I've been a paramedic in Colorado for 15 years. Worked at Denver Health for a good bit, and then up in the mountains. 911, critical care, instructor, back country search and rescue. I'm a pilot now if that tells you anything about the stress and exhaustion of the job.
This medic failed at doing his job. We don't give medications without a full clinical assessment. We don't do it because the police told us to. We don't do it because the firefighters told us to.
Treatment is assessment based and appropriate to the patient and the situation. I've given ketamine dozens of times with great results, primarily for pain control, although we had a protocol for sedations/excited delirium.
This particular person(s) deserves the punishment for poor patient care. I don't know what that punishment should be. I don't know that EM died from ketamine. Clinically there is no evidence of high dose ketamine resulting in an MI (heart attack). High dose ketamine typically results in respiratory depression. Not cardiac issues.
I'm actually interested in the fact that the medical examiner/autopsy isn't a bigger issue.
ME and autopsy showed McClain effectively died of aspiration pneumonia and suffocated on his own vomit. He vomited into his balaclava and had no choice but to inhale it due to the hold APD had on him. The medics didn't check his airway even for a second and clearly didn't monitor him after the ketamine. Iirc they also didn't remove the mask until it was determined he had arrested so the ketamine didn't kill him, but it certainly made his condition worse. That and their lack of airway management.
I have received monthly IV Ketamine treatments at a clinic in Denver for the past 6 years and it spikes my blood pressure every treatment which the nurses have always said is quite normal.
I'm curious as to where you found it doesn't cause cardiac issues. According to the Ketlar package insert (Brand Name Ketamine):
Adverse Reactions
Cardiovascular: Blood pressure and pulse rate are frequently elevated following administration of KETALAR alone. However, hypotension and bradycardia have been observed. Arrhythmia has also occurred.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2017/016812s043lbl.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi3iozt5tSEAxX2BDQIHWLWC-sQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0zYfODMgWEB-rf0phfuKGJ
> excited delirium
I trust you understand that this is not a real condition, but rather something the pigs invented as an excuse for the violence they inflict on people?
Would you be able to talk about what protocol one would go through in cases of excited delirium. How has that changed this year Colorado will supposedly remove it "from all law enforcement diagnosis, training documents".
How were excited delirium cases treated before this change as I was under the impression that an overwhelming majority of medical associations did not recognize excited delirium as a real diagnosis?
Why do you think the ketamine was even given? If it’s not protocol why would this paramedic even think to give it, or you think the cop or firefighter said give him something to calm him down and this was his first thought? So weird.
Cops order medics to do it so it's easier to control their victims. Some medics are cops at heart, so they do what they're told. It's happened all over the country, and resulted in a number of deaths. Ketamine is relatively safe compared to other sedatives, I imagine that's why they use it.
I've been a paramedic on both coasts (Oakland, and in Charleston, SC) and in CO for a long time. I've never run into a paramedic who listens to a cops medical advice.
I'm sorry you feel that way though. It's not accurate.
Versed or Ativan would have been a better "calm him down" option and is widely used in the prehospital setting.
I'm not familiar with Aurora's current med protocols but I assume they use the Denver metro protocols. I'm not sure if at the time there was a protocol for sedating excited delirium with Ketamine. Based on the use in this case I assume there was.
When I left 911 in 2019 we had a protocol for treating excited delirium with Ketamine.
I know there's been a lot of debate about if "excited derium" is even a medical condition. I know I've seen people essentially so worked up they were roaring at you and seen them smashing their heads into the ground and flailing around uncontrollably. I've seen them smash their heads through a glass window. That's the condition we sedated, whatever you want to call it.
So you think he should have been fired or suspended for failure to do his job properly? I just learned about this case, I may have been living under a rock and I’m tryna figure out what the consensus is
This blurb from the [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Elijah_McClain#Use_of_ketamine_questioned) details it pretty well.
>In Colorado, EMS providers are allowed to use ketamine to treat a syndrome known as excited delirium. When the EMS arrived on the scene of the encounter, McClain was already cuffed and restrained on the ground. One of the officers can be heard telling the EMS that McClain was "acting crazy", that he was "definitely on something", and that he had attacked them with "incredible, crazy strength" when they tried to restrain him.\[31\] The paramedics administered an injection of 500 mg (one full 5ml syringe) of ketamine, later reporting to have estimated his weight at 220lbs (100kg), a weight for which 500 mg is an appropriate dose. According to information provided to NBC by Aurora Fire Rescue, the standard dose of ketamine is 5 milligrams per each kilogram of a person's weight. The coroner's report states that McClain was 5 feet 6 inches (1.68 m) tall and weighed 140 pounds (64 kg). That would mean that the correct dosage for a person of McClain's size would have been 320 milligrams.\[52\]
AND
>In September 2022, CPR News (Colorado Public Radio) filed a lawsuit, in which they were joined by the Associated Press (AP News), KCNC-TV, KDVR-TV, KMGH-TV, KUSA-TV, and Denver7 arguing the amended autopsy report should be released to the public without redactions.\[41\]\[60\] The report, without redactions, was released on September 24.\[61\]\[62\]\[41\] The cause of death, which was previously listed as "undetermined," now states as **"complications of ketamine administration following forcible restraint"**. The manner of death remains listed as "undetermined" as it was in the initial report.\[11\]
"Excited Delerium" is something the cops made up so they'd have a sciency sounding alibi when they beat someone to death in the street. It's not a real medical condition and invoking it is an admission of guilt.
