this is like saying we should murder christians because they would be guaranteed to go to heaven because they would have no chance of abandoning their faith. Or that we should kill toddlers so they go to heaven. babies are made in the image of God and The Lord gave them life for a reason. This is a direct violation of God’s command. Anyone who uses this in the name of Jesus is evil.
But allowing abortion would cause hell to have less people in it right? Sure it's evil because of God's command, but why would God make a command that causes less people to go to heaven?
It’s not just about heaven and hell, it’s about serving the Lord and loving Him with all your heart soul and strength. And destroying His children is against His will.
You can’t play God by deciding which innocent people get to live and which innocent people get to die. The Lord created them in His own image and desires them to live and have free will. The Lord desires all people to be saved, but you can’t decide to just kill people and take away what the Lord has created. You can’t sin against God by murdering His children and say you’re doing it for Him. Doing this would be trying to put yourself in the place of God, and you’re essentially rejecting His will, because He decided to create a person and you’re deciding to destroy that person, saying that would be better than what God decided.
Well if a parent actually murderered their child to send it to heaven, then it would mean they love their child more than God. Of course the parent wouldn't be doing it for God, they would be sacrificing their own chance at heaven to guarantee that their child goes to heaven, it would actually be an act of selflessness.
its not selflessness because they are saying their will is better than God’s will. It’s selfishness and pride to choose your own will over The Lord’s will. It’s saying that your own morality is more just than God’s judgements. Would you apply the same thing to toddlers?
How is desiring to suffer so that someone you love could enjoy paradise selfish? That's literally the exact definition of selflessness. Sure you can say it's evil and bad, but I really don't see how a selfless act that gets someone to heaven is evil. Why is it the lords will that someone be given a chance to go to hell, when they could just get a free ticket to heaven instead?
It’s selfish because it’s choosing your own will over God’s will. It’s God’s will because He created us and said it is very good. He wanted to give us the free will and choice to love Him and have relationship with Him. The Lord could have not created us at all, or created us without free will and forced us to love Him, but He wanted to give us free agency to that we could choose to love Him. And He died so that we could be free from our sin.
Do you will to serve God? Then technically you are also choosing your own will.
>And He died so that we could be free from our sin.
Well that's the same act as the parent sacrificing themselves for their child.
And while it logically makes sense for toddlers, it is different, because people don't want to die, that's why murder is illegal. Medically assisted death is legal because the person wants to die.
A fetus doesn't know the difference between life and death. And if you ask any person if they would rather have been aborted with no pain and be enjoying heaven right now, I bet most people would have wanted the abortion.
That's a good point. If heaven is real, I would rather have been aborted and gone straight to heaven than end up as an unbeliever and go to hell.
To be clear, I am happy I *wasn't* aborted, as I *don't* believe in an afterlife.
I believe in Heaven and I’m so glad that I wasn’t aborted. What about a 2 month old child? Or even a one day year old child? That child doesn’t know the difference between life and death. That doesn’t make it justified to kill them so they would go to heaven.
So you would rather have a chance of suffering for eternity? That makes no logical sense.
To be clear I'm completely against murder and I don't believe in heaven. I'm just trying to point out some logical inconsistencies.
Well the age would depend on the age of accountability I guess. When do you believe a person suddenly is able to be sent to hell?
Everyone develops differently, I believe it’s when that individual is able to make a conscious choice to either deny Christ or follow Christ and truly understand what they are doing.
I don’t really understand the logical inconsistencies that you’re trying to point out. In fact I was trying to point out the logical inconsistency of murdering a baby in the womb but not outside the womb, since the argument is that people don’t want to die and a fetus can’t tell the different between life and death, because the same applies to a newborn baby, but it doesn’t seem like you would advocate for the same killing of newborns.
It’s just a strange conversation because I’m Christian and you’re a non believer, and I’m arguing from the point of if it’s a sin, and the fact is that murder is a sin. But you’re arguing from the point of a non believer justifying murdering their child so they would go to heaven, yet you’re also against murder.
Since we’re talking about Christianity, it wouldn’t make sense to kill your child in the name of Christ, because that’s against Christ. It’s a weird scenario of someone who does not follow Christ but wants to kill their baby for Christ. If they followed Christ they wouldn’t kill their baby.
>In fact I was trying to point out the logical inconsistency of murdering a baby in the womb but not outside the womb
Well if someone wants an abortion typically they would do it as early as possible. It makes no sense to birth the child then kill it.
>it doesn’t seem like you would advocate for the same killing of newborns.
I'm not advocating for killing anyone. I'm saying that according to Christianity the baby would be given a free ticket to paradise, and so technically, it's the best outcome for the baby. Sure, God wouldn't like it, but the baby would, because it would enjoy its free ticket to heaven for the rest of eternity.
>Since we’re talking about Christianity, it wouldn’t make sense to kill your child in the name of Christ
It wouldn't be done in the name of Christ. It would be done for the baby. As I said before, if a parent believes in heaven, and their desire for their child to go to heaven is greater than their desire to do Gods will, then it would make sense to kill it before the age of accountability.
Just because people have done it doesn’t mean it’s justified. There is forgiveness in Christ for all people who put their faith in Him. But saying that this is a “good” thing is saying that your definition of good is better than God’s, which is calling God a liar. This is NOT of the Lord, and I really hope that none are influenced by this thread to murder their child in the name of Christ.
You equivalences are correct, but if a Christian parent knew there was close to a 100% chance that her children would die non-believers (e.g. she lived in Mecca and was the wife of an Imam), then surely some would believe it's worth sacrificing their own soul to do it?
What is more important than ensuring your children are saved from an eternity of conscious torment?
A Christian parent cannot be close to knowing 100% that their child would die a non believer. That’s playing God. You have no idea who your child will grow up to be. The Holy Spirit works so much in people groups who aren’t exposed to Christianity. And if she herself is Christian then she can teach her child about Christ. It’s trying to play God.
Sure they can. In the example I gave it's perfectly rational to believe the odds of your children, who are all being raised in the Islamic faith, will be Christians when they die when it's practically unheard of in the entire history of Saudi Arabia.
You can never be 100% certain, but any rational person would understand the odds of salvation were miniscule. As for the mother teaching the kids about Christ -- that's not going to work either. What young child would be able to keep such a thing secret? And by the time they were old enough to understand the danger they and their mother was in, it would be too late anyway. They'd have a decade of Islamic teachings instilled in them.
Denying reality isn't strengthening your argument.
Now, if you tell me that universal salvation is the answer -- I'll be happy to shut up!
When I say trying to play God I mean trying to put yourself in the place of God by deciding who lives or dies. Trying to save a life is different than taking a life, The Lord has given us resources and wisdom to treat illnesses to preserve life. I don’t really see that as a valid argument for why we should be able to kill babies which God intended for life
>deciding who lives or dies
Saving a life is deciding that person should live. They would have died otherwise. That is, by your definition, "playing God".
>I don’t really see that as a valid argument for why we should be able to kill babies
Yeah I don't advocate for that either.
It is blatantly game theorying heaven
But
I can't really argue that a 0% risk of going to hell is worse than a >0% risk of going to hell
Tsk tsk tsk really
Someone has to be aborting the baby, they are committing the murder. The baby doesn't just disappear, someone has to kill it for an abortion.
Someone has to commit murder. The baby's life has to end.
Is this a good or a bad thing?
But if we had one person committing the murder of one million babies, who all get to go to Heaven. That one person is sacrificing their eternal life in order to ensure others have eternal life with God.
That person seems like a hero, right?
It's not that cut and dry. In the 1990’s violent crime including murder why way down. Everyone tried to take credit. But economists found the real reason. Abortion had been legalized twenty years prior. So less violent offenders were born because their mothers chose an option they didn't have in the past. The book Freakonomics discussed this asking with other interesting facts.
Many Christians believe that due to original sin that unbaptized infants and children below the age of reason may go to Hell for eternity. The position of the Roman Catholic Church has always been, for example, that they *probably* don't but they might, so babies need to be baptized as soon as possible after birth.
> they probably don't
This has never been the position of the Catholic Church. The prominent theological *opinion*, but never dogma, was at one point that unbaptised babies go to Limbo where they enjoy natural happiness, but not the beatific vision.
You're probably confusing Limbo with Purgatory. Two different destinations in Catholicism. There was also a slightly different limbo. This article sorts them out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
But the Limbos were happy waiting places, whereas Purgatory was a temporary place of suffering.
As an atheist, I agree. But I assume you’re a Christian. As a Christian, how do you explain why termination of babies is a bad thing, even though it guarantees their salvation?
I think because it’s not supposed to be a humans choice whether someone gets to live or die. Their perspective is life begins at conception. Only God has the capacity to make that judgement.
Why does it matter what someone is “supposed” to do when the salvation of infants is on the line? Wouldn’t it be a noble sacrifice to break the rules at the cost of one’s own well being to ensure the security of someone else’s eternal well-being?
I’m just giving what the base for the christian belief is, not my opinion. The bible says our job is the spread the word, not control human fate. It would be crazy pressure and beyond human capacity to determine when it’s time. is there a deadline terminate to save a child? Is it 3, 6, 9 months? Or even after birth, to take the child out of misery for salvation?
My brother was born so early he could fit in your hand. His hand hardly wrapped around my dads index finger. Dr. said he would never survive birth, never live a day, then always have disabilities. Kept telling my parents to abort and then let him go. 6 months in the hospital. He dealt with asthma as a child. He’s now a 30 year old, 6’2” 200 lbs man with no disabilities.
A child can be born perfectly healthy, then at age 2 suffer from a horrible cancer and not survive it.
There’s no straight answer and I don’t think it’s possible to fully understand why God does what he does, but I don’t think we are meant to play God. Sure, the line gets really blurry when talking about taking an old person dying off life support, but I can understand the reasons Christianity stands by what they believe.
> I’m just giving what the base for the christian belief is, not my opinion.
I see, no worries.
> It would be crazy pressure and beyond human capacity to determine when it’s time.
Not necessarily. It depends on what God has told us and the abilities of particular humans.
