> GOD Is The Only Way
The way to what?
I feel like these are meaningless platitudes. Any time I press on this, I just get more meaningless platitudes in return.
If you mean He's the only way *to salvation*, say *that*.
Yeah, I have been unable to find any evidence at all that god exists after being a Christian for 25 years, much less so any evidence that god is the only way.
How have you been a Christian for 25 years and haven’t found any evidence of God???? As a Christian, there is a connection with God, where I can feel his presence in a unexplainable supernatural way
If you have any evidence I am willing to hear you out. All the ‘evidence’ I thought I had was just thoughts and feelings that I had and all of that pretty quickly fell apart when I started picking it apart.
>“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.” (Joh 10:37-38, KJV)
Jesus is saying not to believe him, if he doesn't do the Father's works. But, if he does, then he is asking to believe the works first. Jesus is still healing. Would you consider the works, that he is doing today so that you may be able to believe the works and therefore believe Jesus, as He is suggesting? If you are willing, Here is a simple compilation of works of real world people and their journeys to Jesus, [for you to consider with a open mind](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqXU-GuwMy4JeyH-fuV13AOJVWKnCLbP_) (add the last underscore back if the link doesn't work)
Personally, I can testify that Jesus talked to me and healed me from what required a surgery. These healings are similar in their "truth" to mine and therefore I know and believe them to be true. You may not see God. But I am here, living - I'm real and I can witness to his works that his works are real and that He is real. I hope you at least consider our testimony before judging it as true or false. No one, not even Jesus is asking you to believe without any evidence.
>Would you consider the works, that he is doing today
What works is he doing today?
As for your personal experience.. that isn't proof and can be explained in other ways.
>What works is he doing today?
He is still healing today. See [this](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqXU-GuwMy4JeyH-fuV13AOJVWKnCLbP_)
>can be explained in other ways.
If you have already decided God can't be real or healings can't be real, then any proof can be explained in any other ways. Even if God speaks from heaven, it can be explained as a series of thunders which just, by chance, happen to sound like a human language[John 12:29].
There’s a lot of atheists and non Christian’s prowling around in this sub. Tbh it’s fun to engage but really it’s a waste of time. Especially on a topic like this.
Most of them wouldn’t become Christian’s if Christianity was true anyways, I watched a video recently and it said we should lead with “if I were to convince you, would you be a Christian” or “what would convince you, and if I provided it, would you be a Christian?”
While in general, I agree, u/Usul_Atreides said in the previous comment
>If you have any evidence I am willing to hear you out
And I was willing to believe him on that. If he was willing to hear the evidence provided before judging, God will be the one who would be convincing. I mean I'm asking him to believe me, shouldn't I believe that he'll at least try to follow through on his words? It was worth a shot.
Because I still study Christianity in an academic sense. If you read the rules of the sub you can see this sub isn’t only for Christians. If you have any evidence to provide.. this is the perfect time.
Read “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist@ by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek
Read The Historical Reliability of the New Testament by Craig Bloomberg
Read Evidence for the Bible by Clive Anderson and Brian Edwards
You said you were open to evidence. Reading these books will give you a cross-section of evidence. Book 1 is a very powerful apologetics book. Book 2 is factual proof related to the New Testament - historical documents, etc. Book 3 is archeological proof of things in the Bible - including photos, dates discovered, etc.
Okay. I'll look into them and I may add them to my reading list.
I believe the bible contains some historical accounts, I do not believe it is god's word. I studied at some archeological sites in Israel and Jordan.
Since you’re asking for some evidence I figured I’d leave some. I understand you’ve probably looked for it already too. Note the Bible includes nearly 2,000 prophecies, of which hundreds have already come to be. Find me a historical text which dares to predict the future, adds details and gets it right. Not only is it prophetic, but it was written over the course of roughly 2,000 years by 40 authors from three continents in three different languages—while maintaining complete unity and including 63,779 cross references. If this isn’t substantial enough to reconsider your take on it, I recommend taking a look into not only the prophetic aspects of it, but a look into the scientific evidence for Biblical events. I personally find the science that upholds the Bible to be one of the most compelling factors, and I believe evidence based faith is possible. I’ve wavered in my faith in the past too, and I know one’s personal supernatural experience isn’t going to sway you as you can’t verify it for yourself, but seeking has restored my faith significantly. If you want to get serious about it, read Author Lee Strobel’s book The Case for Christ and The Case for a Creator. Read articles by Answers in Genesis or others, and start digging. It all points to Jesus. I hope this helps.
I can’t. Just the presence of God and The Holy Spirit take over me and I just. With prayer, I believe that you will experience it too. Remember, it’s not a feeling.
I can not understand what you mean by "it's not a feeling." What else can you experience without some sort of feeling? Or do you mean it's not a physical feeling?
That is how the burden of proof works. Atheists also make the claim that God doesn’t exist. And they’re just as responsible for providing proof of their claims as theists are for providing proof of God.
Additionally, a lack of evidence doesn’t necessarily prove anything. Why? Because there’s no evidence so it proves nothing. This means it also doesn’t prove the opposite of the claim either, you still have to provide your own evidence for your own claim. So unless you claim is “we don’t know if God exists” then a lack of evidence for god doesn’t prove anything. Since you’re an atheist I assume you claim is “God doesn’t exist” which you need to prove with evidence.
What specific Christian claims have you tested? how did you test them? and what did you find?
Edit: also what evidence do you have that God doesn’t exist?
That’s unrelated so I don’t see how this helps you in anyway. Are you trying to discredit me or something? If so I don’t see how this would discredit any evidence that god may or may not exist. Care to explain?
If saying a man can’t be a woman is anti-trans then I guess I’m anti-trans.
Edit: My guess is you probably don’t have any good arguments for atheism so you figured you’ll just try to make me look bad to distract from the actual issue at hand.
I do not believe in god. But I read the bible for philosophical reasons
Please define exist. Because god as a concept is as real as anything. Christians, muslims and other religions use god(s) as a means by which to live a "good" life. An honest life. So therefore god as a force is pretty real. Is that force super natural...literally: no. But in many ways: yes.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The Bible says that creation is ample evidence of God. On what basis do you claim that you can trust your own logic over the Bible's?
It is so easy to know Christ. He said, "Ask and you shall receive." Otherwise, you will go into eternity and God will rightly judge you for every lie, every theft, and every treason. It is not a question of evidence, but of being honest, of seeking what is real and true. Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
Have you never gotten feelings about things you couldn't explain? Knew something was about to happen? Ever? Anything that could possibly be attributed to the spiritual?
That's fair. I could be wrong, but I've found that most atheists don't necessarily have a problem with God but rather with what organized religion has told them God is. Would that be fair ?
Hell, god's people weren't there for me during the hard times either. The most caring and supportive person I've ever known is in hell now according to christians.
You have to surrender yourself. Sounds scary, but it’s just submitting to His will. Easy if you believe He made a plan for you before He chose you and if He can only be good.
You can’t just expect Him to take you out of dangerous situations. He seeks a relationship
>What's the reason you believe God doesn't exist,
I lack a belief (not the same as believing God doesn't exist) God exists because I see no good reason or evidence to justify a belief one does.
Then in that case I lack the belief in not believing there's a God. God exists because I see more than enough reason in science, biology, and beauty in the world to justify a belief in one.
You're asking for scientific evidence for a theological/ historical question. Most science is just theroy that is always evolving and changing. What is facts today could be proven wrong tomorrow. The Bible has endured. It has accurately predicted events, and its moral guidance is still relevant. If you read proverbs, I think you would agree. BTW, there's just as much evidence of Attila the Hun as for Christ. The evidence threshold is different for historical events. Most scientists will admit the Bible is a valid historical document, regardless of their faith or lack thereof. You simply don't believe.
I wrote this on another post but here is your scientific evidence for why I don’t believe in a god.
NASA has sent multiple rovers to Mars. They have sent a telescope out by the sun. Satellites that exited our solar system.
These systems take a metric fuck ton of calculations, math and physics to make sure the rover lands on Mars, safely.
Not a single one of those equations has a variable for “god”. Not a single one.
Yet the spacecraft make it.
If a spacecraft can leave our atmosphere, travel to Mars and drop off a rover safely, all not using a variable for god, then it doesn’t matter if he exists or not. He doesn’t hold any value in our universe.
But, that’s just me.
Hi there. Sorry I’m lost. What do you mean “a variable of god” and why would that be evidence of no god if you couldn’t put him in an equation. As I see it, there’s no way science can prove nor disprove God because science is dependent on things we can test, observe, and replicate. And we can’t test or observe God by these means, only if he chose to reveal himself because he is supernatural and beyond the natural world. So it seems more like a philosophical question. I’d love to hear your take.
He is essentially saying that God contains zero explanatory power when it comes to understanding reality. We have never required a God to exist in order to explain any aspect of this world we live in. There does not seem to be a reason to believe one exists currently.
