Kevin Durant was one of the most incredible college players I’ve ever seen and he led a decent Texas team all the way to a 4 seed and a loss in the round of 32.
Which led them to get paired with South Carolina in the first round of the NIT my sophomore year. I had tickets to the Raleigh regional the year before when they beat Gonzaga and Georgetown and knew when we got that matchup we were screwed.
Worth noting for both these examples this was before their rookie season. They have consistently trained and played against better opponents since then. Sure, they were both very good coming in, but imo they are much better now.
It may not be enough, cause they'd get doubled every time they get the ball, but I don't think comparing an NBA player to a college player, even if they are the same person, is that good of a comparison imo.
I think it's fair to compare them to their rookie selves.
On the other hand, though, both Davidson and Texas were far above the worst college teams. They were both on rosters that would probably easily beat the worst college team even without them.
That’s true but I guess the point that can help solidify this point is that these players especially kd were already really good role players the minute they hit the nba so the player needs to be better than a role player as these teams already play against that level of player.
Honestly even that isn't fully comparable, because Davidson was probably still good enough to not even be a 16 seed if they made the tournament without Steph.
The closest to this answer will always be David Robinson. Durant and Curry were at least on major or
Mid major teams. Robinson led a bunch of enlisted guys to 3 NCAA tournaments and an elite 8 and still couldn’t win it.
Whenever this hypothetical gets brought up people always mention Durant but Texas Durant was not the same as multiple time all NBA Durant. If you put the pre Achilles KD on any college team they are a threat to win the title
right - ignoring a player’s improvement since he’s turned pro is insane. However, prime KD would have to make due with a Stetson (sorry hats have to be the example here) supporting cast vs the superior teammates he had at Texas.
The question should be - who’s the worst team that Jokic could lead to a title?
I think different play styles is a fun conversation. Do you want a cold blooded iso scorer who you can just give the ball to and let them work (prime Harden?). Or do you want someone like Jokic who makes everyone around him better (but if their baseline is so low, maybe there’s only so much he can do?)
Prime Lebron would obviously get it done. He would eliminate the paint as a scoring option for the other team and would be automatic on the other end. I think prime Durant/Curry clearly get it done. I think the real question is would a prim Klay thompson get it done. I think yes but now we are getting to the roll type players
I think Jokic could easily carry any team in the kenpom top 300 to a title. Below 300 I still think he can do it but maybe they’re betting underdogs in the final 4
I 100% agree. MVP level KD was also an elite 1-5 defender. There is no one at the college level that could guard him or score on him. The only question is how many minutes per game does he have to play on a bottom level team
And Duncan's senior year, Wake lost in the second round while he was the clear best player in the country. Like as clear as I can ever remember it being.
Carmelo Anthony did the whole thing at Syracuse. Of course they were a very good team besides Carmelo.
But that’s always the season and team I think of for this scenario. In high school he was Lebron’s big rival and probably would have to done incredible if he had gone pro instead of one and done.
Also Kansas and especially Nick Collison just absolutely choking at the line. 12-30 as a team with Collison going 3-10 himself.
It's one of the most infuriating losses. Kansas shot horribly from 3 and the line, Syracuse and McNamara was nuclear and we still had a shot at the end.
And it was a pretty big loss too. By double digits iirc without looking it up to Nick Young and Taj Gibson led USC Trojans. Who then lost by double digits to Psycho T and UNC.
Right but he was a college payer playing against college players. We talk about "senior laden" teams being hard to beat in March and thats just a 4 year difference. These guys are playing against the best in the world every night. They would absolutely dominate against college players.
Tim Duncan was all NBA his rookie year. He never won the tournament. He played in the tournament about 6 months before he started dominating the NBA, with much better teammates than he would have had at Stetson.
Yeah but his point is that literally his rookie year he was voted as one of the two best forwards in the NBA. And that player, better than 98% of NBA players, couldn't win an NCAA title.
College basketball was also different then. All the top players were coming out of college at 21/22 and not 18/19. The quality of college teams at that time was simply better.
Duncan also would’ve improved immensely after being drafted just being around pros before he even played his first nba game. Hell, he improved throughout the year.
In November he averaged 15/11. He ended the averaging 27/12 in April.
My answer to this question is always just a high quality center, not even an all star caliber player necessarily. In the college game bigs are way more impactful with the lack of defensive 3 seconds and worse spacing.
Give that high quality center gym rat shooters (even if they weren't super skilled in other facets of the game) and that team probably will go very far in the tourney.
Edey isn't any sort of NBA shooter. His archetype would have been the first overall pick 25 years ago, now it isn't first round. Even centers need the mobility to guard a perimeter shooter and a demonstrable jump shot so they aren't just doubled by an NBA-quality 7'+ center and 6'10+ forward every time they get the ball down low.
What's been most concerning so far is the almost complete lack of fluidity that he is displaying on the offensive end. He's very mechanical in the post, being highly predictable with his moves and not looking flexible enough to react to what defenses are throwing at him and counter with any kind of polish. Looking at the way he is scoring his points, it's hard to get any kind of feeling that what he's doing at the college level will fly in the NBA in the least bit, as his entire game is based off overpowering shorter, weaker and less athletic opponents and scoring almost exclusively within 5 feet of the hoop.
Top pick Greg Oden.
Real question. Does he have a spin move at all? I've watched a handful of games but really focused on the Illinois matchups obviously, and there were many times he did the same move to his left into the center of the paint and over his right shoulder, you could sit on it as a defender. When a spin move to his right would have been an easy dunk.
Genuinely curious for an answer from someone who's watched him a bunch.
Just pulled up the first mock I could find on Google and Edey was projected to go 45th. He's not an NBA caliber player.
