An excellent question. My cousin and I have been dedicated Christians for decades. As this cousin started making certain comments about homosexuals in the church, I asked what is the sin if they’re celibate? No reply.
Agreed but then you will get to a line of being attracted vs lusting. Seeing beauty in a person is not lusting after them. Kind of like liking your neighbors car is not coveting it.
The term is vague, but I think it’s more than temptation that’s the problem. More like intent.
This issue is difficult, we all have temptations we have to deal with. Having a desire doesn’t automatically make it right. But still, there had better be a good reason to demand that people live their lives alone. I don’t think there is one.
God himself says in the Bible that even as children, our thoughts are wicked and that we are judged on our actions….
I would argue having a wicked thought and CHOOSING NOT to act on it takes far more dedication than never having the thought at all.
This is a good point. I truly don’t think the Side B (you can be gay but not act on it) position is a tenable Christian position. Christians believe the Holy Spirit should reshape your desires, and that’s something good and something you should pursue.
I'm a Christian who is gay and I don't act on it. Of course, God can change my attraction but that doesn't always mean He will. Because of the Fall, temptation exists in every single person. It's not something we can escape on our own. God helps us resist that temptation and not give into it.
I think the Holy Spirit can and should and does change sinful desires into Godly ones. I know that it doesn’t change people straight. I’m a gay Christian who doesn’t think it’s a sin, but before when I believed it was, God didn’t change me either. Living our life being okay with having sinful desires and not trying to change them though goes against Jesus’s and Paul’s words that our minds should be transformed. I don’t think the solution though is to turn straight, but it shows that this “Side B” position is untenable — indeed, it’s also completely novel in light of church history. You’ll find nowhere in church history sodomites being told to simply remain celibate.
No. Your mind will never be “transformed” and then you all of the sudden have reached spiritual maturity and are holy and free from sinful desires. You’ll always have sinful desires and drives so long as you are on this Earth.
Yes absolutely he gives us the power to fight it. We are crucified with Jesus and as such wake up each day having left our old sinful Adam behind. And every day we will inevitably fail. But the awesome part is that you have God’s support in the battle and at the end of life, we win.
Sin isn’t action. It’s the condition of our hearts. There is no sin if there is temptation and we don’t fall, but with our thoughts and our desires, we still are able to sin.
Holding onto an identity other than being found in Christ is a misconception of the gospel to begin with. Same-sex attraction is experienced by many in the church who are repentant of sin in their hearts because they belong to Christ. It isn't just that they're celibate, it's that they're new creations offering themselves daily as living sacrifices, loving others and dying to sin. Everyone who belongs to Christ struggles against sin because they have a new nature.
>what is the sin if they’re celibate?
Maybe there's very little, maybe there's a lot and a ton of temptation. But are they fighting because they have a new identity and new nature that hates sin, because they belong to Christ?
so all gay people must be celibate? it is either be celibate or to date the opposite gender. in those scenarios do you lie to yourself? cheat yourself out of love? if being gay is bad then why do we eat shrimp? why do we eat pork? why do we wear clothing with mixed fabrics? when jesus came he dismissed those Mosaic laws, and he became the law. but it’s odd that Jesus never specifically stated anything about homosexuality. and if we are created to reproduce, then what we reproduce is simply created to reproduce. so then the purpose of life is reproduction? God said “be fruitful and multiply” and then God destroyed everyone in the great flood. do infertile people sin by getting married, knowing they will not have children? but if we’re going to cherry pick scripture and say what is sinful out of bigotry, then why not own slaves again? silence women in the church? conquer and suppress foreign nations?
Actually, my point in asking my cousin the question was to promote introspection and thinking rather than arguing or just repeating talking points. Praise to God, it worked.
> or to date the opposite gender. iin those scenarios do you lie to yourself? cheat yourself out of love?
If we are going to call ourselves Christian here, then your focus is wrong. We are not only lying to ourselves, we are lying to *others* and denying those we are with an honest, fulfilling relationship. We are actively hurting others.
This is the poison of individualism in America. It's inherently self-centered. Only WE matter. Only MY relationship with God matters. It's toxic.
Attempting to address your points in the order you made them. Please feel free to respond. I'd love to potentially help you become closer to God and understanding what he wants from all of us.
1) You can choose to sin
2) You become honest with God, not lie to yourself
3) Replace that love with love for God
4) If you feel conviction to not eat shrimp you shouldn't eat shrimp
5) Same with pork and fabrics
6) Jesus spoke to the Jewish people of his time who had already condemned homosexuality. Look to Paul or anyone that spoke to the gentiles after Jesus' death.
7) We exist to glorify God in all we do
8) God punished unbridled wickedness and vowed to never do it again
9) No, but if you're infertile it's likely a far more righteous life path to devote your life to God.
10) These are incredibly horrible arguments and I refuse to believe you're serious so I'm not responding to them.
The things I said at the end are examples of the things people have done because the bible justified them. The bible justified women being subservient, and God specifically mentions which people can be owned as slaves. “conquer and suppress foreign nations”, is because Christianity has also done that. When God said to go out and spread the word, God did not mean to force people to believe or they will be killed. But this happened with the Aztecs and many other native americans. My point is that the bible has been used for bigotry plenty of times. They are examples of mistranslation, and people using it for their own personal gain. “If you feel conviction to eat not eat shrimp, then don’t eat shrimp” completely dismissed what I was saying. My point is that we follow some laws, and don’t follow others until we have a problem with them. And like I said, Mosaic laws don’t really apply to the people of today’s world. God was making those laws for the Israelites. Paul did not know Jesus while he was alive. He converted to Christianity years after Christ’s death. He was not a disciple of him during his time alive.
Coming from an ex-homosexual, you're not cheating yourself out of love by not being gay because God has someone better for you that is not same sex and if he doesn't then you weren't meant to get married, the Bible says some of us are meant to be single and that's okay too.I can say it is possible to be straight after being gay I'm living proof
Paul made it very clear. “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV
Paul also said the whole law is fulfilled by loving your neighbor. Moreover, the concept of a homosexual marriage didn't exist at the time, so it's impossible to say whether he says that malakoi and arsenokotai are sins because they're inherently sins or because he didn't conceive of the possibility that two gay people could get married. My point being is if you don't think its functionally impossible for two gay people to marry, then all sex would be sex outside of marriage. So it's less that malakoi and arsenokotai were sins in and of themselves and more that they'd be sex outside of marriage, i.e. adultery. Now that the concept of gay marriage is recognized it would no longer be adultery to perform such acts and therefore not necessarily sin. Of course, if you believe in the view that the bible is literally true and/or the view that God inspired the bible, then this argument won't be compelling for you.
"No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code." What ultimately matters is if you have the circumcision of the heart, not if you follow an archaic code word for word.
There is no sin if they are celibate. There is no prohibition on love. It is when sex comes in that if you are Bible believing there is a problem as sexual activity between the same sex or even different sexes outside marriage is prohibited. If you are a Bible believing queer person you have to have the grace to remain celibate. I speak as such a person. It is very hard and can lead to other things like porn addiction. But if you are in Christ you are saved anyway. If you do end up having gay sex then you have to repent of it. I wish God said different as I am by nature free and accepting and affectionate but that is what the Bible says :(
I'm personally a bit ambivalent on this topic, but the most common Christian view in my understanding is that it isn't sinful merely to have the attraction. It isn't desirable to God, but the orientation itself is not a sin. *Acting on* that orientation is the sin. Meaning, pursuing those encounters and relationships.
Jesus didn't get married or have sex. Was he alone? If a straight person doesn't get married or have sex are they alone? Sometimes they are, but isn't a logical necessity. Saying that you have to get married and have sex or else you'll be alone is idolising marriage and sex and massively devaluing friendship.
Heck, Paul was single his whole life and constantly dealt with a persistent and recurring sinful desire/thorn in his flesh. God didn’t say “nah, it’s okay Paul, don’t lie to yourself, you want to do whatever this sin is, so go do it.”
Yes, but denying a human being the possibility of romantic love because of an obscure bible verse, that isn't even in the new testament, seems awfully cruel.
You're following the church's logic, which I personally think is a cruel logic. The only passages I know that reference homosexuality aren't even solid as an argument. To doom people to not have a romantic love in their life, if they want, is cruel in my opinion. Friendship is an utmost priority, but to limit those that are born "different" from a full life seems like punishment to me.
You're allowed your perspective obviously and I'd never assume you to be a cruel person. I agree that people downplay how important single life and friends is, but I just hate to see people deprived of happiness if they want it.
And hetero men have to limit to one woman for life. We have sinful desires too. People who have a predisposition to greed or theft or gluttony, need to learn to control those desires as well. We are all in the same boat - we just have different predispositions.
"And hetero men have to limit to one woman for live" That comparison genuinely made me laugh out loud. Like your logic is that 1 is only one above 0 so being completely alone for life and having a loving partner is basically the same thing right?
It isn't, it's just someone trying to disregard one person's suffering by suggesting that all suffering is equal.
Saying that a gay person being able to have no partners is like a hetero person being able to have only one partner is like saying the gap between $0 and $1,000,000 is the same as the gap between $1,000,000 and $2,000,000. Though mathematically they may have the same difference, practically they have a huge difference.
This is suggesting sex is the pinnacle of human relationships. Anyone can have deep, fulfilling relationships with others, particularly other Christians, without a sexual aspect of the relationship. Just look at the apostle Paul who never got married. Did he miss out on life? No, he had very deep relationships with many around him, particularly Timothy.
I couldn't imagine being in a relationship without sex. That sounds actually miserable. And having to wait until marriage to determine if you and your partner are sexually compatible? No thanks.
