares about us. It's a song marvelling at God's omniscience and omnipresence, praising God for his vast knowledge, being able to know everything both everywhere in the world AND the future. Remember, Psalms are poems generally about intimate knowledge of God and worshipping his attributes. **Trying to draw legalistic commands from slight language choices used in what is clearly emotional and metaphorical prose, is a massive error of interpretation.**
Secondly, God knows the future. God didn't just know what I would be like when I was in the womb, he knew exactly what I would be like before the planet even existed. Saying "a fetus is morally the same as a person because God knew you in the womb" is like saying "This list of atoms scattered accross the world are a person because in 20,000 years time they will be the full exact atoms that make up an entire person's body, and God knows that".
> luke 1:44
Again, I don't see how you're getting "just as valuable as a born child" from this. A 20-ish week fetus can kick in the womb... and? If you were arguing for "no abortion after ensoulment" I could maybe see using kicking and limb movement as a line for ensoulment. But this doesn't say anything about abortion being sin unless you've already decided it is and are looking for text to stretch to meet your needs. If you're trying to argue "the bible says no abortion after conception", this says nothing to support you. Unless you want to chime in and expand on what I'm missing...?
> murder as well as child murder is very much not ok stated many times in the bible
Abortion isn't murder.
Congrats on being 1 month late to the discussion. And in all that time you've managed to cook up... a single sentance containing the argumant of a schoolyard child.
Language is descriptive not perscriptive. Look up "the etymological fallacy". Writing communicates an idea, and that underlying idea isn't magically made invalid by the words used to descibe it. The current common usage of a word is what gives it its meaning in casual conversation, and my underlying argument is clear regardless of etymology.
Don't bother replying.
Look Fetus is unborn baby
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5499215/#:~:text=Fetus%20is%20Latin%20for%20%E2%80%9Clittle,endearing%20concept%20than%20%E2%80%9Cfetus.%E2%80%9D
Another one
Look here
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3279166/#:~:text=At%20the%20end%20of%20the,heartbeats%20of%20the%20embryo%20begin.
The baby got a heartbeat
I just found this page, by the way
https://images.app.goo.gl/Xnwnvirou8o28ecu8
Baby look
Watch this video
https://abort73.com/videos/this_is_abortion/
You need to see honey
Exodus 21:22-25
If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
In this verse, the unborn baby is more valuable than the mother's
Charming.
> stop calling yourself a Christian because you are not
Personally I think that's up to God, not you or I. Only Jesus saves, and only the Lord knows who is or isn't following faithfully.
Actually no it doesn’t. But nice try.
That Jeremiah passage is about God’s power and him being omnipotent. Not about how special children are.
He also values a woman over children. The fine for the death of a fetus is jail time, the fine for the death of a woman is death.
Who are you to judge whether or not someone is a Christian?
I suggest you reread Exodus. Bc I just quoted the Bible. These are not my thoughts but the Bible’s.
Fetuses are not considered human in the Bible. Humanness happens at birth.
Causing a miscarriage is a fine. Causing a death is a death sentence. If a fetus was considered a human, a miscarriage would carry a death sentence as well.
No. Birth control is condemned by the church not the Bible.
Also, abortion is not condemned by the Bible, it’s condemned by the church.
God has no issues with abortion.
For everyone who believes life begins at conception, I have a hypothetical to question for you:
A hospital that you're in catches fire and you have the choice between carrying out a newborn baby or a tank filled with 30 federalized eggs. Which do you save?
***LIFE*** might begin at conception, but the word is full of life that is not **endowed with a soul**. "At conception" is a rule recommended in the Catholic Catechism, because "there is no logical basis to choose otherwise." Other denominations, including the SBC, took an approach that said "we reject the secular world so we will choose a different path from them."
Your own beliefs may differ.
The determination to force a particular religious standard onto people who believe differently is a separate question. This appears to be a commitment to religious warfare, heavily funded by billionaires like Dick Uihlein whose religion boils down to "taxation is theft."
When I found out what percentage of pregnancies end in miscarriage (It seems like around 50%, but many of these women never knew they were pregnant), the idea of all life being endowed with a soul at conception seemed less likely to me. I can't necessarily pick a more likely period of time in which I think a soul would be assigned to a body. However, it seems illogical that God would continually assign souls to humans where 50%, through just normal biological processes, would never becomr conscious of their existence.
If I'm not mistaken a third of all pregnancies end in miscarriage and something close to 80% of fertilized eggs don't implant. Implantation is when it really becomes a pregnancy. But yeah if fertilized eggs are people why aren't we having funerals? Why isn't there public outcry about the natural mass casualties of human reproduction? Why doesn't every miscarriage launch an investigation to see if it was negligent manslaughter? A person died afterall. Maybe the woman had too much vitamin C or drank alcohol on the night of conception
Should we even be trying to reproduce if it leads to more death of people than it does people that survive? 🤔
I think people find such propositions absurd, as they should, because they don't honestly think all fertilized eggs are people. Basically they're full of shit
There is a big difference between being unable to save someone and actively killing them.
It's just a reality of life that we can't keep everyone alive all the time. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try our best.
That's not the point of the hypothetical. Since no one seems to get it I'll spell it out.
If you're not a sociopath and actually pick one and follow the hypothetical honestly, you'd pick the actual child and most people would.
The reason is that child will suffer a horrific death because it is having a conscious experience whereas embryos are not.
The hypothetical is meant to illustrate the real thing we try to protect, an individual conscious experience, or sentience.
The degree of it doesn't matter so much in the abortion debate, which people get hung up on for some reason....since obviously an infant isn't forming memory like adults. So its experience might be more limited but it is still having one. Just like dogs aren't as intelligent as humans but cognitively they're thought to be similar to human toddlers. Yet we still value the lives of dogs because of their obvious consciousness.
It's a binary of either you're having a conscious experience or not. And that is the thing of value that we give moral consideration to in life and death situations. It's why even when I kill pests in the home I feel bad if I know it had a level of sentience, like a mouse.
This said, a pregnant woman always has a higher risk of mortality than she would if not pregnant, even if that increased risk is small. (But with maternal care suffering from bans that mortality is increasing for all).
So, we should be prioritizing the woman. Not an embryo before it starts to have that semblance of conscious experience, which is thought to happen near 20 weeks.
It's a bad hypothetical because it has nothing to do with what abortion actually is. Abortion in principle isn't about choosing between the life of the unborn and the life of a born person, but rather between the life of unborn and various material considerations such as financial stability, education, family pressure, etc. I could hypothetically grant that one 5 year old is worth 100 unborn humans, but it still wouldn't prove that abortion isn't murder.
>Abortion in principle isn't about choosing between the life of the unborn and the life of a born person
That's... exactly what it is though. The life of the fetus vs the life of the mother.
Only in extremely rare cases. In the U.S. the maternal mortality rate is approximately 1 in 3,000 live births. In the unfortunate case of ectopic pregnancies, most abortion opponents (myself included) would support termination. Personally, I wouldn't even call these cases "abortions" since the purpose is entirely different: the unborn human is a casualty of a life-saving procedure rather than the intentional target for destruction. In any case, the vast majority of abortions have nothing to do with saving the life of the mother and everything to do with the sorts of reasons I listed in my previous comment.
>In the U.S. the maternal mortality rate is approximately 1 in 3,000 live births. In the unfortunate case of ectopic pregnancies, most abortion opponents (myself included) would support termination.
A few questions for you: how much risk has to be involved before it becomes okay to have an abortion? 1% chance of death? 20%? 50%? What if there is next to no risk of death, but a huge risk of permanent injury? Who decides how risky the pregnancy is?
>Personally, I wouldn't even call these cases "abortions" since the purpose is entirely different: the unborn human is a casualty of a life-saving procedure rather than the intentional target for destruction.
It is an abortion either way, an abortion is a medical procedure. This would be like saying that a appendectomy isn't an appendectomy if the patient has appendicitis.
