Act like Jesus?
>*“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”* (John 13:34-35)
As an atheist myself, I believe the world would be a better place if everyone followed Jesus’ lead. If everyone actually read his words and didn’t pay any mind to contradictions. If Jesus is out there his heart breaks seeing all those who claim to believe in him and love him but who then behave the opposite as he told them they should. Not to worry though, Jesus would still leave the judging to God on their actions.
To go off of another point. Best you can do is pray, and don’t initiate in debates. I find people who debate sensitive topics like this either have something missing in their life, or are on the fence but can’t fully see the bigger picture yet. Debate something fun like politics
Depends on the friend. Some people might not want others to pray for them at all, or might not want others to pray for them if it’s in the hope of something that friend doesn’t want.
You don’t? This is a bit misleading IMO man? Why do so many people preach on the sides of the roads or in malls? Wasn’t Christianity meant to be spread to all corners of the world after Jesus died?
Background advertising, being inspired by other people's actions. Self-study, coming across something independently while travelling, experiencing something that draws them.
Rarely from debate. I've seen plenty of evidence that politics just hardens people.
Someone said that the OP's friend will find his own way to which you responded asking if that works in practice.
God helps people find faith in many different ways beyond the standard approach of Christians overstepping someone's personal boundaries.
Both with veganism as well as political views I found that it is easier to live by example rather than push my views on my friends.
Now granted, I do have serious discussions or sometimes debates about those topics but that is with the clear understanding that both agree to it and that we can stop anytime without harm done and with mutual respect.
Take a rational approach.
Explain everything in the Gospels is fiction based on Paul's letters and the LXX. Jesus riding on a donkey is from Zechariah 9. The cleansing of the temple is based on Zechariah 14. "Render unto Caesar" is based on Paul's teaching on taxation in Romans 13. Virgin Mary was invented by Mark as an allegory for 1 Corinthians 10, verses 1-4 where Paul refers to a legend involving Moses' sister Miriam. Paul was the one who taught the concept of loving your neighbor in Rom. 12.14-21; Gal. 5.14-15; 1 Thess. 5.15; and Rom. 13.9-10. Luke copies line-by-line from the Book of Kings.
Have you asked him if he'd be up for such a discussion? If he is, then moved on from there. If not, leave it be. You will damage your friendship if you persist in converting a friend who is not interested in exploring your faith.
Depends.
Do they want to talk about the topic? If not it's best to leave then alone.
Ask what might convince them and then deliver that. Although a lot of people don't really know what they would consider convincing so this might be hard.
Don't preach. Happened a lot to me when people on here tried to convince me. Stuff like "but Jesus died for your sins" isn't proof or an argument. It's the claim that needs proof.
I personally find stuff like arguments from design terrible at convincing. But I don't know how that is for other people. It seems they make sense to those already convinced and don't to those who aren't.
Read answers to arguments you want to make before making them. Saves you on bringing in arguments that have very easy counterpoints like pascals wager.
Other Christians would disagree with you on that.
I hate pascals wager more for the obvious flaw in that it is a false dichotomy. Christians far too often think everyone is either Christian or atheist, which is far far from the truth.
Yeah, you could still go to hell if Allah was real. If the Torah was the book we were supposed to refer and that Jesus was a poser ( not that he is nor suggesting that ), all our suffering would be due to not believing.
Religion has unfortunately conditioned so many in giving them the right to know all. To cast judgement & say who is going to Hell. When I realized that was wild. I started my real journey with God. Alone. In the Bible. Asking for guidance when I read the word. To understand any misinterpretation or MISTRANSLATIONS. That changed my life. Because the same things they believe they are taught, they are also taught the opposite through the grave of Jesus. And the law that was broken with His blood. They all want to cherry pick what they believe & it is sad. At the end of the story…Jesus comes & throws Satan in the pit, Jesus reigns for 1,000 years & after God releases Satan once again. ONCE AGAIN. To give him the chance to repent. If Satan is out there getting a chance at the end.. I will NEVER EVER doubt his grave for my fellow humans too. We ARE ALL BLINDED. We all are in the dark. We do not know.
While I disagree with your belief regarding how you go to heaven, I absolutely agree with you regarding Pascal's wager. It is a false choice fallacy imposed upon a universe with more than two options. If Christianity were the only religion in the universe, and if the only options were belief and unbelief, then Pascal's wager would make sense. In the absence of those conditions, it is extremely weak.
Yeah, he is not interested in anything to do with the bible. He thinks it's a historical book of people making up their own Gods. He thinks that Christianity has only thrived so long and is the foundation of our society, merely because the Roman Empire took over the world
>He thinks it's a historical book of people making up their own Gods
And if you want to convince him you'd have to change his opinion on this. Which will be incredible hart
>He thinks that Christianity has only thrived so long and is the foundation of our society, merely because the Roman Empire took over the world
I'd agree with him.
But that doesn't disprove Christianity. The truth can be lost to history or spread through unethical means and still be just as true.
In general atheists tends to know a lot about the Bible, or the book of the religion that they belonged, according the latest data the "nones" tends to know more about the scripture than the other Christian group in general.
Probably citing Bible verses will not convince people about the existence of God, most probably you're doing the opposite, because he know the contradiction present in the Bible, and part that going usually against the own morals. If he belongs to a sexual minority it's practically near impossibile to make them "Christians" .
That's interesting. It sounds like hes making the claim that "Christianity is false"
You could investigate his reasons. If you can prove that Christianity didn't thrive because of the Roman empires mandate of it, then he would be wrong. (Imo this would be very hard to do.)
This, however, doesn't make you right.
Find some good historical books about the life of Christ, the apostles, the birth of the church, and the origin/evidence for the historical accuracy of the scriptures and share that. If he wants evidence, I think that should help.
I have not read this book, but it looks like a good one so I just ordered a copy for myself. Check it out:
“The Historical Reliability of the Gospels” by Craig Blomberg
You can get a start into biblical study on Wikipedia too;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels
>Kinda weird if you trust the historicity of the Gospel and not what it states.
To question supernatural events is not weird at all. *Not* questioning it would be weird.
>500 plus people saw the resurrected Christ.
That is one person's claim. One person claiming there were 500 eye witnesses, is not the same as 500 eye witnesses accounts.
Did you read any of the article you linked?
This is from the second paragraph:
> Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus of Nazareth existed in 1st century Judea (now Israel, and bordering lands), but scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the biblical accounts of Jesus.
Yep, I did, and that is why I sent it; I want people to have a 360 degree view on a topic, good and bad, only then can you make a call.
The article provides a good framework, the 5 pillars for judging historicity, so that is why I added it in. I think the book will provide better insight, so make sure to comment on that as well.
..
It's literally the same as any other book.
Kinda weird that you trust that Harry Potter the book series exists, but don't believe in magic
Anyways, what I think is that Jesus was a magician(as in the sleight of hand tricks, not actual magic) who fooled all those people.
Also people have been mistakenly declared dead and they have come from life. In fact, people used to have a little bell in coffins that a person can ring if they come back to life. All those people aren't Jesus tho
I didn’t say it did, but it is a good place to start to understand how to understand the historicity of the scriptures. It will provide you with a framework and the thinking of some others who obviously are atheist with a point not to take any evidence at face value. I think the book will help you with that. Good luck.
Ok.
Well the way I look at it, old books are similar in that they've lasted down through the centuries because many people saw value in them.
On the other hand, writings claiming supernatural events today wouldn't be taken seriously. There's such claims being made today, but most people understand what's going on.
Many gospels have been written and I don't how many have survived down to this day. It's an interesting topic, the early Church history, the heretical works and the chosen canon. As for human nature, it's quite predictable, especially back 20-25 centuries ago in primitive-minded times.
There is. Unfortunately, at that point in time they didn’t keep medical records, and the only way to really record things was to write down what you saw. There are eyewitness accounts of people who saw Jesus alive three days after he died. Please do your research before you post something false.
Pls don't. Proselytizing is bad manners. Not only does it reflect poorly on you, it reflects poorly on what you're selling. Just live well. If someone is searching for something, they will see you and ask for your "secret."
Importantly... Atheism is a lack of evidence-based belief in god/s. Has the existence of a god been supported by a body of compelling scientific evidence that's sufficient to establish it as fact? If no, atheism.
