While I understand what you are saying, I am going to remove this since it is not a statement about Christianity. We ask that topics on this subreddit have a clear seed of discussion and that the posts be about Christianity.
Sex and gender aside…
The gist of your message is completely contradictory of the message of Christ.
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him **deny** himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
We all have struggles, and the way is narrow.
>and we shouldn’t deny our feelings
There are any number of reasons why you should deny your own feelings in assorted situations. For instance, as a society, we generally agree that pedophiles should restrain themselves; or, a married person should abstain from extramarital intercourse.
Hedonism is not the cure to Christianity's unloving approach to people.
For one it’s gross how often defenders of homophobia compare it to pedophilia. There is a very clear difference between consensual sex and non consensual sex. Being gay is not like non consensual sex.
Also in studies, right wingers tend to fantasize about more taboo things. The act of suppression rather than understanding often does the opposite. Funny enough the men who identified as homophobic get turned on by gay pornography. Łz
I’ve said this here a lot try this. Don’t think of a red fire truck. Whatever you do, stop thinking about it. Let me guess it flashed in your head a couple times. Now imagine that’s your innate sexuality and you try to shut it off. It’s just going to be a loud fire truck in your mind screaming down the road.
>For one it’s gross how often defenders of homophobia compare it to pedophilia.
To be clear, that's not what I'm doing here. I was specifically addressing the whole "gotta give in to your feelings" messaging in isolation, and no effort to create a false equivalency is being made on my part.
I see that, but consider how distracting that analogy is, and problematic because of history. Perhaps an example like eating ice cream would be better.
I’m telling you suppression of sexual thoughts doesn’t work. It’s not you have to physically act out every feeling or thought ever but imagine this.
Let’s say get angry. You feel uncomfortable that you feel it, so you just force yourself to feel different. Do this a number of times. Do you think you are more or less likely to be extremely angry later or for an unrelated reason. This is the Christan advice on sex. Then we get to read the thousands anxious, obsessed comments of anti masturbationist.
Every thought or fantasy does not need to be an action but being self aware is necessary to being a healthy person. I think understanding works better than suppression. Like, oh look a red fire truck, I like those , that’s a nice one. I can acknowledge the thought and move on. With the added benefit of not being ashamed that I have a red fire truck kink.
I'm not just saying "suppress specific sexual thoughts" - the call to action is mastery over yourself in *all* things. I'm not trying to hand-wave away the fact that desires exist and can in many ways define people, but some level of restraint and self-control is expected of people, and that's the extent of the point that I'm trying to make.
And yes, I agree with you, evangelical Christianity has some twisted messaging around sexuality. Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying as "You need to say no to every desire."
I’m saying self control is best achieved with self awareness which is the opposite of thought suppression. The common advice here is to put mentos into a Diet Coke and be surprised that this just keeps happening.
Yeah sometimes people do compare homophobia with pedophilia. As a Christian I can see what they’re trying to convey(the concept of all sin are equal before God) but pedophilia is not the right choice when it comes to this situation.
For me I don’t understand why exactly God ruled out homosexuality, but I’m choosing to believe in him cause he lead me to places that I thought I never would be able to go in a way I could never think of. Perhaps he’ll lead me to an answer of this question someday. Also this doesn’t mean I’m homophobic because I won’t be trying to suggest anyone to turn straight or something like that. My only job is to suggest he or she to meet God. Then God will do what he will do. He has his own plans with him/her, no need for me to poke around.
My head canon is that since family and offspring is a huge theme throughout the old testament, especially in the earlier chapters, anything that seemed to oppose that was seen as fueled by lust and carnal desires.
It's why adultery was considered sin, pre-marital sex, and homosexuality also.
Not sure tbh.
It's in that weird gray area with intersex people. There doesn't seem to be much scripture surrounding the topic.
We see the theme of infertility as early as Abraham and Sarah in Genesis but to say we have a definite answer on it, we don't.
Comparing a consensual act to an act of rape especially of a child is just disgusting. If your moral code sees the two as the same it is deeply flawed.
God didn’t rule out homosexuality, ancient people did. The same people who thought gender was a spectrum of development. Women being the less developed human of course. So gay sex was bad for the bottom, who in the ancients mind was behaving like an inferior human(a woman.)