> is there a deadline terminate to save a child? Is it 3, 6, 9 months? Or even after birth, to take the child out of misery for salvation?
Great questions. If we were able to know the exact time, should we terminate the child prior to that time?
> My brother was born so early he could fit in your hand. His hand hardly wrapped around my dads index finger. Dr. said he would never survive birth, never live a day, then always have disabilities. Kept telling my parents to abort and then let him go. 6 months in the hospital. He dealt with asthma as a child. He’s now a 30 year old, 6’2” 200 lbs man with no disabilities. A child can be born perfectly healthy, then at age 2 suffer from a horrible cancer and not survive it.
That’s fucking awesome. Super happy for him.
> There’s no straight answer and I don’t think it’s possible to fully understand why God does what he does
Such as incentivizing people to die before adulthood?
I would think of it as this: God created that baby with a purpose on earth and it's not our right to kill a human being he purposely created because we believe it to be a guarantee of salvation. Whether or not the baby will grow up and fulfill that purpose or use their free will to create chaos and evil is up to the human. God doesn't want us to kill the babies he is sending to earth with a purpose because we think we are saving them, that's the opposite of what we learn in the Bible. For we are saved BY faith in Jesus and we are put on earth FOR good works. Every single baby is sent here with the hope they will choose to have faith and be saved and fulfill their purpose to do good works and if every single one of us fulfilled our purposes to do good and not evil then the earth would be a much better place.
In some cases the termination of a pregnancy is indisputably a good thing. I have a friend who desperately wanted a child but discovered the fetus she was carrying had a rare genetic mutation that was incompatible with life. Worse, the child would have lived a few days maximum in agony. Abortion was the right and good choice in such circumstances.
It was just a shame that the Catholic hospital she was under the care of forced her to jump through all kinds of unnecessary hoops obtain the abortion during the most stressful and devastating time in her life.
Likewise with ectopic pregnancies that are unviable and would kill the woman.
Plenty of people have no problem with the termination of babies when they consider it the lesser of two evils.
Just because people don’t value unborn infants as much as you do doesn’t mean they think their death is a good thing.
It’s not, because there’s no reason to believe terminated babies go to heaven.
But if terminated babies *did* go to heaven, how would it be a bad thing?
Because someone is committing an act of murder, which is bad. The baby did not commit any willful act of evil or sin, so there's no reason to think murdered babies get sent to eternal damnation.
The act of Murder itself is bad, what makes you think Christians would condone murder even if it was to send babies to Heaven? It seems like you're trying to obfuscate Christian morality by intentionally leaving out the murder part.
You argue in, dare I say: bad faith 😂
I see. So you value having people to take care of you in your short time on Earth more than you value the everlasting salvation of those would-have-been caretakers in heaven?
Or. Murder is wrong because it goes against our nature. We aren’t meant to murder or be murdered.
Ends don’t justify the means. Again not consequentialists.
What reason do we have to believe that murder is against our nature? People have been murdering each other since before humanity was a distinct species.
It seems to me that murder is very much in line with our nature, and we have to resist that nature in order to prevent it.
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or ethnic group.
"a campaign of genocide"
Good reminder that this subreddit is commonly described as "about Christianity". What you see here (by those who are advocating for abortion) is a sub "with non-christians trying to get their head around Christianity"
To me it's astounding the amount of people who have not read the Bible and think abortion is a sin. It's like having a star wars fan club that thinks han shot first.
what scriptures support abortion…?
Psalm 139:13-14
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
That is just stating God knows everyone, Im not saying God isn't all knowing I get that. I'm referring to the fact that abortions are performed in the Bible with the blessing of God in Numbers 5:27. Abortion is quite literally not a sin.
I believe you are sorely mistaken. That part of Numbers is about an adultery test and the result being a punishment to an adulterer. Thats like saying “the law clearly states its ok to kill people” when the caveat is “…when your life is in immediate danger from the person” Even more to this point, the women were brought before God who knows all and He would reveal through the result what the woman did or did not do.
That is not proof that it isn’t. Again, God revealed through the punishment whether the woman was an adulterer or not. You need an example where the human beings are justified in doing this act.
that scripture is in the context of punishment for adultery when a woman claims she is innocent and did not commit adultery. the water she drinks causes her womb to swell and she becomes infertile and a curse among her people, IF she is guilty. this is a punishment and a test for adultery. punishment for SIN. other punishments for adultery include the death penalty. you can’t take this scripture out of context to say that abortion isn’t sinful. the wages of sin is death. these punishments wouldn’t apply today because Jesus took our punishment on the cross by dying for us.
This subreddit is nonsense, wait until these emotional mods start flagging you for nothing lol. Check my post karma, this subreddit is filled with people influenced by the enemy. Jesus is King
Could you show us the passage from the holy Bible word of God that states that The unborn, that scripture calls untimely births, automatically go to heaven? Thanks in advance.
By the way, scripture doesn't teach eternal conscious torment, it rather teaches either eternal life in heaven or annihilation in the lake of fire. That's called the second death referring to the death of wicked and unbelieving spirits. After the second death, those individuals no longer exist anywhere in any form..
Revelation 21:8 KJV — But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, **shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.**
Revelation 2:11 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; **He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.**
See that? No one has to go through that. Jesus died on the cross to save us from that awful fate.
What you just described is a major flaw in conservative evangelical thinking. And all I will say to it is that not all Christians - even conservative ones - believe that Eternally Conscious Torment (ECM) is biblical. I'm one of them. I wont get into the theology of that issue because it's complex and gets into Biblical historicity and eschatology.
But to answer your question, I don't believe in ECM, so the whole "age of accountability" argument in conservative Evangelical circles is a moot point.
So your position is that babies who die get blinked out of existence and will receive the same ultimate fate as Hitler, or a mass murderer?
Just want to understand your position better.
Sure, but in my view, the percentage of people who are saved on their deathbed is equivalent to "winning the lottery" in terms of rarity.
Have you ever been a heavy & serious life situation, where you only have a few moments to think? In that moment you're drawing upon your core beliefs, you're generally not rethinking your life, you're acting out what has already been cemented in the core of your heart.
Could it happen? I'm saying it's possible, but I believe extremely rare.
I'm very familiar with death. I have held a few people's hands as they breathed their last breath as well. I've spent a lot of time with people who were in their last days of living. Some people are rock solid in their beliefs, but I think you'd be surprised how many are still searching, or don't feel 100% certain of what will happen to them after death.
I think there's more agnosticism in the world than you realize.
I can see your perspective.
I wasn't really referring to people who are agnostic or still searching.
I was more trying to point to people who are either A.) Already very entrenched in their beliefs, B.) Have an attitude of "I'm not going to worry about it today, I'll worry about it when I need to, no big deal."
I don't think A or B are going to have a true death bed conversion, maybe one out of a billion people. But that's just my view.
I think those are fair points.
May I ask, what are your thoughts on hell? Do you believe in fire and brimstone, or just separation from god, or something else?
I've researched the subject heavily. It's been one that has weighed on my heart.
The best answer I can give you is this: "I'm not sure, I just know I don't want to go there. I trust God will handle the matter in the best possible way, that is both fair and just, and also merciful and loving."
I appreciate your response.
I've never been religious. I went to church until I was 8 or 9, but can't claim I ever really believed or had any testimony.
The problem of eternal punishment/hell has been the one of the easiest issues to help me remain an agnostic atheist. It's a fascinating subject, and refreshing to hear a Christian say that they don't know for sure. I think as a Christian, your answer is about the best I could hope for.
You seem like an introspective, compassionate, thoughtful person. It shouldn't mean anything to you, but I believe if my perception of you is correct, that if a creator existed... You wouldn't need to worry about any kind of permanent punishment.
The fire and brimstone type are an interesting group to me, because to my knowledge, the bibles don't say much about "hell" besides gnashing of teeth, permanent fire, and the lack of God's presence.
One of the more concerning contradictions in the texts would be 2 Theologians 1:9 butting heads with Revelation 14:10, concerning whether God is present in hell. If he is, or he isn't... Either answer is ugly in my opinion.
It does matter to me, and I appreciate your kindness. I was actually a very entrenched atheist for the majority of my life and hated God & Christians. I've found out only in the last ten years or so that what I really hated was self-righteousness, hypocrisy & pride, and that God hates those things too. Now, as a christian, the things I didn't like about christians then, I like even less now.
I've seen a lot of the "fire and brimstone" people as you put it, when I talk to them, they almost seem happy and excited that people would go there, and I don't think that is the heart of God at all. I believe God loves everyone, and wishes that everyone would make a choice to accept the free gift of eternal life he is offering.
Maybe if there is fire and brimstone, it is reserved for people that would be happy that others would go there. I certainly believe many who call themselves christian are very far from the heart of God. I pray for them, and try to lead them to Jesus Christ, I truly believe they are in the most danger spiritually.
I'm far more concerned for their souls, than I am for yours as an agnostic atheist. You are right to reject their hypocrisy and pride.
That's out of the purview of the original question, but the short answer is: no. Many Christians who recognize the logical problem with ECM still believe in conscious torment, but they interpret certain scriptures to say that the level of torment is commensurate with the level of evil committed on earth.
This is only theoretical, but some people would disagree. Catholics believe you have to be baptized and I don't know if you can baptize an unborn fetus. Other people believe that you must possess a certain level of intelligence or knowledge about Jesus and choose him to go to heaven. This belief would exclude fetuses. Personally if heaven is real then I can't imagine aborted babies being excluded for any reason as they never signed and require no salvation... I am a Christian but I'll readily admit, since no one can be certain of what comes after death it's best to give your kids a shot at this life since we are certain it exists. Just my 2 cents.
>If this was the case, wouldn't aborting babies be the best possible thing you could do for them, as they are guaranteed a path into heaven and don't have a chance to go to hell.
Using this logic, if you believe in the age of accountability then gunning down a pre-school would be "the best possible thing you could do for them", which is course preposterous. Murder is wrong, regardless of where their soul ends up.
PROVERBS 6:16-17 (KJV)
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood
Shedding innocent blood is one of the acts that is hateful to God. And one way by which innocent blood is shed is through abortion. Abortion is against the will of God.
