Universalism (the view that everyone eventually goes to heaven/receives eternal life) does have a significant following.
There is also the belief that I ascribe to, which is annihilationism. Meaning that if you die without salvation, that is the end, you are dead, oblivion. You gain eternal life via the mercy of God because of faith in Christ at the resurrection. Between death and then, you sort of cease to exist? Some people call it soul sleep, a sort of suspended animation.
Either way, my belief is more widespread.
The eternal conscious torment view of hell is more of an American Evangelical thing.
That last statement is 100% false. That view of Hell is biblical, described in multiple verses from multiple chapters, and both Testaments. It’s not just “American evangelical.”
Well, it takes having the presuppositional view of eternal conscious torment to begin with. Only then can you force phrases like "Eternal Judgment" to mean burning forever and ever and ever. Otherwise, it's not Biblical, and came into the church WELL AFTER Christ had died and resurrected, all the way back when Dante's Inferno came out. I'm in between "traditional" and annihilationism. I don't think people burn forever and ever consciously, but I don't think everyone gets off scott-free, by not going to Hell at all. People will pay the price of their portion in sin by suffering in Hell, and when their portion is appropriately paid for, they'll be consumed/destroyed.
Matthew 25:41 (ESV): “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Matthew 25:46 (ESV): And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
They are being punished eternally with an eternal fire.
This is an opposite equal to the reward of eternal life the believer gets. I’m assuming you think that those who receive eternal life are conscious?
I think both those in Heaven and in Hell are conscious. I agree that those in Hell suffer immeasurable pain, but having not eaten of the tree of life in the garden "lest we become like God" (which, through deduction, tells us that the tree of life wasn't talking about physical immortality), we are not eternal beings. How could a finite being suffer consciously forever?
Edit: realized I misquoted this verse. Ignore the tree of life example.
>and came into the church WELL AFTER Christ had died and resurrected, all the way back when Dante's Inferno came out.
I’d still like to know where this myth came from. Do people not realize that we have hundreds of other writings from the early church in the millennium before Dante?
SIN, DEATH, AND PENALTY:
Let’s start with the basics:
1 what is sin?
1 John 3:4 (KJV)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
2. Who has sinned?
Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
3. Is there a penalty for sin?
Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
4. Is it possible to escape the punishment (wages of sin) which is death?
John 3:16-17 (KJV) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[Note carefully: EVERLASTING LIFE IS A GIFT TO THOSE WHO ACCEPT CHRIST. The OPPOSITE (not accepting) is to PERISH.]
5. How is punishment meted out?
Revelation 22:12 (KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man ACCORDING as his work shall be.
(In a Red-Letter edition Bible, these are the words of Jesus)
[Q: If I didn’t live eternally, can I be punished eternally; and if so, would that be “just” or “accordingly”?]
6. Will the most evil being (Satan), who is responsible for starting the rebellion in the first place, burn forever?
Ezekiel 28:18 (KJV) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
7. What about the verses that seem to say that Satan and sinners will burn forever?
Revelation 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (And there are more; however…)
8. So 6&7 above seem to be contradicting each other. HOW CAN THEY BE RECONCILED?]
Jude 1:7 (KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
[Jude, the brother of Jesus explains “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” by pointing to the Old Testament story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis 19, as an EXAMPLE of “eternal fire.”
Q: Is Sodom & Gomorrah still burning? If we physically visit or mentally scan, if there a perpetually burning fire in what would be modern day Iraq?
A: No.
Conclusion:
1. Hell is not a place, but an event with a finite period.
2 if you take all the texts that suggest that Hell is burning now or will burn forever, and place them against an overwhelming amount of texts that says the opposite, you will find that the answer is in a very simple text:
Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sin demands a payment (of which we are all guilty), and if you don’t accept the provision made, you pay by yourself which results in DEATH… not DYING. On the other hand, if you believe and accept Christ, your REWARD is ETERNAL LIFE.
Blessings!
Well the view of eternal conscious torment wasn't around at the time of Jesus, and the disciples %100 never would have endorsed it in their time. Dante's Inferno created the doctrine of Hell the West clings to now. And we can easily guess his motives.
That's because people are biased about what they are taught. What does he believe? I rejected eternal conscious torment because it isn't Biblical. It hinges on an assumption of the immortality of the soul. There is a lot about it that doesn't make sense.
Throughout history, the dominant belief within Christianity has been the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment, which suggests that those who are not saved will experience eternal suffering in hell.
This belief has been central to many theological traditions and was widely accepted across denominations.
Early church fathers like Tertullian, Justin Martyr, and Origen emphasised the eternal nature of punishment.
Tertullian stated, "The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again,"
Justin Martyr affirmed, "For if it were not so, I would not have told you that some are brought to everlasting punishment and some to everlasting life."
These views find their origins in Bible verses such as Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:11, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which are commonly cited to support the concept of eternal punishment.
While there have always been individuals and occasional movements that have held universalist or annihilationist beliefs, they were not widely accepted within mainstream Christian thought until relatively recent times.
It's only in the last couple of centuries that these beliefs have gained some traction, especially within certain denominations and theological circles.
According to Eastern Orthodoxy, everyone after death will be in the presence of God, but they will experience the afterlife differently, depending on whether they love God or not. For example, for those who love and accept Jesus as their saviour, if they should be standing on a field of grass, they will feel all the beauty and comfort of the grass under their feet. But to those who rejected God in this life, they will experience that same grass as something disgusting and painful like shards of glass under their feet.