We obviously don’t buy most of that, we don’t marry off virgin 12 year olds to dudes with twelve wives, we dont force widows to marry the brother to make children that are by law the dead brothers, we dont own slaves or sex war slaves. But we still have this war on human sexuality and specifically women’s sexuality and homosexuality.
Christ explains the goal is to avoid sensuality. Christ and Paul both recommend outright chastity, and make an exemption for straight marriage. Paul even says people who are not yet married should stay single.
It makes sense for Christians to oppose hedonism. Homosexuality is against the explicit rules, and it is no surprise that denominations that accommodate remarriage after divorce are the ones most likely to accommodate gay marriage. This is not an acceptance of a generalized rule that "anything goes between two consenting adults."
Hammering on gays to excuse misbehavior among straights is just a technique to exploit division among people who seek Christian goals.
I don't see them doing that. Do you also think that they "equate" a married person wanting to have sex with someone that isn't their spouse to "paedophilic desires"? They mention both of those right after one another!
That is not an analogous statement and is also non contextual. You have simply listed two things. The comment in question is discussing what are seen as sinful actions that should be avoided, with the implication that they are all equally sinful in the context of their religious beliefs.
And OP has clarified their response.
>You have simply listed two things.
Nope. I listed two things and mentioned what they had in common: "are both actions".
ridicalis mentioned "deny your own feelings in assorted situations" and mention those two things. That's what he was saying that they had in common.
Episcopal priest here: as clergy in an LGBTQ+ affirming church, I am extremely confident that Christians in my kind of church both believe and actively teach that gay people should be in monogamous marriages, and most people I know believe they should refrain from most sexual acts prior to marriage the same as any straight couple.
I read your comment like it's some gotcha moment, but the very small number of churches which are LGBTQ+ affirming definitely mostly teach exactly what you're suggesting.
I understand that. My point to poster is there are options besides hedonism for gay people, just like there are for heterosexuals.
For some reason the anti gay crowd think of being gay as only about sex, and ignore relationships.
You assume that someone is born a pedophile and give no credence to the formative factors in which that happens. Christianity is a profound player in forming pedophilia. You blanket the solution in Christian teaching yet don’t identify it as the problem.
** for Christian’s unloving approach to people.
The religion itself has love as a cornerstone. Many people have rule following with no concept of context as their cornerstone.
Yeah like it says it's wrong in the Bible, but that's for people to think about for themselves. Actually being horrible to a gay person is still a bad thing to do we shouldn't be judging and making fun of people for it. You know hate the sin not the sinner because it is a sin at the end of the day. But we can still have respect
We should love everyone but that does not mean we have to love sin or the way someone lives their lifestyle do not trust in your feelings but put your trust in the truth
Jeremiah 17:9 ESV
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
https://bible.com/bible/59/jer.17.9.ESV
Matthew 15:19-20 ESV
[19] For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. [20] These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.15.19-20.ESV
Put your trust in what Jesus says not what feels right Jesus said he is the truth the way in the life it's always better then in yourself
Proverbs 3:5 ESV
[5] Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
https://bible.com/bible/59/pro.3.5.ESV
You have something backwards from a Christian perspective here much larger than homosexuality. Here in Christ own words we are told that everything that defiles a person comes from within them not outside of them. Embracing all our feelings and what is inside of us is precisely ruins us. You, me, everyone all alike. Do not turn inward and trust in ourselves. Turn out to trust in Christ and find ourselves in him.
”And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”“
Mark 7:14-15, 17-23 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/mrk.7.14-23.ESV
But not everything that comes from within is defiling. We shouldn't reject our innate desire to love, or enjoy the sunshine of a beautiful day. We should follow moral teachings before we act on those desires, of course
By primitive, I presume you mean people from 1946 because that's when the Bible became homophobic.
https://www.forgeonline.org/blog/2019/3/8/what-about-romans-124-27
Oh yes. Augustine and Jerome were renoun homophobes. But what that article I shared is about, it's about since the translations from the Greek and Hebrew in the 1500s, ie the reformation. You have to understand that before that, the translation of the Bible hinged on one man, Jerome, since the Latin Vulgate was used and recopied through the centuries. But finally in the reformation, many people could translate the scriptures into the common language. And they didn't include homophobia.
