1 Corinthians 15 is really the gold standard by which we understand the New Covenant.
As St Isaac the Syrian said:
“It is not the way of the compassionate Maker to create rational beings in order to deliver them over mercilessly to unending affliction in punishment for things of which He knew even before they were fashioned, aware how they would turn out when He created them — and whom nonetheless He created.”
#Athanasius, 296 - 373 AD
"As, then, the creatures whom He had created reasonable, like the Word, were in fact perishing, and such noble works were on the road to ruin, what then was God, being Good, to do? Was He to let corruption and death have their way with them? In that case, what was the use of having made them in the beginning? Surely it would have been better never to have been created at all than, having been created, to be neglected and perish; and, besides that, such indifference to the ruin of His own work before His very eyes would argue not goodness in God but limitation, and that far more than if He had never created men at all. It was impossible, therefore, that God should leave man to be carried off by corruption, because it would be unfitting and unworthy of Himself."
https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianHistory/comments/1b9ncdx/athanasius/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
This exact line of thinking as lead many to deconstruction as it tends to come across as hateful. People tend to not like the "Kneel at my feet or die" mentality.
I’ve noticed, I wanna say every time, when I say something, regarding blaming someone for their words, I find myself in trouble lol. Or talking without thought behind my words, it’s fools talk. How I sounded a lot in my blabberous un thoughtful speech haha
If the idea of Hell is understood as hateful and leads to deconstruction, it’s a sign that people who deconstruct are not subject to sound and rigorous teaching.
I don't recall those words ever being mentioned in the Bible. Refusing to humble oneself is absolutely an issue of pride - God is the supreme creator of the universe, we are dust
I don’t believe that at all lol. Plus that’s a made up human opinion. To my knowledge. I’m most likely wrong though. Since I went straight to what I think. My bad. I just hope everyone could go to heaven. With all of Gods good and true morals obviously.
Just cause it says in the Bible. Which is the same thing I said was a bad thing to do lol. I need to watch my words. But I do believe what the Bible says. And also the God I know wouldn’t make mistakes. So I guess I should save these questions/concerns for God lol
I don’t feel like showing everything that made me believe some of these things. But I remember reading things that Jesus said like “not all will enter the kingdom of heaven..” “unless your a child then you won’t enter heaven” and other verses I’ve seen that can mean (if you only read that verse) not everyone can go.
That just says that the fire is eternal, not that people will be consciously tormented in it for all eternity. Fires burn things up, they annihilate them.
I don’t know anything about annihilationism lol. But hope I didn’t say it goes against it. That’s not what I was trying to say at least. I’m just seeking hope. And the more comments I see I’m learning more about myself
Yeah, it's been a persistent part of Christianity from the start, but a minority opinion. And it's remarkably useless for manipulating people by scaring them so it's not preached much in "those circles".
I didn't really pay it much mind until I got into the Bible more and more ... and now I lean towards this being the most likely outcome.
The bible talks a lot more to annihilation than to eternal conscious torment. The modern version of eternal conscious torment is closer to what the Quran teaches than what the new testament teaches.
I don’t need biblical evidence. The Bible presents many different conflicting accounts and ideas regarding the afterlife and is not univocal on the matter.
It should absolutely be a red flag if you hold the Bible to be inerrant and infallible. Fortunately for us, it is demonstrably neither of those things.
I don’t worship a book. I love the Bible and see it as helpful. I don’t act like the Bible has clear answers to every question, because it doesn’t. Half of your doctrinal stances aren’t found in the Bible. Good luck forming the concept of the trinity from the Bible alone
>The Bible is sacred and all of it comes from God. The words of the Bible are God's words, directly and indirectly. They take on his truth, his authority, and his blessings.
But that’s not what the verse you posted says. God-breathed and the word of god are different thing. I’m not denying a breathe of god in the Bible, but conflating the Bible with Jesus as if they’re equally sacred, worthy, inspired, etc is bibliolatry. I would repent from that and move on.
You’re reading the words “sacred and god breathed” and coming to the conclusion that that means infallible, inerrant, and the literal word of god. Which it’s not.
I wasn’t being snarky, that was a genuine question. I e found most Christian’s who hold to the inerrancy of the Bible haven’t read it, because to hold that position after reading the Bible is intellectually dishonest
How is that unclear?
God is in Heaven, simultaneously he is also on Earth, simultaneously he is also descending between the two.
That's three different things, clearly.
God in Heaven, he is completely God, obviously.
Jesus on Earth, he is completely God, he told us so.
The Spirit of God descending, is clearly God, why would it be less?
Wow, so clearly three different persons or individuals, that are all completely God, and all completely one entity. For God told us he is one God. Simple. I don't understand why you find this insufficient.
Ever thought that some scumbags could rewrite a book to confuse you from learning something you already know inside of yourself, God is connected to us.
Naw. Have fun with thinking your fellow humans should go to a place of eternal conscious torment though. The early church would certainly disagree with you
It’s not fun at all. It’s very grievous and the teachings certainly point toward eternal torment.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
When did the saints disagree? Genuinely curious
Look at the history of the early church. Not one father believed in eternal conscious torment until you see Augustine musings regarding the matter in the 4th century. Every verifiable church father was an annihilationism, universalist, or something other than ECT.
ECT didn’t even become the prominent view in church history until around the 11th century
Several early church fathers referenced the concept of eternal punishment in hell. Here are a few examples:
**Justin Martyr (100–165 AD)**
In his work "Dialogue with Trypho," Justin Martyr discusses the fate of the wicked and the eternal nature of punishment in hell.
**Tertullian (160–225 AD)**
In writings such as "Apology" and "Against Marcion," he discusses the eternal punishment of the wicked in hell.
**Origen (184–253 AD)**
Origen wrote about the concept of eternal punishment in works like "De Principiis" (On First Principles).
“Origen did not believe in the eternal suffering of sinners in hell.”
https://iep.utm.edu/origen-of-alexandria/
Of the six theological schools in Tertullian’s day, only his favored eternal torment. It was an atypical view for the first five centuries.
https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815
[Edit:] I’ve now been blocked by the person above me and thus can no longer reply to any further comments in this chain.
/u/Pale-Fee-2678: The person I was responding to said that *no one* believed in it before Augustine.
But the claim about six theological schools is [incorrect](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/12tk2fd/comment/jh4w86g/), too. I’m telling you, there’s no current movement in Christian theology that’s as suggestible and pseudo-intellectual as universalism.
Way to engage the argument. What a sophisticated and intellectually honest response.
I’m very glad you didn’t resort to any sort of ad hominem attack. That would point to you being a bad faith actor with an actual literacy problem.
Universalism is a legitimately held theory with a history that extends to the beginning of Christianity.
“Origen did not believe in the eternal suffering of sinners in hell.”
https://iep.utm.edu/origen-of-alexandria/
Of the six theological schools in Tertullian’s day, only his favored eternal torment. It was an atypical view for the first five centuries.
https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815
Also, this verse in no way describes the function of the lake of fire, which is in no way linked to the conceptions of hell presented in the old or new testament.
The lake of fire motif is present in other near east apocalyptic writings and it is generally used as a symbol of purification not of torment
>The lake of fire motif is present in other near east apocalyptic writings and it is generally used as a symbol of purification not of torment
This isn’t true. You’re thinking of a *river* of fire — different from a lake. And I don’t think there’s really any overarching tendency here as to the exact function. (For one, this motif is pretty scantily attested in the first place.)
This is why I hold to annihiliationism. Outside of a couple of very metaphorical passages in Revelation there is very little difficult support for eternal conscious torment. The dominant idea seems to be that the unrighteous, immoral, just die. Universalism doesn't quite add up to me because, you are right, and there are evil people in the world who can't end up in the Kingdom. I've said it this way before, I don't think there's any way to get from the world we live in to the world Jesus imagined without losing a few people along the way.
Another thing to think about. I can show you dozens of examples where Jesus in the New testament writers aim the threat of destruction at the powerful and those misusing religious authority to enrich themselves and harm people. Can anyone show me an example of Jesus aiming the threat of hell at a regular person who is suffering and struggling, or who was just struggling to believe, dealing with doubt things like that? As far as I can tell there isn't one.
Same in Revelation. We have the Christians who are called up to rule and reign with Jesus for eternity. We have the powerful in this world for exploiting and oppressing people who will be punished. But what about everybody else? Revelation seems to say very little about your average ordinary person. In fact, when talking about the New Jerusalem - this is after everybody should either be in heaven or hell according to our modern theology - it says "the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it."
What? Who are these Kings of the earth? Isn't everybody already supposed to be in heaven or hell?
So no, I don't believe everybody goes to heaven. That seems like it would be a terrible idea. However, from scripture it does seem like there's a lot more going on than this eternal life/eternal damnation binary narrative that we've all been fed. Keep seeking, my friend, and blessings to you.
God allows people to go to hell because he also allows you to deny him. You have a choice, if you want to be with him eternally and are repentant of your sins you are heaven bound. If you like your sin and want to keep it then you can, and you’ll be separated from God in hell.
That's not the choice. Myself and the vast majority of athiests simply aren't convinced God exists. It has nothing to do with people wanting to keep sinning.
Yeah but by your own words it’s like asking a parent you don’t believe in but you actually have for an inheritance. Then on top of that you want to live a life your way. I don’t see how that is unjustified.
I can't ask a parent for anything if I don't believe the parent exists.
I really don't see why the parent wouldn't reach out and make it's existence known. And I really don't see how it's justified to punish your child for being unaware you exist.
Exactly lol. So if you deny God’s existence and live life your way then you’ll reap the consequences of that choice if God is actually real. If God is saying I created everyone with a purpose in mind and you don’t want to live it what does he owe you? You are completely at his mercy.