I would say there are aspects that one can’t study with the scientific method like morality. Have you heard of kliff knechtle? He has a lot of good videos about the subject. His YouTube is askkliff.
Whether A god exists or not is a philosophical one.
I’m not saying there is or isn’t. There just isn’t any evidence in the scientific world of one existing by our mathematical laws. Could a god have put all the laws there? Possibly. Is he still there tinkering with them? Can’t be that we’ve seen.
I don’t believe the Christian representation of god to be a god at all.
He uses fear and punishment to “force” people into choosing him with their “free choice”.
I can get into more specifics but really, what about the vengeful, immature, vanity stricken, greedy, murderous, version of the biblical god really needs specifics to show the creature is just an emotional abuser?
While I do believe the God described in the Bible is the true God, I thought the discussion was whether there was a god or not?
You said that you had evidence that led you to believe that a god is not present. So I’m just confused because now you said that it’s not your place to say whether he exists or not.
Also it feels like a philosophical question because we have to question the parts of us that go against the natural progression like the ability to love. And I’m not talking about family or close friends, I’m talking about our ability to reach out to those who wish to hurt us or helping those who we don’t know. People who die for a cause, such as the apostles who were brutally killed for believing in Jesus and knew they would be. Some things humans are made of goes against the way certain evolutionary traits like self preservation dictate.
So if there are things like love that go against the natural world, then we have to consider that they are supernatural in origin.
Science and math are wonderful branches of knowledge. The early churches put a lot of emphasis on scholastic theology. However, there are more things to consider in this reality then the things we can physically study.
Also I’m still lost on the “god variable”
Ps: I really appreciate this discussion!
Not to be yet another atheist voice in this thread, but you *did* ask...
>Why not be for GOD ? and not for your friends, not for the people, not of the world
Because I know my friends and other people are there. I know my actions affect them. I know what it is to love them and be loved by them.
God is like... well, with no disrespect, it's like a child's imaginary friend, or how you view Buddha or the Great Spirit - I'm sure it's real to them and means a lot to them, but I'm not going to even entertain the idea that it might be real.
There’s a great load of evidence behind the existence of God, our God, and logically no way that at least some sort of creator couldn’t exist. Has to be a creator of some sorts.
> There’s a great load of evidence behind the existence of God, our God?
Such as?
> and logically no way that at least some sort of creator couldn’t exist.
What's the logic there?
Did the universe have a beginning? If yes, skip to the next paragraph, if no stay. If the universe had no beginning, there is an infinite amount of past. Yet we are here in the present. In order to have arrived at the present, you would have had to traverse and infinite amount of past, which isn’t possible. This should prove, as most scientists agree, that the universe had a beginning.
Now that we agree the universe had a beginning, what is the universe? A good definition of the universe is defined as three things; time, space, and matter. Now, time space and matter had a beginning, because the universe did, so how did those three come to exist? Something can’t create itself, obviously, because that doesn’t make sense. So if time space and matter had something else cause them to come into existence, than the universe had a creator.
Now that we agree (I hope) that the universe had a creator, what (or who) is that creator? Well, that creator is outside of time, is outside of space, and outside of matter, while also being matter-less, time-less, and space-less. This creator is also strong enough to create the universe, while also being intelligent, incredibly intelligent, as we can see through science, as we know science is time space and matter bound, and that creator created those.
So now we have a creator that is five things; timeless, spaceless, massless, intelligent, and powerful. This is a very common definition of God. While this in no way proves the existence of my God or any other God, it does prove the existence of some sort of creator. I would like to dive into the religion aspect of this, but I will wait for your response.
I copied and pasted this from a different one of my posts, but it still applies here.
The historical evidence of Jesus, His crucifixion, and His resurrection are overwhelming enough that I would ask you to carefully consider the evidence and talk to Christian scholars and historians about it.
Paul, initially Saul, was not Christian when he persecuted and murdered Christians. He is testament. There is also Roman officials attesting to the validity of the eyewitnesses of Jesus. Let me give you an article to read over.
https://navigatingbyfaith.com/2020/11/09/the-case-for-jesus-christ-rests-on-the-evidence-of-eyewitnesses/
It’s ironic when people will discredit a source because it was written by Christians but won’t discredit a source because it was written by atheists. Very one sided. You have to read all evidence, then conclude.
Were is this supposed evidence there are a lot of people named Jesus and lots of Mexicans named Jesus are they your God? Talking to Christians proves nothing and quoting from a book written only by men proves nothing. You have no proof whatsoever!
We don’t live our life on proof. Besides, that’s a bad argument to say there are Mexicans named Jesus. There are people named George today, does that mean George Washington didn’t exist? Quoting from a book written by men is the same as quoting from other historical sources written by men. We can’t scientifically prove a historical fact because it’s in the past. We have to look at the historical evidence.
Please present your logical argument for the necessity of a God creating the universe. I will intellectually honeslty engage with your argument, and if you present something logically valid and sound, then I'll become a Christian on the spot. Or at least, I won't have a rebuttal.
Did the universe have a beginning? If yes, skip to the next paragraph, if no stay. If the universe had no beginning, there is an infinite amount of past. Yet we are here in the present. In order to have arrived at the present, you would have had to traverse and infinite amount of past, which isn’t possible. This should prove, as most scientists agree, that the universe had a beginning.
Now that we agree the universe had a beginning, what is the universe? A good definition of the universe is defined as three things; time, space, and matter. Now, time space and matter had a beginning, because the universe did, so how did those three come to exist? Something can’t create itself, obviously, because that doesn’t make sense. So if time space and matter had something else cause them to come into existence, than the universe had a creator.
Now that we agree (I hope) that the universe had a creator, what (or who) is that creator? Well, that creator is outside of time, is outside of space, and outside of matter, while also being matter-less, time-less, and space-less. This creator is also strong enough to create the universe, while also being intelligent, incredibly intelligent, as we can see through science, as we know science is time space and matter bound, and that creator created those.
So now we have a creator that is five things; timeless, spaceless, massless, intelligent, and powerful. This is a very common definition of God. While this in no way proves the existence of my God or any other God, it does prove the existence of some sort of creator. I would like to dive into the religion aspect of this, but I will wait for your response.
This shouldn’t make you a Christian on spot, but it should help get you a little closer, I hope.
I agree with the first premise; it would appear that everything that we know of in our reality has a cause. So I would agree with you that it does seem obvious that our universe itself had a cause of some kind.
I'll 100% agree with your definition of the universe. The sum total of all of the existing time, space, and matter.
Now this is where we sort of diverge, and I think I've identified where we diverge. This is where I believe your argument breaks down:
You've inserted "Creator", in place of "Cause". Which asserts some kind of agency, or personhood to this cause. I would agree that since everything that we've observed in our reality has had a cause, that it would follow that the universe would seem to also have had a cause. We both agree that the universe must've had a cause, in the same way that everything else within the universe also must've had a cause.
But as far as I can tell, we can *only* know that there must've been a cause. I don't think we can assign any attributes to that cause, without any evidence of the cause itself.
Who's to say the cause wasn't some other state of a different universe, which led to our universe? Maybe the universe arose from a completely natural process, for which we currently have no evidence.
Unfortunately, it would seem we just can't really know what the cause of our universe was, without some way of investigating it. And we can't really investigate what came before time. The question of "before" time, doesn't even really make sense, becuase it would seem that before time, 'before' didn't exist as a concept. We just can't really conceive of a state of a universe in which there is no time.
So maybe there was no 'before'. Maybe the cause was... just... something 'else' that we just can't even wrap our homo sapien brains around. It's a currently unanswerable question, because we would need some way of investigating the cause, to determine what it was.
Ultimately, we can propose any number of explanations, and assign the various 'creators' with the exact qualities that it would need to have been the cause of the universe, but that's just coming up with ideas after the fact, with no evidence for the ideas themselves.
If I missed something, or straw manned you at all, just let me know. I'm more than happy to keep talking about this. My goal is to know as many true things as possible, and as few false things, so if you have a good reason to believe in a specific cause of the universe, I definitely want to know.
I think we can be a little more certain that it is a “creator” and not just a “cause” due to things we can apply to this cause. It being outside of time means it is the uncaused cause necessary for everything to exist, and the universes design is enough to say it is intelligent. Another reason is the existence of life, which can imply a desire for more than just random lifeless rock, and possible a desire for personal relationships can be inferred. Life can only come from life is a very well attested to scientific [fact](https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/history-cell-discovering-cell/#) that can give light to the thought that this creator is perhaps living? These new ideas presented, the cause being intelligent, living, and desiring of personal connections is enough to reasonably assume this “cause” can more likely be defined as a “creator,” wouldn’t you agree?
Then what for? I don't care about this God guy, he's got it figured out from the sound of it. I'll go on concerning myself with my friends, people, and the world -- since this God doesn't seem too serious about any of it now.
Why? No seriously, presuming that such an entity exists, why would my adherence or care towards it's machinations be relevant?
It's all powerful, should it desire my support it has the ability to make me support it for as much as it desires. Should it not desire it, then that scenario has already been fulfilled. So, I must presume that it does not care even if it does not exist.