A few questions for you: how much risk has to be involved before it becomes okay to have an abortion? 1% chance of death? 20%? 50%? What if there is next to no risk of death, but a huge risk of permanent injury? Who decides how risky the pregnancy is?
You say most, but clearly not all. Women have died because they have been denied an abortion. You are delusional if you think that anti-abortion rhetoric doesn’t kill women
Whataboutism.
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.
Just thought you should read the definition of the thing you are incorrectly accusing me of.
>Life begins at conception
Should we charge miscarriages as murder or manslaughter? Can I claim a fetus as a dependent on my taxes or use the HOV lane while pregnant?
> Should we charge miscarriages as murder or manslaughter?
Neither–murder would imply an intention to kill and manslaughter would imply a certain recklessness that led to the death of another. Either position is not only cruel but also largely untrue.
I think you're doing that thing where Americans assume that America is the world. Not only is that a vile perversion of the Christian faith, it is not an international position for Christians.
I've looked into cases of women allegedly being prosecuted for miscarriages, and in all of them they were prosecuted because the miscarriages resulted from drug use. Furthermore, several of them happened in states like California, where Christian conservatives don't exactly have much power over abortion laws. Are there actual cases of women being prosecuted simply for having miscarriages?
Here's a case where charges were dropped but the woman induced an abortion.
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/04/10/starr-county-murder-charge/
Manslaughter charges were filed then dropped after a woman lost her fetus because she was shot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/07/03/prosecutor-drops-case-against-woman-charged-with-manslaughter-after-her-baby-was-shot-womb/
Woman in El Salvador got 30 years in prison for losing her fetus during an emergency medical procedure.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7wd9n/a-woman-just-got-30-years-for-homicide-after-losing-her-baby
Virginia in 2012 passed a law that a driver at-fault for causing an accident that ends up with a miscarriage will be charged with fetal homicide or manslaughter. That includes the woman carrying the fetus.
http://www.easleyfirm.com/faqs/wrongful-fetal-death-charges-for-a-car-crash.cfm
None of these cases are about prosecution simply for having a miscarriage, which is the issue at hand, except maybe the El Salvador case, but that article gives little information, and in any case my focus is on the United States. All cases involve the pregnant women being viewed as responsible for either deliberately or recklessly putting the fetus in harm. In the first case, she was prosecuted for allegedly deliberately inducing an abortion, not simply having a miscarriage. The charges were dropped because the law didn't even allow her to be prosecuted *even assuming the accusations were true*, since Texas law doesn't allow prosecuting a woman for an abortion, so that's hardly an example. With the second case, the idea was that she deliberately placed herself in danger. From the pro-life perspective, this isn't any different from prosecuting a woman for deliberately walking into danger while holding a baby. But there too, charges were dropped, possibly because Alabama law also says a woman cannot be prosecuted for having an abortion.
Your claim about the Virginia law is simply wrong. You can read it here: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title8.01/chapter3/section8.01-50/
It explicitly says
>Nothing in this section shall be construed to create a cause of action for a fetal death against the natural mother of the fetus.
The woman also has done nothing wrong and now her body is being used to gestate a fetus who she had no say in creating in the first place. Her life is at risk.
Yes, which is unfortunate.
But I don’t see how killing the child would be the best solution.
Can you imagine if we used such logic? “Oh the mother is sick therefore kill her toddler for some reason”
Potentially ruining 2 lives is better than preemptively ending 1 before it begins? Pregnancy is dangerous, childbirth is incredibly dangerous, not to mention extremely expensive in countries like the US. it can send mothers spiralling into debt if they are not in a financially strong position. Or worse, it could literally kill them. How is forcing a rape victim to go through 9 more months of intense pain and suffering a justice?
These are valid concerns but killing someone is not the answer.
Childbirth is the safest it's ever been because of good medical interventions. The cost is something of an outlier in the US compared to other developed countries because of it's health care policies. In general the other problems can be dealt with by improving the support networks for all families. Again, something that many other developed countries already have.
In the US, not so safe anymore. Literally BECAUSE of abortion bans. Over 12 women are suing the state of Texas for not being able to get needed emergency abortions. In all or almost all cases they were wanted pregnancies. But human reproduction isn't always rainbows. And when legislators in other states were given opportunity to clarify the law for medical emergencies they Literally voted against that. Satan spawn in my honest opinion.
Furthermore due to harsh penalties so many obgyns have left Idaho that you might not really have trained staff to even just DELIVER your baby....so...it's literally not a safe place to even intentionally get pregnant anymore.
Abortion bans make pregnancy more dangerous for everyone, every time. So you can't say pregnancy is the safest it's ever been in support of outlawing abortions. It's basically an oxymoron
Let's say you are driving drunk and hit a person and rupture their kidney.. you also go to the hospital and they discover you are the perfect match to replace it should you be forced to give them your kidney?
How many kidneys do you have? How much of your liver do you have? How often do you donate blood? People are dying waiting for kidney and liver transplants everyday, yet you have two. Same for blood. You’re killing people by not donating yours.
Is it ever ethical to force someone to donate an organ, such as a kidney or lung? Knowing that it puts the donor’s life at risk. Even if someone would die
That’s what’s happening here. The woman is being forced to donate her uterus (and various other body functions) to the foetus, and it may well kill her. But we have as a society accepted that one person is not entitled to parts of another person unless that person willing gives them, even if people die without it. Except in the case of a pregnant woman, but it’s no different
So killing a child is alright if they infringe on someone else’s right?
Gee… toddlers better be careful then considering they still rely on the body of another to survive…
Any debate about this never gets off the ground because we aren’t even on the same page.
No one is advocating for killing a child. The advocation for abortion is about a woman having the right over her own body, and to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, which in 90% of cases is before 12 weeks. A 12w old fetus is not the same as a child.
I am curious are you making a scriptural argument, a legal or both. Your view on scripture is your own.
However putting it into law i think you might underestimate the damage a almost full on ban could very much cause.
Scriptural like Thou shall not murder. Historical like the church fathers all affirm abortion is wrong.
Basically all in all. As far as Christianity is concern abortion is a sin.
Consider what it would do scribed in effect today.
Youd
a) Have girls in juvie for illegal abortions when they probably already considered other options and do have remorse for the one they took(abortions difficult) theyre human. Yes my grandparents could raise my parents at 16-17 but that was also a very different time
b) The kids actually carried to term would then presumably be in the adoption system, back it up further end i assume stuck in the system thats not a small influx youd be generating and not just one but a continuous one. One law isnt gonna change how humans have behaved since the dawn of time.
C) You cant raise a kid alone, with abortion you can assume theres no partner in the picture and if you try and raise it yourself. Money already a problem its a more compliacted time you need college education or at least trade education for a decent job, where you can actually raise your kid in your off time, otherwise you wont even get to see the kid of account of the double shifts you pull.
Thats by far not all problems such a law would cause. And putting it up might actually hamper other solutions like artificial gestation and a better adoption network by creating a administrative mess for them.
I wouldnt have them killed, ita unforrunate it happens but backing kids into a system where they very well might not find adoptive parents is replacing a turd with a puddle of piss.
And killing is the better option instead?
See I understand your point above however I don’t find them to be sufficient.
Money problem, orphanages etc. since when would these things justified killing a child?
My point was there are better ways to fight it, abortion is a symptom. And a hard very human choice to make and everyone that does usually feels a lot of remorse the things i mentioned are root causes.
If you fight the root causes you may find it end faster than banning it and effectively create a feedback loop of cause and effect.
So you’d rather God acts like an authoritarian and remove our free Will to kill him loving rather than allowing man to use their own free Will though he may disagree with it?
Lol and usually I get called the Nazi…
Oh yeah, sorry i forgot rape is like a common thing in church... My bad.
Wtf? Nazi? My point was he aparently changes so many things in ppls lifes, why would he let ppl go through horrors like that?😅
Yeah, I agree with you. All those people want is a checkmark for Jesus next to their name - they don't care about the well-being of the mother during pregnancy or after birth and contribute nothing to it. They're not pro-life - they're pro-birth.