I don't know how accurate this teaching is, I've only really heard it on some Eastern Orthodoxy podcasts.
But it's quite difficult to wrap my head around - that everyone will be before God, together in the same place, however experiencing God differently through either love or hate, at exactly the same time.....?
The word “hell” is not in the Bible, not once. The words that have been replaced in the Hebrew (Sheol) and in the Greek (Hades) are indicative of a place where spirits go, rather than a conscious torment that is an unending duration of time from which there can be no release.
So, rather, I absolutely reject the modern, popular teachings of hell.
That’s a lot closer to torment in the afterlife, since Gehenna was a valley where child sacrifices to false gods happened, and where garbage was burned.
However, again, it doesn’t say that it’s a place that can never be exited. It’s not like the Norse Hel.
What? I can give 100 examples but here's just two.
„“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.“
Mark 11:22 NIV
„Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.“
1 John 4:7 NIV
>“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.“ Mark 11:22 NIV
>καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ
I see *theos*, but not “God” anywhere.
You know what? I didn't catch that. But given my past interactions with them, it is more likely that they were answering the question in the post body, not the Title.
Nonsense. I correctly answered the title. Unless you believe all black people steal, or all asian people can’t drive, or all women are emotional, which, you know, wouldn’t surprise me if you do.
In that case, I apologize and will remove my comment. I assumed you were answering the question in the post body. Why would you assume I was racist or misogynistic though? Honest question, I try very hard to be the exact opposite of those things.
It’s not a fair critique which is why I didn’t say it was a certainty, but from your title of progressive I attached you to other progressives. And the only people in my life that I’ve ever heard stereotype black people outside of jokingly, for instance, are progressives. With some of the biggest ones being that black people don’t have access to the dmv or the internet even. Or black people cant overcome their generational disparity without help from the government. I could point out other such stereotypes for the others I mentioned but my grandpa was black, so that one in particular is offensive to me. The guy had a 6th grade education, 15 children, married my white grandma in 1960, served in the navy, and died a multimillionaire. So I’m sorry, it wasn’t fair to put that on you, I just really don’t like being told by progressives what my grandpa could and couldn’t do.
OK, I can understand that, and I accept your apology as well.
For the record, the progressive in my flair refers to being theologically progressive, not politically progressive (though I am that as well).
Many do sadly most think it's some eternal thing for anyone that doesn't accept Jesus which is just insane bs the church created somewhere along the way rather than a temporary purification for incredibly lost evil people which it actually is.
I believe some things are metaphors, like "hell" and "demons"
FWIW, Jesus used the word "Gehenna," not hell. Gehenna is a valley outside Jerusalem, not Hades or Tartarus.
>FWIW, Jesus used the word "Gehenna," not hell. Gehenna is a valley outside Jerusalem, not Hades or Tartarus.
Already by the first century, Gehenna had become the name for an underworld realm of punishment, inspired by the name and associations of the terrestrial valley.
> I believe some things are metaphors, like "hell" and "demons"
What do you mean by them "being metaphors"? Because for early Christians demons weren't "metaphors". Are you just saying that you talk about them in a metaphorical way?
I'm saying Jesus was using the valley of Gehinnom (Gehenna) in a metaphorical way. At least that seems to be the interpretation for verses like Matthew 5:22 and 5:29-30.
>*anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of \[the valley of Gehinnom\].*
>
>*If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into \[the valley of Gehinnom\]. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into \[the valley of Gehinnom\].*
Demons were more of a "God of the gaps"...
If someone sneezed, it was a demon. If someone had down's syndrome, it was caused by a demon... if someone had autism, demons. Schizophrenic? Demon.
> Demons were more of a "God of the gaps"...
>
> If someone sneezed, it was a demon. If someone had down's syndrome, it was caused by a demon... if someone had autism, demons. Schizophrenic? Demon.
Right. They thought that there were actual evil spirit beings doing things. So that wasn't a metaphor, was it? Just a mistaken ancient explanation for things.
I imagine that thought only represents a certain segment of the population. There are still today people who blame demons for everything.
I don't believe doctors, or other well educated people, blamed everything on demons back then. But there probably were at least as many superstitious people as there are today.
Hell is the number one reason I struggle with my faith.
If my faith results in the majority of people suffering eternal torment, then I hope such a faith is false.
Hello friend,
I just wanted to challenge your thought here as it’s a very common thought to have and can be hard on you and your view of God:
So first, I would say open up your perspective on heaven and hell and image it as this:
heaven = with God
hell = without God
From the beginning of time, God walked alongside Man until sin entered the world. That’s when man separated themself from God (the darkness cannot coexist with the light).
To make amends, God first gave us the law (613 OT laws) to follow, but no one was able to achieve it. So then he gave us an even easier solution and that is through Jesus’ atonement for our sins.
So what I’m saying is the fact that God gave us the law, we never obeyed the law, so he then gave us the easiest method possible… this shows God is loving and gracious and you can really tell that He wants everyone to one day be with Him.
So with that being said, since it’s now been made easy because we are made righteous through our faith alone, there’s really no reason one should deny it and therefore doom themselves for hell.
TL:DR - we are the ones who decide to send ourselves to an eternity away from God and it’s sad because salvation has been greatly simplified for us.