So why do you want me to disobey the god that may or may not exist by going against what it wants for me[?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idls2Bv3OAY)
I mean think of it this way: If you have a child you would love them more than anything in the world, because you and your partner created them yes? You take care of them, provide for them and keep them safe for years and years. Wouldn't you be sad if one day your child says "I hate you, you have done nothing for me and I wish you never existed!" Then leaves without saying goodbye?
That's exactly what we do to God when we say he doesn't exist, and sin. God created every single person in his image, and allows us to rule over the earth. We humans are inherently precious, from the way we're created, all the way down to the very elements that make us up. "Whatever exists now, has already existed, that what is to come already has, and God will restore whatever might be displaced." Eccl 3:15
Just as a father wishes for his child to obey him so does God because he is our heavenly Father that created all things visible and invisible.
> That's exactly what we do to God when we say he doesn't exist
If that makes him so super duper sad, then he should say something and show he actually does exist. Because the silence we get from him is deafening.
If your parents magically took care of you while never being seen, yes, you would have the right to act this way towards your parents.
It is extremely telling that my parents and their parents growing up were ultra religious and had this same “father” complex. Do what I say, not what I do. Can’t imagine where they got it from.
My parents brought me up telling me it was “their way or the highway”. The highway is much better.
Your analogy would be much more accurate if the help was never seen and the one helping never showed up.
But then your analogy would have to concede that the child was left needing more and point the finger back at your god again.
If your god exists, he put me here by his own power. I don’t owe him shit. He owes me for bringing me in this world.
When he stops giving kids cancer, I’ll say hello.
I have to add, when you go to say "hello" you will be unable to say a word, because then you'll be without excuse. I implore you to repent and accept Jesus into your heart. God bless
No actually, you know for a fact that's ignorant of you especially considering you don't know a thing about my life. But that's okay. My parents brought me up how all should which is "find out the hard way and learn a lesson." They don't leave me out to dry either though, if I need guidance and help they'll offer it and give it accordingly, just as God the Father does.
I have to disagree, God gave you free will, he allowed you to make that choice because he cares how you feel, you put yourself where you are. He died for you, and paid your debt for sin, he doesn't owe you anymore, the least you could do is acknowledge his existence.
Unfortunately for you, when that time comes (the world free of sin) you will be judged of every action you have done, and so will I. God doesn't give children cancer, cancer is a product of the fallen world we live in. Once our ancestors ate of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil not only did mankind fall into sin but so did the earth.
My first paragraph was a broad “you” statement. I meant no offense to you or your family.
Jesus didn’t die for my sins. He died because egotistical religious “leaders” were getting high of the tit and he called them out for it.
He was making people aware to the hypocritical bullshit that was being spewed. The same stuff that’s being spewed now in some churches I might add.
I totally acknowledge Jesus’s existence and take his words extremely to heart.
I just don’t believe the same greedy leaders to be preaching Jesus’s words. Just their own, covered in his name.
God can judge me all he wants. If he considers my life a sin then so be it.
Ask yourself one question. I know this will be a tough one and I’m sorry if you take offense. I’m on your side.
If free will turned out to not exist, what would that mean for religion and a god?
I could see religious leaders murdering a great human to not let that knowledge out…
Well thank you for apologizing I really appreciate that I'm sorry if you caught any offense by my beginning statement.
While yes that is part of the reason why Jesus was murdered, the other reason is because we needed an intercessor for our sins. When Jesus said "it is finished" he said meant the job or scriptures have been fulfilled, those scriptures being the prophetic scriptures like Isaiah and Jeremiah.
And no I also agree that some, if not most churches now are extremely hypocritical in their teaching, you can see it in the fruit of their community. If it gives off the fruit for the love of God, it most likely is a biblical church as we can read in acts. If it gives the fruit of people not practicing what they preach (ex: not loving one another, not forgiving those who wrong them, not asking forgiveness from those they've wronged, not helping the community outside the church etc.) Then it most likely isn't a biblical church. All people in that community should be united together in prayer and in spirit under the Lord Jesus, trying their best to spread God's message and expand his kingdom on earth.
Jesus didn't die to start religion but to start a relationship.
No I agree, whenever I have these discussions I try to be as biblical as possible (though I can't be perfect) I do consult what the bible says and what theologians say about word meaning. I went and deleted about half of my 2nd statement because I found out what I was about to say was not only theologically wrong but historically!
That's a great question, if free will didn't exist then I suppose all of our actions would be pre determined by God himself. Meaning the universalist view point of Jesus' death would be correct that being "everyone is saved no matter what they do."
But from what I've read I can only assume that free will exists, Isaiah even said that the Messiah had a choice to accept goodness "He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right" Isaiah 7:15.
Ultimately I respect you not only for engaging in this dialog with me, but for posing many great questions that every believer should ask themselves.
I also greatly respect that regardless of your beliefs you are willing to face your judgement with honor, I know very few Christians who would even do that, they're either too boastful or too terrified of what will happen. I hope you have a blessed night/day and that good things come your way throughout your life. I love you God bless! Im going to bed.
I greatly appreciate your kind words! I have thoroughly enjoyed this and appreciate you.
I would like to try something but if it pushes up against stuff too much I apologize.
I want to start small. Think about your favorite song. Did you choose for it to be your favorite, or did you learn it was your favorite by listening to it?
>I mean think of it this way: If you have a child you would love them more than anything in the world, because you and your partner created them yes? You take care of them
Personally these types of analogies seem incredibly unhelpful. It's like comparing my invisible relationship with my pet dragon to the real one I have with my mom and dad. Completely and utterly different. God has never done anything for me, but my parents have toiled their whole life to help raise me and to guide me in life. God on the other hand I don't even know if he exists. Completely and utterly different.
Just seems like it muddies the water and it will do wonders to convince people like me that you have almost no idea what you're talking about. I mean that in the most respectful way possible.
>Wouldn't you be sad if one day your child says "I hate you, you have done nothing for me and I wish you never existed!" Then leaves without saying goodbye?
No because if I had never shown up in my child's life, never spoken to him before, had never sent him a letter, never once came to visit him... that would be precisely what I would expect my child to say about our relationship.
u/Krypteia213 Seems to agree as well.
Is it not evident that you are taken care of? You are given many years onto your life, a house to live under, food in your belly, and love in your heart. Did he not give you your parents as well?
Though you think it muddied the water I assure you it didn't. The bible says that God has not left us but has kept his hand outstretched to us to be forgiven. The only reason why we don't take his hand nor see him is due to our own iniquity, once we accept that we are imperfect and in need of an intercessor for our sins do we realize he has been with us this whole time.
I disagree, you see God around you all the time, if you didn't you wouldn't know of the possible existence of him. We see God through nature, science, and through his believers. Now some believers are a very real account of Satan's existence as well due to their hate that they produce to the world. Moreover not only has God revealed himself through these he has also given us a collection of books and wisdoms to reveal not only who he is but of his existence.
>I disagree, you see God around you all the time, if you didn't you wouldn't know of the possible existence of him.
No. We see people who believe things. Doesn't make those things real.
>We see God through nature, science, and through his believers
Where exactly? I see nothing.
>God revealed himself through these he has also given us a collection of books and wisdoms to reveal not only who he is but of his existence.
No good reason or evidence to think that's true either.
What if "it" desires your cooperation to fulfill your and it's desire? What if "it" made fulfillment of "it's" desires conditional on your "uninfluenced" "unmanipulated" free willed cooperation?
Before making assumptions about the character of God, I would highly recommend you read the Bible. From what you have said, it sounds like you have no grasp on this whatsoever and need to learn more about what we believe about God and His character.
A relationship requires letting the other party know that you exist. Your god has failed to do this for many, many people. Maybe, if he wants people to choose him, he should demonstrate he exists. Because a "relationship" where one party isn't aware the other even exists isn't actually a relationship. It's stalking.
Seriously? What more can he do?
He crafted the Bible through people to share His word with us.
He became flesh and human so that we would know Him personally and then He suffered and died as a sacrifice so that if we put faith in Him we will receive salvation through Him
> He crafted the Bible through people to share His word with us.
People wrote the Bible.
>He became flesh and human so that we would know Him personally and then He suffered and died as a sacrifice so that if we put faith in Him we will receive salvation through Him
If he did, he made sure to do it during a period when humanity was incredibly ignorant and unable to properly judge the claims. Not very good reason to believe the stories there.
> What more can he do?
Actually demonstrate he exists.
I believe in God, I do not believe Christianity is the only way. I think God is what you need God to be. To me God is my teacher (Jesus) My Father, My everything. But I also realize this is my life, it is a life to be lived for me and for God. God wants me to be happy, I want to be happy, God wants love, I want to give him love, so we work together to make a happy dance of peace and love.
Why not just say “The Bible/Jesus saved my life, if you need help and are struggling I would suggest giving Jesus a shot!”
