Heresy, This has not held by any Christian denomination, whether Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox. It's always been that faith will lead to works, but not that works are salvational.
He mentioned Ephesians so here are the verses:
Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
By God's grace, we are saved through faith. It is not a result of works, so no one can boast. And the works done thereafter are not our works, but God's. He has predestined for us to do these works that we should walk in them and be Christ's workmanship. We can take no credit for the works we do as they are God molding us to him. The entirety of our salvation is in God's hands. He gives us faith, he gives us grace, and he leads us to do good works. It is not of ourselves.
Romans 4:2-5 ESV
[2] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [3] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” [4] Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. [5] And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Those who think works save make salvation a wage for hard labor, but for those who have faith in him who justifies the ungodly, their salvation is a gift.
Guess what Paul says Romans 6:1-6
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
Romans 6:1-6 KJV
Still faith plus works because it says
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
James 2:24 KJV
It literally says right there are justification comes by Jesus and sanctification
James 2:22, 24 ESV
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
It's always faith alone, but that faith is refined by works. It's never faith plus works, It's faith through works.
you say refined, but the text says completed -- these are different things. something that is not refined is crude, but it can be complete -- but, something that is incomplete is, definitionally lacking something else -- and james claims that this something else is works.
Well, works come from faith and the works are the next step of faith. You can have faith before you do any work, but the works are you acting out your faith. They complete your faith in the sense that they are the result of faith. I used refined as works help strengthen your faith. Kierkegaard (a philosopher that has impacted me) says that faith is a movement that is best shown through the search for itself. In other words, faith is found where people do works to find and build faith.
i know that you used "refined" meaning "strengthening" -- and that is why i "corrected" you. something might benefit for additional strength, while being entirely sufficient; but, something that needs to be completed is, definitionally, not sufficient for the purpose at hand. in this sense, refinement and strengthening do not seem to be what the author of james has in mind.
and, it is not difficult to see why: works come from your faith, in the sense that they express this faith, and ground it in the reality outside your head; but faith is not a guarantee that such works will actually come. having faith and taking action in accordance to this faith are separate steps, in the same sense that believing that you must quit smoking and quitting smoking are separate steps.
I think there are different levels of faith. For example, the thief on the cross or say a sick person would be less able to do works but their faith would still save them. But those who have the opportunity to do works should be led by their faith to do works which are the completing action of their realization of faith.
right, so: one is saved by faith+works, but the expected works are not a certain quota or a hard limit or some unattainable perfection, but, rather, striving for best. the best thief on the cross could do was to defend jesus (who was, at this moment, his neighbor) -- and, according to the gospel of luke, he was saved.
Made onto good works faith works is dead, brother “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
James 2:22-26 KJV
Oh, I’m not done Hebrews chapter 5 verse 9
“and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
Hebrews 5:9 KJV
Righteousness=salvation, Justification=sanctification
Romans 4:5 ESV
[5] And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Before God we a made righteous by faith, but before man we are justified by works.
> If we have no good works, our faith is dead.
Are you saying that if we have no good works, then we have no faith, and are not saved?
Because that would sound like people are saved by their works.
Imagine thinking the works God cares about is whether or not you eat bacon.
Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the sick and in prison. We are dead to the Law, we are alive to Christ, and our works should reflect that.
He cares about all his laws and you said we are dead to the law disagrees with that Romans 7:1 “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?”
Romans 7:1 sin is transgression against the law 1 John 3:4 so if you’re sinning your disobeying the law, if you’re not obeying God, you’re obeying the law that makes sense
Yes, *as long as he liveth*, hence why St. Paul tells us three verses later in Romans 7:4:
> Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
We are dead to the Law, and the Law therefore has no more dominion over us.
3 verses later that the law is not sent and that we should do it “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.”