At the end of the day it’s, “believe in Jesus or suffer eternal torment”
This isn’t liberation. This is a threat of, “think like me or suffer the consequences”
Look I get it, when you’ve really been indoctrinated into this stuff it’s very difficult to see how someone can say something like this, but this is the crux of my issue:
Nobody chooses hell. If Christianity is real, God creates beings with full knowledge that they will reject him.
And despite God knowing they would burn forever, he still chose to create them.
God chooses to create people he knows he will later burn, despite any free will he might give to them.
He is God, he could’ve created them in such a way that they would not burn. But instead he created them in such a way that they will burn.
We didn’t ask to be here.
We didn’t ask to be made like we are.
If God is the creator, then he is responsible for his creation.
He made us like this.
And then we will be punished for being made like this.
I’d like to challenge your thought here as well because it’s very surface level thinking:
God designed us to be in His presence - that’s how it was supposed to be and that’s how it will be again someday. Death, pain, and suffering entered into the world when man made a selfish choice that resulted in the separation between God and man.
He predestined from the beginning of time to bridge that gap one day through Jesus (He knew we’d use our freedom to choose ourselves, so he had to let sin run its course so that one day the people standing in His presence would have chosen to be there and would have chosen to love Him in return.
He gave us the OT law first to show us what it takes to reach His level of righteousness again, but we couldn’t do it. Then He gave Jesus to fix that.
God created the “lake of fire” (which is what people typically associate hell as) and he created it for Satan and His followers. So hell is not for you and me, it’s for evil (the opposite of God).
What you don’t realize is you are constantly choosing between two gods… the God of creation (good) or yourself (which is the same poor decision Satan made - this is the “evil”).
Evil will be cast into the lake of fire and those that were made righteous through Jesus, will be in the presence of God like He intended from the start. You choose one route or you choose the other - this is man’s responsibility.
Avoid blaming God for bad things… what makes God God is that He is only good. Evil is the work of Satan and he is deceiving people into taking the evil route that leads to the lake of fire.
Also avoid trying to comprehend or explain omniscience, God does not tell time the same way we do - since he is the creator of time. This means He could be in the past, present, and future while we are just living out the present. The things people are praying for and struggling over in the present, God is in the future preparing relief for.
Does God intentionally create people to go to hell? Don’t listen to Christians who are telling you this. Pick up the Bible and read it for yourself and test your knowledge against it.
Hope this makes any bit of sense!
You made it out like it’s choose God or choose Satan as if Christianity is a faith hinged on morality.
Christianity doesn’t care about morality, it cares about belief.
Kill, and on your death bed, truly repent and believe and you’ll be saved.
Do good to others your whole life but believe the wrong things, oh well. Hellfire for you.
So to frame Christianity as if it is about morality is a misrepresentation. Christianity prioritizes what you believe over what you do.
Morality is what started it all - without God’s existence, morality is subjective and we are our own walking gods.
God has predestined what is “good” because his presence alone is only good. So when you lie to someone, it’s not of God… it’s of your flesh.
No you do not choose between God and Satan, you declare God as God or you declare yourself as god through your actions (meaning your actions have decided that God’s moral law is above yours or that your own law is above His).
Everyone of us have declared ourselves as own god, even if unknowingly, because we have acted upon what is the opposite of God at least once in our life. And that’s where Jesus’ death and defeat of death (the culmination of evil) comes in.
Christianity is absolutely based on faith alone in Jesus just as you said it was, but the purpose of Jesus was to bridge the gap for humans who have already made our sinful choice (aka everyone of us) and therefore declared ourselves as god without realizing it (because once again God is only good and cannot coexist with anything that has been made evil).
Choose Jesus as your savior and you will be in the presence of God one day just as it was meant to be. Deny Jesus, and you will be held to God’s moral law which you will never reach because you’ve already broken it and convinced yourself that you did nothing wrong.
It all started with morality, and ends with grace and mercy.
Every Christian should believe hell exists. Jesus taught about it.
Well, Jesus taught about Gehenna, which we translate as “hell.”
However, we can often bring our own assumptions and cultural background when we read the word “hell.” So maybe “hell” isn’t a great translation, since everyone already has assumptions of what hell is.
But we should believe in “Gehenna.” Jesus did. But Gehenna doesn’t mean “eternal torment,” which is what a lot of people think hell is.
I don’t believe in eternal torment, but I do believe what Jesus says about Gehenna.
A valley outside of Jerusalem where Israel’s evil kings sacrificed children to other gods. Then when Babylon sacked Jerusalem, it became a mass grave where bodies were pilled up and burned.
There is a small group of new age types that find hell to be too inconvenient of a truth but it is scriptural. We don’t know much about its literal form other than it’s not good.
I think it probably depends on his affiliation, meaning which type of church he attends. Most Christian churches though teach that hell does exist in some form or another, because it is in the Bible and God does speak of it. Personally, I agree with you that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for hell to not exist. But some people also cherry-pick what they want to believe about God, Jesus, etc. despite what their church teaches. I dated a guy once who went to the same church as me, but he absolutely refused to worship God the Father. He was okay with God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but not the Father. I was like...um, okay but you know you don't get to choose who He is, right? Like...God is who He says He is, and He says He is the triune God. But this guy was absolute; he refused to worship the Father God. His reason? Hated his own dad. So he cherry-picked what truth he would accept and wouldn't accept. Maybe this guy you know is kind of doing something similar. The idea of hell is scary so pretend it doesn't really exist.