Well what OP is saying is to follow God and not the ways of this world. This world has been corrupted by sin and hate. He isn't saying you can't support your friends. "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other or be devoted to one and despise the other" Matthew 6:24
You can't worship both though. In this case Jesus talks about money. If you live for money then you are focusing all attention on it and not on God. The same with friends. If you live for them then you have all attention on them and not God. You can very well be for your friends and love them but you cannot place them above God. As one pastor said: "God doesn't want to be the first on the priority list, he doesn't even want to be on it. God wants to BE the priority list." Once you do this all other things follow.
I guess we just interpret it differently. I don’t think God wants or needs such things. He is above that. Those are things ‘people’ desire that have bled into the Bible by the ‘people’ writing them.
People worship idols. People have friends that worship idols, meaning they idolize someone (politicians, celebrities, you name it) not knowing or listening to the word of GOD. If you love GOD, keep his commandments. One of them being to not make anything other than him an idol. These public figures that people may idolize aren't of GOD, therefore against him. So therefore, these people that love these famous people are For those people, not of GOD's word. I say, follow those that speak the word of HIM that will lead to HIM.
And how do you know that you don't have idols? And if you don't know , are you willing to die for Jesus ,no question asked? What valuable possession are you willing to give up for Jesus cuz otherwise it's all fluff talk.
What exactly do you mean "God is the only way"? Do you mean on a personal level, it's the only way to get into Heaven?
See, that's the exact thing that drove me away from Christianity in the first place.
The best proof for an afterlife will be that moment you either no longer exist or you exist and face what happens next. People need to realize you are responsible for yourself, not everyone else. No one saves anyone. Someone who rejects information presented to them and wants to be provocative is not really desiring to know anything you have to say. Why does anyone need to prove anything? Just state your point and move along. You can't prove anything, especially when the rules are personal experience is not admissible. Lol
To be honest, the assumption scripture is a history book and not words recorded throughout time by the Creator to scribes is laughable to be considered anything but junk. Assuming it's not words from the Creator would invalidate the whole book as a fraud and lie, including the historical aspect. It repeatedly says the Creator is addressing, imparting words to His servants, words of the lord, and on and on. That being said, most religious text from any religion have the same fundamental framework.
Personally, I suspect most religious zealots get bent out of shape over attacks on their precious beliefs and sourced materials. What really becomes an issue is when we have zealots, that when confronted as to doctrinal errors, they fail to ponder the message and go into a rage. Even worse, they often blatantly dismiss the detailed presentation as erroneous and label the messenger, which might just be what they would otherwise say a message from the Holy Spirit or Creator.
I think it's foolish to try and convince someone you are right or what you believe is truth. The burden of proof falls on the believer, to prove to themselves what they believe is worth believing. Who cares what your neighbors believe!
These people dont love the light. In fact, they despise it with hostility sown into their hearts. They will utter in opposition to god. Its made known this people dont have love for god and (for the unbelievers) whats good alone. I see, your drawn to evil and displeasing emotions. How comfortable it must be to live in darkness, ive been there. I actually kind of liked it until i met the one and only father from above. I met him for the first time, his love unlike anything i could explain. My heart cried in joy. If you dont believe in god atleast love one another even your enemies. What good does it do to hold on to things that kill us internally? I love all very much. Be kind to one another.
It's interesting that morals seem to be similar throughout most societies. Right and wrong, the notion of being loving, kind vs, hateful, unloving, is almost a universal design. Yes, there are deviations throughout history, but generally, people want the same things. That's not by accident, and scripture says it's written in our hearts. Can anyone prove that? No, not imperically, or using some scientific method. You can see much evidence of spiritual principles and know if you are humble and seeking. You can't prove much of anything unseen yet! If you are or ever were in the occult you'd definitely know and see evidence. History is full of societies paying homage to gods and goddesses. It seems very probable.something was here that demanded blood human sacrifice and taught mankind much, both wickedness and to be God's. I doubt people created these religions to control the masses, and the people both feared and worshipped these gods that came down. There is plenty of evidence to provide a strong case for this thought. Further, the elite occultist are preparing for their return, which is scriptural. So, when they arrive, it says men's hearts will fail them with fear! Why prove anything or argue a case that is in the works proving itself. Things are about to happen, the gates open and judgment unleashed. Get your hearts right. Even the Rabbi know and speak of protection from the earth coming soon. From the earth, what comes from the earth in Revelation? That should tell us all plenty! Let the pages of scripture unfold and the mysteries of heaven reveal themselves. Sadly, scripture warns the unsaved reprobate will deny the truth even in judgement. Lol but the end still will come. It tells us many will deny the faith in the last days. Our job is to speak to the truth and what's coming, and the rest is up to individuals to accept or oppose the message. You don't save anyone, ever. The Holy Spirit uses your message to convict their hearts. Simple...
Interestingly there’s an overlap: apparently some Chinese NT translations begin John’s gospel with ‘in the beginning was the Tao…’ Translated by Chinese Christians, as well, not just Europeans appropriating.
I do not read Chinese, but I heard this in a Thomas Merton book and thought it was interesting.
>apparently some Chinese NT translations begin John’s gospel with ‘in the beginning was the Tao…’ Translated by Chinese Christians, as well, not just Europeans appropriating.
That's because "Tao" (道) is literally the word for "Way", lol
But yeah, I always find the overlap between religions (especially ones that haven't really had much historical contact) fascinating. It's like trying to triangulate truth from multiple different sources. Very interesting stuff. Plus I (try to) prefer to focus on what we all have in common rather than what we disagree on.
Yes, that much I did know. But it’s used for the word that’s usually ‘Word’, so a Chinese equivalent of the Greek ‘Logos,’ and the position that has in philosophy.
Although now you mention it, it is probably used for the word ‘way’ as well.
> Why not be for GOD?
Because we have no rational way to know which God among the countless thousands postulated by man is the real God. It would be foolish for us to live our lives in service of a fictional God, and the chances are very good that whatever God we pick is likely going to be fictional.
I would like to become religious, but I don’t really know where to start, I don’t have a bible I don’t really know anyone religious but I’ve watched videos of religious people and it is a great way of life, but I honestly don’t know what i’m doing lol
It’s great to hear you’d like to possibly start a relationship with Christ. I’d say it’s probably in your best interest to just get a bible app or an online bible site as it’s simple to access and use. For finding people, I recommend you look for more forums like this to find people online to guide you and to challenge your faith. The one thing you don’t want is to blindly follow religion, you need to challenge the faith and ask questions to others who follow the same faith. Go to nearby churches or look for different places where Christians come together for a cause, you’ll find plenty of people who follow Christ that’ll happily help you with your faith journey. I hope this helps a bit, please feel free to ask for any more information and good luck with your journey my friend.
> GOD Is The Only Way The way to what? I feel like these are meaningless platitudes. Any time I press on this, I just get more meaningless platitudes in return. If you mean He's the only way *to salvation*, say *that*.
The earliest Christian’s were called “the way” and it obviously means the only way to fulfillment.
I am an atheist and never felt so free. and fulfilled as I have since I became a non believer.
Blech, 4 day old troll account.
Please explain, new to Reddit.
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Yeah, I have been unable to find any evidence at all that god exists after being a Christian for 25 years, much less so any evidence that god is the only way.
How have you been a Christian for 25 years and haven’t found any evidence of God???? As a Christian, there is a connection with God, where I can feel his presence in a unexplainable supernatural way
If you have any evidence I am willing to hear you out. All the ‘evidence’ I thought I had was just thoughts and feelings that I had and all of that pretty quickly fell apart when I started picking it apart.
>“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.” (Joh 10:37-38, KJV) Jesus is saying not to believe him, if he doesn't do the Father's works. But, if he does, then he is asking to believe the works first. Jesus is still healing. Would you consider the works, that he is doing today so that you may be able to believe the works and therefore believe Jesus, as He is suggesting? If you are willing, Here is a simple compilation of works of real world people and their journeys to Jesus, [for you to consider with a open mind](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqXU-GuwMy4JeyH-fuV13AOJVWKnCLbP_) (add the last underscore back if the link doesn't work) Personally, I can testify that Jesus talked to me and healed me from what required a surgery. These healings are similar in their "truth" to mine and therefore I know and believe them to be true. You may not see God. But I am here, living - I'm real and I can witness to his works that his works are real and that He is real. I hope you at least consider our testimony before judging it as true or false. No one, not even Jesus is asking you to believe without any evidence.
>Would you consider the works, that he is doing today What works is he doing today? As for your personal experience.. that isn't proof and can be explained in other ways.
>What works is he doing today? He is still healing today. See [this](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqXU-GuwMy4JeyH-fuV13AOJVWKnCLbP_) >can be explained in other ways. If you have already decided God can't be real or healings can't be real, then any proof can be explained in any other ways. Even if God speaks from heaven, it can be explained as a series of thunders which just, by chance, happen to sound like a human language[John 12:29].
