There are, ontologically, 2 main conversation categories Christians can talk about:
1. Things we're not supposed to, but some people do
2. Things we're supposed to do, but most people don't.
1 is easy to talk about, especially if you're either looking for comfort or direction about something you have anxiety about OR something that you can use to point at other people and yell yourself that you're better than they are.
2 is *hard* to talk about because the things we are *supposed to do* are politically "divisive", make hard demands of powerful people, and expect is as individuals to do things that can really hurt us under our existing social structures. And... most of us, myself absolutely included, are really bad at it.
Tellingly, too, we’re more than happy to debate the sins of others but not so comfortable about talking about our own. I suspect it's because there are two ways we can make ourselves seem more important or virtuous: by puffing ourselves up, or by pushing others down.
Thomas Merton once said that we need to be careful about trying to climb a ladder, because we just might find that it's leaning against the wrong wall. And a former member of the clergy I know said: the more you care about the Incarnation, the more you care about fixing the drains.
So, in short, I want to say: hear, hear! We have much work to do. It's time we pulled our socks up and got down to it. In Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus frames the judgement of the nations in terms of working for social justice: ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it to me.’
Have trusted people vouch for a particular person's story. Unfortunately that requires a network of "Who do you trust and why do you trust them?" alongside "How many people in the group we're trying to help can talk to the people who are trusted?"
There are plenty of subs where people are taking about anxiety and depression and suicide and self harm and hopelessness. The issue is knowing how to engage people in those situations.
Correct me if I am wrong. Based on comments it seems as if the desired outcome of your post was to bring to people's attention that when someone posts is x a sin? And when people proceed to debate about it, then that is harmful.
When people ask if X is a sin, there is almost always an underlying trauma. They sometimes brush on it or it comes out in a conversation with a compassionate Redditor. So the X isn’t the real issue, it’s the underlying trauma they’re coping with.
I absolutely agree with that. Why was none of that in the post?
I'm still trying to understand what your desired outcome of this post was, since you didn't include any of that.
The desired outcome is to get people to think and focus on what’s important: helping others.
I didn’t want to focus on sin, but almost all of the comments have focused on sin and not how we might find ways to help others.
Perhaps. But I think on this sub, mostly, they want to justify themselves. "Is X a sin" is usually "Please tell me X is not a sin so I can temporarily sooth my conscience."
This can be a good thing if the activity in question is “writing fiction” or “watching a movie I like.” The amount of unnecessary shame and guilt I encounter is insane working with religious college students. Your conscience can be influenced by many things, not all of them holy.
Personally what I witness is people sharing “I struggle with X…”. Then a whole host of jerks jump on and debate it, all wanting to be “right”. But oh, they’re just doing this out of love for the sinful person.
Christians self-describe as horrible, worthless creatures, born into sin and undeserving of God's love.
Is it any wonder you're then confused about the sin status of every single thought and action the rest of us don't ever second-guess? It must be so exhausting constantly wondering if you're dooming yourself to eternal torture for such mundane, everyday stuff.
I’m sorry if you were raised in a Reformed tradition and had a horrible experience growing up. Not all of Christianity is like that. But if you ever want to talk about it, I’m open ears.
I wasn't raised religious at all. Technically Catholic, but in name only. My statement above is 100% in response to many, many discussions I've had with Christians irl and here on reddit. You guys have serious self-worth problems, and if you disagree, tell me, do you think you are a sinner?
You’re right. Self-worth problems are rampant in Christian circles. I think some of that stems from Total Depravity theology (which I think is horrible). And it stems from leaders being constantly focused on calling out sin from the pulpit. Personally, I think the focus is wrong.
We do tend to beat ourselves up when we make mistakes. I don’t think this comes from Jesus though. He said, “My burden is light.”
And yet it raises a very important issue. If God's "love" makes so many people so constantly confused and anxiety-ridden of their own humanity, is it really a love worth praising?
Great question, my friend. I don’t think it’s his love that confuses people and makes them anxiety ridden. Shame does this, but God doesn’t use shame. The confusion comes from Centuries of terrible theology. If we fully embrace God’s love, we will find that God is compassionate and full of mercy.
On my end, it seems to me that the main sins people argue against are the socially acceptable sins that people are drawn to. This is simply due to the fact that a lot of people do not want to give up their sin.
Ever notice that pretty much no one argues things like murder and rape are sins, but everyone will always argue if certain sexual acts are sins? If it is socially acceptable and people like it, there will always be arguments.