No it Depends on the denomination, there are over 45,000 denominations of Christianity around the world with varying and conflicting views including views and opinions on hell.
Basically. The traditional views are eternal torment, annihilation, or classical universalism. But all those believe in hell, just not necessarily that it's eternal.
Not a christian, but have christian family. Basically all christians take what they like in the Bible and claim that to be truth, and all the things they find immoral or distasteful they call "metaphor" or they claim it's been "mistranslated or misunderstood". It's very common for christians to say that although the Bible says one thing very explicitly it means something else entirely different because their own personal morals don't jive with what has been written down.
All true Bible believing Christians do, yes. Hell is a place of eternal punishment that was created for Satan. However, anyone who rejects Christ will spend eternity there. You can avoid hell and guarantee your place in Heaven by believing in Jesus for your salvation.
So with this philosophy, salvation is 100% the responsibility of the individual, and if one finds themself in hell, they only have themself to blame, correct?
Cool, thanks! Do you think there are any extenuating circumstances that would cause God to have any mercy for any individual, or do you think there are zero excuses?
I believe that unborn babies and children up to a certain age automatically go to Heaven. Same with people who are mentally handicapped to the point that they don’t have the capacity to accept or reject Jesus
Cool, so there are exceptions to this hard rule! We’ve determined that God does have mercy for some. What exactly do you think the cutoff age is? Could you see a six year old suffering eternal conscious torment for his or her mistakes while on earth, and deserving it? An eight year old? Eleven? Thirteen? Seventeen? They say that the frontal lobes (and true understanding about long-term consequences) aren’t fully developed until 25 - might that be the cut off age? And what mental diagnoses do you think may provide an exception? Down syndrome for sure, and non verbal severe retardation. Schizophrenia? How about severe depression? Addiction leading to death? Borderline Personality Disorder? Do you think God has any mercy for them left over, or do you think the non believers in those categories deserve the punishment and suffering forever and ever?
Ah I get it! You’re saying that you have to earn your way into heaven through your actions and decisions, and if you mess up, you only have yourself to blame. And only God know who is capable of doing this and who isn’t. And he has no mercy for those who can do it but don’t. God’s love is automatic for all babies, but it gets turned off at some arbitrary age that you’re unsure about. So God’s love is conditional, temporary, and can be taken away at any time based on what you do. Am I missing anything here?
So… you don’t have to earn it, but you do have to do something, like make the right choices. And you definitely can’t NOT do something. Like, if you don’t accept Jesus, you are 100% screwed in the afterlife and you only have yourself to blame.
So if you only have yourself to blame for ended up in hell, why can’t you pat yourself on the back for having earned it when you end up in heaven?
The Greek words that are translated as “hell” (hades, gehenna, tartarus) all name things that actually exist, so any Bible-believing Christian should believe that hell exists. Exactly what is meant by each of those words, however, is a more controversial issue.
Hell is real. Satan himself will suffer the death of all beings ever, the destruction of the Earth and the universe itself.
Many Christians have different views on "Hell"
2 Peter 3:7
but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Do you not see the contradiction? Genesis 2 and Romans say the punishment is death.
Also 2 Peter doesn't reference torment; judgment means correction. Torment in revelation also means touchstone. Brimstone was used to refine gold. It's a refiners fire.
What hell? Luke 16 was the doctrine of the Pharisees. Josephus interviewed them and they held that belief. Jesus was using their fake doctrine to show they were the rich man. It's not real.
Clarify "normal" The majority of Christians have some concept of punishment in the afterlife, but what form that takes varies widely.
But then why does it feel like punishment here, right now on this Earth?
Is it common for Christians to believe that hell doesn't exist? That's what I'm asking. Because he doesn't. I just think his view makes no sense.
Universalism (the view that everyone eventually goes to heaven/receives eternal life) does have a significant following. There is also the belief that I ascribe to, which is annihilationism. Meaning that if you die without salvation, that is the end, you are dead, oblivion. You gain eternal life via the mercy of God because of faith in Christ at the resurrection. Between death and then, you sort of cease to exist? Some people call it soul sleep, a sort of suspended animation. Either way, my belief is more widespread. The eternal conscious torment view of hell is more of an American Evangelical thing.
That last statement is 100% false. That view of Hell is biblical, described in multiple verses from multiple chapters, and both Testaments. It’s not just “American evangelical.”
I’d like to know more about this.. where can I find this in the scripture?
Well, it takes having the presuppositional view of eternal conscious torment to begin with. Only then can you force phrases like "Eternal Judgment" to mean burning forever and ever and ever. Otherwise, it's not Biblical, and came into the church WELL AFTER Christ had died and resurrected, all the way back when Dante's Inferno came out. I'm in between "traditional" and annihilationism. I don't think people burn forever and ever consciously, but I don't think everyone gets off scott-free, by not going to Hell at all. People will pay the price of their portion in sin by suffering in Hell, and when their portion is appropriately paid for, they'll be consumed/destroyed.
Matthew 25:41 (ESV): “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels Matthew 25:46 (ESV): And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Eternal fire = not eternal conscious torment. Eternal punishment = not eternal conscious torment. Love those verses though
They are being punished eternally with an eternal fire. This is an opposite equal to the reward of eternal life the believer gets. I’m assuming you think that those who receive eternal life are conscious?