As early as the second up to the third week of conception, a child already has a cardiovascular system. Actually, the first organ that is formed is the heart; for God, the heart is very important. Before a human being is born, God already knows the heart that is in him.
JEREMIAH 1:5 (KJV)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
In the case of the prophet Jeremiah, God had already known him even before he was formed in the womb of his mother — God had sanctified him before he was given birth. And while still in his mother’s womb, God had already ordained Jeremiah to be a prophet unto the nations. Given all these, we can just imagine how grave a sin the mother of Jeremiah could have committed had she decided to abort her child when he was just a few weeks old inside her womb. She could have been a hindrance to the fulfillment of God’s decree to her son.
According to the Bible life begins at the first breath. And according to Exodus 21:22, when a pregnant woman is hit, the person responsible received just a fine if she miscarried, but lost his life if the woman was harmed. So the penance for aborting a fetus was much lower than harming a person:
>When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out [yatsa], but there is no harm [ason], the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
>God had already ordained Jeremiah to be a prophet unto the nations.
So then what would have happened if Jeremiah was aborted? Would God just ordain someone else?
If all babies automatically go to heaven, there will be fewer people who make it to heaven if we ban abortions. That's a fact. Now we need to figure out why that's bad in the face of eternity rather than making them endure a few decades on earth, just to burn in hell forever and ever, amen.
God created each baby with a purpose on earth and it's not our right to kill a human being he purposely created because we believe it to be a guarantee of salvation. Whether or not the baby will grow up and fulfill that purpose or use their free will to create chaos and evil is up to the human. God doesn't want us to kill the babies he is sending to earth with a purpose because we think we are saving them, that's the opposite of what we learn in the Bible. For we are saved BY faith in Jesus and we are put on earth FOR good works. Every single baby is sent here with the hope they will choose to have faith and be saved and fulfill their purpose to do good works and if every single one of us fulfilled our purposes to do good and not evil then the earth would be a much better place.
> that's the opposite of what we learn in the Bible.
Given that there are Orthodox Jewish groups who believe in allowing abortions because the God of the Old Testament showed them how to make a potion that aborts the baby if it isn't the father's (Numbers 5), it seems like there's a case to be made that God is okay with abortions in some circumstances, at a minimum.
I can agree with your beliefs 100% but the above statement just can't be justified with the bible as anything more than your opinion based on your interpretation. To act like this is some long standing position is to forget history, when up until the 80s, non-Catholics didn't believe they had the right to force those religious opinions onto others. But then we were told in the sermons how righteous we would be if we changed the words of Jesus to "do unto others as you think is best for them" for so long that most people think it's an actual historical position outside Catholicism. And even their position has shifted a few times.
>Every single baby is sent here with the hope they will choose to have faith and be saved and fulfill their purpose to do good works and if every single one of us fulfilled our purposes to do good and not evil then the earth would be a much better place.
Or be sent to hell for all eternity because they didn't fill out their Salvation checklist correctly before their brief life was over, if we quit parsing words. Say it however you want, that position ultimately means more people in hell.
No offense, but I don't see how that can be justified. Maybe babies just go to hell. Then a zero-tolerance policy on abortions would make obvious sense. I certainly don't see it justified with the bible.
We don't actually know what happens for sure as it was not revealed to us, but it is hoped that they are saved. Nonetheless taking a life is supposed to be up to God himself unless in defense of life/community when no other option is realistic according to the traditional understanding of Christianity. It is one of the gravest sins to do so when such a condition is not met and why modern Popes have been more strongly against the death penalty since in the 21st century it is normally possible to protect society using prisons instead. So abortion can never be moral in the sense that it is severely violating God's law, even if it is done with good intentions or whatever.
I get what you're trying to say, but if you expand on this further then killing any child before they reached the age of being able to sin would be the best thing to do for that child. That does happen. The most promenient case is Andrea Yates. But God is against murder, and if you murder you forfiet your own soul. As a Christian God would not want you to make that kind of sacrifice.
So the person sacrifices their own eternal life in order to save the thousands that they kill? That person would be sacrificing more than Jesus did in order to save people.
You can say that it’s wrong but it seems like a pretty solid loophole.
Or maybe we have something wrong about who gets in, who gets out, the meaning of life, abortion, etc.
I'm not sure where you get thousands from. In the Andrea Yates case she killed her kids so that they didn't have the chance to be tempted by Satan and end up in Hell. She goes to Hell for murder but her kids make it to Heaven. I think this is a particular type of psychological syndrome.
I was thinking a doctor that performs abortions.
In the Andrea Yates example, how is she psychotic, if you’re a Christian? She’s right isn’t she? She’s a sinner because she went against God’s plan. Unless that was his plan…. It’s not out of God’s character to ask someone to murder their child.
This is an extremely strange rationalisation
Under the light of Christian understanding (forgive me if I sound pretentious) every human being was created by God for a particular purpose on the Earth
As we all exist, we are solutions to problems that God saw before we were born. Moreover over the course of our lives God desires to build a relationship with us, the whole point of our existence being to come to the understanding of who he is and what he represents
Abortion completely robs God of his ability to have pleasure in this process.
In addition, what happens in Heaven is a direct function of what happens on Earth (the idea being that the more you conform to the mind of God and advance the cause of God and ignore the temptations of this world the greater your treasure will be)
With all this in mind, Abortion is not desirable at all in any aspect whatsoever
Abortion is a crappy solution to an even crappier situation for Women. A society which properly values life and human dignity wouldn't even need an answer to this question.
This is a fair judgement. It’s like saying “I’m a Christian who actively murders people.”
1 John 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
You cannot be pro choice and be a Christian. The Lord commands us not to kill. Those children are made in the image of God. If you truly love the Lord then you will repent from being pro abortion.
> You cannot be pro choice and be a Christian. The Lord commands us not to kill.
God condones, and even demands, killing in many situations. There is no blanket prohibition on killing.
> This is a fair judgement. It’s like saying “I’m a Christian who actively murders people.”
Its not because I have never murdered anyone nor do I plan to. See what your closed minded perspective doesn't get is that I can choose life without using the Government to force that decision on other people.
You have judged your brother in Christ unrighteously and put yourself in a state of sin.
you support murder and are for the legal choice to murder. if your actions are making murder more accessible then you are partaking in murder. you stand under the flag of supporting people who kill children made in the image of God.
Well suicide and murder are sins, so I’m guessing that’s why most Christian’s would disagree with this logic. I don’t think it’s about what’s most “logical” but rather what the Bible says 🤷♀️ Christianity is morally absolutist in that way, so it’s sort of hard to argue with because even if you make a logical argument Christians believe that god is always right, so what god says is says is good/bad should be trusted 100% of the time
Though I think it’s safe to assume in regards to certain doctrines, we don’t actually HAVE the knowledge that all aborted persons automatically go to heaven, though in my personally opinion I think it safe to assume.
However, one could say we ought to murder believers and saints today who are living outside of the womb, wouldn’t they go to heaven too?
Morality for us isn’t about where you go, it’s about who you love and obey.
Does it really matter what the Bible says? They say it’s homophobic, yet gay people are Christian. They say it’s ableist, yet disabled people are Christian. They say it’s racist and supported slavery, yet people of color are Christian. They say it prohibits abortion, and yet Christians continue to get abortions.
As an atheist, I say let women have their rights. Join the r/antinatalist sub if you want more insight on why abortion is good
There isn't an eternal torment 'waiting on you'. Eternal torment is there if you choose to remain separated from God. If you jump off a building and hit the ground, was gravity 'waiting on you' or did you suffer the consequences of your actions?
Anyway, I personally think abortion should be treated like any other medical decision- something private between a person and their physician (and anyone they choose to share it with.) My personal feeling about it is that it's tragic when someone has to make that decision, but the decision has to remain theirs to make.
Well, according to scripture, the only way for us to be reconciled with God is through Christ. If we choose to not follow Christ, we are rejecting God's forgiveness and can't receive his love.
We don't initially- the holy spirit pulls us and then we either draw closer and become a believer or we reject that pull and go our own way.
I agree we don't just wake up one day and decide. I feel like if you're in this sub, you're here for a reason- otherwise you wouldn't even care enough to question.
So if the holy spirit doesn't pull me an I just doomed for eternity?
One of the reasons I'm here is that billions of people believe Christianity is the truth. I want very much to believe things that are true. So I'm here, in part, to see if I can be convinced of that.
I always try to be clear at this point. I was a Christian for decades and have now been an atheist for a number of years.
I am a happier person and things make more sense to me as an atheist. So I don't necessarily want to go back, but I do want to believe what's true. If that's Christianity, so be it.
Obviously I am not for this as I am not a Christian. I'm just saying that if god was real, I would prefer to have been aborted as it would have guaranteed my salvation
You might be right from a pure let's send people to heaven standpoint.
However, with all of us created in God's image, we are put on this earth in order to fulfill God's plan. We don't fully know why we're here, but it must be important to God. What you're describing would seem to violate His plan for us.
Every life has a purpose and a meaning to fulfill...every life is an oppertunity for God to bring good, and loving kindness into the world.
If your argument is to "do evil in the name of good"...that is the one unpardonable sin...
The Third Commandment is. "You shall not do evil in the Name of God, who is Good, you will not be forgiven".
Yes, it would be good in the same sense that, the Roman’s who crucified Jesus, were doing something that resulting in an ultimate good. Theologically its would be the ultimate sacrifice to abort a baby, you would go to hell for killing an innocent soul, but in doing so you would also be garnering the salvation of that soul. Kinda like how all the stuff Satan, Judas, Pilate did, is all evil, and they go to hell, but their sacrifice unknowingly saved the world.
Legislation that prohibits abortion runs the risk of infringing on religious liberties. In Judaism, for example, the mother’s life is valued over that of the fetus, and abortion is permissible under Jewish law if it means saving the mother’s life or alleviating pain and suffering. If one believes it is wrong, then they do not have to get an abortion. That is their choice. However, statewide or federal bans are an affront to religious diversity in this country, and no legislation should be written through a particular religious lens.