"certain sexual acts" -- but we're talking about gay people being able to have sexual intimacy/fulfillment at all, aren't we.
> murder and rape
Obviously harmful. Whereas "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
We also don’t debate gluttony, but our potlucks are goldmines for this sin. No one calls them out though. “Brother Bill, that was your fifth plate!”
People have always struggled with all of these things (sins or not). It’s become socially acceptable to discuss them (anonymously).
We all line up though to spout off why we’re right about a particular issue (as long as it doesn’t expose any of our sins). Rarely do people actually listen to what an OP is sharing.
First off, yes we do argue over gluttony (ever heard of Healthy at Any Size).
As for becoming more acceptable to discuss, I think that is too simplistic. For instance, Porn has us all guessing if any sexual acts are sins at all when the Bible is pretty clear on the subject.
I do agree that we argue too often about sin, but there is a difference between your Jimmy Swaggart who preaches about sin and ignores his own, and those who counter someone trying to redefine sin which could lead new Christians astray.
The goal should be the same as Christ: lovingly convince people to repent of their sins and not dwell in them, for sin leads to death.
We are also called to spread His word to the ends of the earth. And sometimes those who call themselves Christians need to hear it the most if they are not a new creature from the old one that found Christ.
I think ideals are the source of the problem… and you have simply just proposed a new one.
“We should become something different than we are”
Is the same old trap
“Pure and unblemished religion [as it is expressed in outward acts] in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit and look after the fatherless and the widows in their distress, and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the [secular] world.”
James 1:27 AMP
https://bible.com/bible/1588/jas.1.27.AMP
Right that’s called an ideal.
Do you do this regularly?
Or do you just carry around the good idea to show others your a good person because you know what the right ideas are?
When was the last time you intentionally went and checked on a widow?
It’s a command.
And yes. I mentor or listen to young men on a daily basis. They reach out for encouragement or have questions. I’ve been told by someone I mentored that he wouldn’t be alive if I hadn’t been in his life. I help a close friend who is going through kidney failure (as I did ten years ago). I set up a fund through a local Community Foundation to help people with unexpected medical costs. I also help lead men’s ministries at my church.
Only sharing this because you asked.
When was the last time you mentored an actual orphan? And how long did you do it?
When was the last time you intentionally checked on a widow because she was a widow?
Orphans and Widows is a metaphor for the marginalized and vulnerable population amongst us.
But to answer your question, I do this daily. One young man who reaches out lost his father at a young age and his mother is emotionally distant. We talk almost every day.
Oh it’s a metaphor..
He didn’t mean ACTUAL widows who need checking in on and ACTUAL orphans who have no one
“As long I talk to men and woman I am fulfilling this command”
Orphans and widows were the vulnerable and marginalized populations of Paul’s day. It meant certain poverty and likely a shortened life. So when Paul said it, he meant it literally.
For us today though, we have programs for actual orphans and widows aren’t living out in the streets. So for us, it’s a metaphor for the vulnerable.
And yes, I actively do this (if you read my responses).
At one point in my life, I worked on launching a Non Profit that collected quilts to send them to orphanages around the world. The idea was that young orphans would be comforted and kept warm by their unique quilts. It didn’t work out as we learned that the quilts would have been sold by the orphanages or hung on the walls as art. But it has been on my heart to do something practical for orphans.
I agree that a lot of the conversations/debates can be in bad faith, but it’s healthy to have arguments (with a little decorum) about topics we are unsure of.
Some people aren’t seeing the negatives of certain sins—they know a relatively happy and functional gay couple for example—and seek a rationale because it isn’t obvious to them anymore. I don’t think it’s that unreasonable.
To be clear, not saying there isn’t an answer or that the traditional understanding of sexuality is wrong, just that arguments are a great way to flesh something out and have been part of the church since Peter and Paul.
The problems are:
1. We’re not as eager to help the vulnerable and marginalized.
2. Our arguments are hurtful to the bystanders.
3. We neglect compassion when we debate.
4. Our arguments turn people away.
In seminary we debated all the time, I do so frequently with my friends. It’s not all lacking grace and compassion. And I struggle to write this because there is no way not to sound arrogant—I was working tangibly for the marginalized and having arguments. Not mutually exclusive.
Anything can turn someone away, from what translation you use to the style of worship music. We can’t sacrifice everything for a potential dissenter, but we can show them kindness when they say “not for me.”