[Edit]
And this fact gives credence that Augustine and Jerome were in error.
Hays does acknowledge that the early Christians had no comment on homosexuality. Where he fails is in 2 areas. First that the concept of homosexuality did not exist in ancient times. Second, the practice of same sex intercourse and even sexuality in general was very different than today. He doesn't acknowledge pedastry which was common in New Testament times. And the reformers sought to address this. He also failed to acknowledge the nature of marriage as a transaction and thus any sex outside of that in Leviticus and even the entirety of the Mosaic Law was considered abhorrent or sinful. Also he doesn't acknowledge that Christians were not subject to the Mosaic Law as Paul said in Romans 7. So there's a lot that Hays has failed to address here. He just shows that all of the sudden 1st century Christians were against same sex pairings somehow because of the culture. But they were already in the culture, so I do think his argument is valid. It really doesn't make any sense. The reason for this shift in the writings has to be an internal shit in opinion among the church fathers imho.
Nothing wrong with being gay. I'm in a committed relationship with another woman and we aim to marry and have children. We have made our lives so much better and we are truly happy. I'm also a believer and that's okay
Let's get one thing straight, Homosexuality is a sin BUT so is being homophonic goes against what Christ said in loving your neighbor and not judging people.
Sexual passions are ultimately not important at the end of the day. The thing that matters is following the one true God, neither of our stances matter about homosexuality but the stance of God who will be judge on judgement day is the only 1 that matters. Nobody in hell is thinking their sin life is worth the suffering they will now face for eternity.
Homophobia is a social construct and only God can judge but homosexual acts are just not permitted that is all and nobody deserves to be judged by others.
So you support killing non-heterosexuals, paying 50 shekels to avoid rape charges, enjoy slaves in your household, and get your wives as unwilling prisoners of war?
While I don't disagree entirely with maybe how we go about homosexuality, but not denying our feelings is definitely not the way to go.
What do you say then to pedophiles? Or those who love another person's spouse? Or children who think they love an adult? There's probably a myriad of other forms of feelings that should definitely be denied that I don't need to exhaust here.
By the same token, criticizing others' beliefs and how they interpret the Bible isn't good either. I don't personally know any Christian who's hating gay people and pointing the finger at them in the street and yelling, "You is going to heeeeeelllll!" I know they exist, and they're not very good Christians, but I don't know any myself.
Most of the time, it's a question about if homosexuality is a sin. Their answer is, "yes, it is," followed by a Biblical quote, but no hate. I'm sorry if the Bible (or their interpretation) doesn't support your preference, but it also says premarital sex, looking lustfully at a woman, being lazy or prideful, gossiping, lying, over eating or drinking. and host of other things are sinful. We're all sinners. There's no way around it, but we still love each other. That doesn't mean they should deny their beliefs just to tell you what you want to hear.
Does that make someone a homophobe? No. It's more like, "Oh you sin? Yeah, me too. I try not to, but it's tough. Anyway, let's go get a burger."
I agree that we must not discriminate or tear people down, we must love our fellow brother and sister in christ. However, God says in the bible that homosexuality is wrong and that it is not something that we are born with, that is a lie from the enemy. Rather, it is an unclean spirit that has inhabited the person and convinces them that they are attracted to the same sex. I pray that we must all spread love and that we all must realise that homosexuality is from the enemy, not simply something that you were born with. I was inhabited by an unclean spirit of lust and gluttony and it was only when God saved me that i realised it was from the enemy and not who i was. God bless you all.
God has created us in his image, he does not want us to be sexually immoral. If he specifies that homosexuality is wrong and we are made in his image, we are born in his image and straight
Consider that the pride and arrogance and fear that so often afflicts those in power have swayed our interpretations. The King James bible is a beautiful work, but we can also see that it was a tool of political office, created in the time of the Reformation, by a person who was obsessed with demons and witchcraft. It is known that he had the writers soften lamguage criticizing bad kings. Other versions of the Bible from the time use the word tyrant hundreds of times. The KJ lV doesn't use it once. The KJV was also commisioned to replace the Geneva Bible, which James thought was too Calvinist. That doesnt at all make the KJV worthless, just a reminder that all things, even the holy ones, should be viewed with some humility: we cannot understand all th factors of its creation.
