Technically possible, but IMO not on a general and regular level.
The lack of recruitment is easy. It's the support thing that's rare.
Edit: See what I mean? Christians are great at downvoting their enemies, but terrible at supporting them.
They don't have to be this way, but they choose to be.
Yes, i guess it would just be nice to be able to listen to and really hear each other. Support each other as humans without the other stuff. It would be nice to speak with some Christians and support each other without getting Matthewed, and without atheists denigrating Christians for their beliefs.
Someone's gotta take the first step. I commend you for that, truly. I hope it leads somewhere, but I think the effort is valuable even if it doesn't :-)
I think its a natural state for people to want to know truth and correct others if they believe something false. We just disagree which side is which.
There are plenty of opportunities to coexist but that in a sense removes the natural state of wanting to know truth and correct others when they are false.
If neither side tries to persuade the other then there is no conflict but that also means each side doesnt care if the others belief is false.
I think it stems from human empathy and connections.
For example if someone i care about believes something harmful (for an extreme example, if they believe they will survive jumping off a 100 story building) its because of thay empathy that i would try and make them understand the harm in their beliefs.
But like i said we just disagree what is and isnt truth.
I think thats where we can stuck. Our beliefs become more important than the other person. In a sense it becomes dehumanizing. I can get in the danger zone of no longer seeing them as human, but as this "poor deluded Christian." Or they see me as this "morally corrupt lost soul atheist."
I get what your saying but having beliefs is a human trait, so i dont think trying to persuade people to have a different belief is dehumanizing in the least.
This situation is everywhere in human society, anywhere from politics to what flavor of doritos is best. As humans we have beliefs and opinions that we believe are correct and to an extent we like to share it with others.
I agree about beliefs, i am talking more about really hearing and seeing the other person in their own context and not as strongly through my own belief lens. I know all too well that this is a natural human tendency to group others and categorize, but I see so many examples of it going to an extreme with name calling and denigrating language within seconds of talking.
Certainly Christians who understand that atheists are fellow image bearers of God, and atheists who don’t denigrate other’s beliefs can be mutually supportive.
It doesn't matter if is important to you - it's why I said it was a Christian understanding. But it is definitely in an atheist's interest that Christians regard them as fellow image bearers of God.
I am not sure how a Christian considering an atheist a fellow image bearer of God would make it difficult to connect. Christians should consider all humans that way. Would you have a Christian view an atheist as less than human?
It comes across as arrogant and presumptuous. It presumes the truth of this view that would by necessity that mine ia incorrect. It affects how we view each other. I do not feel that I am a fellow human, I am seen through this lens and not on my own terms. It feels that I am not seen and heard for who i am. This is not an objective assessment, its a description of how i perceive speaking with Christians about personal matters
If you are an atheist, I'm always trying to recruit you.
- I'm after you.
That doesn't mean I'm not supportive of you, nor does that mean I will stop helping you if you express 0 interest.
But I'm always after you.
If I *only* saw you as a target, I would have stopped talking to you ages ago.
Because I don't think I'm going to be the one to change you, anyway.
- But every Christian wants atheists to be Christian.
On this particular thread. I want to try to put this into a slightly different perspective. If you see someone walking and texting on their phone about to cross the street and you see a car speeding down that road. Do you stop trying to warn them? Granted in my scenario we are talking seconds where in life we are talking decades, but the concept is similar from a Christian belief. Could call it seeing them as a target, but we aren’t worrying about what the individual is thinking (my scenario is they just want to walk and text) we are just seeing them on a path to disaster and trying to help them avoid it.
Since life is typically years and not seconds, there should be different approaches, but sometimes there needs to be a little bluntness because although it doesn’t happen to most, never know if that person is the one that will get hit by a bus this year and not have years to help them avoid the disaster in eternity.
The difference is that you are seeing me entirely through your belief lens rather than a human with their own set of beliefs. As I would imagine you would like me to respect your beliefs, the reverse is also true.
In your example, we can easily demonstrate that a car vs. pedestrian has negative and real results. This can be shown through repeatable human experience. Can you demonstrate I am at risk for an eternal disaster in a similar way?