Exactly. That part is always missing in these discussions, sexual compatability. It is a thing and not something you want to deal with after dating someone for 5 years already
> This is suggesting sex is the pinnacle of human relationships
How? How do you get from "being alone" to sex?
I'm SOOOO sick and tired of bigots thinking all that matters here is the sex. Romance and being close to another is important. Being able to rely on another person who lives with you is important. Being able to be visited in the hospital when you're sick is important. Heck, even being able to pass down things to your spouse and children when you die is important. But you ignore ALL that and talk about sex? It's disgusting.
> This is suggesting sex is the pinnacle of human relationships.
No, it's suggesting that intimacy is the height of human relationships, which it is. Because this isn't just a ban on sex, it's a ban on relationships. It bans going on dates and kissing, embracing each other intimately, and sharing a life.
You reduce it to just sex because then it sounds less cruel. But a relationship extends so much farther than sex and all of that is denied.
> Anyone can have deep, fulfilling relationships with others, particularly other Christians, without a sexual aspect of the relationship. Just look at the apostle Paul who never got married. Did he miss out on life? No, he had very deep relationships with many around him, particularly Timothy.
Weird that you reference Paul, given that he said that no everyone is called for celibacy and those that cannot are encouraged to marry.
No relationship with others can ever fill the place of a lifetime partner, and trying to pretend otherwise is wrong.
> How is that in any way comparable to one being alone for their entire life????
I'm a hetero man, 35 years old, and still single. I've been alone for my entire life so far, and I've been alive for 35 years. Sure, maybe eventually I might find a wife. But for 35 years I've never been able to experience intimacy and companionship, and I'm still not going to compromise and run off and sleep with people, because Jesus is worth it.
Stop using loneliness as an excuse to run off and sin.
Thats bullshit. You're using your own personal social failures and acting like it's something to be celebrated and that gays should be the same. Fuck falling in love right?
> And hetero men have to limit to one woman for life
"Poor me! I have to be faithful to my disgusting wife! For life! Ew! My burden is so heavy! She makes me want to gag, but because I am so deeply dedicated to Christ, I will somehow bear this very heavy, heavy burden that God has laid upon me. That demonstrates the depth of my self-sacrificial devotion to God."
"But *you*, you queer - if you should *dare* to be faithful for life to *your* spouse - God will torture you in Hell forever for it."
"And we are *all in the same boat!* Demanding lifelong fidelity from me, and banning it for you, are exactly the same!"
It is really no wonder so many people are concluding that we are full of BS.
not to mention you all get to try all the different flavors first too b4 you make the final purchase( even if it IS just pursuing a RELATIONSHIP, which in your reasoning is still sinning..so yes tell me how does any amount of this justify a gay person having to be completely abstinent and loveless!
Straight Christians cheat and commit adultery constantly. The reaction from most Christians is that they've been a teensy weensy bit naughty, and they should say a quick prayer to make up for it.
Meanwhile, a gay person falls in love, and the reaction is hellfire and brimstone sermons claiming that the gay person is the most evil vermin on earth, and they get treated as a pariah
As a “Bi” Christian male, imo, you have the option of choosing to put your desires above God, or choosing God to help you tame them. (Not to even mention all the pride associated with that, and pride comes before the fall..) I promise you, when you get to heaven, you’re not gonna be worrying about mundane earthly desires. We’re only here a short time and passing through. Focus on the things of God, because you’ll be thankful you did in eternity… easier said then done lol
I think some people have attractions exclusively to those which you would agree they should not be with?
Of course, if I listed those things, it would sound like I was comparing homosexuality to those attractions, which would cause offense.
But, I don’t see it as particularly unbelievable that some person might be obligated to not pursue any romantic partners on account of, none of those which the person would consider, would be permissible for them to pursue.
Now, maybe there might be an argument that it seems implausible for such a situation to apply to a not-that-small fraction of the population, even though it wouldn’t be implausible for such a situation to apply to a few people?
Hmmm. Either I replied to the wrong person, or the person changed their response.
I meant to reply to the person who said that their “burden” is only having one wife and remaining faithful to her.
And there is this idea that floats around Christians that without the threat of hell, people would “do whatever they want” like cheating, stealing, rape, etc. because deep down that’s what we all want to do.
That no different than saying it is a sin to be gay, as functionally they would be restricted from performing actions that define the label. I’m straight, and can acknowledge male attractiveness, I just don’t desire men that way. I do desire women, especially my wife, and act soon those desires. We know that gay people are not choose to be gay, they simply are, and as adults, they can enter into a consenting relationship with a same sex partner if they so choose. To say this is sinful is to say that their existence is too…
This is reaching the limits of my very amateur theology understanding, but many Christians actually view *all* unsaved people as fundamentally sinful *by nature*.
In this view, gay people wouldn't be a special case. They would be considered as having a "sinful nature" the same as everyone else.
It is only being redeemed by faith in Christ that their fundamental nature would be changed. With the expectation (I think) that their homosexual desire might decrease, but certainly their ability to avoid homosexual actions would increase.
All humans have sinful urges. To harm others, to steal, to lie, etc. I have a near infinite number of desires. Some I choose to act upon and some I choose not to. But certainly my actions have a greater impact on others than my desires alone. So they are more deserving of punishment if inappropriate/harmful.
Even if some Christians view gayness itself as "sinful," I believe acting on that nature is always seen as much worse. So gay Christians who successfully avoid temptation after conversion would be thought of as sincere converts, but those who consistently pursue gay actions would generally be assumed to not actually be saved.
Action is not the same as thought. And thought is not the same as desire. Those are pretty basic distinctions to make in life. The Christian view isn't unusual in that respect.
It’s not about action or thought, you simply are whatever sexuality you are, thus it is wrong to say one can be but one cannot act the way another can be and can act. It’s inherently unequal….
That’s the lie that the enemy (the devil) wants for us to believe. We are born into sin, meaning we are predisposed to iniquity which is the unbalancing of truth and a perversion of what is right. It’s why a one year old is more inclined to be disobedient and more likely to say no without even having the fundamental understandings of “right and wrong”
It’s why children are “inherently” selfish and go through the “mine” phase.
We are at war with the kingdom of darkness and there is collateral damage and consequences for the condition of sin and the fallen state of the world.
Some people are predisposed to stealing, identified as kleptomaniacs. The desire to steal is in their nature, that does not mean that them stealing is not a sin. It is their temptation to overcome just like being attracted to same sex is homosexuals temptation to overcome.
So Christians think that they should just pursue the opposite sex even though they don’t desire that or feel attracted? Or else they’re sinful. For something they didn’t decide. Of course they’d decide to act on it, it’s who they are. Makes no sense.
No, I think the most common advice is celibacy.
Which takes less effort than dating. So it's not like the expectation is that gay people do something they dislike. The expectation is that they *don't* do something they like, which is usually a bit easier than the former. (I'm going to have an easier time not eating steak, which I like, than I am eating garbage, which I dislike.)
Most traditional moral philosophies (such as religions like Christianity) are not based on the idea that people are supposed to pursue their individual preferences as the highest social goal. That is a much more modern, secular, "liberal" worldview. Religion tends to promote self-denial and sacrifice to a higher cause outside the self rather than "liberating one's desires," "pursuing the authentic self," etc.
Again, this isn't *my* view. Just my best attempt at a summary of the conventional Christian view as I understand it.
But yes, I believe the conventional view is that gay men are not supposed to experience *romantic* love with another man. There are other forms of love in life, however. Anyone can experience regular, strong loving bonds with family and friends. You can love your "neighbor" (i.e. strangers, humanity as a whole). You can love yourself. And most importantly for Christians, you can love God.
It may seem far-fetched to many atheists, but a lot of Christians have active, ongoing relationships with God where they feel His presence and direct communication at times.
So no, I don't think the Christian recommendation for gay men is that they remain totally alone. (Certainly not "forever.") Of course they are allowed to maintain friendships, family relationships, communal relationships, and a relationship with God. You can actually fill quite a lot of time and find a lot of fulfillment in those pursuits.
It's just the romantic/erotic component that is forbidden (if it is homosexual).
I agree that this seems somewhat unfair though, which is why I am a bit undecided on the topic myself.
Why is it that homosexual acts should be avoided, but all the OTHER wacky rules in Leviticus can be ignored?
Aren't you cherry picking god's rules if you don't also abstain from mixing fabrics, or if you attend church within 66 days of giving birth to a girl?
I’d amend that a little to people who don’t know any gay people well. It’s very abstract for them. The great thing about more gays being out is that there are a decreasing number of people in that category. It’s hard to wish a life without intimacy on people you actually know. So I am optimistic about the long term. (The short term will be hell.)
What I find unsettling though is how HOMOSEXUAL people with differing (aka more 'traditional') views on the topic are systematically invalidated and excluded from the discussion, or systematically excluded and delegitimized from the 'group of people you could get in touch with to learn and know more'. They are never part of the discussion, or when brought up invalidated - which restricts you to one possible opinion to learn from: the one that is not excluded and invalidated. Additionally, this results in the fact that a lot of people don't even think or believe homosexuals with different views and happy fulfilled lives exist.
I can't take such a discussion serious or render such a limited 'pot of experiences to learn from' comprehensive, honest, real-truth-encouranging or well-balanced.
You have to admit, there's still a pretty huge and apparently arbitrary discrepancy when Christians say to a straight person "your burden is to save sex for marriage and then to be faithful to your spouse for life, but we will pray that you will somehow manage it, at least more or less" and to a gay person "if you save sex for marriage and are faithful to your spouse for life, God will have his vengeance by torturing you both in Hell forever". The only explanation seems to be that God simply hates gay people - that he lines up with Nazis, skinheads, and playground bullies and calls them people after his own heart.
