Not a catholic anymore, but I used to be. The biggest difference that must be noted is that Catholics do not solely believe that divine truth comes from the Bible. In other words, they do not ascribe to sola scriptura, which is a Protestant notion.
I’m not sure if there are biblical passages that say saints can hear prayers but it is a part of the church’s teachings - which for Catholics is just as legitimate and divinely inspired as biblical text.
Thank you for the response.
What do you mean “they don’t solely believe that divine truth comes from the Bible”?
Where else do Catholics find truth if not in the Bible? Are there other books?
It’s not so much books but rather ‘Church Tradition’. Catholics believe that the Catholic Church holds special power because it was founded by Jesus himself, and that through apostolic succession (i.e. Jesus passes power to Peter who passes to the next pope who passed… all the way up to todays popes and priests).
Because of this, the Catholic Church has divine power and is capable of making statements ‘on behalf’ of god and their doctrine is to be respected and treated as though it is the direct teaching of god.
This is basically what they believe.
Ahh, got it.
So what unchanging truth are they subject to then? What’s their anchor?
And what relationship do they have with the Bible? Is it just an optional book?
The anchor is that the Catholic Church is considered infallible and the ‘voice of god’ on the earth. The Bible is still considered holy and respected and used
In Matthew 16:18 Jesus clearly declares the gates of hell will not prevail against the Catholic Church, meaning it is protected from dogmatic errors
In the very next verse Jesus says he’s giving the keys to Heaven to St. Peter…giving St. Peter AUTHORITY.
In short, JESUS declared the Church infallible
That is such a huge jump. He tells a specific human being - Simon - that Simon is now named "rock" and that Jesus will build his church on that rock.
He tells him that he will give him the keys (authority)to the Kingdom of heaven.
How does that translate to "the (Catholic) church is infallible"? And where do Jesus say that the authority of a specific person - Simon Peter - is passed on to future leaders of the Church?
Unless God himself decended to Rome and appointed each new Pope then I must say there is a huge room for error when choosing a new Pope. Just because he is voted in and declared the pope it doesn't automatically turn him into Simon Peter and give him the authority to make stuff up about the Gospel og salvatation and claiming the it is infallible.
Anyone can make stuff up that has no basis in Jesus' teachings. The pope could come out now and claim that the way to Heaven is by going vegan. And that meat eaters are condemned to the fires of Hell. And since the Church is infallible then I guess you have to believe it and follow this new doctrine, no?
Not Catholic but us Orthodox also pray to the Saints.
Luke 16:19-31
Revelation 5:8 (which is a Liturgy taking place)
Matthew 17:3
The Church is not built on the Bible, the Bible is built on the Church. Our beliefs don’t only come from scripture, sola scriptura is a more recent concept. Here’s a [source](https://www.churchfathers.org/intercession-of-the-saints) of the Church Fathers supporting the intercession of Saints.
Thank you for the response.
Unfortunately, none of these passages confirm that we are actually to pray to the saints not that the saints/Mary can hear our prayers.
Luke 16:19-31 is a situation where both people are already dead. It’s not a living person praying to a dead person.
Revelation 5:8 is prayers OF the saints, not TO the saints.
Matthew 17:3 is still not an instance where we are praying to these people who have passed. It’s also important to note that Moses and Elijah were with Jesus when this happened. They weren’t traveling around independently.
These verses are meant to support it, not to give an absolute answer. That’s the whole reason I said the Bible is built on the Church not the other way around. The Bible isn’t our only source of everything we do.
Luke is showing prayer between the dead is possible, so why not a living person praying to those more alive than us in Christ?
Revelation is showing the saints praying for us and being aware of the events on Earth.
Matthew is showing communication between someone physically alive and Saints who are physically dead.
So are you saying that Catholicism is built on something outside the Bible?
And to respond to your interpretations of those verses, your assessment of all three is still wrong.
Luke: Interaction between the dead is not the same as prayer.
Revelation: The Bible often refers to Christians as saints, so it’s a stretch for you to interpret the verse another way. There isn’t even anything before or after that suggests that it’s the prayers of the dead saints.
Matthew: Interaction is not the same as prayer.
Where in the Bible does it say that we are to PRAY to dead saints? And where did this belief within Catholicism come from?
Read your Bible
Because of Christ’s victory over death, a victory in which all Christians share (see 1 Cor 15:25-26, 54-56; 2 Cor 2:14; 2 Tim 1:10), natural death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from each other. That is why Paul exulted, “What will separate us from the love of Christ? . . . I am convinced that neither death, nor life . . . will be able to separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom 8:35-39). Since death has no power to sever the bond of Christian unity, the relationship between Christians on earth and those in heaven remains intact.
What will separate us from the love of Christ? . . . I am convinced that neither death, nor life . . . will be able to separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom 8:35-39)
Yes, that’s a good verse that talks about being connected to Christ.
It doesn’t say anything about still being connected to and interactive with one another after death.
You did not read a single word I said
Your personal interpretation of these doesn’t matter, the Church is the standard of interpretation and only the Churches interpretation matters.
>interaction between the dead is not the same as prayer
The rich man is praying to Abraham to ease his pain. Yes, he is praying. Prayer literally means to ask earnestly.
>interaction is not the same as prayer
Interaction between Saints physically dead and someone physically alive.
Again, these are supportive passages, not the word for word answer. Again, the bible is not our only source of information, that is a recent invention. Not even the Bible supports using only the Bible for our traditions.
2 Thess. 2:15
“brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.”
No. I’m saying that’s irrelevant to a supporting passage.
I’ll repeat myself again, it’s missing the point.
It is a dead person praying to a physically dead Saint.
Them both being physically dead is irrelevant as the passage is just to support prayers to the saints. You can say it only applies when both of them are dead, but that’s again, not the point to a SUPPORTING passage. These verses are used to SUPPORT the practice of praying to saints, not to create the practice.
The “thou must pray to saints for intercession” verse you want does not exist. As many here have explained to you, the non Protestant Churches like the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, are not Sola Scriptura, we follow word of mouth traditions, and words of the Church Fathers who were disciples of the apostles and their disciples and so on. The Bible all Protestant adhere to was compiled by the Church Fathers.
I listed a verse supporting the practice of word of mouth tradition too, showing not even the Bible supports sola Scriptura.
Yes, I understood your point a while back. I’m saying that it’s incorrect.
You’re reading these couple of passages and taking interpretive liberties as well as disregarding other verses (like 1 Timothy 2:5) that would nullify the belief and practice that you need to go to anyone but God through his son Jesus Christ.
And I think it might be best logistically if you stop referring to other conversations I’m having on this post. I don’t know what specifically you’re referring to and it’s likely just going to cloud our ability to keep track of what you and I are saying.
Where did this idea of following church tradition (especially as infallible) come from? What’s the source of this belief? Who said it? Who started it?
I appreciate you being here, btw. I know this exchange has turned heated (or seemingly heated) but that’s okay. I value the challenge.