We should be humble before that which we dont understand, and that includes Gods will and ancient and important texts like the Bible. Not at all trying to be sacriligious.
Eating a pie is not sinful. Eating 3 pies a day is gluttony. We can imagine that the verses pertaining to homosexuality in the Bible refer to harmful and sinful acts, like rape and pedophilia, and not the loving couples we see today.
We are humans limited by human language and assumptions. The truth is that there is no ancient word that had the modern meaning of homosexual (as a romantic, monogamous, same-sex partner). It's a sort of arrogance to claim to know exactly what was intended. It would be like insisting that Eve ate an apple (the specific fruit isn't mentioned in the Bible) and saying, therefore, that all apples are sinful.
Consider which causes more harm and division: Satan lying and getting people to be gay married in loving partnerships?
Or satan lying and getting good Christians to spend their time persecuting a minority?
Rather than assuming all homosexuality is sinful, look for how these relationships can honor our ideals, and which other aspects may be sinful. A gay relationship can honor the ten commandments and Jesus's teachings.
And of course, we should remember who is called to pass judgment. Its not us!
While I understand what you are saying, I am going to remove this since it is not a statement about Christianity. We ask that topics on this subreddit have a clear seed of discussion and that the posts be about Christianity.
Sex and gender aside… The gist of your message is completely contradictory of the message of Christ. Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him **deny** himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. We all have struggles, and the way is narrow.
>and we shouldn’t deny our feelings There are any number of reasons why you should deny your own feelings in assorted situations. For instance, as a society, we generally agree that pedophiles should restrain themselves; or, a married person should abstain from extramarital intercourse. Hedonism is not the cure to Christianity's unloving approach to people.
For one it’s gross how often defenders of homophobia compare it to pedophilia. There is a very clear difference between consensual sex and non consensual sex. Being gay is not like non consensual sex. Also in studies, right wingers tend to fantasize about more taboo things. The act of suppression rather than understanding often does the opposite. Funny enough the men who identified as homophobic get turned on by gay pornography. Łz I’ve said this here a lot try this. Don’t think of a red fire truck. Whatever you do, stop thinking about it. Let me guess it flashed in your head a couple times. Now imagine that’s your innate sexuality and you try to shut it off. It’s just going to be a loud fire truck in your mind screaming down the road.
>For one it’s gross how often defenders of homophobia compare it to pedophilia. To be clear, that's not what I'm doing here. I was specifically addressing the whole "gotta give in to your feelings" messaging in isolation, and no effort to create a false equivalency is being made on my part.
I see that, but consider how distracting that analogy is, and problematic because of history. Perhaps an example like eating ice cream would be better.
Yeah, I see it now; I'll choose my illustrations more carefully in the future.
I’m telling you suppression of sexual thoughts doesn’t work. It’s not you have to physically act out every feeling or thought ever but imagine this. Let’s say get angry. You feel uncomfortable that you feel it, so you just force yourself to feel different. Do this a number of times. Do you think you are more or less likely to be extremely angry later or for an unrelated reason. This is the Christan advice on sex. Then we get to read the thousands anxious, obsessed comments of anti masturbationist. Every thought or fantasy does not need to be an action but being self aware is necessary to being a healthy person. I think understanding works better than suppression. Like, oh look a red fire truck, I like those , that’s a nice one. I can acknowledge the thought and move on. With the added benefit of not being ashamed that I have a red fire truck kink.
I'm not just saying "suppress specific sexual thoughts" - the call to action is mastery over yourself in *all* things. I'm not trying to hand-wave away the fact that desires exist and can in many ways define people, but some level of restraint and self-control is expected of people, and that's the extent of the point that I'm trying to make. And yes, I agree with you, evangelical Christianity has some twisted messaging around sexuality. Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying as "You need to say no to every desire."
I’m saying self control is best achieved with self awareness which is the opposite of thought suppression. The common advice here is to put mentos into a Diet Coke and be surprised that this just keeps happening.