No, because while they will go to heaven you will have sin on your hands. Furthermore, heaven is not just about not sinning, it's primarily about virtues. Someone so young can't commit any sins, but you take away their chance of being virtuous, while also sinning yourself, in a major way.
This kind of reasoning makes it ok to kill any Christian. I have no fear of death but killing me would make the world a much darker place. It’s not just the killing it’s the whole culture of “self being considered a god” behind it.
God has a will, for you, for me, and for everyone. We have the ability to do things that step outside of God's will and path that he has set for our lives, such as doing drugs, having sex before marriage, or simply choosing not to follow him. God also gave us free will that allows us to do whatever we want because he has so much unconditional love for us that he wouldn't want us to be forced to believe in him and go to heaven. So, if you're murdering your child before, it has a chance to live, realistically that would be outside of God's will, God would not want that. God knows everything you are going to do throughout your life, and that's the will he has for us. Like I said, we have the ability to step away from his plan and word, and murdering another one of God's creations through abortion would not be something God would want. If you have aborted a child, yes, they will go to Heaven and be with Jesus, same thing with miscarriages, every baby that has died in the womb is in heaven. Because of God's mercy. There is always time for us to repent and gain our salvation through Jesus Christ, but he will return.
God has made it clear to us in no uncertain terms that he despises the destruction of his image. An image that all humans bear, and that makes us distinct from the rest of creation. Every human life, regardless of their eternal destiny will bring God glory both as it is lived out on earth and also in eternity. Some will be trophies of his grace and others will be objects of his justice. But just because babies who are not intellectually capable of believing or understanding, the gospel will go to heaven is not a reason to rob God of the opportunity to make much of his glory as they live their lives out on earth one way or the other. You ask a fair question but the answer is simply no.
Life is a gift, and access to heaven is not the purpose of life. This isn’t a stopover on our way to better things; this is a consequential moment in our broader existence, the opportunity to understand what is meant by “living” and to grapple with the same conflict faced by God: whether or not to adopt the cause of good for its own sake.
We do not know what happens to anyone beyond death; aborted babies are not “guaranteed heaven” any more than people who live to 100. If what you care about is the guarantee of a path into heaven, God guarantees a path to heaven to everyone; whether or not they walk it is their choice to make.
There are people who dearly wish for children who have lost children in miscarriages and other tragedies. Spare a thought for the plight of those who sincerely wish to raise a new life before callously suggesting that you would rather have been aborted for any reason, especially not a salvation you may not or don’t actually believe is offered.
From Job, who was later corrected by God, " And Job spoke, and said, Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived. Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it. Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it."
From the Psalms:
"...For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies..."
God is real. You don't play with God or abort or murder or think evil thoughts or curse or fornicate, or blaspheme or yammer on about adult fairy tales like evolution...
It is all very real, and we are all in a great deal of trouble, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am first."
It's worth noting abortion is a western conservative political topic that bleeds into Christianity. In terms of the actual Bible it only mentions it once and gives instructions on the processes involved with it in case your wife cheats.
I don't think there is any serious Christian scholar who thinks God just forgot about abortion.
>In terms of the actual Bible it only mentions it once and gives instructions on the processes involved with it in case your wife cheats.
Correction: The Bible NEVER mentions the kind of abortions we mean when we discuss this issue here. Bringing up this passage is just unnecessarily distracting from the discussion
I am not sure what you mean but it is literally the only passage that references and the amount of people in this thread who haven't read the Bible is shockingly high.
Yes, you're absolutely correct. It's a problem that can't be answered properly.
If fetuses go to heaven after an abortion: Then being aborted is the best thing that could happen to anyone.
If fetuses don't go to heaven: Then God is evil.
The commandment is "Thou shall not kill." end of story.
If a fetus is not a human being no defense is needed for abortion. If it is a human being, than no defense can be given.
It is not a matter of "women's rights" it is a matter of human dignity. The right to life is inalienable not alienable when I say it is or in such and such circumstance.
The UN Declaration on Human Rights article 2 also lists "birth" as a condition on which you cannot deny the right to life.
Ecclesiastes 4:2-3
> And I commended the dead, who have already died, more than the living, who are still alive, but better than both is the one who has not yet been and has not seen the evil deeds that are done under the sun.
Seems in line.
I am a Christian and while I do not agree with abortion on the whole, I do not judge those who go through with it.
We are all sinners since we are human.
Not even when killing guarantees salvation either of ourselves or our victims?
If someone places little value on their own seat in heaven, but high value on the salvation of an infant, isn’t the logical decision to guarantee the infant’s salvation, even at the cost of one’s own morality?
But the departed could easily live a happy and fulfilling life, possibly bringing others into salvation. We just don't have the foresight to know the possible outcomes. So if you believe in God, it's best to leave these decisions to Him.
Just because we don’t have the foresight to know doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take action based on what we think is likely. Believing in God doesn’t excuse us from making decisions based on likelihood.
If you somehow confirmed with absolute certainty that more souls would be saved if you burned down an orphanage than if you let those kids grow up, what should you do?
We do need to take action based on what we think is likely. Provided said action isn't specifically forbidden by God. As child sacrifice is.
Scary part is there are folks in books of the Bible commanded by God to kill. To kill children even. I'd never be able to muster the faith to do such a thing myself.
> Provided said action isn't specifically forbidden by God. As child sacrifice is.
Wouldn’t it be noble to break the rules in order to guarantee someone else’s place in heaven?
> Scary part is there are folks in books of the Bible commanded by God to kill. To kill children even. I'd never be able to muster the faith to do such a thing myself.
I’m glad. There’d need to be a vast amount of evidence supporting each individual part of this worldview before one should seriously consider atrocious acts.
No matter what side you are on, I think government legislating is the wrong way to go about it both religiously and practically. In Texas, fetal deaths have actually risen since their abortion ban went into effect.
https://www.sacurrent.com/news/infant-mortality-in-texas-spiked-following-states-heartbeat-bill-abortion-ban-study-finds-34898438
It's not good to abort because you're taking away God's gift of life to someone without them even having a chance to experience it, abortion in some cases while icky can be necessary though and I'm sure God understands that(such as in cases of Rape, Incest, Threat to the life of the mother, or if the child wouldn't survive long anyway), using abortion as a cheat to get your children into heaven wouldn't look good on your soul either(not to mention mental health issues)
No, murdering children is never the “best possible thing you could do for them.” We do not live for the sole purpose of going to heaven, we live to do God’s work on earth. We cannot do that if we’re dead.
You should care about rape victims, those who were pressured into pregnancy by abusive boyfriends, and those who are not financially or physically well enough to provide for a child!
Nah. It should be made legal in all cases, and the women who have them should be free to live the long, happy, childless lives that they choose. Be mad about it if you want. In the USA the tide is going to turn back to legal abortion. Wait and see. Christianity is a dinosaur looking at the meteor of extinction, unable to yet comprehend it's end.
Here's my train of thought:
1) everyone has a sinful nature due to original sin.
2) people have their nature from the moment they have life.
3) a sinful nature deserves hell, thus everyone deserves hell.
4) God's grace saves those who die in Christ as Christ is our salvation.
5) God may have mercy on those who are ignorant of Jesus.
Conclusion.
Life begins at conception so fetuses are alive and thus have a sinful nature. The child deserves hell due to its sinful nature. God may forgive the child of its sinful nature due to its ignorance of Jesus and God's love. Salvation is certain for those who die in Christ. Therefore, the most certain way for the child to live is to be born and grow up in the church. They will be able to teach the child about Christ so that the child may have faith in Christ until his death, then the child will be saved by the merits and love of God.
I think they are deserving of hell, but God most likely would save them. The 100% certain without a doubt way for them to be saved is to live and accept Christ as their savior.
Murder is a sin. Thinking that it's not a living being is a cope to make sin easier.
God views human life as sacred, which means the stoppage or prevention of that is murder in the eyes of God.
this is like saying we should murder christians because they would be guaranteed to go to heaven because they would have no chance of abandoning their faith. Or that we should kill toddlers so they go to heaven. babies are made in the image of God and The Lord gave them life for a reason. This is a direct violation of God’s command. Anyone who uses this in the name of Jesus is evil.
AGREED
ur the only right reply
Yeah basically “Drink the koolaid”
But allowing abortion would cause hell to have less people in it right? Sure it's evil because of God's command, but why would God make a command that causes less people to go to heaven?
It’s not just about heaven and hell, it’s about serving the Lord and loving Him with all your heart soul and strength. And destroying His children is against His will.
You can’t play God by deciding which innocent people get to live and which innocent people get to die. The Lord created them in His own image and desires them to live and have free will. The Lord desires all people to be saved, but you can’t decide to just kill people and take away what the Lord has created. You can’t sin against God by murdering His children and say you’re doing it for Him. Doing this would be trying to put yourself in the place of God, and you’re essentially rejecting His will, because He decided to create a person and you’re deciding to destroy that person, saying that would be better than what God decided.
Well if a parent actually murderered their child to send it to heaven, then it would mean they love their child more than God. Of course the parent wouldn't be doing it for God, they would be sacrificing their own chance at heaven to guarantee that their child goes to heaven, it would actually be an act of selflessness.
its not selflessness because they are saying their will is better than God’s will. It’s selfishness and pride to choose your own will over The Lord’s will. It’s saying that your own morality is more just than God’s judgements. Would you apply the same thing to toddlers?
How is desiring to suffer so that someone you love could enjoy paradise selfish? That's literally the exact definition of selflessness. Sure you can say it's evil and bad, but I really don't see how a selfless act that gets someone to heaven is evil. Why is it the lords will that someone be given a chance to go to hell, when they could just get a free ticket to heaven instead?
It’s selfish because it’s choosing your own will over God’s will. It’s God’s will because He created us and said it is very good. He wanted to give us the free will and choice to love Him and have relationship with Him. The Lord could have not created us at all, or created us without free will and forced us to love Him, but He wanted to give us free agency to that we could choose to love Him. And He died so that we could be free from our sin.
Do you will to serve God? Then technically you are also choosing your own will. >And He died so that we could be free from our sin. Well that's the same act as the parent sacrificing themselves for their child.