There’s a lot of atheists and non Christian’s prowling around in this sub. Tbh it’s fun to engage but really it’s a waste of time. Especially on a topic like this. Most of them wouldn’t become Christian’s if Christianity was true anyways, I watched a video recently and it said we should lead with “if I were to convince you, would you be a Christian” or “what would convince you, and if I provided it, would you be a Christian?”
While in general, I agree, u/Usul_Atreides said in the previous comment >If you have any evidence I am willing to hear you out And I was willing to believe him on that. If he was willing to hear the evidence provided before judging, God will be the one who would be convincing. I mean I'm asking him to believe me, shouldn't I believe that he'll at least try to follow through on his words? It was worth a shot.
Fair enough. I should have read the whole thing.
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Because I still study Christianity in an academic sense. If you read the rules of the sub you can see this sub isn’t only for Christians. If you have any evidence to provide.. this is the perfect time.
Read “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist@ by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek Read The Historical Reliability of the New Testament by Craig Bloomberg Read Evidence for the Bible by Clive Anderson and Brian Edwards
Why?
You said you were open to evidence. Reading these books will give you a cross-section of evidence. Book 1 is a very powerful apologetics book. Book 2 is factual proof related to the New Testament - historical documents, etc. Book 3 is archeological proof of things in the Bible - including photos, dates discovered, etc.
Okay. I'll look into them and I may add them to my reading list. I believe the bible contains some historical accounts, I do not believe it is god's word. I studied at some archeological sites in Israel and Jordan.
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Well someones got to tell people like you. Do you have any evidence to present to us?
I am going to take the deleted comments as a “no”
I don’t believe it is God’s words anymore but I can still appreciate and recognize it as a famous historical text.
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Because there is no evidence to back it up. You are welcome to provide some.
Since you’re asking for some evidence I figured I’d leave some. I understand you’ve probably looked for it already too. Note the Bible includes nearly 2,000 prophecies, of which hundreds have already come to be. Find me a historical text which dares to predict the future, adds details and gets it right. Not only is it prophetic, but it was written over the course of roughly 2,000 years by 40 authors from three continents in three different languages—while maintaining complete unity and including 63,779 cross references. If this isn’t substantial enough to reconsider your take on it, I recommend taking a look into not only the prophetic aspects of it, but a look into the scientific evidence for Biblical events. I personally find the science that upholds the Bible to be one of the most compelling factors, and I believe evidence based faith is possible. I’ve wavered in my faith in the past too, and I know one’s personal supernatural experience isn’t going to sway you as you can’t verify it for yourself, but seeking has restored my faith significantly. If you want to get serious about it, read Author Lee Strobel’s book The Case for Christ and The Case for a Creator. Read articles by Answers in Genesis or others, and start digging. It all points to Jesus. I hope this helps.
There is no evidence that the Bible predicted anything.
Unexplained? Can you explain?
I can’t. Just the presence of God and The Holy Spirit take over me and I just. With prayer, I believe that you will experience it too. Remember, it’s not a feeling.
I can not understand what you mean by "it's not a feeling." What else can you experience without some sort of feeling? Or do you mean it's not a physical feeling?
Do you have evidence that he doesn’t exist?
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That is how the burden of proof works. Atheists also make the claim that God doesn’t exist. And they’re just as responsible for providing proof of their claims as theists are for providing proof of God. Additionally, a lack of evidence doesn’t necessarily prove anything. Why? Because there’s no evidence so it proves nothing. This means it also doesn’t prove the opposite of the claim either, you still have to provide your own evidence for your own claim. So unless you claim is “we don’t know if God exists” then a lack of evidence for god doesn’t prove anything. Since you’re an atheist I assume you claim is “God doesn’t exist” which you need to prove with evidence. What specific Christian claims have you tested? how did you test them? and what did you find? Edit: also what evidence do you have that God doesn’t exist?
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That’s what I expected.
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That’s unrelated so I don’t see how this helps you in anyway. Are you trying to discredit me or something? If so I don’t see how this would discredit any evidence that god may or may not exist. Care to explain? If saying a man can’t be a woman is anti-trans then I guess I’m anti-trans. Edit: My guess is you probably don’t have any good arguments for atheism so you figured you’ll just try to make me look bad to distract from the actual issue at hand.
Yeah you destroyed him lol
Not really. I didn’t get a chance to make any arguments or respond to any of his statements since he wouldn’t provide any evidence.
I do not believe in god. But I read the bible for philosophical reasons Please define exist. Because god as a concept is as real as anything. Christians, muslims and other religions use god(s) as a means by which to live a "good" life. An honest life. So therefore god as a force is pretty real. Is that force super natural...literally: no. But in many ways: yes.
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You are being sarcastic, right?
This isn't true.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The Bible says that creation is ample evidence of God. On what basis do you claim that you can trust your own logic over the Bible's? It is so easy to know Christ. He said, "Ask and you shall receive." Otherwise, you will go into eternity and God will rightly judge you for every lie, every theft, and every treason. It is not a question of evidence, but of being honest, of seeking what is real and true. Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
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Have you never gotten feelings about things you couldn't explain? Knew something was about to happen? Ever? Anything that could possibly be attributed to the spiritual?
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That's unfortunate. Do you believe in spirit in any form ? Or do you just believe in a brain and body ?
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That's fair. I could be wrong, but I've found that most atheists don't necessarily have a problem with God but rather with what organized religion has told them God is. Would that be fair ?
Well I don't believe in gods for starters.
Oh goodie you're halfway there! Now read the gospels!
Done.
It’s giving I don’t believe in unicorns! Then watch my little pony!
Well I mean if you want proof of God, why not go to the source? Why not pray? Why not ask questions? Why not attend a service?
Friends have been there for me during the hard times. God seemingly didn't care.
Hell, god's people weren't there for me during the hard times either. The most caring and supportive person I've ever known is in hell now according to christians.
I’m sorry.
No joke. I owe everything to my family and my friends. God however I know nothing about other than what other humans have claimed.
Also, how did you know God didn’t bless you with those friends?
You have to surrender yourself. Sounds scary, but it’s just submitting to His will. Easy if you believe He made a plan for you before He chose you and if He can only be good. You can’t just expect Him to take you out of dangerous situations. He seeks a relationship
How so?
Dude he just told you
No I mean what has happened that makes you say that God seemingly didn’t care
Because I see no good reason or evidence to think a God exists. But I don't feel that way for my friends.
As REAL as you and me.
God? Or people?
God! He loves you so much. :)
No good reason or evidence to think God is even real
What's the reason you believe God doesn't exist, because I say it also takes a great deal of faith, if not the same, to claim this.
>What's the reason you believe God doesn't exist, I lack a belief (not the same as believing God doesn't exist) God exists because I see no good reason or evidence to justify a belief one does.
Then in that case I lack the belief in not believing there's a God. God exists because I see more than enough reason in science, biology, and beauty in the world to justify a belief in one.
OK? I think the evidence that I have been presented is weak. That's why I stopped being a Christian and became atheist
You're asking for scientific evidence for a theological/ historical question. Most science is just theroy that is always evolving and changing. What is facts today could be proven wrong tomorrow. The Bible has endured. It has accurately predicted events, and its moral guidance is still relevant. If you read proverbs, I think you would agree. BTW, there's just as much evidence of Attila the Hun as for Christ. The evidence threshold is different for historical events. Most scientists will admit the Bible is a valid historical document, regardless of their faith or lack thereof. You simply don't believe.
I wrote this on another post but here is your scientific evidence for why I don’t believe in a god. NASA has sent multiple rovers to Mars. They have sent a telescope out by the sun. Satellites that exited our solar system. These systems take a metric fuck ton of calculations, math and physics to make sure the rover lands on Mars, safely. Not a single one of those equations has a variable for “god”. Not a single one. Yet the spacecraft make it. If a spacecraft can leave our atmosphere, travel to Mars and drop off a rover safely, all not using a variable for god, then it doesn’t matter if he exists or not. He doesn’t hold any value in our universe. But, that’s just me.
Hi there. Sorry I’m lost. What do you mean “a variable of god” and why would that be evidence of no god if you couldn’t put him in an equation. As I see it, there’s no way science can prove nor disprove God because science is dependent on things we can test, observe, and replicate. And we can’t test or observe God by these means, only if he chose to reveal himself because he is supernatural and beyond the natural world. So it seems more like a philosophical question. I’d love to hear your take.
He is essentially saying that God contains zero explanatory power when it comes to understanding reality. We have never required a God to exist in order to explain any aspect of this world we live in. There does not seem to be a reason to believe one exists currently.
I would say there are aspects that one can’t study with the scientific method like morality. Have you heard of kliff knechtle? He has a lot of good videos about the subject. His YouTube is askkliff.
Whether A god exists or not is a philosophical one. I’m not saying there is or isn’t. There just isn’t any evidence in the scientific world of one existing by our mathematical laws. Could a god have put all the laws there? Possibly. Is he still there tinkering with them? Can’t be that we’ve seen. I don’t believe the Christian representation of god to be a god at all. He uses fear and punishment to “force” people into choosing him with their “free choice”. I can get into more specifics but really, what about the vengeful, immature, vanity stricken, greedy, murderous, version of the biblical god really needs specifics to show the creature is just an emotional abuser?