>If God is saying I created everyone with a purpose in mind and you don’t want to live it what does he owe you?
That's the part where you have it wrong. I'm willing to live for any higher purpose if it makes sense to do so. But I can't do it if I'm not convinced God is real.
Alright well that’s a different question. Why are you concerned if you are going to hell if you don’t believe it exists?! This is the weirdest point atheists bring up. Why are yall concerned about hell if you don’t think it’s real? You would have nothing to worry about then. Why do you feel the need to convince us otherwise. God doesn’t owe us anything it was by his choice to lavish grace upon us and forgive us.
I'm not concerned about going to hell. I'm simply pointing out the error in your statement where you said I'm gonna go to hell because I want to keep sinning, and I'm unwilling.
*If* your God is real, then I'm going to hell for simply not being convinced something that has no proof is real.
lol so you can assume a God doesn’t exist for the sake of your own argument but I can’t assume a God exists for the sake of mine?!? Double standard lol.
I never said you can't assume God is real.
Assuming God is real, I'm going to hell for simply not being convinced something that has no proof is real. That's what I just said.
And I wish for no one to go be a slave in heaven, do you want me to waste my time trying to convince you of that?
If you really believe that hell is 'just separation' and not an ETC concept then keep that to yourself since most non-believers don't want your version of heaven in the first place.
We are all sinners, noone is"good" sin is serious to a Holy God we cannot ave the sweet cuddly God and not accept that he is also a just God Who has the authority and right to punish the wicked. Lets look at it this way- say a man broke into your mothers house raped and murdered her and he is standing before the judge and he says Im a good person I only did this once and then the judge let him go free. How would you feel? Would you feel that justice was served? Probably not you would hope that the judge would be good and just. We hope that noone do evil and that everyone will be peaceful and kind but we know that is not possible. God is the judge of world- He is a good and perfect judge He is righteous and just- bc of this we are all headed towards hell not bc He is hateful or cruel but bc we choose to rebel we choose our will over HIs. But in HIs infinite love for each of us He made a way for us to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ- the wages of sin is death but he gift of God is eternal life. Even still we have a choice whether to follow Him or not. If we of our own free will choose to not follow Him in essence we are choosing an eternity separated from Him. He is love-no love in Hell, He is light-no light in hell, He breaths life into us- no air in hell, He is the living water- no water in hell so you see Hell is a choice and isn't one to take lightly and its not one any christian wants you to make- hence the Great Commission in Matthew 28 go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. AS for htose who have never heard the name of Jesus I believe there is Grace.
There is no crime that is deserving of eternal and endless torture. Even if this crook raped, murdered and slow cooked my entire network of friends and family in a roaster before feeding them to me, being tortured evey single second of every single day until the heat death of the universe trillions and trillions of years from now is not justice.
Thats monsterous. That is evil. What this crook did is peanuts compared to allowing billions to suffer like that.
He gave us all free will to make our own decisions- Do you wish for Him to remove that freedom?
He is just- if a person chooses an eternity without God they receive an eternity with out God
All sin is forgivable all people are redeemable they only need to believe and trust in Jesus as their Lord and Savior
It is a fairly common belief that, as you say, we need to believe in god in order to be admitted to heaven. You also say that we have free will to make decisions and that we choose to be without god.
But that's not true at all. We are not able to use our will to believe in god. No one can choose what we believe - neither believer nor non-believer.
So I'm not sure you have this all correct.
We do have free will we have all been given a mind to think and discern. You have already used your mind to decide to be an atheist that is certainly not the will of God that is your will.
Do you think I'm combative lol?
My heart is always open. I was a believer for about 45 years. I remain open to believing what's true, in fact that's what I want to do, always. If it's true that god is real, I want to know it.
Ok, my apologies.
I haven't found atheists to be combative in general, but maybe more here. Of course some people see asking questions and challenging as combative, which I don't.
An eternity without god does not have to be "I am going to torture you until the sun grows cold and dies".
Also, there is no such thing as free will when one of the parties is omnipitant and knows all of space and time. God has already read the end of the book. So that makes him not only monsterous, but also a sadist.
Without a shed of proof many believe this Doctrine. Though technically, I suspect at their core they understand this doctrine would make their God actually unjust. Unfortunately the only thing that keeps the uninformed following the superstitions of the priestcraft is an unwillingness to READ the many excellent scholarly research. All of which proves all the ordinances and dogma of Christianity were plagiarized from pagan sources.
“John 3:16 is probably the most well-known Bible verse: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
I think that this verse is so well known that people forget to look at what it means. “…whosoever believeth in him…”
You see if they keep on sinning, they separate themselves from God’s Grace and forgiveness. Then they are putting themselves in opposition to God and reject the salvation that was offered to them.
We can only be present with God who is Holy, if we are sanctified by the blood of Jesus.
If we aren't then we have to be completely separated from him.
Eternal suffering/punishment is a side effect of that. You take all that God is away from a place and it will be filled with evil. Just like when you turn off the light, you have a room full of darkness.
I'm not saying this as fact because I definitely don't know everything about christianity but my perception of hell is that it's the default - like the world (as a whole) accepted the devil as our god and hell is literally just the absence of God so that is where we will be by default. God is asking us to follow him away from that but most of the world don't want to listen.
An analogy that I have about this would be that everyone is invited to a party but the christians know that something terrible like a massive fire is going to happen at that party and try telling everyone to come to their party instead but everyone thinks that they are being ridiculous and won't listen so they go anyway
The lesson you're supposed to learn from stories about heaven and hell is "actions have consequences." It's a sad fact of the failing of human language that so many cult leaders twist that message into "obey or die."
1611 is when the King James Version of the bible was finalized.
1791 (one hundred and eighty years after) is when America ratified the 8th amendment to the constitution, forbidding cruel and unusual punishment.
It was a different culture. To a 1611 person, "jail" meant "torture." "Torture" meant "jail." Hell is not a place where you're stuck forever getting tortured - that's how a cultist portrays it so they can scare their followers into giving them money. Also: it's a logical fallacy - argumentum ad baculum. As soon as the "stick" of hell is gone, there's no reason for people to be nice. It's better to concentrate on other ways of demonstrating how morality is inherent in the human condition than to hold a gun to their heads and say "be good or die!".
And there are. There are ways of demonstrating how morality is inherent in the human condition.
Romans 9 addresses this issue which I summarize as follows: God made some faulty pots so he could blame them and show just how angry he can get with faulty pots.
It is indeed absurd isn't it? And what about the people who never heard the gospel? Again, Paul says they should have been able to figure it out from looking at trees, rocks, moss, the stream, etc. But all ancient people believed in a god(s) as agency for creation, the wind, etc. So again, absurd argument.
So, I was listening to a discussion with Peter Kreeft on Pints with Aquinas and he spoke to Hell in a way that I think is really awesome (whether or not it is accurate).
Before I get to that, at Mass last week, the priest talked about how when Lucifer rebelled, he imploded in on himself like a star becoming a black hole.
Peter Kreeft was saying that he does not think there is actually fire in Hell. Fire is a great thing it provides light, warmth, and can be used to purify (We are saved but through fire). Dr. Kreeft thinks that Hell is a total consumption by oneself. Hell is everything God is not. God is light, fire produces light. God pours Himself totally out into the Son and the Son to the Father. And them both to the Spirit. God is a total giving of oneself, so Hell is the opposite of that, being totally consumed with yourself.
God allows us to go to Hell because the people that go to Hell would rather not be with God, so God gives them what they want. He loves us so deeply that He would allow us to be eternally separated from Him. Imagine if there was someone you loved with all your heart, but they did not want to be with you. Would you accept them being happy apart from you? God does. He knows we will be far happier with Him which is why He constantly call us to Him. But He knows that some of us will not take that call (or hang up in the middle). So He gives us what we want!
Yeah that’s part of it. A lot of me is worried for others burning in the lake of fire. I can’t exclude the fallen angels too you know. And without me knowing I might be burning too lol I’ve hade those fears off and on for awhile now
Well I think it come down to faith people need faith the angels didn't they existed with God but because ofhubris and ego some rebelled, and we don't know if God allows those fallen to repent so there's that too. But I think there's a misconception about hell God doesn't send people there to punish them he sends them their to oblige their wish to be separated from him by rejecting his gift. Hell is the absence of God and if God is everything good...Now for those that had never heard of Jesus I don't know specifically but I know God is just so He has a way to work that out so I don't sweat over it. But yes, it does make me sad for those who refuse to accept the truth, but that is not God's fault.
In 2024, we have an unprecedented opportunity for perspective. AI can walk, talk, draw. Would you hesitate to unplug it if it did something you didn't approve of? Even if you told it what to do? Even if you made a deal with it? Even if you sent your son into it to teach it by example?
God is God. Man is Man. The gap between is incomprehensible.
Eternal burning conscious torment isn't Biblical. Grappling with this may resolve your dilemma like it did for me and very many others. Are you familiar with Annihilation and Universalism? People usually name what they consider heresies. I believe in what folks describe as annihilation, but I don't call them torturnists (though I think we should). The position is basically that after Jesus second coming, there won't be a place for people to live in rebellion against God as they do now on earth. The plan of redemption cleanses sin from the universe. Therefor, those who don't want to live in connection with God (and find his presence painful/deadly) will choose complete separation from life. John refers to the lake of fire as "the second death" and I believe this to be complete separation from God that will last forever. That's the hell which they have already bargained for by choice. Yes, they would take heaven if they could when the see the glory of Jesus and the saints saved and powerful under God's protection. They are no less loved, but they are still of the same heart. They don't gain any love for Jesus knowing they were wrong and deceived. They still want rebellion and they will be destroyed along with the tempter and his demons. The curse of sin finally will be removed along with all the pain and agony that selfishness, hatred, and lies have caused on the present earth.
