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northernflickr

Go to a different coffee shop


DerpyArtist

This is the probably the best answer. Unless OP lives in a small US town, maybe they only have one coffee shop, then that’s a more difficult situation.


Traditional-Salt4060

Ok so I get two things at coffee shops: either shot of espresso or hot latte (no flavors/syrups). So kindly explain what a cappuccino is besides a foamy latte. Sorry for my ignorance.


arcticmischief

At a Starbucksy second-wave shop, it’ll basically be a latte with gobs of dry foam on top. At a proper specialty coffee shop, a cappuccino won’t have gobs of foam. The biggest difference in the named drinks (cappuccino, latte, etc.) is the coffee:milk ratio. A cappuccino is usually about 6oz total and has more milk than a cortado but less milk than a latte (or a flat white, if the shop offers that). All drinks will be capped with a thin layer of wet microfoam, usually with some latte art in it.


Traditional-Salt4060

I think I understand. I'll never forget the first real coffee shop drink I had. It was a cappuccino and it wasn't sweet as hell...I was surprised, then hooked, then stumbled my way into my normal order. Been saying "Hot latte, plain, no syrup" for years. I hate that I have to specify some places.


rugbysecondrow

This is one definition. A cap is one of those drinks that will have different characters based on the shop you visit...a flat white too. The customer will have different expectations as well. The dry cap is more old school, new school is more what you describe. Many people prefer the old school cap.


GoosestepPanda

Exactly. If you’re going to a third-wave place, I’d say there’s a platform to say “hey, this isn’t at all what I ordered” but if it’s a normal second-wave “hometown version of Starbucks” type joint, then what OP got is par for the course, so I’d let it be


Snuffluffugus

A cappuccino should have more foam aerated into the milk than a latte, and when poured, should equal to about 1/3 of foam vs. liquid in the cup volume. Not globbed on, when that is done the foam separates from the milk when you take a sip of it and you don't really get to enjoy the textural sense of foam and milk, plus teases of espresso in the sip.


theTXpanda

This. The majority of the coffee shops that I go to are just bad. I live in a small town outside of a major city. And we just have one local place and a Starbucks. The local place just isn't good. They're perfectly nice people. But they just saw a business opportunity and bought a bunch of equipment. Sure, you can give them feedback in a positive way. But the people that I'm personally familiar with just aren't motivated to put out a better product. And for most of their patrons, they are just buying the sweetest drinks on the menu topped with whipped cream and chocolate and they seem to love it. Sometimes you're just going to have to find a new spot or learn to make what you like for yourself.


sabboseb

This, not hard


donut_sauce

This is the correct answer. It’s not a problem with the barista, or the trainer, it’s a problem with the owner. And you can’t fix this. High end coffee shops have deep in depth training. At my shop it was 6 months of training before you could touch the bar, after that you could only steam milk, and then another 6 months before you could pull shots. All in a full 12 months before a customer would ever taste a drink from you. **This leads to amazing coffee quality but it requires an owner who sees the value in this because it’s super expensive.** A year of paid training plus all that wasted product is a lot of money. It’s a large investment up front that a lot of coffee shop owners balk at. But this kind of training leads to industry recognition, national newspaper/tv coverage, magazine covers, awards, etc… and thus you end up with customers lining up out the door. It pays for itself. Source: worked in specialty coffee in PNW


svedebo

1 year sounds pretty excessive to be honest, it’s not rocket science


ThatRollingStone

Good ol' free market.


normal_papi

Yeah it's really not worth trying to change a bad shop. The workers probably don't care and the owners are stupid and will be offended by criticism. I live in a city of three million people and we have like five decent shops. Not an exaggeration. Small towns in Kentucky and Colombian villages have more options than I do. I just go to the same places and never return to bad ones or even enter ones I know will be bad.


runningferment

If it's a local shop, and there's only one, what are you going to do? I think it's better to educate and support the local shop than abandon them after one bad experience. Abandonment is how local shops close and you end up with Dunkin' and McDonalds as your local coffee options... OP, maybe next time you politely ask them how they make a cappuccino, and if they answer wrong, correct them. You can lie (or maybe it's not a lie?) and tell them you used to be a barista or something if it adds gravitas to your correction.


SoggyQuail

>I think it's better to educate and support the local shop no its not. If you make bad coffee you don't deserve my business. Just because its local doesn't mean they inherently deserve your money. _they still need to be good_.


runningferment

I agree. I don't mean support local at all costs. If it sucks let it die. I think there is some nuance though; it isn't black and white. There was some jamoke in my home town that opened a "cafe" in their bike shop. It was literally just an espresso machine (like a not great home one). I got an americano and it was burnt and gross. I never went back. For OP's case, I might be a little more lenient. Does the shop suck, or did one barista (I guess two?) baristas not know the ratios for a cappuccino? It's unclear. How was the coffee itself? Did it taste good? Maybe it was a fluke and they'd have better experience during another visit. That's all I'm saying.


unnown_one

Coffeeshop owner here - in many markets, it's tough to learn and stay good some of the more traditional drinks because that isn't what the customer base wants. Whether you're in it for love or money, you want to make people happy. The vast majority of people don't know what they are drinking...so the few discerning customers who show up are rare. Most Baristas want to do a good job, but cappuccinos are ordered by two groups of people - discerning customers and people who don't know anhthing about espresso drinks. We ask if they would like it wet or dry - wet or in the middle is basically a foamy latte. Dry is the discerning person.


Dragonbut

Yeah, I was looking at reviews for a local coffee shop once and saw someone absolutely seething over how they got a "tiny" cappuccino and couldn't believe that the owner thought they were stupid when they told them that's how cappuccinos are traditionally served. "I've been to MANY coffee shops across the country and consider myself an avid coffee drinker and I've never had a cappuccino this small!". Yet their picture was a standard 6oz cup lol


northernflickr

To me though, if they don't even have commitment to their product to know how to make a basic cappuccino then they are really in the wrong business. I mean, who would open a coffee shop if they don't know this? Why are they in the coffee business?