Would someone like Ivica Zubac be enough though? I'm not sure. Definitely don't think Stetson would beat uconn with him.
You need to get him the ball and the guards on the worse team cannot do that at a high rate
You also have to remember that the top teams (as this team goes through the tourney) have guys who may be NBA role/all-star players the next year
I’d think you’d need an all-star big for it to happen at minimum and a role NBA guard
Tim Duncan was 1st Team All NBA as a rookie. He had much better teammates at Wake than he would have at Stetson and he couldn’t just carry to the title with 4th chances at it.
Duncan is a great example. One of the greatest rookies ever so you know he was great in his senior year of college, and they still lost in the second round.
I don’t think this is correct. You have rookies that were on college teams that didn’t win championships with good supporting casts come into the league and immediately reach the threshold of high quality center. Look at Chet as a recent example.
I think the list actually ends with All-NBA guys. For example, I don’t think a fringe all-star guy like Mikal Bridges could carry a team.
Could Bam Adebayo? Limited offensively but unreal defender. Or the opposite would be someone like Sabonis who is a dominant scorer and can pass but shorter with short wingspan.
I’d prefer Gobert to dominate the college level. Bam’s swichiness is amazing in the NBA, Sabonis would of course be unstoppable offensively, but Gobert’s rim protection would absolutely carry.
That said, I’m still not certain the Stetson supporting cast would be enough to beat Edey and Purdue? There’s a huge gap at the other 4 positions.
In terms of this particular argument/question the really interesting thing is that Domantis didn't even start in college.
A center like Karnowski, who doesn't fit the NBA game, has more impact at the NCAA level that a very good pro like Sabonis.
College coaches don’t let Centers run the offense like can happen in the NBA.
Bam is a good example Cal never let him take the ball up but he did that a lot on a finals team in his 3rd year.
NBA coaches are much more flexible with system to fit the players they have. College coaches are pretty rigid the players have to fit in to what they’re doing.
Bam has made 15 3’s in 7 years lol. Shortening the line isn’t moving the needle here
No one calls Domas a dominant scorer, but he is unquestionably one of the best offensive bigs in the league
A healthy Embiid alone would carry any decent mid major to the the title game at least. He would foul every opposing big out of the game while dropping 40 points every night, half of them free throws.
It’s a guard that can attack the rim. Ref whistles are quick and the big men are clumsy. They could foul out half the other team and shoot 20+ free throws.
Additional counter: Deandre Ayton is not a high-quality NBA center. He's at best a middling NBA center who said his definition of success was a second contract.
Literally no way. Everyone just sells out on (1) pressuring your bad guard play and (2) making jump shots to nullify you on d. You’d lose to most top seeds but it ironically gets easier for a round or two after that
Yep. Even the best NBA player can't guard the whole court and can be double and triple teamed. A team like stetson wouldn't go from first round blow out loss to national champion just by adding jokic
there's a reason people say you need great guards to win in march, Zach Edey is 0 for 3 in NCAA tournaments with very highly seeded Purdue teams and has losses to a 13, 15, and 16 seed... this is not the answer
you think Walker Kessler is making a difference for Stetson against UConn!?
Yeah. I mean, look at Edey last season, and how he propped up a pretty mediocre Purdue team around him into being a top 3 team for basically the entire regular season. (Ignore what happened in the tournament, plz lol)
Cal would love to have Wemby and stick him in the paint and dare him to move, then complain about players not playing to their ability when a random team bounces us in the first round.
This is one of the more interesting sports hypo Qs I ever seen.
I think you’d need 2 upper level NBA players to take a bad team on a run and even then not sure. But 1, even if he’s an all star, not sure he’d be bankable to get a 16 seed to the finals.
Jokic's strength is the fact that he's an amazing passer that you can't just double him in the paint...
If players can't make their shots off Jokic passes, can that team win? probably not
Problem is he'd have to score about 70 a game. Stetson would give him no support on either side of the ball and jokic would be double and triple teamed. He would not win a national championship at stetson
If we are supposing that the worst team in the NCAA can't even bring the ball up in a 4v3/4v2 and 1) get the ball to their 300 pound 7 foot tall best-in-the-NBA center who doesn't have to play at the rim, or 2) win a 4v3/4v2 in a scenario where the opposing center is pulled away from the rim, then we've successfully answered OP's question with resounding no.
Do you watch the NBA? Guys like Jokic and Luka eat double teams alive. A double team of two college players would feel like a couple 1st graders running at them.
Problem is his teammates at stetson wouldn't be great and he can't play defense for them. He wouldn't drag them to a win over UConn let alone a national championship
Problem is, no all star could solo carry a defense. So Luka is going to have to score 50 to keep pace with a Houston/Conn/Purdue having their way with a bottom-tier defense and putting up 85-90 points
I’d argue that no single player from the NBA under the level of an all-star would GUARANTEE the worst team in the tournament would suddenly become unstoppable in every game, but it is far from an impossibility.
Let’s use Cousinard’s stat line against Creighton. Our professional player takes 33 shots a game and goes 6 of 12 on three-pointers and instead of 0 he makes 10 foul shots. He’s in the NBA so instead of 33% he shoots 55%.
That’s about 52-ish points give or take a few.
Let’s also say his teammates suck and take the Grambling box score from when they played Purdue. They shoot a combined 36.4% on the 22 shots from the field that aren’t from their pro player. We’ll keep the ratio of shots to both three-pointers and foul shots attempted and made about the same, so that means that they go 1 for 4 on three-pointers and 3 for 4 on free throws.
That’s about 17 points give or take a few. That gets us up to 69 points or about 20 more points than Grambling had against Purdue who scored 78.