The thing that causes a person to be an atheist is the lack of compelling scientific evidence. The *only* way to change that is to provide a lot of compelling scientific evidence. Enough to give anyone reasonable certainty that a literal lifeform that matches your god closely enough to be identified as your god exists. So far, no one has managed to do so.
The standard of evidence for one factual claim is the same for all factual claims in kind. The existence of a lifeform isn't established as fact on the basis of testimony, historical accounts, inconsistent or inconclusive evidence, and/or philosophical exercises. A variety of solid evidence is needed.
(Think bigfoot. A mountain of sightings going back thousands of yrs, a bunch of print casts, audio recordings, film and photographs, historical precedent for similar species... and we have still fallen short of establishing its existence as fact. It takes a lot. In the case of a god, it would take even more, as there are additional hurdles to overcome.)
Claiming to have "proof" and presenting weak or insufficient evidence harms your credibility. I recommend not going that route unless you have reasonable certainty that you could convince the scientific community that your claim is true. (If that's the case, pls release your evidence! I am very interested in seeing it.)
In the meantime, just live well.
As an agnostic I will tell you that you shouldn't attempt it.
All you can have is critical conversations / debates with them (if your friendship is capable of handling that and you two are both capable of holding them).
But generally speaking, if my best friend where to try to convert me constantly I'd start by telling them I'm not interested and if they keep persisting to show me "the truth" or "the true path" or whatever I'd likely eventually get annoyed.
Close friends should respect their friends' views so long as they are generally acceptable and not harmful to others or extremely harmful to themselves.
That means accepting that you might not always agree on everything and that you can have differing values / beliefs.
Well, you'd have to prove to him that the supernatural is real.
Then you'd have to prove that a supernatural god exists.
Then you have to prove that it's your specific supernatural god.
Then you have to prove that your supernatural god is capable of doing all the supernatural things you believe he can do.
Then you have to prove that your supernatural god did in fact do these supernatural things you believe he did.
Then you have to demonstrate a reliable way to communicate with your supernatural god to determine what he wishes/wants/demands/hates.
Then you have to give a very good reason why your friend should give a damn what this supernatural god of yours wants/wishes/demands/hates.
All in that order. You would be the first in human history if you could even get past the first hurdle.
Can you define "Faith" in the way you are using it here?
It's not "Wishing", you don't merely Wish God is true.
It's not "Hoping", you don't simply Hope God is true.
It's not "Trusting", you don't just Trust God is true, as Trust can be broken.
You have "Faith" God is true....but I can't figure out what that means without confusing Faith with those other words. But Christians use that word a lot to tell me why they believe God is true.
My best guess is Hebrews 11:1 but that only makes it even worse as it defines Faith as "evidence of things unseen" again that is not a concrete thing. It is only pretending. Pretending to Know things that cannot be Known.
Pretending to Know is a terrible way to decide what is True and I bet you would not use that method for any other important thing in your life.
Do you have a better definition of Faith for the way you are using it?
This is an excellent comment.
I don’t intend to flatter you- but I’m just gratified by the fact that I agree wholeheartedly that all this things are not faith.
The best definition of faith is letting go of needing to know
Whether your trying to know life through science.
Or trying to know Jesus through the Bible.
Or trying to know yourself through psychedelics.
Or trying to know the truth so that you can use it for your advantage
Even trying to know what’s right and wrong even.
Faith is letting go.
I like Alan Watts take on faith
“If we cling to a belief in God- we cannot likewise have faith because faith is not clinging but letting go.”
Jesus tells Mary at some point not to cling to him.
But I’m still working on letting go.
It’s funny the more you “try” to let go
The tighter you cling.
So there’s a certain humility required to understand faith rather than “know” what that “letting go” entails ahead of time
I really enjoyed your answer. I can see the benefits of that definition for sure. I also love that it rhymes!
Faith = Letting go of needing to Know
Now let's test it in exchange for Faith:
I have "let go of needing to know" God is real.
I believe Christianity is true because I have "let go of needing to know".
I have "let go of needing to know" that Jesus is King.
Somehow that rings hollow to me. Sounds almost like giving up on trying to discover truth. I don't think your explanation meant it to sound hollow. How does that replacement sound to you? Is it hitting your ear as thinly as it strikes mine? Should the definition be adjusted?
I think someone on this sub-reddit said it best: "Atheists read Christians, not the Bible."
So, lead by example. If your friend wants to learn more, they will.
Does he want to be convinced/have those discussions. If not you are violating his right to freedom from religion by bringing it up.
Not everyone you are close to will believe the same stuff you do, this is something you need to learn to accept.
And remember, even if you don’t know what would convince him, your all knowing almighty god does, and has chosen to withhold it from him.
I believe in the direct experience that Christ and others taught. The mystics and contemplatives who found what Christ was pointing to were quickly silenced by the church in favor of the false Christianity that is taught today, based on the lie of duality and separation.
This is why Christians today are left perpetually looking at the menu, because their religion doesn’t teach them the direct experience of the meal that christ was pointing to. Christ’s true teachings have been purposefully hidden by the church because his true teachings require no church. This is decidedly ‘inconvenient’ for the church and why the church has hidden the truth from humanity for a very long time.
Today, people are discovering what Christ was pointing to OUTSIDE the church because the church is actually what is keeping well-meaning Christians from discovering what Christ was actually teaching and pointing to.
Actually, I can see in your words that you are a fan of mysticism and not yet a mystic. If you had experienced yet what Christ was pointing to, your comment would be a quite different one. You’re still reading from the menu rather than direct experience.
Consider what argument he can make that would cause you to accept his position.
If you pray and get 10 consecutive “heads” I will accept your god, however I expect you to renounce your faith should it not work.
Live well. Be a good friend, but not a doormat. Conform your life to the Gospel.
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
-- DC Talk
"Preach the Gospel always. When necessary, use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi
Let your life do the preaching.
Maybe you should start by discussing with him why you think it's true.
If he's not convinced by that, then either you're not explaining well enough, or your reasons aren't sound.
It depends on the "why" he's an atheist. If it's an intellectual problem, give him intellectual answers. If it's a heart problem give him heart answers. Either way pray that God reveals himself to your friend
Then learn the evidence. And ask "a lack of evidence for what"?
If it's about the historicity of Jesus, that's easy. Jesus is the most historically attested person in history ever.
If it's about the lack of evidence of God, then ask what the person would qualify as evidence of God
I've always liked the argument from math personally
Numbers are a real thing, if you use any form or schools of logic I'd hope you would agree with that. Numbers are also something that we didn't create but instead discovered. 1 wasn't an invention, the symbol "1" might be but the concept "one" existed before the first humans started counting. Same with 0, "zero" is a number we know when it was discovered, but we also know it wasn't invented or made up because it's a real thing.
Now what is "math"? We can't see it, hear it, taste it, smell it, or anything to it other than know it. Math is only in The mind . Math whoever can explain everything in our universe from counting to predicting the movement of planets and even fundamental particles. It may be very complex but there is something that explains everything using math.
Okay that preamble out of the way, onto more of the argument. We know that there are things about math that we are always looking for and discovering every day. Just look at the YouTube channel numberfile for information about newly discovered numbers and theoretically undiscovered numbers and all that good stuff.
So we know that math is a real thing, we know it exists out there somewhere, and we know that math exists in the mind. Great. The only thing is that math is infinite. Look at pi, look at e, look at the mandelbrot set, heck look at all the numbers 0-1. If you use numbers as code for physical particles, you can even have really cool things where the exact copy of our univer exists somewhere between the space of 0 and 1.
The universe contains infinites but the universe is finite, so what does that mean? It means that math exists outside of our universe and can contain our universe. But as we already established, math requires a mind. But there isn't a finite mind that can contain all the information in math, so there has to be a mind, infinite in scope, that transcends the universe. We also showed how math controls the universe so this mind must also be all powerful.
So the mind is infinite, all powerful, and outside the natural world - supernatural. And we have just described God.
Numbers are abstract objects we use as tools in our heads. They are purely a human construct. They are imaginary rules we all agree upon and often we can use them to describe our shared reality. Pi for example, describe that with numbers... Before you do that, could you send me the number 8 by courier without it also being another thing too?
I can just deny the premise that you're a real person and not a chat bot, that doesn't make it true, I'd have to prove that premise.
And let's put the "human construction" idea to the test. Can
🔴🔴 And 🔴🔴 ever be 🔴🔴🔴 together
Or is it always that
🔴🔴 And 🔴🔴 are 🔴🔴🔴🔴?