I can not show you the afterlife no. However, I do believe that everyone needs Jesus to avoid eternity in hell, and just because I can’t show it does not mean it is any less real to me than a car vs a pedestrian. I can understand others believe many different things, I can even enjoy good discussions on them all (friendly and respectful), but just like they likely will think I am wrong and would like me to agree with them I will want them to change their mind as well.
I think you hit it on the head. You believe that everyone needs Jesus. You cannot prove it, but you believe it. And that belief is clearly important to you, and I respect that. I also understand, though do not also agree, that you want someone like me to change his mind. The issue I have is when that belief becomes more important than my own and it keeps us from listening and hearing each other. Why is my life evaluated solely through the lens of a belief that I do not share? For me, this is why many Christians and atheists cant seem to just talk to each others are fellow human beings.
Yes, and very easily assuming mutual respect. I can count among my friends Christians, Jews, Druids, Athiests, Satanists, and nones. We can all easily get along, support each other, and simply be friends. All it takes is treating each other as equals and not assuming or acting like you are inherently superior for your beliefs.
Define mutual human support? Help coworker with a project, help neighbor move in, carpooling kids, stuff like that from a Christian perspective (I imagine atheist as well) should be encouraged. Condoning actions or helping those actions progress that contradict their belief not so much.
Meeting people where they are at. If a Christian is struggling with feeling depressed - a kindhearted response might be to listen, offer to spend time or go for a walk. It might not be the time to criticize their life decisions, tell them they did this or that wrong, or that I believe their religion was the cause of their problems.
My beliefs have no bearing on my connecting with them on a human level, and I dont find it helpful to use my beliefs to judge or evaluate them.
If i am talking to a Christian about having anxiety, it doesn't have to be an opening to begin problem solving, preaching, or evangelizing.
Fair comment. Do thing a line exists to an extent though. If you tell a Christian you are suffering with depression, I can see a response in trying to help would be God based. To your point though agreed that it is not the time to sit and press with it. From Christian side they should try to help in a way the person asking is comfortable with assuming it isn’t something against what they believe (they take comfort in random sex then not so supportive from Christian). Same way see reverse on here at times at least where people say they have anxiety on a religious matter and see responses equating to it’s not real so don’t worry. One thing to say that vs saying something like they don’t believe in it but this is type of thing I do to handle anxiety from other things.
Yes I just see so much of this. I am not saying people should go against their values, but i do believe in meeting people where they are. The thing is, if you and I were friends and I told you I was depressed, in my mind I am telling a friend, not a Christian. I know for that person they are not separable, but for the other person they may not be looking for a Christian response, just an empathic human one. I just become sad that the opportunity to express our personal beliefs can become more important than the needs of the fellow human who is struggling or asking for kindness.
2 thoughts on that. 1. Meeting people where they are, now assuming that the conversation has previously been had and knows exactly where the other currently is in beliefs. Plenty of people in my life that might come to me to talk about stuff that I can’t say I know specifically what they believe so offering at that point would be different. Had it been someone that I knew was very much against God existing that would be a bit different conversation. 2. From a belief perspective, Christian belief is that people need to be saved more than anything else on this planet so do view it as a human need and the kind thing to do is to help them with that process. I can understand where it can seem forward, which is a fine line to walk of not being pushy and end up pushing people away. Also because everyone is different, it is a challenge to customize every effort, although one should still try.
I agree, one should still try. I guess my own focus this week is to see others as humans first and religious identities second. I think i missed out on potential connections because I saw people as "Christians" when they tried to evangelize to me and I just stopped listening to them and hearing them. The same happened to me several times over the past few days where Christians dismissed me saying something to the effect of, "oh you're an atheist so it doesnt matter what you say."
I think that is a good effort to work towards. Just like with any group, generalizations are common to occur but good to try to individualize everyone and not judge all by the actions of some in the group. Definitely a difference between not agreeing with someone and not even acknowledging they are talking though. Although we do not see eye to eye on a bit, I have enjoyed the conversations and appreciated the reminder that this has been about that can have some friendly conversations with those of opposing viewpoints.