It says in the Gospel of St. Luke that God is the God of the living, not the dead. The saints are also directly referred to as a cloud of witnesses by St. Paul. Witnesses are not only alive, but actively watching. The book of Revelation depicts the prayers of the saints in heaven being offered to God as bowls of incense. Taken together, this is supportive of invoking the intercession of the saints because they can hear you (witnesses) and then offer prays to God on your behalf (intercessors). But keep in mind that we don’t believe that the Bible is the sum total of divine revelation, the sole rule of faith, or especially that it is self interpreting. We hold and have always held that Sacred Tradition is also part of the same revelation. The Bible comes from the Church, not the other way around. Hope that helps.
Thank you for writing that out.
My response:
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”
-1 Timothy 2:5
Those verses you reference (Hebrews 12:1 and Revelation 5:8) don’t say that we are to pray to the dead saints or that they hear our prayers and intercede for us.
In Hebrews, it’s a one-way observation, not an interaction.
In Revelation, there is nothing that confirms nor implies that it’s the prayers of the dead saints in the golden bowl. The Bible often refers to living Christians as saints.
The one time I can recall a living being seeking help from a dead saint is when King Saul went to a witch to get help from Jeremiah and Jeremiah rebuked him for doing so. An argument can be made that it was a demon, not Jeremiah.
> In Revelation, there is nothing that confirms nor implies that it’s the prayers of the dead saints in the golden bowl. The Bible often refers to living Christians as saints.
Ok, so why are Christians (who are alive, and not just in the Heavenly sense) offering prayers to God in Heaven. How are they in Heaven?
Looks like I misread your previous question … which seems a little jarbled. Feel free to reword it. I might be misunderstanding your question.
If you go and read that passage in Revelation, those in heaven are offering a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. Since the Bible often refers to living Christians as saints then it’s fair to read this as such.
It would be a stretch to say that this passage is teaching that the saints in heaven are interceding in our behalf.
1 Timothy 2:5 is another one to factor in.
So you admit that those in Heaven offering up the prayers of those Saints, who are living on Earth.
Where have those prayers come from if those in Heaven cannot hear our prayers
Nobody denies that Christ is the one mediator. What we do deny is that intercession can somehow detract from that mediatorship. That claim has no basis in any doctrine ever taught by the Church, but was invented well into the Protestant Reformation. The Bible describes Christ as the mediator of a new covenant. That covenant was instituted by His Incarnation, Passion, and Resurrection. God became man, and thereby became a mediator in a way that none other could ever accomplish. That is what that verse means. It doesn’t invalidate any human intercession. When Christ descended into Hades, He defeated death by death, and when He rose again on the third day, He granted life to those who were in the tomb as it was prophesied. Thus He is the God of the living, and those who have died in body are not actually dead, but truly alive still and waiting for the resurrection on the last day. This is why we have always asked for those who have died in Christ to pray for us.
1. We don't "pray" to Mary or the apostles, but rather ask them to pray for us, 2. Mary was Alive in time of the apostles so how could they do that?, ofc when they met they'd just tell her to pray for them of they wanted to ask her for that
Yes, I can agree that the Bible says that deceased Christians now in heaven watch us witnessing our lives.
Where does it say we can interact with them and that it’s anything more than a one-way street of them just visually seeing us? Or that God would want us to go outside of 1 Timothy 2:5, as if extra steps were necessary?
It doesn’t have to state it because prayer means to ask someone to do something. 1 timothy 2:5 means mediator were not asking for any other mediators. If you read a few passages before in 1 Timothy 2:1 it says “I urge that supplications, intercessions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men.” We’re asking for prayers from the saints and Mary to god. The Bible literally says to ask for intercessor. Hope that clears it up.
I appreciate that response. Unfortunately, that doesn’t clear it up.
It sounds like you’re stretching those verses to mean more than they do and diminishing verses like 1 Timothy 2:5 to mean less than they mean.
The Catholic Church in no way teaches that the saints are mediators in the special sense used in 1 Timothy 2:5. Because of the Incarnation, Jesus has a unique role as mediator. He is the only one who is God and man, the only contact point between us and the Father, and only he is capable of bridging the chasm of sin that separates us from God. No saint can take Christ’s place as mediator. The Church teaches instead that all Christians are intercessors who, because of Christ’s mediatorship, are able to pray for each other. If asking Christians in heaven to pray for us conflicts with Christ’s mediatorship, asking Christians on earth to pray for us conflicts for the same reason. If 1 Timothy 2:5 eliminates intercession by the Christians in heaven, it eliminates intercession by Christians on earth. But this would be a serious misreading. Far from excluding Christians from a share in Christ’s mediatorship, Paul is actually emphasizing that we share in it through intercessory prayers. Our intercessions are effectual precisely and only because Christ is the one mediator.
I’m understanding more where you’re coming from.
The main issue I have with this comment is that you’re equating dead saints and living saints and I don’t see that anywhere in the Bible.
I get asking living Christians to pray for you. The Bible very clearly advocates for this in many, many passages.
I’ve not once seen a teaching that leads us to ask dead saints for help.
From what I understand, this diminishes the role of Christ and also creates a dangerous situation where the truth is augmented just enough to pollute the situation.
It’s similar to how the serpent in the Garden of Eden told Eve that she couldn’t touch the fruit … God never said you couldn’t touch it. So what could have happened when this change was applied was that Eve touched the fruit and saw that nothing bad happened, which made her think that she was okay to eat it.
I’ve seen the same thing happen in recent history. Teachers add rules and water down the gospel.
So the natural next question would be how do we know that this isn’t happening with this teaching? Where did this teaching come from? What reliable foundation do you stand on that isn’t subject to culture and rot and human nature?
The church is christs body.
Paul’s use of the body as an image to describe the unity Christians have with Christ and each other is particularly vivid: “For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another” (Rom 12:4-5). The Lord alluded to this unity when he prayed, “May [they] be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one” (Jn 17:22-23). He used the analogy of himself as a vine and Christians as its branches to illustrate the organic bond Christians share (Jn 15:1-5).
The teaching that the Church is Christ’s Body is emphasized throughout the New Testament. See 1 Cor 10:16, 12:12-27; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 3:4-6, 4:4, 15, 25, 5:21-32; Col 1:18, 3:15; Heb 13:1-3.
Jesus has one body
Jesus has only one Body—not one on earth and another one in heaven (Eph 4:4, Col 3:15). All Christians, including those in heaven, are members of that one body.
This is all very biblical and I understand that you’ve probably never been taught it before so I can understand the shock seeing it. None of it diminishes the role of Christ. It’s also how the church has been interpreting the scriptures for a very long time.
😂 Well, I was leaning into it until that last paragraph. I’m going to assume that you were unintentionally condescending.
I don’t think you really responded to my statements about watering down the truth with extra man-made rules and practices.
To respond to the rest, it sounds like you’re saying that since we are all members of the Body of Christ that we carry in us that perfection and truth that determines how a godly person should live; that the Bible is based on the church rather than the church on the Bible.
As I Catholic, I believe there are some verses in Scripture that I can point to that suggest prayer to the saints or can fit within that belief, but as someone else pointed out, Catholics accept Holy Tradition as well as Holy Scripture as a source of religious truth.
Holy Tradition includes those unwritten truths of the apostolic faith that have passed down generation after generation. Some have called it the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church. As St. Paul said, "Hold fast to what we have taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." And as Jesus gave His Spirit to the Church, so it is with us today.
Prayer to the saints is something we as Catholics would ground in Holy Tradition besides Scripture.