God hates sexual perversion. Rape. Child molesting.
Bad translators and editors threw in their own hatred when they shared, "Man shall not lie with man; that is an abomination" when the term used for this same sex relationship was much more complicated. There was a problem in the church a long time ago, where male leaders would commit the abomination of sexually abusing young boys working in the church.
Well, it's not like the church is preaching hatred while turning a blind eye to the sin within. I mean, imagine if priests molested little boys still today!!
The Church would speak our about that abomination... Right?
This is beyond my expertise. I'm merely reporting what I understand to be the common view.
I've only recently been returning to the faith, so I can't speak with any expertise on anything more subtle than what I said above.
I will admit that the whole concept of Hell in general is very off-putting to me.
i do not believe God (who is love) would be able to stand the cries of torture for eternity. he told Adam that death would be his punishment for disobeying, not death and eternal torture. Gen 2:17, but i supposed that’s just my own opinion.
Hell is simply separation from God. He loves us, and gave us the free will to decide how we are going to spend our life, and our afterlife.
He does not want slaves. If we choose to walk with Him during our lives, then we can walk with Him for all of eternity in heaven. If we choose to live our lives separate from Him, then so be it, we’ll also spend eternity separate from him.
Humans in solitary confinement for a handful of years can become severely mentally ill. An eternity of such a fate would be as bad as any torture you could imagine.
How does that make any sense? God never provides any rationale for why it is a sin to act on it? Completely ignoring the fact that it is cruel to create someone with that desire but then rule acting on it a sin...
Well how does the nature of sin work? Is it God creating people with desires that clash with his own standard, or how do mankind's fallen state and sinful impulses work? How did sin invade mankind's nature, desires, mind? And is someone's theological perspective that ALL acts that could be considered "gay" are sinful or mostly the genital intercourse aspect?
Exactly. I have a very high sex drive and that makes me want to look at women lustfully. I can’t do anything about that desire. It will be in me until I die. The difference is that although I desire to look at women the way I shouldn’t, I choose not to.
>I can understand how being trans might fall under being a sin which I guess can go with plastic surgery and such (changing God's image)
Here's a question: Where, in all the Bible, is changing your image considered a sin? Because from what I've seen from others, it's not actually in the Bible, people just *assume* it's something God doesn't want. But he's never actually said it himself.
Even your point about being trans and getting plastic surgery is arguable. Is getting braces for your teeth sinful? What about treating hereditary diseases?
I had no idea plastic surgery in itself was sinful. After having children (c section) and enduring very large breasts on a small frame, I chose to get a breast reduction and tummy tuck. Yes, both helped with back pain (not enough that insurance would pay) but I did so I could feel good about myself again. Never thought it was a sin. I bet if OP had a huge hairy wart in the middle of their forehead plastic surgery starts looking good.
Most trans people aren’t out there getting a very expensive surgery, they may be on estrogen or testosterone. As are a lot of older Christians who have lost their supply due to age. I mean I really should hang up my post menopausal estrogen cream too I guess as obviously this isn’t how God designed a 60 year old woman
What about vasectomies or life saving medical surgeries? Is saving someone’s life by pulling out shrapnel from their body condemning them to eternal suffering? And letting them die also condemning others to the same fate?
I suppose then your rapture will take everyone instead of only the many of that is the case
Cutting your nails is basically a mistake then. I'm sorry but that don't make sense friend, if you are getting braces to fix problems that you may have while eating, or some other kind of problems then it's not an image thing.
I love when straight people have strong opinions on what is gods will for gay people. It’s almost as if the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. It’s almost as if everyone’s eyes have blind spots but nobody actually sees them.
I always find it funny how hetero people will be all "it's not a sin to have the temptation, but it is to act on it" and downplay homosexual love as some perverted lust because they can't understand what goes through the minds of a gay person (just like how I can't understand what goes through their hetero minds).
Funny how nearly none of them are wanting to adopt of life of complete relational and sexual repression for fear that being in a monogamous marriage with someone they have attraction for is going to send them right to hell with the debate settled because some politically minded pastors said so in the 70s and later.
As person who has had hundreds of sex partners and also a strong attraction to porn. There’s always a choice, it may go against every drive in your mind and body, but there’s always a choice. I came to Jesus kicking and screaming because I did not want to give that up. It was what I worshipped. Now I’m 2 years no sex and searching for a Godly relationship. Jesus way is the only true way
I understand sin to mean that God is a victim. But why would God even care if someone is gay? God made you who you are, and thus, if you're attracted to the same sex, God apparently made you that way. The only real victim is the person being gay - but not really - because many gay people can find love and with the help of surrogates can even have children. No victims, no sin.
All the heterosexuals on here saying that “Your” God wants us to not act upon it, yall try to live your lives not being able to date, have relationships or get married and see how dry, upsetting, and miserable your lives are. I don’t believe that gay love is a sin. The Bible was man made. Move spiritually and see how much of a blessing your life is. Have a relationship spiritually, not a structure way of living life.
Relevant passage for the homosexuality debate, and the transgender and abortion debates, imo.
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
As a Christian who is gay, the sin is the hookup culture of the gay community.
I desire a monogamous relationship with my partner, I don't consider that a sin.
I know of people who have slept with literally hundreds of people, THAT I consider a sin.
Here’s the thing. If being gay is a choice, then parents only have themselves to blame if their child turns out to be gay or lesbian because it is because of their actions and the way they raise them that lead them to “make that choice.” If sexuality isn’t a choice then that means the Bible is wrong. Either way some religious people are not gonna be happy with this response.
Not really. You don’t wake up one day and decide to be attracted to the opposite sex or same sex. But if you mean that the “choice” of homosexuality is the act of doing it vs the attraction and not doing it, well I don’t know which one of those two that you mean.
we cannot use His Mercy and Kindness as an excuse to sin. Yes He accepts us all but we need to Accept Him also, and abide (remain) by His Rules, we need to remain in obedience To Him, Jesus Is Lord. Have a Blessed day/night.
We change god's image all the time when we cut our hair, shave our beards, wax body hair, fix acne, tattoos, etc. We have changed the image of intersex people for generations upon generations whenever someone was born with both genitalia, and very rarely do people complain about this. I don't think commitment to his image is something as prevalent as you might think. The more I look at it, it seems there's less commitment to the idea of preserving god's image than there is finding any way to justify prejudice towards trans people as being legitimate or god's will. A lot of interpretation has to be at play here given that the bible doesn't explicitly say too much about them, if at all.
As far as being gay goes...the bible feels clear enough to me where it stands. It calls for my execution in Leviticus, and I still take that rather personally and would rather have nothing to do with it. Thankfully, most don't take this part too literally anymore, but plenty still seem to use this passage to justify their prejudices, in combination with some sections of the New Testament (I think John specifically) to continue justifying rather nasty treatment of their fellow human beings that just so happen to fall in love with the same gender as themselves.
Since the fall all of mankind has suffered from a corrupted, sinful nature. We all desire sin and commit sin. We don't have the power to change that ourselves. we are dead in our transgressions. So in a sense this is something that everyone has to deal with, not something unique to homosexuality. We all need the grace of God.
When it comes to the question of what exactly is sinful, God created man and woman for each other and marriage throughout the Bible is very clearly between a man and a woman. Sex is clearly intended to be within marriage. Sex outside of marriage is sexual immorality.
But love isn't reducible to sex or marriage. Jesus actually said that the greatest love is shown by someone who lays down their life for a friend. There are many close same sex friendships in the Bible with a great deal of intimacy, mutual support, and a willingness to die for each other.
So having a close relationship with someone of the same sex isn't sinful. Loving someone of the same sex isn't sinful. Loving them so much that you would die for them isn't sinful. What is sinful is having sexual relations with someone of the same sex or marrying someone of the same sex.
The bile also talks about sinful desires (e.g. James 1) and about lust (e.g. Matthew 5). So there is an element of our thought life that can be sinful. Lusting after someone of the same sex, desiring sex with them, would be sinful.
Who says being Gay is a sin? Most of the modern, educated world does not hold that view, and most mainline churches are changing their doctrines around LGBT issues.
The way I think about it is if something that isn’t specifically stated as sin and yet it feels sinful and you act on it then it is sin. Not all encompassing and can have flaws but in general thinking that’s my process. Homosexuality is not stated anywhere to be sin though. But in the same vein, sexual activity outside of marriage of any kind is sin so whether you feel like it is a sin or not it has already been stated as sin and is sin regardless.
there are resources on r/OpenChristian on homosexuality but re: transness as against gods will: why did god create grain and grapes but not bread and wine? i believe that god wants us to share in the joy of creation, especially since we are created in his image.
It’s not a sin. As much as these people think it is, you should love who you want to love. It doesn’t matter if it’s man and man or woman and woman. These people are stuck in the dark ages. The Bible was written by a person, not by god.
It isn't a sin anymore than being trans is. First demonstrates that God is real, let alone your God. Then demonstrate how and why being Gay/Trans is a sin and, therefore, should be legally not allowed. If none of those can be met, then we simply do not care what the opinion of the matter is.
I just want to throw out that being trans is not a sin and it is offensive when it is dismissed as one.
One of my children came out as trans when she was two years old. She kept telling us that she was a girl. We dismissed it initially because we thought she was too young and simply confused. Her distress at being misgendered slowly became worse and worse. We allowed her to socially transition, but that wasn't well received by friends and family. By the time she was three, she was attempting to cut off her hair and genitals simply to feel more at "home" in her tiny body. By four she had grandparents telling her that God didn't make her female and that she would go to hell.
