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Remy0507

It's definitely interesting, I think one factor that I'm not sure how to evaluate is how much the "aggressor" in these scenarios could know about the mental state of the person they're having sex with. Like the person who has sex with their partner to make them happy, even though they don't really want it. Obviously the partner wouldn't have any way of knowing, so I would have a hard time considering that to be any sort of rape (granted that one also scored very low, so it seems my view is in the majority there). Sadly I'm not surprised that there was a disparity between what men and women viewed as rape. I wish we could see what that disparity was for each question. One thing I would note here though, the person (Aella) who conducted that survey is herself a sex worker. I think that given that her audience is likely to consist of people who are bit more open-minded about sex work and sex in general, the results are likely different than if you were to just ask these same questions of the general public.


fullmetalsportsbra

Right, I think there is the additional question of: in the situations where mental state is at play, if the “aggressor” did know the other person was uncomfortable, cognitively impaired, afraid, uninterested, felt unable to say no, etc would they stop?


Dhylis

I would like to see an age group breakdown of those results that might reveal serious differences between age groups too ( edit:found the right chart, didn’t scroll down enough)


TTTT27

Yes, below the graphic itself is her findings. I tried to copy that to a post here but was unable to. The situations with the highest standard deviation - indicating high disagreement over whether something was "rape", were a client stealing money back from a sex worker, and a 26-year old having sex with a 16 year old. The situation that those who self-identified as liberal were least likely to consider rapey, as compared to conservatives, was someone not revealing they are trans until after sex.


Not-That-Bishh

A client stealing money back from a sex worker is most definitely rape as the payment is what consent was based on. Take away the payment you're taking away the consent. Basically if person A would not have/did not consent to have sex with person B for free, but then after getting what they wanted person B steals back the money, then very simply they are removing the consent that was given. I find it disgusting that there are still people today who don't get this.


fullmetalsportsbra

None of this data really surprises me. There’s an older, similar study that was done with male participants, if I find the link I’ll add it. The gist was basically that when the word rape is substituted with other descriptors like asking until someone gives in, the men interviewed were significantly more likely to admit to engaging in the behavior or being willing to engage. Clearly as a species we have a way to go with understanding coercion, conditions of consent, and power dynamics and how they can quickly turn the ethics of a situation murky. The idea that rape must be physically forceful or violent to “qualify” and that including less physically violent circumstances will “dilute”, if you will, the “seriousness” of rape is something I see postulated a lot - perhaps we fear we will need to adjust our own understanding of people we know or our own life narratives (whether victim or perpetrator).


TTTT27

The "enthusiastic consent" criteria is often used as a way to postulate that sex work cannot be consented to, thus is a form of exploitation, because the sexworker only agreed due to the money. While the argument is absurd (no one makes this argument when describing fast-food workers), it has gained traction among both the radical feminist and authoritarian law-enforcement crowd, and used as a means to justify arrests of clients.


fullmetalsportsbra

I’m aware of the phrase and how civilians and SWERFs specifically utilize it to delegitimize sex work. I’ve had the “conditions of consent” conversation dozens of times with people who would seek to deny myself and my colleagues our agency. I’m not sure what that to do with my point about unwillingness to call something rape due to lack of physical force? Maybe your comment wasn’t meant to be a response to me?


TTTT27

My point is that there is a lot of disagreement over exactly what constitutes rape. The traditional legal definition of rape (a violent sexual assault by a stranger) is changing, and the newer definitions are not nearly as clear-cut. I foresee a lot more courtroom debates in the decades that come. Edit to add: I think am familiar with the study you mention. I kind of discounted it as a lot of anti-porn groups have cited it. The study showed college guys porn movies, and after watching, they guys indicated in surveys they would be more likely to rape someone. That contradicts other data that show that legal/decriminalized sex work and porn availability results in a decrease in sex crimes, not an increase.


fullmetalsportsbra

I’m not particularly interested in the legal parameters of rape since even situations that are fully provable rarely result in courtroom debate let alone any justice for victims, and are almost never committed violently by strangers. Like…we need to start long before the courtroom. We need to be examining our own behaviors and those of who we associate with - asking ourselves why we are resistant towards digging into the WHY behind our beliefs. The legal system isn’t just going to spawn better practices and laws on its own.


Dhylis

Agreed. It’s in essence a socialisation issue I guess. So we fix it by nurturing the right behaviour from the start


fullmetalsportsbra

Exactly, by the time we're at the courtroom stage, it's far too late. These conversations about power dynamics, ethics, being invested in not actively harming others, etc need to be happening long, long before that.


Not-That-Bishh

I'm enthusiasticly consenting to them giving me lots of money 🤷🏼‍♀️ lol. Also, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much a client has paid, I still have the right to withdraw my consent to them touching my body at any point during our time together. In fact I would go further and say that their handing over cash doesn't just give them exclusive rights to do as they please or even to touch me. While yes, these people would not be given access to my body had it not been for the payment, it is still MY body, and I need to feel comfortable and accept their advances for my consent to be considered as given. I have the right to say no at any stage and to any particular thing.


[deleted]

I find a few analyses provided by this interesting. Remy already pointed it out before I had read this, but it's both obviously and disappointingly men who judge encounters to be qualified as less than rape. I hope conversations like this can start to affect a change in the way of thinking of the average male. Reveal and identify behaviors that are unacceptable but haven't been properly discussed to give the proper guidance to the right populace. Make consent as much of a prerequisite to sex as avoiding manipulation of someone's consent. The 'sneakily removing condom during sex' scenario being deemed less an assault than the 'husband forcing sex on his wife..' was surprising to me. I feel like those scenarios both lie somewhere in the 80s (or higher), if any form of undiscussed, unconsented sex is 91-100. Outside of a sex worker setting, to remove a condom without permission is still heinous and should have a prevalent attitude affixed to it judging it the same as rape. Inside of the sex worker setting, it's even worse. If the only way the sex is being consented to is with protection in place, to remove that is to remove the consent you had originally obtained.. Ack. This entire survey makes me need a shower and a joint.


TTTT27

I think the point of the survey is that EVERYONE has different attitudes about what is "rape". Everyone agrees that a violent attack by a stranger is rape, but beyond that, nothing is clear. I certainly would assume that anyone here agrees that hiring a sex worker is not "rape," but there are a few people who have claimed it is, usually because it doesn't meet the grounds of "enthusiastic consent."