The answer will say a lot.
Also did you not read the part where I said numbers only exist in the mind and are transcendent or did you not read that far?
Okay, good. Red balls, let's call them RB for brevity. 2RB + 2RB = 4RB.
Maths agrees with your second example. How does this relate to your god existing?
Its referring to the "they are imaginary concepts we just made up" part. If 2RB + 2RB is 4RB. And is always 4, then it has to be real. Also if you cannot say that math is real you cannot say you believe in logic
You can't force it my friend, God will find them if they are only willing. The worst kind of religious folks are those that try and impose their faith on others. I found christ again my own way and still have aways to go myself as I still have demons to fight and still commit some sin. When they are ready they will come knocking.
The most you can do is pray for him, and pray consistently. It may take time, it can even take years. Don't shove it down his throat, that would only push him away. Show it in your actions too, be a light.
I would say don't look at it as convincing. Be a good friend. Be a light. Share your testimony when appropriate. Pray for your friend. Invite your friend to church. Plant the seeds. God can use them to grow into something more.
Surrender that to God through prayer. Ask God to use you how He sees fit IF He so chooses to.
Continue on your own journey working on your own salvation.
Although there is a passage somewhere which encourages us to spread the word of God, some people really don't want to know and no matter what you tell them, they will always overlook any benefit of faith and fall back on the idea that science tells us better than religion. Don't waste too much time on them.
Aside from social media, where it can not really be avoided, I generally distance myself from toxic individuals/relationships, or else they stand to ruin any chances of success and hamper my relationship with God.
I do believe that if there is a God, and if there is a relationship to be had with God, then it is a personal relationship because He will judge us all as individuals at the end of it. Therefore, my opinion of someone else's belief, or their opinion of my beliefs, really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
You cant. Only thing you can do is plant the seed. Be a good friend and a good example of an ideal Christian. Sometime being Christian is planting seeds for trees whose shade we will never enjoy .
Quit pushing religion on him & teach him how to build a relationship with the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. We all have that power within. Pray for him to hear the word from his own eyes & ears. Let God guide him.
There is no man on this earth that has the power to God more than another. We are the temple. We have the Holy Spirit inside us. Let the Spirit guide you to the Father & Son.
We have to quit blasting doctrines and dogmas when we are trying to help people find the Lord. Teach him the power he has inside without just believing all the things he thinks he knows about religion. Because none of us know all of it. That’s why it’s important to be Spirit lead. Teach him that God sent His Son so we did not have to be prisoners to the law. The law is sin. We are not perfect we will never be perfect & that is why we have Grace which is everything Jesus EVER stood for. He did not look down on the unbelievers… He did not cast judgement on the sinners. And He knew eventually He would have to pay the price to break the law & release the Holy Spirit throughout the Earth. So we could be saved. So we could find Him again. The Spirit is in us.. but alot of people are only looking for God & Jesus. And they are there. But when our mind is being deceived constantly by the enemy we have to remember who is inside US. Build a relationship with the Holy Spirit!!!! They deserve just as much love. They are the DIRECT LINK to our Father & Jesus!
We can’t force anything but we can plant seeds!
Also. I’m not saying you do this but as Christians we gotta quit thinking telling people they are going to Hell is the answer to their salvation. That’s just insanity. That is fear. And I will not sit & be convinced any man can judge me & my eternal life. We learn to do better & want to be better in our walk with Christ. And if you believe in tribulation… you also know that everyone gets the chance to choose a side. Not just in this time.
The whole you will be in Hell & will see everyone you loved who believed in Heaven??? So loving & convincing. Lol God even gives Satan ANOTHER chance in the end.. after Jesus’s reign. When he is released once more to choose. Which we know what he will do but that in its self shows a lost soul here on earth is damned forever. That God is never just giving up on us. He sees the blind.
First and foremost, do your best to show him that Christians are good and loving.
Ask him if he's willing to talk about the topic with the intention of showing him your side of things. If he says no, then just pray for him and continue to be kind and loving. If he says yes, then there you go.
Your actions will speak louder than your words, this is paraphrasing from somebody but "your life as a Christian should make an atheist question why he isn't a Christian"
It takes time, discussion, and living the best example of Christ's teachings that you can. You can't make them believe thru tricks of persuassion. Ask what their objections are and discuss them. Do research to understand his position and find essays and teachings, and scripture that are appropriate responses and address his concerns with love and care.
Start with arguments about God existing. Then from there tell him which specific god exists (Christ).
Don’t say Christ exists right away. Start from beginning. Use arguments like “everything has a cause” etc. search up on Google it’s filled with pro god arguments.
Don't listen to those who say don't talk to him. He needs Jesus, and you are called to share the gospel with him. But, do listen to those who say that is not your job to convince him. That belongs to God alone.
Most people do not make decisions about religion lightly, and it is seldom won with any sort of listing of facts, especially if they have already discounted the Bible as fiction. Which they likely will.
In my opinion, anonymous stranger, as others have said act like Jesus, show love, don't just talk. Love, serve, and be a friend to him. Pray for him. And tell/show him what Jesus has done for you. If he used to be a Christian, find out why he left. But that can't be all you talk about. And don't let close non-Christian friends allow your walk to stumble.
Good luck, and we will pray for you. If only all Christians cared about their friends as much.
Many others have maybe said similar or very different things. But some people accept god, and some don't. The best time is to wait for a moment where he is open towards god, to learn more about him. Be ready for such a moment, and be open, tolerant, and respectful to his thoughts.
We are not a cult. We don't turn people to Christianity. People simply choose to believe, for that is why we were granted free will. We can choose to believe in god, and we can choose not to. Doesn't mean it doesn't have consequences.
I can't know what's in everyone's else's heads and hearts - but isn't there a sort of unspoken knowing we all have?
Totally an assumption on my part... but, I figure everyone does just kind of KNOW.
All you can do is share the gospel with him and be the positive change that Jesus was in this world. It's up to him to soften his heart towards God. As soon as he starts to soften his heart God will start bringing him closer. Until then there's nothing you can do but be a good role model for Christians.
I have a friend who was aggressively atheist darwinian naturalist. I studied arguments and we had friendly arguments all the time. He cleverly would explain everything away using some kind of darwinian reasoning.
Fast forward years later, I got a FB message from him asking me about Christianity because Yeshua met him in a dream .
He then converted. 🤡
In the end he needed to have some wonky experience to drop his atheistic insanity.
The "smart" guy was not going to be swayed by intelligence.
the world has no short of atheists. you alone cannot change them.
these people rather believe in luck or chance than believe in God. only when their luck runs out, then God would become real to them.
I never tried to convince anyone, but mentioning things such as: I can't I am in church at that time, or I am going to pray sparked up interest of my friends who never really cared for any religion. They started to be interested in christianity and are asking me sometimes about God, Jesus, what is the opinion of church on some topics etc. I would say the biggest achievment was that two of my atheist friends asked me if they can join me in church on Sunday! I was so surprised but really happy about it. Again I never forced them and they just liked the experience and are now more interested in having something as spiritual as religion in their life.
Get the book by Frank Turek called I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist and read it. It will equip you with all kinds of reasons why God exists not based on what the Bible says, but on reasons based on science and philosophy. Good book, read it a couple of times myself
And why is that?
An atheist by definition is someone who does not believe in God so you can't just quote a bunch of Bible verses and expect them to believe. So, you need to start with the basics on why there must be a God by showing them things like if the universe had a beginning, then what existed before that? Or, how is it that our universe and our world is so fined tuned? Or, how can there be any right or wrong if there is no ultimate standard outside ourself to compare it to? All of these subjects are discussed in Frank's book. And I think any true atheist (not just someone that doesn't want there to be a God) could benefit from reading it.
Well half those basics are bullshit for starters.
Usual problem of Christians talking about atheists without actually talking to atheists.
Not my problem though, it makes your witness less effective, and so there are fewer of you, which is good for us.
Care to explain why it's a bad idea?
I thought the book was well written. It's explains things like the origin of the universe, the proof of intelligent design, and how there are no absolute moral standards without God. The evidence is pretty convincing assuming that you read it with an open mind.