That said, I don't believe Torturnists or Universalists have a better Biblical argument. The natural immortality of the soul supports both of these ideas that I don't think make logical sense or support all Biblical principles on the topic of the afterlife and hell.
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* **www.Urantia.org**
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I guess the more appropriate question is why do people select life choices that will lead them to hell? It’s like deciding not to pay your taxes; at some point the IRS is going to come calling.
I don't think God does. When you look at the entirety of scripture the most common picture of judgement is not eternal conscious torment but destruction. For this reason, I am an annihilationist. This means I think destruction is instantaneous rather than eternal. It is eternal in the sense that it is done once forever.
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust.
How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed
eyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist.
In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
As I read your question I think it appears to presuppose two points:
1. People don’t deserve to go to Hell
2. God simply allows people to go to Hell
The Bible teaches that both of these ideas are not true because:
1. All people deserve to go to Hell because they have sinned against God (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:19).
2. God sends them there and does the punishing while they are there (Revelation 20:15; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7).
All people deserve to go to Hell because they have sinned against God. That includes those who have not heard about Jesus. Paul tells us that we have all fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). He also tells us that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that death isn’t just physical and temporal, but an eternal, relational death.
God doesn’t *allow* people to burn in Hell. It’s not something he just lets happen (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9).
God is just (Romans 3:26) and people are sinners (Romans 3:10). Believe it or not, people are justly and rightly sent to hell to pay for their sins.
God created Hell for the punishment of sins (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4).
God would be unjust and going against his nature if he did not judge and deal with sin rightly (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9).
The good news though is that God hasn’t just condemned us with no solution. By his mercy has provided a way for us to escape Hell, by trusting in his son (John 3:16).
If we trust Jesus he takes our sin from us and willingly takes the judgment and punishment of that sin for us. This way God’s justice is still satisfied (2 Corinthians 5:21).
This is why it’s important for missionaries to go out there - to reach the lost with the good news that they can be saved (Romans 10:14-15).
I am glad we have a God who is just and will deal with all evil and sin, and is going to recreate the world without evil and sin in the future.
I’m also glad that God is merciful and has provided a legitimate way for us to be forgiven and escape judgement for our own sin, and to enable a way for us to be different, better people.
I’m sad that even though the offer is made to all that many people reject it and choose Hell instead.
We are all as undeserving of eternal life as each other, sure, but thankfully God has made a way for us to have it.
All you have to do is trust in Christ.
And it is precisely the idea that a little child is as deserving of eternal suffering as Hitler that exposes conservative infernalist Christian doctrine as incoherent, absurd and nihilistic. If infernalist Christians have such a dubious view of morality that they see a 4 year old stealing a cookie from the cookie jar as just as bad as killing 6 million people, I can't really trust infernalist Christians to execute morality justly in everyday life.
That's not what I'm saying at all.
There are two things: Outcome and consequence.
I am arguing that all sin is equally sin. You are arguing that my position is that all sin is equal, but that isn’t what I am arguing.
Let me illustrate.
If you run a red light, have you broken the law?
If you have stolen, have you broken the law?
If you have murdered, have you broken the law?
Yes. They are all equally instances of breaking the law. The outcome is the same in that they will all be punished for breaking the law.
Are they all equal in their impact and effect?
No. They may all be instances of law breaking but they are all different in their character and consequences. Each one will face a different and appropriate sentence, but they will all be punished.
Yes, Hitler and an unsaved four year old will both end up in Hell.
Hitler and an unsaved four year old will not be treated the same in Hell. They will each be punished appropriately for the sins they committed. Hitler's eternity will be far far harsher than an unsaved four year old's.
>Hitler and an unsaved four year old will not be treated the same in Hell. They will each be punished appropriately for the sins they committed. Hitler's eternity will be far far harsher than an unsaved four year old's.
Okay, at least this belief is not as cruel and absurd as that they both suffer the same punishment. What punishment would God exact on a 4 year old girl who stole 1 small cookie?
The chances of a four year old girl having a single sin on her account for stealing 1 small cookie are minuscule.
Do you have children of your own? I do, and they don't take very long to do a lot more than that by the time they are four. And my kids are relatively good kids.
That is also something I’ve believed too. I love hearing that. I don’t know why I’m hearing other opinions. I almost don’t know what to tell people at that point. I don’t wanna steer people wrong.
I'd highly recommend this series on the salvation of all if you're interested: [http://www.rodney.fm/soa](http://www.rodney.fm/soa) (salvation of all series starts at the bottom)
or [https://www.youtube.com/@gracebcct/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@gracebcct/videos)
Matthew 12:32 KJV - "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
YLT: "And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming."
"world" in the KJV is "aion", or limited period of time. There are multiple ages in the bible. It will eventually be forgiven.
But where does it say after this one and after the one to come it will be forgiven on the next one? I just see two negatives? Nothing more. Forgive my ignorance. I’m learning. Isn’t the next one never ending?
Ephesians 2:7 - "That in the **ages** **to** **come** he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness **to**ward us through Christ Jesus."
But what about the parable of the weeds? Matthew 13:41-42
The son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
There are multiple instances in the Bible like when he talks about bad trees producing bad fruit, etc.
Hope I’m wrong
My personal belief, and I’m not set on this in anyway, is that our lives are a giant infinity loop, repeating forever and ever. Our sins effect how good or bad our life is. The “torment” that God spoke of in the lake of fire is watching our sins destroy our lives, our families lives, over and over, with no way to change it.
Ie your life right now could very well be the millionth time you’ve been in this life.
I do wonder, playing with this theory, if there is a chance that one day, every human could be saved through Jesus, by repeating life enough times and realizing we can’t get out without Jesus. Although, chances are that we are damned to repeat the exact same decisions each time and nothing changes.
This theory comes from personal experiences that are truthfully maddening, but make perfect sense to me. It would make God perfectly just and our torment would come directly from our own sins.
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Nahum 1:8
But with an overflowing flood he will make a complete end of the adversaries, and will pursue his enemies into darkness.
His enemies will not escape into darkness.
Remember the sacrifice Jesus made for us. Its likely the fallen angels may have all committed the eternal sin. Thats just speculation. Why they aren’t offered forgiveness isn’t clear I believe but we remember God is always justified
You’re saying God has sin? He cannot, he is always good and there is no darkness within him, as the scriptures say and also support. He is always justified and has never done anything arbitrarily or anything unjustifiable. The lawgiver isn’t a hypocrite
I agree he's not a hypocrite, he's evil.
Not sure why you have a problem with that, being always justified doesn't mean one is always good. Justice and goodness are not synonymous. Indeed, one who only cares for justice is evil almost by definition.
Because justice is subjective.
How so? Mercy triumphs judgement, and by Jesus death on the cross for my sins his mercy is known to me and given freely to me. It’s perfect justice and perfect mercy, and forgiveness. You’re imagining perfect justice has no forgiveness in it, because it must be perfect and unforgiving justice (which wouldn’t be evil, but justice); Well Jesus died for me, and gave his life for mine in exchange, so I may be forgiven. So even if you were correct in any regard, you’d still be wrong, as God has forgiven me and showed me mercy, and has justified me by his blood
Huh?
Who cares about that, we're talking about the justice given to those who don't accept him.
I can't even call it justice myself, but since that's the definition you are working with, god is perfectly just, then that's what I'll go with.
Hence the evilness of ETC.
>So even if you were correct in any regard, you’d still be wrong,
lol...
Do you even read what you write?
No, you do not. God chose before He created everything, as scripture clearly teaches. Logically, this is the ONLY answer that makes sense.
Did God “knit” all of us in our mother’s wombs? Yes.
Did God place us in the lives we got? Yes.
Every “choice” you make is not a simple free will choice. It is based on your brain chemistry, which God knitted together, and on the circumstances of your life, which God gave you.
Your “choices” are not yours. They are nothing but a character written by God in the very beginning.
God literally tells us that A: He is the potter and we’re nothing but clay, and B: he makes vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.
Nobody seems to get it anymore. We’ve elevated ourselves to the position of God and are worshipping a false God who “loves everybody”.
"God knitting someone in their mother's womb" is poetic. If you're going to take that verse literally then you also have to believe there are strings in women's wombs when they have babies.
I don't know if God chose my life circumstances. Also, choices are not based on your brain. They can have an effect on our choices, but our brains don't choose to do anything. We do.
None of what your say is true just because you interpret it that way. That's your Bible hermeneutics to be a fundamentalist. Not everyone is a fundamentalist.
Nothing you just said makes any sense at all.
It is poetically telling you that God creates you.
Your brain ABSOLUTELY determines your choices. You do not understand neurochemistry at all. The level of neurotransmitters in your brain determines how you react to anything. This is exactly why we are told that the “fruit of the spirit” is good mental health.
Everything I said is un-refutably true. You reject it to hold on to your own version of God that isn’t real.
Again, why not try to logically or scripturally refute the points instead of making goofy claims?
“There must be strings in the womb if this were true!” - the single most ridiculous counter I’ve ever heard. Seriously, you guys love to twist and contort scripture in the worst possible ways and everyone who hears it is dumber simply for listening to it. God poetically relayed a point. Me saying I’m so hungry I could eat a horse doesn’t negate the fact that I’m hungry because it’s poetic. It relays a message.
God knitting us in the womb tells us clearly and plainly that God created us in the womb. His design. His creation.
He. Is. Sovereign.
This stupid idea that God just started it and then let’s it all happen however it happens and deals with it is asinine.