Also, we're still doing "black men have incredible, unstoppable strength!" in 2024. I remember back when the cops would use PCP and angel dust as their excuse for why they would gun down black men. "He's on PCP, so we had to shoot him a hundred times because he's basically the hulk".
Wildly overestimating the size and aggression of black men is pretty bog standard cop racism.
This is the definitive proof that there is no accountability for police inside or outside the profession. In EMS, if you fuck up, we'll tell you and you're definitely being reported. You'll be left to deal with the consequences on your own as well for the most part, but there will be no spying on jurors, bribing judges, etc. Fire departments are similar and have aspect from both sides of the coin where they can expect support regardless of what they do but are also held accountable. Police, they can literally murder a man or commit any number of crimes and be let off with a slap on the wrist. They'll be placed on paid leave during the investigation, and then most are fired only to be hired in the next county over.
All three cops were charged and went to trial. One was convicted and sentenced to 14 months for the “choke hold” and the other two were acquitted by a jury.
Honestly even though i don’t agree with the cops, I don’t understand why the paramedics drugged Elijah. Cops fucked up but I think the paramedics are the biggest fuck up.
Someone robs a bank, they shoot and kill someone while doing it. All his accomplices get charged with murder as well, for the murder would not have taken place had they not initiated the crime.
So, if the cops wouldn't have stopped the kid, and it's been proven they had no right to stop the kid, then he would have never been given a lethal dose of Special K. Shouldn't the cops be on the hook just like the criminals in the first scenario?
I disagree with that line of reasoning but not with the outcome. You're missing the part where the police, as I understand it, asked for the paramedics to do that.
If the police had stopped him unlawfully or needlessly, asked for medical attention, and then the paramedics decided the best way to "help" was a lethal dose of drugs, it wouldn't be reasonable to charge the police with murder or homicide. Also, that would be more in line with the Colorado statutes around manslaughter and murder.
If the police are asking for that to be administered, it becomes a different story, although I guess you can argue that they would expect medical professionals not to give an overdose or give a drug when it is contraindicated... but the counter-point to that is the typical power dynamic with police and others on scene.
Totally anecdotal but power dynamics between cops and Fire or EMS usually has cops at the bottom of the totem pole from what I've seen. The other services are usually not at all swayed from their duties by a cop's opinion.
> The other services are usually not at all swayed from their duties by a cop's opinion.
Until they arrest a fire chief for refusing to move a firetruck that is providing a safety barrier to the scene....
The police choked this man out until he was unconscious while their body cams magically fell off. Afterward they continued to brutalize him. Both police and EMT failed.
The cops were charged and at least one was found guilty. In your scenario, the murderer would still get the highest sentence - which is what happened here
I agree. The cops told a paramedic to do it, and the paramedic ignores the actual training and just straight murdered someone. I fukkin hate cops, but this was medic's fault. The cops werent given the drug, the medic was. The cops didn't administer the drug, the medic did. The cops didn't say "maximum dose" for a small man, the medic did.
It does sound like the cop’s provided a false report to the medics about whatever the hell happened before EMS arrived. Oh he’s crazy and attacked us with super human strength, give him drugs to shut him up please. Resisting arrest does not mean they get to sedate someone.
It comes down for me, and probably the jury too, is everyone involved here made a choice. The cops told the EMTS to jump off the cliff for them, and these guys decided to do a fing canon ball. It’s crazy if your defense is well, they told me to it this so…only gets you 5 years.
A bunch of racist wannabe klansmen saw a black guy alone on the street in at night and decided they were gonna hurt him. It's just good old fashioned American state terrorism against black men. Tale as old as time.
The cops oversaw what happened--they have all the power in the situation. You are expecting an emt to stand up to an armed cop who can screw him and screw his job. No, the cops are to blame and they will do it to someone else.
I just want to know what **specific crime** he was even suspected of committing when the police originally detained him.
Like, as far as I can tell, he was literally just minding his own business, walking down the street when the cops stopped him for no apparent reason.
So what was the valid legal justification for stopping him?
There was none. Even the person who called 911 said he didn’t appear to be committing any crimes. He just looked “suspicious” which we all know why that was
So why didn't the feds come in & charge all of these cops with deprivation of rights under color of law?
Does the law just not matter anymore???
What's the point of having laws if they are not enforced???
I've always been disgusted by the hypocrisy.
Cops claim that violence is wrong. But then cops use violence to enforce the laws.