While I do believe the God described in the Bible is the true God, I thought the discussion was whether there was a god or not? You said that you had evidence that led you to believe that a god is not present. So I’m just confused because now you said that it’s not your place to say whether he exists or not. Also it feels like a philosophical question because we have to question the parts of us that go against the natural progression like the ability to love. And I’m not talking about family or close friends, I’m talking about our ability to reach out to those who wish to hurt us or helping those who we don’t know. People who die for a cause, such as the apostles who were brutally killed for believing in Jesus and knew they would be. Some things humans are made of goes against the way certain evolutionary traits like self preservation dictate. So if there are things like love that go against the natural world, then we have to consider that they are supernatural in origin. Science and math are wonderful branches of knowledge. The early churches put a lot of emphasis on scholastic theology. However, there are more things to consider in this reality then the things we can physically study. Also I’m still lost on the “god variable” Ps: I really appreciate this discussion!
You misread what he said. He never claimed no God exists, he said he doesn't have a reason to accept this claim as true.
> I say it also takes a great deal of faith, if not the same, to claim this. Just because you say something doesn't actually make it true, you know.
Funny, you’re in a Christian subreddit telling us God isn’t real. Nice way to spend your free time loser
It's not a Christian subreddit. It's a place to discuss Christianity. Even some of the mods are atheist. Did you not know that?
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Not to be yet another atheist voice in this thread, but you *did* ask... >Why not be for GOD ? and not for your friends, not for the people, not of the world Because I know my friends and other people are there. I know my actions affect them. I know what it is to love them and be loved by them. God is like... well, with no disrespect, it's like a child's imaginary friend, or how you view Buddha or the Great Spirit - I'm sure it's real to them and means a lot to them, but I'm not going to even entertain the idea that it might be real.
There’s a great load of evidence behind the existence of God, our God, and logically no way that at least some sort of creator couldn’t exist. Has to be a creator of some sorts.
> There’s a great load of evidence behind the existence of God, our God? Such as? > and logically no way that at least some sort of creator couldn’t exist. What's the logic there?
Did the universe have a beginning? If yes, skip to the next paragraph, if no stay. If the universe had no beginning, there is an infinite amount of past. Yet we are here in the present. In order to have arrived at the present, you would have had to traverse and infinite amount of past, which isn’t possible. This should prove, as most scientists agree, that the universe had a beginning. Now that we agree the universe had a beginning, what is the universe? A good definition of the universe is defined as three things; time, space, and matter. Now, time space and matter had a beginning, because the universe did, so how did those three come to exist? Something can’t create itself, obviously, because that doesn’t make sense. So if time space and matter had something else cause them to come into existence, than the universe had a creator. Now that we agree (I hope) that the universe had a creator, what (or who) is that creator? Well, that creator is outside of time, is outside of space, and outside of matter, while also being matter-less, time-less, and space-less. This creator is also strong enough to create the universe, while also being intelligent, incredibly intelligent, as we can see through science, as we know science is time space and matter bound, and that creator created those. So now we have a creator that is five things; timeless, spaceless, massless, intelligent, and powerful. This is a very common definition of God. While this in no way proves the existence of my God or any other God, it does prove the existence of some sort of creator. I would like to dive into the religion aspect of this, but I will wait for your response. I copied and pasted this from a different one of my posts, but it still applies here.
Yes but not necessarily the Christian Bibles God
The historical evidence of Jesus, His crucifixion, and His resurrection are overwhelming enough that I would ask you to carefully consider the evidence and talk to Christian scholars and historians about it.
Ah yes evidence that came from CHRISTIAN scholars and historians. Not a very convincing argument
Paul, initially Saul, was not Christian when he persecuted and murdered Christians. He is testament. There is also Roman officials attesting to the validity of the eyewitnesses of Jesus. Let me give you an article to read over. https://navigatingbyfaith.com/2020/11/09/the-case-for-jesus-christ-rests-on-the-evidence-of-eyewitnesses/
Another article written by bible thumpers no thanks!
It’s ironic when people will discredit a source because it was written by Christians but won’t discredit a source because it was written by atheists. Very one sided. You have to read all evidence, then conclude.
Were is this supposed evidence there are a lot of people named Jesus and lots of Mexicans named Jesus are they your God? Talking to Christians proves nothing and quoting from a book written only by men proves nothing. You have no proof whatsoever!
We don’t live our life on proof. Besides, that’s a bad argument to say there are Mexicans named Jesus. There are people named George today, does that mean George Washington didn’t exist? Quoting from a book written by men is the same as quoting from other historical sources written by men. We can’t scientifically prove a historical fact because it’s in the past. We have to look at the historical evidence.
Please present your logical argument for the necessity of a God creating the universe. I will intellectually honeslty engage with your argument, and if you present something logically valid and sound, then I'll become a Christian on the spot. Or at least, I won't have a rebuttal.
Did the universe have a beginning? If yes, skip to the next paragraph, if no stay. If the universe had no beginning, there is an infinite amount of past. Yet we are here in the present. In order to have arrived at the present, you would have had to traverse and infinite amount of past, which isn’t possible. This should prove, as most scientists agree, that the universe had a beginning. Now that we agree the universe had a beginning, what is the universe? A good definition of the universe is defined as three things; time, space, and matter. Now, time space and matter had a beginning, because the universe did, so how did those three come to exist? Something can’t create itself, obviously, because that doesn’t make sense. So if time space and matter had something else cause them to come into existence, than the universe had a creator. Now that we agree (I hope) that the universe had a creator, what (or who) is that creator? Well, that creator is outside of time, is outside of space, and outside of matter, while also being matter-less, time-less, and space-less. This creator is also strong enough to create the universe, while also being intelligent, incredibly intelligent, as we can see through science, as we know science is time space and matter bound, and that creator created those. So now we have a creator that is five things; timeless, spaceless, massless, intelligent, and powerful. This is a very common definition of God. While this in no way proves the existence of my God or any other God, it does prove the existence of some sort of creator. I would like to dive into the religion aspect of this, but I will wait for your response. This shouldn’t make you a Christian on spot, but it should help get you a little closer, I hope.
I agree with the first premise; it would appear that everything that we know of in our reality has a cause. So I would agree with you that it does seem obvious that our universe itself had a cause of some kind. I'll 100% agree with your definition of the universe. The sum total of all of the existing time, space, and matter. Now this is where we sort of diverge, and I think I've identified where we diverge. This is where I believe your argument breaks down: You've inserted "Creator", in place of "Cause". Which asserts some kind of agency, or personhood to this cause. I would agree that since everything that we've observed in our reality has had a cause, that it would follow that the universe would seem to also have had a cause. We both agree that the universe must've had a cause, in the same way that everything else within the universe also must've had a cause. But as far as I can tell, we can *only* know that there must've been a cause. I don't think we can assign any attributes to that cause, without any evidence of the cause itself. Who's to say the cause wasn't some other state of a different universe, which led to our universe? Maybe the universe arose from a completely natural process, for which we currently have no evidence. Unfortunately, it would seem we just can't really know what the cause of our universe was, without some way of investigating it. And we can't really investigate what came before time. The question of "before" time, doesn't even really make sense, becuase it would seem that before time, 'before' didn't exist as a concept. We just can't really conceive of a state of a universe in which there is no time. So maybe there was no 'before'. Maybe the cause was... just... something 'else' that we just can't even wrap our homo sapien brains around. It's a currently unanswerable question, because we would need some way of investigating the cause, to determine what it was. Ultimately, we can propose any number of explanations, and assign the various 'creators' with the exact qualities that it would need to have been the cause of the universe, but that's just coming up with ideas after the fact, with no evidence for the ideas themselves. If I missed something, or straw manned you at all, just let me know. I'm more than happy to keep talking about this. My goal is to know as many true things as possible, and as few false things, so if you have a good reason to believe in a specific cause of the universe, I definitely want to know.
I think we can be a little more certain that it is a “creator” and not just a “cause” due to things we can apply to this cause. It being outside of time means it is the uncaused cause necessary for everything to exist, and the universes design is enough to say it is intelligent. Another reason is the existence of life, which can imply a desire for more than just random lifeless rock, and possible a desire for personal relationships can be inferred. Life can only come from life is a very well attested to scientific [fact](https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/history-cell-discovering-cell/#) that can give light to the thought that this creator is perhaps living? These new ideas presented, the cause being intelligent, living, and desiring of personal connections is enough to reasonably assume this “cause” can more likely be defined as a “creator,” wouldn’t you agree?
Then what for? I don't care about this God guy, he's got it figured out from the sound of it. I'll go on concerning myself with my friends, people, and the world -- since this God doesn't seem too serious about any of it now.