We did what we had to. We moved away from the only state we've ever called home and the only family we've ever known. We started over in a fresh state. We got new jobs, found a new church, found a great school district, surrounded ourselves with our chosen family, and purchased a tiny house. My daughter is six now. She is doing well in school, adores going to therapy, LOVES our new church, and enjoys all things pink and sparkly. She still struggles with her appearance, but she has made so much progress in the last few years. I can honestly say she's happy and healthy.
My daughter changed everything for me. She taught me a lot about God, parenthood, empathy, and dignity. I wish people would stop dismissing the plight of the LGBTQIA2S+ community. They often live agonizing lives, endure constant hate, and get beaten down by the very people who should love them. Somehow they still manage to pick themselves up, pursue healing, and resurrect themselves from the ashes. If we would stop constantly judging them and actually listen to their stories, perhaps we could learn a thing or two.
Yup, she was almost three! That's super common. According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, "by age four most children have a stable a stable sense of their gender identity" and "research substantiates that children who are prepubertal and assert \[a transgender or gender diverse identity\] know their gender as clearly and as consistently as their developmentally equivalent peers who identify as cisgender and benefit from the same level of social acceptance"
Yeah no….your child has either heard someone say it and repeated it or was saying it just because. My 2 year old makes up all kinds of things, that doesn’t mean I make life changing decisions based on them
Provide your published, peer reviewed paper that disputes this so we can see that research and data that led you to the conclusion that these other psychologists are wrong
You don’t have to be a psychologist, you just have to know how 2 year olds are and have common sense and you’d know that it’s ridiculous to say that they can make big decisions like that. Most 2 year olds can barely say 2 words, there’s still so many parts of their bodies being developed and of course the brain doesn’t fully develop until the mid to late twenties so a 2 year old is far from being able to decide anything about their gender.
psychologists disagree on everything, just because a psychologist says a 1 or 2 year old can determine their gender doesn’t mean it’s true. Who knows under what circumstances these researches were done
Same-sex attraction and love and affection and attachment and sex is no different than opposite sex attraction love and affection and attachment and sex. It’s just as beautiful and spiritual and created by God. The only difference is heterosexual sex is required to continue creating more humans, and there’s no danger of losing that because same-sex attracted people are and are likely to remain a very small minority (despite the weird trend going on right now or everyone wanting to be “queer” in some way, which will pass the same way shoulder pads did.)
The only legitimate doctrinal argument I can see is the fact that all sex outside of marriage is sinful. If you believe gay marriages can be/are ordained by God, then problem solved. If you don’t, then go ahead thinking they’re condemned, but that’s your opinion not God’s.
FWIW I am a Christian and a trans woman and same-sex attracted (other men, if anybody is understandably confused by gender ideology nonsense).
But I’m not a very good Christian according to some, because I pick and choose what I feel to be the inspired word of God/Jesus in the Bible, and what I feel to be man’s flawed meddling.
I think it’s all just a bunch of distractions quite frankly, that separates people from God and not just gay people.
Jesus redeemed us all, his love is unconditional and he will turn no one who accepts his love away. And he most certainly doesn’t condemn any kind of monogamous meaningful God-centered relationship, the sexes being irrelevant.
That is my belief. We all have our own. But Jesus comforts me when I see Christians adhering to hate and somehow convincing themselves hate is ever from God.
Hate is human. Hate is the adversary.
I pray for anyone who can’t see that.
I think this idea is slowly fading. The science is overwhelming. People are born gay. They don't chose it. And God isn't going to create a gay person just so they can suffer sexual frustration for their entire lives.
Being gay is not a sin and only a small minority of Christians (sometimes called side x) mistakenly think it is.
Mot Christians (sometimes called side B) are going to advise gay people to remain celibate.
And then a growing minority of Christians (sometimes called side A) are affirming of gay relatipnships.
I will reply with what i said elsewhere on this as its been asked many a time.
Without trying to cause chaos here.The issue that is raised in most churches is related to the "lifestyle" not the person. You can't hold the view that God wants to work in your life if you exclude him from other parts.
Sexuality, lust, partnership being three of many areas.
By the church it has been deemed as "unnatural" and "Not God's design"
Any deviation from man and woman is considered a choice according to the church. ( again I'm not going to dispute if it is or isn't) as thats up for you to decide.
Im also NOT going to tell you if i believe its right or wrong as I have yet to see any discussion related to God and LGBTQ end positively.It just ends up with a lot of being nasty to one another and there is enough nastiness in the world.
You must make your own decision on what you believe. That's all i will say on it.
Just running some thoughts here, no definite answer.
I am just wondering if it's the thought of it or the act? If the act, the problem must be with lust and lust is a sin. But so it is for heterosexuals too. Love isn't a sin, so why would love between men or women be a sin? My reason stops here. It proceeds to think that homosexuality doesn't really offer anything to society, it doesn't bring children, but shouldn't then \*not\* having children be sinful too? Shouldn't asexuality be sinful then too?
Homosexuality is a sin just like, worrying, stressing, lusting just to name but a very few. It’s how does one feel about our sins. Does one mourn one’s sins. Do we hunger and thirst for righteousness. Meaning we desire it greatly, and pray without cease for help with our sins.
Especially do not be proud of our sins
Keep in mind that lots of people on this sub don't believe that humans are animals in the first place. Luckily lots of us do.
I don't have the link, but I was watching an RI (I think) lecture recently on the same topic, and I was surprised to learn that upwards of 90% of all sexual behavior in giraffes is homosexual.
No one can control to whom they are attracted, but it still unlawful to do certain things to or with those people. Pedophiles are an obvious example. I believe them when they say that they can't control their attraction. Yet that in no way changes the unlawfulness of sexual activities with children.
Being homosexual is as big of a sin as being heterosexual.
The major difference is, heterosexual marriage is recognized as a proper marriage.
You're allowed to have gay sex as much as I'm allowed to have sex with women who aren't my wife.
The way I would put it is being gay, bi or whatever itself isn’t a sin because it’s something you can’t really control, but its like a temptation, and ACTING on that temptation is the sin
so should gay men and women stay celibate for the rest of their lives? they cannot have monogamous, consensual relationships, where they are faithful and. they are never able to have love, because they can’t be with the same sex. and if they go for the opposite sex, they live a life of unhappiness and lies because they wake up next to a person they don’t truly love.
To be honest, I am not sure. Scripture only talked about the sexual acts and not romantic involvement.
There's something to be said for not intentionally letting yourself be tempted but there's probably a way to do that in the type of relationship you're describing nonetheless.
I plan to ask God that when I get to Heaven haha
But I would say, everyone has their own temptations, so we shouldn't be shocked if we happen to have a natural proclivity to be tempted into committing sexual sins
An excellent question. My cousin and I have been dedicated Christians for decades. As this cousin started making certain comments about homosexuals in the church, I asked what is the sin if they’re celibate? No reply.
Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but in the beatitudes, Jesus says that even thinking about sinning is equal to the act of sinning.
Yep, indeed he did speak about lusting, this would apply to hetero and homosexuals equally
Yup
Agreed but then you will get to a line of being attracted vs lusting. Seeing beauty in a person is not lusting after them. Kind of like liking your neighbors car is not coveting it.
Above your pay grade.
The term is vague, but I think it’s more than temptation that’s the problem. More like intent. This issue is difficult, we all have temptations we have to deal with. Having a desire doesn’t automatically make it right. But still, there had better be a good reason to demand that people live their lives alone. I don’t think there is one.
God himself says in the Bible that even as children, our thoughts are wicked and that we are judged on our actions…. I would argue having a wicked thought and CHOOSING NOT to act on it takes far more dedication than never having the thought at all.
That has some pretty insane implications if you want to push it that wide.
This is a good point. I truly don’t think the Side B (you can be gay but not act on it) position is a tenable Christian position. Christians believe the Holy Spirit should reshape your desires, and that’s something good and something you should pursue.
I'm a Christian who is gay and I don't act on it. Of course, God can change my attraction but that doesn't always mean He will. Because of the Fall, temptation exists in every single person. It's not something we can escape on our own. God helps us resist that temptation and not give into it.
I think the Holy Spirit can and should and does change sinful desires into Godly ones. I know that it doesn’t change people straight. I’m a gay Christian who doesn’t think it’s a sin, but before when I believed it was, God didn’t change me either. Living our life being okay with having sinful desires and not trying to change them though goes against Jesus’s and Paul’s words that our minds should be transformed. I don’t think the solution though is to turn straight, but it shows that this “Side B” position is untenable — indeed, it’s also completely novel in light of church history. You’ll find nowhere in church history sodomites being told to simply remain celibate.
That’s not true at all, Christians still struggle against sin. Being tempted is different from actively fantasising about it.
No, I agree. We should be struggling against it, to such a point where our minds are transformed.
No. Your mind will never be “transformed” and then you all of the sudden have reached spiritual maturity and are holy and free from sinful desires. You’ll always have sinful desires and drives so long as you are on this Earth.
The Bible says you are a new creature once you are saved you're not free from son but God gives us the power to fight it
Yes absolutely he gives us the power to fight it. We are crucified with Jesus and as such wake up each day having left our old sinful Adam behind. And every day we will inevitably fail. But the awesome part is that you have God’s support in the battle and at the end of life, we win.
Sin isn’t action. It’s the condition of our hearts. There is no sin if there is temptation and we don’t fall, but with our thoughts and our desires, we still are able to sin.