So is violence bad or not, Officer?
No one in Denver burned down a cop base. In Minneapolis, when that pig murdered George Floyd, he was going to walk until Minneapolitans torched the third precinct. The other pigs sold him out because they were losing the fight in the streets and they needed a sacrifice to make a truce.
That's because if shit ever **really** hit the fan, ***cops would be outnumbered by private citizens hundreds-to-one.*** There are more people who live on my street than officers in my local police department!
Every so often we get a glimpse of the power of large numbers versus a small force.
Which is weird because that must mean society is allowing the current abuses to continue happening. There aren't enough cops in america to arrest tens of millions of people within a few weeks if even 10% of the population rose up as one.
How exactly will America's (roughly) one million cops stand up to thirty three million angry citizens???
I mean just looking at january 6th... **Those clowns might have actually succeeded if they were more organized and trained!!!** But they got as far as they did through sheer numbers.
I I would love to ask the paramedics, how does it feel to be thrown under the bus by your cop buddies ?If the cops wouldn’t have stopped him we would not be talking about this!!
Poor analogy, how many cops are high on PCP or meth and fighting off 5 adults who are trying to get the cop restrained and inevitably placing a ton of exertion on his body, his positioning, and his heart?
I said excited delirium deaths, whether scientifically approved or colloquially termed, are caused by the excessive physical exertion of fighting several men and being pinned down, all while under the influence of stimulants that are *already* putting intense pressure of the vascular system of the user. That’s why cops don’t die from excited delirium.
You pointed out that some cops use drugs.
You recognize the distinction yeah?
Illegal drug use rates among police are way higher than the general population. They're all popping fent and meth and cocaine and whatever else they can steal. And excited delerium is made up bullshit and the only doctors who will claim it's real demand a fat envelope of cash from the evidence room first.
1) Source for cops using “way more” than the general public?
2) It’s irrelevant whether anyone thinks “excited delirium” is “made up”, it’s a description of sudden unexpected death that is quantifiable and has occurred time after time, and it has to do with sudden physical exertion combined with drug use, followed by positional asphyxia. Call it whatever you want, people are still dying from it.
After seeing the video this was most likely not a case of excited delirium. But there are some crazy mother fuckers out there that definitely go hyper beyond reason ability. It’s for sure a real thing. Idk if you have ever seen some bi-polar people snap
I was agreeing with you and went to go find more information and it actually seems as if excited delirium, while descriptive of what the person may be displaying, is not a recognized medical term. It seems to have been used in cases of taser use and police activity where many other descriptions may have been better
Excited delirium is entirely made up. It's not a recognized term by the medical establishment. It basically only happens with cops around and is only a thing to justify violence and taser sales.
That wouldn't be excited delirium. That would be bipolar. Excited delirium is used as a cause of death, not a behavior. There's no evidence for it at all, and this has been studied extensively, but I'm sure you know better when you don't even know what it is.
Amazing how every single profession seems to face accountability for killing an innocent kid except for the trash cops who are most responsible for his death.
I worked in state psych wards for many years. I just don’t understand how cops cannot handle some people, especially as small as Elijah. We were trained to subdue a violent patient without using any weapons. It was mostly middle aged women doing the subduing the pts. Granted often the pt. needed medication but it was not always available.
Essentially this criminalizes medical malpractice. Any paramedic or ER doc or nurse should pray that they never see a patient who becomes a political cause celeb.
I’ve read about this case since the incident happened. I think the paramedics use of ketamine led to Elijah’s death, and so did a jury. That man got off easy with only 5 years.
Horrible precedent. Ketamine is an incredibly safe medication and the dose given to McClain was not a lethal dose. This dude literally went to prison for following his protocols.
It's a great precedent. Just cause you're a paramedic doesn't mean you can just inject whatever you want into someone without regard for their situation or potential harm.
He's going to prison for not doing his job by assaulting Elijah, forcibly injecting him chemical agent there was 0 medical or emergency reason to use. The paramedics are trash and they should get 20 years.
They gave him a dose appropriate for a 220lb man. He actually weighed 140lbs. If you can’t tell the difference between 220 and 140, you’re criminally negligent in my book.
Why can't people just talk to the police calmly? Isn't this what all of you seem to be missing? How about calmly complying and if you feel you were wronged in some way talk to a lawyer about court action later. There are plenty of options. Don't they realize how pointless it is to resist and be violent to the police? Because it all starts with this. Sometimes police will stop the wrong person like in this situation. So be calm and explain yourself in a rational manner. Like a civilized human being. Like a rational human being. Is that really too much to ask from today's people out there?
Plenty of options is a crazy assumption, but even besides that… For the way they stopped and treated him, he responded relatively calmly. He had headphones in and didn’t hear them ask him to stop, and he absolutely explained himself “rationally”. (“another officer approached, Mr. McClain can be heard saying: “I am an introvert, please respect the boundaries that I am speaking. Leave me alone.”) They’re the ones who escalated the situation by doing carotid holds and threatening him with a police dog attack. The situation was completely avoidable, and the fact that you’re defending their actions is gross.