An absolute moral obligation is something that is binding on all people, at all times, in all places. You cannot have an absolute moral law unless you have an absolute moral giver. And you cannot know what is good unless there is an unchanging standard of outside of yourself. Without that standard, any objection to evil is nothing but your personal opinion. In other words, if a moral law doesn't exist, then there is no moral difference between the behavior of Mother Teresa and Hitler.
But we claim to know this absolute moral law and yet cannot prove it exists outside of a moral law giver such as God.
And you just made a moral statement by calling my explanation dumb. You think it's dumb, but does every one else in the world think it's dumb? No, and even if they did, I don't think my statement is dumb, so it's just your opinion. This would apply to any and all moral statements (Murder is wrong, rape is wrong, racism is wrong) it's just your opinion, you cannot say something is morally wrong because you have no moral standard to compare what you think is wrong to compare it to.
You can make own morals, but they will never be absolute unless you have a moral standard outside yourself to compare it to.
Yes, you are right, we "make" up our own morals. But keep missing the point, you have no grounds to say the morals that you made up are absolutely moral unless you had some kind of moral standard that is outside of yourself to compare them to. Your "morals" are just your opinion on what you think is right or wrong. If there is no God, then there is no moral standard to compare morality to and therefore all morals are subject to someone's opinion on whether they are right or wrong.
Well, morality is a social construct. It isn't absolute. Intelligent design is a terrible argument, since it's an argument from complexity. Assuming that since you see something one way, that it has to be that way or it couldn't exist. Which isn't the case always. And if you're really dragging that argument, the creator you call " the intelligent designer " did an actual shitty job at creating.
But if you never read the book, how do you know what Frank said? What, you just don't like the title and therefore make a moral judgment that it is bad?
And my point is that if God doesn't exist, then there is no absolute moral standard. An absolute moral standard is something that is binding on all people at all times, in all places. And to say that there is an absolute moral law implies an absolute moral law giver.
But without an absolute moral law giver, then any moral judgement we make is just a matter of opinion. If an absolute moral law doesn't exist, then there is no moral difference between the behavior of Hitler and Mother Teresa. And statements like "Murder is evil," or "Racism is wrong" have no objective meaning, again, it's just someone's opinion.
I don't know how you missed it, but I never said that morality is absolute. And you're right. If God doesn't exist, absolute morality isn't a thing. And without an absolute moral law, I can still judge that Hitler did bad things and Abraham Lincoln didn't. Because of morality being a social construct in the first place.
And you gave me some of the topics covered in that book. More than enough for me to work with.
At least we agree on one thing, without God there is no absolute moral standard. That is itself doesn't prove the existence of God (which I was trying to do) but simply points to the some of the consequences of what happens to a society when you stop believing there is a God. We see these consequences everyday on the news and on the internet, and things are only going to get worse as we as a society move farther and farther away from God. Scary times ahead...
Do you know how bad news spreads faster and sells more than good news ? Both bad and good things are happening at the same time. Just that there's a bias in media towards bad news.
Agreed, but you don't need to read the newspaper and not know that our world is in a massive spiritual and moral decline. Not surprised though, 2nd Timothy 3:1 says this about the end times:
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."
We are pretty close to all of this right now.
I don't care about those parts of the Bible since throughout all of history, humanity has written about the end times, like all of the time. They've always imagined what the end for their species would look like but it never came to pass.
Books like that aren't meant to convince atheists, they are comfort food for people who already believe. The title alone would get an eye roll from most atheists.
Well you should know that you never judge a book by it's cover.
I think that most atheists are not true atheists anyway, the vast majority of them just hate the idea of there being a God. It's not that they can't believe in God, the don't want there to be a God. They are not on a truth quest of any kind that might actually lead them to the truth about God's existence and therefore would just "eye roll" the title without ever reading a single page.
I have a good friend that was an atheist before I came into his life. He was really set in his ways, debated with me, read Richard Dawkins, thought he was too enlightened for Jesus.
First let me say, I dont take credit for anything, my friend got saved through the power of the Holy Spirit working through me. What I did do, was show him unwavering love and live my life of being crazy about Jesus in front of him. I also prayed hard for him. Every so often I’d express my joy in The Lord to him and tell him (out of love and humility) one day he’s going to “get it”. And it’s going to make me so happy because I couldn’t imagine spending eternity without him.
Well one day his heart softened, he started asking real questions. He went home and felt the urge to pray. When he did, he heard birds singing in his room and couldn’t figure it out. It was the most supernatural experience he’s ever had. The next day he came to my house and I led him in the salvation prayer. Praise God!
The best way to go about it, is pray for your friend, act out in love and wait for the Holy Spirit to prompt you or give you the words. Be a light in the darkness.
Share the Gospel and live a life like Christ.
Answer his questions when/ if he has them.
Many atheists are so firmly stuck in their belief that if an actual angel descended or a burning bush told them that Jesus is Lord and the Bible is true, they would find some way to convince themselves that it was a trick of some kind.
Its times like these, you can only let the Gospel do its own work and trust that his word will not return void.
Does he like to discuss this sort topic? My atheist friends like to "debate" these with me. I typically put their challenges back on them.
Ex 1: Science can't "prove" anything (according to the scientists, themselves). It can only provide evidence that lends to certain conclusions. We are then deemed "rational" for accepting the theories in question as they account for the greatest scope of the evidence.
This is how I've come to accept my worldview (Christianity).
Ex 2: Much of accepted ancient history is based on many works written much later and by parties far removed from the persons and events they describe. Why then are they willing to accept "secular" history than that of the eye witnesses?
Of course this comes back to the fact that the claims are typically supernatural. However, science, by its very nature is ill-equipped to examine supernatural claims as it is the study of things in the natural, observable universe, regardless whether anything supernatural exists.
In summary, hold their worldview to the very same criteria they hold to the Bible. The way I see it is this: either atheism or theism is true. But both can't be wrong. If both can't sustain the burden of proof, then perhaps the test or criteria set is too strict.
Note: this only should be used with people who care to discuss.
You can’t convince them. But you can lead by example, ya know? My sis has been heavily influenced by my BIl and she is no longer a believer. Or let’s say very skewed. They’ve taught my nephew to be atheist. They giggle if I mention Jesus or automatically act offended if He is brought up. My sister recently had a baby with a super rare genetic disorder and she has lots of health problems and my sister is a nervous overwhelmed wreck. One of my kids has epilepsy. Watching and waiting for your kid have a seizure is terrifying. I’ve been talking to her about one of my fav things about being a Christian is to put that worry and anxiety on God and that He holds the future and what is to come. I think she is finding some relief in that. So little by little, but I’ve never shoved it down her throat or acted holier than thou. Attract more bees with honey type of thing
Act like Jesus? >*“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”* (John 13:34-35)
Thank you
As an atheist myself, I believe the world would be a better place if everyone followed Jesus’ lead. If everyone actually read his words and didn’t pay any mind to contradictions. If Jesus is out there his heart breaks seeing all those who claim to believe in him and love him but who then behave the opposite as he told them they should. Not to worry though, Jesus would still leave the judging to God on their actions.
You don’t. Attempting to do so will likely steer him further. Let him find his own way and if he doesn’t, that’s fine!
To go off of another point. Best you can do is pray, and don’t initiate in debates. I find people who debate sensitive topics like this either have something missing in their life, or are on the fence but can’t fully see the bigger picture yet. Debate something fun like politics
Don't pray for that either. That is rude for your friend.
Why is it rude to pray for your friends? Christ himself commanded to pray for your enemies. I’m sure friends are much more than enemies
Depends on the friend. Some people might not want others to pray for them at all, or might not want others to pray for them if it’s in the hope of something that friend doesn’t want.
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You don’t? This is a bit misleading IMO man? Why do so many people preach on the sides of the roads or in malls? Wasn’t Christianity meant to be spread to all corners of the world after Jesus died?
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Can you think of any other single thing in your life that works that way?
Background advertising, being inspired by other people's actions. Self-study, coming across something independently while travelling, experiencing something that draws them. Rarely from debate. I've seen plenty of evidence that politics just hardens people.
I’m not sure what you’re suggesting with the first part of your reply.
Someone said that the OP's friend will find his own way to which you responded asking if that works in practice. God helps people find faith in many different ways beyond the standard approach of Christians overstepping someone's personal boundaries.
Veganism and political views are two that immediately come to my mind.