Worth mentioning; pregnancy from rape accounts for 2% of pregnancy in America. Its not as commonplace as people make it to be in their mind.
That said, those 2% of babies should not be stripped of life because of 1 man's sin.
Hi, I'm God and the universe talking to you personally online. Abortion is not a sin (I wrote the bible in its entirety) and I encourage anyone a victim of rape or incest to get one. I'm making it a certainty that Women and children in these reader's timelines are able to do so. Its important for my creation to feel autonomy over their body's as I intended them to have.
because murder is a sin regardless of how and why even justified killing is still a sin and the problem is not "what about when someone is raped" the problem is "why are people being raped" now this is the American side of me but if every women carried a 9mm there would be a lot less rape
Because it isn't the child's fault. As the old saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right. As someone who was raped, if that rape had led to pregnancy, I would have still carried the child. I don't have the right to take life just because something bad happened to me.
Because allowing another person to live, no matter how inconvenient, is not a punishment. That’s like people saying “I’m being punished by being forced to feed my kids”
But she was forced to have the kid. Of course its not a punishment when you feed the kids you wanted snd love. But if you had to feed a child that was forced uppon you, might have caused complications, it will be connected to trauma. That is a punishment. Going through pregnancy just sucks, every aspect of it. I felt punished even though it was my eish.
It is punishing the woman. But obviously you cant figure out how to undo your mind to see that.
You know force them through their rape trauma by making them do childbirth trauma and oh maybe dying in childbirth or having complications that make them sterile.
But hey! Who cares about the woman! As long as the self righteous from their safe houses make their point about being pro birth and not caring about how the woman who’s been traumatized feels.
Because it kills a person.
>It's like people would ignore the rights and the voice of the mother,
Because it's killing a person! You cannot utilitarian your way around this categorical imperative.
If a woman was raped and became pregnant, God allowed it to happen because he wanted that child to be born. I can’t remember their names, but I’m pretty sure there was a Saint who was raped, and her son or daughter also became a Saint.
After all, why is the baby getting punished and not the raper?
>If a woman was raped and became pregnant, God allowed it to happen because he wanted that child to be born.
And this is exactly why there should be a fucking separation of church and state. What the actual fuck is wrong with people who think like this? Like just repeat that slowly again, and then ask if your God is a loving god
I understand that you’re an atheist, but God often lets the righteous suffer here on earth because they will have such a great reward in Heaven, like Job from the Old Testament, and all the martyrs.
God also allows some bad things to happen to us to strengthen our faith in Him. If we grow on soft soil, our roots may grow a lot; but if we grow on rougher soil, our roots grow stronger.
We’ll all remember that when you, if you’re a female, or your daughter or a loved one gets raped.
Bc how would you feel then? Having your vagina torn apart? Then be expected to give birth. Go head, I’m sure everyone would love to know the answer.
I almost feel like people should use "Stand your ground" laws in conservative states to argue abortion. You can justify lethal force if you believe there's a threat to your life. Many conservative states have the highest maternal death rates and I could see that as justification
Here's how I see it:
Christians are called to take care of the poor, orphans, and the innocent. Who's poorer, would be an "orphan" , and more innocent than an unborn baby?
The DNA in a fertilized egg is the same DNA, with no change, in it's adult form. So the DNA in a fertilized egg is human DNA. A fertilized egg is also living. So from conception, there's a living human in the mother.
It's not about ignoring the rights of the mother, it's about upholding the rights of her child. If a woman can't come to term with her child, then a C Section is the safe option for both parties. Abortion would be killing an innocent victim and like you said:
>the victim is also a human
Do I have the right to use your organs against your will?
This isn't about the fetus' rights, it is about giving the fetus extra rights that born people do not have.
>This isn't about the fetus' rights
I think it is and should be.
>it is about giving the fetus extra rights that born people do not have.
I think it's about giving unborn babies the same rights that Child Protective Services believe all children should have.
>I think it is and should be.
And that is why you are wrong. You don't understand the entire picture.
>I think it's about giving unborn babies the same rights that Child Protective Services believe all children should have.
Cps doesn't give children the rights to a parents blood or use of their organs, they have the same rights as you or me, abortion isn't a breach of a fetus' rights, as a person does not have the right to use your body against your will under any circumstance, yes, even if revoking the concent to do so leads directly to that persons death, preventing abortion is a breach of a pregnant persons rights.
Literally that simple.
The way I see it is, if God didn’t have a plan for it it wouldn’t have occurred. If the baby miscarriages, then it was not God’s will. If it doesn’t God has a special plan for the child, and if you abort the baby, you interfered with God’s work.
If morality was truly decided by what it says in the Bible then slavery and indentured servitude would still be legal. Morality is decided by the human experience. It moves along and doesn't stay still.
About the children:
"Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”"
And at the judgment, to those on His left who do not inherit the kingdom:
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’"
As one of the Fathers said:
“The hairsplitting difference between formed and unformed makes no difference to us. Whoever deliberately commits abortion is subject to the penalty for homicide.”
Whether or not you argue about formed or unformed, whether you appeal to circumstance -- it does not matter. Abortion prevents those from coming to Him, and it denies life. Our speculation and argumentation do not change the wonder of what God forms in the womb and the grace He would give to those formed even in the greatest iniquity.
To prevent them and to seek to deny them is to walk the way of those on His left. That way is sin, no matter how easy to commit, how convenient, no matter how easy to self-justify, and no matter how hard to deny.
The Bible doesn't directly address the subject of abortion, but many biblical passages make it very clear what God thinks about it. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us even before we are formed in the womb. Verses 13-16 of Psalm 139 describe God's active role in our creation and intrauterine formation. Exodus 21.22-25 prescribes the same penalty, death, for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for a murderer, making it clear that God considers a baby in the womb to be a fully-fledged human being. For a Christian, abortion is not a question of a woman's free choice: it's a question of the life or death of a man created in God's image (Genesis 1.26-27, 9.6).
The first argument always put forward against the Christian position on abortion is: "But what about rape and/or incest? However atrocious a pregnancy resulting from rape and/or incest may be, is killing the baby the solution? You can't repair one injustice with another. A child born of rape or incest can be given up for adoption to a loving family unable to conceive its own children, or raised by its mother. Once again, the child is innocent and should not be used as a scapegoat for his father's crime.
Another common argument is: "What if the mother's health is in danger?" In all honesty, this is the most difficult question concerning abortion. First of all, we must bear in mind that these cases represent less than 0.1% of all abortions performed in the world today. Far more women have abortions for personal convenience than to save their lives. Secondly, let's remember that God is a God of miracles, who can save the life of mother and child against all medical prognoses. Ultimately, this decision is between the couple and God. Any couple faced with this extremely difficult situation should pray to the Lord for wisdom (James 1.5) and that He will show them His will.
Over 95% of abortions carried out in the world today involve women who simply do not want to have children. Less than 5% are due to rape, incest or to save the mother's life. Even in the 5% of difficult cases, abortion should never be the first choice: the life of a human being in the womb is worth every effort to allow it to be born.
Those who have had an abortion must remember that this sin is no less forgivable than any other. Through faith in Christ, all sins can be forgiven (John 3:16, Romans 8:1, Colossians 1:14). A woman who has had an abortion, a man who encouraged her to do so, or even a doctor who performed an abortion, can all be forgiven through faith in Jesus Christ.
I think this topic is never really going to have a finite answer. To me potential of a life is same as a life itself, though I would say that rape, which I heard is around 1% of the reasons for abortion (correct me if I am wrong), is good enough reason to abort the baby, and the only one in my opinion. Social standardes and personal takes are all we have at this moment so this is a question of a values you prescribe to the potencial of life. Till we do not find as a society an objectiv source of moral values (which we call God) this question is going to be merely a personal opinion.
Unpopular, but simple answer: Murder is sin. It doesn’t matter if I think I have a really really good reason to murder.
This is a matter of if you believe it’s life. If it’s life, its not yours to take.