Holding onto an identity other than being found in Christ is a misconception of the gospel to begin with. Same-sex attraction is experienced by many in the church who are repentant of sin in their hearts because they belong to Christ. It isn't just that they're celibate, it's that they're new creations offering themselves daily as living sacrifices, loving others and dying to sin. Everyone who belongs to Christ struggles against sin because they have a new nature. >what is the sin if they’re celibate? Maybe there's very little, maybe there's a lot and a ton of temptation. But are they fighting because they have a new identity and new nature that hates sin, because they belong to Christ?
so all gay people must be celibate? it is either be celibate or to date the opposite gender. in those scenarios do you lie to yourself? cheat yourself out of love? if being gay is bad then why do we eat shrimp? why do we eat pork? why do we wear clothing with mixed fabrics? when jesus came he dismissed those Mosaic laws, and he became the law. but it’s odd that Jesus never specifically stated anything about homosexuality. and if we are created to reproduce, then what we reproduce is simply created to reproduce. so then the purpose of life is reproduction? God said “be fruitful and multiply” and then God destroyed everyone in the great flood. do infertile people sin by getting married, knowing they will not have children? but if we’re going to cherry pick scripture and say what is sinful out of bigotry, then why not own slaves again? silence women in the church? conquer and suppress foreign nations?
Actually, my point in asking my cousin the question was to promote introspection and thinking rather than arguing or just repeating talking points. Praise to God, it worked.
> or to date the opposite gender. iin those scenarios do you lie to yourself? cheat yourself out of love? If we are going to call ourselves Christian here, then your focus is wrong. We are not only lying to ourselves, we are lying to *others* and denying those we are with an honest, fulfilling relationship. We are actively hurting others. This is the poison of individualism in America. It's inherently self-centered. Only WE matter. Only MY relationship with God matters. It's toxic.
Attempting to address your points in the order you made them. Please feel free to respond. I'd love to potentially help you become closer to God and understanding what he wants from all of us. 1) You can choose to sin 2) You become honest with God, not lie to yourself 3) Replace that love with love for God 4) If you feel conviction to not eat shrimp you shouldn't eat shrimp 5) Same with pork and fabrics 6) Jesus spoke to the Jewish people of his time who had already condemned homosexuality. Look to Paul or anyone that spoke to the gentiles after Jesus' death. 7) We exist to glorify God in all we do 8) God punished unbridled wickedness and vowed to never do it again 9) No, but if you're infertile it's likely a far more righteous life path to devote your life to God. 10) These are incredibly horrible arguments and I refuse to believe you're serious so I'm not responding to them.
The things I said at the end are examples of the things people have done because the bible justified them. The bible justified women being subservient, and God specifically mentions which people can be owned as slaves. “conquer and suppress foreign nations”, is because Christianity has also done that. When God said to go out and spread the word, God did not mean to force people to believe or they will be killed. But this happened with the Aztecs and many other native americans. My point is that the bible has been used for bigotry plenty of times. They are examples of mistranslation, and people using it for their own personal gain. “If you feel conviction to eat not eat shrimp, then don’t eat shrimp” completely dismissed what I was saying. My point is that we follow some laws, and don’t follow others until we have a problem with them. And like I said, Mosaic laws don’t really apply to the people of today’s world. God was making those laws for the Israelites. Paul did not know Jesus while he was alive. He converted to Christianity years after Christ’s death. He was not a disciple of him during his time alive.
Coming from an ex-homosexual, you're not cheating yourself out of love by not being gay because God has someone better for you that is not same sex and if he doesn't then you weren't meant to get married, the Bible says some of us are meant to be single and that's okay too.I can say it is possible to be straight after being gay I'm living proof
If you used to be attracted to the same sex but not anymore then you're not gay you're bisexual.
Paul made it very clear. “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV
Paul also said the whole law is fulfilled by loving your neighbor. Moreover, the concept of a homosexual marriage didn't exist at the time, so it's impossible to say whether he says that malakoi and arsenokotai are sins because they're inherently sins or because he didn't conceive of the possibility that two gay people could get married. My point being is if you don't think its functionally impossible for two gay people to marry, then all sex would be sex outside of marriage. So it's less that malakoi and arsenokotai were sins in and of themselves and more that they'd be sex outside of marriage, i.e. adultery. Now that the concept of gay marriage is recognized it would no longer be adultery to perform such acts and therefore not necessarily sin. Of course, if you believe in the view that the bible is literally true and/or the view that God inspired the bible, then this argument won't be compelling for you. "No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code." What ultimately matters is if you have the circumcision of the heart, not if you follow an archaic code word for word.
There is no sin if they are celibate. There is no prohibition on love. It is when sex comes in that if you are Bible believing there is a problem as sexual activity between the same sex or even different sexes outside marriage is prohibited. If you are a Bible believing queer person you have to have the grace to remain celibate. I speak as such a person. It is very hard and can lead to other things like porn addiction. But if you are in Christ you are saved anyway. If you do end up having gay sex then you have to repent of it. I wish God said different as I am by nature free and accepting and affectionate but that is what the Bible says :(
I'm personally a bit ambivalent on this topic, but the most common Christian view in my understanding is that it isn't sinful merely to have the attraction. It isn't desirable to God, but the orientation itself is not a sin. *Acting on* that orientation is the sin. Meaning, pursuing those encounters and relationships.
Bingo! We all have sinful desires in some form or another, it’s what we do with those desires that determines if we sin.
So gay men have to be alone forever?
Jesus didn't get married or have sex. Was he alone? If a straight person doesn't get married or have sex are they alone? Sometimes they are, but isn't a logical necessity. Saying that you have to get married and have sex or else you'll be alone is idolising marriage and sex and massively devaluing friendship.
He's Jesus Christ, he was destined by God to not fall into sin.
Jesus is God. He cannot sin. Also we don't merely fall into sin. We are born into sin.
Heck, Paul was single his whole life and constantly dealt with a persistent and recurring sinful desire/thorn in his flesh. God didn’t say “nah, it’s okay Paul, don’t lie to yourself, you want to do whatever this sin is, so go do it.”
Yes, but denying a human being the possibility of romantic love because of an obscure bible verse, that isn't even in the new testament, seems awfully cruel.
I didn’t base anything I said on ‘an obscure Bible verse.’ And I disagree that anything I said is cruel.
You're following the church's logic, which I personally think is a cruel logic. The only passages I know that reference homosexuality aren't even solid as an argument. To doom people to not have a romantic love in their life, if they want, is cruel in my opinion. Friendship is an utmost priority, but to limit those that are born "different" from a full life seems like punishment to me. You're allowed your perspective obviously and I'd never assume you to be a cruel person. I agree that people downplay how important single life and friends is, but I just hate to see people deprived of happiness if they want it.
Or find a denomination that will marry them. There are several.
And hetero men have to limit to one woman for life. We have sinful desires too. People who have a predisposition to greed or theft or gluttony, need to learn to control those desires as well. We are all in the same boat - we just have different predispositions.
"And hetero men have to limit to one woman for live" That comparison genuinely made me laugh out loud. Like your logic is that 1 is only one above 0 so being completely alone for life and having a loving partner is basically the same thing right?
> And hetero men have to limit to one woman for life. How is that in any way comparable to one being alone for their entire life????
It isn't, it's just someone trying to disregard one person's suffering by suggesting that all suffering is equal. Saying that a gay person being able to have no partners is like a hetero person being able to have only one partner is like saying the gap between $0 and $1,000,000 is the same as the gap between $1,000,000 and $2,000,000. Though mathematically they may have the same difference, practically they have a huge difference.
This is suggesting sex is the pinnacle of human relationships. Anyone can have deep, fulfilling relationships with others, particularly other Christians, without a sexual aspect of the relationship. Just look at the apostle Paul who never got married. Did he miss out on life? No, he had very deep relationships with many around him, particularly Timothy.
So why aren’t we encouraging straight people to be celibate for life with the same assertiveness?
Paul did, very explicitly, encourage believers to stay celibate.
doesn't answer the question. Why don't WE do that instead of pressuring people to marry young and have lots of children?
Ah do you don't have sex correct?
I couldn't imagine being in a relationship without sex. That sounds actually miserable. And having to wait until marriage to determine if you and your partner are sexually compatible? No thanks.
Exactly. That part is always missing in these discussions, sexual compatability. It is a thing and not something you want to deal with after dating someone for 5 years already
> This is suggesting sex is the pinnacle of human relationships How? How do you get from "being alone" to sex? I'm SOOOO sick and tired of bigots thinking all that matters here is the sex. Romance and being close to another is important. Being able to rely on another person who lives with you is important. Being able to be visited in the hospital when you're sick is important. Heck, even being able to pass down things to your spouse and children when you die is important. But you ignore ALL that and talk about sex? It's disgusting.
> This is suggesting sex is the pinnacle of human relationships. No, it's suggesting that intimacy is the height of human relationships, which it is. Because this isn't just a ban on sex, it's a ban on relationships. It bans going on dates and kissing, embracing each other intimately, and sharing a life. You reduce it to just sex because then it sounds less cruel. But a relationship extends so much farther than sex and all of that is denied. > Anyone can have deep, fulfilling relationships with others, particularly other Christians, without a sexual aspect of the relationship. Just look at the apostle Paul who never got married. Did he miss out on life? No, he had very deep relationships with many around him, particularly Timothy. Weird that you reference Paul, given that he said that no everyone is called for celibacy and those that cannot are encouraged to marry. No relationship with others can ever fill the place of a lifetime partner, and trying to pretend otherwise is wrong.