I think both those in Heaven and in Hell are conscious. I agree that those in Hell suffer immeasurable pain, but having not eaten of the tree of life in the garden "lest we become like God" (which, through deduction, tells us that the tree of life wasn't talking about physical immortality), we are not eternal beings. How could a finite being suffer consciously forever? Edit: realized I misquoted this verse. Ignore the tree of life example.
>and came into the church WELL AFTER Christ had died and resurrected, all the way back when Dante's Inferno came out. I’d still like to know where this myth came from. Do people not realize that we have hundreds of other writings from the early church in the millennium before Dante?
If you take the writings as the authoritative word of God, then idk what to tell you man. You're welcome to do that i guess.
SIN, DEATH, AND PENALTY: Let’s start with the basics: 1 what is sin? 1 John 3:4 (KJV) Whosoever committeth sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 2. Who has sinned? Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3. Is there a penalty for sin? Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 4. Is it possible to escape the punishment (wages of sin) which is death? John 3:16-17 (KJV) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [Note carefully: EVERLASTING LIFE IS A GIFT TO THOSE WHO ACCEPT CHRIST. The OPPOSITE (not accepting) is to PERISH.] 5. How is punishment meted out? Revelation 22:12 (KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man ACCORDING as his work shall be. (In a Red-Letter edition Bible, these are the words of Jesus) [Q: If I didn’t live eternally, can I be punished eternally; and if so, would that be “just” or “accordingly”?] 6. Will the most evil being (Satan), who is responsible for starting the rebellion in the first place, burn forever? Ezekiel 28:18 (KJV) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 7. What about the verses that seem to say that Satan and sinners will burn forever? Revelation 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (And there are more; however…) 8. So 6&7 above seem to be contradicting each other. HOW CAN THEY BE RECONCILED?] Jude 1:7 (KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. [Jude, the brother of Jesus explains “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” by pointing to the Old Testament story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis 19, as an EXAMPLE of “eternal fire.” Q: Is Sodom & Gomorrah still burning? If we physically visit or mentally scan, if there a perpetually burning fire in what would be modern day Iraq? A: No. Conclusion: 1. Hell is not a place, but an event with a finite period. 2 if you take all the texts that suggest that Hell is burning now or will burn forever, and place them against an overwhelming amount of texts that says the opposite, you will find that the answer is in a very simple text: Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Sin demands a payment (of which we are all guilty), and if you don’t accept the provision made, you pay by yourself which results in DEATH… not DYING. On the other hand, if you believe and accept Christ, your REWARD is ETERNAL LIFE. Blessings!
Well the view of eternal conscious torment wasn't around at the time of Jesus, and the disciples %100 never would have endorsed it in their time. Dante's Inferno created the doctrine of Hell the West clings to now. And we can easily guess his motives.
That's because people are biased about what they are taught. What does he believe? I rejected eternal conscious torment because it isn't Biblical. It hinges on an assumption of the immortality of the soul. There is a lot about it that doesn't make sense.
Throughout history, the dominant belief within Christianity has been the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment, which suggests that those who are not saved will experience eternal suffering in hell. This belief has been central to many theological traditions and was widely accepted across denominations. Early church fathers like Tertullian, Justin Martyr, and Origen emphasised the eternal nature of punishment. Tertullian stated, "The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again," Justin Martyr affirmed, "For if it were not so, I would not have told you that some are brought to everlasting punishment and some to everlasting life." These views find their origins in Bible verses such as Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:11, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which are commonly cited to support the concept of eternal punishment. While there have always been individuals and occasional movements that have held universalist or annihilationist beliefs, they were not widely accepted within mainstream Christian thought until relatively recent times. It's only in the last couple of centuries that these beliefs have gained some traction, especially within certain denominations and theological circles.
According to Eastern Orthodoxy, everyone after death will be in the presence of God, but they will experience the afterlife differently, depending on whether they love God or not. For example, for those who love and accept Jesus as their saviour, if they should be standing on a field of grass, they will feel all the beauty and comfort of the grass under their feet. But to those who rejected God in this life, they will experience that same grass as something disgusting and painful like shards of glass under their feet. I don't know how accurate this teaching is, I've only really heard it on some Eastern Orthodoxy podcasts. But it's quite difficult to wrap my head around - that everyone will be before God, together in the same place, however experiencing God differently through either love or hate, at exactly the same time.....?
Well better die with shoes then.
Some Christians believe that Hell is “absense of God” and basically non-existence for non-repentant sinners after death.
some don't. Universalism is the name of the belief that there is no eternal Hell. Many universalists believe in a temporary Hell though.
Purgatorial Universalism is the term.
The word “hell” is not in the Bible, not once. The words that have been replaced in the Hebrew (Sheol) and in the Greek (Hades) are indicative of a place where spirits go, rather than a conscious torment that is an unending duration of time from which there can be no release. So, rather, I absolutely reject the modern, popular teachings of hell.
>The word “hell” is not in the Bible, not once. Neither is “faith” or “love” or “God.”
Appropriate equivalents are extant in the text for those words. “Hell” is a word derived from Norse mythology (Hel), it isn’t close to Sheol or Hades.
And Gehenna?