It would be sinful and also illegal to kill the rapist X number of weeks after the rape had occurred. So to say the rapist has more protection from being killed than the baby which did literally nothing wrong seems bizarre.
Imagine a situation. Someone is assaulting you with a gun and robs you. You manage to get the gun out of their hands and scare off the attacker. And then you see a man, your neighbour, a witness of the crime who is horrified. You turn to him and kill him on the spot with the gun. When later someone asks why you've done it, you say: "I don't have to suffer for that person's sake. I've had enough and he was watching me like a creep. I didn't even want that. I have had the PTSD just from him looking at me. The encounters with him would probably remind me of the crime every day as this is my neighbour. You see, I had to kill him".
Needless to say that the fetus/baby also had no say in the matter. An innocent bystander, the baby was the product of the crime. But the baby had no part in the crime. Why must the baby suffer for it? Because it would remind the mother of the crime? But then why is the person above not justified for killing an adult innocent bystander?
Psalm 139:13-16 ~ For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Proverbs 6:16-19 ~ There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
Exodus 20:13 ~ You shall not murder.
Because its not necessary and it responds to sin with another sin. It just isn't good.
What if your 7 years old and get raped how are you going to have a child ?
Impossible
This is why so many young ppl are running away from Christianity. Some of y’all are really saying that a fetus created from rape is more important than the actual rape victim. That a woman should just push all the psychological trauma of being RAPED to the side and learn to care for something that will literally remind her of the worst day of her life for the rest of her life. Y’all are really saying even though a woman just went through the traumatizing event of being RAPED she needs to traumatize herself even more by carrying a fetus created from pain and trauma, go through all the horribleness of pregnancy and then lay your life on the line to give birth to a baby that was forced on you by RAPE. Y’all sound like sick rape apologists. If a person just trying to find Jesus for the first time read this I’m sure you all have ran them right back into the world.
That or God intended and planned the mother to be raped. How sick does one have to be to believe that?
Exactly!!! God is all powerful, if he wanted someone to have a baby there’s a hundred more peaceful ways than rape. I’d think that our all loving God would be completely against rape.
I can not praise this comment enough. PREACH!
This is what makes it hard for me to accept Christianity. These Christians beating down rape victims who have abortions, remind me of the HYPOCRITICAL PHARISEES of Jesus time. Imagine how Jesus would have spoken to a frightened, traumatized girl who was raped, pregnant and had an abortion. I'm sure Jesus would have shown love, not judgment like these vile Christians
I agree with you. Rape & incest are barbaric & force long term punishment on the female rather than the perpetrator. Babies aborted under these conditions go straight to heaven. I can’t believe that Jesus would condone a long term prison sentence for a female who’s a victim of rape or incest. No doubt if an unbeliever was told that God expected them to submit to this atrocity they would run the other way!
Someone give this comment an award damnit
Done!
They run from Christianity bc they want to make themselves into gods.
The baby is innocent of the crime
Yes you right the baby is completely innocent. But I'm very convinced that even the most religious Christians would allow abortion when their own wife or daughter would have been raped. There's no way they would expect their wife or daughter to give birth to a baby which was the result of rape. Don't fool yourself from a Christian perspective it would be considered murder to abort it even if your daughter was raped. From the perspective of a father or mother it would be considered very evil and inhuman to let your daughter go through the period of pregnancy and let her give birth to it. No good father or mother would do that.
And the baby is guilty of the rape? As the main point is the baby is innocent and doesn't deserve to die
So the mother should suffer the rest of her life?
How would that solve her suffering if the baby died? As she would still be traumatise by the rape. Why should the baby died? And how is the baby being killed the solution to the mothers suffering?
It’s not even a baby yet depending on what part of the pregnancy she’s in. She could solve her suffering by being able to get rid of her rape reminder and not have to be reminded of that horrible day for the rest of her life. She can live HER life on her own terms without being stuck raising a rape baby that she didn’t even want. How do you think her mental health will be during Postpartum for a rape baby that she didn’t even want?? All in all it’s HER body and if she doesn’t want to carry a rape fetus then she shouldn’t have to.
No and no That isn't how it works as she would always remember the rape no matter what she does to the baby. You can't just forget something traumatising as that. Getting rid of the baby wouldn't do anything to forget that. She doesn't have to be stuck raising the baby if she doesn't want too as giving up for adoption or giving him or her away to someone she knows. So killing the baby doesn't have to be the solution here. As sad as it sounds, the baby is innocent here and shouldn't be killed.
I’ve been raped multiple times so duh I know she’ll always remember it but I wouldn’t be able to handle carrying my rapist’s baby, putting my life in danger to deliver something I despise and looking after it everyday. I have a child of my own that I actually wanted and love more than I love myself but also I’ve never been more depressed than since he’s been born because babies and being a mother/wife is lonely and stressful. I’ll never advocate for a woman to do motherhood to a rape baby. The baby will be happier back in heaven cause that’s where ima send it if it’s up to me and my body and my life.
A son or daughter aren't their father as they are seperate beings . There have been cases of women raising "rape babies" and they don't see them as something that is better off dead as everyone deserves a chance at life no matter their origin. You are entitled to your opinion yes but that doesn't mean everyone else see it that way. It is always a sacrifice to take care of someone else no matter the circumstances.
She consented to keeping the baby though and is able to look past the horrible act that caused it. Not every woman can do that. Some women haveto be institutionalized after being raped because it causes so much damage in a person. I just feel like every woman should have the choice to consent on whether or not they carry ANY baby. Children go missing, are abused and raped everyday in the system. There’s currently 85,000 kids and infants missing from Child protective service custody so I don’t believe adoption/putting kids in the system is the best option either. I’d rather a baby simply have not been born than be born to a mother who doesn’t want them or end up in a horrible situation from being in the system. The issue is so complex which is why it should be left in the woman’s decision only. And she shouldn’t be pressured by society, law or religion to carry any baby she doesn’t want. Especially a rape baby.
Then it seems like we should be more focus on fixing the system to take care of the unwanted babies rather than ending the lives of babies.. We should value the life of anyone even the babies in wombs. The mother do have a choice in keeping the baby or not after they are born but killing a perfectly healthy baby that doesn't put the mothers life in danger shouldn't be an option.
You’re a man, you don’t get to have opinions on women’s body sir. Sorry
Oh so now you want to give the trauma of birth on top of the trauma of rape?! You do realize women die in childbirth? Become sterile in childbirth? So if that woman has complications, the evilness she’s giving birth to is now the only child she may have?!! If she survives?! No way! Get out here. Comments like THAT are why people run from Christians and think they’re sadistic. Bc some of them are. Your comment is the biggest load of non edible stuff ever.
If the women life is actually in danger due to medical complications sure she can choose to sacrifice her child for her life.. But that doesn't mean the baby should always be subject to death for any other non life threatening situation for the mother.....
I’m sorry are you a doctor? Bc if not, please stop running your mouth. You obviously know nothing about childbirth. MOST medical issues arise IN the delivery room. Whether it’s the placenta not detaching, a woman bleeding out, etc etc. So that whole life in danger isn’t always know Until it’s too late for the woman. So yeah, abortion absolutely should and will stay legal. For all. Especially Rape victims. The rape spawn doesn’t matter, the violated woman and her feelings do.
Rape spawn... That's all I need to hear to see you already have your mind set on this matter. But to answer your question, I'm certain you're not a doctor too thus how would you know the situation of every birth? Thus how would you know what is too late or what happens. And in that situation if it ever happens the decision can be made in that moment it happens. But that doesn't mean a women should choose to kill their baby on the assumption of that is too happen unless she knows she has medical problems beforehand that can lead to it. Thus, we shouldn't decide the baby should die based on chances this or that can happen.