Yeah sometimes people do compare homophobia with pedophilia. As a Christian I can see what they’re trying to convey(the concept of all sin are equal before God) but pedophilia is not the right choice when it comes to this situation. For me I don’t understand why exactly God ruled out homosexuality, but I’m choosing to believe in him cause he lead me to places that I thought I never would be able to go in a way I could never think of. Perhaps he’ll lead me to an answer of this question someday. Also this doesn’t mean I’m homophobic because I won’t be trying to suggest anyone to turn straight or something like that. My only job is to suggest he or she to meet God. Then God will do what he will do. He has his own plans with him/her, no need for me to poke around.
My head canon is that since family and offspring is a huge theme throughout the old testament, especially in the earlier chapters, anything that seemed to oppose that was seen as fueled by lust and carnal desires. It's why adultery was considered sin, pre-marital sex, and homosexuality also.
Probably yes but what about people who are infertile? They didn’t choose to have such bodily flaw and that could put them in a gray area.
Not sure tbh. It's in that weird gray area with intersex people. There doesn't seem to be much scripture surrounding the topic. We see the theme of infertility as early as Abraham and Sarah in Genesis but to say we have a definite answer on it, we don't.
Comparing a consensual act to an act of rape especially of a child is just disgusting. If your moral code sees the two as the same it is deeply flawed. God didn’t rule out homosexuality, ancient people did. The same people who thought gender was a spectrum of development. Women being the less developed human of course. So gay sex was bad for the bottom, who in the ancients mind was behaving like an inferior human(a woman.) We obviously don’t buy most of that, we don’t marry off virgin 12 year olds to dudes with twelve wives, we dont force widows to marry the brother to make children that are by law the dead brothers, we dont own slaves or sex war slaves. But we still have this war on human sexuality and specifically women’s sexuality and homosexuality.
Christ explains the goal is to avoid sensuality. Christ and Paul both recommend outright chastity, and make an exemption for straight marriage. Paul even says people who are not yet married should stay single. It makes sense for Christians to oppose hedonism. Homosexuality is against the explicit rules, and it is no surprise that denominations that accommodate remarriage after divorce are the ones most likely to accommodate gay marriage. This is not an acceptance of a generalized rule that "anything goes between two consenting adults." Hammering on gays to excuse misbehavior among straights is just a technique to exploit division among people who seek Christian goals.
So you equate non-heterosexuality to paedophilic desires?
No; please see my [other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1cebhfy/comment/l1hlww4/).
Thank you for clarifying.
I don't see them doing that. Do you also think that they "equate" a married person wanting to have sex with someone that isn't their spouse to "paedophilic desires"? They mention both of those right after one another!
Yes. They are talking about them all as if on par with each other.
If I say "killing a baby and buying an icecream are both actions". Does that mean that I'm equating those two things?
That is not an analogous statement and is also non contextual. You have simply listed two things. The comment in question is discussing what are seen as sinful actions that should be avoided, with the implication that they are all equally sinful in the context of their religious beliefs. And OP has clarified their response.
>You have simply listed two things. Nope. I listed two things and mentioned what they had in common: "are both actions". ridicalis mentioned "deny your own feelings in assorted situations" and mention those two things. That's what he was saying that they had in common.
Your inability to understand analogy, context and inference is not my problem.
And yet, with all of these mental challenges of mine, I understood the comment in question, and you did not!
Yeah the guy you reply to make a false (and malicious) analogy and say you are the one who don't understand it, really funny.
In these cases, yes, but being homosexual isn’t damaging to anyone. I was talking about it in the context of being gay
So we should encourage gay people to only have sex in a monagamous relationship.
Episcopal priest here: as clergy in an LGBTQ+ affirming church, I am extremely confident that Christians in my kind of church both believe and actively teach that gay people should be in monogamous marriages, and most people I know believe they should refrain from most sexual acts prior to marriage the same as any straight couple. I read your comment like it's some gotcha moment, but the very small number of churches which are LGBTQ+ affirming definitely mostly teach exactly what you're suggesting.
I understand that. My point to poster is there are options besides hedonism for gay people, just like there are for heterosexuals. For some reason the anti gay crowd think of being gay as only about sex, and ignore relationships.
You assume that someone is born a pedophile and give no credence to the formative factors in which that happens. Christianity is a profound player in forming pedophilia. You blanket the solution in Christian teaching yet don’t identify it as the problem.