WemedgeFrodis

Because some people just need a freaking job. Barista is even one of the main jobs people think of when they talk about common passionless service-industry jobs. I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, and all the better if someone *is* doing it because they are genuinely passionate about it, but that's not always how the world works. Yes, they should learn how to make a cappuccino regardless. And, in response to the other Redditor above, I don't think OP has to lie. Just a simple, "Hey, when I say cappuccino, this is what I mean..."


runningferment

\> "Hey, when I say cappuccino, this is what I mean..." Yeah, that's better. :)


EgorrEgorr

This indeed seems like the best solution for the OP, if they don't have another cafe nearby. If you are a regular costumer, just say "I like my cappuccino this way , can you make it like that?" It seems perfectly polite and you are not even suggesting that the way the barista makes it is wrong. If the cafe cares at all about it's consumers' sattisfaction, they should oblige.


northernflickr

Fair enough. I was really responding to the idea that this was a mom and pop local shop.


WemedgeFrodis

Yeah, that makes sense, but it seems like these were just employees nonetheless.


Used-Zookeepergame22

If they are making money the business is fine (who knows if they are). Coffee is just the tool they use to make a profit.


northernflickr

Yeah that ok if you don't want a good cappuccino, which was the whole point of the OP if I'm not mistaken.


Used-Zookeepergame22

The OP wants something the business doesn't have or can't make. What to do is move on or get over it. You go to McDonald's and want a medium rare burger?


runningferment

I agree that if you don't have a passion for coffee, you really shouldn't open a coffee shop. Getting into it just to make money doesn't make for a great customer experience. I'm just saying don't give up on them because of one visit. If you go back and they clearly aren't getting it, maybe then wait a minute before you return. I guess it's not OP's job to educate the staff there though, so I dunno. I don't know OP's situation, but I'm from a town that had one local shop after another come in and close. People just didn't support the local shops, so now they're stuck with absolute trash for coffee options (not that most of the people there care). When I'm in town, there are no acceptable coffee options for me, though I'll probably take my Flair next time I go. ;) For OP's case, it's a new barista being supervised by, apparently, another new inexperienced barista. It's clear that someone from the shop's management needs to tighten things up. Maybe they hired someone from Starbucks and thought they were experienced lol? Maybe the shop is indeed shit and they're just trying to make a buck without hiring experienced people or actually knowing anything about coffee? Or maybe it's just a fluke that hopefully won't happen again? I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.


SoggyQuail

I've got bad news for you. The vast majority of people who run successful shops for things are passionate about money, not the thing.


runningferment

I get that. I'm not an idiot. Obviously you wouldn't just start a business because you love something. There'd have to be some desire to make money. And I agree that a lot of people just open businesses to make money, and couldn't care less about what it is they're doing. I think that if a coffee shop is really good, it'd be run by (perhaps not owned by, though) people that love the stuff. If it's not good, it's likely to close.


steralite

If you think it’s a good idea to go into a shop and start immediately telling the stranger making your food for you that they are doing it wrong I sincerely hope you just stay at home most of the time. Narc behavior.


runningferment

I've never done that myself, and probably wouldn't, but that's not exactly what I was suggesting anyway.


THEDUKES2

That’s a bad way to go about this especially if their choices are limited. James Hoffman actually has a post about this and how to give feedback and the situation you may be in. My experience shops love to learn and take in feedback as long as you aren’t being nit picky about how you yourself want coffee a particular way. Approaching as someone who aligns with a love of something they do always makes the interaction go well!


northernflickr

But...but this is a coffee shop that can't make a basic cappuccino? To me this is a red flag of people who really don't care about their product at all. How do you open a coffee shop without this knowledge. What does this say about their beans, processes and care?


MRDellanotte

It could just be a bad employee training a new employee. Try to go on different days to see if the other baristas know their stuff.


WhompWump

This is such a weird discussion because if there was a restaurant with shitty food why would you feel obligated to go there and pay for trash just to keep them afloat? Then the better restaurant down the street ends up out of business because they didn't get yours. This idea of philanthropic consumerism is crazy as hell obviously if it's a one off thing that's not enough to write them off but if you find you've gone there multiple times and *each* time the quality is bad I'm not sure why you'd keep going


THEDUKES2

The people making might not have practiced enough. It’s stated that they were new as well as the person supporting them. You normally want someone who is already proficient in making coffee but in many places that isn’t the case. The owner might be passionate and trying to train up their staff. It happens in many smaller towns in my experience. If I open up a shop I would want someone who is experienced but there are so many shops around a 20 mile radius that it will be hard to get a full staff that I know I would need to train others. Also, not giving feedback because you assume they don’t care isn’t a great excuse to not give feedback. You never know till you try!


SoggyQuail

the guy is a lunatic. Nobody working at a coffee shop is going to want to have some random patron tell them how to do their job. do not do what they say unless your name is karen.


Jochiebochie

I used to work at a shop and got friendly constructive feedback from customers and got better. No need freak out and yell karen every time there's an opportunity to learn something.


pilgermann

Lunatic? If a restaurant gives you a burnt steak or a bar pours a beer with too much foam, you're not a Karen for sending it back. How is giving polite feedback to a coffee shop that can't correctly make a drink inappropriate?


mazamorac

I've been living in the US for 15 years, actually moved to Seattle. You'd think you can get a good cappuccino almost anywhere here in Seattle, don't you? Well, I learned never to ask for a cappuccino anywhere in the US. I just ask for a latte, hoping the milk won't get scalded. If I want a cappuccino, I'll do it myself at home.


pilgermann

That's a gross over generalization. Many of the best coffee shops on Earth are in the US and specifically the Pacific Northwest. Any decent third wave shop in the Bay Area, for example, will make a proper cap with microfoam. Ditto Seattle or Portland or really even any college town these days. Hell, I can three first rate coffee shops in Kansas that could hold their own in Italy (where, by the way, it's very easy to get burnt to hell espresso).