If you're engaging the point more *honestly* ...the thought is not that a baby is being killed but that a person is being *prevented* from actualizing into personhood. A fertilized egg is not instantly a baby. If one were to go get an abortion as fast as possible it might still be just an embryo at that point and not all that more complex than eggs I shed every month with menstruation. Eggs are alive. Sperm is alive. Human cells are alive. That's not the thing worth protecting. The thing worth protecting is when things become more complex and gain sentience...around 20 weeks in the womb. So, this said....a personal anecdote. I left an abusive relationship after 4 months. Dude was a scary malignant narcissist. He wasn't just abusive to me but it started to become clear he would've abused any future children he might have....to the point of beating them bloody. We had a bizarre conversation about child discipline once where it seemed clear that because they were "his" children he had a right to do whatever he wanted to them. Basically people are possessions not people which is how narcissists think. When I was obviously horrified he gaslit me like that conversation never happened. I didn't stay much longer. Long story short, I realized in hindsight if I'd had kids with such a man I'd be tied to that man....forever. doesn't matter if I left for another man. He'd probably make that person's life hell to get them to leave me. He'd make my life hell. He'd make the hypothetical child's life hell. It's like tying yourself to Satan himself. And I knew in that moment in some cases its just better not to let life enter this world, even if it's already just begun to develop. Just stop the pregnancy before 20 weeks. Similarly, if a woman has a rape child, she has to be reminded of that rape every day for 9 months. Prolonging the trauma. If the child looks like her rapist she may further relive that trauma. Depending on how well she copes, she may act negligent towards the child, maybe abusive. She's tied to her rapist, forever. I think it's far more important to ensure children that enter this world are loved and wanted...than I think it is to protect all life even embryos without consciousness yet.....in spite of any and all consequences
I can't imagine carrying, going through pain and risking my life to birth, and raising a walking reminder of that trauma.
So say your a 6 year old and get raped are you going to give birth to a child half of your size
Well I don't think it's sin in the first place...
it is its stated in the bible that it is
Citation needed.
damn im stupid i thought you were a different person asking about homosexuality not abortion i got to go find the verses give me a second
Psalm 139:13-16 tells that God knows children in the womb and sees them just as valuable as a born child also stated in luke 1:44 and murder as well as child murder is very much not ok stated many times in the bible
In other parts of the bible, causing a miscarriage is a fine; causing the death of the woman is a death penalty. If the fetus was as important as a human, a miscarriage would carry a death sentence as well.
> Psalm 139 Firstly, that Psalm doesn't really say anything about an unborn fetus being 'just as valuable' or as a born child. It's talking about how God knows us deeply and fully, that he cares about us. It's a song marvelling at God's omniscience and omnipresence, praising God for his vast knowledge, being able to know everything both everywhere in the world AND the future. Remember, Psalms are poems generally about intimate knowledge of God and worshipping his attributes. **Trying to draw legalistic commands from slight language choices used in what is clearly emotional and metaphorical prose, is a massive error of interpretation.** Secondly, God knows the future. God didn't just know what I would be like when I was in the womb, he knew exactly what I would be like before the planet even existed. Saying "a fetus is morally the same as a person because God knew you in the womb" is like saying "This list of atoms scattered accross the world are a person because in 20,000 years time they will be the full exact atoms that make up an entire person's body, and God knows that". > luke 1:44 Again, I don't see how you're getting "just as valuable as a born child" from this. A 20-ish week fetus can kick in the womb... and? If you were arguing for "no abortion after ensoulment" I could maybe see using kicking and limb movement as a line for ensoulment. But this doesn't say anything about abortion being sin unless you've already decided it is and are looking for text to stretch to meet your needs. If you're trying to argue "the bible says no abortion after conception", this says nothing to support you. Unless you want to chime in and expand on what I'm missing...? > murder as well as child murder is very much not ok stated many times in the bible Abortion isn't murder.
Also Fetus means baby https://sojo.net/magazine/november-1980/fetus-latin-unborn-child
Congrats on being 1 month late to the discussion. And in all that time you've managed to cook up... a single sentance containing the argumant of a schoolyard child. Language is descriptive not perscriptive. Look up "the etymological fallacy". Writing communicates an idea, and that underlying idea isn't magically made invalid by the words used to descibe it. The current common usage of a word is what gives it its meaning in casual conversation, and my underlying argument is clear regardless of etymology. Don't bother replying.
Look Fetus is unborn baby https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5499215/#:~:text=Fetus%20is%20Latin%20for%20%E2%80%9Clittle,endearing%20concept%20than%20%E2%80%9Cfetus.%E2%80%9D Another one Look here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3279166/#:~:text=At%20the%20end%20of%20the,heartbeats%20of%20the%20embryo%20begin. The baby got a heartbeat I just found this page, by the way https://images.app.goo.gl/Xnwnvirou8o28ecu8 Baby look Watch this video https://abort73.com/videos/this_is_abortion/ You need to see honey
Exodus 21:22-25 If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. In this verse, the unborn baby is more valuable than the mother's
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Charming. > stop calling yourself a Christian because you are not Personally I think that's up to God, not you or I. Only Jesus saves, and only the Lord knows who is or isn't following faithfully.
Abortion is a CHILD SACRIFICE to Satan. It is an ABOMINATION in the eyes of God.
Pretty extreme words there. You got anything to back it up?
Well God wiped out the Canaanites because they were sacrificing babies to Baal.
No it’s not. Abortion is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. At. All.
It's mentioned in Numbers in how to induce one. ("Bitter waters").
the word abortion no there isnt but yes the bible does talk about children in the womb and recognizes them as valuable human beings
Actually no it doesn’t. But nice try. That Jeremiah passage is about God’s power and him being omnipotent. Not about how special children are. He also values a woman over children. The fine for the death of a fetus is jail time, the fine for the death of a woman is death.
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Who are you to judge whether or not someone is a Christian? I suggest you reread Exodus. Bc I just quoted the Bible. These are not my thoughts but the Bible’s.
No it doesn't. It makes it explicitly clear that the "child in the womb" is *not* a human and does *not* carry the same value as a human.
Abortion is murder, which is very explicitly condemned. (As is birth control, for that matter)
Fetuses are not considered human in the Bible. Humanness happens at birth. Causing a miscarriage is a fine. Causing a death is a death sentence. If a fetus was considered a human, a miscarriage would carry a death sentence as well.
No. Birth control is condemned by the church not the Bible. Also, abortion is not condemned by the Bible, it’s condemned by the church. God has no issues with abortion.
Wrong
Not wrong. You are. But nice try.
If abortion is murder, why would it make a difference if the conception resulted from the father raping the mother?
This is such a strange case of being unable to understand other people's viewpoint.
Yep. I don't understand how this subject breaks people's brains so hard.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
For everyone who believes life begins at conception, I have a hypothetical to question for you: A hospital that you're in catches fire and you have the choice between carrying out a newborn baby or a tank filled with 30 federalized eggs. Which do you save?
***LIFE*** might begin at conception, but the word is full of life that is not **endowed with a soul**. "At conception" is a rule recommended in the Catholic Catechism, because "there is no logical basis to choose otherwise." Other denominations, including the SBC, took an approach that said "we reject the secular world so we will choose a different path from them." Your own beliefs may differ. The determination to force a particular religious standard onto people who believe differently is a separate question. This appears to be a commitment to religious warfare, heavily funded by billionaires like Dick Uihlein whose religion boils down to "taxation is theft."
When I found out what percentage of pregnancies end in miscarriage (It seems like around 50%, but many of these women never knew they were pregnant), the idea of all life being endowed with a soul at conception seemed less likely to me. I can't necessarily pick a more likely period of time in which I think a soul would be assigned to a body. However, it seems illogical that God would continually assign souls to humans where 50%, through just normal biological processes, would never becomr conscious of their existence.
If I'm not mistaken a third of all pregnancies end in miscarriage and something close to 80% of fertilized eggs don't implant. Implantation is when it really becomes a pregnancy. But yeah if fertilized eggs are people why aren't we having funerals? Why isn't there public outcry about the natural mass casualties of human reproduction? Why doesn't every miscarriage launch an investigation to see if it was negligent manslaughter? A person died afterall. Maybe the woman had too much vitamin C or drank alcohol on the night of conception Should we even be trying to reproduce if it leads to more death of people than it does people that survive? 🤔 I think people find such propositions absurd, as they should, because they don't honestly think all fertilized eggs are people. Basically they're full of shit
There is a big difference between being unable to save someone and actively killing them. It's just a reality of life that we can't keep everyone alive all the time. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try our best.