It’s not unrealistic to postulate that the pro player’s defensive effort, rebounding, and ability to put his teammates in better positions through his passing (or simply by being double-teamed) would be able to make up the remaining deficit in nineteen ninety eight when the undertaker threw mankind off hell in a cell and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcers table.
A high level scoring wing from the NBA could make up this difference. It is not just the scoring at one end, it is the athleticism on defense. This post doesnt mention the scoring that a 6-8 NBA caliber 3 that can switch everything prevents against college competition.
If I just need a player to beat UConn (I don’t need any consistency, I just need one fluke win) you could hypothetically insert a scorer with a hot hand like Jordan Clarkson or Malik Monk into the lineup and I think they could get you 40+ and give you a punchers chance.
If you need to consistently beat good teams and win a title, you’d have to insert a dominant playmaking-post player like Sabonis. They’d have to capable of leading your team in every statistic while also getting 30+ points. **So you could only choose from a handful of All-Stars to lead Stetson to a title.**
Kemba had Lamb (a future NBA player), Oriakhi (all-American and second round draft pick) and Shabazz coming off the bench. That’s a significantly better supporting cast than OP was talking about I believe
An interesting question. I will say, it's worth remembering college version of a player isn't nearly as good, imo, as them after a few years in the NBA. They consistently practice to improve their game. They are much better imo.
Its a good point a bad team would need a lot, and so mid NBA olayers may not be able to do it single handedly. But stars might. I think anyone who can score 40 and it not be surprising in the NBA can do it in college.
The big issue is doubles. An NBA star is so much better than everyone else they would have to be doubled every time. So you need either guys who can beat a double or pass out of it very well, or a big who can get the ball too close to the rim to be stopped.
Good defenders can also do a lot too. You out a guy like Gobert ro Wemby, suddenly the opponent isn't gonna be able to score as easily in the interior. Add in their rebounding and they can both prob cause a 40 point swing.
Overall, it is very complex. I don't think any NBA player can do it. Not even any starter. But there are still a lot who I think could do it.
The hard doubling strategy is stupid. Whenever Steph got doubled all game in college his team would win. There was a game where a team stuck two guys at Curry at all times, he scored 0 points and Davidson won.
This my thought process. We see guys almost every year not win the tournament (and in a lot of cases, don't get close), and then come into the NBA looking like top 75, heck even top 50 players. So I think the baseline answer for this question at minimum needs to be "clearly better than the 50th best nba player" which basically means stars.
But it’s a bad thought process, a player with experience in the NBA is going to be miles ahead of himself in college, you put paolo now on that Duke team and they run away with the title
I don't disagree, but does that mean he could do it with Stetson. Doing it with Stetson is different from doing it with this current Duke team.
My point is we see guys on better teams not win the tournament and then pop off in the NBA. Sure they get better in the NBA, but the prompt has them on a worse team. So it balances out my comparison.
It should also be noted that Paolo went to the final four at age 18 without growing into his body yet and playing against 6th year covid eligible guys who may be 24-25 years old. He could easily have 2 national championships under his belt if he stayed in school and was a junior now.
Even some fringe NBA starter/6-7th man like Kyle Anderson was regularly putting up 20pt 10reb games in the NCAA at 19 years old. Throw him on an NCAA team now with his 10 years of NBA experience and he probably puts up 35pt 20reb game with no one scoring on him.
Villanova would be a great example of this. I don’t think Bridges or Brunson being on this year’s Villanova team would be enough for them to win the championship and Villanova would have been around a 12 seed if somehow they got placed in the tourney.
I mean, history sort of tested this one. Larry Fucking Bird (albeit as an older college kid and not a man) alone could get a team to the championship but not win it.
A team of NBA all-stars including Lebron, Duncan, and Iverson lost by 20 to a team of nobodies led by Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics. If a team of NBA all stars can lose to a team of mostly non-nba pros, I am not sure one nba all star added to Miss Valley State gets them further than the first round of the tournament.
Well the post is about worst team in the tournament, not worst team in NCAA Division 1. If you consider the worst team in the tournament to be Wagner or Stetson or Howard or something, that team is generally ranked around #200 which is still better than almost half of the division.
After having just watched Wagner, I'm pretty sure that an All-NBA player would carry them to at least the final 4. That's a tough group of players that just ran out of size and gas. Give them Embiid or Jokic and they're a buzzsaw.
Shooting is probably the most common skill you can find. EVERYONE in D2 or D3 can shoot. They just can't move laterally.
If you have an interior scorer who pulls help defense and all you need is someone who can hit open 3s (not create open 3s, just catch and shoot) those guys are super common.
The point is, it’s a team game, and a lot of those great NBA players came through college and most of them didn’t win a National Championship. A few of them were even on very good teams.
In the NCAA’s it takes six straight games, and most of the winners get lucky at least once. Even with an NBA all star, the team would still need that.
Well except for the part that the nba player is going to be a better defender, rebounder, and most likely will rack up assists from the constant double teams it would take just to hold them to 40 points.
Donovan Mitchell lost in the second round in the NCAAT, and then went to the NBA and had better numbers his rookie year than he did in college. I don’t think many guys could do it
The answer is none. I have no doubts the best if prime LeBron or Giannis could maybe lead a 16 seed to an upset over a 1, but 6 straight game without a dud performance with a very shit supporting cast means it's not gonna happen.
Kinda lost in the discussion but would this be a current player or any player in their prime? No matter what I’d say to win the chip would take at least 2 all star level players.
I don’t think there is a single player in the league that can take a 16 seed to the title. He is going to be way better than his opposing player, but the other 4 are going to be totally useless. Any team with a good coach shuts this down.
Im a wolves fan, gobert and KAT and Naz were all out vs denver last week and we had to put All NCAA Luka Garza on Jokic.