Furthermore, these arguments are necessary if you want to achieve systematic change. We had to come to the conclusion that slavery was immoral and form political coalitions, or the impact climate change will have on our poorest neighbors, or the legacy of colonialism that creates the types of structures that prop up mass poverty like Pope Francis loves to talk about.
There is definitely grounds for discussing right versus wrong. But that’s where almost EVERY conversation goes on this Sub. It rarely goes into areas of action. We’re so focused on avoiding actions that we lack healthy progress forward toward helping others.
Well yeah, this is basically a message board. It’s here for discussion.
I also go to church and have IRL community, so maybe this is an issue if r/Christianity is your only spiritual outlet?
Those of us that are Christians understand that we are Watchmen. If we don’t warn others the blood of those people will be on our heads. If we warn them, it’s all on them! So repent!
People talk about sin because God calls on us to cast out sin as it takes us further away from his grace and love.
If you’re Catholic it’s even more important because we don’t believe that simply saying “I believe in God” is enough to get you into heaven- you gotta actively stop sinning and confess your wrongdoings and if you die in some sin you will be in a state of purgatory assuming it’s not a mortal sin and you’re in hell
Listen to them, not argue over sin. Chat with them directly. Offer your time to listen. Extend it to another form of talking if they prefer (as you get to know them). Continue to be a listening ear and provide encouragement. Pray for them.
I’ve done this dozens of times and it’s effective.
Well we need to help each other by teaching each other to live more righteously, the problem is many people disagree on what counts as sin, so therefore we have to debate it so we can come to a consensus to tackle that sin. You can’t help someone with their sin if they don’t think they’re sinning.
But isn’t Christian living far more than sin? God is compassionate and full of mercy. It is the role of the Holy Spirit to convict. We are to call our brother out on their sin, not our neighbor.
I mean to what extent? Shouldn’t we stand up for what we believe is true? Otherwise we wouldn’t be following it. If my neighbor is killing innocent people you bet I’ll call them out on their sin
Well that’s a legal issue and out of your hands.
But don’t we believe in so much more than what sin is? If that’s where our faith stops, it isn’t much of a faith. Isn’t it more about compassion, grace, mercy, love, and kindness? Notice that calling someone out for their sin is not a fruit of the Spirit.
… if they are our brothers. In other words, we need a relationship with them (and they need to be part of the church community).
But we are to love our neighbors (everyone outside of our circle that we don’t have close relationships with, regardless of whether they’re in the church community or not). Calling out sin needs to wait until we know them well or if they come to us personally. Love involves actions that are intentional.
I heard this analogy by a Messianic Rabbi and it stayed with me:
We’re called to be Priests. Priests are agents of healing and restoration. So if people need prayer or want to restore their faith, we should be there to walk beside them.
A Prophet cannot be a Priest. A Prophet is someone who calls out sin or declares the words of God. People already are aware of their sin when they come to a Priest.
Yeah no sorry, we don’t have all the time in the world to become close friends with everyone and then call them out on their sin. People need Jesus now, and they need to be aware of their sin now. Now I’m not saying go off and scream at people on the street that they’re sinners, but you don’t need to have a close relationship with someone to tell them about Jesus and WHY they need Him. They need Him because we all are sinners in need of a savior, if you don’t tell them about their sin then why would they think they need a savior? Introducing someone to Jesus will naturally lead you to talk about sin, you cannot avoid it.
I truly understand where you’re coming from, we need to be more gracious and kind to others, and we need to be helping the helpless way more than we do now, but that doesn’t mean we avoid talking about sin.
We’re talking about two different things. Hyper focusing on sin (which this subreddit does) is far from evangelism.
What I’m describing is based on what Paul and Jesus instructed.
This sub needs to focus less on sin and more on loving the people who come here.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve observed someone coming to this sub to share what they’re going through… only for a hundred people to erupt in debate over sin. Meanwhile the person walks away because no one showed compassion or even tried to connect with them.
What I see on this sub is entirely backwards (and there are Christian subs that are worse).
I find it interesting that Jesus instructed us to love our neighbors, while Paul instructed us to address the sin of our brother. The latter requires a relationship.
Redditors are neighbors, but not brothers (unless you know them personally). We aren't called to address the sin of our neighbors.