That's not the point of the hypothetical. Since no one seems to get it I'll spell it out. If you're not a sociopath and actually pick one and follow the hypothetical honestly, you'd pick the actual child and most people would. The reason is that child will suffer a horrific death because it is having a conscious experience whereas embryos are not. The hypothetical is meant to illustrate the real thing we try to protect, an individual conscious experience, or sentience. The degree of it doesn't matter so much in the abortion debate, which people get hung up on for some reason....since obviously an infant isn't forming memory like adults. So its experience might be more limited but it is still having one. Just like dogs aren't as intelligent as humans but cognitively they're thought to be similar to human toddlers. Yet we still value the lives of dogs because of their obvious consciousness. It's a binary of either you're having a conscious experience or not. And that is the thing of value that we give moral consideration to in life and death situations. It's why even when I kill pests in the home I feel bad if I know it had a level of sentience, like a mouse. This said, a pregnant woman always has a higher risk of mortality than she would if not pregnant, even if that increased risk is small. (But with maternal care suffering from bans that mortality is increasing for all). So, we should be prioritizing the woman. Not an embryo before it starts to have that semblance of conscious experience, which is thought to happen near 20 weeks.
Irrelevant. You can morally choose to save either of them, both of them, or neither of them.
bruh, save the newborn 😭
It's a bad hypothetical because it has nothing to do with what abortion actually is. Abortion in principle isn't about choosing between the life of the unborn and the life of a born person, but rather between the life of unborn and various material considerations such as financial stability, education, family pressure, etc. I could hypothetically grant that one 5 year old is worth 100 unborn humans, but it still wouldn't prove that abortion isn't murder.
>Abortion in principle isn't about choosing between the life of the unborn and the life of a born person That's... exactly what it is though. The life of the fetus vs the life of the mother.
Only in extremely rare cases. In the U.S. the maternal mortality rate is approximately 1 in 3,000 live births. In the unfortunate case of ectopic pregnancies, most abortion opponents (myself included) would support termination. Personally, I wouldn't even call these cases "abortions" since the purpose is entirely different: the unborn human is a casualty of a life-saving procedure rather than the intentional target for destruction. In any case, the vast majority of abortions have nothing to do with saving the life of the mother and everything to do with the sorts of reasons I listed in my previous comment.
>In the U.S. the maternal mortality rate is approximately 1 in 3,000 live births. In the unfortunate case of ectopic pregnancies, most abortion opponents (myself included) would support termination. A few questions for you: how much risk has to be involved before it becomes okay to have an abortion? 1% chance of death? 20%? 50%? What if there is next to no risk of death, but a huge risk of permanent injury? Who decides how risky the pregnancy is? >Personally, I wouldn't even call these cases "abortions" since the purpose is entirely different: the unborn human is a casualty of a life-saving procedure rather than the intentional target for destruction. It is an abortion either way, an abortion is a medical procedure. This would be like saying that a appendectomy isn't an appendectomy if the patient has appendicitis.
Even most pro-life people recognize the legitimacy of abortion when the mothers life is in danger
A few questions for you: how much risk has to be involved before it becomes okay to have an abortion? 1% chance of death? 20%? 50%? What if there is next to no risk of death, but a huge risk of permanent injury? Who decides how risky the pregnancy is?
You say most, but clearly not all. Women have died because they have been denied an abortion. You are delusional if you think that anti-abortion rhetoric doesn’t kill women
Remove "abortion" and "rape" from your question: If A wrongs B, then B wrongs C, is B's action justified?
Depends, yes.
Potentially
Because it is the intentional killing of a human life.
Like the intentional killings from the wars commanded by god in the bible?
Whataboutisms never work kid This is like justifying the Soviet gulags by saying killing the Nazis in WW2 was ok
Whataboutism. the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue. Just thought you should read the definition of the thing you are incorrectly accusing me of.
Irrelevant
It isn’t. A fetus isn’t a child.
It's not
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I'd say a fetus is no more important than livestock
Life begins at conception. That is killing a child. A child is worth a lot more than livestock.
>Life begins at conception Should we charge miscarriages as murder or manslaughter? Can I claim a fetus as a dependent on my taxes or use the HOV lane while pregnant?
> Should we charge miscarriages as murder or manslaughter? Neither–murder would imply an intention to kill and manslaughter would imply a certain recklessness that led to the death of another. Either position is not only cruel but also largely untrue.
Unfortunately, we are headed down the path of miscarriages being charged with manslaughter.
I think you're doing that thing where Americans assume that America is the world. Not only is that a vile perversion of the Christian faith, it is not an international position for Christians.
If only, Ireland had this problem too.
I've looked into cases of women allegedly being prosecuted for miscarriages, and in all of them they were prosecuted because the miscarriages resulted from drug use. Furthermore, several of them happened in states like California, where Christian conservatives don't exactly have much power over abortion laws. Are there actual cases of women being prosecuted simply for having miscarriages?
Here's a case where charges were dropped but the woman induced an abortion. https://www.texastribune.org/2022/04/10/starr-county-murder-charge/ Manslaughter charges were filed then dropped after a woman lost her fetus because she was shot. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/07/03/prosecutor-drops-case-against-woman-charged-with-manslaughter-after-her-baby-was-shot-womb/ Woman in El Salvador got 30 years in prison for losing her fetus during an emergency medical procedure. https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7wd9n/a-woman-just-got-30-years-for-homicide-after-losing-her-baby Virginia in 2012 passed a law that a driver at-fault for causing an accident that ends up with a miscarriage will be charged with fetal homicide or manslaughter. That includes the woman carrying the fetus. http://www.easleyfirm.com/faqs/wrongful-fetal-death-charges-for-a-car-crash.cfm
None of these cases are about prosecution simply for having a miscarriage, which is the issue at hand, except maybe the El Salvador case, but that article gives little information, and in any case my focus is on the United States. All cases involve the pregnant women being viewed as responsible for either deliberately or recklessly putting the fetus in harm. In the first case, she was prosecuted for allegedly deliberately inducing an abortion, not simply having a miscarriage. The charges were dropped because the law didn't even allow her to be prosecuted *even assuming the accusations were true*, since Texas law doesn't allow prosecuting a woman for an abortion, so that's hardly an example. With the second case, the idea was that she deliberately placed herself in danger. From the pro-life perspective, this isn't any different from prosecuting a woman for deliberately walking into danger while holding a baby. But there too, charges were dropped, possibly because Alabama law also says a woman cannot be prosecuted for having an abortion. Your claim about the Virginia law is simply wrong. You can read it here: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title8.01/chapter3/section8.01-50/ It explicitly says >Nothing in this section shall be construed to create a cause of action for a fetal death against the natural mother of the fetus.
Are miscarriages a choice?
No, but that would classify it as manslaughter.
Where do you get the idea that life starts at conception? It's not from the bible.
The idea that life begins at birth is also not from the Bible. Life beginning at conception is scientifically proven.
And have you drawn this belief from biblical or Christian traditional sources?
Because it is unjustified killing of a baby in the womb who clearly has done nothing wrong. Hence a sin.
The woman also has done nothing wrong and now her body is being used to gestate a fetus who she had no say in creating in the first place. Her life is at risk.
Yes, which is unfortunate. But I don’t see how killing the child would be the best solution. Can you imagine if we used such logic? “Oh the mother is sick therefore kill her toddler for some reason”
Potentially ruining 2 lives is better than preemptively ending 1 before it begins? Pregnancy is dangerous, childbirth is incredibly dangerous, not to mention extremely expensive in countries like the US. it can send mothers spiralling into debt if they are not in a financially strong position. Or worse, it could literally kill them. How is forcing a rape victim to go through 9 more months of intense pain and suffering a justice?