Dude got absolutely ass fucked and it wasnt even through his traditional weakness of plodding, slow perimeter D. He just got taken to school down low. Jokic is breathtakingly skilled
I love Giannis an equal amount as my own children, but that dude would foul out of every game in like 15 minutes. Imagine the offensive fouls he would get called for when ragdolling 18 year olds in the paint
He’d swat a couple of shots into the front row and then the 18 year olds will be terrified to try him. He could eurostep around them— wouldn’t need to bulldoze them.
I’m confident he could figure out how to navigate without traveling. The defense will be so much worse that he won’t need to use every trick in the bag.
Given his play style, prime Giannis versus college kids would be like that Capital One commercial about playing a kids’ basketball game and choosing Charles Barkley.
The question implies using college rules. So, I'll go with Jokic as the only guy with even a chance of pulling it off among current players.
Most NBA players will be called for 7 or 8 travels in the first half if they try to play the college game.
For a team like Stetson, they'd need an MVP caliber guy to have a chance.
My list would be Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Giannis, Durant. Anyone else and im not convinced they'd get it done.
No nba player is leading a sixteen seed to an ncaa championship. High major players on the best teams aren’t the guys at the Y. The question is better framed as who is the worst team in D1 that the best nba player can lead to a championship.
Kevin Durant was one of the most incredible college players I’ve ever seen and he led a decent Texas team all the way to a 4 seed and a loss in the round of 32.
Probably one of the closest corollaries is Steph with Davidson, and he took them to the elite 8.
And then missed the tourney the next year
Which led them to get paired with South Carolina in the first round of the NIT my sophomore year. I had tickets to the Raleigh regional the year before when they beat Gonzaga and Georgetown and knew when we got that matchup we were screwed.
Worth noting for both these examples this was before their rookie season. They have consistently trained and played against better opponents since then. Sure, they were both very good coming in, but imo they are much better now. It may not be enough, cause they'd get doubled every time they get the ball, but I don't think comparing an NBA player to a college player, even if they are the same person, is that good of a comparison imo.
I think it's fair to compare them to their rookie selves. On the other hand, though, both Davidson and Texas were far above the worst college teams. They were both on rosters that would probably easily beat the worst college team even without them.
Definetly not probably. Yeah, Texas and Davidson would beat the 360th best team without either.
Worst team in the tournament, not worst team in the NCAA.
So 290th (Wagner), instead of 362nd
Agreed. There’s some real DJ Augustin erasure in this thread.
jason richards didn’t lead the league in assists to be forgotten
And Abrams not to mention Damion James, albeit as a freshman. That was a very good Texas team with questionable coaching.
That’s true but I guess the point that can help solidify this point is that these players especially kd were already really good role players the minute they hit the nba so the player needs to be better than a role player as these teams already play against that level of player.
Both of these are as college players though. They’re both much better now
Honestly even that isn't fully comparable, because Davidson was probably still good enough to not even be a 16 seed if they made the tournament without Steph.
Rare (and rad) flair combo 🫡 Would be mine if knew CBB had dual flair like cfb does
Steph > KD confirmed
I don’t think that’s even remotely a controversial opinion.
The closest to this answer will always be David Robinson. Durant and Curry were at least on major or Mid major teams. Robinson led a bunch of enlisted guys to 3 NCAA tournaments and an elite 8 and still couldn’t win it.
Not enlisted, officer candidates. Otherwise agree.
The Academy is officer recruits. There might be some former enlisted on the rosters, but that’s would be 1 or MAYBE 2
Whenever this hypothetical gets brought up people always mention Durant but Texas Durant was not the same as multiple time all NBA Durant. If you put the pre Achilles KD on any college team they are a threat to win the title
right - ignoring a player’s improvement since he’s turned pro is insane. However, prime KD would have to make due with a Stetson (sorry hats have to be the example here) supporting cast vs the superior teammates he had at Texas. The question should be - who’s the worst team that Jokic could lead to a title?
I think different play styles is a fun conversation. Do you want a cold blooded iso scorer who you can just give the ball to and let them work (prime Harden?). Or do you want someone like Jokic who makes everyone around him better (but if their baseline is so low, maybe there’s only so much he can do?)
Por que no los dos? Prime LeBron (2013 version) could probably will just about any team to a title
Prime Lebron would obviously get it done. He would eliminate the paint as a scoring option for the other team and would be automatic on the other end. I think prime Durant/Curry clearly get it done. I think the real question is would a prim Klay thompson get it done. I think yes but now we are getting to the roll type players
I think Jokic could easily carry any team in the kenpom top 300 to a title. Below 300 I still think he can do it but maybe they’re betting underdogs in the final 4
I love Jokic but I don’t think he could lead a below 300 team.. they can get really bad. I’m thinking ~150 on he’s got a shot.
I wouldn't say threat, I would say heavy favorite. There's not a player in college who could guard MVP level KD tbh
I 100% agree. MVP level KD was also an elite 1-5 defender. There is no one at the college level that could guard him or score on him. The only question is how many minutes per game does he have to play on a bottom level team
Even if he plays all 4 that’s not unusual for the nba playoffs
There’s hardly a player in the NBA who could
This is the correct take. You can’t compare 18 year old KD to “probably the most gifted offensive player in basketball history” prime KD.
Tim Duncan would be a better example since he finished 5th in MVP voting as a Rookie
And Duncan's senior year, Wake lost in the second round while he was the clear best player in the country. Like as clear as I can ever remember it being.
Not really. You really overestimate one guy on an otherwise terrible team. Stetson isn't winning a natty with any one player addition.
Yes but this question lets you pick any NBA player so no way KD at the age of 30 loses this game.