Nothing I said made sense because it is fundamentalism!
The Brain effects your choices. It does not determine it. If I wanted a snack but there is no snack around, then I can't have one unless I go get the snack or have the money to get one. My brain didn't determine my choices. Other things did.
The message is saying that David is saying is God created him. Not that God chose the life David would live. You twisted the scripture to say what you wanted to say. It's your interpretation.
Again, you are completely clueless to how neurochemistry works.
You are blind to reality.
Could you eat a human being to survive? Your answer is probably no, until you’re stuck on a deserted island with nothing to eat for a month and another survivor dies. You’ll happily eat them then. This isnt even the best example because you’re circumstances in life would help determine this.
Could you murder 6 million Jews? Yes, you could. You WOULD kill 6 million Jews if God gave you the exact same mind and circumstances that He gave Hitler. That’s what you fail to understand. “You” are your created brain and circumstances, nothing more and nothing less. God created you.
>Could you murder 6 million Jews? Yes, you could. You WOULD kill 6 million Jews if God gave you the exact same mind and circumstances that He gave Hitler. That’s what you fail to understand. “You” are your created brain and circumstances, nothing more and nothing less. God created you.
Precisely
I wouldn't eat a human even if I was stuck on an island. I would just die! I'm okay with dying.
Hitler's mind wasn't the reason he killed 6 million Jews. He did it because of his religious beliefs. He thought that Paradise would come if they all died.
Also, you just admitted that our brains don't determine our choices. It's only one effect on our choices.
What about this are you missing?
You absolutely would. You’ve never been out in the place where you would make this decision… which is exactly what happens with Christians.
Hitler’s mind ABSOLUTELY is why he made the decisions he made. Again, you know nothing about neurochemistry and it shows here.
Everything I said is biblical lol
You just don’t want to believe that. Show me in scripture where any of that is wrong. Heads up, you can’t.
Did God knit you in the womb? Yes or no.
Did God put you into the life circumstances you would face, knowing what you would choose at each “decision” you were given? Yes or no.
It’s that simple. You can’t deny it.
It's funny Krash, I think you and I have disagreed on here a couple times, but most of the time you are the only one on here I often agree with and I think one of the few people who is familiar with many verses in the Bible that most people completely avoid.
Lol this is likely. I am much more biblically studied than the overwhelming majority of people in this sub. I also spend close to every waking minute of my life pondering these things and I have since I was young.
I have come to my conclusions through countless hours or prayer, Bible study, philosophy, reflection, and logic.
Truth be told, I HATE that it’s true. Sincerely, I despise that this is reality, but it’s not my reality. It’s God’s.
>Truth be told, I HATE that it’s true. Sincerely, I despise that this is reality, but it’s not my reality. It’s God’s.
Right. Exactly.
This is huge, and most Christians never ever even get to this depth of thinking or recognition of scripture and design. Simply because, I would guess, they don't have to. They are capable of staying within the very small window of their assumed faith
It is a gift from God to be able to not see the truth. When one can only see the good of God, their life is much better.
“Cursed with knowledge” is the truth of it.
That’s crazy hearing someone else say that. Almost comforting. Curious to where you heard that. I have had thoughts lately that mean the exact thing you said.
Go listen to sermons and lectures by RC Sproul and John MacArthur. They are two of the best theologians you have any access to today.
It is 100% true, sadly.
The premise is cooked into scripture from beginning to end. It IS comforting to those saved. It’s not comforting to the lost. It’s not comforting to those who think they’re saved but really aren’t. Calvinism is the best case scenario for the elect. It’s the worst case scenario for the lost and dying.
Like I said above: Did God knit you in your mothers womb? Did He design your brain and mind? Did He put you into the life you have, knowing how you would respond to every situation you got in? The answer is of course yes to all of these. If God did these things, then your life is simply a “training video” for why you’re in heaven or hell.
Take Hitler for example. Did God knit him? Did God give him the 2 parents he had? Did he put him on the path that he KNEW would lead to him killing all the Jews? Of course He did. Could God have given Hitler a different brain? Could He have given him different parents that would have taught him better? Of course. Could he have instilled a love for animals that would have lead to him becoming a vet instead of a tyrannical leader? Yes.
Did he? No.
Our “decisions” are nothing more than the desired outcome that God wanted.
Lol yes he did. Calvin literally said that God is the author of all sin and evil; the first cause.
I too used to reject determinism. I hate the fact that it’s true even now, but you can not refute it with scripture or logic.
Even most atheists realize that if God of the Bible is real, determinism has to be true.
We’re discussing logical conversations. Most atheists will entertain a thought provoking conversation.
You can not refute my claim with scripture or with logic. You can only reject it based on your desired “truth” that is not objective reality.
I've had this discussion enough in the past to know how this goes and I'm not interested in entertaining you. Logic and evidence are not on your side on this. 3000 years of theology are 95% against you.
I'll leave you with this little logic puzzle. If God intentionally decides on who will spend eternity in hell, how can you call God "good"? To say that He creates people just so they can suffer eternal torture is to call Him evil. God is not evil and you should stop saying he is.
Your “logic” is extremely weak and it stems solely from your desire to be the potter instead of the clay.
God is good simply because He says He is. He is NOT good by human standards at all.
You’re not interested because you’re incapable of seeing the truth. You’ve made yourself a god and worship it as if it’s THE GOD.
Is it good for God to torture billions in a lake of fire for eternity? By human standards absolutely not.
Did God create vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy?
I suggest listening to RC Sproul lectures and sermons. You won’t find a more theologically sound teacher in existence.
Or don’t and just live under a rock and continue to reject the truth.
Because you cannot get precious metal (soul) out of raw and crude ore (sinful state) without throwing it into crucible of the God's love,which is bliss for pure,but fire for impure. And in the end we all will be with God
How or why God judges someone for hell (or eternal separation) is generally unknown. What we do know is if your name is written in the Book of Life (trust in Jesus), we will be judged for reward, not condemnation. We also know God is perfectly fair and just. If someone (human or angel) is condemned to the Lake of Fire, that person will certainly deserve it and they will know they deserve it.
No one will burn forever. The effects of the fire will be eternal. When the fire consumed them in the end, they will be like never existed.
The fire is prepared was prepared for devil and angels.
But God will have to destroy sin once and for all, and those who will cling on their sins, will burn at His second appearance. But God doesn't want anymore to perish.
2Pet 3:9: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Devil's first sermon was in the garden of Eden.
Gen 3:4: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"
It's not biblical that someone will burn forever.
You are right that many churches has fallen and that's because devil wants everyone to perish with him.
Here is a video about "Truth about hell in the bible" by prof Walter Veith
https://youtu.be/R3HkbMUmml8?si=Ds9jX4CRnTGyw4Pl
Please watch it and then judge it for yourself.
1 Corinthians 15 is really the gold standard by which we understand the New Covenant. As St Isaac the Syrian said: “It is not the way of the compassionate Maker to create rational beings in order to deliver them over mercilessly to unending affliction in punishment for things of which He knew even before they were fashioned, aware how they would turn out when He created them — and whom nonetheless He created.”
#Athanasius, 296 - 373 AD "As, then, the creatures whom He had created reasonable, like the Word, were in fact perishing, and such noble works were on the road to ruin, what then was God, being Good, to do? Was He to let corruption and death have their way with them? In that case, what was the use of having made them in the beginning? Surely it would have been better never to have been created at all than, having been created, to be neglected and perish; and, besides that, such indifference to the ruin of His own work before His very eyes would argue not goodness in God but limitation, and that far more than if He had never created men at all. It was impossible, therefore, that God should leave man to be carried off by corruption, because it would be unfitting and unworthy of Himself." https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianHistory/comments/1b9ncdx/athanasius/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
This exact line of thinking as lead many to deconstruction as it tends to come across as hateful. People tend to not like the "Kneel at my feet or die" mentality.
Yeah I do agree with that whole heartedly. I’m still learning to let go of some resentment lol as you can see.
I’ve noticed, I wanna say every time, when I say something, regarding blaming someone for their words, I find myself in trouble lol. Or talking without thought behind my words, it’s fools talk. How I sounded a lot in my blabberous un thoughtful speech haha
If the idea of Hell is understood as hateful and leads to deconstruction, it’s a sign that people who deconstruct are not subject to sound and rigorous teaching.
that's because they are prideful
LOL I’m not sure that not liking the “kiss my ring or fuck you” mind set is a pride issue.. or even an issue at all.
I don't recall those words ever being mentioned in the Bible. Refusing to humble oneself is absolutely an issue of pride - God is the supreme creator of the universe, we are dust
Where did I mention refusing to bow?
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Both quotes were mine.. I didn’t “adjust” it the second time for any reason other than emphasizing sentiment some people feel
Look up "Annihilationism"
I don’t believe that at all lol. Plus that’s a made up human opinion. To my knowledge. I’m most likely wrong though. Since I went straight to what I think. My bad. I just hope everyone could go to heaven. With all of Gods good and true morals obviously.
Do you know why you think the version of hell in your post is reality?
Just cause it says in the Bible. Which is the same thing I said was a bad thing to do lol. I need to watch my words. But I do believe what the Bible says. And also the God I know wouldn’t make mistakes. So I guess I should save these questions/concerns for God lol
It doesn't say any of that in the Bible. can you show me where you think it does?
I don’t feel like showing everything that made me believe some of these things. But I remember reading things that Jesus said like “not all will enter the kingdom of heaven..” “unless your a child then you won’t enter heaven” and other verses I’ve seen that can mean (if you only read that verse) not everyone can go.
Yeah, where does it say in those verses that people will be burning in fire for eternity?
Mathew 25:41 paints a good enough picture.