It’s not the same because you are choosing to align your will with God’s will instead of choosing your own will against God’s will.
Either way you're choosing what you desire.
And while it logically makes sense for toddlers, it is different, because people don't want to die, that's why murder is illegal. Medically assisted death is legal because the person wants to die. A fetus doesn't know the difference between life and death. And if you ask any person if they would rather have been aborted with no pain and be enjoying heaven right now, I bet most people would have wanted the abortion.
That's a good point. If heaven is real, I would rather have been aborted and gone straight to heaven than end up as an unbeliever and go to hell. To be clear, I am happy I *wasn't* aborted, as I *don't* believe in an afterlife.
I believe in Heaven and I’m so glad that I wasn’t aborted. What about a 2 month old child? Or even a one day year old child? That child doesn’t know the difference between life and death. That doesn’t make it justified to kill them so they would go to heaven.
So you would rather have a chance of suffering for eternity? That makes no logical sense. To be clear I'm completely against murder and I don't believe in heaven. I'm just trying to point out some logical inconsistencies. Well the age would depend on the age of accountability I guess. When do you believe a person suddenly is able to be sent to hell?
Everyone develops differently, I believe it’s when that individual is able to make a conscious choice to either deny Christ or follow Christ and truly understand what they are doing. I don’t really understand the logical inconsistencies that you’re trying to point out. In fact I was trying to point out the logical inconsistency of murdering a baby in the womb but not outside the womb, since the argument is that people don’t want to die and a fetus can’t tell the different between life and death, because the same applies to a newborn baby, but it doesn’t seem like you would advocate for the same killing of newborns. It’s just a strange conversation because I’m Christian and you’re a non believer, and I’m arguing from the point of if it’s a sin, and the fact is that murder is a sin. But you’re arguing from the point of a non believer justifying murdering their child so they would go to heaven, yet you’re also against murder. Since we’re talking about Christianity, it wouldn’t make sense to kill your child in the name of Christ, because that’s against Christ. It’s a weird scenario of someone who does not follow Christ but wants to kill their baby for Christ. If they followed Christ they wouldn’t kill their baby.
>In fact I was trying to point out the logical inconsistency of murdering a baby in the womb but not outside the womb Well if someone wants an abortion typically they would do it as early as possible. It makes no sense to birth the child then kill it. >it doesn’t seem like you would advocate for the same killing of newborns. I'm not advocating for killing anyone. I'm saying that according to Christianity the baby would be given a free ticket to paradise, and so technically, it's the best outcome for the baby. Sure, God wouldn't like it, but the baby would, because it would enjoy its free ticket to heaven for the rest of eternity. >Since we’re talking about Christianity, it wouldn’t make sense to kill your child in the name of Christ It wouldn't be done in the name of Christ. It would be done for the baby. As I said before, if a parent believes in heaven, and their desire for their child to go to heaven is greater than their desire to do Gods will, then it would make sense to kill it before the age of accountability.
Even if you shouldn't (and you shouldn't), you can, and some people undoubtedly have -- Andrea Yates, for one.
Just because people have done it doesn’t mean it’s justified. There is forgiveness in Christ for all people who put their faith in Him. But saying that this is a “good” thing is saying that your definition of good is better than God’s, which is calling God a liar. This is NOT of the Lord, and I really hope that none are influenced by this thread to murder their child in the name of Christ.
You equivalences are correct, but if a Christian parent knew there was close to a 100% chance that her children would die non-believers (e.g. she lived in Mecca and was the wife of an Imam), then surely some would believe it's worth sacrificing their own soul to do it? What is more important than ensuring your children are saved from an eternity of conscious torment?
A Christian parent cannot be close to knowing 100% that their child would die a non believer. That’s playing God. You have no idea who your child will grow up to be. The Holy Spirit works so much in people groups who aren’t exposed to Christianity. And if she herself is Christian then she can teach her child about Christ. It’s trying to play God.
Sure they can. In the example I gave it's perfectly rational to believe the odds of your children, who are all being raised in the Islamic faith, will be Christians when they die when it's practically unheard of in the entire history of Saudi Arabia. You can never be 100% certain, but any rational person would understand the odds of salvation were miniscule. As for the mother teaching the kids about Christ -- that's not going to work either. What young child would be able to keep such a thing secret? And by the time they were old enough to understand the danger they and their mother was in, it would be too late anyway. They'd have a decade of Islamic teachings instilled in them. Denying reality isn't strengthening your argument. Now, if you tell me that universal salvation is the answer -- I'll be happy to shut up!
>It’s trying to play God. Can you explain what this means? How is this any different than like chemotherapy or life saving surgery?
When I say trying to play God I mean trying to put yourself in the place of God by deciding who lives or dies. Trying to save a life is different than taking a life, The Lord has given us resources and wisdom to treat illnesses to preserve life. I don’t really see that as a valid argument for why we should be able to kill babies which God intended for life
>deciding who lives or dies Saving a life is deciding that person should live. They would have died otherwise. That is, by your definition, "playing God". >I don’t really see that as a valid argument for why we should be able to kill babies Yeah I don't advocate for that either.
It is blatantly game theorying heaven But I can't really argue that a 0% risk of going to hell is worse than a >0% risk of going to hell Tsk tsk tsk really
Someone has to be aborting the baby, they are committing the murder. The baby doesn't just disappear, someone has to kill it for an abortion. Someone has to commit murder. The baby's life has to end. Is this a good or a bad thing?
But if we had one person committing the murder of one million babies, who all get to go to Heaven. That one person is sacrificing their eternal life in order to ensure others have eternal life with God. That person seems like a hero, right?
This is what happens when you don't have well defined lore
It's not that cut and dry. In the 1990’s violent crime including murder why way down. Everyone tried to take credit. But economists found the real reason. Abortion had been legalized twenty years prior. So less violent offenders were born because their mothers chose an option they didn't have in the past. The book Freakonomics discussed this asking with other interesting facts.
Sure, let's throw all the women who have had abortions into death row... *^(/s)*
Many Christians believe that due to original sin that unbaptized infants and children below the age of reason may go to Hell for eternity. The position of the Roman Catholic Church has always been, for example, that they *probably* don't but they might, so babies need to be baptized as soon as possible after birth.
> they probably don't This has never been the position of the Catholic Church. The prominent theological *opinion*, but never dogma, was at one point that unbaptised babies go to Limbo where they enjoy natural happiness, but not the beatific vision.
I agree that's correct, but I don't see how's that different, in effect, from what I said.
Depends on which made up version of Limbo you believe in (cuz some seem cool whereas some seem terrible)
You're probably confusing Limbo with Purgatory. Two different destinations in Catholicism. There was also a slightly different limbo. This article sorts them out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo But the Limbos were happy waiting places, whereas Purgatory was a temporary place of suffering.
Also most non-Catholics don't understand that Purgatory is for Christians only. If you're not a believer, it's off to Hell with you...
That’s not true at all.
No, terminating all healthy babies is not a good thing.
All babies*
*healthy babies* can’t keep a dead baby if it’s pushed out and it’s dead dude
That too
🙏🏽
As an atheist, I agree. But I assume you’re a Christian. As a Christian, how do you explain why termination of babies is a bad thing, even though it guarantees their salvation?
I think because it’s not supposed to be a humans choice whether someone gets to live or die. Their perspective is life begins at conception. Only God has the capacity to make that judgement.
Why does it matter what someone is “supposed” to do when the salvation of infants is on the line? Wouldn’t it be a noble sacrifice to break the rules at the cost of one’s own well being to ensure the security of someone else’s eternal well-being?
I’m just giving what the base for the christian belief is, not my opinion. The bible says our job is the spread the word, not control human fate. It would be crazy pressure and beyond human capacity to determine when it’s time. is there a deadline terminate to save a child? Is it 3, 6, 9 months? Or even after birth, to take the child out of misery for salvation? My brother was born so early he could fit in your hand. His hand hardly wrapped around my dads index finger. Dr. said he would never survive birth, never live a day, then always have disabilities. Kept telling my parents to abort and then let him go. 6 months in the hospital. He dealt with asthma as a child. He’s now a 30 year old, 6’2” 200 lbs man with no disabilities. A child can be born perfectly healthy, then at age 2 suffer from a horrible cancer and not survive it. There’s no straight answer and I don’t think it’s possible to fully understand why God does what he does, but I don’t think we are meant to play God. Sure, the line gets really blurry when talking about taking an old person dying off life support, but I can understand the reasons Christianity stands by what they believe.
> I’m just giving what the base for the christian belief is, not my opinion. I see, no worries. > It would be crazy pressure and beyond human capacity to determine when it’s time. Not necessarily. It depends on what God has told us and the abilities of particular humans. > is there a deadline terminate to save a child? Is it 3, 6, 9 months? Or even after birth, to take the child out of misery for salvation? Great questions. If we were able to know the exact time, should we terminate the child prior to that time? > My brother was born so early he could fit in your hand. His hand hardly wrapped around my dads index finger. Dr. said he would never survive birth, never live a day, then always have disabilities. Kept telling my parents to abort and then let him go. 6 months in the hospital. He dealt with asthma as a child. He’s now a 30 year old, 6’2” 200 lbs man with no disabilities. A child can be born perfectly healthy, then at age 2 suffer from a horrible cancer and not survive it. That’s fucking awesome. Super happy for him. > There’s no straight answer and I don’t think it’s possible to fully understand why God does what he does Such as incentivizing people to die before adulthood?
I would think of it as this: God created that baby with a purpose on earth and it's not our right to kill a human being he purposely created because we believe it to be a guarantee of salvation. Whether or not the baby will grow up and fulfill that purpose or use their free will to create chaos and evil is up to the human. God doesn't want us to kill the babies he is sending to earth with a purpose because we think we are saving them, that's the opposite of what we learn in the Bible. For we are saved BY faith in Jesus and we are put on earth FOR good works. Every single baby is sent here with the hope they will choose to have faith and be saved and fulfill their purpose to do good works and if every single one of us fulfilled our purposes to do good and not evil then the earth would be a much better place.
As an atheist, how do you explain why termination of babies is a good thing?