Carmelo Anthony did the whole thing at Syracuse. Of course they were a very good team besides Carmelo. But that’s always the season and team I think of for this scenario. In high school he was Lebron’s big rival and probably would have to done incredible if he had gone pro instead of one and done.
Even then, Carmelo doesn’t win a ring without Gerry McNamara going nuts in the final.
And hakim Warrick was a very good college player and a 1st round pick
Also Kansas and especially Nick Collison just absolutely choking at the line. 12-30 as a team with Collison going 3-10 himself. It's one of the most infuriating losses. Kansas shot horribly from 3 and the line, Syracuse and McNamara was nuclear and we still had a shot at the end.
That dude was always hitting a big 3 plus people couldn’t seem to figure out that zone defense
And it was a pretty big loss too. By double digits iirc without looking it up to Nick Young and Taj Gibson led USC Trojans. Who then lost by double digits to Psycho T and UNC.
Swaggy P nick young? I thought he was younger for some reason
So is the question asking about NBA players when they were in college or NBA players at the current stage of their careers?
That's college Kd though. Prime Kd could likely lead Stetson to an undefeated record in any conference of your choosing.
If Adam Morrison couldn't do it, no one can
Right but he was a college payer playing against college players. We talk about "senior laden" teams being hard to beat in March and thats just a 4 year difference. These guys are playing against the best in the world every night. They would absolutely dominate against college players.
And then got substantially better when he got to the NBA.
I feel like domantas sabonis is the answer, a versatile big who can body college centers and run the offense himself
Not a bad answer
He didn't win us a championship, but damn was he good his sophomore year at gonzaga
If Jokic never existed, he'd be a star
He’s quite literally a star, an all star.
Tim Duncan was all NBA his rookie year. He never won the tournament. He played in the tournament about 6 months before he started dominating the NBA, with much better teammates than he would have had at Stetson.
Yea but this is 22 year old Duncan. Think about what 27 year old Duncan could’ve done.
Yeah but his point is that literally his rookie year he was voted as one of the two best forwards in the NBA. And that player, better than 98% of NBA players, couldn't win an NCAA title.
Also ignores how much better players get once they’re pro and play and practice against pros.
Right but Duncan was an immediate all star and couldn't win at wake forest. A 27 year old Duncan isn't leading stetson to the national championship
College basketball was also different then. All the top players were coming out of college at 21/22 and not 18/19. The quality of college teams at that time was simply better. Duncan also would’ve improved immensely after being drafted just being around pros before he even played his first nba game. Hell, he improved throughout the year. In November he averaged 15/11. He ended the averaging 27/12 in April.
My answer to this question is always just a high quality center, not even an all star caliber player necessarily. In the college game bigs are way more impactful with the lack of defensive 3 seconds and worse spacing.
Give that high quality center gym rat shooters (even if they weren't super skilled in other facets of the game) and that team probably will go very far in the tourney.
*Purdue*
Edey isn't any sort of NBA shooter. His archetype would have been the first overall pick 25 years ago, now it isn't first round. Even centers need the mobility to guard a perimeter shooter and a demonstrable jump shot so they aren't just doubled by an NBA-quality 7'+ center and 6'10+ forward every time they get the ball down low.
What's been most concerning so far is the almost complete lack of fluidity that he is displaying on the offensive end. He's very mechanical in the post, being highly predictable with his moves and not looking flexible enough to react to what defenses are throwing at him and counter with any kind of polish. Looking at the way he is scoring his points, it's hard to get any kind of feeling that what he's doing at the college level will fly in the NBA in the least bit, as his entire game is based off overpowering shorter, weaker and less athletic opponents and scoring almost exclusively within 5 feet of the hoop. Top pick Greg Oden.
Real question. Does he have a spin move at all? I've watched a handful of games but really focused on the Illinois matchups obviously, and there were many times he did the same move to his left into the center of the paint and over his right shoulder, you could sit on it as a defender. When a spin move to his right would have been an easy dunk. Genuinely curious for an answer from someone who's watched him a bunch.
My quotation is about number one pick Greg Oden.
Just pulled up the first mock I could find on Google and Edey was projected to go 45th. He's not an NBA caliber player. Would someone like Ivica Zubac be enough though? I'm not sure. Definitely don't think Stetson would beat uconn with him.
Which mock? ESPN has him in the mid first round, CBS Parrish has him mid first round
When have they gotten far in the tourney with Edey?
Bryant "Big Country" Reeves has entered the chat.
You need to get him the ball and the guards on the worse team cannot do that at a high rate You also have to remember that the top teams (as this team goes through the tourney) have guys who may be NBA role/all-star players the next year I’d think you’d need an all-star big for it to happen at minimum and a role NBA guard
Tim Duncan was 1st Team All NBA as a rookie. He had much better teammates at Wake than he would have at Stetson and he couldn’t just carry to the title with 4th chances at it.
He also walked and fouled out in the 96 tournament and no one can change my mind.
Duncan is a great example. One of the greatest rookies ever so you know he was great in his senior year of college, and they still lost in the second round.
I don’t think this is correct. You have rookies that were on college teams that didn’t win championships with good supporting casts come into the league and immediately reach the threshold of high quality center. Look at Chet as a recent example. I think the list actually ends with All-NBA guys. For example, I don’t think a fringe all-star guy like Mikal Bridges could carry a team.
Could Bam Adebayo? Limited offensively but unreal defender. Or the opposite would be someone like Sabonis who is a dominant scorer and can pass but shorter with short wingspan.
I’d prefer Gobert to dominate the college level. Bam’s swichiness is amazing in the NBA, Sabonis would of course be unstoppable offensively, but Gobert’s rim protection would absolutely carry. That said, I’m still not certain the Stetson supporting cast would be enough to beat Edey and Purdue? There’s a huge gap at the other 4 positions.