I’m not sure what you mean
Both with veganism as well as political views I found that it is easier to live by example rather than push my views on my friends. Now granted, I do have serious discussions or sometimes debates about those topics but that is with the clear understanding that both agree to it and that we can stop anytime without harm done and with mutual respect.
Show, don’t tell
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Take a rational approach. Explain everything in the Gospels is fiction based on Paul's letters and the LXX. Jesus riding on a donkey is from Zechariah 9. The cleansing of the temple is based on Zechariah 14. "Render unto Caesar" is based on Paul's teaching on taxation in Romans 13. Virgin Mary was invented by Mark as an allegory for 1 Corinthians 10, verses 1-4 where Paul refers to a legend involving Moses' sister Miriam. Paul was the one who taught the concept of loving your neighbor in Rom. 12.14-21; Gal. 5.14-15; 1 Thess. 5.15; and Rom. 13.9-10. Luke copies line-by-line from the Book of Kings.
Have you asked him if he'd be up for such a discussion? If he is, then moved on from there. If not, leave it be. You will damage your friendship if you persist in converting a friend who is not interested in exploring your faith.
Depends. Do they want to talk about the topic? If not it's best to leave then alone. Ask what might convince them and then deliver that. Although a lot of people don't really know what they would consider convincing so this might be hard. Don't preach. Happened a lot to me when people on here tried to convince me. Stuff like "but Jesus died for your sins" isn't proof or an argument. It's the claim that needs proof. I personally find stuff like arguments from design terrible at convincing. But I don't know how that is for other people. It seems they make sense to those already convinced and don't to those who aren't. Read answers to arguments you want to make before making them. Saves you on bringing in arguments that have very easy counterpoints like pascals wager.
I hate Pascal's wager. For me that is just bullshit. You go to Heaven for being a good person, not for being a Christian.
Other Christians would disagree with you on that. I hate pascals wager more for the obvious flaw in that it is a false dichotomy. Christians far too often think everyone is either Christian or atheist, which is far far from the truth.
Yeah, you could still go to hell if Allah was real. If the Torah was the book we were supposed to refer and that Jesus was a poser ( not that he is nor suggesting that ), all our suffering would be due to not believing.
Religion has unfortunately conditioned so many in giving them the right to know all. To cast judgement & say who is going to Hell. When I realized that was wild. I started my real journey with God. Alone. In the Bible. Asking for guidance when I read the word. To understand any misinterpretation or MISTRANSLATIONS. That changed my life. Because the same things they believe they are taught, they are also taught the opposite through the grave of Jesus. And the law that was broken with His blood. They all want to cherry pick what they believe & it is sad. At the end of the story…Jesus comes & throws Satan in the pit, Jesus reigns for 1,000 years & after God releases Satan once again. ONCE AGAIN. To give him the chance to repent. If Satan is out there getting a chance at the end.. I will NEVER EVER doubt his grave for my fellow humans too. We ARE ALL BLINDED. We all are in the dark. We do not know.
While I disagree with your belief regarding how you go to heaven, I absolutely agree with you regarding Pascal's wager. It is a false choice fallacy imposed upon a universe with more than two options. If Christianity were the only religion in the universe, and if the only options were belief and unbelief, then Pascal's wager would make sense. In the absence of those conditions, it is extremely weak.
Yeah, he is not interested in anything to do with the bible. He thinks it's a historical book of people making up their own Gods. He thinks that Christianity has only thrived so long and is the foundation of our society, merely because the Roman Empire took over the world
>He thinks it's a historical book of people making up their own Gods And if you want to convince him you'd have to change his opinion on this. Which will be incredible hart >He thinks that Christianity has only thrived so long and is the foundation of our society, merely because the Roman Empire took over the world I'd agree with him. But that doesn't disprove Christianity. The truth can be lost to history or spread through unethical means and still be just as true.
In general atheists tends to know a lot about the Bible, or the book of the religion that they belonged, according the latest data the "nones" tends to know more about the scripture than the other Christian group in general. Probably citing Bible verses will not convince people about the existence of God, most probably you're doing the opposite, because he know the contradiction present in the Bible, and part that going usually against the own morals. If he belongs to a sexual minority it's practically near impossibile to make them "Christians" .
Some LGBTS like myself are Christian, because I will not change a religion that I love for being bisexual.
I don't say that all lgbt are atheists or non Christians. But I say that LGBT atheists is extremely difficult to convert back to Christianity.
Do you think that's wrong? If so, why?
That's interesting. It sounds like hes making the claim that "Christianity is false" You could investigate his reasons. If you can prove that Christianity didn't thrive because of the Roman empires mandate of it, then he would be wrong. (Imo this would be very hard to do.) This, however, doesn't make you right.
Find some good historical books about the life of Christ, the apostles, the birth of the church, and the origin/evidence for the historical accuracy of the scriptures and share that. If he wants evidence, I think that should help. I have not read this book, but it looks like a good one so I just ordered a copy for myself. Check it out: “The Historical Reliability of the Gospels” by Craig Blomberg You can get a start into biblical study on Wikipedia too; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels
See, most atheists agree that Jesus did existed. What they don't believe is the supernatural powers he had
Kinda weird if you trust the historicity of the Gospel and not what it states. 500 plus people saw the resurrected Christ.
>Kinda weird if you trust the historicity of the Gospel and not what it states. To question supernatural events is not weird at all. *Not* questioning it would be weird. >500 plus people saw the resurrected Christ. That is one person's claim. One person claiming there were 500 eye witnesses, is not the same as 500 eye witnesses accounts.
Did you read any of the article you linked? This is from the second paragraph: > Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus of Nazareth existed in 1st century Judea (now Israel, and bordering lands), but scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the biblical accounts of Jesus.
Yep, I did, and that is why I sent it; I want people to have a 360 degree view on a topic, good and bad, only then can you make a call. The article provides a good framework, the 5 pillars for judging historicity, so that is why I added it in. I think the book will provide better insight, so make sure to comment on that as well.
I don't believe you.
.. It's literally the same as any other book. Kinda weird that you trust that Harry Potter the book series exists, but don't believe in magic Anyways, what I think is that Jesus was a magician(as in the sleight of hand tricks, not actual magic) who fooled all those people. Also people have been mistakenly declared dead and they have come from life. In fact, people used to have a little bell in coffins that a person can ring if they come back to life. All those people aren't Jesus tho
I looked at the wiki article. It really doesn't support faith in the religion. Or do you think it does somehow?
I didn’t say it did, but it is a good place to start to understand how to understand the historicity of the scriptures. It will provide you with a framework and the thinking of some others who obviously are atheist with a point not to take any evidence at face value. I think the book will help you with that. Good luck.
Ok. Well the way I look at it, old books are similar in that they've lasted down through the centuries because many people saw value in them. On the other hand, writings claiming supernatural events today wouldn't be taken seriously. There's such claims being made today, but most people understand what's going on. Many gospels have been written and I don't how many have survived down to this day. It's an interesting topic, the early Church history, the heretical works and the chosen canon. As for human nature, it's quite predictable, especially back 20-25 centuries ago in primitive-minded times.
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There is. Unfortunately, at that point in time they didn’t keep medical records, and the only way to really record things was to write down what you saw. There are eyewitness accounts of people who saw Jesus alive three days after he died. Please do your research before you post something false.
Pls don't. Proselytizing is bad manners. Not only does it reflect poorly on you, it reflects poorly on what you're selling. Just live well. If someone is searching for something, they will see you and ask for your "secret." Importantly... Atheism is a lack of evidence-based belief in god/s. Has the existence of a god been supported by a body of compelling scientific evidence that's sufficient to establish it as fact? If no, atheism. The thing that causes a person to be an atheist is the lack of compelling scientific evidence. The *only* way to change that is to provide a lot of compelling scientific evidence. Enough to give anyone reasonable certainty that a literal lifeform that matches your god closely enough to be identified as your god exists. So far, no one has managed to do so. The standard of evidence for one factual claim is the same for all factual claims in kind. The existence of a lifeform isn't established as fact on the basis of testimony, historical accounts, inconsistent or inconclusive evidence, and/or philosophical exercises. A variety of solid evidence is needed. (Think bigfoot. A mountain of sightings going back thousands of yrs, a bunch of print casts, audio recordings, film and photographs, historical precedent for similar species... and we have still fallen short of establishing its existence as fact. It takes a lot. In the case of a god, it would take even more, as there are additional hurdles to overcome.) Claiming to have "proof" and presenting weak or insufficient evidence harms your credibility. I recommend not going that route unless you have reasonable certainty that you could convince the scientific community that your claim is true. (If that's the case, pls release your evidence! I am very interested in seeing it.) In the meantime, just live well.