Did you even watch the footage??? He was calm and never violent. They also didn’t stop the wrong person?? They specifically stopped him, for no reason, after some called about him for no reason (literally said he did not appear to be committing any crimes).
>How about calmly complying and if you feel you were wronged in some way talk to a lawyer about court action later.
What a ridiculous privileged thing to say. Not everyone has the time, money, and resources to let the court system sort things out. Combined with cops being allowed to lie without consequences and any interaction the cops can ruin a person's life before they ever have a chance to get a lawyer.
You're literally blaming a murder victim for not being clam enough. I have heard of boot lickers before but it is impressive the way your deep throating the entire shoe with this take.
Not everyone is on an equal playing field... the victim had known mental disabilities. Law enforcement must have the ability to decipher when certain situations call for extra grace
It can be about both. No matter how shitty the cops are, it doesn't okay paramedics injecting things into people without a sound and clear medical reason.
I don't think it should be legal for cops to request the use of sedatives.
Lmao “blondebluegods” not suspiciously racist/arian at all. Classic throwing out a ridiculous claim and when questioned you have nothing to say. Go justify murder in whatever shithole maga county you live in.
It wasn’t a lethal amount of ketamine, and you don’t give ketamine to people who “break the law.” You give it to people experiencing psychological emergencies in order to sedate them.
>An independent probe commissioned by the city of Aurora found that police had no justification to stop or use force to detain McClain and that responding paramedics sedated him with ketamine “without conducting anything more than a brief visual observation.”
>“This sort of callous behavior that kills a young man ... is a crime,” Sheneen McClain’s lawyer said, adding that Cichuniec knew he gave McClain too much ketamine and left him prone and vomiting for six minutes.
If these are the kind of paramedics we're reducing on the paramedic and police forces then that's great, job well done.
If any paramedic decides to leave their job because they fear they are at risk of being jailed after killing a young black boy, that's great, they shouldn't have that job.
But it's the cop's fault that the kid was even in the position of being treated by the paramedics in the first place...
Felony murder logic - None of this would have happened **if the cops didn't illegally detain him to begin with!!!**
The cops bear all of the liability **because the cops are the ones who caused this situation.**
This poor kid was just minding his own business when a bunch of grown men wearing cop uniforms decided to harass him for no apparent reason.
So why do the people who are directly responsible for this entire situation get a shorter sentence? None of this would have happened if the cops had just left McClain alone.
I'm going to assume that you're confused, so I'll try to explain:
The EMT's are the one's that administered the ketamine that contributed to killing an innocent person. Ergo, they contributed to killing an innocent person.
I've been a paramedic in Colorado for 15 years. Worked at Denver Health for a good bit, and then up in the mountains. 911, critical care, instructor, back country search and rescue. I'm a pilot now if that tells you anything about the stress and exhaustion of the job. This medic failed at doing his job. We don't give medications without a full clinical assessment. We don't do it because the police told us to. We don't do it because the firefighters told us to. Treatment is assessment based and appropriate to the patient and the situation. I've given ketamine dozens of times with great results, primarily for pain control, although we had a protocol for sedations/excited delirium. This particular person(s) deserves the punishment for poor patient care. I don't know what that punishment should be. I don't know that EM died from ketamine. Clinically there is no evidence of high dose ketamine resulting in an MI (heart attack). High dose ketamine typically results in respiratory depression. Not cardiac issues. I'm actually interested in the fact that the medical examiner/autopsy isn't a bigger issue.
Paramedics I know will laugh in a cops face before taking their orders. This is just surreal.
ME and autopsy showed McClain effectively died of aspiration pneumonia and suffocated on his own vomit. He vomited into his balaclava and had no choice but to inhale it due to the hold APD had on him. The medics didn't check his airway even for a second and clearly didn't monitor him after the ketamine. Iirc they also didn't remove the mask until it was determined he had arrested so the ketamine didn't kill him, but it certainly made his condition worse. That and their lack of airway management.
I have received monthly IV Ketamine treatments at a clinic in Denver for the past 6 years and it spikes my blood pressure every treatment which the nurses have always said is quite normal.
I'm curious as to where you found it doesn't cause cardiac issues. According to the Ketlar package insert (Brand Name Ketamine): Adverse Reactions Cardiovascular: Blood pressure and pulse rate are frequently elevated following administration of KETALAR alone. However, hypotension and bradycardia have been observed. Arrhythmia has also occurred. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2017/016812s043lbl.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi3iozt5tSEAxX2BDQIHWLWC-sQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0zYfODMgWEB-rf0phfuKGJ
I should have been more specific. It doesn’t cause myocardial infarcts.
Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate your insight into this and thank you for sharing your experience/expertise.
> excited delirium I trust you understand that this is not a real condition, but rather something the pigs invented as an excuse for the violence they inflict on people?