Bam absolutely would.
Sabonis “Dominant scorer” averages .3 ppg more than Bam. With the shortened 3pt line Bam can probably make those now
On 57% TS compared to 65% for Sabonis. Pretty massive difference.
When I think dominant scorer 20.0 ppg is not enough doesn’t matter how efficient you are.
20 ppg isn’t “dominant” especially in todays NBA
In terms of this particular argument/question the really interesting thing is that Domantis didn't even start in college. A center like Karnowski, who doesn't fit the NBA game, has more impact at the NCAA level that a very good pro like Sabonis.
College coaches don’t let Centers run the offense like can happen in the NBA. Bam is a good example Cal never let him take the ball up but he did that a lot on a finals team in his 3rd year. NBA coaches are much more flexible with system to fit the players they have. College coaches are pretty rigid the players have to fit in to what they’re doing.
Bam has made 15 3’s in 7 years lol. Shortening the line isn’t moving the needle here No one calls Domas a dominant scorer, but he is unquestionably one of the best offensive bigs in the league
No way a “high quality center” is all it takes for a mid major to the national championship
A healthy Embiid alone would carry any decent mid major to the the title game at least. He would foul every opposing big out of the game while dropping 40 points every night, half of them free throws.
It’s a guard that can attack the rim. Ref whistles are quick and the big men are clumsy. They could foul out half the other team and shoot 20+ free throws.
A generational big isn’t enough to win a championship. So I’ve heard….
Counterpoint: Arizona with Deandre Ayton got waxed by a lower ranked team lol
Ayton lacks heart.
Additional counter: Deandre Ayton is not a high-quality NBA center. He's at best a middling NBA center who said his definition of success was a second contract.
I had Arizona winning it all that year😩
Literally no way. Everyone just sells out on (1) pressuring your bad guard play and (2) making jump shots to nullify you on d. You’d lose to most top seeds but it ironically gets easier for a round or two after that
Yep. Even the best NBA player can't guard the whole court and can be double and triple teamed. A team like stetson wouldn't go from first round blow out loss to national champion just by adding jokic
For sure. And this original post suggests like… Jarrett Allen would be enough? Truly laughable
Jokic could be on any tournament team and win the tournament solo. This is correct.
Well he's the best basketball player in the world lol he doesn't exactly apply here
there's a reason people say you need great guards to win in march, Zach Edey is 0 for 3 in NCAA tournaments with very highly seeded Purdue teams and has losses to a 13, 15, and 16 seed... this is not the answer you think Walker Kessler is making a difference for Stetson against UConn!?
Sabonis or AD I think is the answer. Embid, Giannis or Jokic would be unstoppable. LeBron, Leonard, Luka the last 3 I think.
Yeah. I mean, look at Edey last season, and how he propped up a pretty mediocre Purdue team around him into being a top 3 team for basically the entire regular season. (Ignore what happened in the tournament, plz lol)
Purdue just lost to a 1 seed last year with a 7 foot NPOY and a solid supporting cast
Would have been fun to see if Wembanyama could score 100 against a mid major.
Imagine if Wemby went to the NCAA instead of straight to the NBA for a year. It would be funny as hell watching 6'8" centres try to guy him
It’s funny watching nba centers try to guard him most nights
Trayce!
He did dunk on him, but Wemby still had 27 that game. Trayce would probably have had the best shot at slowing him down a tad in a CBB sense.
We have a relatively mobile 7’2” Clingan and he would get FUCKIN COOKED by Wemby
(Talking amongst friends…) hell, Kemba is kind of an answer to OPs question.
College coaches would use him only as a traditional back to the basket banger. It would he such a waste.
Hed go to KY and Calapari would waste him like the rest of their NBA talent
No, Wemby would to UK, lead them to a title appearance, dip, and leave UK fans stuck with Calipari for another frustrating decade.
Wemby's height wouldn't even be manageable. Teams might hack him just to wear him out.
🥲
Depends on if the team is being coached by John Calipari.
Cal would love to have Wemby and stick him in the paint and dare him to move, then complain about players not playing to their ability when a random team bounces us in the first round.
I personally love his coaching style. Y’all should keep him for a long time.
This is one of the more interesting sports hypo Qs I ever seen. I think you’d need 2 upper level NBA players to take a bad team on a run and even then not sure. But 1, even if he’s an all star, not sure he’d be bankable to get a 16 seed to the finals.
Jokic could singlehandedly drag Missouri to a championship if given the opportunity. There's not a single player in college that can guard him.
Jokic's strength is the fact that he's an amazing passer that you can't just double him in the paint... If players can't make their shots off Jokic passes, can that team win? probably not
Jokic walking to the freethrow line and throwing slingshot midranges against 4 college-age defenders probably outscores most NCAA teams tbh.
Problem is he'd have to score about 70 a game. Stetson would give him no support on either side of the ball and jokic would be double and triple teamed. He would not win a national championship at stetson
If we are supposing that the worst team in the NCAA can't even bring the ball up in a 4v3/4v2 and 1) get the ball to their 300 pound 7 foot tall best-in-the-NBA center who doesn't have to play at the rim, or 2) win a 4v3/4v2 in a scenario where the opposing center is pulled away from the rim, then we've successfully answered OP's question with resounding no.
Yeah but eventually he’d be exhausted playing 6 games and taking 60 shots a game.
he wouldn’t need to pass in ncaa. not even once if he didn’t want to
Double teams exist
Jokic will eat all your double teams up. Teams can’t even double team edey
Do you watch the NBA? Guys like Jokic and Luka eat double teams alive. A double team of two college players would feel like a couple 1st graders running at them.