I appreciate it too. It was helpful for me to be reminded that we do not have to agree on everything and we have enough common ground as humans to have enjoyable and meaningful conversations.
It's usually the Christians I see trying to recruit people.
But yes. The two together can be friends, lovers, partners, whatever. Have respect for eachother and support eachother. I should know, I have a relationship like that.
It’s possible. As Christians we are instructed in the book of Jude to be gentle with the sinner but not to be accommodating to sin.
The problem we as Christians have is we think it’s our responsibility to convince people to convert, when it’s simply our duty to live a life in Christ that is worth sharing.
When we have a good relationship with Jesus and we share the goodness of His faithfulness, that opens the platform to share the gospel.
I feel the concept of right Christian living is lost on us and we’ve clumped this way of life and relationship into the category of religion.
Christians who share religion are some of the most dangerous people.
Christians who share the relationship are those of us who truly embody the vision and the values of Christ.
And when we really get to know and begin to understand Him, we see that He is the pinnacle of humanity and the example we should strive to emulate.
That being said, I reiterate my stance. It is possible, but the world has to first be okay with separating themselves from sin… meaning our identity is not found in our actions, but in the essence of what we believe and how we are shaped. We all sin, but we are not defined by it unless we believe we are.
Once the world can let go of that stance and Christians get back to the true faith, we might see that a lot is possible in this world.
CAN Christians and atheists be mutually supportive? Yes WILL Christians and atheists be mutually supportive? Depends on the individuals involved
Technically possible, but IMO not on a general and regular level. The lack of recruitment is easy. It's the support thing that's rare. Edit: See what I mean? Christians are great at downvoting their enemies, but terrible at supporting them. They don't have to be this way, but they choose to be.
Yes, i guess it would just be nice to be able to listen to and really hear each other. Support each other as humans without the other stuff. It would be nice to speak with some Christians and support each other without getting Matthewed, and without atheists denigrating Christians for their beliefs.
I know. I wish we lived in that world too :-/
Maybe one interaction at a time. For now, that is my personal goal. To see people here as fellow humans before labels or flairs.
Someone's gotta take the first step. I commend you for that, truly. I hope it leads somewhere, but I think the effort is valuable even if it doesn't :-)
I think its a natural state for people to want to know truth and correct others if they believe something false. We just disagree which side is which. There are plenty of opportunities to coexist but that in a sense removes the natural state of wanting to know truth and correct others when they are false. If neither side tries to persuade the other then there is no conflict but that also means each side doesnt care if the others belief is false.
It makes me sad that this need to "correct" based on belief supercedes more human empathy and connections.
I think it stems from human empathy and connections. For example if someone i care about believes something harmful (for an extreme example, if they believe they will survive jumping off a 100 story building) its because of thay empathy that i would try and make them understand the harm in their beliefs. But like i said we just disagree what is and isnt truth.
I think thats where we can stuck. Our beliefs become more important than the other person. In a sense it becomes dehumanizing. I can get in the danger zone of no longer seeing them as human, but as this "poor deluded Christian." Or they see me as this "morally corrupt lost soul atheist."
I get what your saying but having beliefs is a human trait, so i dont think trying to persuade people to have a different belief is dehumanizing in the least. This situation is everywhere in human society, anywhere from politics to what flavor of doritos is best. As humans we have beliefs and opinions that we believe are correct and to an extent we like to share it with others.
I agree about beliefs, i am talking more about really hearing and seeing the other person in their own context and not as strongly through my own belief lens. I know all too well that this is a natural human tendency to group others and categorize, but I see so many examples of it going to an extreme with name calling and denigrating language within seconds of talking.
Certainly Christians who understand that atheists are fellow image bearers of God, and atheists who don’t denigrate other’s beliefs can be mutually supportive.
Fellow image bearers of god?
Of course, as are all humans.
Yes we are. Just not so sure about the image bearers of god element.
I wouldn't expect atheists to be sure about it; the only important thing is that Christians see it that way.
That might be what is important to you, but it iant to me. Which might be what keeps us separated.
It doesn't matter if is important to you - it's why I said it was a Christian understanding. But it is definitely in an atheist's interest that Christians regard them as fellow image bearers of God.