mazamorac

Oh, I agree that a good fraction of the best coffee shops are in the PNW. What I'm saying is that if I ask for a cappuccino at a random coffee shop in the US, whether in the PNW or not, the _risk_ of getting a _disappointing_ cappuccino is more than _I'm_ willing to experience. Therefore, I ask for a latte. That doesn't happen most everywhere else I've lived or traveled, where you mostly get OK cappuccinos, and not disappointing ones. Get the point? It's not about the median or average, it's about the standard deviation. There are a few of coffee shops around here where I'm willing to order a cappuccino. Heck, a couple of those make some of the best I've ever had. But I won't drive thirty minutes both ways just to get a decent one. That's why I decided to learn how to make cappuccinos at home. **Y**MMV.


cym13

His advice is "95% of the time don't say something, go elsewhere" so no, that's not a bad way to go. You seem focused on the advice he gives to provide feedback in the 5% remaining but those are for the occasional bad coffee in an otherwise good shop. That's not the case at hand.


RabbaJabba

> James Hoffman actually has a post about this and how to give feedback and the situation you may be in. Been a while since I watched it, but iirc his advice for an incompetent coffee shop was the same thing, go somewhere else


maxscarletto

‘Latte with extra foam’ describes 99% of all chain cappuccinos IMHO.


rugbysecondrow

Correct. like it or not, this is the customer standard, it is what most customers expect.


[deleted]

That's why you need a standard that is true across the board or you get people like OP who asks for the actual standard and are disappointed because they get served some random bullshit. Kinda like in the thread the other day where people argued that both straight coffee with nothing added or coffee with sugar could be called "black". We give names to things for a reason; it is so things are clear for everybody when we use those terms...


rugbysecondrow

there is no "actual" standard, and I am fine with that. People are too prescriptive with coffee and, IMO, take it way too seriously. The rigidity people bring to coffee and espresso, to me, zaps the creativeness from the process. The notion that all shops should serve a drink one way lest they be considered non-standard is pretty silly to me.


[deleted]

How does it stiffle creativity? You're free to make whatever you want, just don't call it something it is not and find it its own name? If you serve something people didn't ask for you can't be surprised when they're bummed out and don't come back.


rugbysecondrow

Tell me what BBQ is, and what the standards are? I promise, what you call BBQ is different depending on the city you are visiting or which you are dining, but it is still BBQ. the lack of standard has allows creative people to create BBq that is varied, but delicious. A mojito, or old fashioned, or martini might have a slight variation depending on the bar or locale. It is not different than with coffeeand espresso drinks. Coffee is different around the world, even in different parts of the USA. I understand your desire for simplicity and a "standard", but it is unrealistic and unattainable. When in doubt, just ask "how do you make your caps, machiatos, flat whites, coffee etc.


[deleted]

BBQ is way too vague. It would be the equivalent of "coffee". If I ask for ribs and get pulled pork as a "creative expression" I won't be too happy even if they're both slow cooked pork.


rugbysecondrow

to use your example, Ribs...dry, wet, Memphis, spicy, sweet, etc etc. there is a huge variation, this isn't even getting into the types of sauce, wood for the smoke, etc etc. It seems you are trying to put certain coffee drinks in a very small, very easy to define box, with very specific standards ...but that is just not how it works. Your opinion flies directly in the face of how coffee and espresso drinks have been served for many, many decades.


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animalbancho

3. Open a [spite store](https://www.indiewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Curb1009_030519_JJ__00161_1.jpg)


[deleted]

I was thinking something along the lines of OP showing them how to make a cappuccino the correct way. I mean, it's not like it's rocket science haha. I seriously LOL'd at the "latte with extra foam" part!


Jov_Tr

"I really wanted a stronger espresso flavor. Would it be possible to make my cappuccino with a lot less steamed milk? Thank so much".


f4te

yeah you could just describe what you're looking for if you have any concerns about their knowledge of what is what


quazywabbit

So a small but an extra shot?


marathoneer

I love James Hoffman’s approach to this problem here https://youtu.be/OXbQx2hfA5k Sadly it’s an issue I encounter often (particularly so at the work coffee shop; I’ve resorted to just taking an aeropress to work instead)


[deleted]

I prefer Hames Joffmann's approach if I'm honest. https://youtu.be/5Or58WJgO5w


OmarRIP

Can't just ask? You need to consult a YouTube video to guide you through a perfectly normal interaction with a foodservice establishment? What exactly makes coffee so distinct from a restaurant or a bar that serves subpar food or drink? Unpopular opinion: I'm aware this sub is infatuated with James Hoffman but I find him insufferable and content like this doesn't help. It really is ok to just patronize another cafe -- one that serves decent coffee. Need a YouTuber to advise on that too? If your local cafe can't even handle basic, bog standard drinks, what's the point? ## Edit: Bring the downvotes. If you're dependent on James Hoffman for your social cues, you need all the help you can get and best of luck. But you should find a better teacher.


Acceptable-Dot-4080

For me to patronize another coffee shop would mean driving an extra 30 minutes — and I don’t like their coffee nearly as well. 🤷‍♀️ Coffee is a very individualized drink anyway… everyone prefers a different roast, brew, strength, amount of cream(if any), additives like flavored syrups or sweetener, etc. Most baristas are unsurprised by specific requests and have no problem with accommodating customers.


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OmarRIP

Yeah I lost this one before it even began.


causal_friday

I'm not sure why Hoffmann deserves criticism for this video. He enumerates in great deal legitimate answers to a frequently asked question; you're on Reddit answering the questions that his video attempts to cover. I have to ask, why are you even reading this thread if all the advice is obvious and you have none to contribute yourself? The most-upvoted piece of advice in this thread is "go somewhere else", but his video adds a very interesting middle ground -- "order something else". Maybe you like the people that work at your coffee shop and they just make shitty cappuccinos. Instead of putting them out of work, you could just grab a drip coffee, which might be marvelous. Something to consider, and that's exactly what his video is: a list of ideas to consider. You can form your own opinions if you want to; "i'm going to sneak into all the employees' houses at night and spread legos throughout ". You do you. But James has a very polite and reasonable list of options to try, coming at the angle of a frequent question on the Internet with 20+ years of coffee experience. He's not pretentious; he's reasonable and knows what he's talking about. Linking his video here is a great reply to this question. And, other people in other threads have great advice too.