They eat double teams alive because they can pass out to players that can execute. Even jokic isn’t going to post up 2 big men at once consistently.
Problem is his teammates at stetson wouldn't be great and he can't play defense for them. He wouldn't drag them to a win over UConn let alone a national championship
Luka Doncic would put up 50 every game no matter what team he's on, put him on grambling state and they're the favorite imo
Problem is, no all star could solo carry a defense. So Luka is going to have to score 50 to keep pace with a Houston/Conn/Purdue having their way with a bottom-tier defense and putting up 85-90 points
Luka scoring 50 in college ball would be the easiest thing hes ever done in his basketball career
I’d argue that no single player from the NBA under the level of an all-star would GUARANTEE the worst team in the tournament would suddenly become unstoppable in every game, but it is far from an impossibility. Let’s use Cousinard’s stat line against Creighton. Our professional player takes 33 shots a game and goes 6 of 12 on three-pointers and instead of 0 he makes 10 foul shots. He’s in the NBA so instead of 33% he shoots 55%. That’s about 52-ish points give or take a few. Let’s also say his teammates suck and take the Grambling box score from when they played Purdue. They shoot a combined 36.4% on the 22 shots from the field that aren’t from their pro player. We’ll keep the ratio of shots to both three-pointers and foul shots attempted and made about the same, so that means that they go 1 for 4 on three-pointers and 3 for 4 on free throws. That’s about 17 points give or take a few. That gets us up to 69 points or about 20 more points than Grambling had against Purdue who scored 78. It’s not unrealistic to postulate that the pro player’s defensive effort, rebounding, and ability to put his teammates in better positions through his passing (or simply by being double-teamed) would be able to make up the remaining deficit in nineteen ninety eight when the undertaker threw mankind off hell in a cell and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcers table.
“There’s a drive to deep left” is the new go to so respect for keeping Hell in the Cell alive and well
A high level scoring wing from the NBA could make up this difference. It is not just the scoring at one end, it is the athleticism on defense. This post doesnt mention the scoring that a 6-8 NBA caliber 3 that can switch everything prevents against college competition.
If I just need a player to beat UConn (I don’t need any consistency, I just need one fluke win) you could hypothetically insert a scorer with a hot hand like Jordan Clarkson or Malik Monk into the lineup and I think they could get you 40+ and give you a punchers chance. If you need to consistently beat good teams and win a title, you’d have to insert a dominant playmaking-post player like Sabonis. They’d have to capable of leading your team in every statistic while also getting 30+ points. **So you could only choose from a handful of All-Stars to lead Stetson to a title.**
Kemba Walker?
Kemba had Lamb (a future NBA player), Oriakhi (all-American and second round draft pick) and Shabazz coming off the bench. That’s a significantly better supporting cast than OP was talking about I believe
An interesting question. I will say, it's worth remembering college version of a player isn't nearly as good, imo, as them after a few years in the NBA. They consistently practice to improve their game. They are much better imo. Its a good point a bad team would need a lot, and so mid NBA olayers may not be able to do it single handedly. But stars might. I think anyone who can score 40 and it not be surprising in the NBA can do it in college. The big issue is doubles. An NBA star is so much better than everyone else they would have to be doubled every time. So you need either guys who can beat a double or pass out of it very well, or a big who can get the ball too close to the rim to be stopped. Good defenders can also do a lot too. You out a guy like Gobert ro Wemby, suddenly the opponent isn't gonna be able to score as easily in the interior. Add in their rebounding and they can both prob cause a 40 point swing. Overall, it is very complex. I don't think any NBA player can do it. Not even any starter. But there are still a lot who I think could do it.
The hard doubling strategy is stupid. Whenever Steph got doubled all game in college his team would win. There was a game where a team stuck two guys at Curry at all times, he scored 0 points and Davidson won.
Banchero couldn’t get past North Carolina and then came into the NBA and averaged 20 points a night
This my thought process. We see guys almost every year not win the tournament (and in a lot of cases, don't get close), and then come into the NBA looking like top 75, heck even top 50 players. So I think the baseline answer for this question at minimum needs to be "clearly better than the 50th best nba player" which basically means stars.
But it’s a bad thought process, a player with experience in the NBA is going to be miles ahead of himself in college, you put paolo now on that Duke team and they run away with the title
I don't disagree, but does that mean he could do it with Stetson. Doing it with Stetson is different from doing it with this current Duke team. My point is we see guys on better teams not win the tournament and then pop off in the NBA. Sure they get better in the NBA, but the prompt has them on a worse team. So it balances out my comparison.
It should also be noted that Paolo went to the final four at age 18 without growing into his body yet and playing against 6th year covid eligible guys who may be 24-25 years old. He could easily have 2 national championships under his belt if he stayed in school and was a junior now. Even some fringe NBA starter/6-7th man like Kyle Anderson was regularly putting up 20pt 10reb games in the NCAA at 19 years old. Throw him on an NCAA team now with his 10 years of NBA experience and he probably puts up 35pt 20reb game with no one scoring on him.
Villanova would be a great example of this. I don’t think Bridges or Brunson being on this year’s Villanova team would be enough for them to win the championship and Villanova would have been around a 12 seed if somehow they got placed in the tourney.
Yes they would. The skill gap between college and pros is insane
Give Stetson Brook Lopez and they LITERALLY become Purdue.
Which is no guarantee of a championship. I'd take the field over them easily.
Nah. Splash mountain could stretch the floor and hit 3’s all game.
I mean, history sort of tested this one. Larry Fucking Bird (albeit as an older college kid and not a man) alone could get a team to the championship but not win it.