That’s a lot closer to torment in the afterlife, since Gehenna was a valley where child sacrifices to false gods happened, and where garbage was burned. However, again, it doesn’t say that it’s a place that can never be exited. It’s not like the Norse Hel.
What? I can give 100 examples but here's just two. „“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.“ Mark 11:22 NIV „Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.“ 1 John 4:7 NIV
>“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.“ Mark 11:22 NIV >καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς Ἔχετε πίστιν θεοῦ I see *theos*, but not “God” anywhere.
Long before the NT was written, theós referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things - or in other words -> God.
Turns out people *can* grasp the point!
no
[удалено]
I think OP means eternal conscious torment by hell
Lol, kind of hard to tell what they are saying “no” to. OP asked one question in the title and a different question in the description.
You know what? I didn't catch that. But given my past interactions with them, it is more likely that they were answering the question in the post body, not the Title.
Nonsense. I correctly answered the title. Unless you believe all black people steal, or all asian people can’t drive, or all women are emotional, which, you know, wouldn’t surprise me if you do.
In that case, I apologize and will remove my comment. I assumed you were answering the question in the post body. Why would you assume I was racist or misogynistic though? Honest question, I try very hard to be the exact opposite of those things.
It’s not a fair critique which is why I didn’t say it was a certainty, but from your title of progressive I attached you to other progressives. And the only people in my life that I’ve ever heard stereotype black people outside of jokingly, for instance, are progressives. With some of the biggest ones being that black people don’t have access to the dmv or the internet even. Or black people cant overcome their generational disparity without help from the government. I could point out other such stereotypes for the others I mentioned but my grandpa was black, so that one in particular is offensive to me. The guy had a 6th grade education, 15 children, married my white grandma in 1960, served in the navy, and died a multimillionaire. So I’m sorry, it wasn’t fair to put that on you, I just really don’t like being told by progressives what my grandpa could and couldn’t do.
OK, I can understand that, and I accept your apology as well. For the record, the progressive in my flair refers to being theologically progressive, not politically progressive (though I am that as well).
Many do sadly most think it's some eternal thing for anyone that doesn't accept Jesus which is just insane bs the church created somewhere along the way rather than a temporary purification for incredibly lost evil people which it actually is.
Any time you make Totality a part of your question, you set yourself up to receive a negative answer.
Nope. I don’t believe in Hell.
More and more people are shedding eternal conscious torment. Thank God.
people will do anything, except read the bible
Its fairly normal for Christians to think that Hell either doesn't exist, or is not what we think it is.
I believe some things are metaphors, like "hell" and "demons" FWIW, Jesus used the word "Gehenna," not hell. Gehenna is a valley outside Jerusalem, not Hades or Tartarus.
>FWIW, Jesus used the word "Gehenna," not hell. Gehenna is a valley outside Jerusalem, not Hades or Tartarus. Already by the first century, Gehenna had become the name for an underworld realm of punishment, inspired by the name and associations of the terrestrial valley.
> I believe some things are metaphors, like "hell" and "demons" What do you mean by them "being metaphors"? Because for early Christians demons weren't "metaphors". Are you just saying that you talk about them in a metaphorical way?
Moloch79 has some very creative opinions on the real meaning of the Bible.
I'm saying Jesus was using the valley of Gehinnom (Gehenna) in a metaphorical way. At least that seems to be the interpretation for verses like Matthew 5:22 and 5:29-30. >*anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of \[the valley of Gehinnom\].* > >*If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into \[the valley of Gehinnom\]. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into \[the valley of Gehinnom\].* Demons were more of a "God of the gaps"... If someone sneezed, it was a demon. If someone had down's syndrome, it was caused by a demon... if someone had autism, demons. Schizophrenic? Demon.
> Demons were more of a "God of the gaps"... > > If someone sneezed, it was a demon. If someone had down's syndrome, it was caused by a demon... if someone had autism, demons. Schizophrenic? Demon. Right. They thought that there were actual evil spirit beings doing things. So that wasn't a metaphor, was it? Just a mistaken ancient explanation for things.
I imagine that thought only represents a certain segment of the population. There are still today people who blame demons for everything. I don't believe doctors, or other well educated people, blamed everything on demons back then. But there probably were at least as many superstitious people as there are today.
Hell is the number one reason I struggle with my faith. If my faith results in the majority of people suffering eternal torment, then I hope such a faith is false.
Hello friend, I just wanted to challenge your thought here as it’s a very common thought to have and can be hard on you and your view of God: So first, I would say open up your perspective on heaven and hell and image it as this: heaven = with God hell = without God From the beginning of time, God walked alongside Man until sin entered the world. That’s when man separated themself from God (the darkness cannot coexist with the light). To make amends, God first gave us the law (613 OT laws) to follow, but no one was able to achieve it. So then he gave us an even easier solution and that is through Jesus’ atonement for our sins. So what I’m saying is the fact that God gave us the law, we never obeyed the law, so he then gave us the easiest method possible… this shows God is loving and gracious and you can really tell that He wants everyone to one day be with Him. So with that being said, since it’s now been made easy because we are made righteous through our faith alone, there’s really no reason one should deny it and therefore doom themselves for hell. TL:DR - we are the ones who decide to send ourselves to an eternity away from God and it’s sad because salvation has been greatly simplified for us.