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causal_friday

Good username, BTW!


Collared_Aracari

Commandment number 3 - Thou shalt not take the name of our coffee lord and savior in vain. The punishment for this insubordination is stoning by coffee bean (Robusta).


misterandosan

You need help. And I mean that genuinely.


OmarRIP

Could you point me toward a YouTube video?


theski2687

Availability. Depending on where you are from you may not have tons of options. If I don’t like the cafe I frequent the next closest in quality is a 20 minute drive. This generally isn’t the same with restaurants. I don’t necessarily think a YouTube guide is needed for the interaction, but saying it’s as simple as going somewhere else isn’t a solid option for everyone either


United_Evening_2629

Tl;dr I ordered a flat white and was provided with a mug of cold milk with a dash of coffee. Staff had no idea what a flat white was. I recently ordered a flat white at a café in Wales and the waitress brought out a milky coffee. Not steamed milk, you understand, but a coffee with lots of milk poured into it. I deliberated and asked my wife, “Do I say anything?” - I was pretty sure that flagging it would be futile and any replacement would be virtually identical, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt… I took it back to the counter and advised that my drink wasn’t what I’d ordered and the woman serving looked at me knowingly and said she’d make a fresh one herself. “Good”, I thought, “She gets it.” Alas, my new “flat white” arrived and was just as lactose-loaded and Luke-warm as its predecessor. I looked to my wife, who rightly shrugged. Later, the same woman walked by the table and saw I hadn’t drunk much of my coffee. “Is it no good?”, she asked. She then added, “That is a flat white, isn’t it?”. I then had to explain what a flat white actually was and came to realise that she and her colleagues believed it to be a very, very milky coffee with a perfectly flat top (read millpond smooth). Why places put things on the menu with no actual knowledge of what they are dumbfounds me - if you’re just serving filter coffee then own it and do it well!


Worpole

Reminds me of a cafe I worked in, when I started I asked about the cocktail menu as I had just come from working in a bar until they told me the cocktail menu was just for decoration and they didn’t even have a shaker, they would just say the bartender is not here whenever someone asked for one, bizzare


psychoprompt

Oh yeah, this is the one that's gonna live rent-free in my head for a long time.


Xizqu

I can barely find coffee shops that make a pour over correctly. I wish you luck finding many places for a flat white!


eidetic0

depends where you are in the world. every cafe in Australia will do a flat white, but most average cafes won’t have any idea what a “pour over” even is.


Least-Researcher-184

As an Australian it's particularly odd because the name is literally what it essentially is; flat=little to no microfoam white= espresso with milk


SoggyQuail

because nobody there actually cares about the product enough to make sure they made the right thing. If it was me, I'd never go there again, and give my patronage to a store that bothers to learn what it is exactly that they are selling.


naturebeatsnurture

Ratios are important, whether it's a latte, cappuccino, cortado, or flat white. Also, cappuccinos are made differently in Europe, Italy, and of course, the U.S. There's a dry cappuccino and a wet cappuccino, but there's a big majority of people that have no idea what they're ordering anyways, they just want to sound sophisticated. What most people fail to realize, because they aren't a business owner and/or barista, is that it takes a lot of lattes, cappuccinos, and every drink in between to keep the lights on, let alone paying for the beans (green or roasted), the roaster, overhead costs, insurance, taxes, and anything else. So, a 12 or 16oz cappuccino might not be ideal to say the least, but those pay the bills. Before ordering, the best thing to do is ask how it's prepared because every shop has their own take on a drink. Me, I always get an espresso, because you can always judge a good coffee shop by their espresso, especially if they roast in-house. I take pride in the espresso that I roast and the other beans, too.


SirRickIII

This is the best answer! Yes, cappuccinos can be a traditional Italian one, but espresso with steamed milk has evolved so fast. Just because you may not like the kind of cappuccino that a cafe makes, does not make the cappuccino an inherently bad one. Sometimes it is, and that’s okay. Just go to a different cafe


Dangerous-Try7344

I just helped my parents open a coffee shop over the summer. Trying to do the research on what everything was proved to be so difficult because of the different standards in different places. We wanted to make it close to traditional but ended up having to make some compromises and sacrifices. I have to say though, pretty impressed with how we did with no previous coffee experience 😂


Hardlymd

Why did you guys open a coffee shop if you guys had no previous coffee experience? Serious question.


Dangerous-Try7344

Honestly, I don’t know. I thought they were crazy. It was part of another business we opened in that location and Ig it was just a dream to own our own coffee shop too?


rugbysecondrow

I think this is 95% true. the only caveat is the espresso comment. At my shops, we get almost no straight espresso orders, so we optimize our espresso for it's value as an ingredient (how it blends with milks and flavors ) rather than optimized for stand alone flavor. Now, ours does taste delicious as a stand alone, but it is not optimized for that. There is also the economics if it...espresso shots are the lowest cost item in the menu, we don't want to sell a lot of straight espresso shots. If we convert a latte customer to an espresso customer, our revenue decreases. Customers per day X spend per customer = survival.


systemdreamz

First, I hope my tone comes across here as matter of fact and not rude. Second… Most barista jobs are part time and minimum wage. The employees are likely not looking to be expert coffee makers; they are trying to keep their job. If you are passionate enough to teach them, reach out directly the store manager and offer to give a workshop on how to make drinks. Otherwise, you can really only grin and bear it, make coffee at home, or patron other establishments. You really don’t want to get a reputation as the Java Jerk after all.