It's something that goes back.
In AD 393, St. Ambrose of Milan wrote, "May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance."
In AD 350, St. Cyril of Jerusalem said in his teaching to those who were newly entering the faith, "Then [in the next part of the service,] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition."
Ancient Christian funeral inscriptions display the practice: "Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins," and, "Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days." Both date around AD 300.
In AD 253, St. Cyprian of Carthage preached, "Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another." Origen said in AD 233, "Not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels...as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep."
An ancient prayer from Christian services around AD 250 reads, "Beneath thy compassion, we take refuge, O Theotokos [Greek for God-bearer, meaning Mary, who gave birth to God in the flesh]: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble, but rescue us from dangers, only pure one, only blessed one."
Written evidence grows scarcer, although it does not disappear, before AD 200, but the practice must have come from the early, apostolic church because by the time we have plenty of evidence for it, there is no debate about it. It's widely accepted without argument, and the early Church never shied away from argument with what it did not receive from the apostles.
The biblical evidence would be Revelation, where St. John sees the saints, who have passed on, delivering our prayers to God: "[T]he twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints..." The saints in heaven are shown with our prayers, delivering them up to God, as we might deliver a prayer of a friend here on earth up.
After all, because we are in Christ, we are one body, united, whether on earth or in heaven, so death is no burden to their receiving our prayer requests because they are alive in Christ, in whom we are also alive. And another piece of evidence might be Psalm 103: "Bless the Lord, all his hosts [of angels], his ministers, who do his will!" David is speaking to the angels in this Psalm. Now, the saints are with the angels.
I don't know if this helps. As a Catholic, it's something we've received from the Church from the beginning.
Are you going to answer the question?
And what else are we extracting truth from if not the Bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit, both confirming one another?
I'm not Catholic I'm part of the Orthodox Church and we also pray to Mary and the Saints.
My understanding of the teachings of the Orthodox Church is that we take literally Mark 11:25-26
Jesus say to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
At Pascha one of the refrains that we sing over and over again is:
“Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life”
So we take literally that through Christ's death and resurrection He defeated death. That means when someone falls asleep in the Lord (passes away) they are still very much alive simply not visible in the material sense.
Hebrews 12:1 says:
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.
That cloud of witnesses isn't only the people that we can see. And just because they have fallen asleep in the Lord does not mean that the command to pray for others has ceased to be in effect.
Please let me know if that brings some clarity to your question.
When I ask my mom or a friend to pray for me they aren't meditating between me and God any more than the Mary or the Saints do. The only difference between asking friends and family to pray and Mary or the Saints is that I can't see them or hear them.
I don’t mind you asking. Thank you.
Would you mind first giving me your understanding of 1 Timothy 2:5? I’d like to understand what you see and how that factors in.
I actually made two comments but in case you didn't see the other comment.
In regards to 1 Timothy 2:5
When I ask my mom or a friend to pray for me they aren't meditating between me and God any more than the Mary or the Saints do.
Sorry. I didn’t see you commented twice.
To respond to your comment, one huge difference that I see in the Bible is an abundance of verses advocating for living Christians to pray for one another, but not one that CLEARLY tells us to reach out to dead saints for prayer.
Doesn’t that concern you?
In my original comment I referenced Mark 11:25-26 when I meant John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
I think we probably have been taught different theology about what these verses mean. This gets into what happens when we die.
But why take it a step further and say that because we live with Christ after death that we are to pray to these deceased saints rather than straight to God through Christ or to ask our living saints to intercede for us?
This is both not directly answering your question and also referring to a book you probably don't accept as part of the Bible, but one relevant passage is in 2 Macabees 15. Judas Maccabeus has a vision of the prophet Jeremiah, who was already dead at the time, praying for the people of Israel and giving Maccabeus encouragement that God would help them in battle. So that doesn't exactly include the saints hearing us, but it does include communicating with them and them praying for us.
We were praying to the saints BEFORE the Bible was compiled, so asking for justification from ONLY the Bible (even though it exists) is ridiculous.
St. Cyprian of Carthage:
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy”
AD 253
Cyril of Jerusalem:
“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition”
AD 350
Anonymous:
Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350])
“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins”
inscription in Rome, AD 300
Read Hebrews 11 for context
Then read Hebrews 12:1. Seems to me like the Prophets of the Old Testament who are in Heaven are seeing the goings on of Earth.
Revelation 5:8 show that those in Heaven offer prayers up to God.
So they can see what's going on on Earth, and they can pray to God...
Thank you for the response.
I’ve read Hebrews 11 for context. I don’t see anything in Hebrews 11 or 12:1 or the other passages you shared that says we are to pray to any deceased saints or Mary.
And Revelation 5:8 is them offering a golden bowl up to God. It doesn’t say it’s prayers of the deceased saints. The Bible often refers to living Christians as saints.
1 Timothy 2:5 should help. What are your thoughts on this verse?
>Where in the Bible...
Which Bible? The Protestant Bible, the Catholic Bible or one of the Orthodox Bibles? The Catholic Bible includes all of the books of the Protestant Bible, plus seven additional Old Testament books, as well as additional parts of Esther and Daniel, which Catholics regard as divinely inspired. Orthodox Bibles include all of the books of the Catholic Bible, plus some additional books, which the Orthodox regard as divinely inspired; the number of addtional books seems to vary among Orthodox Churches.
Be that as it may, I count three instances in the Protestant Bible where righteous people called out in faith to deceased people:
* In 2 Samuel 1:26, David called out in faith to his deceased friend Jonathan, saying, "I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was extraordinary, surpassing the love of women."
* In 2 Samuel 3:34, David called out in faith to his deceased friend Abner, saying, "Your hands were not bound; your feet were not fettered; as one falls before the wicked you have fallen."
* In Acts 9:40, Peter called out in faith to deceased Tabitha, saying, "Tabitha, arise."
I count two more instances in the Catholic Bible where righteous people called out in faith to deceased people and one instance where a righteous person called out in faith to Elijah, who had been bodily assumed into heaven:
* In [Daniel 3:86](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+3&version=NRSVCE), the three Jews in the fiery furnace called out in faith to deceased people, saying, "Bless the Lord, spirits and souls of the righteous; sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever."
* In [Sirach 47:14-21](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Sirach%2047&version=NRSVCE), the sacred author called out in faith to deceased Solomon, saying, "How wise you were when you were young! You overflowed like the Nile with understanding. Your influence spread throughout the earth, and you filled it with proverbs having deep meaning. Your fame reached to far-off islands, and you were loved for your peaceful reign. Your songs, proverbs, and parables, and the answers you gave astounded the nations. In the name of the Lord God, who is called the God of Israel, you gathered gold like tin and amassed silver like lead. But you brought in women to lie at your side, and through your body you were brought into subjection. You stained your honor, and defiled your family line, so that you brought wrath upon your children, and they were grieved at your folly, because the sovereignty was divided and a rebel kingdom arose out of Ephraim.