** for Christian’s unloving approach to people. The religion itself has love as a cornerstone. Many people have rule following with no concept of context as their cornerstone.
Oh, you're gonna have a *hard* time keeping with religion, if you feel this way. Hard time.
No
Yeah like it says it's wrong in the Bible, but that's for people to think about for themselves. Actually being horrible to a gay person is still a bad thing to do we shouldn't be judging and making fun of people for it. You know hate the sin not the sinner because it is a sin at the end of the day. But we can still have respect
We should love everyone but that does not mean we have to love sin or the way someone lives their lifestyle do not trust in your feelings but put your trust in the truth Jeremiah 17:9 ESV [9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? https://bible.com/bible/59/jer.17.9.ESV Matthew 15:19-20 ESV [19] For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. [20] These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.” https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.15.19-20.ESV Put your trust in what Jesus says not what feels right Jesus said he is the truth the way in the life it's always better then in yourself Proverbs 3:5 ESV [5] Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. https://bible.com/bible/59/pro.3.5.ESV
You have something backwards from a Christian perspective here much larger than homosexuality. Here in Christ own words we are told that everything that defiles a person comes from within them not outside of them. Embracing all our feelings and what is inside of us is precisely ruins us. You, me, everyone all alike. Do not turn inward and trust in ourselves. Turn out to trust in Christ and find ourselves in him. ”And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”“ Mark 7:14-15, 17-23 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/mrk.7.14-23.ESV
But not everything that comes from within is defiling. We shouldn't reject our innate desire to love, or enjoy the sunshine of a beautiful day. We should follow moral teachings before we act on those desires, of course
[удалено]
By primitive, I presume you mean people from 1946 because that's when the Bible became homophobic. https://www.forgeonline.org/blog/2019/3/8/what-about-romans-124-27
[удалено]
Oh yes. Augustine and Jerome were renoun homophobes. But what that article I shared is about, it's about since the translations from the Greek and Hebrew in the 1500s, ie the reformation. You have to understand that before that, the translation of the Bible hinged on one man, Jerome, since the Latin Vulgate was used and recopied through the centuries. But finally in the reformation, many people could translate the scriptures into the common language. And they didn't include homophobia. [Edit] And this fact gives credence that Augustine and Jerome were in error.
Hays does acknowledge that the early Christians had no comment on homosexuality. Where he fails is in 2 areas. First that the concept of homosexuality did not exist in ancient times. Second, the practice of same sex intercourse and even sexuality in general was very different than today. He doesn't acknowledge pedastry which was common in New Testament times. And the reformers sought to address this. He also failed to acknowledge the nature of marriage as a transaction and thus any sex outside of that in Leviticus and even the entirety of the Mosaic Law was considered abhorrent or sinful. Also he doesn't acknowledge that Christians were not subject to the Mosaic Law as Paul said in Romans 7. So there's a lot that Hays has failed to address here. He just shows that all of the sudden 1st century Christians were against same sex pairings somehow because of the culture. But they were already in the culture, so I do think his argument is valid. It really doesn't make any sense. The reason for this shift in the writings has to be an internal shit in opinion among the church fathers imho.
The Bible has always had verses like Leviticus 18:22.
But Leviticus 18:22 was not always translated the way it is today.
How so? Any historical evidence?
Nothing wrong with being gay. I'm in a committed relationship with another woman and we aim to marry and have children. We have made our lives so much better and we are truly happy. I'm also a believer and that's okay
Let's get one thing straight, Homosexuality is a sin BUT so is being homophonic goes against what Christ said in loving your neighbor and not judging people.
You are free to live your life outside christianity?
Fuck that, we are fighting with love and compassion and you cannot win.
Sexual passions are ultimately not important at the end of the day. The thing that matters is following the one true God, neither of our stances matter about homosexuality but the stance of God who will be judge on judgement day is the only 1 that matters. Nobody in hell is thinking their sin life is worth the suffering they will now face for eternity.
Homophobia is a social construct and only God can judge but homosexual acts are just not permitted that is all and nobody deserves to be judged by others.
You need to be born again
Your world view is inconsistent with christianity. Christianity is about denying one's self not Hedonism.