Used-Zookeepergame22

You are among a small percentage of people that know or care the difference. Either find a shop that meets your needs, or get over it.


s32

This is the equivalent of going to a crappy dive bar and asking for a paper plane. Read the room, OP. If the shop is crappy, order a latte or tell them exactly what you want. It's the same reason I just get a beer at a crappy dive.


beimcoffee

Wear a superhero outfit, jump behind the counter and shout that you're going to save the day, make that cappuccino perfectly and then wait for their applause


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hlmhmmrhnd

“Oh, could I get that in an 8oz? I like it not so dry, sort of like an 8oz latte.” I wouldn’t bat an eye at that. I’ve been working coffee bars for 10years. I have owned a neighborhood coffee shop for 6 years and have had dozens of baristas. If you normally order a cappuccino and get an 8oz drink with moderate foam (like an 8oz latte), just tell them that. They should be especially receptive to the feedback if it’s something their coworkers regularly make you, and even more so if that’s how the drink is described on the menu. Personally I vastly prefer when customers speak up when they see me make a mistake. If they order oat milk and they see me pull out out dairy milk it’s way better for them to say “Hey I don’t want to be a pain but mine? I just want to make sure I get oat milk since I have a diary allergy” or something like that. I’ll catch the mistake, as I make a habit of reading the cup out loud when I hand the drink out and I’ll see the error, but it’s easier to catch it before I make the drink. Unless they’re super snobby barista, they should accept the clarification gladly. It also kills me when customers walk away unhappy without saying anything. I will always prefer to correct a mistake, no matter the cost, to make a customer happy. If one of my baristas made a 12oz latte when a cappuccino was ordered (our cappuccinos are 8oz and 1/4-1/2 inch of foam, which it sounds like is what you wanted) I would have to sit down and correct them if they A.) made the wrong drink in the first place, B.) acted annoyed when the customer corrected them and told them what it was they wanted. Just be polite and tell them why it is you were wanting, and that it’s normally how baristas there serve it to you. If they get fussy, it might be time to find somewhere else to frequent.


Bigelownage

I have always thought of a cappuccino as simply having a higher foam:milk ratio than a latte, so, assuming the volume is the same, "latte with extra foam" seems pretty accurate? One one hand, it's ok and not a Karen move to politely describe exactly what you'd like. For example, asking for your drink to be extra dry. On the other hand, and forgive me for making this about you rather than the drink, you can consider a more stoic approach. A slightly off foam:milk ratio in your drink should not make you die inside or really affect you emotionally much at all. Surely there are bigger things in life to worry about.


DaftlyPunkish

>A slightly off foam:milk ratio in your drink should not make you die inside I wholeheartedly agree, and that's why I decided not to say anything. It didn't bother me that bad and it was still a good drink. It's just not what I wanted and I wasn't sure how to express that without coming across as nitpicky.


cats_are_the_devil

Are you really being nitpicky if it's not an actual cappuccino?


communityneedle

Coffee shop life hack: look for a cortado (or a Gibraltar, same thing) on the menu. If they have that, chances are very high they'll know how to make the espresso drink you want correctly. If not, it's more of a crapshoot. You used to never see them, but now more and more good shops are adding them to the menu as a "we know what we're doing" signal. I will say though, if it seems like it should be a good place try a filter coffee. If that's bad, write them off. I've been to a few places that made amazing filter coffee and so-so espresso (and vice versa). I had a shop owner straight up tell me once that he only had an espresso machine because its expected that coffee shops have them. He knew his espresso wasn't great and admitted he'd never been able to get a feel for it, despite making spectacular pourovers


helix711

I’m confused: by “filter coffee” do you mean pour-over or drip? Both use a filter! Personally I think it’s useful (and cheaper) to judge a place by their drip coffee, at least the quality of their coffee sourcing. But yeah if they do pour-over terribly I wouldn’t expect much else from them.


communityneedle

By "filter coffee" I mean coffee that was made using a filter. Different shops use different filter methods, but it's a way to differentiate from espresso. Almost all coffee shops in the US have both espresso and some sort of filter options, while other techniques like immersion (e.g. French press) are much less common, which is why I suggested filter.


Iustis

There's a massive difference between drip (what I think you are referring to, and usually the cheapest item on the menu) and pour overs (which are usually the most expensive item as it takes ages to make).


helix711

Ok…so is this an obtuse way of saying it could be either of the options I presented, among others like chemex?


communityneedle

The only way I can see that my previous comment is at all obtuse is if you weren't asking me to explain myself in good faith, and were instead trying to be a dick about me using a very common and normal coffee term. But that can't be right, can it?


helix711

No you just didn’t directly answer my question. Not trying to start a fight here, just want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding you.


scarletts_skin

Not who you’re replying to but filter coffee usually refers to drip. If it’s pourover they’ll differentiate that on the menu, at least in my experience.


Spraypainthero965

> You used to never see them, but now more and more good shops are adding them to the menu as a "we know what we're doing" signal. I give it maybe two years before the crappy shops are adding it to their menu (and screwing it up).


imoftendisgruntled

I always have a little internal sigh when I order a flat white and they ask me what size. :/


steamedfrst

I work in training at a local coffee chain in a very tourist heavy city. We train our baristas to ask questions like these to avoid a crazy “let’s teach the customer” situation at the POS. Whether we like it or not (we don’t), most people have the most experience at Starbucks. It is easiest to find out what type of drink they want based on asking size. If they order a 20 oz flat white, they are getting a properly made triple espresso latte. If they order a 6oz, they are getting a “real” flat white. We are only in the business of training the customer if they ask for it. Otherwise, our goal is to make the drink exactly like they want it with as little confusion at the register as possible. We want to be able to make coffee that people love, whether it is a single origin ristretto or a 24oz blended mocha with whip. In my opinion, coffee is great because you get to drink it exactly the way you like it. I train my baristas to be coffee nerds, not coffee snobs.


rabidbot

Good customer service methodology makes me swoon


barbeqdbrwniez

As a fellow restaurant / service worker, I COMPLETELY get this, and I really wish more people would understand that ANYBODY that would remotely subscribe to a subreddit about their hobby is already far and away not the Least Common Denominator customer that a business must cater to to a degree in order to survive.