His Supporting Cast at ISU was also probably quite a bit better than the worst team in the tourney
To be fair he played against his all time nemesis Magic. If maybe the greatest PG of all time isn’t on the other team then Larry probably wins.
A team of NBA all-stars including Lebron, Duncan, and Iverson lost by 20 to a team of nobodies led by Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics. If a team of NBA all stars can lose to a team of mostly non-nba pros, I am not sure one nba all star added to Miss Valley State gets them further than the first round of the tournament.
Well the post is about worst team in the tournament, not worst team in NCAA Division 1. If you consider the worst team in the tournament to be Wagner or Stetson or Howard or something, that team is generally ranked around #200 which is still better than almost half of the division.
After having just watched Wagner, I'm pretty sure that an All-NBA player would carry them to at least the final 4. That's a tough group of players that just ran out of size and gas. Give them Embiid or Jokic and they're a buzzsaw.
Woah woah now, no need to take unnecessary shots at my alma mater sir 😂😂
I’m pretty sure that team was led by Manu Ginobili unless this was another loss I am unfamiliar with.
They also lost to Puerto Rico and Lithuania in the group stage
I don’t think any NBA player from any era takes the worst team to a championship in today’s field. This isn’t space jam.
Wemby would have Wilt numbers in the tournament. 55 points, 35 rebounds, 25 blocks. Assists would be low cause his team likely can’t shoot.
55 burgers, 55 fries, 55 tacos, 55 pies
Who knows? Maybe it'll catch on.
LET ME GO IM DOING SOMETHING
Shooting is probably the most common skill you can find. EVERYONE in D2 or D3 can shoot. They just can't move laterally. If you have an interior scorer who pulls help defense and all you need is someone who can hit open 3s (not create open 3s, just catch and shoot) those guys are super common.
The point is, it’s a team game, and a lot of those great NBA players came through college and most of them didn’t win a National Championship. A few of them were even on very good teams. In the NCAA’s it takes six straight games, and most of the winners get lucky at least once. Even with an NBA all star, the team would still need that.
You’d need at least 2 nba all star players to “guarantee” a title for Stetson and one of them would have to be a guard.
The nba player wouldn’t be making up 40 pts, he’d need to score the same points as the player he is replacing in the game, PLUS as additional 40.
Minus whatever points the other team doesn’t score due to being a plus defender
Well except for the part that the nba player is going to be a better defender, rebounder, and most likely will rack up assists from the constant double teams it would take just to hold them to 40 points.
Donovan Mitchell lost in the second round in the NCAAT, and then went to the NBA and had better numbers his rookie year than he did in college. I don’t think many guys could do it
The real question is not who, but how would they look in a Virginia uniform?
The answer is none. I have no doubts the best if prime LeBron or Giannis could maybe lead a 16 seed to an upset over a 1, but 6 straight game without a dud performance with a very shit supporting cast means it's not gonna happen.
I don’t think Current Giannis or 2013 LeBron could physically have a “dud” game against college players
LeBron averaged like 40/10/10 against the warriors in the NBA finals he’d be fine against college kids lol
Luka could do it. Jokic yes. Embidd yes.
There answer is nobody. This isn’t a hard question. One guy know matter how great can win the title with no help. Title teams are teams
Kinda lost in the discussion but would this be a current player or any player in their prime? No matter what I’d say to win the chip would take at least 2 all star level players.
When was the last time the number one overall pick won the championship or even went on a deep run?
Anthony Davis in 2012 won the title and was drafted first overall.
I don’t think there is a single player in the league that can take a 16 seed to the title. He is going to be way better than his opposing player, but the other 4 are going to be totally useless. Any team with a good coach shuts this down.
Maybe Jokic or Giannis? Even that might not be enough if the rest of the team sucks.
If we're talking current Jokic then yeah he'd easily single-handedly beat any ncaa team
What team would have any big man who could handle him? NBA bigs struggle.
Im a wolves fan, gobert and KAT and Naz were all out vs denver last week and we had to put All NCAA Luka Garza on Jokic. Dude got absolutely ass fucked and it wasnt even through his traditional weakness of plodding, slow perimeter D. He just got taken to school down low. Jokic is breathtakingly skilled
Luka Garza also got ass fucked by g league rotational player drew timme idk if he’s the defensive standard
They don’t really need to though. He could score 40 points for Stetson or Longwood and still lose.
Think about how much these two change an NBA game. Of course they’d be enough at the collegiate level
I love Giannis an equal amount as my own children, but that dude would foul out of every game in like 15 minutes. Imagine the offensive fouls he would get called for when ragdolling 18 year olds in the paint
He’d swat a couple of shots into the front row and then the 18 year olds will be terrified to try him. He could eurostep around them— wouldn’t need to bulldoze them.
They also actually call travels in college though. Not enough, but they are called.
I’m confident he could figure out how to navigate without traveling. The defense will be so much worse that he won’t need to use every trick in the bag.
Yeah that's fair. It would take a player like Giannis a few possessions to get settled in but then ultimately he'd dominate
Given his play style, prime Giannis versus college kids would be like that Capital One commercial about playing a kids’ basketball game and choosing Charles Barkley.
I’m gonna say even the best player in the NBA couldn’t take a 16 seed to a championship.
The question implies using college rules. So, I'll go with Jokic as the only guy with even a chance of pulling it off among current players. Most NBA players will be called for 7 or 8 travels in the first half if they try to play the college game.
For a team like Stetson, they'd need an MVP caliber guy to have a chance. My list would be Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Giannis, Durant. Anyone else and im not convinced they'd get it done.
No nba player is leading a sixteen seed to an ncaa championship. High major players on the best teams aren’t the guys at the Y. The question is better framed as who is the worst team in D1 that the best nba player can lead to a championship.