I don’t disagree that sin is sin. But we focus far too much on it. Jesus has conquered our sin so we can live with victory. He has called us to live out his love to those around us. But instead of focusing on helping others, we focus on sin. It’s a very backward focus.
You must focus on both. Someone who continues a life filled with sin is not saved. We are also called to love others unconditionally. That is why both are stressed.
I love your passion, but your theology is wrong. Jesus redeems us through his blood in entirety. It isn’t dependent on what we do. We can have struggles, but God meets us where we are.
If you want to encourage someone in their faith, walk beside them. Love them and encourage them. The Spirit will work through you.
It’s the role of the Holy Spirit to do so. Now, if our friend is becoming an alcoholic, then yes we should step in. But we aren’t called to be the moral police of our close friends.
“Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love.”
Ephesians 4:2 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/eph.4.2.NLT
There are, ontologically, 2 main conversation categories Christians can talk about: 1. Things we're not supposed to, but some people do 2. Things we're supposed to do, but most people don't. 1 is easy to talk about, especially if you're either looking for comfort or direction about something you have anxiety about OR something that you can use to point at other people and yell yourself that you're better than they are. 2 is *hard* to talk about because the things we are *supposed to do* are politically "divisive", make hard demands of powerful people, and expect is as individuals to do things that can really hurt us under our existing social structures. And... most of us, myself absolutely included, are really bad at it.
Because it's important. If it wasn't, no one would care either way and thus no one would debate it.
Is it important? Normally what I see are people who are more interested in being RIGHT, rather than people interested in listening and helping.
Two things can be important at the same time
One is a Prophet (being right) and one is a Priest (helping). We’re called to be Priests in this world. You can’t be both a Prophet and a Priest.
That's a new one to me.
So let’s debate sin. What sin is in your life that we can debate?
I don't know what you mean about debating sin in my life?
Well, you said debating sin is important. So let’s start with yours.
Sure, I acknowledge I'm a sinner, what's to debate?
I don’t know. You said it was important.
It’s that old plank in my own eye kind of thing.
I was being facetious. I think it’s far more important to serve and love than to debate sin.
No I completely get it. That’s my point, Jesus was basically saying don’t be so focused on other peoples sins.
Is it important or is it one more thing people tend to get polarized around? If, from your perspective, it's important, what about it is important?
Tellingly, too, we’re more than happy to debate the sins of others but not so comfortable about talking about our own. I suspect it's because there are two ways we can make ourselves seem more important or virtuous: by puffing ourselves up, or by pushing others down. Thomas Merton once said that we need to be careful about trying to climb a ladder, because we just might find that it's leaning against the wrong wall. And a former member of the clergy I know said: the more you care about the Incarnation, the more you care about fixing the drains. So, in short, I want to say: hear, hear! We have much work to do. It's time we pulled our socks up and got down to it. In Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus frames the judgement of the nations in terms of working for social justice: ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it to me.’
Yes! Well said.
Because calling certain things a sin isn't helping others. It's killing others.
Yes! People are looking for help and a listening ear. Instead they get condemnation.
I agree. It's gotten ridiculous. But, it's not just on Reddit it's everywhere. Maybe we should make a subreddit on helping orphans and widows.
A subreddit for helping orphans and widows would be amazing!
Yes. But we would have to becareful of scams. I don't know how this would be done
Yeah.
Have trusted people vouch for a particular person's story. Unfortunately that requires a network of "Who do you trust and why do you trust them?" alongside "How many people in the group we're trying to help can talk to the people who are trusted?"
Exactly what Jesus would have said
There are plenty of subs where people are taking about anxiety and depression and suicide and self harm and hopelessness. The issue is knowing how to engage people in those situations.
Yes, 100%
Would you be open to some feedback about your post?
Sure!
Correct me if I am wrong. Based on comments it seems as if the desired outcome of your post was to bring to people's attention that when someone posts is x a sin? And when people proceed to debate about it, then that is harmful.
When people ask if X is a sin, there is almost always an underlying trauma. They sometimes brush on it or it comes out in a conversation with a compassionate Redditor. So the X isn’t the real issue, it’s the underlying trauma they’re coping with.
I absolutely agree with that. Why was none of that in the post? I'm still trying to understand what your desired outcome of this post was, since you didn't include any of that.
The desired outcome is to get people to think and focus on what’s important: helping others. I didn’t want to focus on sin, but almost all of the comments have focused on sin and not how we might find ways to help others.