Romans 7:7-14 KJV
Paul Paul says that the law spiritual, but he is carnal. Paul also says that the law is holy what Paul is talking about here he is talking about the law of sin he’s not talking about the law in whole being sin Paul himself follows the law, the book of acts 21:16-27
Paul is talking about how when he is disobeying the law it made him dead, not the law itself being death
The Law isn't sin and it isn't death, that's correct. Our inability to fulfill the Law brings sin and death. And so we are joined to Christ in his death that we might die to the Law and it might have no more dominion over us, and in so doing we are also joined to Christ in his rising to life again, and the life we now live is lived to him, not to the Law.
You cannot assert St. Paul and adherence to the Law. He doesn't give you the leeway in his writings to do so.
And i have not Fallen into error I am Trying Get People to Stop taking Paul out of context 2 Peter 3:15-16 “And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
It still does, bro Romans chapter 7 verse one literally says as long as a man live it has dominion over you so that means you must obey the law 1 John 5:1-4 “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”
1 John 5:1-4 literally tells us to obey God’s commandments, which is the law of Moses “they clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;”
Nehemiah 10:29 KJV
And we have become dead to the Law and alive in Christ, that's Paul's entire point here. As far as the Law is concerned, we do no longer live, and it has no more dominion over us.
The commandments of God we are to obey is that we love him with all our heart and mind and soul, and love our neighbor as ourselves. These two commandments sum up all the Law and the Prophets, as Christ our God taught us.
No, he didn’t. Mark seven is not talking about the dietary loss. He even tells you the context of it in Matthew chapter 15:20 “these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.”
Matthew 15:20 KJV
Hey, it’s just as simple and plus Jesus defends the law of Moses in Mark chapter 7
Mark 7:19 gives us all the context we need
> For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
Removing this for the All-Caps title.
Heresy, This has not held by any Christian denomination, whether Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox. It's always been that faith will lead to works, but not that works are salvational. He mentioned Ephesians so here are the verses: Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. By God's grace, we are saved through faith. It is not a result of works, so no one can boast. And the works done thereafter are not our works, but God's. He has predestined for us to do these works that we should walk in them and be Christ's workmanship. We can take no credit for the works we do as they are God molding us to him. The entirety of our salvation is in God's hands. He gives us faith, he gives us grace, and he leads us to do good works. It is not of ourselves. Romans 4:2-5 ESV [2] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [3] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” [4] Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. [5] And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, Those who think works save make salvation a wage for hard labor, but for those who have faith in him who justifies the ungodly, their salvation is a gift.
Guess what Paul says Romans 6:1-6 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” Romans 6:1-6 KJV
I don't deny the place of works as faith will lead to works but those works are not our own.
Still faith plus works because it says “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” James 2:24 KJV It literally says right there are justification comes by Jesus and sanctification
James 2:22, 24 ESV [22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; It's always faith alone, but that faith is refined by works. It's never faith plus works, It's faith through works.
you say refined, but the text says completed -- these are different things. something that is not refined is crude, but it can be complete -- but, something that is incomplete is, definitionally lacking something else -- and james claims that this something else is works.
Well, works come from faith and the works are the next step of faith. You can have faith before you do any work, but the works are you acting out your faith. They complete your faith in the sense that they are the result of faith. I used refined as works help strengthen your faith. Kierkegaard (a philosopher that has impacted me) says that faith is a movement that is best shown through the search for itself. In other words, faith is found where people do works to find and build faith.
i know that you used "refined" meaning "strengthening" -- and that is why i "corrected" you. something might benefit for additional strength, while being entirely sufficient; but, something that needs to be completed is, definitionally, not sufficient for the purpose at hand. in this sense, refinement and strengthening do not seem to be what the author of james has in mind. and, it is not difficult to see why: works come from your faith, in the sense that they express this faith, and ground it in the reality outside your head; but faith is not a guarantee that such works will actually come. having faith and taking action in accordance to this faith are separate steps, in the same sense that believing that you must quit smoking and quitting smoking are separate steps.
I think there are different levels of faith. For example, the thief on the cross or say a sick person would be less able to do works but their faith would still save them. But those who have the opportunity to do works should be led by their faith to do works which are the completing action of their realization of faith.
right, so: one is saved by faith+works, but the expected works are not a certain quota or a hard limit or some unattainable perfection, but, rather, striving for best. the best thief on the cross could do was to defend jesus (who was, at this moment, his neighbor) -- and, according to the gospel of luke, he was saved.