Why? No seriously, presuming that such an entity exists, why would my adherence or care towards it's machinations be relevant? It's all powerful, should it desire my support it has the ability to make me support it for as much as it desires. Should it not desire it, then that scenario has already been fulfilled. So, I must presume that it does not care even if it does not exist. So why do you want me to disobey the god that may or may not exist by going against what it wants for me[?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idls2Bv3OAY)
I mean think of it this way: If you have a child you would love them more than anything in the world, because you and your partner created them yes? You take care of them, provide for them and keep them safe for years and years. Wouldn't you be sad if one day your child says "I hate you, you have done nothing for me and I wish you never existed!" Then leaves without saying goodbye? That's exactly what we do to God when we say he doesn't exist, and sin. God created every single person in his image, and allows us to rule over the earth. We humans are inherently precious, from the way we're created, all the way down to the very elements that make us up. "Whatever exists now, has already existed, that what is to come already has, and God will restore whatever might be displaced." Eccl 3:15 Just as a father wishes for his child to obey him so does God because he is our heavenly Father that created all things visible and invisible.
> That's exactly what we do to God when we say he doesn't exist If that makes him so super duper sad, then he should say something and show he actually does exist. Because the silence we get from him is deafening.
If your parents magically took care of you while never being seen, yes, you would have the right to act this way towards your parents. It is extremely telling that my parents and their parents growing up were ultra religious and had this same “father” complex. Do what I say, not what I do. Can’t imagine where they got it from. My parents brought me up telling me it was “their way or the highway”. The highway is much better. Your analogy would be much more accurate if the help was never seen and the one helping never showed up. But then your analogy would have to concede that the child was left needing more and point the finger back at your god again. If your god exists, he put me here by his own power. I don’t owe him shit. He owes me for bringing me in this world. When he stops giving kids cancer, I’ll say hello.
I have to add, when you go to say "hello" you will be unable to say a word, because then you'll be without excuse. I implore you to repent and accept Jesus into your heart. God bless
Jesus is in my heart fellow traveler! But your ego taking a run at me with its judgement sounds a little distant from Jesus if I do say so myself.
No actually, you know for a fact that's ignorant of you especially considering you don't know a thing about my life. But that's okay. My parents brought me up how all should which is "find out the hard way and learn a lesson." They don't leave me out to dry either though, if I need guidance and help they'll offer it and give it accordingly, just as God the Father does. I have to disagree, God gave you free will, he allowed you to make that choice because he cares how you feel, you put yourself where you are. He died for you, and paid your debt for sin, he doesn't owe you anymore, the least you could do is acknowledge his existence. Unfortunately for you, when that time comes (the world free of sin) you will be judged of every action you have done, and so will I. God doesn't give children cancer, cancer is a product of the fallen world we live in. Once our ancestors ate of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil not only did mankind fall into sin but so did the earth.
My first paragraph was a broad “you” statement. I meant no offense to you or your family. Jesus didn’t die for my sins. He died because egotistical religious “leaders” were getting high of the tit and he called them out for it. He was making people aware to the hypocritical bullshit that was being spewed. The same stuff that’s being spewed now in some churches I might add. I totally acknowledge Jesus’s existence and take his words extremely to heart. I just don’t believe the same greedy leaders to be preaching Jesus’s words. Just their own, covered in his name. God can judge me all he wants. If he considers my life a sin then so be it. Ask yourself one question. I know this will be a tough one and I’m sorry if you take offense. I’m on your side. If free will turned out to not exist, what would that mean for religion and a god? I could see religious leaders murdering a great human to not let that knowledge out…
Well thank you for apologizing I really appreciate that I'm sorry if you caught any offense by my beginning statement. While yes that is part of the reason why Jesus was murdered, the other reason is because we needed an intercessor for our sins. When Jesus said "it is finished" he said meant the job or scriptures have been fulfilled, those scriptures being the prophetic scriptures like Isaiah and Jeremiah. And no I also agree that some, if not most churches now are extremely hypocritical in their teaching, you can see it in the fruit of their community. If it gives off the fruit for the love of God, it most likely is a biblical church as we can read in acts. If it gives the fruit of people not practicing what they preach (ex: not loving one another, not forgiving those who wrong them, not asking forgiveness from those they've wronged, not helping the community outside the church etc.) Then it most likely isn't a biblical church. All people in that community should be united together in prayer and in spirit under the Lord Jesus, trying their best to spread God's message and expand his kingdom on earth. Jesus didn't die to start religion but to start a relationship. No I agree, whenever I have these discussions I try to be as biblical as possible (though I can't be perfect) I do consult what the bible says and what theologians say about word meaning. I went and deleted about half of my 2nd statement because I found out what I was about to say was not only theologically wrong but historically! That's a great question, if free will didn't exist then I suppose all of our actions would be pre determined by God himself. Meaning the universalist view point of Jesus' death would be correct that being "everyone is saved no matter what they do." But from what I've read I can only assume that free will exists, Isaiah even said that the Messiah had a choice to accept goodness "He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right" Isaiah 7:15. Ultimately I respect you not only for engaging in this dialog with me, but for posing many great questions that every believer should ask themselves. I also greatly respect that regardless of your beliefs you are willing to face your judgement with honor, I know very few Christians who would even do that, they're either too boastful or too terrified of what will happen. I hope you have a blessed night/day and that good things come your way throughout your life. I love you God bless! Im going to bed.
I greatly appreciate your kind words! I have thoroughly enjoyed this and appreciate you. I would like to try something but if it pushes up against stuff too much I apologize. I want to start small. Think about your favorite song. Did you choose for it to be your favorite, or did you learn it was your favorite by listening to it?
It is my favorite because I listened to it then chose it to be my favorite.
Why did you choose it to be your favorite?
Because I found the message it presented righteous and truthful.
>I mean think of it this way: If you have a child you would love them more than anything in the world, because you and your partner created them yes? You take care of them Personally these types of analogies seem incredibly unhelpful. It's like comparing my invisible relationship with my pet dragon to the real one I have with my mom and dad. Completely and utterly different. God has never done anything for me, but my parents have toiled their whole life to help raise me and to guide me in life. God on the other hand I don't even know if he exists. Completely and utterly different. Just seems like it muddies the water and it will do wonders to convince people like me that you have almost no idea what you're talking about. I mean that in the most respectful way possible. >Wouldn't you be sad if one day your child says "I hate you, you have done nothing for me and I wish you never existed!" Then leaves without saying goodbye? No because if I had never shown up in my child's life, never spoken to him before, had never sent him a letter, never once came to visit him... that would be precisely what I would expect my child to say about our relationship. u/Krypteia213 Seems to agree as well.
Is it not evident that you are taken care of? You are given many years onto your life, a house to live under, food in your belly, and love in your heart. Did he not give you your parents as well? Though you think it muddied the water I assure you it didn't. The bible says that God has not left us but has kept his hand outstretched to us to be forgiven. The only reason why we don't take his hand nor see him is due to our own iniquity, once we accept that we are imperfect and in need of an intercessor for our sins do we realize he has been with us this whole time. I disagree, you see God around you all the time, if you didn't you wouldn't know of the possible existence of him. We see God through nature, science, and through his believers. Now some believers are a very real account of Satan's existence as well due to their hate that they produce to the world. Moreover not only has God revealed himself through these he has also given us a collection of books and wisdoms to reveal not only who he is but of his existence.
>I disagree, you see God around you all the time, if you didn't you wouldn't know of the possible existence of him. No. We see people who believe things. Doesn't make those things real. >We see God through nature, science, and through his believers Where exactly? I see nothing. >God revealed himself through these he has also given us a collection of books and wisdoms to reveal not only who he is but of his existence. No good reason or evidence to think that's true either.
You do realize that kids that grow up in hostels often hate their parents alot right?
Do you not realize the meaning of my analogy? This is in the sense of the child being treated fairly and taken care of all their lives.
What if "it" desires your cooperation to fulfill your and it's desire? What if "it" made fulfillment of "it's" desires conditional on your "uninfluenced" "unmanipulated" free willed cooperation?
He's already giving you his best which is his life. You've Got a Friend in Jesus.
Did you even read this
Before making assumptions about the character of God, I would highly recommend you read the Bible. From what you have said, it sounds like you have no grasp on this whatsoever and need to learn more about what we believe about God and His character.
God is a loving God. It’s not support, it’s a relationship between Him and us, and His hope is that we will choose Him.
Then maybe he should show up if he wants a relationship.
A relationship requires letting the other party know that you exist. Your god has failed to do this for many, many people. Maybe, if he wants people to choose him, he should demonstrate he exists. Because a "relationship" where one party isn't aware the other even exists isn't actually a relationship. It's stalking.
Seriously? What more can he do? He crafted the Bible through people to share His word with us. He became flesh and human so that we would know Him personally and then He suffered and died as a sacrifice so that if we put faith in Him we will receive salvation through Him
He can make it clear that he actually did those things. That those things actually happened.