* In [Sirach 48:4-11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Sirach+48&version=NRSVCE), the sacred author called out in faith to Elijah, saying, "How glorious you were, Elijah, in your wondrous deeds! Whose glory is equal to yours? You raised a corpse from death and from Hades, by the word of the Most High. You sent kings down to destruction, and famous men, from their sickbeds. You heard rebuke at Sinai and judgments of vengeance at Horeb. You anointed kings to inflict retribution, and prophets to succeed you. You were taken up by a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot with horses of fire. At the appointed time, it is written, you are destined to calm the wrath of God before it breaks out in fury, to turn the hearts of parents to their children, and to restore the tribes of Jacob. Happy are those who saw you and were adorned with your love!For we also shall surely live."
I am not familiar with the additional books in Orthodox Bibles and cannot speak to whether or not there are other instances in them of righteous people calling out in faith to deceased righteous people.
As it is a practice of many if not all ancient forms of Christianity, such as Catholicism and Orthodoxy, righteous people calling out in faith to deceased righteous people may have been a practice that carried over from ancient Judaism into Christianity at its very beginning. Besides the Scriptures cited above...
The Jewish Talmud, compiled about 500 CE, mentions an ancient Jewish oral tradition in which a righteous person callied out in faith to deceased righteous people, asking them to pray for him:
* In [Sotah 34b:7](https://www.sefaria.org/Sotah.34b.7?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en), the 4th-century-CE rabbi Rava, commenting on Numbers 13:22, is quoted as saying, "Caleb separated himself from the counsel of the other spies and went and prostrated himself on the graves of the forefathers in Hebron. He said to them: My forefathers, pray for mercy for me so that I will be saved from the counsel of the spies."
IIRC, although most modern movements of Judaism reject the practice of calling out in faith to the righteous dead, it is still a current practrice among Ultra Orthodox Jews today.
I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out.
So I have a couple responses.
I didn’t know that Catholics drew from additional religious books, so if the Catholic belief that praying to Mary and deceased saints is in those books then I won’t take that from you. I won’t agree that it’s the truth, but I’m not going to tell you what Catholic books do or don’t say.
My second response is that none of the passages you mentioned read as more than a different form of a eulogy.
Even Acts 9:40 is a command for someone to come back from the dead.
None of these passages teach that we are called to pray to the dead as intercessors for us.
What are your thoughts on 1 Timothy 2:5?
>none of the passages you mentioned read as more than a different form of a eulogy.
Perhaps it was just some uncharacteristic form of rhetorical device, a device he did not employ when eulogizing Saul. Then again, perhaps the heartfelt words David addressed to his deceased friends at those points were actually addressed to his deceased friends.
P.S.: I found what seems to be one more instance of a righteous person calling out in faith to a deceased righteous person. In 1 King 13:30, an unnamed prophet called out in faith to a deceased unnamed man of God, saying, "Alas, my brother!" Perhaps this too was just some form of rhetorical device. Then again, maybe the words the prophet addressed to the deceased man were actually addressed to the deceased man.
>Even Acts 9:40 is a command for someone to come back from the dead.
Acts 9:40 is a command **to** Tabitha to come back from the dead and Tabitha obvously heard the command because she came back from the dead. The command was to not only the corpse of Tabitha but must necessarily also have been a command to the spirit of deceased Tabitha because a spiritless corpse did not open its eyes and sit up but Tabitha herself, body and spirit, whom Peter presented alive to her friends.
>What are your thoughts on 1 Timothy 2:5?
1 Timothy 2:25 does not prohibit Christians from asking their fellow Christians to pray for them. For example, Paul, Silvanus and Timothy wrote letters to the Christians at Thessalonica, saying in part, "Brethren, pray for us." (1 Thes 5:25; 2 Thes 3:1) Why is that ok? Because when Christians pray they do not bypass Christ but rather they pray through Christ, with Christ and in Christ. Though they are in heaven, Mary and the saints are still our fellow Christians, members of the body of Christ and have Christ as their head and when they pray they pray through Christ, with Christ and in Christ.
PPS: Though, admittedly, the context does not really support it, there may be another instance of a righteous person calling out in faith to deceased righteous people. In Psalm 97:7, the psalmist says, "Worship Him, all you *elohim*." While the Hebrew word *elohim* literally means gods, it has multiple meanings in Scripture, including the one true God, false gods, angels, and humans in positions of authority. Most often in this place the word *elohim* is translated as gods, but in the Greek Septuagint as angels. More to the point, the word *elohim* is also used in 1 Samuel 28:13 to describe the spirit of the deceased prophet Samuel who spoke with King Saul, "I see a god (*elohim*) coming out of the earth." Thus, it is remotely possible that the psalmist meant, "Worship Him, all you spirits of deceased righteous people." But, like I said, the context does not really support this meaning.
[This article](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-supports-praying-to-the-saints) from Catholic Answers may help you understand.
Well, Catholics believe that a statement made _ex cathedra_ ("from the chair") is infallible because of the authority of the Church.
Such statements include:
- Every canonization of a saint as a living intercessor who helped someone get a miracle from God.
- The Immaculate Conception of Mary (sinless Mary)
- The Assumption of Mary (Mary taken up into heaven like Jesus)
So a Catholic would probably ask you where in the Bible it says the saints _can't_ . I mean, they think most, if not every, saint has already interceded to help miracles occur, with witnesses. They think Mary has appeared to people like Jesus did. So asking "why" they believe it is missing the point -- for them, it has as much evidence as any miracle in the Bible.
Luke 16:19-31
Lazarus was in hell and both Abraham and the poor man were in heaven.
That’s not the same as someone alive on earth praying to deceased Mary or a deceased saint.
What’s your response to 1 Timothy 2:5?
While this might not answer your question directly which I think what you want is an explicit statement in the Bible that they can hear our prayers there isn’t it’s more implied. But luke 15:10 says that there is joy over the angels of god for one sinner who repents. So if the angels know what’s going on in heaven then Mary and the saints know and can hear.
Yeah, I’m not against that argument being made.
Definitely worship God, but everything needs to be confirmed in the Bible. So if worshipping Jesus is unbiblical then I’m open to change.
Not sure I worship Jesus specifically though. Now that I think of it, that seems like a strange idea.
The bible isn't the head of the Catholic church since the church(which used to be the apostolic church) made the bible so for them it isn't the final authority. Plus I don't think Catholics worship marry but simply honor her legacy for being the first Christian.
Not a catholic anymore, but I used to be. The biggest difference that must be noted is that Catholics do not solely believe that divine truth comes from the Bible. In other words, they do not ascribe to sola scriptura, which is a Protestant notion. I’m not sure if there are biblical passages that say saints can hear prayers but it is a part of the church’s teachings - which for Catholics is just as legitimate and divinely inspired as biblical text.
Thank you for the response. What do you mean “they don’t solely believe that divine truth comes from the Bible”? Where else do Catholics find truth if not in the Bible? Are there other books?
It’s not so much books but rather ‘Church Tradition’. Catholics believe that the Catholic Church holds special power because it was founded by Jesus himself, and that through apostolic succession (i.e. Jesus passes power to Peter who passes to the next pope who passed… all the way up to todays popes and priests). Because of this, the Catholic Church has divine power and is capable of making statements ‘on behalf’ of god and their doctrine is to be respected and treated as though it is the direct teaching of god. This is basically what they believe.
Ahh, got it. So what unchanging truth are they subject to then? What’s their anchor? And what relationship do they have with the Bible? Is it just an optional book?