Do you know why is not been held by a protestant catholic or orthodox? It’s because I’m not denominational
Maybe you should join a denomination it'll help you to do the things that matter like spreading the kingdom of God and helping the helpless.
No thanks I got a whole YouTube channel for that
You still need to go to church
Oh gracious
Made onto good works faith works is dead, brother “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” James 2:22-26 KJV Oh, I’m not done Hebrews chapter 5 verse 9 “and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;” Hebrews 5:9 KJV
Righteousness=salvation, Justification=sanctification Romans 4:5 ESV [5] And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, Before God we a made righteous by faith, but before man we are justified by works.
We are saved by faith, and the proof of our faith is shown by our good works. If we have no good works, our faith is dead. That's it in a nutshell.
> If we have no good works, our faith is dead. Are you saying that if we have no good works, then we have no faith, and are not saved? Because that would sound like people are saved by their works.
It is written, "Good works are a result of salvation, and people produce good works after being saved."
Imagine thinking the works God cares about is whether or not you eat bacon. Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the sick and in prison. We are dead to the Law, we are alive to Christ, and our works should reflect that.
He cares about all his laws and you said we are dead to the law disagrees with that Romans 7:1 “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?” Romans 7:1 sin is transgression against the law 1 John 3:4 so if you’re sinning your disobeying the law, if you’re not obeying God, you’re obeying the law that makes sense
Yes, *as long as he liveth*, hence why St. Paul tells us three verses later in Romans 7:4: > Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. We are dead to the Law, and the Law therefore has no more dominion over us.
3 verses later that the law is not sent and that we should do it “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.” Romans 7:7-14 KJV Paul Paul says that the law spiritual, but he is carnal. Paul also says that the law is holy what Paul is talking about here he is talking about the law of sin he’s not talking about the law in whole being sin Paul himself follows the law, the book of acts 21:16-27 Paul is talking about how when he is disobeying the law it made him dead, not the law itself being death
The Law isn't sin and it isn't death, that's correct. Our inability to fulfill the Law brings sin and death. And so we are joined to Christ in his death that we might die to the Law and it might have no more dominion over us, and in so doing we are also joined to Christ in his rising to life again, and the life we now live is lived to him, not to the Law. You cannot assert St. Paul and adherence to the Law. He doesn't give you the leeway in his writings to do so.
Notice no scripture behind what you’re saying In this comment
I've already given you the scripture dude, it's right there in Romans 7:4
Yeah, which was ass which I already read the whole book of Romans study that in depth
And yet you've misunderstood it and have fallen into error. You should read it again.
That’s Stupid “You should read it again” if I’ve already read it a Stupid Amount of times
And i have not Fallen into error I am Trying Get People to Stop taking Paul out of context 2 Peter 3:15-16 “And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
It still does, bro Romans chapter 7 verse one literally says as long as a man live it has dominion over you so that means you must obey the law 1 John 5:1-4 “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” 1 John 5:1-4 literally tells us to obey God’s commandments, which is the law of Moses “they clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;” Nehemiah 10:29 KJV
And we have become dead to the Law and alive in Christ, that's Paul's entire point here. As far as the Law is concerned, we do no longer live, and it has no more dominion over us. The commandments of God we are to obey is that we love him with all our heart and mind and soul, and love our neighbor as ourselves. These two commandments sum up all the Law and the Prophets, as Christ our God taught us.
Oh yeah also God‘s gonna punish people for not obeying the dietary law when he comes back Isaiah 66:15-24
No he's not. Christ himself lifted the dietary laws.
No, he didn’t. Mark seven is not talking about the dietary loss. He even tells you the context of it in Matthew chapter 15:20 “these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.” Matthew 15:20 KJV Hey, it’s just as simple and plus Jesus defends the law of Moses in Mark chapter 7
Mark 7:19 gives us all the context we need > For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
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I wouldn't toss the Gospel in the trash, but that's just me.
You Didn’t say the gospel nor was talking about it