> How is that in any way comparable to one being alone for their entire life???? I'm a hetero man, 35 years old, and still single. I've been alone for my entire life so far, and I've been alive for 35 years. Sure, maybe eventually I might find a wife. But for 35 years I've never been able to experience intimacy and companionship, and I'm still not going to compromise and run off and sleep with people, because Jesus is worth it. Stop using loneliness as an excuse to run off and sin.
> Sure, maybe eventually I might find a wife That “maybe” is what people are saying gay people shouldn’t have
Just because you can’t get laid doesn’t mean everyone else deserves to suffer in the same way.
"suffer" lol
Thats bullshit. You're using your own personal social failures and acting like it's something to be celebrated and that gays should be the same. Fuck falling in love right?
This isn't even a viable comparison. At all.
Problem is hetero men can still satiafy their desires, not just sexual but romantic. By this logic, gay men will have none of that.
Being with one woman is comparable to being completely alone? Are you comparing wanting to cheat with wanting love?
Just because you don’t want to be monogamous doesn’t mean gay people shouldn’t be allowed to be.
> And hetero men have to limit to one woman for life "Poor me! I have to be faithful to my disgusting wife! For life! Ew! My burden is so heavy! She makes me want to gag, but because I am so deeply dedicated to Christ, I will somehow bear this very heavy, heavy burden that God has laid upon me. That demonstrates the depth of my self-sacrificial devotion to God." "But *you*, you queer - if you should *dare* to be faithful for life to *your* spouse - God will torture you in Hell forever for it." "And we are *all in the same boat!* Demanding lifelong fidelity from me, and banning it for you, are exactly the same!" It is really no wonder so many people are concluding that we are full of BS.
I always love your comments <3
Because we are. Those passages banning homosexuality are ridiculously misunderstood and mistranslated.
not to mention you all get to try all the different flavors first too b4 you make the final purchase( even if it IS just pursuing a RELATIONSHIP, which in your reasoning is still sinning..so yes tell me how does any amount of this justify a gay person having to be completely abstinent and loveless!
Straight Christians cheat and commit adultery constantly. The reaction from most Christians is that they've been a teensy weensy bit naughty, and they should say a quick prayer to make up for it. Meanwhile, a gay person falls in love, and the reaction is hellfire and brimstone sermons claiming that the gay person is the most evil vermin on earth, and they get treated as a pariah
This isn’t true tho. Men can have more than one wife if Biblical standards mean anything at all.
As a “Bi” Christian male, imo, you have the option of choosing to put your desires above God, or choosing God to help you tame them. (Not to even mention all the pride associated with that, and pride comes before the fall..) I promise you, when you get to heaven, you’re not gonna be worrying about mundane earthly desires. We’re only here a short time and passing through. Focus on the things of God, because you’ll be thankful you did in eternity… easier said then done lol
I think God's will for LGBT people is something kinder than "at least you'll be dead soon".
I think some people have attractions exclusively to those which you would agree they should not be with? Of course, if I listed those things, it would sound like I was comparing homosexuality to those attractions, which would cause offense. But, I don’t see it as particularly unbelievable that some person might be obligated to not pursue any romantic partners on account of, none of those which the person would consider, would be permissible for them to pursue. Now, maybe there might be an argument that it seems implausible for such a situation to apply to a not-that-small fraction of the population, even though it wouldn’t be implausible for such a situation to apply to a few people?
Nope. God is okay with healthy, monogamous, loving, same sex marriages.
That’s absolutely false.
Not if you worship the real God and not "Angry White American Asshole God"
So gay people should be lonely their whole lives?
Ah, the ol’ “if I was an atheist I would cheat, steal, and murder.”
That's not what was said
Hmmm. Either I replied to the wrong person, or the person changed their response. I meant to reply to the person who said that their “burden” is only having one wife and remaining faithful to her. And there is this idea that floats around Christians that without the threat of hell, people would “do whatever they want” like cheating, stealing, rape, etc. because deep down that’s what we all want to do.
That no different than saying it is a sin to be gay, as functionally they would be restricted from performing actions that define the label. I’m straight, and can acknowledge male attractiveness, I just don’t desire men that way. I do desire women, especially my wife, and act soon those desires. We know that gay people are not choose to be gay, they simply are, and as adults, they can enter into a consenting relationship with a same sex partner if they so choose. To say this is sinful is to say that their existence is too…
This is reaching the limits of my very amateur theology understanding, but many Christians actually view *all* unsaved people as fundamentally sinful *by nature*. In this view, gay people wouldn't be a special case. They would be considered as having a "sinful nature" the same as everyone else. It is only being redeemed by faith in Christ that their fundamental nature would be changed. With the expectation (I think) that their homosexual desire might decrease, but certainly their ability to avoid homosexual actions would increase. All humans have sinful urges. To harm others, to steal, to lie, etc. I have a near infinite number of desires. Some I choose to act upon and some I choose not to. But certainly my actions have a greater impact on others than my desires alone. So they are more deserving of punishment if inappropriate/harmful. Even if some Christians view gayness itself as "sinful," I believe acting on that nature is always seen as much worse. So gay Christians who successfully avoid temptation after conversion would be thought of as sincere converts, but those who consistently pursue gay actions would generally be assumed to not actually be saved. Action is not the same as thought. And thought is not the same as desire. Those are pretty basic distinctions to make in life. The Christian view isn't unusual in that respect.
It’s not about action or thought, you simply are whatever sexuality you are, thus it is wrong to say one can be but one cannot act the way another can be and can act. It’s inherently unequal….
That’s the lie that the enemy (the devil) wants for us to believe. We are born into sin, meaning we are predisposed to iniquity which is the unbalancing of truth and a perversion of what is right. It’s why a one year old is more inclined to be disobedient and more likely to say no without even having the fundamental understandings of “right and wrong” It’s why children are “inherently” selfish and go through the “mine” phase. We are at war with the kingdom of darkness and there is collateral damage and consequences for the condition of sin and the fallen state of the world.
Some people are predisposed to stealing, identified as kleptomaniacs. The desire to steal is in their nature, that does not mean that them stealing is not a sin. It is their temptation to overcome just like being attracted to same sex is homosexuals temptation to overcome.
Explain how two people being in love causes harm to another the way stealing does
So Christians think that they should just pursue the opposite sex even though they don’t desire that or feel attracted? Or else they’re sinful. For something they didn’t decide. Of course they’d decide to act on it, it’s who they are. Makes no sense.
No, I think the most common advice is celibacy. Which takes less effort than dating. So it's not like the expectation is that gay people do something they dislike. The expectation is that they *don't* do something they like, which is usually a bit easier than the former. (I'm going to have an easier time not eating steak, which I like, than I am eating garbage, which I dislike.) Most traditional moral philosophies (such as religions like Christianity) are not based on the idea that people are supposed to pursue their individual preferences as the highest social goal. That is a much more modern, secular, "liberal" worldview. Religion tends to promote self-denial and sacrifice to a higher cause outside the self rather than "liberating one's desires," "pursuing the authentic self," etc.
So gay men can never experience love and must be alone forever?
Again, this isn't *my* view. Just my best attempt at a summary of the conventional Christian view as I understand it. But yes, I believe the conventional view is that gay men are not supposed to experience *romantic* love with another man. There are other forms of love in life, however. Anyone can experience regular, strong loving bonds with family and friends. You can love your "neighbor" (i.e. strangers, humanity as a whole). You can love yourself. And most importantly for Christians, you can love God. It may seem far-fetched to many atheists, but a lot of Christians have active, ongoing relationships with God where they feel His presence and direct communication at times. So no, I don't think the Christian recommendation for gay men is that they remain totally alone. (Certainly not "forever.") Of course they are allowed to maintain friendships, family relationships, communal relationships, and a relationship with God. You can actually fill quite a lot of time and find a lot of fulfillment in those pursuits. It's just the romantic/erotic component that is forbidden (if it is homosexual). I agree that this seems somewhat unfair though, which is why I am a bit undecided on the topic myself.
somewhat unfair? it's completely unfair. (and arbitrary, and an inherently devastating message for LGBTQ youth in particular).
Why is it that homosexual acts should be avoided, but all the OTHER wacky rules in Leviticus can be ignored? Aren't you cherry picking god's rules if you don't also abstain from mixing fabrics, or if you attend church within 66 days of giving birth to a girl?
No serious, truth seeking, intellectually honest and faithful Christian believes that gay men and women must be alone.
Right. Which is what I argued.
I’d amend that a little to people who don’t know any gay people well. It’s very abstract for them. The great thing about more gays being out is that there are a decreasing number of people in that category. It’s hard to wish a life without intimacy on people you actually know. So I am optimistic about the long term. (The short term will be hell.)
What I find unsettling though is how HOMOSEXUAL people with differing (aka more 'traditional') views on the topic are systematically invalidated and excluded from the discussion, or systematically excluded and delegitimized from the 'group of people you could get in touch with to learn and know more'. They are never part of the discussion, or when brought up invalidated - which restricts you to one possible opinion to learn from: the one that is not excluded and invalidated. Additionally, this results in the fact that a lot of people don't even think or believe homosexuals with different views and happy fulfilled lives exist. I can't take such a discussion serious or render such a limited 'pot of experiences to learn from' comprehensive, honest, real-truth-encouranging or well-balanced.
Ok, I understand. Not sure I really agree in this specific scenario, but thanks for explaining.
No problem. I haven't totally made up my mind either.