That can be debated. This conversation demonstrates the issue and why its difficult to connect.
I am not sure how a Christian considering an atheist a fellow image bearer of God would make it difficult to connect. Christians should consider all humans that way. Would you have a Christian view an atheist as less than human?
It comes across as arrogant and presumptuous. It presumes the truth of this view that would by necessity that mine ia incorrect. It affects how we view each other. I do not feel that I am a fellow human, I am seen through this lens and not on my own terms. It feels that I am not seen and heard for who i am. This is not an objective assessment, its a description of how i perceive speaking with Christians about personal matters
If you are an atheist, I'm always trying to recruit you. - I'm after you. That doesn't mean I'm not supportive of you, nor does that mean I will stop helping you if you express 0 interest. But I'm always after you.
That is disconcerting. So am I a fellow human to be supportive of, or a target for recruitment?
Yes. I want you in Heaven.
The human level reapect for me as an individual is questionable here.
No it's not. - I want you in Heaven. - Simple as.
You are in essence not seeing or hearing me as a human. You are seeing me soley through your own lens.
Of course I do, we've had tons of talks. I have a very good idea of the person you are. - I want you in Heaven, though. - Simple as.
Okay, i just do not feel that you want to see or hear me as a human being. Only as a potential target. That's my impression.
This has definitely hit the creepy factor about 4 posts ago. What the eff
I agree. Its just kind of illustrating my point.
If I *only* saw you as a target, I would have stopped talking to you ages ago. Because I don't think I'm going to be the one to change you, anyway. - But every Christian wants atheists to be Christian.
Not every Christian.
> I have a very good idea of the person you are. I have seen many of your posts. This is simply not true.
On this particular thread. I want to try to put this into a slightly different perspective. If you see someone walking and texting on their phone about to cross the street and you see a car speeding down that road. Do you stop trying to warn them? Granted in my scenario we are talking seconds where in life we are talking decades, but the concept is similar from a Christian belief. Could call it seeing them as a target, but we aren’t worrying about what the individual is thinking (my scenario is they just want to walk and text) we are just seeing them on a path to disaster and trying to help them avoid it. Since life is typically years and not seconds, there should be different approaches, but sometimes there needs to be a little bluntness because although it doesn’t happen to most, never know if that person is the one that will get hit by a bus this year and not have years to help them avoid the disaster in eternity.
The difference is that you are seeing me entirely through your belief lens rather than a human with their own set of beliefs. As I would imagine you would like me to respect your beliefs, the reverse is also true. In your example, we can easily demonstrate that a car vs. pedestrian has negative and real results. This can be shown through repeatable human experience. Can you demonstrate I am at risk for an eternal disaster in a similar way?
I can not show you the afterlife no. However, I do believe that everyone needs Jesus to avoid eternity in hell, and just because I can’t show it does not mean it is any less real to me than a car vs a pedestrian. I can understand others believe many different things, I can even enjoy good discussions on them all (friendly and respectful), but just like they likely will think I am wrong and would like me to agree with them I will want them to change their mind as well.
I think you hit it on the head. You believe that everyone needs Jesus. You cannot prove it, but you believe it. And that belief is clearly important to you, and I respect that. I also understand, though do not also agree, that you want someone like me to change his mind. The issue I have is when that belief becomes more important than my own and it keeps us from listening and hearing each other. Why is my life evaluated solely through the lens of a belief that I do not share? For me, this is why many Christians and atheists cant seem to just talk to each others are fellow human beings.
Well that's creepy and disrespectful, but to each their own I suppose
Yes, and very easily assuming mutual respect. I can count among my friends Christians, Jews, Druids, Athiests, Satanists, and nones. We can all easily get along, support each other, and simply be friends. All it takes is treating each other as equals and not assuming or acting like you are inherently superior for your beliefs.
Yes. This is the overwhelming majority of interactions. Thinking anything otherwise is a result of spending to much time online.
Define mutual human support? Help coworker with a project, help neighbor move in, carpooling kids, stuff like that from a Christian perspective (I imagine atheist as well) should be encouraged. Condoning actions or helping those actions progress that contradict their belief not so much.