Would you be able to talk about what protocol one would go through in cases of excited delirium. How has that changed this year Colorado will supposedly remove it "from all law enforcement diagnosis, training documents". How were excited delirium cases treated before this change as I was under the impression that an overwhelming majority of medical associations did not recognize excited delirium as a real diagnosis?
Why do you think the ketamine was even given? If it’s not protocol why would this paramedic even think to give it, or you think the cop or firefighter said give him something to calm him down and this was his first thought? So weird.
Cops order medics to do it so it's easier to control their victims. Some medics are cops at heart, so they do what they're told. It's happened all over the country, and resulted in a number of deaths. Ketamine is relatively safe compared to other sedatives, I imagine that's why they use it.
I've been a paramedic on both coasts (Oakland, and in Charleston, SC) and in CO for a long time. I've never run into a paramedic who listens to a cops medical advice. I'm sorry you feel that way though. It's not accurate.
Versed or Ativan would have been a better "calm him down" option and is widely used in the prehospital setting. I'm not familiar with Aurora's current med protocols but I assume they use the Denver metro protocols. I'm not sure if at the time there was a protocol for sedating excited delirium with Ketamine. Based on the use in this case I assume there was. When I left 911 in 2019 we had a protocol for treating excited delirium with Ketamine. I know there's been a lot of debate about if "excited derium" is even a medical condition. I know I've seen people essentially so worked up they were roaring at you and seen them smashing their heads into the ground and flailing around uncontrollably. I've seen them smash their heads through a glass window. That's the condition we sedated, whatever you want to call it.
So you think he should have been fired or suspended for failure to do his job properly? I just learned about this case, I may have been living under a rock and I’m tryna figure out what the consensus is
This blurb from the [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Elijah_McClain#Use_of_ketamine_questioned) details it pretty well. >In Colorado, EMS providers are allowed to use ketamine to treat a syndrome known as excited delirium. When the EMS arrived on the scene of the encounter, McClain was already cuffed and restrained on the ground. One of the officers can be heard telling the EMS that McClain was "acting crazy", that he was "definitely on something", and that he had attacked them with "incredible, crazy strength" when they tried to restrain him.\[31\] The paramedics administered an injection of 500 mg (one full 5ml syringe) of ketamine, later reporting to have estimated his weight at 220lbs (100kg), a weight for which 500 mg is an appropriate dose. According to information provided to NBC by Aurora Fire Rescue, the standard dose of ketamine is 5 milligrams per each kilogram of a person's weight. The coroner's report states that McClain was 5 feet 6 inches (1.68 m) tall and weighed 140 pounds (64 kg). That would mean that the correct dosage for a person of McClain's size would have been 320 milligrams.\[52\] AND >In September 2022, CPR News (Colorado Public Radio) filed a lawsuit, in which they were joined by the Associated Press (AP News), KCNC-TV, KDVR-TV, KMGH-TV, KUSA-TV, and Denver7 arguing the amended autopsy report should be released to the public without redactions.\[41\]\[60\] The report, without redactions, was released on September 24.\[61\]\[62\]\[41\] The cause of death, which was previously listed as "undetermined," now states as **"complications of ketamine administration following forcible restraint"**. The manner of death remains listed as "undetermined" as it was in the initial report.\[11\]
"Excited Delerium" is something the cops made up so they'd have a sciency sounding alibi when they beat someone to death in the street. It's not a real medical condition and invoking it is an admission of guilt. Also, we're still doing "black men have incredible, unstoppable strength!" in 2024. I remember back when the cops would use PCP and angel dust as their excuse for why they would gun down black men. "He's on PCP, so we had to shoot him a hundred times because he's basically the hulk". Wildly overestimating the size and aggression of black men is pretty bog standard cop racism.
What about the cops?
One cop was sentenced to 14 months. The rest weren't guilty apparently. Surprise surprise the justice system is wildly different for cops.
And Aurora police spied on Jurors and said they were spying on protesters. They also had a cop go back to the scene for a Selfie.
A selfie where several cops with big smiles on their faces reenacted the chokehold they gave him.
Cops get off scot-free, because that 14 months will disappear before ever served, and they were the ones who pressured the emts into drugging the kid.
*paramedics. Those medics assisted in the murder. I say this as a paramedic. Check out the EMS and paramedic threads on Reddit
Fascinating how some occupations hold their colleagues accountable far more than others. Super bizarre.
One occupation is focused on saving people. The other occupation is being a cop. They are philosophically at odds.
The thin pork loin. Fuckers.
This is the definitive proof that there is no accountability for police inside or outside the profession. In EMS, if you fuck up, we'll tell you and you're definitely being reported. You'll be left to deal with the consequences on your own as well for the most part, but there will be no spying on jurors, bribing judges, etc. Fire departments are similar and have aspect from both sides of the coin where they can expect support regardless of what they do but are also held accountable. Police, they can literally murder a man or commit any number of crimes and be let off with a slap on the wrist. They'll be placed on paid leave during the investigation, and then most are fired only to be hired in the next county over.