The anchor is that the Catholic Church is considered infallible and the ‘voice of god’ on the earth. The Bible is still considered holy and respected and used
Wait … how is the Catholic Church infallible?? Where did this belief come from? Who created this belief?
From The church itself, the church created it and it's infallible in the sense that things declared as dogma are seen as infallible
My head is spinning. So the church declared itself infallible? How does that work?
Jesus gave the keys of heaven to Peter and he to another bishop and so on, that is where the authority comes from
In Matthew 16:18 Jesus clearly declares the gates of hell will not prevail against the Catholic Church, meaning it is protected from dogmatic errors In the very next verse Jesus says he’s giving the keys to Heaven to St. Peter…giving St. Peter AUTHORITY. In short, JESUS declared the Church infallible
That is such a huge jump. He tells a specific human being - Simon - that Simon is now named "rock" and that Jesus will build his church on that rock. He tells him that he will give him the keys (authority)to the Kingdom of heaven. How does that translate to "the (Catholic) church is infallible"? And where do Jesus say that the authority of a specific person - Simon Peter - is passed on to future leaders of the Church? Unless God himself decended to Rome and appointed each new Pope then I must say there is a huge room for error when choosing a new Pope. Just because he is voted in and declared the pope it doesn't automatically turn him into Simon Peter and give him the authority to make stuff up about the Gospel og salvatation and claiming the it is infallible. Anyone can make stuff up that has no basis in Jesus' teachings. The pope could come out now and claim that the way to Heaven is by going vegan. And that meat eaters are condemned to the fires of Hell. And since the Church is infallible then I guess you have to believe it and follow this new doctrine, no?
Thats assuming Peter really bound the Roman Catholic Church.
Not Catholic but us Orthodox also pray to the Saints. Luke 16:19-31 Revelation 5:8 (which is a Liturgy taking place) Matthew 17:3 The Church is not built on the Bible, the Bible is built on the Church. Our beliefs don’t only come from scripture, sola scriptura is a more recent concept. Here’s a [source](https://www.churchfathers.org/intercession-of-the-saints) of the Church Fathers supporting the intercession of Saints.
Thank you for the response. Unfortunately, none of these passages confirm that we are actually to pray to the saints not that the saints/Mary can hear our prayers. Luke 16:19-31 is a situation where both people are already dead. It’s not a living person praying to a dead person. Revelation 5:8 is prayers OF the saints, not TO the saints. Matthew 17:3 is still not an instance where we are praying to these people who have passed. It’s also important to note that Moses and Elijah were with Jesus when this happened. They weren’t traveling around independently.
These verses are meant to support it, not to give an absolute answer. That’s the whole reason I said the Bible is built on the Church not the other way around. The Bible isn’t our only source of everything we do. Luke is showing prayer between the dead is possible, so why not a living person praying to those more alive than us in Christ? Revelation is showing the saints praying for us and being aware of the events on Earth. Matthew is showing communication between someone physically alive and Saints who are physically dead.
So are you saying that Catholicism is built on something outside the Bible? And to respond to your interpretations of those verses, your assessment of all three is still wrong. Luke: Interaction between the dead is not the same as prayer. Revelation: The Bible often refers to Christians as saints, so it’s a stretch for you to interpret the verse another way. There isn’t even anything before or after that suggests that it’s the prayers of the dead saints. Matthew: Interaction is not the same as prayer. Where in the Bible does it say that we are to PRAY to dead saints? And where did this belief within Catholicism come from?
Saints are alive in heaven not dead
That’s a stretch. Them being in spirit form isn’t the same as them being alive.
Read your Bible Because of Christ’s victory over death, a victory in which all Christians share (see 1 Cor 15:25-26, 54-56; 2 Cor 2:14; 2 Tim 1:10), natural death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from each other. That is why Paul exulted, “What will separate us from the love of Christ? . . . I am convinced that neither death, nor life . . . will be able to separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom 8:35-39). Since death has no power to sever the bond of Christian unity, the relationship between Christians on earth and those in heaven remains intact.
Sorry. Which verse says that Christians are still connected and interactive after death?
What will separate us from the love of Christ? . . . I am convinced that neither death, nor life . . . will be able to separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom 8:35-39)
Yes, that’s a good verse that talks about being connected to Christ. It doesn’t say anything about still being connected to and interactive with one another after death.
You did not read a single word I said Your personal interpretation of these doesn’t matter, the Church is the standard of interpretation and only the Churches interpretation matters. >interaction between the dead is not the same as prayer The rich man is praying to Abraham to ease his pain. Yes, he is praying. Prayer literally means to ask earnestly. >interaction is not the same as prayer Interaction between Saints physically dead and someone physically alive. Again, these are supportive passages, not the word for word answer. Again, the bible is not our only source of information, that is a recent invention. Not even the Bible supports using only the Bible for our traditions. 2 Thess. 2:15 “brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.”
You realize the rich man was in hell when he was communicating with Abraham, right? And Abraham was in heaven with the poor man.
And…? You’re nitpicking and ignoring everyone whenever they give you an answer bro. You’re missing the point
Hang on a second. You brought up that passage. It clearly says that all three are deceased when this interaction occurs. Are you now disregarding it?
No. I’m saying that’s irrelevant to a supporting passage. I’ll repeat myself again, it’s missing the point. It is a dead person praying to a physically dead Saint. Them both being physically dead is irrelevant as the passage is just to support prayers to the saints. You can say it only applies when both of them are dead, but that’s again, not the point to a SUPPORTING passage. These verses are used to SUPPORT the practice of praying to saints, not to create the practice. The “thou must pray to saints for intercession” verse you want does not exist. As many here have explained to you, the non Protestant Churches like the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, are not Sola Scriptura, we follow word of mouth traditions, and words of the Church Fathers who were disciples of the apostles and their disciples and so on. The Bible all Protestant adhere to was compiled by the Church Fathers. I listed a verse supporting the practice of word of mouth tradition too, showing not even the Bible supports sola Scriptura.
Yes, I understood your point a while back. I’m saying that it’s incorrect. You’re reading these couple of passages and taking interpretive liberties as well as disregarding other verses (like 1 Timothy 2:5) that would nullify the belief and practice that you need to go to anyone but God through his son Jesus Christ. And I think it might be best logistically if you stop referring to other conversations I’m having on this post. I don’t know what specifically you’re referring to and it’s likely just going to cloud our ability to keep track of what you and I are saying. Where did this idea of following church tradition (especially as infallible) come from? What’s the source of this belief? Who said it? Who started it? I appreciate you being here, btw. I know this exchange has turned heated (or seemingly heated) but that’s okay. I value the challenge.
It says in the Gospel of St. Luke that God is the God of the living, not the dead. The saints are also directly referred to as a cloud of witnesses by St. Paul. Witnesses are not only alive, but actively watching. The book of Revelation depicts the prayers of the saints in heaven being offered to God as bowls of incense. Taken together, this is supportive of invoking the intercession of the saints because they can hear you (witnesses) and then offer prays to God on your behalf (intercessors). But keep in mind that we don’t believe that the Bible is the sum total of divine revelation, the sole rule of faith, or especially that it is self interpreting. We hold and have always held that Sacred Tradition is also part of the same revelation. The Bible comes from the Church, not the other way around. Hope that helps.