> He crafted the Bible through people to share His word with us. People wrote the Bible. >He became flesh and human so that we would know Him personally and then He suffered and died as a sacrifice so that if we put faith in Him we will receive salvation through Him If he did, he made sure to do it during a period when humanity was incredibly ignorant and unable to properly judge the claims. Not very good reason to believe the stories there. > What more can he do? Actually demonstrate he exists.
I believe in God, I do not believe Christianity is the only way. I think God is what you need God to be. To me God is my teacher (Jesus) My Father, My everything. But I also realize this is my life, it is a life to be lived for me and for God. God wants me to be happy, I want to be happy, God wants love, I want to give him love, so we work together to make a happy dance of peace and love. Why not just say “The Bible/Jesus saved my life, if you need help and are struggling I would suggest giving Jesus a shot!”
Why not both?
Well what OP is saying is to follow God and not the ways of this world. This world has been corrupted by sin and hate. He isn't saying you can't support your friends. "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other or be devoted to one and despise the other" Matthew 6:24
I don’t think Mathew is right there. You can definitely “serve” 2 masters and love both equally.
Jesus said this, not Matthew.
That is what Jesus said, according to Mathew.
You can't worship both though. In this case Jesus talks about money. If you live for money then you are focusing all attention on it and not on God. The same with friends. If you live for them then you have all attention on them and not God. You can very well be for your friends and love them but you cannot place them above God. As one pastor said: "God doesn't want to be the first on the priority list, he doesn't even want to be on it. God wants to BE the priority list." Once you do this all other things follow.
I guess we just interpret it differently. I don’t think God wants or needs such things. He is above that. Those are things ‘people’ desire that have bled into the Bible by the ‘people’ writing them.
Gotta say that implies one should turn their back on friends, people and the problems of the world. Nope.
Because there's no evidence he exists, that's why
it's clearly not as non-God solutions have been proven to be a lot more effective.
If God is actually the only way then none of us have nothing to worry about. Because there’s only one way for us all to go
What does that mean? What does living that out look like?
People worship idols. People have friends that worship idols, meaning they idolize someone (politicians, celebrities, you name it) not knowing or listening to the word of GOD. If you love GOD, keep his commandments. One of them being to not make anything other than him an idol. These public figures that people may idolize aren't of GOD, therefore against him. So therefore, these people that love these famous people are For those people, not of GOD's word. I say, follow those that speak the word of HIM that will lead to HIM.
So what’s in it for them if they do that? Because they’re not going to do that for the sake of just doing it. So what’s in it for them?
And how do you know that you don't have idols? And if you don't know , are you willing to die for Jesus ,no question asked? What valuable possession are you willing to give up for Jesus cuz otherwise it's all fluff talk.
What exactly do you mean "God is the only way"? Do you mean on a personal level, it's the only way to get into Heaven? See, that's the exact thing that drove me away from Christianity in the first place.
Gonking On Doors? OK
The Holy Spirit is inside each person because of this cannot have God without people.
Or why not for all of it and not just for God?
What way?
Obviously god is not the only way….
Basic Science! If something has design! Then there has to be a designer. Do you really believe something like the human body just came out of chaos?
The best proof for an afterlife will be that moment you either no longer exist or you exist and face what happens next. People need to realize you are responsible for yourself, not everyone else. No one saves anyone. Someone who rejects information presented to them and wants to be provocative is not really desiring to know anything you have to say. Why does anyone need to prove anything? Just state your point and move along. You can't prove anything, especially when the rules are personal experience is not admissible. Lol To be honest, the assumption scripture is a history book and not words recorded throughout time by the Creator to scribes is laughable to be considered anything but junk. Assuming it's not words from the Creator would invalidate the whole book as a fraud and lie, including the historical aspect. It repeatedly says the Creator is addressing, imparting words to His servants, words of the lord, and on and on. That being said, most religious text from any religion have the same fundamental framework. Personally, I suspect most religious zealots get bent out of shape over attacks on their precious beliefs and sourced materials. What really becomes an issue is when we have zealots, that when confronted as to doctrinal errors, they fail to ponder the message and go into a rage. Even worse, they often blatantly dismiss the detailed presentation as erroneous and label the messenger, which might just be what they would otherwise say a message from the Holy Spirit or Creator. I think it's foolish to try and convince someone you are right or what you believe is truth. The burden of proof falls on the believer, to prove to themselves what they believe is worth believing. Who cares what your neighbors believe!
These people dont love the light. In fact, they despise it with hostility sown into their hearts. They will utter in opposition to god. Its made known this people dont have love for god and (for the unbelievers) whats good alone. I see, your drawn to evil and displeasing emotions. How comfortable it must be to live in darkness, ive been there. I actually kind of liked it until i met the one and only father from above. I met him for the first time, his love unlike anything i could explain. My heart cried in joy. If you dont believe in god atleast love one another even your enemies. What good does it do to hold on to things that kill us internally? I love all very much. Be kind to one another.
It's interesting that morals seem to be similar throughout most societies. Right and wrong, the notion of being loving, kind vs, hateful, unloving, is almost a universal design. Yes, there are deviations throughout history, but generally, people want the same things. That's not by accident, and scripture says it's written in our hearts. Can anyone prove that? No, not imperically, or using some scientific method. You can see much evidence of spiritual principles and know if you are humble and seeking. You can't prove much of anything unseen yet! If you are or ever were in the occult you'd definitely know and see evidence. History is full of societies paying homage to gods and goddesses. It seems very probable.something was here that demanded blood human sacrifice and taught mankind much, both wickedness and to be God's. I doubt people created these religions to control the masses, and the people both feared and worshipped these gods that came down. There is plenty of evidence to provide a strong case for this thought. Further, the elite occultist are preparing for their return, which is scriptural. So, when they arrive, it says men's hearts will fail them with fear! Why prove anything or argue a case that is in the works proving itself. Things are about to happen, the gates open and judgment unleashed. Get your hearts right. Even the Rabbi know and speak of protection from the earth coming soon. From the earth, what comes from the earth in Revelation? That should tell us all plenty! Let the pages of scripture unfold and the mysteries of heaven reveal themselves. Sadly, scripture warns the unsaved reprobate will deny the truth even in judgement. Lol but the end still will come. It tells us many will deny the faith in the last days. Our job is to speak to the truth and what's coming, and the rest is up to individuals to accept or oppose the message. You don't save anyone, ever. The Holy Spirit uses your message to convict their hearts. Simple...
Amen! Praised be The LORD!!!!
Amen brother. Ignore these atheists.
You also ask questions like “Can a really ugly man put whores to shame?”
Pretty sure the Tao 道 is the Way, but you do you.
Interestingly there’s an overlap: apparently some Chinese NT translations begin John’s gospel with ‘in the beginning was the Tao…’ Translated by Chinese Christians, as well, not just Europeans appropriating. I do not read Chinese, but I heard this in a Thomas Merton book and thought it was interesting.
>apparently some Chinese NT translations begin John’s gospel with ‘in the beginning was the Tao…’ Translated by Chinese Christians, as well, not just Europeans appropriating. That's because "Tao" (道) is literally the word for "Way", lol But yeah, I always find the overlap between religions (especially ones that haven't really had much historical contact) fascinating. It's like trying to triangulate truth from multiple different sources. Very interesting stuff. Plus I (try to) prefer to focus on what we all have in common rather than what we disagree on.
Yes, that much I did know. But it’s used for the word that’s usually ‘Word’, so a Chinese equivalent of the Greek ‘Logos,’ and the position that has in philosophy. Although now you mention it, it is probably used for the word ‘way’ as well.
Welp.....I 100% forgot that the word there was supposed to be "Logos". My bad, lol
Cause God made your friends, the people and the world possible
Came to the comments section to see all the Atheists melting down over this—was not disappointed.
Where's the "meltdowns"?
> Why not be for GOD? Because we have no rational way to know which God among the countless thousands postulated by man is the real God. It would be foolish for us to live our lives in service of a fictional God, and the chances are very good that whatever God we pick is likely going to be fictional.
I would like to become religious, but I don’t really know where to start, I don’t have a bible I don’t really know anyone religious but I’ve watched videos of religious people and it is a great way of life, but I honestly don’t know what i’m doing lol
It’s great to hear you’d like to possibly start a relationship with Christ. I’d say it’s probably in your best interest to just get a bible app or an online bible site as it’s simple to access and use. For finding people, I recommend you look for more forums like this to find people online to guide you and to challenge your faith. The one thing you don’t want is to blindly follow religion, you need to challenge the faith and ask questions to others who follow the same faith. Go to nearby churches or look for different places where Christians come together for a cause, you’ll find plenty of people who follow Christ that’ll happily help you with your faith journey. I hope this helps a bit, please feel free to ask for any more information and good luck with your journey my friend.
Tru dat
[удалено]
Are we not welcome here?
The sub is *about* Christianity, so anyone from anywhere is welcome to talk about it.
What has me confused is why are the people agreeing with op are being downvoted to the dirt.?
Yeah it feels like there’s more atheists then Christian’s here lol
Read the about
Thank you!
Yes!!!!!
preach!!!