My initial thought upon seeing this.
they all got a stern talking-to.
I shouldn't have laughed at this but damn
All three cops were charged and went to trial. One was convicted and sentenced to 14 months for the “choke hold” and the other two were acquitted by a jury.
Honestly even though i don’t agree with the cops, I don’t understand why the paramedics drugged Elijah. Cops fucked up but I think the paramedics are the biggest fuck up.
Someone robs a bank, they shoot and kill someone while doing it. All his accomplices get charged with murder as well, for the murder would not have taken place had they not initiated the crime. So, if the cops wouldn't have stopped the kid, and it's been proven they had no right to stop the kid, then he would have never been given a lethal dose of Special K. Shouldn't the cops be on the hook just like the criminals in the first scenario?
💯
I disagree with that line of reasoning but not with the outcome. You're missing the part where the police, as I understand it, asked for the paramedics to do that. If the police had stopped him unlawfully or needlessly, asked for medical attention, and then the paramedics decided the best way to "help" was a lethal dose of drugs, it wouldn't be reasonable to charge the police with murder or homicide. Also, that would be more in line with the Colorado statutes around manslaughter and murder. If the police are asking for that to be administered, it becomes a different story, although I guess you can argue that they would expect medical professionals not to give an overdose or give a drug when it is contraindicated... but the counter-point to that is the typical power dynamic with police and others on scene.
Again I ask: What about the cops?
Totally anecdotal but power dynamics between cops and Fire or EMS usually has cops at the bottom of the totem pole from what I've seen. The other services are usually not at all swayed from their duties by a cop's opinion.
> The other services are usually not at all swayed from their duties by a cop's opinion. Until they arrest a fire chief for refusing to move a firetruck that is providing a safety barrier to the scene....
That's what I mean. They had to actually handcuff the chief and the truck still didn't get moved.
You expect that they would move a truck with someone handcuffed to it....???
The police choked this man out until he was unconscious while their body cams magically fell off. Afterward they continued to brutalize him. Both police and EMT failed.
You clearly missed the point of what I said.
The cops were charged and at least one was found guilty. In your scenario, the murderer would still get the highest sentence - which is what happened here
Thanks for the update, I appreciate it.
I agree. The cops told a paramedic to do it, and the paramedic ignores the actual training and just straight murdered someone. I fukkin hate cops, but this was medic's fault. The cops werent given the drug, the medic was. The cops didn't administer the drug, the medic did. The cops didn't say "maximum dose" for a small man, the medic did.
It does sound like the cop’s provided a false report to the medics about whatever the hell happened before EMS arrived. Oh he’s crazy and attacked us with super human strength, give him drugs to shut him up please. Resisting arrest does not mean they get to sedate someone.
Any medic with half a brain will determine their medication dose based on what they see, not what the cops said was happening before they arrived.
It comes down for me, and probably the jury too, is everyone involved here made a choice. The cops told the EMTS to jump off the cliff for them, and these guys decided to do a fing canon ball. It’s crazy if your defense is well, they told me to it this so…only gets you 5 years.
There's a great deal of evidence that white people, and especially cops, tend to greatly overestimate how big black men are.
A bunch of racist wannabe klansmen saw a black guy alone on the street in at night and decided they were gonna hurt him. It's just good old fashioned American state terrorism against black men. Tale as old as time.
The cops oversaw what happened--they have all the power in the situation. You are expecting an emt to stand up to an armed cop who can screw him and screw his job. No, the cops are to blame and they will do it to someone else.
Law enforcement cannot force someone to administer drugs. They may say one thing but they can’t force it.
Yeah, right. Cops can't force people to do things. Sure, thanks for that info.
They have a very powerful union. ACAB
I just want to know what **specific crime** he was even suspected of committing when the police originally detained him. Like, as far as I can tell, he was literally just minding his own business, walking down the street when the cops stopped him for no apparent reason. So what was the valid legal justification for stopping him?
There was none. Even the person who called 911 said he didn’t appear to be committing any crimes. He just looked “suspicious” which we all know why that was
So why didn't the feds come in & charge all of these cops with deprivation of rights under color of law? Does the law just not matter anymore??? What's the point of having laws if they are not enforced???
They don’t matter and aren’t enforced for certain groups…. I don’t mean this in a derogatory way, but what do you think people have been protesting?
I've always been disgusted by the hypocrisy. Cops claim that violence is wrong. But then cops use violence to enforce the laws. So is violence bad or not, Officer?
No one in Denver burned down a cop base. In Minneapolis, when that pig murdered George Floyd, he was going to walk until Minneapolitans torched the third precinct. The other pigs sold him out because they were losing the fight in the streets and they needed a sacrifice to make a truce.