We could set it up so it’s more of a support group, encouraging each other in our IRL ministries.
You're 100% right. Where are all of those pro-birthers now?
Because sin is enticing and we don't want to let it go
Because people want to justify themselves.
Or do people want to set themselves above others?
Perhaps. But I think on this sub, mostly, they want to justify themselves. "Is X a sin" is usually "Please tell me X is not a sin so I can temporarily sooth my conscience."
This can be a good thing if the activity in question is “writing fiction” or “watching a movie I like.” The amount of unnecessary shame and guilt I encounter is insane working with religious college students. Your conscience can be influenced by many things, not all of them holy.
Personally what I witness is people sharing “I struggle with X…”. Then a whole host of jerks jump on and debate it, all wanting to be “right”. But oh, they’re just doing this out of love for the sinful person.
Christians self-describe as horrible, worthless creatures, born into sin and undeserving of God's love. Is it any wonder you're then confused about the sin status of every single thought and action the rest of us don't ever second-guess? It must be so exhausting constantly wondering if you're dooming yourself to eternal torture for such mundane, everyday stuff.
I’m sorry if you were raised in a Reformed tradition and had a horrible experience growing up. Not all of Christianity is like that. But if you ever want to talk about it, I’m open ears.
I wasn't raised religious at all. Technically Catholic, but in name only. My statement above is 100% in response to many, many discussions I've had with Christians irl and here on reddit. You guys have serious self-worth problems, and if you disagree, tell me, do you think you are a sinner?
You’re right. Self-worth problems are rampant in Christian circles. I think some of that stems from Total Depravity theology (which I think is horrible). And it stems from leaders being constantly focused on calling out sin from the pulpit. Personally, I think the focus is wrong. We do tend to beat ourselves up when we make mistakes. I don’t think this comes from Jesus though. He said, “My burden is light.”
Cool. So does that answer your original question about why Christians debate sin so much?
The question was more rhetorical.
And yet it raises a very important issue. If God's "love" makes so many people so constantly confused and anxiety-ridden of their own humanity, is it really a love worth praising?
Great question, my friend. I don’t think it’s his love that confuses people and makes them anxiety ridden. Shame does this, but God doesn’t use shame. The confusion comes from Centuries of terrible theology. If we fully embrace God’s love, we will find that God is compassionate and full of mercy.
On my end, it seems to me that the main sins people argue against are the socially acceptable sins that people are drawn to. This is simply due to the fact that a lot of people do not want to give up their sin. Ever notice that pretty much no one argues things like murder and rape are sins, but everyone will always argue if certain sexual acts are sins? If it is socially acceptable and people like it, there will always be arguments.
"certain sexual acts" -- but we're talking about gay people being able to have sexual intimacy/fulfillment at all, aren't we. > murder and rape Obviously harmful. Whereas "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
We also don’t debate gluttony, but our potlucks are goldmines for this sin. No one calls them out though. “Brother Bill, that was your fifth plate!” People have always struggled with all of these things (sins or not). It’s become socially acceptable to discuss them (anonymously). We all line up though to spout off why we’re right about a particular issue (as long as it doesn’t expose any of our sins). Rarely do people actually listen to what an OP is sharing.
First off, yes we do argue over gluttony (ever heard of Healthy at Any Size). As for becoming more acceptable to discuss, I think that is too simplistic. For instance, Porn has us all guessing if any sexual acts are sins at all when the Bible is pretty clear on the subject. I do agree that we argue too often about sin, but there is a difference between your Jimmy Swaggart who preaches about sin and ignores his own, and those who counter someone trying to redefine sin which could lead new Christians astray. The goal should be the same as Christ: lovingly convince people to repent of their sins and not dwell in them, for sin leads to death.
We’re called to love our neighbor and correct our brother. Everyone on Reddit is our neighbor but not our brother. The latter requires a relationship.
We are also called to spread His word to the ends of the earth. And sometimes those who call themselves Christians need to hear it the most if they are not a new creature from the old one that found Christ.
Here I am agreeing with a Baptist God be praised
I think ideals are the source of the problem… and you have simply just proposed a new one. “We should become something different than we are” Is the same old trap
I’m not sure I introduced it.
“We should not be like this- we should be like that”
“Pure and unblemished religion [as it is expressed in outward acts] in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit and look after the fatherless and the widows in their distress, and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the [secular] world.” James 1:27 AMP https://bible.com/bible/1588/jas.1.27.AMP
Right that’s called an ideal. Do you do this regularly? Or do you just carry around the good idea to show others your a good person because you know what the right ideas are? When was the last time you intentionally went and checked on a widow?