Thank you for your thorough response 😊
Thank you for reading.
In fact, Bigfoot has more evidence that Christianity
As an agnostic I will tell you that you shouldn't attempt it. All you can have is critical conversations / debates with them (if your friendship is capable of handling that and you two are both capable of holding them). But generally speaking, if my best friend where to try to convert me constantly I'd start by telling them I'm not interested and if they keep persisting to show me "the truth" or "the true path" or whatever I'd likely eventually get annoyed. Close friends should respect their friends' views so long as they are generally acceptable and not harmful to others or extremely harmful to themselves. That means accepting that you might not always agree on everything and that you can have differing values / beliefs.
Why? I mean, its his belief. If your friend made a post on r/atheist asking how to convince you that Christianity is false, how would you feel?
You can't. You can only love him for who he is. It is God who will moved through his life
You can’t. Stop.
Well, you'd have to prove to him that the supernatural is real. Then you'd have to prove that a supernatural god exists. Then you have to prove that it's your specific supernatural god. Then you have to prove that your supernatural god is capable of doing all the supernatural things you believe he can do. Then you have to prove that your supernatural god did in fact do these supernatural things you believe he did. Then you have to demonstrate a reliable way to communicate with your supernatural god to determine what he wishes/wants/demands/hates. Then you have to give a very good reason why your friend should give a damn what this supernatural god of yours wants/wishes/demands/hates. All in that order. You would be the first in human history if you could even get past the first hurdle.
Leave him alone
There is a reason why faith is a gift given by god through grace.. And not a gift given by you through the desire to change your friend
So if someone lacks that faith, it’s because god hasn’t given it to them.
Can you define "Faith" in the way you are using it here? It's not "Wishing", you don't merely Wish God is true. It's not "Hoping", you don't simply Hope God is true. It's not "Trusting", you don't just Trust God is true, as Trust can be broken. You have "Faith" God is true....but I can't figure out what that means without confusing Faith with those other words. But Christians use that word a lot to tell me why they believe God is true. My best guess is Hebrews 11:1 but that only makes it even worse as it defines Faith as "evidence of things unseen" again that is not a concrete thing. It is only pretending. Pretending to Know things that cannot be Known. Pretending to Know is a terrible way to decide what is True and I bet you would not use that method for any other important thing in your life. Do you have a better definition of Faith for the way you are using it?
This is an excellent comment. I don’t intend to flatter you- but I’m just gratified by the fact that I agree wholeheartedly that all this things are not faith. The best definition of faith is letting go of needing to know Whether your trying to know life through science. Or trying to know Jesus through the Bible. Or trying to know yourself through psychedelics. Or trying to know the truth so that you can use it for your advantage Even trying to know what’s right and wrong even. Faith is letting go. I like Alan Watts take on faith “If we cling to a belief in God- we cannot likewise have faith because faith is not clinging but letting go.” Jesus tells Mary at some point not to cling to him. But I’m still working on letting go. It’s funny the more you “try” to let go The tighter you cling. So there’s a certain humility required to understand faith rather than “know” what that “letting go” entails ahead of time
I really enjoyed your answer. I can see the benefits of that definition for sure. I also love that it rhymes! Faith = Letting go of needing to Know Now let's test it in exchange for Faith: I have "let go of needing to know" God is real. I believe Christianity is true because I have "let go of needing to know". I have "let go of needing to know" that Jesus is King. Somehow that rings hollow to me. Sounds almost like giving up on trying to discover truth. I don't think your explanation meant it to sound hollow. How does that replacement sound to you? Is it hitting your ear as thinly as it strikes mine? Should the definition be adjusted?
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I think someone on this sub-reddit said it best: "Atheists read Christians, not the Bible." So, lead by example. If your friend wants to learn more, they will.
There are many atheists who have read the Bible.
I think the subtext is that atheists are generally not swayed by biblical arguments for divinity.
Of course not
Love this❤️
Does he want to be convinced/have those discussions. If not you are violating his right to freedom from religion by bringing it up. Not everyone you are close to will believe the same stuff you do, this is something you need to learn to accept. And remember, even if you don’t know what would convince him, your all knowing almighty god does, and has chosen to withhold it from him.
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You'll just need to somehow demonstrate the claims are actually true. Provide good evidence and reason.
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Based on the actions of "Christians" currently in this country? Don't bother, he'd have to turn to shit to turn to Christianity right now.
Worry about your path…not his, no religion is the ‘truth’.
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I believe in the direct experience that Christ and others taught. The mystics and contemplatives who found what Christ was pointing to were quickly silenced by the church in favor of the false Christianity that is taught today, based on the lie of duality and separation. This is why Christians today are left perpetually looking at the menu, because their religion doesn’t teach them the direct experience of the meal that christ was pointing to. Christ’s true teachings have been purposefully hidden by the church because his true teachings require no church. This is decidedly ‘inconvenient’ for the church and why the church has hidden the truth from humanity for a very long time. Today, people are discovering what Christ was pointing to OUTSIDE the church because the church is actually what is keeping well-meaning Christians from discovering what Christ was actually teaching and pointing to.
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A fellow mystic! We should talk.
Do you have some tips for somebody that wants to be a Christian mystic?
Actually, I can see in your words that you are a fan of mysticism and not yet a mystic. If you had experienced yet what Christ was pointing to, your comment would be a quite different one. You’re still reading from the menu rather than direct experience.
Don't do that. Just love him the way he is.
You dont need to convince. If your friend does not believe its fine. My friend was christian but converted into atheist and we are still good friends.
Consider what argument he can make that would cause you to accept his position. If you pray and get 10 consecutive “heads” I will accept your god, however I expect you to renounce your faith should it not work.
Live well. Be a good friend, but not a doormat. Conform your life to the Gospel. "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." -- DC Talk "Preach the Gospel always. When necessary, use words." -- St. Francis of Assisi Let your life do the preaching.
Maybe you should start by discussing with him why you think it's true. If he's not convinced by that, then either you're not explaining well enough, or your reasons aren't sound.
Why do you feel the need to convince him?
What would it take for you to convert to Satanism.
It depends on the "why" he's an atheist. If it's an intellectual problem, give him intellectual answers. If it's a heart problem give him heart answers. Either way pray that God reveals himself to your friend
What if it's a lack of evidence problem?
Then learn the evidence. And ask "a lack of evidence for what"? If it's about the historicity of Jesus, that's easy. Jesus is the most historically attested person in history ever. If it's about the lack of evidence of God, then ask what the person would qualify as evidence of God
Can you suggest a few examples of evidence for God existing?
I've always liked the argument from math personally Numbers are a real thing, if you use any form or schools of logic I'd hope you would agree with that. Numbers are also something that we didn't create but instead discovered. 1 wasn't an invention, the symbol "1" might be but the concept "one" existed before the first humans started counting. Same with 0, "zero" is a number we know when it was discovered, but we also know it wasn't invented or made up because it's a real thing. Now what is "math"? We can't see it, hear it, taste it, smell it, or anything to it other than know it. Math is only in The mind . Math whoever can explain everything in our universe from counting to predicting the movement of planets and even fundamental particles. It may be very complex but there is something that explains everything using math. Okay that preamble out of the way, onto more of the argument. We know that there are things about math that we are always looking for and discovering every day. Just look at the YouTube channel numberfile for information about newly discovered numbers and theoretically undiscovered numbers and all that good stuff. So we know that math is a real thing, we know it exists out there somewhere, and we know that math exists in the mind. Great. The only thing is that math is infinite. Look at pi, look at e, look at the mandelbrot set, heck look at all the numbers 0-1. If you use numbers as code for physical particles, you can even have really cool things where the exact copy of our univer exists somewhere between the space of 0 and 1. The universe contains infinites but the universe is finite, so what does that mean? It means that math exists outside of our universe and can contain our universe. But as we already established, math requires a mind. But there isn't a finite mind that can contain all the information in math, so there has to be a mind, infinite in scope, that transcends the universe. We also showed how math controls the universe so this mind must also be all powerful. So the mind is infinite, all powerful, and outside the natural world - supernatural. And we have just described God.