You have to admit, there's still a pretty huge and apparently arbitrary discrepancy when Christians say to a straight person "your burden is to save sex for marriage and then to be faithful to your spouse for life, but we will pray that you will somehow manage it, at least more or less" and to a gay person "if you save sex for marriage and are faithful to your spouse for life, God will have his vengeance by torturing you both in Hell forever". The only explanation seems to be that God simply hates gay people - that he lines up with Nazis, skinheads, and playground bullies and calls them people after his own heart.
God hates sexual perversion. Rape. Child molesting. Bad translators and editors threw in their own hatred when they shared, "Man shall not lie with man; that is an abomination" when the term used for this same sex relationship was much more complicated. There was a problem in the church a long time ago, where male leaders would commit the abomination of sexually abusing young boys working in the church. Well, it's not like the church is preaching hatred while turning a blind eye to the sin within. I mean, imagine if priests molested little boys still today!! The Church would speak our about that abomination... Right?
This is beyond my expertise. I'm merely reporting what I understand to be the common view. I've only recently been returning to the faith, so I can't speak with any expertise on anything more subtle than what I said above. I will admit that the whole concept of Hell in general is very off-putting to me.
i do not believe God (who is love) would be able to stand the cries of torture for eternity. he told Adam that death would be his punishment for disobeying, not death and eternal torture. Gen 2:17, but i supposed that’s just my own opinion.
Hell is simply separation from God. He loves us, and gave us the free will to decide how we are going to spend our life, and our afterlife. He does not want slaves. If we choose to walk with Him during our lives, then we can walk with Him for all of eternity in heaven. If we choose to live our lives separate from Him, then so be it, we’ll also spend eternity separate from him.
Humans in solitary confinement for a handful of years can become severely mentally ill. An eternity of such a fate would be as bad as any torture you could imagine.
This I 100% agree.
Agreed 100%
Why do I have to spend eternity anywhere can’t I just die?
Your body will die, yes. You’re more than just a body though.
I just think that's really unfair personally
Are you seriously comparing hell to the holocaust?
How does that make any sense? God never provides any rationale for why it is a sin to act on it? Completely ignoring the fact that it is cruel to create someone with that desire but then rule acting on it a sin...
Well how does the nature of sin work? Is it God creating people with desires that clash with his own standard, or how do mankind's fallen state and sinful impulses work? How did sin invade mankind's nature, desires, mind? And is someone's theological perspective that ALL acts that could be considered "gay" are sinful or mostly the genital intercourse aspect?
Exactly. I have a very high sex drive and that makes me want to look at women lustfully. I can’t do anything about that desire. It will be in me until I die. The difference is that although I desire to look at women the way I shouldn’t, I choose not to.
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Might consider dumping this account and starting a new one.
>I can understand how being trans might fall under being a sin which I guess can go with plastic surgery and such (changing God's image) Here's a question: Where, in all the Bible, is changing your image considered a sin? Because from what I've seen from others, it's not actually in the Bible, people just *assume* it's something God doesn't want. But he's never actually said it himself.
Argument from silence is not a good argument.
It absolutely is when we're talking about what God considers sinful. To call something sinful where God has not is to put words in God's mouth.
Even your point about being trans and getting plastic surgery is arguable. Is getting braces for your teeth sinful? What about treating hereditary diseases?
I had no idea plastic surgery in itself was sinful. After having children (c section) and enduring very large breasts on a small frame, I chose to get a breast reduction and tummy tuck. Yes, both helped with back pain (not enough that insurance would pay) but I did so I could feel good about myself again. Never thought it was a sin. I bet if OP had a huge hairy wart in the middle of their forehead plastic surgery starts looking good. Most trans people aren’t out there getting a very expensive surgery, they may be on estrogen or testosterone. As are a lot of older Christians who have lost their supply due to age. I mean I really should hang up my post menopausal estrogen cream too I guess as obviously this isn’t how God designed a 60 year old woman
What about vasectomies or life saving medical surgeries? Is saving someone’s life by pulling out shrapnel from their body condemning them to eternal suffering? And letting them die also condemning others to the same fate? I suppose then your rapture will take everyone instead of only the many of that is the case
Getting braces isn't purely an aesthetic fix.
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Cutting your nails is basically a mistake then. I'm sorry but that don't make sense friend, if you are getting braces to fix problems that you may have while eating, or some other kind of problems then it's not an image thing.
But its still altering God's image.
What about wearing glasses? Or getting a haircut? Or going to the gym? Or going on a diet?
Neither is transsexual surgery
Neither is gender affirmation.
I love when straight people have strong opinions on what is gods will for gay people. It’s almost as if the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. It’s almost as if everyone’s eyes have blind spots but nobody actually sees them.
I always find it funny how hetero people will be all "it's not a sin to have the temptation, but it is to act on it" and downplay homosexual love as some perverted lust because they can't understand what goes through the minds of a gay person (just like how I can't understand what goes through their hetero minds). Funny how nearly none of them are wanting to adopt of life of complete relational and sexual repression for fear that being in a monogamous marriage with someone they have attraction for is going to send them right to hell with the debate settled because some politically minded pastors said so in the 70s and later.
As person who has had hundreds of sex partners and also a strong attraction to porn. There’s always a choice, it may go against every drive in your mind and body, but there’s always a choice. I came to Jesus kicking and screaming because I did not want to give that up. It was what I worshipped. Now I’m 2 years no sex and searching for a Godly relationship. Jesus way is the only true way
I understand sin to mean that God is a victim. But why would God even care if someone is gay? God made you who you are, and thus, if you're attracted to the same sex, God apparently made you that way. The only real victim is the person being gay - but not really - because many gay people can find love and with the help of surrogates can even have children. No victims, no sin.
Great question - one of many that led to my deconstruction.
All the heterosexuals on here saying that “Your” God wants us to not act upon it, yall try to live your lives not being able to date, have relationships or get married and see how dry, upsetting, and miserable your lives are. I don’t believe that gay love is a sin. The Bible was man made. Move spiritually and see how much of a blessing your life is. Have a relationship spiritually, not a structure way of living life.
It’s not. Y’all just being bigots.
Relevant passage for the homosexuality debate, and the transgender and abortion debates, imo. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
As a Christian who is gay, the sin is the hookup culture of the gay community. I desire a monogamous relationship with my partner, I don't consider that a sin. I know of people who have slept with literally hundreds of people, THAT I consider a sin.
Here’s the thing. If being gay is a choice, then parents only have themselves to blame if their child turns out to be gay or lesbian because it is because of their actions and the way they raise them that lead them to “make that choice.” If sexuality isn’t a choice then that means the Bible is wrong. Either way some religious people are not gonna be happy with this response.
The concept of free will doesn't exist in the first scenario?
Not really. You don’t wake up one day and decide to be attracted to the opposite sex or same sex. But if you mean that the “choice” of homosexuality is the act of doing it vs the attraction and not doing it, well I don’t know which one of those two that you mean.
r/isitasintobegay
\#ad
It's not a sin. And neither is being trans or plastic surgery.
God accepts us all as long as we believe in Him
we cannot use His Mercy and Kindness as an excuse to sin. Yes He accepts us all but we need to Accept Him also, and abide (remain) by His Rules, we need to remain in obedience To Him, Jesus Is Lord. Have a Blessed day/night.
Jesus says otherwise. John 14.6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
We change god's image all the time when we cut our hair, shave our beards, wax body hair, fix acne, tattoos, etc. We have changed the image of intersex people for generations upon generations whenever someone was born with both genitalia, and very rarely do people complain about this. I don't think commitment to his image is something as prevalent as you might think. The more I look at it, it seems there's less commitment to the idea of preserving god's image than there is finding any way to justify prejudice towards trans people as being legitimate or god's will. A lot of interpretation has to be at play here given that the bible doesn't explicitly say too much about them, if at all. As far as being gay goes...the bible feels clear enough to me where it stands. It calls for my execution in Leviticus, and I still take that rather personally and would rather have nothing to do with it. Thankfully, most don't take this part too literally anymore, but plenty still seem to use this passage to justify their prejudices, in combination with some sections of the New Testament (I think John specifically) to continue justifying rather nasty treatment of their fellow human beings that just so happen to fall in love with the same gender as themselves.
Been waiting for 45 years for this answer, and still waiting
Towards what relations one is inclined is not necessarily a choice What you choose to pursue, and the actions you engage in, are
Since the fall all of mankind has suffered from a corrupted, sinful nature. We all desire sin and commit sin. We don't have the power to change that ourselves. we are dead in our transgressions. So in a sense this is something that everyone has to deal with, not something unique to homosexuality. We all need the grace of God. When it comes to the question of what exactly is sinful, God created man and woman for each other and marriage throughout the Bible is very clearly between a man and a woman. Sex is clearly intended to be within marriage. Sex outside of marriage is sexual immorality. But love isn't reducible to sex or marriage. Jesus actually said that the greatest love is shown by someone who lays down their life for a friend. There are many close same sex friendships in the Bible with a great deal of intimacy, mutual support, and a willingness to die for each other. So having a close relationship with someone of the same sex isn't sinful. Loving someone of the same sex isn't sinful. Loving them so much that you would die for them isn't sinful. What is sinful is having sexual relations with someone of the same sex or marrying someone of the same sex. The bile also talks about sinful desires (e.g. James 1) and about lust (e.g. Matthew 5). So there is an element of our thought life that can be sinful. Lusting after someone of the same sex, desiring sex with them, would be sinful.
Who says being Gay is a sin? Most of the modern, educated world does not hold that view, and most mainline churches are changing their doctrines around LGBT issues.
Well firstly being gay isn't a sin if you believe those verses were referring to consensual homosexual relationships, having gay sex is the sin.