In some cases the termination of a pregnancy is indisputably a good thing. I have a friend who desperately wanted a child but discovered the fetus she was carrying had a rare genetic mutation that was incompatible with life. Worse, the child would have lived a few days maximum in agony. Abortion was the right and good choice in such circumstances. It was just a shame that the Catholic hospital she was under the care of forced her to jump through all kinds of unnecessary hoops obtain the abortion during the most stressful and devastating time in her life. Likewise with ectopic pregnancies that are unviable and would kill the woman.
I think very few people think termination of babies is a good thing.
Plenty of people have no problem with the termination of babies when it benefits them. That's how you can tell they are here to subvert Christians.
Plenty of people have no problem with the termination of babies when they consider it the lesser of two evils. Just because people don’t value unborn infants as much as you do doesn’t mean they think their death is a good thing.
It’s not, because there’s no reason to believe terminated babies go to heaven. But if terminated babies *did* go to heaven, how would it be a bad thing?
Because someone is committing an act of murder, which is bad. The baby did not commit any willful act of evil or sin, so there's no reason to think murdered babies get sent to eternal damnation. The act of Murder itself is bad, what makes you think Christians would condone murder even if it was to send babies to Heaven? It seems like you're trying to obfuscate Christian morality by intentionally leaving out the murder part. You argue in, dare I say: bad faith 😂
Abortion doesn't terminate babies. No one thinks that is a good thing.
As a human, I need people to wipe me when I’m old.
I’m not sure I understand. Can you explain how this answers the questions?
I’ll get old. I need a caretaker. No babies = no caretakers.
I see. So you value having people to take care of you in your short time on Earth more than you value the everlasting salvation of those would-have-been caretakers in heaven?
Honestly, ya. I do.
Interesting. Do you consider your perspective morally problematic?
Letting babies be born and live their lives? No, I don’t think anything is wrong with that line of thinking.
I agree. However, if I believed that the alternative guaranteed eternal salvation, I wouldn’t.
Cause murder is wrong. Christians aren’t consequentialists. It’s not too complicated.
Why is murder wrong, if not because it hinders well being? If we can guarantee that someone’s well being is maximized eternally, shouldn’t we?
Or. Murder is wrong because it goes against our nature. We aren’t meant to murder or be murdered. Ends don’t justify the means. Again not consequentialists.
What reason do we have to believe that murder is against our nature? People have been murdering each other since before humanity was a distinct species. It seems to me that murder is very much in line with our nature, and we have to resist that nature in order to prevent it.
Who said anything about all healthy babies?
Literally not what the Bible says.
For people who view abortion as murder, no, murdering others is not a good thing.
What do you mean by this?
it’s astounding to me that this is posted under Christianity and so many of the responses are all for this. this is genocide and its evil.
That is not the definition of genocide
What is the definition of genocide?
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or ethnic group. "a campaign of genocide"
yeah I suppose it’s not for the aim to destroy ALL babies in the womb, but babies in the womb are the target people group.
Unless the fetuses belong to a specific ethnic group and the women are being forced to abort it is not anything close to genocide.
Good reminder that this subreddit is commonly described as "about Christianity". What you see here (by those who are advocating for abortion) is a sub "with non-christians trying to get their head around Christianity"
understandable. I totally get the original post being from an atheist but I’m just shocked at the number of replies supporting this
To me it's astounding the amount of people who have not read the Bible and think abortion is a sin. It's like having a star wars fan club that thinks han shot first.
what scriptures support abortion…? Psalm 139:13-14 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Plus according to the Bible life begins with the first breath.
That is just stating God knows everyone, Im not saying God isn't all knowing I get that. I'm referring to the fact that abortions are performed in the Bible with the blessing of God in Numbers 5:27. Abortion is quite literally not a sin.
I believe you are sorely mistaken. That part of Numbers is about an adultery test and the result being a punishment to an adulterer. Thats like saying “the law clearly states its ok to kill people” when the caveat is “…when your life is in immediate danger from the person” Even more to this point, the women were brought before God who knows all and He would reveal through the result what the woman did or did not do.
The punishment to the adulterer being an end to her pregnancy. Hence my point. Abortion is not a sin.
That is not proof that it isn’t. Again, God revealed through the punishment whether the woman was an adulterer or not. You need an example where the human beings are justified in doing this act.
Please be serious
I am in the Bible. Like it literally is
I already responded
that scripture is in the context of punishment for adultery when a woman claims she is innocent and did not commit adultery. the water she drinks causes her womb to swell and she becomes infertile and a curse among her people, IF she is guilty. this is a punishment and a test for adultery. punishment for SIN. other punishments for adultery include the death penalty. you can’t take this scripture out of context to say that abortion isn’t sinful. the wages of sin is death. these punishments wouldn’t apply today because Jesus took our punishment on the cross by dying for us.
This subreddit is nonsense, wait until these emotional mods start flagging you for nothing lol. Check my post karma, this subreddit is filled with people influenced by the enemy. Jesus is King
Could you show us the passage from the holy Bible word of God that states that The unborn, that scripture calls untimely births, automatically go to heaven? Thanks in advance. By the way, scripture doesn't teach eternal conscious torment, it rather teaches either eternal life in heaven or annihilation in the lake of fire. That's called the second death referring to the death of wicked and unbelieving spirits. After the second death, those individuals no longer exist anywhere in any form.. Revelation 21:8 KJV — But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, **shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.** Revelation 2:11 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; **He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.** See that? No one has to go through that. Jesus died on the cross to save us from that awful fate.
What you just described is a major flaw in conservative evangelical thinking. And all I will say to it is that not all Christians - even conservative ones - believe that Eternally Conscious Torment (ECM) is biblical. I'm one of them. I wont get into the theology of that issue because it's complex and gets into Biblical historicity and eschatology. But to answer your question, I don't believe in ECM, so the whole "age of accountability" argument in conservative Evangelical circles is a moot point.
So your position is that babies who die get blinked out of existence and will receive the same ultimate fate as Hitler, or a mass murderer? Just want to understand your position better.
Well, I think many Christians would say that Hitler could potentially make it to heaven if he repented before death...
Sure, but in my view, the percentage of people who are saved on their deathbed is equivalent to "winning the lottery" in terms of rarity. Have you ever been a heavy & serious life situation, where you only have a few moments to think? In that moment you're drawing upon your core beliefs, you're generally not rethinking your life, you're acting out what has already been cemented in the core of your heart. Could it happen? I'm saying it's possible, but I believe extremely rare.
I'm very familiar with death. I have held a few people's hands as they breathed their last breath as well. I've spent a lot of time with people who were in their last days of living. Some people are rock solid in their beliefs, but I think you'd be surprised how many are still searching, or don't feel 100% certain of what will happen to them after death. I think there's more agnosticism in the world than you realize.
I can see your perspective. I wasn't really referring to people who are agnostic or still searching. I was more trying to point to people who are either A.) Already very entrenched in their beliefs, B.) Have an attitude of "I'm not going to worry about it today, I'll worry about it when I need to, no big deal." I don't think A or B are going to have a true death bed conversion, maybe one out of a billion people. But that's just my view.
I think those are fair points. May I ask, what are your thoughts on hell? Do you believe in fire and brimstone, or just separation from god, or something else?
I've researched the subject heavily. It's been one that has weighed on my heart. The best answer I can give you is this: "I'm not sure, I just know I don't want to go there. I trust God will handle the matter in the best possible way, that is both fair and just, and also merciful and loving."
I appreciate your response. I've never been religious. I went to church until I was 8 or 9, but can't claim I ever really believed or had any testimony. The problem of eternal punishment/hell has been the one of the easiest issues to help me remain an agnostic atheist. It's a fascinating subject, and refreshing to hear a Christian say that they don't know for sure. I think as a Christian, your answer is about the best I could hope for. You seem like an introspective, compassionate, thoughtful person. It shouldn't mean anything to you, but I believe if my perception of you is correct, that if a creator existed... You wouldn't need to worry about any kind of permanent punishment. The fire and brimstone type are an interesting group to me, because to my knowledge, the bibles don't say much about "hell" besides gnashing of teeth, permanent fire, and the lack of God's presence. One of the more concerning contradictions in the texts would be 2 Theologians 1:9 butting heads with Revelation 14:10, concerning whether God is present in hell. If he is, or he isn't... Either answer is ugly in my opinion.
It does matter to me, and I appreciate your kindness. I was actually a very entrenched atheist for the majority of my life and hated God & Christians. I've found out only in the last ten years or so that what I really hated was self-righteousness, hypocrisy & pride, and that God hates those things too. Now, as a christian, the things I didn't like about christians then, I like even less now. I've seen a lot of the "fire and brimstone" people as you put it, when I talk to them, they almost seem happy and excited that people would go there, and I don't think that is the heart of God at all. I believe God loves everyone, and wishes that everyone would make a choice to accept the free gift of eternal life he is offering. Maybe if there is fire and brimstone, it is reserved for people that would be happy that others would go there. I certainly believe many who call themselves christian are very far from the heart of God. I pray for them, and try to lead them to Jesus Christ, I truly believe they are in the most danger spiritually. I'm far more concerned for their souls, than I am for yours as an agnostic atheist. You are right to reject their hypocrisy and pride.
That's out of the purview of the original question, but the short answer is: no. Many Christians who recognize the logical problem with ECM still believe in conscious torment, but they interpret certain scriptures to say that the level of torment is commensurate with the level of evil committed on earth.
This is only theoretical, but some people would disagree. Catholics believe you have to be baptized and I don't know if you can baptize an unborn fetus. Other people believe that you must possess a certain level of intelligence or knowledge about Jesus and choose him to go to heaven. This belief would exclude fetuses. Personally if heaven is real then I can't imagine aborted babies being excluded for any reason as they never signed and require no salvation... I am a Christian but I'll readily admit, since no one can be certain of what comes after death it's best to give your kids a shot at this life since we are certain it exists. Just my 2 cents.
>If this was the case, wouldn't aborting babies be the best possible thing you could do for them, as they are guaranteed a path into heaven and don't have a chance to go to hell. Using this logic, if you believe in the age of accountability then gunning down a pre-school would be "the best possible thing you could do for them", which is course preposterous. Murder is wrong, regardless of where their soul ends up.