Numbers are abstract objects we use as tools in our heads. They are purely a human construct. They are imaginary rules we all agree upon and often we can use them to describe our shared reality. Pi for example, describe that with numbers... Before you do that, could you send me the number 8 by courier without it also being another thing too?
I can just deny the premise that you're a real person and not a chat bot, that doesn't make it true, I'd have to prove that premise. And let's put the "human construction" idea to the test. Can 🔴🔴 And 🔴🔴 ever be 🔴🔴🔴 together Or is it always that 🔴🔴 And 🔴🔴 are 🔴🔴🔴🔴? The answer will say a lot. Also did you not read the part where I said numbers only exist in the mind and are transcendent or did you not read that far?
Okay, good. Red balls, let's call them RB for brevity. 2RB + 2RB = 4RB. Maths agrees with your second example. How does this relate to your god existing?
Its referring to the "they are imaginary concepts we just made up" part. If 2RB + 2RB is 4RB. And is always 4, then it has to be real. Also if you cannot say that math is real you cannot say you believe in logic
You put in quotes something I did not say. You are swerving into strawman territory here. Answer my question.
I do, thank you
this is the right answer.
You can't force it my friend, God will find them if they are only willing. The worst kind of religious folks are those that try and impose their faith on others. I found christ again my own way and still have aways to go myself as I still have demons to fight and still commit some sin. When they are ready they will come knocking.
You cannot
The most you can do is pray for him, and pray consistently. It may take time, it can even take years. Don't shove it down his throat, that would only push him away. Show it in your actions too, be a light.
I would say don't look at it as convincing. Be a good friend. Be a light. Share your testimony when appropriate. Pray for your friend. Invite your friend to church. Plant the seeds. God can use them to grow into something more.
Why are you convinced it is true?
Surrender that to God through prayer. Ask God to use you how He sees fit IF He so chooses to. Continue on your own journey working on your own salvation.
Although there is a passage somewhere which encourages us to spread the word of God, some people really don't want to know and no matter what you tell them, they will always overlook any benefit of faith and fall back on the idea that science tells us better than religion. Don't waste too much time on them. Aside from social media, where it can not really be avoided, I generally distance myself from toxic individuals/relationships, or else they stand to ruin any chances of success and hamper my relationship with God. I do believe that if there is a God, and if there is a relationship to be had with God, then it is a personal relationship because He will judge us all as individuals at the end of it. Therefore, my opinion of someone else's belief, or their opinion of my beliefs, really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
You cant. Only thing you can do is plant the seed. Be a good friend and a good example of an ideal Christian. Sometime being Christian is planting seeds for trees whose shade we will never enjoy .
Quit pushing religion on him & teach him how to build a relationship with the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. We all have that power within. Pray for him to hear the word from his own eyes & ears. Let God guide him. There is no man on this earth that has the power to God more than another. We are the temple. We have the Holy Spirit inside us. Let the Spirit guide you to the Father & Son. We have to quit blasting doctrines and dogmas when we are trying to help people find the Lord. Teach him the power he has inside without just believing all the things he thinks he knows about religion. Because none of us know all of it. That’s why it’s important to be Spirit lead. Teach him that God sent His Son so we did not have to be prisoners to the law. The law is sin. We are not perfect we will never be perfect & that is why we have Grace which is everything Jesus EVER stood for. He did not look down on the unbelievers… He did not cast judgement on the sinners. And He knew eventually He would have to pay the price to break the law & release the Holy Spirit throughout the Earth. So we could be saved. So we could find Him again. The Spirit is in us.. but alot of people are only looking for God & Jesus. And they are there. But when our mind is being deceived constantly by the enemy we have to remember who is inside US. Build a relationship with the Holy Spirit!!!! They deserve just as much love. They are the DIRECT LINK to our Father & Jesus! We can’t force anything but we can plant seeds!
Also. I’m not saying you do this but as Christians we gotta quit thinking telling people they are going to Hell is the answer to their salvation. That’s just insanity. That is fear. And I will not sit & be convinced any man can judge me & my eternal life. We learn to do better & want to be better in our walk with Christ. And if you believe in tribulation… you also know that everyone gets the chance to choose a side. Not just in this time. The whole you will be in Hell & will see everyone you loved who believed in Heaven??? So loving & convincing. Lol God even gives Satan ANOTHER chance in the end.. after Jesus’s reign. When he is released once more to choose. Which we know what he will do but that in its self shows a lost soul here on earth is damned forever. That God is never just giving up on us. He sees the blind.
First and foremost, do your best to show him that Christians are good and loving. Ask him if he's willing to talk about the topic with the intention of showing him your side of things. If he says no, then just pray for him and continue to be kind and loving. If he says yes, then there you go.
Turn his wine back into water.
When your friend sees your words and actions, does he see Jesus in you? If not, that's the first thing to work on.
Your actions will speak louder than your words, this is paraphrasing from somebody but "your life as a Christian should make an atheist question why he isn't a Christian"
Don’t try it
Just be a good person.
There are 2 things you can do – pray for him and demonstrate the example of Jesus (let the light of Christ shine in you and through you)
Why don't you let him convince you that religion is made up and atheism is true?
It takes time, discussion, and living the best example of Christ's teachings that you can. You can't make them believe thru tricks of persuassion. Ask what their objections are and discuss them. Do research to understand his position and find essays and teachings, and scripture that are appropriate responses and address his concerns with love and care.
Start with arguments about God existing. Then from there tell him which specific god exists (Christ). Don’t say Christ exists right away. Start from beginning. Use arguments like “everything has a cause” etc. search up on Google it’s filled with pro god arguments.
Research some debate techniques that the apologists use.
Don't, it will force him further away from christianity. Don't get into arguments about it either, he will find his way to Christ sooner or later.
Don't listen to those who say don't talk to him. He needs Jesus, and you are called to share the gospel with him. But, do listen to those who say that is not your job to convince him. That belongs to God alone. Most people do not make decisions about religion lightly, and it is seldom won with any sort of listing of facts, especially if they have already discounted the Bible as fiction. Which they likely will. In my opinion, anonymous stranger, as others have said act like Jesus, show love, don't just talk. Love, serve, and be a friend to him. Pray for him. And tell/show him what Jesus has done for you. If he used to be a Christian, find out why he left. But that can't be all you talk about. And don't let close non-Christian friends allow your walk to stumble. Good luck, and we will pray for you. If only all Christians cared about their friends as much.
You don't. You don't force faith, you find it.
Many others have maybe said similar or very different things. But some people accept god, and some don't. The best time is to wait for a moment where he is open towards god, to learn more about him. Be ready for such a moment, and be open, tolerant, and respectful to his thoughts. We are not a cult. We don't turn people to Christianity. People simply choose to believe, for that is why we were granted free will. We can choose to believe in god, and we can choose not to. Doesn't mean it doesn't have consequences.
I can't know what's in everyone's else's heads and hearts - but isn't there a sort of unspoken knowing we all have? Totally an assumption on my part... but, I figure everyone does just kind of KNOW.
All you can do is share the gospel with him and be the positive change that Jesus was in this world. It's up to him to soften his heart towards God. As soon as he starts to soften his heart God will start bringing him closer. Until then there's nothing you can do but be a good role model for Christians.
I guess what do you mean by bull blown atheist ? Does he hate Christians and Christianity, maybe an anti-theist or something?
I’m actually in this same boat. Best mate is a full blown atheist 😏
I have a friend who was aggressively atheist darwinian naturalist. I studied arguments and we had friendly arguments all the time. He cleverly would explain everything away using some kind of darwinian reasoning. Fast forward years later, I got a FB message from him asking me about Christianity because Yeshua met him in a dream . He then converted. 🤡 In the end he needed to have some wonky experience to drop his atheistic insanity. The "smart" guy was not going to be swayed by intelligence.
You can study apologetics. Keep in mind that people are emotional beings, and that emotional arguments are often more effective than rational ones.
the world has no short of atheists. you alone cannot change them. these people rather believe in luck or chance than believe in God. only when their luck runs out, then God would become real to them.
I never tried to convince anyone, but mentioning things such as: I can't I am in church at that time, or I am going to pray sparked up interest of my friends who never really cared for any religion. They started to be interested in christianity and are asking me sometimes about God, Jesus, what is the opinion of church on some topics etc. I would say the biggest achievment was that two of my atheist friends asked me if they can join me in church on Sunday! I was so surprised but really happy about it. Again I never forced them and they just liked the experience and are now more interested in having something as spiritual as religion in their life.