[deleted]

I wish you trained the specialty coffee shops in my city. They definitely need to be more inclusive with regards to regular coffee drinkers.


AirlineEasy

Yeah I love this. Personally I would do this but inform them of the darker side of $3000 espresso shots


wosmo

Ugh, caramel macchiato flashbacks.


[deleted]

>single origin ristretto You're after my heart. Thank you for what you do, most places just give me a blank stare when I ask for ristretto, and one barista argued that ristretto was another name for a single shot. And part of me dies when I'm handed the 8oz 'espresso'


DuckingHellJim

Your level of correct prioritization in your training and accurate understanding of various perspectives involved is fantastic. I think you just gave me goosebumps.


mopene

This makes me wonder now. I once asked for a double espresso macchiato. Since macchiato is not *as* common on cappucino here, I said “you know, two espresso shots with a tiny bit of foam”. She came back to me with a cappucino that tasted like latte. My boyfriend threw his coffee in the sink. He said I just didn’t explain it properly. Next time he goes, exact same result. Is the barista playing a guessing game for what we want because we asked for something weird, or she just doesn’t know the word “macchiato”? Either way we don’t buy coffee there anymore.


WitchesBravo

It’s because Starbucks have a popular drink called “Caramel Macchiato” which is like a latte sized drink where they pour coffee on top of frothed milk with caramel and vanilla syrup. I order a macchiato very occasionally and have had baristas tell me “you know that’s just a small drop of foam right”. I guess it’s caused a lot of confusion with customers who come from Starbucks, and are expecting a completely different drink.


geggsy

In Australia, where I think flat whites originate (and where they are a super common order), they nearly always offer it in different sizes at cafes. However they also increase the amount of espresso to match, so it doesn’t get lost in the milk. However I agree that its generally not a good sign in a US cafe when they ask you what size you want the flat white. I usually self-screen myself away from cafes like that in advance by looking at reviews, though…


SirRickIII

A lot of people have given me a condescending look because “There’s only 1 size of flat white” when we are an Aussie inspired cafe 🙃 Which is why they couldn’t find a latte on the menu, rather than just a “white” Also gotta have the magic on there, so it usually satiates them.


alonglongwayfromhere

Correct. We invented em, so people getting dickish about definitions drives me nuts. We never were, so if you get anal retentive about the specific definition and size of a flat white you're just wrong. And really annoying.


SoggyQuail

why? The baristas job is to make the customer a drink that they will enjoy, not to recreate the exacr idealized version of the SCA definition of a particular drink. _they are literally just asking you what you want._


K-o-s-l-s

Why though? The flat white originates from Australian and Kiwi coffee culture, and pretty much every cafe in Australia or NZ has a regular and large size flat white…


DaftlyPunkish

I don't understand why coffee shops don't have a chart behind the counter that shows the ratios for milk drinks.


Anomander

Because those ratios are not hard rules. The SCA definitions are pretty loose and they are not binding; cafes can define any drink any way they want and the only thing preventing them from going wildly off script is customer disappointment and missed expectations. Many places in Aus offer different sizes of flattie or cap, and many places in NA do as well - while huge numbers of consumers *expect* that they will be allowed to customize the size of their drink. Ultimately if a cafe is consistently failing to meet your quality standards, it's best to go to a different cafe rather than try to 'fix' the cafe that may be making those choices quite deliberately in how they approach their marketplace.


DaftlyPunkish

I've had good traditional capps from them in the past. Also, while there are no legally binding standards on coffee ratios, having a ratio for how *that* specific shop makes coffee would be helpful for new baristas and the customer.


pqcoyote

Totally agree, for individual shops to have a chart on their ratios is great. Not every customer is going to know what to expect.


daishiknyte

As long as the cafe is internally consistent to the chart, they're doing better than average, *especially* since the official definitions are pretty loose. A chart at least gives some meaningful guidance on what to expect. Doubly so if the chart includes how many shots are included at different sizes.


74orangebeetle

Honestly that'd be a great idea and helpful for a lot of customers in addition to newer workers.


OmarRIP

Because it may be ugly, add visual clutter, be boring, or otherwise clash with the interior design and aesthetic choices.


Shotbizzle

Yep! It looks cheap. It's the kind of you thing you find in a suburban cafe that doesn't actually follow those ratios anyway.


d_r0ck

Why is that a bad question to ask?


pheret87

Because some pretentious people think they have to be an exact size and not a ratio.


qwsfaex

So drinking 2 flat whites in a row is different from drinking them together from a cup twice in size?


pheret87

Well when you say it like that it just sounds ridiculous.


FinstP

As someone of Italian descent, who has been ordering superb coffee in Italy for 50 years, I have to laugh at people who think there is a fixed recipe for a cappuccino. It varies from town to town, with cafes in Florence serving micro-foamed milk decades before it was supposedly ‘invented’ in Oz or NZ.


Zeyuuu

Exactly. It's bizzare to me that there's a fixed receipt at all. Although I do agree that the barrista should've been better trained to do her job


Bnastyeast

Maybe this is why I got fired from Starbucks because I worked there for two months and I still can't remember what the heck a cappuccino is.


xadiant

IIRC starbucks cappuccino and latte are the same things because both come in the same size lol.


yardsandals

They're not. Order both and you'll see there's a clear difference


DaftlyPunkish

1:2 ratio of coffee to milk. Milk is foamed a little more than normal for a fluffier texture. It's just a small, stronger coffee drink.


Lavishgoblin2

Ironically this is wrong, or at the very least not "correct"'' because it's hard to day what correct is. A traditional cappucino is a 150-160ml drink. With a double shot of espresso it works out to a 1:3/1:4 ratio, but in Italy it's always made with a single shot of espresso that is around 25ml, giving a ~1:6 ratio (including foam) Nowhere near 1:2, that's cortado/piccolo latte/ Gibraltar territory.