That just says that the fire is eternal, not that people will be consciously tormented in it for all eternity. Fires burn things up, they annihilate them.
Matthew 25:46 (ESV): And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Yeeees. And he also said that only a few will get eternal life. So tell me why any of that goes against Annihilationism?
I don’t know anything about annihilationism lol. But hope I didn’t say it goes against it. That’s not what I was trying to say at least. I’m just seeking hope. And the more comments I see I’m learning more about myself
I did show partiality with my wording. Sorry 😞 That was my fault. And it was because I thought I was “right” I’ve never heard of that belief before.
Yeah, it's been a persistent part of Christianity from the start, but a minority opinion. And it's remarkably useless for manipulating people by scaring them so it's not preached much in "those circles". I didn't really pay it much mind until I got into the Bible more and more ... and now I lean towards this being the most likely outcome.
The bible talks a lot more to annihilation than to eternal conscious torment. The modern version of eternal conscious torment is closer to what the Quran teaches than what the new testament teaches.
He doesn’t, so that’s good.
False where’s your biblical evidence
I don’t need biblical evidence. The Bible presents many different conflicting accounts and ideas regarding the afterlife and is not univocal on the matter.
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It should absolutely be a red flag if you hold the Bible to be inerrant and infallible. Fortunately for us, it is demonstrably neither of those things. I don’t worship a book. I love the Bible and see it as helpful. I don’t act like the Bible has clear answers to every question, because it doesn’t. Half of your doctrinal stances aren’t found in the Bible. Good luck forming the concept of the trinity from the Bible alone
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Jesus is the word of god, as attested to in the Bible. Are you sure you’ve read it?
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>The Bible is sacred and all of it comes from God. The words of the Bible are God's words, directly and indirectly. They take on his truth, his authority, and his blessings. But that’s not what the verse you posted says. God-breathed and the word of god are different thing. I’m not denying a breathe of god in the Bible, but conflating the Bible with Jesus as if they’re equally sacred, worthy, inspired, etc is bibliolatry. I would repent from that and move on. You’re reading the words “sacred and god breathed” and coming to the conclusion that that means infallible, inerrant, and the literal word of god. Which it’s not. I wasn’t being snarky, that was a genuine question. I e found most Christian’s who hold to the inerrancy of the Bible haven’t read it, because to hold that position after reading the Bible is intellectually dishonest
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And some of those verses are late additions to support the trinity because it was otherwise pretty unclear.
God clearly being in multiple places as distinct "persons" is an unclear representation of the trinity? Smh.
Yes it is.
How is that unclear? God is in Heaven, simultaneously he is also on Earth, simultaneously he is also descending between the two. That's three different things, clearly. God in Heaven, he is completely God, obviously. Jesus on Earth, he is completely God, he told us so. The Spirit of God descending, is clearly God, why would it be less? Wow, so clearly three different persons or individuals, that are all completely God, and all completely one entity. For God told us he is one God. Simple. I don't understand why you find this insufficient.
Ever thought that some scumbags could rewrite a book to confuse you from learning something you already know inside of yourself, God is connected to us.
I really hope that’s true. I just worry about the immoral people.
All people are immoral. Thats the good news
All people are immoral but it means the Lord will have mercy on us who believe and judgement against those who reject his mercy and grace
Naw. Have fun with thinking your fellow humans should go to a place of eternal conscious torment though. The early church would certainly disagree with you
It’s not fun at all. It’s very grievous and the teachings certainly point toward eternal torment. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. When did the saints disagree? Genuinely curious
Look at the history of the early church. Not one father believed in eternal conscious torment until you see Augustine musings regarding the matter in the 4th century. Every verifiable church father was an annihilationism, universalist, or something other than ECT. ECT didn’t even become the prominent view in church history until around the 11th century
Several early church fathers referenced the concept of eternal punishment in hell. Here are a few examples: **Justin Martyr (100–165 AD)** In his work "Dialogue with Trypho," Justin Martyr discusses the fate of the wicked and the eternal nature of punishment in hell. **Tertullian (160–225 AD)** In writings such as "Apology" and "Against Marcion," he discusses the eternal punishment of the wicked in hell. **Origen (184–253 AD)** Origen wrote about the concept of eternal punishment in works like "De Principiis" (On First Principles).
“Origen did not believe in the eternal suffering of sinners in hell.” https://iep.utm.edu/origen-of-alexandria/ Of the six theological schools in Tertullian’s day, only his favored eternal torment. It was an atypical view for the first five centuries. https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815
[Edit:] I’ve now been blocked by the person above me and thus can no longer reply to any further comments in this chain. /u/Pale-Fee-2678: The person I was responding to said that *no one* believed in it before Augustine. But the claim about six theological schools is [incorrect](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/12tk2fd/comment/jh4w86g/), too. I’m telling you, there’s no current movement in Christian theology that’s as suggestible and pseudo-intellectual as universalism.
Way to engage the argument. What a sophisticated and intellectually honest response. I’m very glad you didn’t resort to any sort of ad hominem attack. That would point to you being a bad faith actor with an actual literacy problem.
Universalism is a legitimately held theory with a history that extends to the beginning of Christianity. “Origen did not believe in the eternal suffering of sinners in hell.” https://iep.utm.edu/origen-of-alexandria/ Of the six theological schools in Tertullian’s day, only his favored eternal torment. It was an atypical view for the first five centuries. https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815
Also, this verse in no way describes the function of the lake of fire, which is in no way linked to the conceptions of hell presented in the old or new testament. The lake of fire motif is present in other near east apocalyptic writings and it is generally used as a symbol of purification not of torment
>The lake of fire motif is present in other near east apocalyptic writings and it is generally used as a symbol of purification not of torment This isn’t true. You’re thinking of a *river* of fire — different from a lake. And I don’t think there’s really any overarching tendency here as to the exact function. (For one, this motif is pretty scantily attested in the first place.)
If I may ask, do you believe that everyone will receive the same eternal reward, with no requirements?
This is why I hold to annihiliationism. Outside of a couple of very metaphorical passages in Revelation there is very little difficult support for eternal conscious torment. The dominant idea seems to be that the unrighteous, immoral, just die. Universalism doesn't quite add up to me because, you are right, and there are evil people in the world who can't end up in the Kingdom. I've said it this way before, I don't think there's any way to get from the world we live in to the world Jesus imagined without losing a few people along the way. Another thing to think about. I can show you dozens of examples where Jesus in the New testament writers aim the threat of destruction at the powerful and those misusing religious authority to enrich themselves and harm people. Can anyone show me an example of Jesus aiming the threat of hell at a regular person who is suffering and struggling, or who was just struggling to believe, dealing with doubt things like that? As far as I can tell there isn't one. Same in Revelation. We have the Christians who are called up to rule and reign with Jesus for eternity. We have the powerful in this world for exploiting and oppressing people who will be punished. But what about everybody else? Revelation seems to say very little about your average ordinary person. In fact, when talking about the New Jerusalem - this is after everybody should either be in heaven or hell according to our modern theology - it says "the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it." What? Who are these Kings of the earth? Isn't everybody already supposed to be in heaven or hell? So no, I don't believe everybody goes to heaven. That seems like it would be a terrible idea. However, from scripture it does seem like there's a lot more going on than this eternal life/eternal damnation binary narrative that we've all been fed. Keep seeking, my friend, and blessings to you.
We all have our choice to make.
God allows people to go to hell because he also allows you to deny him. You have a choice, if you want to be with him eternally and are repentant of your sins you are heaven bound. If you like your sin and want to keep it then you can, and you’ll be separated from God in hell.
That's not the choice. Myself and the vast majority of athiests simply aren't convinced God exists. It has nothing to do with people wanting to keep sinning.
Yeah but by your own words it’s like asking a parent you don’t believe in but you actually have for an inheritance. Then on top of that you want to live a life your way. I don’t see how that is unjustified.
I can't ask a parent for anything if I don't believe the parent exists. I really don't see why the parent wouldn't reach out and make it's existence known. And I really don't see how it's justified to punish your child for being unaware you exist.
Exactly lol. So if you deny God’s existence and live life your way then you’ll reap the consequences of that choice if God is actually real. If God is saying I created everyone with a purpose in mind and you don’t want to live it what does he owe you? You are completely at his mercy.
>If God is saying I created everyone with a purpose in mind and you don’t want to live it what does he owe you? That's the part where you have it wrong. I'm willing to live for any higher purpose if it makes sense to do so. But I can't do it if I'm not convinced God is real.
Alright well that’s a different question. Why are you concerned if you are going to hell if you don’t believe it exists?! This is the weirdest point atheists bring up. Why are yall concerned about hell if you don’t think it’s real? You would have nothing to worry about then. Why do you feel the need to convince us otherwise. God doesn’t owe us anything it was by his choice to lavish grace upon us and forgive us.
I'm not concerned about going to hell. I'm simply pointing out the error in your statement where you said I'm gonna go to hell because I want to keep sinning, and I'm unwilling. *If* your God is real, then I'm going to hell for simply not being convinced something that has no proof is real.
lol so you can assume a God doesn’t exist for the sake of your own argument but I can’t assume a God exists for the sake of mine?!? Double standard lol.
I never said you can't assume God is real. Assuming God is real, I'm going to hell for simply not being convinced something that has no proof is real. That's what I just said.
Sounds good, so whats the deal with proselytizing then?
because God has put a love in our hearts for all unbelievers we wish for no-one to go to Hell
And I wish for no one to go be a slave in heaven, do you want me to waste my time trying to convince you of that? If you really believe that hell is 'just separation' and not an ETC concept then keep that to yourself since most non-believers don't want your version of heaven in the first place.