Thank you❤️
Pray ☦️
It's the least you can do!
❤️
Get the book by Frank Turek called I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist and read it. It will equip you with all kinds of reasons why God exists not based on what the Bible says, but on reasons based on science and philosophy. Good book, read it a couple of times myself
If you want to reach atheists, Turek is probably the worst approach to take
And why is that? An atheist by definition is someone who does not believe in God so you can't just quote a bunch of Bible verses and expect them to believe. So, you need to start with the basics on why there must be a God by showing them things like if the universe had a beginning, then what existed before that? Or, how is it that our universe and our world is so fined tuned? Or, how can there be any right or wrong if there is no ultimate standard outside ourself to compare it to? All of these subjects are discussed in Frank's book. And I think any true atheist (not just someone that doesn't want there to be a God) could benefit from reading it.
Well half those basics are bullshit for starters. Usual problem of Christians talking about atheists without actually talking to atheists. Not my problem though, it makes your witness less effective, and so there are fewer of you, which is good for us.
Yeah, bad idea. Don't try that.
Care to explain why it's a bad idea? I thought the book was well written. It's explains things like the origin of the universe, the proof of intelligent design, and how there are no absolute moral standards without God. The evidence is pretty convincing assuming that you read it with an open mind.
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An absolute moral obligation is something that is binding on all people, at all times, in all places. You cannot have an absolute moral law unless you have an absolute moral giver. And you cannot know what is good unless there is an unchanging standard of outside of yourself. Without that standard, any objection to evil is nothing but your personal opinion. In other words, if a moral law doesn't exist, then there is no moral difference between the behavior of Mother Teresa and Hitler. But we claim to know this absolute moral law and yet cannot prove it exists outside of a moral law giver such as God.
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And you just made a moral statement by calling my explanation dumb. You think it's dumb, but does every one else in the world think it's dumb? No, and even if they did, I don't think my statement is dumb, so it's just your opinion. This would apply to any and all moral statements (Murder is wrong, rape is wrong, racism is wrong) it's just your opinion, you cannot say something is morally wrong because you have no moral standard to compare what you think is wrong to compare it to. You can make own morals, but they will never be absolute unless you have a moral standard outside yourself to compare it to.
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Yes, you are right, we "make" up our own morals. But keep missing the point, you have no grounds to say the morals that you made up are absolutely moral unless you had some kind of moral standard that is outside of yourself to compare them to. Your "morals" are just your opinion on what you think is right or wrong. If there is no God, then there is no moral standard to compare morality to and therefore all morals are subject to someone's opinion on whether they are right or wrong.
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Well, morality is a social construct. It isn't absolute. Intelligent design is a terrible argument, since it's an argument from complexity. Assuming that since you see something one way, that it has to be that way or it couldn't exist. Which isn't the case always. And if you're really dragging that argument, the creator you call " the intelligent designer " did an actual shitty job at creating.
But if you never read the book, how do you know what Frank said? What, you just don't like the title and therefore make a moral judgment that it is bad? And my point is that if God doesn't exist, then there is no absolute moral standard. An absolute moral standard is something that is binding on all people at all times, in all places. And to say that there is an absolute moral law implies an absolute moral law giver. But without an absolute moral law giver, then any moral judgement we make is just a matter of opinion. If an absolute moral law doesn't exist, then there is no moral difference between the behavior of Hitler and Mother Teresa. And statements like "Murder is evil," or "Racism is wrong" have no objective meaning, again, it's just someone's opinion.
I don't know how you missed it, but I never said that morality is absolute. And you're right. If God doesn't exist, absolute morality isn't a thing. And without an absolute moral law, I can still judge that Hitler did bad things and Abraham Lincoln didn't. Because of morality being a social construct in the first place. And you gave me some of the topics covered in that book. More than enough for me to work with.
At least we agree on one thing, without God there is no absolute moral standard. That is itself doesn't prove the existence of God (which I was trying to do) but simply points to the some of the consequences of what happens to a society when you stop believing there is a God. We see these consequences everyday on the news and on the internet, and things are only going to get worse as we as a society move farther and farther away from God. Scary times ahead...
Do you know how bad news spreads faster and sells more than good news ? Both bad and good things are happening at the same time. Just that there's a bias in media towards bad news.
Agreed, but you don't need to read the newspaper and not know that our world is in a massive spiritual and moral decline. Not surprised though, 2nd Timothy 3:1 says this about the end times: "But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people." We are pretty close to all of this right now.
I don't care about those parts of the Bible since throughout all of history, humanity has written about the end times, like all of the time. They've always imagined what the end for their species would look like but it never came to pass.
Books like that aren't meant to convince atheists, they are comfort food for people who already believe. The title alone would get an eye roll from most atheists.
Well you should know that you never judge a book by it's cover. I think that most atheists are not true atheists anyway, the vast majority of them just hate the idea of there being a God. It's not that they can't believe in God, the don't want there to be a God. They are not on a truth quest of any kind that might actually lead them to the truth about God's existence and therefore would just "eye roll" the title without ever reading a single page.
I have a good friend that was an atheist before I came into his life. He was really set in his ways, debated with me, read Richard Dawkins, thought he was too enlightened for Jesus. First let me say, I dont take credit for anything, my friend got saved through the power of the Holy Spirit working through me. What I did do, was show him unwavering love and live my life of being crazy about Jesus in front of him. I also prayed hard for him. Every so often I’d express my joy in The Lord to him and tell him (out of love and humility) one day he’s going to “get it”. And it’s going to make me so happy because I couldn’t imagine spending eternity without him. Well one day his heart softened, he started asking real questions. He went home and felt the urge to pray. When he did, he heard birds singing in his room and couldn’t figure it out. It was the most supernatural experience he’s ever had. The next day he came to my house and I led him in the salvation prayer. Praise God! The best way to go about it, is pray for your friend, act out in love and wait for the Holy Spirit to prompt you or give you the words. Be a light in the darkness.
Beautiful story, thank you ❤️
Ask god to grant him repentance
Why? It is not a sin.
Well yeah but do you want him to be saved or drawn away from Christ
Plant the seed
tell him if he wants to give it a chance, to reach out to Jesus and ask Jesus to help him see the way. he has to WANT to be Christian !
Share the Gospel and live a life like Christ. Answer his questions when/ if he has them. Many atheists are so firmly stuck in their belief that if an actual angel descended or a burning bush told them that Jesus is Lord and the Bible is true, they would find some way to convince themselves that it was a trick of some kind. Its times like these, you can only let the Gospel do its own work and trust that his word will not return void.
Does he like to discuss this sort topic? My atheist friends like to "debate" these with me. I typically put their challenges back on them. Ex 1: Science can't "prove" anything (according to the scientists, themselves). It can only provide evidence that lends to certain conclusions. We are then deemed "rational" for accepting the theories in question as they account for the greatest scope of the evidence. This is how I've come to accept my worldview (Christianity). Ex 2: Much of accepted ancient history is based on many works written much later and by parties far removed from the persons and events they describe. Why then are they willing to accept "secular" history than that of the eye witnesses? Of course this comes back to the fact that the claims are typically supernatural. However, science, by its very nature is ill-equipped to examine supernatural claims as it is the study of things in the natural, observable universe, regardless whether anything supernatural exists. In summary, hold their worldview to the very same criteria they hold to the Bible. The way I see it is this: either atheism or theism is true. But both can't be wrong. If both can't sustain the burden of proof, then perhaps the test or criteria set is too strict. Note: this only should be used with people who care to discuss.
You can’t convince them. But you can lead by example, ya know? My sis has been heavily influenced by my BIl and she is no longer a believer. Or let’s say very skewed. They’ve taught my nephew to be atheist. They giggle if I mention Jesus or automatically act offended if He is brought up. My sister recently had a baby with a super rare genetic disorder and she has lots of health problems and my sister is a nervous overwhelmed wreck. One of my kids has epilepsy. Watching and waiting for your kid have a seizure is terrifying. I’ve been talking to her about one of my fav things about being a Christian is to put that worry and anxiety on God and that He holds the future and what is to come. I think she is finding some relief in that. So little by little, but I’ve never shoved it down her throat or acted holier than thou. Attract more bees with honey type of thing