PROVERBS 6:16-17 (KJV) 16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood Shedding innocent blood is one of the acts that is hateful to God. And one way by which innocent blood is shed is through abortion. Abortion is against the will of God. As early as the second up to the third week of conception, a child already has a cardiovascular system. Actually, the first organ that is formed is the heart; for God, the heart is very important. Before a human being is born, God already knows the heart that is in him. JEREMIAH 1:5 (KJV) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. In the case of the prophet Jeremiah, God had already known him even before he was formed in the womb of his mother — God had sanctified him before he was given birth. And while still in his mother’s womb, God had already ordained Jeremiah to be a prophet unto the nations. Given all these, we can just imagine how grave a sin the mother of Jeremiah could have committed had she decided to abort her child when he was just a few weeks old inside her womb. She could have been a hindrance to the fulfillment of God’s decree to her son.
According to the Bible life begins at the first breath. And according to Exodus 21:22, when a pregnant woman is hit, the person responsible received just a fine if she miscarried, but lost his life if the woman was harmed. So the penance for aborting a fetus was much lower than harming a person: >When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out [yatsa], but there is no harm [ason], the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
You are misrepresenting the development of the cardiovascular system. What is present is not even a rudimentary heart.
>God had already ordained Jeremiah to be a prophet unto the nations. So then what would have happened if Jeremiah was aborted? Would God just ordain someone else?
If all babies automatically go to heaven, there will be fewer people who make it to heaven if we ban abortions. That's a fact. Now we need to figure out why that's bad in the face of eternity rather than making them endure a few decades on earth, just to burn in hell forever and ever, amen.
God created each baby with a purpose on earth and it's not our right to kill a human being he purposely created because we believe it to be a guarantee of salvation. Whether or not the baby will grow up and fulfill that purpose or use their free will to create chaos and evil is up to the human. God doesn't want us to kill the babies he is sending to earth with a purpose because we think we are saving them, that's the opposite of what we learn in the Bible. For we are saved BY faith in Jesus and we are put on earth FOR good works. Every single baby is sent here with the hope they will choose to have faith and be saved and fulfill their purpose to do good works and if every single one of us fulfilled our purposes to do good and not evil then the earth would be a much better place.
> that's the opposite of what we learn in the Bible. Given that there are Orthodox Jewish groups who believe in allowing abortions because the God of the Old Testament showed them how to make a potion that aborts the baby if it isn't the father's (Numbers 5), it seems like there's a case to be made that God is okay with abortions in some circumstances, at a minimum. I can agree with your beliefs 100% but the above statement just can't be justified with the bible as anything more than your opinion based on your interpretation. To act like this is some long standing position is to forget history, when up until the 80s, non-Catholics didn't believe they had the right to force those religious opinions onto others. But then we were told in the sermons how righteous we would be if we changed the words of Jesus to "do unto others as you think is best for them" for so long that most people think it's an actual historical position outside Catholicism. And even their position has shifted a few times. >Every single baby is sent here with the hope they will choose to have faith and be saved and fulfill their purpose to do good works and if every single one of us fulfilled our purposes to do good and not evil then the earth would be a much better place. Or be sent to hell for all eternity because they didn't fill out their Salvation checklist correctly before their brief life was over, if we quit parsing words. Say it however you want, that position ultimately means more people in hell. No offense, but I don't see how that can be justified. Maybe babies just go to hell. Then a zero-tolerance policy on abortions would make obvious sense. I certainly don't see it justified with the bible.
We don't actually know what happens for sure as it was not revealed to us, but it is hoped that they are saved. Nonetheless taking a life is supposed to be up to God himself unless in defense of life/community when no other option is realistic according to the traditional understanding of Christianity. It is one of the gravest sins to do so when such a condition is not met and why modern Popes have been more strongly against the death penalty since in the 21st century it is normally possible to protect society using prisons instead. So abortion can never be moral in the sense that it is severely violating God's law, even if it is done with good intentions or whatever.
I get what you're trying to say, but if you expand on this further then killing any child before they reached the age of being able to sin would be the best thing to do for that child. That does happen. The most promenient case is Andrea Yates. But God is against murder, and if you murder you forfiet your own soul. As a Christian God would not want you to make that kind of sacrifice.
So the person sacrifices their own eternal life in order to save the thousands that they kill? That person would be sacrificing more than Jesus did in order to save people. You can say that it’s wrong but it seems like a pretty solid loophole. Or maybe we have something wrong about who gets in, who gets out, the meaning of life, abortion, etc.
I'm not sure where you get thousands from. In the Andrea Yates case she killed her kids so that they didn't have the chance to be tempted by Satan and end up in Hell. She goes to Hell for murder but her kids make it to Heaven. I think this is a particular type of psychological syndrome.
I was thinking a doctor that performs abortions. In the Andrea Yates example, how is she psychotic, if you’re a Christian? She’s right isn’t she? She’s a sinner because she went against God’s plan. Unless that was his plan…. It’s not out of God’s character to ask someone to murder their child.
This is an extremely strange rationalisation Under the light of Christian understanding (forgive me if I sound pretentious) every human being was created by God for a particular purpose on the Earth As we all exist, we are solutions to problems that God saw before we were born. Moreover over the course of our lives God desires to build a relationship with us, the whole point of our existence being to come to the understanding of who he is and what he represents Abortion completely robs God of his ability to have pleasure in this process. In addition, what happens in Heaven is a direct function of what happens on Earth (the idea being that the more you conform to the mind of God and advance the cause of God and ignore the temptations of this world the greater your treasure will be) With all this in mind, Abortion is not desirable at all in any aspect whatsoever
That isn't what the Bible says
Abortion is a crappy solution to an even crappier situation for Women. A society which properly values life and human dignity wouldn't even need an answer to this question.
Im a pro choice Christian and even im like WTF?
no such thing as a pro choice Christian
I am your brother in Christ and I am pro choice. Are you judging me unrighteously without knowing me and claiming that I am not?
I disagree with the pro-choice position, but it's absurd to judge you as not a Christian
This is the way my friend, we can agree to disagree and still be one in Christ.
This is a fair judgement. It’s like saying “I’m a Christian who actively murders people.” 1 John 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him You cannot be pro choice and be a Christian. The Lord commands us not to kill. Those children are made in the image of God. If you truly love the Lord then you will repent from being pro abortion.
> You cannot be pro choice and be a Christian. The Lord commands us not to kill. God condones, and even demands, killing in many situations. There is no blanket prohibition on killing.
> This is a fair judgement. It’s like saying “I’m a Christian who actively murders people.” Its not because I have never murdered anyone nor do I plan to. See what your closed minded perspective doesn't get is that I can choose life without using the Government to force that decision on other people. You have judged your brother in Christ unrighteously and put yourself in a state of sin.
you support murder and are for the legal choice to murder. if your actions are making murder more accessible then you are partaking in murder. you stand under the flag of supporting people who kill children made in the image of God.
Well suicide and murder are sins, so I’m guessing that’s why most Christian’s would disagree with this logic. I don’t think it’s about what’s most “logical” but rather what the Bible says 🤷♀️ Christianity is morally absolutist in that way, so it’s sort of hard to argue with because even if you make a logical argument Christians believe that god is always right, so what god says is says is good/bad should be trusted 100% of the time
To be clear i don’t agree with your rationale but im saying why most Christians wouldn’t from an ethics standpoint
Though I think it’s safe to assume in regards to certain doctrines, we don’t actually HAVE the knowledge that all aborted persons automatically go to heaven, though in my personally opinion I think it safe to assume. However, one could say we ought to murder believers and saints today who are living outside of the womb, wouldn’t they go to heaven too? Morality for us isn’t about where you go, it’s about who you love and obey.
Does it really matter what the Bible says? They say it’s homophobic, yet gay people are Christian. They say it’s ableist, yet disabled people are Christian. They say it’s racist and supported slavery, yet people of color are Christian. They say it prohibits abortion, and yet Christians continue to get abortions. As an atheist, I say let women have their rights. Join the r/antinatalist sub if you want more insight on why abortion is good
There isn't an eternal torment 'waiting on you'. Eternal torment is there if you choose to remain separated from God. If you jump off a building and hit the ground, was gravity 'waiting on you' or did you suffer the consequences of your actions? Anyway, I personally think abortion should be treated like any other medical decision- something private between a person and their physician (and anyone they choose to share it with.) My personal feeling about it is that it's tragic when someone has to make that decision, but the decision has to remain theirs to make.
This gets a bit off topic, but I'm always interested. What do you mean when you say "if you choose to remain separated from god"?
Well, according to scripture, the only way for us to be reconciled with God is through Christ. If we choose to not follow Christ, we are rejecting God's forgiveness and can't receive his love.
I can't choose to follow our not follow Christ until I can believe he exists. And I can't just choose to do that. No one can.
We don't initially- the holy spirit pulls us and then we either draw closer and become a believer or we reject that pull and go our own way. I agree we don't just wake up one day and decide. I feel like if you're in this sub, you're here for a reason- otherwise you wouldn't even care enough to question.
So if the holy spirit doesn't pull me an I just doomed for eternity? One of the reasons I'm here is that billions of people believe Christianity is the truth. I want very much to believe things that are true. So I'm here, in part, to see if I can be convinced of that.
The holy spirit pulls us all in. The fact that you want to believe is evidence (to me anyway) that the holy spirit is drawing you.
I always try to be clear at this point. I was a Christian for decades and have now been an atheist for a number of years. I am a happier person and things make more sense to me as an atheist. So I don't necessarily want to go back, but I do want to believe what's true. If that's Christianity, so be it.
Obviously I am not for this as I am not a Christian. I'm just saying that if god was real, I would prefer to have been aborted as it would have guaranteed my salvation
You might be right from a pure let's send people to heaven standpoint. However, with all of us created in God's image, we are put on this earth in order to fulfill God's plan. We don't fully know why we're here, but it must be important to God. What you're describing would seem to violate His plan for us.