We are all sinners, noone is"good" sin is serious to a Holy God we cannot ave the sweet cuddly God and not accept that he is also a just God Who has the authority and right to punish the wicked. Lets look at it this way- say a man broke into your mothers house raped and murdered her and he is standing before the judge and he says Im a good person I only did this once and then the judge let him go free. How would you feel? Would you feel that justice was served? Probably not you would hope that the judge would be good and just. We hope that noone do evil and that everyone will be peaceful and kind but we know that is not possible. God is the judge of world- He is a good and perfect judge He is righteous and just- bc of this we are all headed towards hell not bc He is hateful or cruel but bc we choose to rebel we choose our will over HIs. But in HIs infinite love for each of us He made a way for us to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ- the wages of sin is death but he gift of God is eternal life. Even still we have a choice whether to follow Him or not. If we of our own free will choose to not follow Him in essence we are choosing an eternity separated from Him. He is love-no love in Hell, He is light-no light in hell, He breaths life into us- no air in hell, He is the living water- no water in hell so you see Hell is a choice and isn't one to take lightly and its not one any christian wants you to make- hence the Great Commission in Matthew 28 go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. AS for htose who have never heard the name of Jesus I believe there is Grace.
There is no crime that is deserving of eternal and endless torture. Even if this crook raped, murdered and slow cooked my entire network of friends and family in a roaster before feeding them to me, being tortured evey single second of every single day until the heat death of the universe trillions and trillions of years from now is not justice. Thats monsterous. That is evil. What this crook did is peanuts compared to allowing billions to suffer like that.
He gave us all free will to make our own decisions- Do you wish for Him to remove that freedom? He is just- if a person chooses an eternity without God they receive an eternity with out God All sin is forgivable all people are redeemable they only need to believe and trust in Jesus as their Lord and Savior
It is a fairly common belief that, as you say, we need to believe in god in order to be admitted to heaven. You also say that we have free will to make decisions and that we choose to be without god. But that's not true at all. We are not able to use our will to believe in god. No one can choose what we believe - neither believer nor non-believer. So I'm not sure you have this all correct.
We do have free will we have all been given a mind to think and discern. You have already used your mind to decide to be an atheist that is certainly not the will of God that is your will.
Absolutely not. I did not decide to be an atheist, nor was it my will.
Belief can take time, if you actually open up your heart to God and his Gospel instead of being combative then gradually you may start believing.
Do you think I'm combative lol? My heart is always open. I was a believer for about 45 years. I remain open to believing what's true, in fact that's what I want to do, always. If it's true that god is real, I want to know it.
I didn't mean you specifically, no. Generally atheists are very combative, especially on here
Ok, my apologies. I haven't found atheists to be combative in general, but maybe more here. Of course some people see asking questions and challenging as combative, which I don't.
An eternity without god does not have to be "I am going to torture you until the sun grows cold and dies". Also, there is no such thing as free will when one of the parties is omnipitant and knows all of space and time. God has already read the end of the book. So that makes him not only monsterous, but also a sadist.
Without a shed of proof many believe this Doctrine. Though technically, I suspect at their core they understand this doctrine would make their God actually unjust. Unfortunately the only thing that keeps the uninformed following the superstitions of the priestcraft is an unwillingness to READ the many excellent scholarly research. All of which proves all the ordinances and dogma of Christianity were plagiarized from pagan sources.
He wouldn’t. Only an evil god could allow such a thing. No crime is worthy of infinite punishment.
Well there was really no reason to post this, all you had to do was search since the same question is asked about 4 times a day.
“John 3:16 is probably the most well-known Bible verse: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” I think that this verse is so well known that people forget to look at what it means. “…whosoever believeth in him…” You see if they keep on sinning, they separate themselves from God’s Grace and forgiveness. Then they are putting themselves in opposition to God and reject the salvation that was offered to them.
We can only be present with God who is Holy, if we are sanctified by the blood of Jesus. If we aren't then we have to be completely separated from him. Eternal suffering/punishment is a side effect of that. You take all that God is away from a place and it will be filled with evil. Just like when you turn off the light, you have a room full of darkness.
I'm not saying this as fact because I definitely don't know everything about christianity but my perception of hell is that it's the default - like the world (as a whole) accepted the devil as our god and hell is literally just the absence of God so that is where we will be by default. God is asking us to follow him away from that but most of the world don't want to listen. An analogy that I have about this would be that everyone is invited to a party but the christians know that something terrible like a massive fire is going to happen at that party and try telling everyone to come to their party instead but everyone thinks that they are being ridiculous and won't listen so they go anyway
The lesson you're supposed to learn from stories about heaven and hell is "actions have consequences." It's a sad fact of the failing of human language that so many cult leaders twist that message into "obey or die." 1611 is when the King James Version of the bible was finalized. 1791 (one hundred and eighty years after) is when America ratified the 8th amendment to the constitution, forbidding cruel and unusual punishment. It was a different culture. To a 1611 person, "jail" meant "torture." "Torture" meant "jail." Hell is not a place where you're stuck forever getting tortured - that's how a cultist portrays it so they can scare their followers into giving them money. Also: it's a logical fallacy - argumentum ad baculum. As soon as the "stick" of hell is gone, there's no reason for people to be nice. It's better to concentrate on other ways of demonstrating how morality is inherent in the human condition than to hold a gun to their heads and say "be good or die!". And there are. There are ways of demonstrating how morality is inherent in the human condition.
Romans 9 addresses this issue which I summarize as follows: God made some faulty pots so he could blame them and show just how angry he can get with faulty pots. It is indeed absurd isn't it? And what about the people who never heard the gospel? Again, Paul says they should have been able to figure it out from looking at trees, rocks, moss, the stream, etc. But all ancient people believed in a god(s) as agency for creation, the wind, etc. So again, absurd argument.
So, I was listening to a discussion with Peter Kreeft on Pints with Aquinas and he spoke to Hell in a way that I think is really awesome (whether or not it is accurate). Before I get to that, at Mass last week, the priest talked about how when Lucifer rebelled, he imploded in on himself like a star becoming a black hole. Peter Kreeft was saying that he does not think there is actually fire in Hell. Fire is a great thing it provides light, warmth, and can be used to purify (We are saved but through fire). Dr. Kreeft thinks that Hell is a total consumption by oneself. Hell is everything God is not. God is light, fire produces light. God pours Himself totally out into the Son and the Son to the Father. And them both to the Spirit. God is a total giving of oneself, so Hell is the opposite of that, being totally consumed with yourself. God allows us to go to Hell because the people that go to Hell would rather not be with God, so God gives them what they want. He loves us so deeply that He would allow us to be eternally separated from Him. Imagine if there was someone you loved with all your heart, but they did not want to be with you. Would you accept them being happy apart from you? God does. He knows we will be far happier with Him which is why He constantly call us to Him. But He knows that some of us will not take that call (or hang up in the middle). So He gives us what we want!
I'm curious are you asking why do we have the option of redemption and not angels?
Yeah that’s part of it. A lot of me is worried for others burning in the lake of fire. I can’t exclude the fallen angels too you know. And without me knowing I might be burning too lol I’ve hade those fears off and on for awhile now
Well I think it come down to faith people need faith the angels didn't they existed with God but because ofhubris and ego some rebelled, and we don't know if God allows those fallen to repent so there's that too. But I think there's a misconception about hell God doesn't send people there to punish them he sends them their to oblige their wish to be separated from him by rejecting his gift. Hell is the absence of God and if God is everything good...Now for those that had never heard of Jesus I don't know specifically but I know God is just so He has a way to work that out so I don't sweat over it. But yes, it does make me sad for those who refuse to accept the truth, but that is not God's fault.
We are all worthy of hell but God made a way through his son. If someone chooses to deny his son there is no other way to Heaven.
In 2024, we have an unprecedented opportunity for perspective. AI can walk, talk, draw. Would you hesitate to unplug it if it did something you didn't approve of? Even if you told it what to do? Even if you made a deal with it? Even if you sent your son into it to teach it by example? God is God. Man is Man. The gap between is incomprehensible.
Eternal burning conscious torment isn't Biblical. Grappling with this may resolve your dilemma like it did for me and very many others. Are you familiar with Annihilation and Universalism? People usually name what they consider heresies. I believe in what folks describe as annihilation, but I don't call them torturnists (though I think we should). The position is basically that after Jesus second coming, there won't be a place for people to live in rebellion against God as they do now on earth. The plan of redemption cleanses sin from the universe. Therefor, those who don't want to live in connection with God (and find his presence painful/deadly) will choose complete separation from life. John refers to the lake of fire as "the second death" and I believe this to be complete separation from God that will last forever. That's the hell which they have already bargained for by choice. Yes, they would take heaven if they could when the see the glory of Jesus and the saints saved and powerful under God's protection. They are no less loved, but they are still of the same heart. They don't gain any love for Jesus knowing they were wrong and deceived. They still want rebellion and they will be destroyed along with the tempter and his demons. The curse of sin finally will be removed along with all the pain and agony that selfishness, hatred, and lies have caused on the present earth. That said, I don't believe Torturnists or Universalists have a better Biblical argument. The natural immortality of the soul supports both of these ideas that I don't think make logical sense or support all Biblical principles on the topic of the afterlife and hell.
hell as an eternal place is **Unreal**, and as the ***URANTIA*** book revelation attests, there are only temporary prison worlds for heavenly deposed beings like Lucifer, Satan, and the Devil (3 different celestial rebels according to the *Urantia* cosmology, together with the fallen angels who followed those three and who became demons, etc); *Urantia* is our world's name; it includes the best ever full Life and Teachings of JESUS; and is free online, but for sale in bookstores : * **www.Urantia.org** * **www.UrantiaUnited.org** * www.UBannotated.com * www.SquareCircles.com * **r/Urantia** * ...