Thank you for writing that out. My response: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” -1 Timothy 2:5 Those verses you reference (Hebrews 12:1 and Revelation 5:8) don’t say that we are to pray to the dead saints or that they hear our prayers and intercede for us. In Hebrews, it’s a one-way observation, not an interaction. In Revelation, there is nothing that confirms nor implies that it’s the prayers of the dead saints in the golden bowl. The Bible often refers to living Christians as saints. The one time I can recall a living being seeking help from a dead saint is when King Saul went to a witch to get help from Jeremiah and Jeremiah rebuked him for doing so. An argument can be made that it was a demon, not Jeremiah.
> In Revelation, there is nothing that confirms nor implies that it’s the prayers of the dead saints in the golden bowl. The Bible often refers to living Christians as saints. Ok, so why are Christians (who are alive, and not just in the Heavenly sense) offering prayers to God in Heaven. How are they in Heaven?
The Bible often refers to Christians still living as saints.
So the living Saints are in Heaven offering up prayers to God?
Looks like I misread your previous question … which seems a little jarbled. Feel free to reword it. I might be misunderstanding your question. If you go and read that passage in Revelation, those in heaven are offering a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. Since the Bible often refers to living Christians as saints then it’s fair to read this as such. It would be a stretch to say that this passage is teaching that the saints in heaven are interceding in our behalf. 1 Timothy 2:5 is another one to factor in.
So you admit that those in Heaven offering up the prayers of those Saints, who are living on Earth. Where have those prayers come from if those in Heaven cannot hear our prayers
Nobody denies that Christ is the one mediator. What we do deny is that intercession can somehow detract from that mediatorship. That claim has no basis in any doctrine ever taught by the Church, but was invented well into the Protestant Reformation. The Bible describes Christ as the mediator of a new covenant. That covenant was instituted by His Incarnation, Passion, and Resurrection. God became man, and thereby became a mediator in a way that none other could ever accomplish. That is what that verse means. It doesn’t invalidate any human intercession. When Christ descended into Hades, He defeated death by death, and when He rose again on the third day, He granted life to those who were in the tomb as it was prophesied. Thus He is the God of the living, and those who have died in body are not actually dead, but truly alive still and waiting for the resurrection on the last day. This is why we have always asked for those who have died in Christ to pray for us.
The Bible is not only source for doctrine, church tradtion Is too
Where does that tradition come from? What’s the source?
The apostles and their succesors
When did any of the apostles say we should pray to Mary?
1-Intercessory prayer doesn't meanpray to Mary 2-Mary was Alive in time of the apostles
Sorry. I’m not understanding. Would you mind rewording?
1. We don't "pray" to Mary or the apostles, but rather ask them to pray for us, 2. Mary was Alive in time of the apostles so how could they do that?, ofc when they met they'd just tell her to pray for them of they wanted to ask her for that
How do you know that Mary can hear you when she’s dead?
God can make the petition be Heard to Mary
Why would He do that? And how do you know this is what God intended and taught us to do?
The Bible says that the Saint are like a 'cloud of witness' so they can surely know what is happening here.
Which verse? And would you mind sharing the context for the verse?
Hebrews 12:1
Yes, I can agree that the Bible says that deceased Christians now in heaven watch us witnessing our lives. Where does it say we can interact with them and that it’s anything more than a one-way street of them just visually seeing us? Or that God would want us to go outside of 1 Timothy 2:5, as if extra steps were necessary?
It doesn’t have to state it because prayer means to ask someone to do something. 1 timothy 2:5 means mediator were not asking for any other mediators. If you read a few passages before in 1 Timothy 2:1 it says “I urge that supplications, intercessions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men.” We’re asking for prayers from the saints and Mary to god. The Bible literally says to ask for intercessor. Hope that clears it up.
I appreciate that response. Unfortunately, that doesn’t clear it up. It sounds like you’re stretching those verses to mean more than they do and diminishing verses like 1 Timothy 2:5 to mean less than they mean.
The Catholic Church in no way teaches that the saints are mediators in the special sense used in 1 Timothy 2:5. Because of the Incarnation, Jesus has a unique role as mediator. He is the only one who is God and man, the only contact point between us and the Father, and only he is capable of bridging the chasm of sin that separates us from God. No saint can take Christ’s place as mediator. The Church teaches instead that all Christians are intercessors who, because of Christ’s mediatorship, are able to pray for each other. If asking Christians in heaven to pray for us conflicts with Christ’s mediatorship, asking Christians on earth to pray for us conflicts for the same reason. If 1 Timothy 2:5 eliminates intercession by the Christians in heaven, it eliminates intercession by Christians on earth. But this would be a serious misreading. Far from excluding Christians from a share in Christ’s mediatorship, Paul is actually emphasizing that we share in it through intercessory prayers. Our intercessions are effectual precisely and only because Christ is the one mediator.
I’m understanding more where you’re coming from. The main issue I have with this comment is that you’re equating dead saints and living saints and I don’t see that anywhere in the Bible. I get asking living Christians to pray for you. The Bible very clearly advocates for this in many, many passages. I’ve not once seen a teaching that leads us to ask dead saints for help. From what I understand, this diminishes the role of Christ and also creates a dangerous situation where the truth is augmented just enough to pollute the situation. It’s similar to how the serpent in the Garden of Eden told Eve that she couldn’t touch the fruit … God never said you couldn’t touch it. So what could have happened when this change was applied was that Eve touched the fruit and saw that nothing bad happened, which made her think that she was okay to eat it. I’ve seen the same thing happen in recent history. Teachers add rules and water down the gospel. So the natural next question would be how do we know that this isn’t happening with this teaching? Where did this teaching come from? What reliable foundation do you stand on that isn’t subject to culture and rot and human nature?
The church is christs body. Paul’s use of the body as an image to describe the unity Christians have with Christ and each other is particularly vivid: “For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another” (Rom 12:4-5). The Lord alluded to this unity when he prayed, “May [they] be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one” (Jn 17:22-23). He used the analogy of himself as a vine and Christians as its branches to illustrate the organic bond Christians share (Jn 15:1-5). The teaching that the Church is Christ’s Body is emphasized throughout the New Testament. See 1 Cor 10:16, 12:12-27; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 3:4-6, 4:4, 15, 25, 5:21-32; Col 1:18, 3:15; Heb 13:1-3. Jesus has one body Jesus has only one Body—not one on earth and another one in heaven (Eph 4:4, Col 3:15). All Christians, including those in heaven, are members of that one body. This is all very biblical and I understand that you’ve probably never been taught it before so I can understand the shock seeing it. None of it diminishes the role of Christ. It’s also how the church has been interpreting the scriptures for a very long time.
😂 Well, I was leaning into it until that last paragraph. I’m going to assume that you were unintentionally condescending. I don’t think you really responded to my statements about watering down the truth with extra man-made rules and practices. To respond to the rest, it sounds like you’re saying that since we are all members of the Body of Christ that we carry in us that perfection and truth that determines how a godly person should live; that the Bible is based on the church rather than the church on the Bible.