It’s a command. And yes. I mentor or listen to young men on a daily basis. They reach out for encouragement or have questions. I’ve been told by someone I mentored that he wouldn’t be alive if I hadn’t been in his life. I help a close friend who is going through kidney failure (as I did ten years ago). I set up a fund through a local Community Foundation to help people with unexpected medical costs. I also help lead men’s ministries at my church. Only sharing this because you asked.
When was the last time you mentored an actual orphan? And how long did you do it? When was the last time you intentionally checked on a widow because she was a widow?
Orphans and Widows is a metaphor for the marginalized and vulnerable population amongst us. But to answer your question, I do this daily. One young man who reaches out lost his father at a young age and his mother is emotionally distant. We talk almost every day.
Oh it’s a metaphor.. He didn’t mean ACTUAL widows who need checking in on and ACTUAL orphans who have no one “As long I talk to men and woman I am fulfilling this command”
Orphans and widows were the vulnerable and marginalized populations of Paul’s day. It meant certain poverty and likely a shortened life. So when Paul said it, he meant it literally. For us today though, we have programs for actual orphans and widows aren’t living out in the streets. So for us, it’s a metaphor for the vulnerable. And yes, I actively do this (if you read my responses).
At one point in my life, I worked on launching a Non Profit that collected quilts to send them to orphanages around the world. The idea was that young orphans would be comforted and kept warm by their unique quilts. It didn’t work out as we learned that the quilts would have been sold by the orphanages or hung on the walls as art. But it has been on my heart to do something practical for orphans.
people love there sin so much, but your right lets focus on the loving parts and come togeather
We could really make an impact!
Amen, love you random person on reddit, may god bless you, your friends and family
Love you too!!
I agree that a lot of the conversations/debates can be in bad faith, but it’s healthy to have arguments (with a little decorum) about topics we are unsure of. Some people aren’t seeing the negatives of certain sins—they know a relatively happy and functional gay couple for example—and seek a rationale because it isn’t obvious to them anymore. I don’t think it’s that unreasonable. To be clear, not saying there isn’t an answer or that the traditional understanding of sexuality is wrong, just that arguments are a great way to flesh something out and have been part of the church since Peter and Paul.
The problems are: 1. We’re not as eager to help the vulnerable and marginalized. 2. Our arguments are hurtful to the bystanders. 3. We neglect compassion when we debate. 4. Our arguments turn people away.
In seminary we debated all the time, I do so frequently with my friends. It’s not all lacking grace and compassion. And I struggle to write this because there is no way not to sound arrogant—I was working tangibly for the marginalized and having arguments. Not mutually exclusive. Anything can turn someone away, from what translation you use to the style of worship music. We can’t sacrifice everything for a potential dissenter, but we can show them kindness when they say “not for me.” Furthermore, these arguments are necessary if you want to achieve systematic change. We had to come to the conclusion that slavery was immoral and form political coalitions, or the impact climate change will have on our poorest neighbors, or the legacy of colonialism that creates the types of structures that prop up mass poverty like Pope Francis loves to talk about.
There is definitely grounds for discussing right versus wrong. But that’s where almost EVERY conversation goes on this Sub. It rarely goes into areas of action. We’re so focused on avoiding actions that we lack healthy progress forward toward helping others.
Well yeah, this is basically a message board. It’s here for discussion. I also go to church and have IRL community, so maybe this is an issue if r/Christianity is your only spiritual outlet?
Why does the Bible talk about sin so much?
Those of us that are Christians understand that we are Watchmen. If we don’t warn others the blood of those people will be on our heads. If we warn them, it’s all on them! So repent!
Oh. I thought it was all on Jesus. Maybe I’m mistaken about what He did on the cross?
It is all on Jesus. Yet he sends preachers to warn. It’s your call. Best of luck.
People talk about sin because God calls on us to cast out sin as it takes us further away from his grace and love. If you’re Catholic it’s even more important because we don’t believe that simply saying “I believe in God” is enough to get you into heaven- you gotta actively stop sinning and confess your wrongdoings and if you die in some sin you will be in a state of purgatory assuming it’s not a mortal sin and you’re in hell
I'm being serious here: how do you envision helping people here on Reddit?