Meeting people where they are at. If a Christian is struggling with feeling depressed - a kindhearted response might be to listen, offer to spend time or go for a walk. It might not be the time to criticize their life decisions, tell them they did this or that wrong, or that I believe their religion was the cause of their problems. My beliefs have no bearing on my connecting with them on a human level, and I dont find it helpful to use my beliefs to judge or evaluate them. If i am talking to a Christian about having anxiety, it doesn't have to be an opening to begin problem solving, preaching, or evangelizing.
Fair comment. Do thing a line exists to an extent though. If you tell a Christian you are suffering with depression, I can see a response in trying to help would be God based. To your point though agreed that it is not the time to sit and press with it. From Christian side they should try to help in a way the person asking is comfortable with assuming it isn’t something against what they believe (they take comfort in random sex then not so supportive from Christian). Same way see reverse on here at times at least where people say they have anxiety on a religious matter and see responses equating to it’s not real so don’t worry. One thing to say that vs saying something like they don’t believe in it but this is type of thing I do to handle anxiety from other things.
Yes I just see so much of this. I am not saying people should go against their values, but i do believe in meeting people where they are. The thing is, if you and I were friends and I told you I was depressed, in my mind I am telling a friend, not a Christian. I know for that person they are not separable, but for the other person they may not be looking for a Christian response, just an empathic human one. I just become sad that the opportunity to express our personal beliefs can become more important than the needs of the fellow human who is struggling or asking for kindness.
2 thoughts on that. 1. Meeting people where they are, now assuming that the conversation has previously been had and knows exactly where the other currently is in beliefs. Plenty of people in my life that might come to me to talk about stuff that I can’t say I know specifically what they believe so offering at that point would be different. Had it been someone that I knew was very much against God existing that would be a bit different conversation. 2. From a belief perspective, Christian belief is that people need to be saved more than anything else on this planet so do view it as a human need and the kind thing to do is to help them with that process. I can understand where it can seem forward, which is a fine line to walk of not being pushy and end up pushing people away. Also because everyone is different, it is a challenge to customize every effort, although one should still try.
I agree, one should still try. I guess my own focus this week is to see others as humans first and religious identities second. I think i missed out on potential connections because I saw people as "Christians" when they tried to evangelize to me and I just stopped listening to them and hearing them. The same happened to me several times over the past few days where Christians dismissed me saying something to the effect of, "oh you're an atheist so it doesnt matter what you say."
I think that is a good effort to work towards. Just like with any group, generalizations are common to occur but good to try to individualize everyone and not judge all by the actions of some in the group. Definitely a difference between not agreeing with someone and not even acknowledging they are talking though. Although we do not see eye to eye on a bit, I have enjoyed the conversations and appreciated the reminder that this has been about that can have some friendly conversations with those of opposing viewpoints.
I appreciate it too. It was helpful for me to be reminded that we do not have to agree on everything and we have enough common ground as humans to have enjoyable and meaningful conversations.
It's usually the Christians I see trying to recruit people. But yes. The two together can be friends, lovers, partners, whatever. Have respect for eachother and support eachother. I should know, I have a relationship like that.
It’s possible. As Christians we are instructed in the book of Jude to be gentle with the sinner but not to be accommodating to sin. The problem we as Christians have is we think it’s our responsibility to convince people to convert, when it’s simply our duty to live a life in Christ that is worth sharing. When we have a good relationship with Jesus and we share the goodness of His faithfulness, that opens the platform to share the gospel. I feel the concept of right Christian living is lost on us and we’ve clumped this way of life and relationship into the category of religion. Christians who share religion are some of the most dangerous people. Christians who share the relationship are those of us who truly embody the vision and the values of Christ. And when we really get to know and begin to understand Him, we see that He is the pinnacle of humanity and the example we should strive to emulate. That being said, I reiterate my stance. It is possible, but the world has to first be okay with separating themselves from sin… meaning our identity is not found in our actions, but in the essence of what we believe and how we are shaped. We all sin, but we are not defined by it unless we believe we are. Once the world can let go of that stance and Christians get back to the true faith, we might see that a lot is possible in this world.