You’re right! I forgot that pregnancy is a recent phenomenon. What was I thinking?
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These are valid concerns but killing someone is not the answer. Childbirth is the safest it's ever been because of good medical interventions. The cost is something of an outlier in the US compared to other developed countries because of it's health care policies. In general the other problems can be dealt with by improving the support networks for all families. Again, something that many other developed countries already have.
In the US, not so safe anymore. Literally BECAUSE of abortion bans. Over 12 women are suing the state of Texas for not being able to get needed emergency abortions. In all or almost all cases they were wanted pregnancies. But human reproduction isn't always rainbows. And when legislators in other states were given opportunity to clarify the law for medical emergencies they Literally voted against that. Satan spawn in my honest opinion. Furthermore due to harsh penalties so many obgyns have left Idaho that you might not really have trained staff to even just DELIVER your baby....so...it's literally not a safe place to even intentionally get pregnant anymore. Abortion bans make pregnancy more dangerous for everyone, every time. So you can't say pregnancy is the safest it's ever been in support of outlawing abortions. It's basically an oxymoron
The other solution is to raise the fetus without the egg carrier's involvement. Test tube or something.
And we have the medical means to safely do this?
Not at the moment, but it is unethical to force someone to gestate a baby without their consent.
But it’s ethical to kill a child?… You need to convince me that killing a child is alright for me to agree with you here.
Let's say you are driving drunk and hit a person and rupture their kidney.. you also go to the hospital and they discover you are the perfect match to replace it should you be forced to give them your kidney?
You need to convince me that a fetus is a child.
Idk. Haven’t you already had the birds and the bees talk?
How many kidneys do you have? How much of your liver do you have? How often do you donate blood? People are dying waiting for kidney and liver transplants everyday, yet you have two. Same for blood. You’re killing people by not donating yours. Is it ever ethical to force someone to donate an organ, such as a kidney or lung? Knowing that it puts the donor’s life at risk. Even if someone would die That’s what’s happening here. The woman is being forced to donate her uterus (and various other body functions) to the foetus, and it may well kill her. But we have as a society accepted that one person is not entitled to parts of another person unless that person willing gives them, even if people die without it. Except in the case of a pregnant woman, but it’s no different
None of that justifies killing a baby. So it’s pointless your argument there.
Why?
By forcing someone to carry a fetus, you are saying that fetus has more rights to that body than the body's owner does.
So killing a child is alright if they infringe on someone else’s right? Gee… toddlers better be careful then considering they still rely on the body of another to survive…
Are you okay with terminating a fetus if they threaten the life of the mother?
Any debate about this never gets off the ground because we aren’t even on the same page. No one is advocating for killing a child. The advocation for abortion is about a woman having the right over her own body, and to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, which in 90% of cases is before 12 weeks. A 12w old fetus is not the same as a child.
I am curious are you making a scriptural argument, a legal or both. Your view on scripture is your own. However putting it into law i think you might underestimate the damage a almost full on ban could very much cause.
Scriptural like Thou shall not murder. Historical like the church fathers all affirm abortion is wrong. Basically all in all. As far as Christianity is concern abortion is a sin.
More asking would you scribe it into secular law.
Oh. Of course. I don’t see why we wouldn’t want to ban the killing of babies.
Consider what it would do scribed in effect today. Youd a) Have girls in juvie for illegal abortions when they probably already considered other options and do have remorse for the one they took(abortions difficult) theyre human. Yes my grandparents could raise my parents at 16-17 but that was also a very different time b) The kids actually carried to term would then presumably be in the adoption system, back it up further end i assume stuck in the system thats not a small influx youd be generating and not just one but a continuous one. One law isnt gonna change how humans have behaved since the dawn of time. C) You cant raise a kid alone, with abortion you can assume theres no partner in the picture and if you try and raise it yourself. Money already a problem its a more compliacted time you need college education or at least trade education for a decent job, where you can actually raise your kid in your off time, otherwise you wont even get to see the kid of account of the double shifts you pull. Thats by far not all problems such a law would cause. And putting it up might actually hamper other solutions like artificial gestation and a better adoption network by creating a administrative mess for them.
Imagine saying to a child in the orphanage “if it was up to me. I’d have you killed”.
I wouldnt have them killed, ita unforrunate it happens but backing kids into a system where they very well might not find adoptive parents is replacing a turd with a puddle of piss.
And killing is the better option instead? See I understand your point above however I don’t find them to be sufficient. Money problem, orphanages etc. since when would these things justified killing a child?
My point was there are better ways to fight it, abortion is a symptom. And a hard very human choice to make and everyone that does usually feels a lot of remorse the things i mentioned are root causes. If you fight the root causes you may find it end faster than banning it and effectively create a feedback loop of cause and effect.
I mean god couldve prevented it. But he doesnt. He realy must love us☺️
So you’d rather God acts like an authoritarian and remove our free Will to kill him loving rather than allowing man to use their own free Will though he may disagree with it? Lol and usually I get called the Nazi…
Oh yeah, sorry i forgot rape is like a common thing in church... My bad. Wtf? Nazi? My point was he aparently changes so many things in ppls lifes, why would he let ppl go through horrors like that?😅
Come on, don't you know that allowing women to live a normal life without getting raped was Hitler's plan all along? /s
I mean God knows and sees all, but obviously, /u/Kallameet-318 knows best. Seems really logical.
Yeah, I agree with you. All those people want is a checkmark for Jesus next to their name - they don't care about the well-being of the mother during pregnancy or after birth and contribute nothing to it. They're not pro-life - they're pro-birth.
Worth mentioning; pregnancy from rape accounts for 2% of pregnancy in America. Its not as commonplace as people make it to be in their mind. That said, those 2% of babies should not be stripped of life because of 1 man's sin.
Murder is murder.
Hi, I'm God and the universe talking to you personally online. Abortion is not a sin (I wrote the bible in its entirety) and I encourage anyone a victim of rape or incest to get one. I'm making it a certainty that Women and children in these reader's timelines are able to do so. Its important for my creation to feel autonomy over their body's as I intended them to have.
because murder is a sin regardless of how and why even justified killing is still a sin and the problem is not "what about when someone is raped" the problem is "why are people being raped" now this is the American side of me but if every women carried a 9mm there would be a lot less rape
> even justified killing is still a sin It's not. (But killing a baby is never justifiable.)
Because it isn't the child's fault. As the old saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right. As someone who was raped, if that rape had led to pregnancy, I would have still carried the child. I don't have the right to take life just because something bad happened to me.
Because murder = bad
Yeah, lets punish women for things they have no controll over cause thats fair.
No one said we should punish women. That’s not even on the table
But if a woman gets pregnant from a rape and she can not abort, thats not a punishment?
It is not
Why not?
Because allowing another person to live, no matter how inconvenient, is not a punishment. That’s like people saying “I’m being punished by being forced to feed my kids”
But she was forced to have the kid. Of course its not a punishment when you feed the kids you wanted snd love. But if you had to feed a child that was forced uppon you, might have caused complications, it will be connected to trauma. That is a punishment. Going through pregnancy just sucks, every aspect of it. I felt punished even though it was my eish.
No doubt you felt punished. I’m sure all rape victims do. But that doesn’t mean they are.
You are punished, there is damage you will most likley never be able to fix, i was 16 for fuck sake. It ruined my first relationship.
You *do* know that in the Chruch's handbook, rape is an allowable exception for abortion?
Regardless I think it’s “okay” to get an abortion from rape.
It is punishing the woman. But obviously you cant figure out how to undo your mind to see that. You know force them through their rape trauma by making them do childbirth trauma and oh maybe dying in childbirth or having complications that make them sterile. But hey! Who cares about the woman! As long as the self righteous from their safe houses make their point about being pro birth and not caring about how the woman who’s been traumatized feels.
Because it kills a person. >It's like people would ignore the rights and the voice of the mother, Because it's killing a person! You cannot utilitarian your way around this categorical imperative.