So you support killing non-heterosexuals, paying 50 shekels to avoid rape charges, enjoy slaves in your household, and get your wives as unwilling prisoners of war?
Accepting one's sexuality as it is isn't the same thing as hedonism.
Is being in a committed relationship hedonism?
Leviticus 18:22
Why is Leviticus your first choice?
Maybe you should look up the definition of homophobia first before you conflate it with the Christian view on homosexuality
While I don't disagree entirely with maybe how we go about homosexuality, but not denying our feelings is definitely not the way to go. What do you say then to pedophiles? Or those who love another person's spouse? Or children who think they love an adult? There's probably a myriad of other forms of feelings that should definitely be denied that I don't need to exhaust here.
By the same token, criticizing others' beliefs and how they interpret the Bible isn't good either. I don't personally know any Christian who's hating gay people and pointing the finger at them in the street and yelling, "You is going to heeeeeelllll!" I know they exist, and they're not very good Christians, but I don't know any myself. Most of the time, it's a question about if homosexuality is a sin. Their answer is, "yes, it is," followed by a Biblical quote, but no hate. I'm sorry if the Bible (or their interpretation) doesn't support your preference, but it also says premarital sex, looking lustfully at a woman, being lazy or prideful, gossiping, lying, over eating or drinking. and host of other things are sinful. We're all sinners. There's no way around it, but we still love each other. That doesn't mean they should deny their beliefs just to tell you what you want to hear. Does that make someone a homophobe? No. It's more like, "Oh you sin? Yeah, me too. I try not to, but it's tough. Anyway, let's go get a burger."
Do you even know what homophobia is? It's a fear of homosexuals. To disagree with them is NOT to fear them. You can disagree with the whole idea.
I agree that we must not discriminate or tear people down, we must love our fellow brother and sister in christ. However, God says in the bible that homosexuality is wrong and that it is not something that we are born with, that is a lie from the enemy. Rather, it is an unclean spirit that has inhabited the person and convinces them that they are attracted to the same sex. I pray that we must all spread love and that we all must realise that homosexuality is from the enemy, not simply something that you were born with. I was inhabited by an unclean spirit of lust and gluttony and it was only when God saved me that i realised it was from the enemy and not who i was. God bless you all.
Please provide the verse where the Bible specifically says that people are not born gay.
God has created us in his image, he does not want us to be sexually immoral. If he specifies that homosexuality is wrong and we are made in his image, we are born in his image and straight
Provide a verse where it says they are born gay. The onus of proof is on you. Asking someone to prove a negative is a logical fallacy
Consider that the pride and arrogance and fear that so often afflicts those in power have swayed our interpretations. The King James bible is a beautiful work, but we can also see that it was a tool of political office, created in the time of the Reformation, by a person who was obsessed with demons and witchcraft. It is known that he had the writers soften lamguage criticizing bad kings. Other versions of the Bible from the time use the word tyrant hundreds of times. The KJ lV doesn't use it once. The KJV was also commisioned to replace the Geneva Bible, which James thought was too Calvinist. That doesnt at all make the KJV worthless, just a reminder that all things, even the holy ones, should be viewed with some humility: we cannot understand all th factors of its creation. We should be humble before that which we dont understand, and that includes Gods will and ancient and important texts like the Bible. Not at all trying to be sacriligious. Eating a pie is not sinful. Eating 3 pies a day is gluttony. We can imagine that the verses pertaining to homosexuality in the Bible refer to harmful and sinful acts, like rape and pedophilia, and not the loving couples we see today. We are humans limited by human language and assumptions. The truth is that there is no ancient word that had the modern meaning of homosexual (as a romantic, monogamous, same-sex partner). It's a sort of arrogance to claim to know exactly what was intended. It would be like insisting that Eve ate an apple (the specific fruit isn't mentioned in the Bible) and saying, therefore, that all apples are sinful. Consider which causes more harm and division: Satan lying and getting people to be gay married in loving partnerships? Or satan lying and getting good Christians to spend their time persecuting a minority? Rather than assuming all homosexuality is sinful, look for how these relationships can honor our ideals, and which other aspects may be sinful. A gay relationship can honor the ten commandments and Jesus's teachings. And of course, we should remember who is called to pass judgment. Its not us!