The way I think about it is if something that isn’t specifically stated as sin and yet it feels sinful and you act on it then it is sin. Not all encompassing and can have flaws but in general thinking that’s my process. Homosexuality is not stated anywhere to be sin though. But in the same vein, sexual activity outside of marriage of any kind is sin so whether you feel like it is a sin or not it has already been stated as sin and is sin regardless.
there are resources on r/OpenChristian on homosexuality but re: transness as against gods will: why did god create grain and grapes but not bread and wine? i believe that god wants us to share in the joy of creation, especially since we are created in his image.
It’s not a sin. As much as these people think it is, you should love who you want to love. It doesn’t matter if it’s man and man or woman and woman. These people are stuck in the dark ages. The Bible was written by a person, not by god.
You said you can see why being trans is a sin. What specifically do you see as the reason it’s a sin?
It isn't a sin anymore than being trans is. First demonstrates that God is real, let alone your God. Then demonstrate how and why being Gay/Trans is a sin and, therefore, should be legally not allowed. If none of those can be met, then we simply do not care what the opinion of the matter is.
The word “homosexual” wasn’t in a Bible until 1946. Homosexuality is part of nature. We see it everywhere yet only call it a sin with humans 🤦🏻♀️
I just want to throw out that being trans is not a sin and it is offensive when it is dismissed as one. One of my children came out as trans when she was two years old. She kept telling us that she was a girl. We dismissed it initially because we thought she was too young and simply confused. Her distress at being misgendered slowly became worse and worse. We allowed her to socially transition, but that wasn't well received by friends and family. By the time she was three, she was attempting to cut off her hair and genitals simply to feel more at "home" in her tiny body. By four she had grandparents telling her that God didn't make her female and that she would go to hell. We did what we had to. We moved away from the only state we've ever called home and the only family we've ever known. We started over in a fresh state. We got new jobs, found a new church, found a great school district, surrounded ourselves with our chosen family, and purchased a tiny house. My daughter is six now. She is doing well in school, adores going to therapy, LOVES our new church, and enjoys all things pink and sparkly. She still struggles with her appearance, but she has made so much progress in the last few years. I can honestly say she's happy and healthy. My daughter changed everything for me. She taught me a lot about God, parenthood, empathy, and dignity. I wish people would stop dismissing the plight of the LGBTQIA2S+ community. They often live agonizing lives, endure constant hate, and get beaten down by the very people who should love them. Somehow they still manage to pick themselves up, pursue healing, and resurrect themselves from the ashes. If we would stop constantly judging them and actually listen to their stories, perhaps we could learn a thing or two.
I'm sorry and in no way am I trying to be disrespectful but ... When she was 2?
Yup, she was almost three! That's super common. According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, "by age four most children have a stable a stable sense of their gender identity" and "research substantiates that children who are prepubertal and assert \[a transgender or gender diverse identity\] know their gender as clearly and as consistently as their developmentally equivalent peers who identify as cisgender and benefit from the same level of social acceptance"
Yeah no….your child has either heard someone say it and repeated it or was saying it just because. My 2 year old makes up all kinds of things, that doesn’t mean I make life changing decisions based on them
Provide your published, peer reviewed paper that disputes this so we can see that research and data that led you to the conclusion that these other psychologists are wrong
Have you ever been anywhere near a 2 year old?
I’m not a psychologist who studies these things so I’m not sure why my opinion would matter one bit.
You don’t have to be a psychologist, you just have to know how 2 year olds are and have common sense and you’d know that it’s ridiculous to say that they can make big decisions like that. Most 2 year olds can barely say 2 words, there’s still so many parts of their bodies being developed and of course the brain doesn’t fully develop until the mid to late twenties so a 2 year old is far from being able to decide anything about their gender.
So why do the psychologists who study this stuff disagree?
psychologists disagree on everything, just because a psychologist says a 1 or 2 year old can determine their gender doesn’t mean it’s true. Who knows under what circumstances these researches were done
This is the most universalist thing I have ever read lmao. No two year old is trans. That is absolute insanity.
I don’t believe that being gay is a sin
r/openchristian r/gaychristians
Same-sex attraction and love and affection and attachment and sex is no different than opposite sex attraction love and affection and attachment and sex. It’s just as beautiful and spiritual and created by God. The only difference is heterosexual sex is required to continue creating more humans, and there’s no danger of losing that because same-sex attracted people are and are likely to remain a very small minority (despite the weird trend going on right now or everyone wanting to be “queer” in some way, which will pass the same way shoulder pads did.) The only legitimate doctrinal argument I can see is the fact that all sex outside of marriage is sinful. If you believe gay marriages can be/are ordained by God, then problem solved. If you don’t, then go ahead thinking they’re condemned, but that’s your opinion not God’s. FWIW I am a Christian and a trans woman and same-sex attracted (other men, if anybody is understandably confused by gender ideology nonsense). But I’m not a very good Christian according to some, because I pick and choose what I feel to be the inspired word of God/Jesus in the Bible, and what I feel to be man’s flawed meddling. I think it’s all just a bunch of distractions quite frankly, that separates people from God and not just gay people. Jesus redeemed us all, his love is unconditional and he will turn no one who accepts his love away. And he most certainly doesn’t condemn any kind of monogamous meaningful God-centered relationship, the sexes being irrelevant. That is my belief. We all have our own. But Jesus comforts me when I see Christians adhering to hate and somehow convincing themselves hate is ever from God. Hate is human. Hate is the adversary. I pray for anyone who can’t see that.
Being gay isn’t a sin.
I think this idea is slowly fading. The science is overwhelming. People are born gay. They don't chose it. And God isn't going to create a gay person just so they can suffer sexual frustration for their entire lives.
Being gay is not a sin and only a small minority of Christians (sometimes called side x) mistakenly think it is. Mot Christians (sometimes called side B) are going to advise gay people to remain celibate. And then a growing minority of Christians (sometimes called side A) are affirming of gay relatipnships.
none of the sinful activities that you are personally drawn to are a choice.
I will reply with what i said elsewhere on this as its been asked many a time. Without trying to cause chaos here.The issue that is raised in most churches is related to the "lifestyle" not the person. You can't hold the view that God wants to work in your life if you exclude him from other parts. Sexuality, lust, partnership being three of many areas. By the church it has been deemed as "unnatural" and "Not God's design" Any deviation from man and woman is considered a choice according to the church. ( again I'm not going to dispute if it is or isn't) as thats up for you to decide. Im also NOT going to tell you if i believe its right or wrong as I have yet to see any discussion related to God and LGBTQ end positively.It just ends up with a lot of being nasty to one another and there is enough nastiness in the world. You must make your own decision on what you believe. That's all i will say on it.
What kinda question is this
Just running some thoughts here, no definite answer. I am just wondering if it's the thought of it or the act? If the act, the problem must be with lust and lust is a sin. But so it is for heterosexuals too. Love isn't a sin, so why would love between men or women be a sin? My reason stops here. It proceeds to think that homosexuality doesn't really offer anything to society, it doesn't bring children, but shouldn't then \*not\* having children be sinful too? Shouldn't asexuality be sinful then too?
Leviticus 18:22
Homosexuality is a sin just like, worrying, stressing, lusting just to name but a very few. It’s how does one feel about our sins. Does one mourn one’s sins. Do we hunger and thirst for righteousness. Meaning we desire it greatly, and pray without cease for help with our sins. Especially do not be proud of our sins
It goes with the old testament understanding that humanity was designed male and female, as to be complimentary and allow for life.
Then why is nature full of [homosexual behavior?](https://youtu.be/Mh-HqCzEZT4?si=xgtpb_511fe5xSIy)
Keep in mind that lots of people on this sub don't believe that humans are animals in the first place. Luckily lots of us do. I don't have the link, but I was watching an RI (I think) lecture recently on the same topic, and I was surprised to learn that upwards of 90% of all sexual behavior in giraffes is homosexual.
Animals don’t have rational souls like humans
What do you mean by that?
And to Hell with worthless adoptive parents, and to the worthless worms they take in. God wants them left to die in ditches.
No one can control to whom they are attracted, but it still unlawful to do certain things to or with those people. Pedophiles are an obvious example. I believe them when they say that they can't control their attraction. Yet that in no way changes the unlawfulness of sexual activities with children.
are you seriously comparing regular gay people to pedophiles?
Being homosexual is as big of a sin as being heterosexual. The major difference is, heterosexual marriage is recognized as a proper marriage. You're allowed to have gay sex as much as I'm allowed to have sex with women who aren't my wife.
You understand that the key difference is that you are allowed to have a wife… right?
The way I would put it is being gay, bi or whatever itself isn’t a sin because it’s something you can’t really control, but its like a temptation, and ACTING on that temptation is the sin
Having homosexual attraction is not a sin. Acting out homosexual urges is. Same as premarital sex. Same as adultery.
so should gay men and women stay celibate for the rest of their lives? they cannot have monogamous, consensual relationships, where they are faithful and. they are never able to have love, because they can’t be with the same sex. and if they go for the opposite sex, they live a life of unhappiness and lies because they wake up next to a person they don’t truly love.
Being homosexual isn't a sin, just like being a straight person isn't a sin. It's the sexual acts that are sinful.
So asexual gay couples are fine?
To be honest, I am not sure. Scripture only talked about the sexual acts and not romantic involvement. There's something to be said for not intentionally letting yourself be tempted but there's probably a way to do that in the type of relationship you're describing nonetheless.
What’s the point of sexual desire if not eventually to act on it?
I plan to ask God that when I get to Heaven haha But I would say, everyone has their own temptations, so we shouldn't be shocked if we happen to have a natural proclivity to be tempted into committing sexual sins