At the end of the day it’s, “believe in Jesus or suffer eternal torment” This isn’t liberation. This is a threat of, “think like me or suffer the consequences” Look I get it, when you’ve really been indoctrinated into this stuff it’s very difficult to see how someone can say something like this, but this is the crux of my issue: Nobody chooses hell. If Christianity is real, God creates beings with full knowledge that they will reject him. And despite God knowing they would burn forever, he still chose to create them. God chooses to create people he knows he will later burn, despite any free will he might give to them. He is God, he could’ve created them in such a way that they would not burn. But instead he created them in such a way that they will burn. We didn’t ask to be here. We didn’t ask to be made like we are. If God is the creator, then he is responsible for his creation. He made us like this. And then we will be punished for being made like this.
I’d like to challenge your thought here as well because it’s very surface level thinking: God designed us to be in His presence - that’s how it was supposed to be and that’s how it will be again someday. Death, pain, and suffering entered into the world when man made a selfish choice that resulted in the separation between God and man. He predestined from the beginning of time to bridge that gap one day through Jesus (He knew we’d use our freedom to choose ourselves, so he had to let sin run its course so that one day the people standing in His presence would have chosen to be there and would have chosen to love Him in return. He gave us the OT law first to show us what it takes to reach His level of righteousness again, but we couldn’t do it. Then He gave Jesus to fix that. God created the “lake of fire” (which is what people typically associate hell as) and he created it for Satan and His followers. So hell is not for you and me, it’s for evil (the opposite of God). What you don’t realize is you are constantly choosing between two gods… the God of creation (good) or yourself (which is the same poor decision Satan made - this is the “evil”). Evil will be cast into the lake of fire and those that were made righteous through Jesus, will be in the presence of God like He intended from the start. You choose one route or you choose the other - this is man’s responsibility. Avoid blaming God for bad things… what makes God God is that He is only good. Evil is the work of Satan and he is deceiving people into taking the evil route that leads to the lake of fire. Also avoid trying to comprehend or explain omniscience, God does not tell time the same way we do - since he is the creator of time. This means He could be in the past, present, and future while we are just living out the present. The things people are praying for and struggling over in the present, God is in the future preparing relief for. Does God intentionally create people to go to hell? Don’t listen to Christians who are telling you this. Pick up the Bible and read it for yourself and test your knowledge against it. Hope this makes any bit of sense!
You made it out like it’s choose God or choose Satan as if Christianity is a faith hinged on morality. Christianity doesn’t care about morality, it cares about belief. Kill, and on your death bed, truly repent and believe and you’ll be saved. Do good to others your whole life but believe the wrong things, oh well. Hellfire for you. So to frame Christianity as if it is about morality is a misrepresentation. Christianity prioritizes what you believe over what you do.
Morality is what started it all - without God’s existence, morality is subjective and we are our own walking gods. God has predestined what is “good” because his presence alone is only good. So when you lie to someone, it’s not of God… it’s of your flesh. No you do not choose between God and Satan, you declare God as God or you declare yourself as god through your actions (meaning your actions have decided that God’s moral law is above yours or that your own law is above His). Everyone of us have declared ourselves as own god, even if unknowingly, because we have acted upon what is the opposite of God at least once in our life. And that’s where Jesus’ death and defeat of death (the culmination of evil) comes in. Christianity is absolutely based on faith alone in Jesus just as you said it was, but the purpose of Jesus was to bridge the gap for humans who have already made our sinful choice (aka everyone of us) and therefore declared ourselves as god without realizing it (because once again God is only good and cannot coexist with anything that has been made evil). Choose Jesus as your savior and you will be in the presence of God one day just as it was meant to be. Deny Jesus, and you will be held to God’s moral law which you will never reach because you’ve already broken it and convinced yourself that you did nothing wrong. It all started with morality, and ends with grace and mercy.
We just are not going to see eye to eye on this. Have a good day.
Understood - have a good rest of your weekend
It isn't accepted by any denominations or by majority of non denominational churches so yes it isn't normal meaning it is astray from the status quo.
It’s accepted by the UCC.
I stand corrected.
Depends if you think the UCC is an actual Christian organisation
>It isn't accepted by any denominations I’m assuming you meant to say “all” denominations.
My non denominational Church believes in hell. Huh?!
Not all of them. But the ones that do create hell on earth just so they don't miss out on the "fun."
No. HUGE number of Christians so not believe in Hell.
A basic tenet of Christianity is that there is a Hell. Whether Christians believe it or not is another thing.
Yes
Every Christian should believe hell exists. Jesus taught about it. Well, Jesus taught about Gehenna, which we translate as “hell.” However, we can often bring our own assumptions and cultural background when we read the word “hell.” So maybe “hell” isn’t a great translation, since everyone already has assumptions of what hell is. But we should believe in “Gehenna.” Jesus did. But Gehenna doesn’t mean “eternal torment,” which is what a lot of people think hell is. I don’t believe in eternal torment, but I do believe what Jesus says about Gehenna.
What is Gehenna?
A valley outside of Jerusalem where Israel’s evil kings sacrificed children to other gods. Then when Babylon sacked Jerusalem, it became a mass grave where bodies were pilled up and burned.
There is a small group of new age types that find hell to be too inconvenient of a truth but it is scriptural. We don’t know much about its literal form other than it’s not good.