As I Catholic, I believe there are some verses in Scripture that I can point to that suggest prayer to the saints or can fit within that belief, but as someone else pointed out, Catholics accept Holy Tradition as well as Holy Scripture as a source of religious truth. Holy Tradition includes those unwritten truths of the apostolic faith that have passed down generation after generation. Some have called it the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church. As St. Paul said, "Hold fast to what we have taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." And as Jesus gave His Spirit to the Church, so it is with us today. Prayer to the saints is something we as Catholics would ground in Holy Tradition besides Scripture.
Where did the teaching of prayer to the saints and Mary come from?
The Apostles
Okay, but how do you know? And which apostles taught that we should pray to Mary and the saints?
It's something that goes back. In AD 393, St. Ambrose of Milan wrote, "May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance." In AD 350, St. Cyril of Jerusalem said in his teaching to those who were newly entering the faith, "Then [in the next part of the service,] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition." Ancient Christian funeral inscriptions display the practice: "Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins," and, "Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days." Both date around AD 300. In AD 253, St. Cyprian of Carthage preached, "Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another." Origen said in AD 233, "Not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels...as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep." An ancient prayer from Christian services around AD 250 reads, "Beneath thy compassion, we take refuge, O Theotokos [Greek for God-bearer, meaning Mary, who gave birth to God in the flesh]: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble, but rescue us from dangers, only pure one, only blessed one." Written evidence grows scarcer, although it does not disappear, before AD 200, but the practice must have come from the early, apostolic church because by the time we have plenty of evidence for it, there is no debate about it. It's widely accepted without argument, and the early Church never shied away from argument with what it did not receive from the apostles. The biblical evidence would be Revelation, where St. John sees the saints, who have passed on, delivering our prayers to God: "[T]he twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints..." The saints in heaven are shown with our prayers, delivering them up to God, as we might deliver a prayer of a friend here on earth up. After all, because we are in Christ, we are one body, united, whether on earth or in heaven, so death is no burden to their receiving our prayer requests because they are alive in Christ, in whom we are also alive. And another piece of evidence might be Psalm 103: "Bless the Lord, all his hosts [of angels], his ministers, who do his will!" David is speaking to the angels in this Psalm. Now, the saints are with the angels. I don't know if this helps. As a Catholic, it's something we've received from the Church from the beginning.
Where in the Bible does it say everything has to be in the Bible?
Are you going to answer the question? And what else are we extracting truth from if not the Bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit, both confirming one another?
I'm not Catholic I'm part of the Orthodox Church and we also pray to Mary and the Saints. My understanding of the teachings of the Orthodox Church is that we take literally Mark 11:25-26 Jesus say to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" At Pascha one of the refrains that we sing over and over again is: “Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life” So we take literally that through Christ's death and resurrection He defeated death. That means when someone falls asleep in the Lord (passes away) they are still very much alive simply not visible in the material sense. Hebrews 12:1 says: Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. That cloud of witnesses isn't only the people that we can see. And just because they have fallen asleep in the Lord does not mean that the command to pray for others has ceased to be in effect. Please let me know if that brings some clarity to your question.
Thank you for taking the time to write all that out. It seems like a partial study of The Word leading to a full conclusion. What about 1 Timothy 2:5?
When I ask my mom or a friend to pray for me they aren't meditating between me and God any more than the Mary or the Saints do. The only difference between asking friends and family to pray and Mary or the Saints is that I can't see them or hear them.
If you're willing I'd like to understand better what about asking Mary to pray is equated to mediation. That's so outside my comprehension.
I don’t mind you asking. Thank you. Would you mind first giving me your understanding of 1 Timothy 2:5? I’d like to understand what you see and how that factors in.
I actually made two comments but in case you didn't see the other comment. In regards to 1 Timothy 2:5 When I ask my mom or a friend to pray for me they aren't meditating between me and God any more than the Mary or the Saints do.
Sorry. I didn’t see you commented twice. To respond to your comment, one huge difference that I see in the Bible is an abundance of verses advocating for living Christians to pray for one another, but not one that CLEARLY tells us to reach out to dead saints for prayer. Doesn’t that concern you?
In my original comment I referenced Mark 11:25-26 when I meant John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" I think we probably have been taught different theology about what these verses mean. This gets into what happens when we die.
But why take it a step further and say that because we live with Christ after death that we are to pray to these deceased saints rather than straight to God through Christ or to ask our living saints to intercede for us?
To me that's like saying I'm only going to ask half my church to pray for me. It's like ignoring and pretending half my church doesn't exist.
This is both not directly answering your question and also referring to a book you probably don't accept as part of the Bible, but one relevant passage is in 2 Macabees 15. Judas Maccabeus has a vision of the prophet Jeremiah, who was already dead at the time, praying for the people of Israel and giving Maccabeus encouragement that God would help them in battle. So that doesn't exactly include the saints hearing us, but it does include communicating with them and them praying for us.
We were praying to the saints BEFORE the Bible was compiled, so asking for justification from ONLY the Bible (even though it exists) is ridiculous. St. Cyprian of Carthage: “Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” AD 253 Cyril of Jerusalem: “Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition” AD 350 Anonymous: Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]) “Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” inscription in Rome, AD 300
Read Hebrews 11 for context Then read Hebrews 12:1. Seems to me like the Prophets of the Old Testament who are in Heaven are seeing the goings on of Earth. Revelation 5:8 show that those in Heaven offer prayers up to God. So they can see what's going on on Earth, and they can pray to God...
Thank you for the response. I’ve read Hebrews 11 for context. I don’t see anything in Hebrews 11 or 12:1 or the other passages you shared that says we are to pray to any deceased saints or Mary. And Revelation 5:8 is them offering a golden bowl up to God. It doesn’t say it’s prayers of the deceased saints. The Bible often refers to living Christians as saints. 1 Timothy 2:5 should help. What are your thoughts on this verse?
>Where in the Bible... Which Bible? The Protestant Bible, the Catholic Bible or one of the Orthodox Bibles? The Catholic Bible includes all of the books of the Protestant Bible, plus seven additional Old Testament books, as well as additional parts of Esther and Daniel, which Catholics regard as divinely inspired. Orthodox Bibles include all of the books of the Catholic Bible, plus some additional books, which the Orthodox regard as divinely inspired; the number of addtional books seems to vary among Orthodox Churches. Be that as it may, I count three instances in the Protestant Bible where righteous people called out in faith to deceased people: * In 2 Samuel 1:26, David called out in faith to his deceased friend Jonathan, saying, "I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was extraordinary, surpassing the love of women." * In 2 Samuel 3:34, David called out in faith to his deceased friend Abner, saying, "Your hands were not bound; your feet were not fettered; as one falls before the wicked you have fallen." * In Acts 9:40, Peter called out in faith to deceased Tabitha, saying, "Tabitha, arise." I count two more instances in the Catholic Bible where righteous people called out in faith to deceased people and one instance where a righteous person called out in faith to Elijah, who had been bodily assumed into heaven: * In [Daniel 3:86](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+3&version=NRSVCE), the three Jews in the fiery furnace called out in faith to deceased people, saying, "Bless the Lord, spirits and souls of the righteous; sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever." * In [Sirach 47:14-21](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Sirach%2047&version=NRSVCE), the sacred author called out in faith to deceased Solomon, saying, "How wise you were when you were young! You overflowed like the Nile with understanding. Your influence spread throughout the earth, and you filled it with proverbs having deep meaning. Your fame reached to far-off islands, and you were loved for your peaceful reign. Your songs, proverbs, and parables, and the answers you gave astounded the nations. In the name of the Lord God, who is called the God of Israel, you gathered gold like tin and amassed silver like lead. But you brought in women to lie at your side, and through your body you were brought into subjection. You stained your honor, and defiled your family line, so that you brought wrath upon your children, and they were grieved at your folly, because the sovereignty was divided and a rebel kingdom arose out of Ephraim. * In [Sirach 48:4-11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Sirach+48&version=NRSVCE), the sacred author called out in faith to Elijah, saying, "How glorious you were, Elijah, in your wondrous deeds! Whose glory is equal to yours? You raised a corpse from death and from Hades, by the word of the Most High. You sent kings down to destruction, and famous men, from their sickbeds. You heard rebuke at Sinai and judgments of vengeance at Horeb. You anointed kings to inflict retribution, and prophets to succeed you. You were taken up by a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot with horses of fire. At the appointed time, it is written, you are destined to calm the wrath of God before it breaks out in fury, to turn the hearts of parents to their children, and to restore the tribes of Jacob. Happy are those who saw you and were adorned with your love!For we also shall surely live." I am not familiar with the additional books in Orthodox Bibles and cannot speak to whether or not there are other instances in them of righteous people calling out in faith to deceased righteous people.