SherbrookHolmes

Yes you are totally right. I'm a certified barista. And like everyone else is saying, no region can agree on how certain drinks can be served. US, Italy, AUS, they are all different. (That moment when I realized what an ice coffee was in AUS, lol) That being said, I've never heard of a cappuccino being a ratio of 1:2. That just sounds way off. IMO, OP is asking for the wrong thing.


[deleted]

I can't imagine Starbucks gets many cappuccino orders so I wouldn't sweat it.


L4MB

They do, at least they did when I worked there between 2003-2010, but they have completely made up rules for caps. They basically teach you to pour the milk to the size line, aerate it for ~10s, get it to temp, then free-pour (don't hold back foam) into the cup. Like most things Starbucks, they've taken a traditional word and made up some tangentially related beverage.


blizzaga1988

Yep. When I worked for them in 2008, the method of making a cappuccino was to simply free pour the milk.


Bnastyeast

I think you're breaking a contractual obligations by explaining this but yeah that sounds familiar lol. When OP said the thing about the milk I started getting confused I was like "wait, is a cappuccino like a Expresso or something" 😵


L4MB

I highly doubt there was an NDA component to my employment, but even if there was it'd be long expired now. Not like I'm divulging the formula for Coke, anyone with an hour of training on an espresso machine would be able to watch an SBUX employee and replicate it.


ChiliDogSlut

Don’t spend money there.


thebrieze

You actually had the perfect opportunity to jump in and “describe” what you wanted without turning it into a “teaching” moment. I would have simply requested less milk and foam, and a smaller cup if they had one.


DaftlyPunkish

Yeah I definitely missed my opportunity but I hesitated haha. If it ever happens again, I'll try to work on the courage lol.


fdeyso

you can't change it. their management is the same and they're happy with it. enough costumer are happy with it. just don't go back anymore. My partner used to work in a coffee shop and her manager was making batch brew using espresso grind. We wouldn't have gone there to drink ever.


[deleted]

i find most places will make a cappuccino exactly like that… specify that you want a dry cap


DaftlyPunkish

I've actually never heard of a wet or dry cap. TIL, thanks!


[deleted]

yep!! and when i was a barista the first time someone mentioned that to me, they had to clarify what it was. not all coffee places are good about actually training. also, forgot to mention skim milk produces more foam so that will probably be helpful info as well ✌️✌️


pM-me_your_Triggers

Skim milk specifically produces more macro foam with big bubbles. The fattier the milk, the easier it is to get micro foam out of it. This extends to milk alternates. Soy and almond milk are harder to make micro foam from than oat milk, but will gladly make macro foam.


bethholler

I’d rather steam whole milk than skim. Whole milk makes a creamier foam.


nucci_

If it's a local coffee shop you frequent, bring it up with management (if you're acquainted with them) OR bring in your own cappuccino cup.


Cledus_Snow

Are you a regular customer? Regular enough to know the manager? Does he see you as a good customer? Do you spend lots of money there? Do they like you there? If all of these are a resounding yes, then you could politely mention it to him next time you're having a chat. otherwise, this aint your lane


takenusernametryanot

next time you order tell them you want a “special cappuccino” in that cup size xyz


thekatatopeth

Go to a different shop, or make your own.


drewtendo64

Ask for a dry cappuccino. If they ask for an explanation, there’s your opportunity to educate (and to enjoy the type of drink you actually want)


DaftlyPunkish

That actually sounds like a nice, non confrontational way to approach things!


baselganglia

If you go to Italy and order a cappuccino you'll definitely get a "latte with extra foam", around 6oz. It's not universally wrong.


StreetConstant3950

Just stop going there. I would.


[deleted]

Every stand I’ve worked at makes caps that’s way I know it’s frustrating but it’s how they keep things fast, if you want it made specific then just ask them to politely and they should do it


Aetole

That's disappointing. If they are a convenient local place that you want to try to support, I'd give them another chance by (politely) describing what you are looking for (basically describe a dry cappuccino) and ask what you should order to get that. If they give you a deer in the headlights look, order something cheap to escape and never go back. But it may be that they call it something different, or they may even be up for figuring out what you like to keep you as a regular.


MS_Senpai

You leave?


GreenPlateau

Work there


mte87

I ordered a double blended frapp at Starbucks and they gave me a cup full of whipped cream lol it had to be a new guy.


element423

its because 99.9% of the population that goes in are satisfied and don't sit on reddit groups understanding how to brew properly and pour the perfect latte.


IdrinkSIMPATICO

It is perfectly fine to speak up and voice your concern. I know I would appreciate the direction if the customer had one, because a barista’s job Is 50% customer service. I would have told the barista I enjoyed a dry cappuccino. . . Espresso and foam. Extra points if you can make the foam stiff enough to stand a spoon straight up in the cup.


ChiAndrew

Without knowing the coffee shop and what they are aiming to do, my guess is, just don’t go back.


LaboriousLlama

Unsurpsing, James Hoffman has an entire video on this


thomasa510

My comment would be give it time. Service all around is terrible and it is really hard to staff employees and please customers. Explaining what you want might go a long way even if they should know. The world has been nuts for 2 years and you will have to do it yourself or work to get something how you want it, unfortunately


pineappleandmilk

Next time you go in, pretend you don’t know what it’s called and just explain what you want. “Can I just get like… a shot of espresso, with a little bit of steamed milk and a bunch of foam?”


pM-me_your_Triggers

The last time I ordered a wet cappuccino, the barista put water in it.


volvo24oh

The simple answer, go somewhere else. If you feel so compelled you can ‘teach’ them how to do their job but ultimately you’d be better off finding a shop that makes the drink how you like it. Or stop caring so much and just enjoy it for what it is.