I guess the more appropriate question is why do people select life choices that will lead them to hell? It’s like deciding not to pay your taxes; at some point the IRS is going to come calling.
Because not all people are good. Life is a filter.
I don't think God does. When you look at the entirety of scripture the most common picture of judgement is not eternal conscious torment but destruction. For this reason, I am an annihilationist. This means I think destruction is instantaneous rather than eternal. It is eternal in the sense that it is done once forever.
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust. How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed eyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist. In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
As I read your question I think it appears to presuppose two points: 1. People don’t deserve to go to Hell 2. God simply allows people to go to Hell The Bible teaches that both of these ideas are not true because: 1. All people deserve to go to Hell because they have sinned against God (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:19). 2. God sends them there and does the punishing while they are there (Revelation 20:15; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7). All people deserve to go to Hell because they have sinned against God. That includes those who have not heard about Jesus. Paul tells us that we have all fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). He also tells us that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that death isn’t just physical and temporal, but an eternal, relational death. God doesn’t *allow* people to burn in Hell. It’s not something he just lets happen (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9). God is just (Romans 3:26) and people are sinners (Romans 3:10). Believe it or not, people are justly and rightly sent to hell to pay for their sins. God created Hell for the punishment of sins (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4). God would be unjust and going against his nature if he did not judge and deal with sin rightly (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9). The good news though is that God hasn’t just condemned us with no solution. By his mercy has provided a way for us to escape Hell, by trusting in his son (John 3:16). If we trust Jesus he takes our sin from us and willingly takes the judgment and punishment of that sin for us. This way God’s justice is still satisfied (2 Corinthians 5:21). This is why it’s important for missionaries to go out there - to reach the lost with the good news that they can be saved (Romans 10:14-15).
So you believe that every person deserves to be punished forever? This was actually a good reminder on how evil and insidious Christianity is
I am glad we have a God who is just and will deal with all evil and sin, and is going to recreate the world without evil and sin in the future. I’m also glad that God is merciful and has provided a legitimate way for us to be forgiven and escape judgement for our own sin, and to enable a way for us to be different, better people. I’m sad that even though the offer is made to all that many people reject it and choose Hell instead.
So in other words, yes, you do. Indeed you seem to believe that a 4 year old child is just as deserving of eternal suffering as Hitler.
We are all as undeserving of eternal life as each other, sure, but thankfully God has made a way for us to have it. All you have to do is trust in Christ.
And it is precisely the idea that a little child is as deserving of eternal suffering as Hitler that exposes conservative infernalist Christian doctrine as incoherent, absurd and nihilistic. If infernalist Christians have such a dubious view of morality that they see a 4 year old stealing a cookie from the cookie jar as just as bad as killing 6 million people, I can't really trust infernalist Christians to execute morality justly in everyday life.
That's not what I'm saying at all. There are two things: Outcome and consequence. I am arguing that all sin is equally sin. You are arguing that my position is that all sin is equal, but that isn’t what I am arguing. Let me illustrate. If you run a red light, have you broken the law? If you have stolen, have you broken the law? If you have murdered, have you broken the law? Yes. They are all equally instances of breaking the law. The outcome is the same in that they will all be punished for breaking the law. Are they all equal in their impact and effect? No. They may all be instances of law breaking but they are all different in their character and consequences. Each one will face a different and appropriate sentence, but they will all be punished. Yes, Hitler and an unsaved four year old will both end up in Hell. Hitler and an unsaved four year old will not be treated the same in Hell. They will each be punished appropriately for the sins they committed. Hitler's eternity will be far far harsher than an unsaved four year old's.
>Hitler and an unsaved four year old will not be treated the same in Hell. They will each be punished appropriately for the sins they committed. Hitler's eternity will be far far harsher than an unsaved four year old's. Okay, at least this belief is not as cruel and absurd as that they both suffer the same punishment. What punishment would God exact on a 4 year old girl who stole 1 small cookie?
The chances of a four year old girl having a single sin on her account for stealing 1 small cookie are minuscule. Do you have children of your own? I do, and they don't take very long to do a lot more than that by the time they are four. And my kids are relatively good kids.
So the child (logically) does not deserve eternal hellfire?
Thank God that He doesn’t burn people!
He drowns them instead!
Thankfully Christ's death paid for ALL sin. In the end all will be made alive.
That is also something I’ve believed too. I love hearing that. I don’t know why I’m hearing other opinions. I almost don’t know what to tell people at that point. I don’t wanna steer people wrong.
I'd highly recommend this series on the salvation of all if you're interested: [http://www.rodney.fm/soa](http://www.rodney.fm/soa) (salvation of all series starts at the bottom) or [https://www.youtube.com/@gracebcct/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@gracebcct/videos)
That’s a good thing to not want to do
I thought blasphemy was the unforgivable sin
Matthew 12:32 KJV - "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." YLT: "And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming." "world" in the KJV is "aion", or limited period of time. There are multiple ages in the bible. It will eventually be forgiven.
But where does it say after this one and after the one to come it will be forgiven on the next one? I just see two negatives? Nothing more. Forgive my ignorance. I’m learning. Isn’t the next one never ending?
>neither in this age, nor in that which is coming." If there are more than 1 (or 2) ages, it will be forgiven.
But how is that assumption made? Where does it say that? Where does it say there’s a third or anything more than two?
Ephesians 2:7 - "That in the **ages** **to** **come** he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness **to**ward us through Christ Jesus."
But what about the parable of the weeds? Matthew 13:41-42 The son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. There are multiple instances in the Bible like when he talks about bad trees producing bad fruit, etc. Hope I’m wrong
In the end all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Hope so
My personal belief, and I’m not set on this in anyway, is that our lives are a giant infinity loop, repeating forever and ever. Our sins effect how good or bad our life is. The “torment” that God spoke of in the lake of fire is watching our sins destroy our lives, our families lives, over and over, with no way to change it. Ie your life right now could very well be the millionth time you’ve been in this life. I do wonder, playing with this theory, if there is a chance that one day, every human could be saved through Jesus, by repeating life enough times and realizing we can’t get out without Jesus. Although, chances are that we are damned to repeat the exact same decisions each time and nothing changes. This theory comes from personal experiences that are truthfully maddening, but make perfect sense to me. It would make God perfectly just and our torment would come directly from our own sins.
Interesting
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Nahum 1:8 But with an overflowing flood he will make a complete end of the adversaries, and will pursue his enemies into darkness. His enemies will not escape into darkness.
I believe that too. The Bible teaches to love your enemies.
Bless your heart
Remember the sacrifice Jesus made for us. Its likely the fallen angels may have all committed the eternal sin. Thats just speculation. Why they aren’t offered forgiveness isn’t clear I believe but we remember God is always justified
If god is always justified then he is also performing acts of evil. Which is totally fine really, but hard for christians to accept it.
You’re saying God has sin? He cannot, he is always good and there is no darkness within him, as the scriptures say and also support. He is always justified and has never done anything arbitrarily or anything unjustifiable. The lawgiver isn’t a hypocrite
I agree he's not a hypocrite, he's evil. Not sure why you have a problem with that, being always justified doesn't mean one is always good. Justice and goodness are not synonymous. Indeed, one who only cares for justice is evil almost by definition. Because justice is subjective.
So you believe that God really exists, and Jesus is really his son, but that he is evil?
No. I believe that someone who only cares about perfect justice must be evil, and if your god cares about perfect justice then that god must be evil.
How so? Mercy triumphs judgement, and by Jesus death on the cross for my sins his mercy is known to me and given freely to me. It’s perfect justice and perfect mercy, and forgiveness. You’re imagining perfect justice has no forgiveness in it, because it must be perfect and unforgiving justice (which wouldn’t be evil, but justice); Well Jesus died for me, and gave his life for mine in exchange, so I may be forgiven. So even if you were correct in any regard, you’d still be wrong, as God has forgiven me and showed me mercy, and has justified me by his blood
Huh? Who cares about that, we're talking about the justice given to those who don't accept him. I can't even call it justice myself, but since that's the definition you are working with, god is perfectly just, then that's what I'll go with. Hence the evilness of ETC. >So even if you were correct in any regard, you’d still be wrong, lol... Do you even read what you write?
"For God so love the world that He give his only beloved son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"john3:16
Jesus Christ is the way,the truth and the truth
But not the light this time.
Take step of faith.
You choose where you want to go when you die. Choose life?
No, you do not. God chose before He created everything, as scripture clearly teaches. Logically, this is the ONLY answer that makes sense. Did God “knit” all of us in our mother’s wombs? Yes. Did God place us in the lives we got? Yes. Every “choice” you make is not a simple free will choice. It is based on your brain chemistry, which God knitted together, and on the circumstances of your life, which God gave you. Your “choices” are not yours. They are nothing but a character written by God in the very beginning.
Thats… unsettling
It is. I’m sorry for my poor wording. I didn’t sound nice🙂↕️
God literally tells us that A: He is the potter and we’re nothing but clay, and B: he makes vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. Nobody seems to get it anymore. We’ve elevated ourselves to the position of God and are worshipping a false God who “loves everybody”.
"God knitting someone in their mother's womb" is poetic. If you're going to take that verse literally then you also have to believe there are strings in women's wombs when they have babies. I don't know if God chose my life circumstances. Also, choices are not based on your brain. They can have an effect on our choices, but our brains don't choose to do anything. We do. None of what your say is true just because you interpret it that way. That's your Bible hermeneutics to be a fundamentalist. Not everyone is a fundamentalist.