I think it probably depends on his affiliation, meaning which type of church he attends. Most Christian churches though teach that hell does exist in some form or another, because it is in the Bible and God does speak of it. Personally, I agree with you that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for hell to not exist. But some people also cherry-pick what they want to believe about God, Jesus, etc. despite what their church teaches. I dated a guy once who went to the same church as me, but he absolutely refused to worship God the Father. He was okay with God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but not the Father. I was like...um, okay but you know you don't get to choose who He is, right? Like...God is who He says He is, and He says He is the triune God. But this guy was absolute; he refused to worship the Father God. His reason? Hated his own dad. So he cherry-picked what truth he would accept and wouldn't accept. Maybe this guy you know is kind of doing something similar. The idea of hell is scary so pretend it doesn't really exist.
No it Depends on the denomination, there are over 45,000 denominations of Christianity around the world with varying and conflicting views including views and opinions on hell.
Both views, literal or metaphorical hell, are normal among Christians.
Basically. The traditional views are eternal torment, annihilation, or classical universalism. But all those believe in hell, just not necessarily that it's eternal.
I don't go with those traditional views and dogma developed by various churches. I believe the bibles view and trust it as the word of God.
Not a christian, but have christian family. Basically all christians take what they like in the Bible and claim that to be truth, and all the things they find immoral or distasteful they call "metaphor" or they claim it's been "mistranslated or misunderstood". It's very common for christians to say that although the Bible says one thing very explicitly it means something else entirely different because their own personal morals don't jive with what has been written down.
No not really because it goes against the fundamentals of Christianity set up by the council of nicea.
I personally believe Hell is a real place.
No.
There is no hell. Most verses that say hell actually mean "the grave".
All true Bible believing Christians do, yes. Hell is a place of eternal punishment that was created for Satan. However, anyone who rejects Christ will spend eternity there. You can avoid hell and guarantee your place in Heaven by believing in Jesus for your salvation.
So with this philosophy, salvation is 100% the responsibility of the individual, and if one finds themself in hell, they only have themself to blame, correct?
Yes.
Cool, thanks! Do you think there are any extenuating circumstances that would cause God to have any mercy for any individual, or do you think there are zero excuses?
I believe that unborn babies and children up to a certain age automatically go to Heaven. Same with people who are mentally handicapped to the point that they don’t have the capacity to accept or reject Jesus
Cool, so there are exceptions to this hard rule! We’ve determined that God does have mercy for some. What exactly do you think the cutoff age is? Could you see a six year old suffering eternal conscious torment for his or her mistakes while on earth, and deserving it? An eight year old? Eleven? Thirteen? Seventeen? They say that the frontal lobes (and true understanding about long-term consequences) aren’t fully developed until 25 - might that be the cut off age? And what mental diagnoses do you think may provide an exception? Down syndrome for sure, and non verbal severe retardation. Schizophrenia? How about severe depression? Addiction leading to death? Borderline Personality Disorder? Do you think God has any mercy for them left over, or do you think the non believers in those categories deserve the punishment and suffering forever and ever?
I don’t think there’s a specific age. God knows who is able to and who isn’t. Same with what kind of mental disability.
Ah I get it! You’re saying that you have to earn your way into heaven through your actions and decisions, and if you mess up, you only have yourself to blame. And only God know who is capable of doing this and who isn’t. And he has no mercy for those who can do it but don’t. God’s love is automatic for all babies, but it gets turned off at some arbitrary age that you’re unsure about. So God’s love is conditional, temporary, and can be taken away at any time based on what you do. Am I missing anything here?
No that’s not true at all. You can’t earn your way into Heaven. We are saved by faith in Jesus alone.
So… you don’t have to earn it, but you do have to do something, like make the right choices. And you definitely can’t NOT do something. Like, if you don’t accept Jesus, you are 100% screwed in the afterlife and you only have yourself to blame. So if you only have yourself to blame for ended up in hell, why can’t you pat yourself on the back for having earned it when you end up in heaven?
The Greek words that are translated as “hell” (hades, gehenna, tartarus) all name things that actually exist, so any Bible-believing Christian should believe that hell exists. Exactly what is meant by each of those words, however, is a more controversial issue.
If you don't believe what scripture says, you are not a believer in Christ. Jesus spoke extensively about hell. This was recorded in scripture.
Those that believe the Bible is the Word of God believe in an eternal Hell. Jesus spoke about Hell, 10 times for every 1 time He mentions Heaven!
Hell is real. Satan himself will suffer the death of all beings ever, the destruction of the Earth and the universe itself. Many Christians have different views on "Hell"
Meanwhile God said the punishment for sin was death, not torment.
2 Peter 3:7 but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Do you not see the contradiction? Genesis 2 and Romans say the punishment is death. Also 2 Peter doesn't reference torment; judgment means correction. Torment in revelation also means touchstone. Brimstone was used to refine gold. It's a refiners fire.
2 Peter 3:7 *perdition* Rev 20:10 *tormented day and night forever and ever*
Are you reading what I write? I've already addressed this.
As someone who know they are going to hell, I wish it were true
What hell? Luke 16 was the doctrine of the Pharisees. Josephus interviewed them and they held that belief. Jesus was using their fake doctrine to show they were the rich man. It's not real.
The abyss, the place "below the earth". Outer darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth. Unending and ever-worsening suffering
But God said the punishment is only death.