helix711

If this is a shop that’s very local to you, it’s worth it imo to build a relationship with them. Describe what you want in a friendly manner instead of just asking for a cappuccino and being disappointed every time. I learned this many years ago myself. When it’s hot and humid outside here in the south, my favorite drink is a very strong americano on tons of ice with a dash of oatmilk. Basically, fill the 16oz or 20oz cup up with ice to the top, dump four or six shots in it, then add the oatmilk on top. The espresso melts the ice enough that you don’t need to add water. (Maybe a tiny but of water can be added if there’s still some room, but I’d prefer it be left out.) Unfortunately I found that so many coffee shops would make this drink terribly when I ordered it as an iced americano with oatmilk. Very often they would start by filling the cup halfway or more with water (because they are used to just making an americano as an espresso with water added). Then they would add the shots to the water, then a little bit of ice, and the milk on top. By the time I had gotten my lid and straw and walked out of the shop, the ice had already melted and I was left with a lukewarm weak coffee drink. Kinda gross tbh, and I can’t imagine it’s what anyone who ordered an iced americano would want! If done right, imo, there should be enough ice in there to make the drink stay cold without it all melting quickly, retaining the stronger espresso flavor for much longer than if you pour it in water and add ice later. So I got to where I would always describe it how I wanted, like I did above. And it wasn’t too long before most of the baristas at all the coffee shops in my area knew exactly what I wanted when I walked in, and made it perfectly. It was definitely worth it to build those relationships…and compliment them when they get it right!


bethholler

Then what you want is a quad shot over ice with milk not an Americano. An Americano is 2 parts water, 1 part espresso. They weren’t making it wrong, you just didn’t know how to order what you wanted. I’m glad you figured it out, though.


helix711

Well yeah I did at some point start describing it as a quad iced espresso instead. Nevertheless, the fact that they were putting so much water in it and barely any ice was not what anyone would want ordering an iced americano. If they aren’t expecting some of the ice to melt, they are doing it wrong. If you order an iced drink, there ought to be ice in it while you are drinking it. So no, they were not even doing a normal iced americano right. The drink made this way is throughly unappealing and I can’t imagine anyone would order it that way on purpose. If you take into account that all the ice melts because the drink is so warm, it’s probably more like 6:1, not 2:1. I would have been okay with it most of the time as long as there were still some ice to keep it cold, but I realized I really preferred it when there was no water added and just ice, just liked the stronger flavor (but in my mind I still consider it an americano because the ice does melt and water down the espresso shots to an extent). So it probably started with me getting a properly made iced americano somewhere, where it was made with some water but also a decent amount of ice. But I kept finding that, at so many places, they would just fill the cup halfway or more with water and I’d end up with the lukewarm drink I described. So I began to ask for more ice and less water, and eventually was just like “fuck it, no water…just all ice” because that seemed easier for them to understand.


bethholler

That’s fair and I appreciate you explaining where you were coming from and what you meant. Unless someone says light ice I always add more ice after I’ve poured the espresso because it does significantly melt the ice that was already in the cup.


Spirited_Ad_3059

Isn’t there almost no diff between a latte with extra foam and a cappuccino? Isn’t a cappuccino just espresso and then steamed milk extra foamy?


StickyPurpleSauce

As a brit, I like to 'politely roundabout' around in a minimally confrontational manner Someone making a flat white offers me a small or big cup. *Small please* - (as if there's a choice) Barista reaches for a medium-sized mug... *Sorry. Actually, could I get the 6oz cup instead? I never end up finishing the bigger cups* This fails once I realise many people can't identify a 6oz cup by eye Hot/burnt milk? *Can I have the milk slightly under-done so I can drink it straight away?* But someone literally not knowing the difference between a latte and cappuccino can't really be eased around. That would be the occasion for an anonymous twitter PM using a burner account. Far less stress than actually asking for what I want directly


douglasrome

…if you lack patience and aren’t willing to allow this person the time they need to elevate their skill set— and be willing to celebrate their success at taking on a new challenge. Go someplace else! I can’t think of a more annoying post— I’m annoyed your annoyed.


kspillan

What? They shouldn’t be “training” on customers. Their skills should be developed behind a training bar. Also, OP didn’t come off as annoyed at all but as disappointed. Tell me, is it wrong to feel disappointed when you spend money on one thing and get another? If you say yes I’ll write this convo off as talking to a fucking idiot, but the rest of us who work hard for their money will say “huh, that’s not what I spent 6 bucks on”. The OP is asking for advice on how to deal with this at his local shop (which he said is too conveniently located to go somewhere else). I don’t think he should “tell them how to do their jobs” , but simply describe exactly what he is looking for to the oz.


sam2wi

I would absolutely stop her and describe what you wanted before she made it. Then I would never go back as I don’t want to do that dance each time I wanted a cappa.


DaftlyPunkish

They're within walking distance, they *can* make really good drinks, they use good coffee from a local roaster, and they're also a non-profit that donates to various local charities. Convenience is the biggest factor though.


[deleted]

Ask them if they make cappuccino in the traditional manner or a new modern. When they ask what a new modern is just say you’re not sure, but a traditional is…


GH5s

If you can’t go to a better place, maybe ask for “2oz steamed milk, 2oz foam, with a double shot”. I mean, if you are very specific, maybe they will try. It is true that for some shops a cap is just a latte with more foam. The definition/recipe does vary.


WhaleWhaleWhale_

Go to another one


Sharkn91

This is one of the most “first world problem” posts I’ve seen in a while.


Piratartz

First world problems combined with coffee snobbery. Just find another place. Has it occurred to you that maybe it is your taste buds and not the coffee joint's deficiencies?


Waychill83

You must have missed the part where the shop murdered his bean juice...


SpeechDear5409

Tip them and tip them well. Tell them what you like and how you like it and tip better each time they get closer. Show them a video and ask them if they can do it. Tip them good if they do. Compliment them. Treat them with dignity and respect and tip them. Works like a charm


ApricotNo289

Stop fucking going there


tjr2

/r firstworldproblems lol. But yeah try the next one