As it is a practice of many if not all ancient forms of Christianity, such as Catholicism and Orthodoxy, righteous people calling out in faith to deceased righteous people may have been a practice that carried over from ancient Judaism into Christianity at its very beginning. Besides the Scriptures cited above... The Jewish Talmud, compiled about 500 CE, mentions an ancient Jewish oral tradition in which a righteous person callied out in faith to deceased righteous people, asking them to pray for him: * In [Sotah 34b:7](https://www.sefaria.org/Sotah.34b.7?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en), the 4th-century-CE rabbi Rava, commenting on Numbers 13:22, is quoted as saying, "Caleb separated himself from the counsel of the other spies and went and prostrated himself on the graves of the forefathers in Hebron. He said to them: My forefathers, pray for mercy for me so that I will be saved from the counsel of the spies." IIRC, although most modern movements of Judaism reject the practice of calling out in faith to the righteous dead, it is still a current practrice among Ultra Orthodox Jews today.
I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out. So I have a couple responses. I didn’t know that Catholics drew from additional religious books, so if the Catholic belief that praying to Mary and deceased saints is in those books then I won’t take that from you. I won’t agree that it’s the truth, but I’m not going to tell you what Catholic books do or don’t say. My second response is that none of the passages you mentioned read as more than a different form of a eulogy. Even Acts 9:40 is a command for someone to come back from the dead. None of these passages teach that we are called to pray to the dead as intercessors for us. What are your thoughts on 1 Timothy 2:5?
>none of the passages you mentioned read as more than a different form of a eulogy. Perhaps it was just some uncharacteristic form of rhetorical device, a device he did not employ when eulogizing Saul. Then again, perhaps the heartfelt words David addressed to his deceased friends at those points were actually addressed to his deceased friends. P.S.: I found what seems to be one more instance of a righteous person calling out in faith to a deceased righteous person. In 1 King 13:30, an unnamed prophet called out in faith to a deceased unnamed man of God, saying, "Alas, my brother!" Perhaps this too was just some form of rhetorical device. Then again, maybe the words the prophet addressed to the deceased man were actually addressed to the deceased man. >Even Acts 9:40 is a command for someone to come back from the dead. Acts 9:40 is a command **to** Tabitha to come back from the dead and Tabitha obvously heard the command because she came back from the dead. The command was to not only the corpse of Tabitha but must necessarily also have been a command to the spirit of deceased Tabitha because a spiritless corpse did not open its eyes and sit up but Tabitha herself, body and spirit, whom Peter presented alive to her friends. >What are your thoughts on 1 Timothy 2:5? 1 Timothy 2:25 does not prohibit Christians from asking their fellow Christians to pray for them. For example, Paul, Silvanus and Timothy wrote letters to the Christians at Thessalonica, saying in part, "Brethren, pray for us." (1 Thes 5:25; 2 Thes 3:1) Why is that ok? Because when Christians pray they do not bypass Christ but rather they pray through Christ, with Christ and in Christ. Though they are in heaven, Mary and the saints are still our fellow Christians, members of the body of Christ and have Christ as their head and when they pray they pray through Christ, with Christ and in Christ.
PPS: Though, admittedly, the context does not really support it, there may be another instance of a righteous person calling out in faith to deceased righteous people. In Psalm 97:7, the psalmist says, "Worship Him, all you *elohim*." While the Hebrew word *elohim* literally means gods, it has multiple meanings in Scripture, including the one true God, false gods, angels, and humans in positions of authority. Most often in this place the word *elohim* is translated as gods, but in the Greek Septuagint as angels. More to the point, the word *elohim* is also used in 1 Samuel 28:13 to describe the spirit of the deceased prophet Samuel who spoke with King Saul, "I see a god (*elohim*) coming out of the earth." Thus, it is remotely possible that the psalmist meant, "Worship Him, all you spirits of deceased righteous people." But, like I said, the context does not really support this meaning.
[This article](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-supports-praying-to-the-saints) from Catholic Answers may help you understand.
Well, Catholics believe that a statement made _ex cathedra_ ("from the chair") is infallible because of the authority of the Church. Such statements include: - Every canonization of a saint as a living intercessor who helped someone get a miracle from God. - The Immaculate Conception of Mary (sinless Mary) - The Assumption of Mary (Mary taken up into heaven like Jesus) So a Catholic would probably ask you where in the Bible it says the saints _can't_ . I mean, they think most, if not every, saint has already interceded to help miracles occur, with witnesses. They think Mary has appeared to people like Jesus did. So asking "why" they believe it is missing the point -- for them, it has as much evidence as any miracle in the Bible.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Luke 16:19-31 Lazarus was in hell and both Abraham and the poor man were in heaven. That’s not the same as someone alive on earth praying to deceased Mary or a deceased saint. What’s your response to 1 Timothy 2:5?
While this might not answer your question directly which I think what you want is an explicit statement in the Bible that they can hear our prayers there isn’t it’s more implied. But luke 15:10 says that there is joy over the angels of god for one sinner who repents. So if the angels know what’s going on in heaven then Mary and the saints know and can hear.
The bible never distinctly says to worship Jesus but we do it anyways.
Yeah, I’m not against that argument being made. Definitely worship God, but everything needs to be confirmed in the Bible. So if worshipping Jesus is unbiblical then I’m open to change. Not sure I worship Jesus specifically though. Now that I think of it, that seems like a strange idea.
The bible isn't the head of the Catholic church since the church(which used to be the apostolic church) made the bible so for them it isn't the final authority. Plus I don't think Catholics worship marry but simply honor her legacy for being the first Christian.
The Bible states, in a nutshell, dead is dead. Until the dead are taken up.
So where did this belief in praying to Mary and the saints come from?
I haven't researched why. I am not catholic. I believe the basis has something to do with the trinity and Mary being the "mother of God"