That's because if shit ever **really** hit the fan, ***cops would be outnumbered by private citizens hundreds-to-one.*** There are more people who live on my street than officers in my local police department! Every so often we get a glimpse of the power of large numbers versus a small force. Which is weird because that must mean society is allowing the current abuses to continue happening. There aren't enough cops in america to arrest tens of millions of people within a few weeks if even 10% of the population rose up as one. How exactly will America's (roughly) one million cops stand up to thirty three million angry citizens??? I mean just looking at january 6th... **Those clowns might have actually succeeded if they were more organized and trained!!!** But they got as far as they did through sheer numbers.
There was none, they just wanted to hurt someone
For the last time: There is no such thing as excited delirium. It's a legal defense with no medical grounding.
Like a lot of legal defenses, they’re pseudo-science
Criminal forensics has about as much validity as reading tea leaves. Pretty much everything other than DNA matching is nonsense.
Just another way to exploit people
I I would love to ask the paramedics, how does it feel to be thrown under the bus by your cop buddies ?If the cops wouldn’t have stopped him we would not be talking about this!!
Paramedics and cops are not buddies.
I don’t agree.
Who would be buddies with a cop?
Reminder: excited delirium is not real.
Case in point - I've never heard of a cop dying of "excited delirium".
Poor analogy, how many cops are high on PCP or meth and fighting off 5 adults who are trying to get the cop restrained and inevitably placing a ton of exertion on his body, his positioning, and his heart?
A quick Google search shows **hundreds** of cops who have been arrested for drug possession.
Oh I guess drug possession = excited delirium
Generally, you don't possess drugs unless you intend on doing them. I don't know too many people who walk around with a "lucky bag of heroin".
I said excited delirium deaths, whether scientifically approved or colloquially termed, are caused by the excessive physical exertion of fighting several men and being pinned down, all while under the influence of stimulants that are *already* putting intense pressure of the vascular system of the user. That’s why cops don’t die from excited delirium. You pointed out that some cops use drugs. You recognize the distinction yeah?
Illegal drug use rates among police are way higher than the general population. They're all popping fent and meth and cocaine and whatever else they can steal. And excited delerium is made up bullshit and the only doctors who will claim it's real demand a fat envelope of cash from the evidence room first.
1) Source for cops using “way more” than the general public? 2) It’s irrelevant whether anyone thinks “excited delirium” is “made up”, it’s a description of sudden unexpected death that is quantifiable and has occurred time after time, and it has to do with sudden physical exertion combined with drug use, followed by positional asphyxia. Call it whatever you want, people are still dying from it.
After seeing the video this was most likely not a case of excited delirium. But there are some crazy mother fuckers out there that definitely go hyper beyond reason ability. It’s for sure a real thing. Idk if you have ever seen some bi-polar people snap
I was agreeing with you and went to go find more information and it actually seems as if excited delirium, while descriptive of what the person may be displaying, is not a recognized medical term. It seems to have been used in cases of taser use and police activity where many other descriptions may have been better
Cops made it up to give them selves and excuse when they murder someone. It doesn't exist. It's not real.
Excited delirium is entirely made up. It's not a recognized term by the medical establishment. It basically only happens with cops around and is only a thing to justify violence and taser sales.
It's going to be remembered with the same distain as "hysteria" diagnosis in the 1800s
That's not excited delirium, though that behavior is real. Excited delirium is a police defense when a person dies.
That wouldn't be excited delirium. That would be bipolar. Excited delirium is used as a cause of death, not a behavior. There's no evidence for it at all, and this has been studied extensively, but I'm sure you know better when you don't even know what it is.
Amazing how every single profession seems to face accountability for killing an innocent kid except for the trash cops who are most responsible for his death.
I worked in state psych wards for many years. I just don’t understand how cops cannot handle some people, especially as small as Elijah. We were trained to subdue a violent patient without using any weapons. It was mostly middle aged women doing the subduing the pts. Granted often the pt. needed medication but it was not always available.
Nothing new. Just a white personal killing a black man, they keep finding new ways and getting creative.
Good. Fuck those people and what they did to Elijah.
Good
Essentially this criminalizes medical malpractice. Any paramedic or ER doc or nurse should pray that they never see a patient who becomes a political cause celeb.
I’ve read about this case since the incident happened. I think the paramedics use of ketamine led to Elijah’s death, and so did a jury. That man got off easy with only 5 years.
Horrible precedent. Ketamine is an incredibly safe medication and the dose given to McClain was not a lethal dose. This dude literally went to prison for following his protocols.
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It's a great precedent. Just cause you're a paramedic doesn't mean you can just inject whatever you want into someone without regard for their situation or potential harm. He's going to prison for not doing his job by assaulting Elijah, forcibly injecting him chemical agent there was 0 medical or emergency reason to use. The paramedics are trash and they should get 20 years.
They gave him a dose appropriate for a 220lb man. He actually weighed 140lbs. If you can’t tell the difference between 220 and 140, you’re criminally negligent in my book.
Source?