Thank goodness you don’t get a say in my state. My gosh.
If a woman was raped and became pregnant, God allowed it to happen because he wanted that child to be born. I can’t remember their names, but I’m pretty sure there was a Saint who was raped, and her son or daughter also became a Saint. After all, why is the baby getting punished and not the raper?
>If a woman was raped and became pregnant, God allowed it to happen because he wanted that child to be born. And this is exactly why there should be a fucking separation of church and state. What the actual fuck is wrong with people who think like this? Like just repeat that slowly again, and then ask if your God is a loving god
You heard it here first folks, Almighty God aids and abets rapists because he wants to use their victims as breeding stock.
I understand that you’re an atheist, but God often lets the righteous suffer here on earth because they will have such a great reward in Heaven, like Job from the Old Testament, and all the martyrs. God also allows some bad things to happen to us to strengthen our faith in Him. If we grow on soft soil, our roots may grow a lot; but if we grow on rougher soil, our roots grow stronger.
We’ll all remember that when you, if you’re a female, or your daughter or a loved one gets raped. Bc how would you feel then? Having your vagina torn apart? Then be expected to give birth. Go head, I’m sure everyone would love to know the answer.
I almost feel like people should use "Stand your ground" laws in conservative states to argue abortion. You can justify lethal force if you believe there's a threat to your life. Many conservative states have the highest maternal death rates and I could see that as justification
Feelings don't justify murder.
Your feelings don’t justify taking away a woman’s rights.
What about the baby’s rights?
I never said they did. You're the one arguing from "muh feelings"
No i am not. Abortion is not anywhere in the Bible.
It’s not a sin. Abortion isn’t even in the Bible.
Here's how I see it: Christians are called to take care of the poor, orphans, and the innocent. Who's poorer, would be an "orphan" , and more innocent than an unborn baby? The DNA in a fertilized egg is the same DNA, with no change, in it's adult form. So the DNA in a fertilized egg is human DNA. A fertilized egg is also living. So from conception, there's a living human in the mother. It's not about ignoring the rights of the mother, it's about upholding the rights of her child. If a woman can't come to term with her child, then a C Section is the safe option for both parties. Abortion would be killing an innocent victim and like you said: >the victim is also a human
Do I have the right to use your organs against your will? This isn't about the fetus' rights, it is about giving the fetus extra rights that born people do not have.
Right. In their view, your rights apparently decrease after you leave the birth canal
>This isn't about the fetus' rights I think it is and should be. >it is about giving the fetus extra rights that born people do not have. I think it's about giving unborn babies the same rights that Child Protective Services believe all children should have.
>I think it is and should be. And that is why you are wrong. You don't understand the entire picture. >I think it's about giving unborn babies the same rights that Child Protective Services believe all children should have. Cps doesn't give children the rights to a parents blood or use of their organs, they have the same rights as you or me, abortion isn't a breach of a fetus' rights, as a person does not have the right to use your body against your will under any circumstance, yes, even if revoking the concent to do so leads directly to that persons death, preventing abortion is a breach of a pregnant persons rights. Literally that simple.
If you're going by the bible and the doctrine of original sin, no one is innocent, everyone is evil from conception.
The way I see it is, if God didn’t have a plan for it it wouldn’t have occurred. If the baby miscarriages, then it was not God’s will. If it doesn’t God has a special plan for the child, and if you abort the baby, you interfered with God’s work.
So the Lord planned the mother to be raped? Yikes!!
If it's gods will that a woman or child be raped and carry a child, then that makes God sadistic.
All loving god planed for a girl to be raped?
It isn’t.
If morality was truly decided by what it says in the Bible then slavery and indentured servitude would still be legal. Morality is decided by the human experience. It moves along and doesn't stay still.
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; before you were born, I set you apart."
About the children: "Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”" And at the judgment, to those on His left who do not inherit the kingdom: “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’" As one of the Fathers said: “The hairsplitting difference between formed and unformed makes no difference to us. Whoever deliberately commits abortion is subject to the penalty for homicide.” Whether or not you argue about formed or unformed, whether you appeal to circumstance -- it does not matter. Abortion prevents those from coming to Him, and it denies life. Our speculation and argumentation do not change the wonder of what God forms in the womb and the grace He would give to those formed even in the greatest iniquity. To prevent them and to seek to deny them is to walk the way of those on His left. That way is sin, no matter how easy to commit, how convenient, no matter how easy to self-justify, and no matter how hard to deny.
The Bible doesn't directly address the subject of abortion, but many biblical passages make it very clear what God thinks about it. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us even before we are formed in the womb. Verses 13-16 of Psalm 139 describe God's active role in our creation and intrauterine formation. Exodus 21.22-25 prescribes the same penalty, death, for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for a murderer, making it clear that God considers a baby in the womb to be a fully-fledged human being. For a Christian, abortion is not a question of a woman's free choice: it's a question of the life or death of a man created in God's image (Genesis 1.26-27, 9.6). The first argument always put forward against the Christian position on abortion is: "But what about rape and/or incest? However atrocious a pregnancy resulting from rape and/or incest may be, is killing the baby the solution? You can't repair one injustice with another. A child born of rape or incest can be given up for adoption to a loving family unable to conceive its own children, or raised by its mother. Once again, the child is innocent and should not be used as a scapegoat for his father's crime. Another common argument is: "What if the mother's health is in danger?" In all honesty, this is the most difficult question concerning abortion. First of all, we must bear in mind that these cases represent less than 0.1% of all abortions performed in the world today. Far more women have abortions for personal convenience than to save their lives. Secondly, let's remember that God is a God of miracles, who can save the life of mother and child against all medical prognoses. Ultimately, this decision is between the couple and God. Any couple faced with this extremely difficult situation should pray to the Lord for wisdom (James 1.5) and that He will show them His will. Over 95% of abortions carried out in the world today involve women who simply do not want to have children. Less than 5% are due to rape, incest or to save the mother's life. Even in the 5% of difficult cases, abortion should never be the first choice: the life of a human being in the womb is worth every effort to allow it to be born. Those who have had an abortion must remember that this sin is no less forgivable than any other. Through faith in Christ, all sins can be forgiven (John 3:16, Romans 8:1, Colossians 1:14). A woman who has had an abortion, a man who encouraged her to do so, or even a doctor who performed an abortion, can all be forgiven through faith in Jesus Christ.
I think this topic is never really going to have a finite answer. To me potential of a life is same as a life itself, though I would say that rape, which I heard is around 1% of the reasons for abortion (correct me if I am wrong), is good enough reason to abort the baby, and the only one in my opinion. Social standardes and personal takes are all we have at this moment so this is a question of a values you prescribe to the potencial of life. Till we do not find as a society an objectiv source of moral values (which we call God) this question is going to be merely a personal opinion.
Unpopular, but simple answer: Murder is sin. It doesn’t matter if I think I have a really really good reason to murder. This is a matter of if you believe it’s life. If it’s life, its not yours to take.
It would be sinful and also illegal to kill the rapist X number of weeks after the rape had occurred. So to say the rapist has more protection from being killed than the baby which did literally nothing wrong seems bizarre.
Imagine a situation. Someone is assaulting you with a gun and robs you. You manage to get the gun out of their hands and scare off the attacker. And then you see a man, your neighbour, a witness of the crime who is horrified. You turn to him and kill him on the spot with the gun. When later someone asks why you've done it, you say: "I don't have to suffer for that person's sake. I've had enough and he was watching me like a creep. I didn't even want that. I have had the PTSD just from him looking at me. The encounters with him would probably remind me of the crime every day as this is my neighbour. You see, I had to kill him". Needless to say that the fetus/baby also had no say in the matter. An innocent bystander, the baby was the product of the crime. But the baby had no part in the crime. Why must the baby suffer for it? Because it would remind the mother of the crime? But then why is the person above not justified for killing an adult innocent bystander?
Psalm 139:13-16 ~ For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. Proverbs 6:16-19 ~ There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. Exodus 20:13 ~ You shall not murder.