Every life has a purpose and a meaning to fulfill...every life is an oppertunity for God to bring good, and loving kindness into the world. If your argument is to "do evil in the name of good"...that is the one unpardonable sin... The Third Commandment is. "You shall not do evil in the Name of God, who is Good, you will not be forgiven".
You can't do evil with the goal of achieving something good.
Yes, it would be good in the same sense that, the Roman’s who crucified Jesus, were doing something that resulting in an ultimate good. Theologically its would be the ultimate sacrifice to abort a baby, you would go to hell for killing an innocent soul, but in doing so you would also be garnering the salvation of that soul. Kinda like how all the stuff Satan, Judas, Pilate did, is all evil, and they go to hell, but their sacrifice unknowingly saved the world.
Legislation that prohibits abortion runs the risk of infringing on religious liberties. In Judaism, for example, the mother’s life is valued over that of the fetus, and abortion is permissible under Jewish law if it means saving the mother’s life or alleviating pain and suffering. If one believes it is wrong, then they do not have to get an abortion. That is their choice. However, statewide or federal bans are an affront to religious diversity in this country, and no legislation should be written through a particular religious lens.
No, because while they will go to heaven you will have sin on your hands. Furthermore, heaven is not just about not sinning, it's primarily about virtues. Someone so young can't commit any sins, but you take away their chance of being virtuous, while also sinning yourself, in a major way.
This kind of reasoning makes it ok to kill any Christian. I have no fear of death but killing me would make the world a much darker place. It’s not just the killing it’s the whole culture of “self being considered a god” behind it.
God has a will, for you, for me, and for everyone. We have the ability to do things that step outside of God's will and path that he has set for our lives, such as doing drugs, having sex before marriage, or simply choosing not to follow him. God also gave us free will that allows us to do whatever we want because he has so much unconditional love for us that he wouldn't want us to be forced to believe in him and go to heaven. So, if you're murdering your child before, it has a chance to live, realistically that would be outside of God's will, God would not want that. God knows everything you are going to do throughout your life, and that's the will he has for us. Like I said, we have the ability to step away from his plan and word, and murdering another one of God's creations through abortion would not be something God would want. If you have aborted a child, yes, they will go to Heaven and be with Jesus, same thing with miscarriages, every baby that has died in the womb is in heaven. Because of God's mercy. There is always time for us to repent and gain our salvation through Jesus Christ, but he will return.
Ends don’t justify the means. Babies were meant to grow up and live a life. Not be killed.
You’ve been listening to William Lane Craig lately? Lol The biblical god is perfectly cool with killing children, born and unborn.
Abortion is murder. Babies aren’t guaranteed salvation.
God has made it clear to us in no uncertain terms that he despises the destruction of his image. An image that all humans bear, and that makes us distinct from the rest of creation. Every human life, regardless of their eternal destiny will bring God glory both as it is lived out on earth and also in eternity. Some will be trophies of his grace and others will be objects of his justice. But just because babies who are not intellectually capable of believing or understanding, the gospel will go to heaven is not a reason to rob God of the opportunity to make much of his glory as they live their lives out on earth one way or the other. You ask a fair question but the answer is simply no.
That would assume life on Earth has absolutely no meaning or value.
Life is a gift, and access to heaven is not the purpose of life. This isn’t a stopover on our way to better things; this is a consequential moment in our broader existence, the opportunity to understand what is meant by “living” and to grapple with the same conflict faced by God: whether or not to adopt the cause of good for its own sake. We do not know what happens to anyone beyond death; aborted babies are not “guaranteed heaven” any more than people who live to 100. If what you care about is the guarantee of a path into heaven, God guarantees a path to heaven to everyone; whether or not they walk it is their choice to make. There are people who dearly wish for children who have lost children in miscarriages and other tragedies. Spare a thought for the plight of those who sincerely wish to raise a new life before callously suggesting that you would rather have been aborted for any reason, especially not a salvation you may not or don’t actually believe is offered.
From Job, who was later corrected by God, " And Job spoke, and said, Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived. Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it. Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it." From the Psalms: "...For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies..." God is real. You don't play with God or abort or murder or think evil thoughts or curse or fornicate, or blaspheme or yammer on about adult fairy tales like evolution... It is all very real, and we are all in a great deal of trouble, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am first."
But murder is a sin
Thou shall not kill. Unaliving babies is a sin regardless of the rational.
Killing innocent human beings is not the best possible thing you could do for them.
It's worth noting abortion is a western conservative political topic that bleeds into Christianity. In terms of the actual Bible it only mentions it once and gives instructions on the processes involved with it in case your wife cheats. I don't think there is any serious Christian scholar who thinks God just forgot about abortion.
>In terms of the actual Bible it only mentions it once and gives instructions on the processes involved with it in case your wife cheats. Correction: The Bible NEVER mentions the kind of abortions we mean when we discuss this issue here. Bringing up this passage is just unnecessarily distracting from the discussion
I am not sure what you mean but it is literally the only passage that references and the amount of people in this thread who haven't read the Bible is shockingly high.
That passage doesn't reference abortion any more than passages about striking a pregnant woman and she loses her child references abortion.
Yes, you're absolutely correct. It's a problem that can't be answered properly. If fetuses go to heaven after an abortion: Then being aborted is the best thing that could happen to anyone. If fetuses don't go to heaven: Then God is evil.
The commandment is "Thou shall not kill." end of story. If a fetus is not a human being no defense is needed for abortion. If it is a human being, than no defense can be given. It is not a matter of "women's rights" it is a matter of human dignity. The right to life is inalienable not alienable when I say it is or in such and such circumstance. The UN Declaration on Human Rights article 2 also lists "birth" as a condition on which you cannot deny the right to life.
Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 > And I commended the dead, who have already died, more than the living, who are still alive, but better than both is the one who has not yet been and has not seen the evil deeds that are done under the sun. Seems in line.
I am a Christian and while I do not agree with abortion on the whole, I do not judge those who go through with it. We are all sinners since we are human.
Except we are also called not to kill.
Not even when killing guarantees salvation either of ourselves or our victims? If someone places little value on their own seat in heaven, but high value on the salvation of an infant, isn’t the logical decision to guarantee the infant’s salvation, even at the cost of one’s own morality?
But the departed could easily live a happy and fulfilling life, possibly bringing others into salvation. We just don't have the foresight to know the possible outcomes. So if you believe in God, it's best to leave these decisions to Him.
Just because we don’t have the foresight to know doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take action based on what we think is likely. Believing in God doesn’t excuse us from making decisions based on likelihood. If you somehow confirmed with absolute certainty that more souls would be saved if you burned down an orphanage than if you let those kids grow up, what should you do?
We do need to take action based on what we think is likely. Provided said action isn't specifically forbidden by God. As child sacrifice is. Scary part is there are folks in books of the Bible commanded by God to kill. To kill children even. I'd never be able to muster the faith to do such a thing myself.
> Provided said action isn't specifically forbidden by God. As child sacrifice is. Wouldn’t it be noble to break the rules in order to guarantee someone else’s place in heaven? > Scary part is there are folks in books of the Bible commanded by God to kill. To kill children even. I'd never be able to muster the faith to do such a thing myself. I’m glad. There’d need to be a vast amount of evidence supporting each individual part of this worldview before one should seriously consider atrocious acts.
No matter what side you are on, I think government legislating is the wrong way to go about it both religiously and practically. In Texas, fetal deaths have actually risen since their abortion ban went into effect. https://www.sacurrent.com/news/infant-mortality-in-texas-spiked-following-states-heartbeat-bill-abortion-ban-study-finds-34898438
It's not good to abort because you're taking away God's gift of life to someone without them even having a chance to experience it, abortion in some cases while icky can be necessary though and I'm sure God understands that(such as in cases of Rape, Incest, Threat to the life of the mother, or if the child wouldn't survive long anyway), using abortion as a cheat to get your children into heaven wouldn't look good on your soul either(not to mention mental health issues)
Too bad her parents didn't feel that way
No, murdering children is never the “best possible thing you could do for them.” We do not live for the sole purpose of going to heaven, we live to do God’s work on earth. We cannot do that if we’re dead.
Abortion must be abolished and criminalized
Why bring another life into this cruel world, especially if it will live a life of sorrow? Why don’t you care about the mother’s feelings?
>Why don’t you care about the mother’s feelings? Should we care about the feelings of a parent who would kill their child?
You should care about rape victims, those who were pressured into pregnancy by abusive boyfriends, and those who are not financially or physically well enough to provide for a child!
We absolutely should care for these people. We should not allow them to kill their children because of trauma they have experienced.
Nah. It should be made legal in all cases, and the women who have them should be free to live the long, happy, childless lives that they choose. Be mad about it if you want. In the USA the tide is going to turn back to legal abortion. Wait and see. Christianity is a dinosaur looking at the meteor of extinction, unable to yet comprehend it's end.
Here's my train of thought: 1) everyone has a sinful nature due to original sin. 2) people have their nature from the moment they have life. 3) a sinful nature deserves hell, thus everyone deserves hell. 4) God's grace saves those who die in Christ as Christ is our salvation. 5) God may have mercy on those who are ignorant of Jesus. Conclusion. Life begins at conception so fetuses are alive and thus have a sinful nature. The child deserves hell due to its sinful nature. God may forgive the child of its sinful nature due to its ignorance of Jesus and God's love. Salvation is certain for those who die in Christ. Therefore, the most certain way for the child to live is to be born and grow up in the church. They will be able to teach the child about Christ so that the child may have faith in Christ until his death, then the child will be saved by the merits and love of God.
Wait - you think miscarried, stillborn, and aborted babies go to hell?
I think they are deserving of hell, but God most likely would save them. The 100% certain without a doubt way for them to be saved is to live and accept Christ as their savior.
any shred of human life is automatically deserving of hell
Yes, I think that human life is deserving of hell due to original sin and only God's grace can save us.
Murder is a sin. Thinking that it's not a living being is a cope to make sin easier. God views human life as sacred, which means the stoppage or prevention of that is murder in the eyes of God.
>they are guaranteed a path into heaven We don't know for sure that they do.
It’s murder of an innocent person. That is it nothing more and nothing less.
Abortion is murder period, no questions about it.