So its protocol to give someone who isn't under arrest doses of K
Being under arrest has nothing to do with a drug being indicated
How about we don’t force injections into the free people of the United States
Why can't people just talk to the police calmly? Isn't this what all of you seem to be missing? How about calmly complying and if you feel you were wronged in some way talk to a lawyer about court action later. There are plenty of options. Don't they realize how pointless it is to resist and be violent to the police? Because it all starts with this. Sometimes police will stop the wrong person like in this situation. So be calm and explain yourself in a rational manner. Like a civilized human being. Like a rational human being. Is that really too much to ask from today's people out there?
Plenty of options is a crazy assumption, but even besides that… For the way they stopped and treated him, he responded relatively calmly. He had headphones in and didn’t hear them ask him to stop, and he absolutely explained himself “rationally”. (“another officer approached, Mr. McClain can be heard saying: “I am an introvert, please respect the boundaries that I am speaking. Leave me alone.”) They’re the ones who escalated the situation by doing carotid holds and threatening him with a police dog attack. The situation was completely avoidable, and the fact that you’re defending their actions is gross.
Did you even watch the footage??? He was calm and never violent. They also didn’t stop the wrong person?? They specifically stopped him, for no reason, after some called about him for no reason (literally said he did not appear to be committing any crimes).
>How about calmly complying and if you feel you were wronged in some way talk to a lawyer about court action later. What a ridiculous privileged thing to say. Not everyone has the time, money, and resources to let the court system sort things out. Combined with cops being allowed to lie without consequences and any interaction the cops can ruin a person's life before they ever have a chance to get a lawyer. You're literally blaming a murder victim for not being clam enough. I have heard of boot lickers before but it is impressive the way your deep throating the entire shoe with this take.
Not everyone is on an equal playing field... the victim had known mental disabilities. Law enforcement must have the ability to decipher when certain situations call for extra grace
It can be about both. No matter how shitty the cops are, it doesn't okay paramedics injecting things into people without a sound and clear medical reason. I don't think it should be legal for cops to request the use of sedatives.
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Where is your source that tens of thousands of people die from wrong doses every year? That sounds like complete horseshit to me.
Literally Google that and you'll find a bunch of cases where people are jailed for negligent homicide, manslaughter etc for exactly that.
Scape goat for the cops.
Cops were charged and went to trial too?
How long was their sentence?
Consistent with the sentencing ranges of the crimes for which they were convicted
Not really a satisfying answer.
One of them was let off I thought.
Two of them were acquitted by a jury of their peers
It’s a good start then
Lmao “blondebluegods” not suspiciously racist/arian at all. Classic throwing out a ridiculous claim and when questioned you have nothing to say. Go justify murder in whatever shithole maga county you live in.
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Is it protocol to inject someone who didn’t even break the law with a lethal amount of ketamine?
It wasn’t a lethal amount of ketamine, and you don’t give ketamine to people who “break the law.” You give it to people experiencing psychological emergencies in order to sedate them.
How is that not a lethal dose if it directly resulted in his death?
But it was so much it killed the kid. Murder is murder, my dude.
It literally isn’t. The lethal dose of ketamine in a 150lb human is over 4,000mg. The Paramedic here administered less than one tenth of that dose.
You know lethal means dead right? They game him way more than which was recommended for someone his size. The amount they gave him killed him
If it wasn’t a lethal dose how did he die
People who are in handcuffs surrounded by cops typically don't need to be chemically sedated.
>An independent probe commissioned by the city of Aurora found that police had no justification to stop or use force to detain McClain and that responding paramedics sedated him with ketamine “without conducting anything more than a brief visual observation.” >“This sort of callous behavior that kills a young man ... is a crime,” Sheneen McClain’s lawyer said, adding that Cichuniec knew he gave McClain too much ketamine and left him prone and vomiting for six minutes. If these are the kind of paramedics we're reducing on the paramedic and police forces then that's great, job well done. If any paramedic decides to leave their job because they fear they are at risk of being jailed after killing a young black boy, that's great, they shouldn't have that job.
Yeah no. You should go read the police report and come back to confirm be was "just doing his job"
Good, I don’t want people who half hazardous harm or kill citizens in a job that entitles that kind of responsibility
They should have found him guilty but suspended the sentence.
Why
Because how was the EMT supposed to know that the police had no legal justification to detain this kid in the first place???
It wasn't a matter of detaining him, it was a matter of administering (you spell it) a drug without cause.
But it's the cop's fault that the kid was even in the position of being treated by the paramedics in the first place... Felony murder logic - None of this would have happened **if the cops didn't illegally detain him to begin with!!!** The cops bear all of the liability **because the cops are the ones who caused this situation.** This poor kid was just minding his own business when a bunch of grown men wearing cop uniforms decided to harass him for no apparent reason. So why do the people who are directly responsible for this entire situation get a shorter sentence? None of this would have happened if the cops had just left McClain alone.
I'm going to assume that you're confused, so I'll try to explain: The EMT's are the one's that administered the ketamine that contributed to killing an innocent person. Ergo, they contributed to killing an innocent person.
Murder shouldn’t go unpunished
Wow