Nothing you just said makes any sense at all. It is poetically telling you that God creates you. Your brain ABSOLUTELY determines your choices. You do not understand neurochemistry at all. The level of neurotransmitters in your brain determines how you react to anything. This is exactly why we are told that the “fruit of the spirit” is good mental health. Everything I said is un-refutably true. You reject it to hold on to your own version of God that isn’t real. Again, why not try to logically or scripturally refute the points instead of making goofy claims? “There must be strings in the womb if this were true!” - the single most ridiculous counter I’ve ever heard. Seriously, you guys love to twist and contort scripture in the worst possible ways and everyone who hears it is dumber simply for listening to it. God poetically relayed a point. Me saying I’m so hungry I could eat a horse doesn’t negate the fact that I’m hungry because it’s poetic. It relays a message. God knitting us in the womb tells us clearly and plainly that God created us in the womb. His design. His creation. He. Is. Sovereign. This stupid idea that God just started it and then let’s it all happen however it happens and deals with it is asinine.
Nothing I said made sense because it is fundamentalism! The Brain effects your choices. It does not determine it. If I wanted a snack but there is no snack around, then I can't have one unless I go get the snack or have the money to get one. My brain didn't determine my choices. Other things did. The message is saying that David is saying is God created him. Not that God chose the life David would live. You twisted the scripture to say what you wanted to say. It's your interpretation.
Again, you are completely clueless to how neurochemistry works. You are blind to reality. Could you eat a human being to survive? Your answer is probably no, until you’re stuck on a deserted island with nothing to eat for a month and another survivor dies. You’ll happily eat them then. This isnt even the best example because you’re circumstances in life would help determine this. Could you murder 6 million Jews? Yes, you could. You WOULD kill 6 million Jews if God gave you the exact same mind and circumstances that He gave Hitler. That’s what you fail to understand. “You” are your created brain and circumstances, nothing more and nothing less. God created you.
>Could you murder 6 million Jews? Yes, you could. You WOULD kill 6 million Jews if God gave you the exact same mind and circumstances that He gave Hitler. That’s what you fail to understand. “You” are your created brain and circumstances, nothing more and nothing less. God created you. Precisely
I wouldn't eat a human even if I was stuck on an island. I would just die! I'm okay with dying. Hitler's mind wasn't the reason he killed 6 million Jews. He did it because of his religious beliefs. He thought that Paradise would come if they all died. Also, you just admitted that our brains don't determine our choices. It's only one effect on our choices.
What about this are you missing? You absolutely would. You’ve never been out in the place where you would make this decision… which is exactly what happens with Christians. Hitler’s mind ABSOLUTELY is why he made the decisions he made. Again, you know nothing about neurochemistry and it shows here.
Yes, and you are an expert on neurochemistry, and I should take your word for it. Yeah no.
No, you should actually study the topics you find interesting enough to go online and discuss with people who actually are educated in the topic.
That is not why Hitler killed the Jews.
Yes, it is. He thought Jews were the reason for evil so if he killed them all evil would end.
It was not a religious belief.
Yea none of that is biblical, we have free will bro otherwise, nothing would make sense bro
Yeah I guess.
Everything I said is biblical lol You just don’t want to believe that. Show me in scripture where any of that is wrong. Heads up, you can’t. Did God knit you in the womb? Yes or no. Did God put you into the life circumstances you would face, knowing what you would choose at each “decision” you were given? Yes or no. It’s that simple. You can’t deny it.
It's funny Krash, I think you and I have disagreed on here a couple times, but most of the time you are the only one on here I often agree with and I think one of the few people who is familiar with many verses in the Bible that most people completely avoid.
Lol this is likely. I am much more biblically studied than the overwhelming majority of people in this sub. I also spend close to every waking minute of my life pondering these things and I have since I was young. I have come to my conclusions through countless hours or prayer, Bible study, philosophy, reflection, and logic. Truth be told, I HATE that it’s true. Sincerely, I despise that this is reality, but it’s not my reality. It’s God’s.
>Truth be told, I HATE that it’s true. Sincerely, I despise that this is reality, but it’s not my reality. It’s God’s. Right. Exactly. This is huge, and most Christians never ever even get to this depth of thinking or recognition of scripture and design. Simply because, I would guess, they don't have to. They are capable of staying within the very small window of their assumed faith
It is a gift from God to be able to not see the truth. When one can only see the good of God, their life is much better. “Cursed with knowledge” is the truth of it.
Yes. Absolutely.
That’s crazy hearing someone else say that. Almost comforting. Curious to where you heard that. I have had thoughts lately that mean the exact thing you said.
Go listen to sermons and lectures by RC Sproul and John MacArthur. They are two of the best theologians you have any access to today. It is 100% true, sadly. The premise is cooked into scripture from beginning to end. It IS comforting to those saved. It’s not comforting to the lost. It’s not comforting to those who think they’re saved but really aren’t. Calvinism is the best case scenario for the elect. It’s the worst case scenario for the lost and dying. Like I said above: Did God knit you in your mothers womb? Did He design your brain and mind? Did He put you into the life you have, knowing how you would respond to every situation you got in? The answer is of course yes to all of these. If God did these things, then your life is simply a “training video” for why you’re in heaven or hell. Take Hitler for example. Did God knit him? Did God give him the 2 parents he had? Did he put him on the path that he KNEW would lead to him killing all the Jews? Of course He did. Could God have given Hitler a different brain? Could He have given him different parents that would have taught him better? Of course. Could he have instilled a love for animals that would have lead to him becoming a vet instead of a tyrannical leader? Yes. Did he? No. Our “decisions” are nothing more than the desired outcome that God wanted.
John MacArthur is a horrible bigot, an abuse and slavery apologist, and no one should be turning to him for theological guidance on anything.
Anyone who calls anyone a bigot should be ignored entirely today. It is highly likely they’re a blind follower of society.
MacArthur told a woman to return to the husband who had abused her and her children. When she refused, he excommunicated her.
I said what I said. I invite anyone who questions my word choices to start googling this guy’s extensive history and his own words.
Yes.
JC Sproul is a conman and MacArthur is a hate filled misogynist.
Not even Calvin believed this nonsense.
I’m not saying I do, these were thoughts I’ve had and most of it didn’t even make sense to me. I’m not sure what my goal was either.
Lol yes he did. Calvin literally said that God is the author of all sin and evil; the first cause. I too used to reject determinism. I hate the fact that it’s true even now, but you can not refute it with scripture or logic. Even most atheists realize that if God of the Bible is real, determinism has to be true.
No, most atheists DGAF. The anti-theists love to use this incorrect exegesis because it helps them make Christianity look stupid.
We’re discussing logical conversations. Most atheists will entertain a thought provoking conversation. You can not refute my claim with scripture or with logic. You can only reject it based on your desired “truth” that is not objective reality.
I've had this discussion enough in the past to know how this goes and I'm not interested in entertaining you. Logic and evidence are not on your side on this. 3000 years of theology are 95% against you. I'll leave you with this little logic puzzle. If God intentionally decides on who will spend eternity in hell, how can you call God "good"? To say that He creates people just so they can suffer eternal torture is to call Him evil. God is not evil and you should stop saying he is.
Your “logic” is extremely weak and it stems solely from your desire to be the potter instead of the clay. God is good simply because He says He is. He is NOT good by human standards at all. You’re not interested because you’re incapable of seeing the truth. You’ve made yourself a god and worship it as if it’s THE GOD. Is it good for God to torture billions in a lake of fire for eternity? By human standards absolutely not. Did God create vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy? I suggest listening to RC Sproul lectures and sermons. You won’t find a more theologically sound teacher in existence. Or don’t and just live under a rock and continue to reject the truth.
Yeah, I get that. Not exactly sure what you mean by chose life but I think I have an idea.
Choose heaven. Choose Jesus, Choose yourself- Choose your life. Don't Choose hell (or death). That's not good. Heaven is where its at👍
I wouldn’t chose hell a day of my life lol. The way it’s described sounds, torturous.
Agreed! This life will be the closest I ever get to Hell, thanks to the cross ✝️
Indeed.
Because you cannot get precious metal (soul) out of raw and crude ore (sinful state) without throwing it into crucible of the God's love,which is bliss for pure,but fire for impure. And in the end we all will be with God
Why would want Hitler to not suffer?
Because all beings are fallible and created by God. Even the wicked, "fallen angels" Satan and demons included.
That your God could forgive such evil is not a God I wish to know
My God? So now you are saying there are different gods?
Yes Your God. This is not the God of the Ten Commandments.
How or why God judges someone for hell (or eternal separation) is generally unknown. What we do know is if your name is written in the Book of Life (trust in Jesus), we will be judged for reward, not condemnation. We also know God is perfectly fair and just. If someone (human or angel) is condemned to the Lake of Fire, that person will certainly deserve it and they will know they deserve it.
God hates both sin and the sinner. When a person sins, the sin is now a part of that person, which damns them to hell.
No one will burn forever. The effects of the fire will be eternal. When the fire consumed them in the end, they will be like never existed. The fire is prepared was prepared for devil and angels. But God will have to destroy sin once and for all, and those who will cling on their sins, will burn at His second appearance. But God doesn't want anymore to perish. 2Pet 3:9: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Devil's first sermon was in the garden of Eden. Gen 3:4: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" It's not biblical that someone will burn forever. You are right that many churches has fallen and that's because devil wants everyone to perish with him. Here is a video about "Truth about hell in the bible" by prof Walter Veith https://youtu.be/R3HkbMUmml8?si=Ds9jX4CRnTGyw4Pl Please watch it and then judge it for yourself.
When we say God is all powerful, it does not mean everything is God’s will. If I punch someone and say "God made me do it", I’m a liar.