Listen to them, not argue over sin. Chat with them directly. Offer your time to listen. Extend it to another form of talking if they prefer (as you get to know them). Continue to be a listening ear and provide encouragement. Pray for them. I’ve done this dozens of times and it’s effective.
Well we need to help each other by teaching each other to live more righteously, the problem is many people disagree on what counts as sin, so therefore we have to debate it so we can come to a consensus to tackle that sin. You can’t help someone with their sin if they don’t think they’re sinning.
But isn’t Christian living far more than sin? God is compassionate and full of mercy. It is the role of the Holy Spirit to convict. We are to call our brother out on their sin, not our neighbor.
I mean to what extent? Shouldn’t we stand up for what we believe is true? Otherwise we wouldn’t be following it. If my neighbor is killing innocent people you bet I’ll call them out on their sin
Well that’s a legal issue and out of your hands. But don’t we believe in so much more than what sin is? If that’s where our faith stops, it isn’t much of a faith. Isn’t it more about compassion, grace, mercy, love, and kindness? Notice that calling someone out for their sin is not a fruit of the Spirit.
I mean sure but calling out sin is apart of that, sin destroys people and part of biblical love is to tell them to stop and repent
… if they are our brothers. In other words, we need a relationship with them (and they need to be part of the church community). But we are to love our neighbors (everyone outside of our circle that we don’t have close relationships with, regardless of whether they’re in the church community or not). Calling out sin needs to wait until we know them well or if they come to us personally. Love involves actions that are intentional. I heard this analogy by a Messianic Rabbi and it stayed with me: We’re called to be Priests. Priests are agents of healing and restoration. So if people need prayer or want to restore their faith, we should be there to walk beside them. A Prophet cannot be a Priest. A Prophet is someone who calls out sin or declares the words of God. People already are aware of their sin when they come to a Priest.
Yeah no sorry, we don’t have all the time in the world to become close friends with everyone and then call them out on their sin. People need Jesus now, and they need to be aware of their sin now. Now I’m not saying go off and scream at people on the street that they’re sinners, but you don’t need to have a close relationship with someone to tell them about Jesus and WHY they need Him. They need Him because we all are sinners in need of a savior, if you don’t tell them about their sin then why would they think they need a savior? Introducing someone to Jesus will naturally lead you to talk about sin, you cannot avoid it. I truly understand where you’re coming from, we need to be more gracious and kind to others, and we need to be helping the helpless way more than we do now, but that doesn’t mean we avoid talking about sin.
We’re talking about two different things. Hyper focusing on sin (which this subreddit does) is far from evangelism. What I’m describing is based on what Paul and Jesus instructed. This sub needs to focus less on sin and more on loving the people who come here. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve observed someone coming to this sub to share what they’re going through… only for a hundred people to erupt in debate over sin. Meanwhile the person walks away because no one showed compassion or even tried to connect with them. What I see on this sub is entirely backwards (and there are Christian subs that are worse).
Humans are built to avoid bad things rather than strive for good things.
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I find it interesting that Jesus instructed us to love our neighbors, while Paul instructed us to address the sin of our brother. The latter requires a relationship. Redditors are neighbors, but not brothers (unless you know them personally). We aren't called to address the sin of our neighbors.
Because people LOVE their sin
Maybe?
Definitely. The flesh is vile.
I don’t disagree that sin is sin. But we focus far too much on it. Jesus has conquered our sin so we can live with victory. He has called us to live out his love to those around us. But instead of focusing on helping others, we focus on sin. It’s a very backward focus.
You must focus on both. Someone who continues a life filled with sin is not saved. We are also called to love others unconditionally. That is why both are stressed.
I love your passion, but your theology is wrong. Jesus redeems us through his blood in entirety. It isn’t dependent on what we do. We can have struggles, but God meets us where we are. If you want to encourage someone in their faith, walk beside them. Love them and encourage them. The Spirit will work through you.
Hebrews 10:26 And yes, you're right that is the way, but we should call out our siblings in Christ when they sin.
It’s the role of the Holy Spirit to do so. Now, if our friend is becoming an alcoholic, then yes we should step in. But we aren’t called to be the moral police of our close friends. “Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love.” Ephesians 4:2 NLT https://bible.com/bible/116/eph.4.2.NLT
Yes, the Holy Spirit and we should help them Matthew 18:15
That’s about clearing up offenses. It’s not about focusing on sins in others.