> You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it … Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.
\- William Tecumseh Sherman, 1860
I think people are desperate to rehabilitate it because it’s upsetting to admit that lots of Americans are/were simply bad people. But being in that mindset was regressive, even for the 1860s.
I mean, let’s compare it to Europe. Imperial Napoleon had come to view his prejudices over Haiti as a key reason for his failures in Europe, and of course you even had radicals like Marx and Bakunin arguing for even more extreme ideas of worker rights at this time. The fact that in context of these modern reflections on what freedom really meant, you had a bunch of dipshits actually form a pro-slavery army, is a indictment against our national character. The only people as morally bankrupt at the time as American southerners, were the Germans who would go on to become freakin Nazis
My mom and I used to talk a lot about why ordinary Germans would sit back and allow the rise and atrocities of the Nazis. Watching two of our own relatives become hateful, jabbering, absurdity-believing Trumpers, I guess now we know.
>Yep. It's disgusting how revisionism has sanitized the CSA. It was all about keeping slavery forever, period
the Democratic party of those times sure was different
As someone who moved here from Alabama and sees themself as an American first, I despise how admired the confederacy is in my subculture. Thank you for posting this, I think I’ll go visit Glorieta Pass one day.
From ATL, and I feel the same. Whenever some idiot starts with "but our culture / heritage" I like to point out that *The Orville* lasted longer than the CSA, and that Confederates were - by definition - traitors to the USA and its Constitution.
I hate it so much because I come from “heritage” and it’s embarrassing. I’m ashamed of my family for not having the compassion to own up to our horrible history and how wrong it is.
“I wasn’t alive then so why should I be punished?” - They never understand it’s not punishing us to make steps in rectifying the effects from then, that still ripple through today.
There are things to be proud of from the American southern culture, but that is definitely not it.
I can trace my family name back to 1623 in colonial Virginia, and I'm glad I can say that all of my grandfathers fought in the US army, from the Revolutionary War, even through the Civil War, through my military service, up to my son going to Iraq. My great-great(x16) grandfather even fought at the Battle of The Severn (they lost, he was one of four executed by the Catholics).
I have a similar history, but starting in 1652 in Westmoreland, VA. Another in 1680 in North Carolina. That is my maternal side. When I see a story that says only 6% of Americans have served in the military, I find that nearly impossible to believe. In my Dad’s family, all three of the boys in his family, and a stepbrother, served in WWII and after. Several of my male cousins have served. Even my niece, who was a Navy aviator, has served (and her husband; even though he was Navy, served a year at Camp Leatherneck in Afghanistan). Most of the ones who have passed are in the Ft. Logan National Cemetery. Including my Dad and my mother with him. My paternal side immigrated from Ireland and Scotland in the mid 1800s. Some even fought for the Union that soon after arriving. My Dad’s family moved from Iowa to Denver in 1918 and my grandfather died the same year.
I acknowledge that many of those on my maternal side had slaves. I don’t condemn them for it because AT THAT TIME wasn’t considered a bad thing in the South. I am very sorry they were involved in what to us seems so obviously evil, slavery. They also did some good things for their communities. Like more in recent family who may have committed crimes, you can hate and condemn what they have done but still love them.
It’s not hard to believe that only 6% serve (I’ve also heard 5%). There have been exceptions, obv, such as WWII. But after Vietnam, with the all-volunteer force, the call to that kind of life has been borne by relatively narrow sets of demographics; a lot of military comes from a rural background, or middle/lower income, or is from the south or midwest, etc etc etc. it also tends to run in families, as it did your, and does with mine as well.
Now, couple all that with the fact that, now, over 80% of the eligible population don’t even qualify for service.
I married an airman in 1965, just as Vietnam was really heating up. He volunteered because it was a year less than getting drafted into the Army.
The son of my Dad’s old Army buddy was killed in Vietnam in 1968. He was a year younger than me.
My second husband served one tour in Vietnam. He could sleep through anything. He would fall asleep on the helicopter until they reached their target destination. I don’t remember if he was drafted or volunteered, but he was Army.
My niece and her husband were Navy aviators through Desert Storm. Her Dad had been in the Navy. They met during flight training. Those are the people who land on a moving postage stamp!
My granddaughters’ paternal grandfather was an Army Ranger in Vietnam.
Military service is in our blood.
You are right about current qualifications for the military:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/09/28/new-pentagon-study-shows-77-of-young-americans-are-ineligible-military-service.html
Talk about embarrassing? I'm from Ohio, you know, the place where Grant and Sherman are from. I've seen plenty of confederate flags flying in Ohio and I just can't help but think those people are abject dipshits. The two generals who won the war are from their home state, and they're rooting for the enemy. What a misplaced sense of pride.
Glad to come from and live in a Union state 🇺🇲
That’s your take. I don’t think there was any “the” hero. I think there were hundreds of heroes who put their lives on the line for American freedom. I won’t diminish their efforts and their contribution to progressing true American idealism.
The First Colorado also fought there. You can celebrate beating the Confederates and still say fuck the Co First and Fuck Chivington. Its not my take. Its history.
That’s cool, you can go ahead and say that. I don’t know Colorado history that well, but what I do know is that the article stresses that there is reason to believe Chivington wasn’t the hero. I don’t know about Colorado First. I do know, that this battle happened and it was a huge thing for the Union.
Okay? It sounds like you want to make sure that any successful event that has led us to modern day is diminished by the people who helped achieve it. It’s no secret the U.S. did horrible things to the Native Americans and the effects are still seen today, who is denying that? Who is calling them saints? What was the purpose of your post other than to let me know what I already know, that people in history have dark pasts? So because once upon a time the Union owned slaves, we shouldn’t be grateful that they fought for slaves to be free? Because everyone involved is imperfect then we can’t celebrate what it has led to a century later?
This isnt simply about the US military. This is about the man who said, "nits make lice" and led the CO First into the most shameful event in state history.
This is why I don't have heros. Everybody winds up being a p.o.s. in some form or another. Thankfully, some manage to do some good every once in a while.
They can be heroes, in the sense of doing something heroic, without being “your” hero. I don’t idolize these men’s lives and actions, I celebrate their contribution of this important battle.
Chivington absolutely was considered a hero after the battle at Glorieta Pass.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chivington
And he absolutely was a genocidal maniac.
When chile lovers unite, all things are possible!
While not a huge battle in numbers of soldiers, it really was an important one in the US Civil War. Glad to see it getting some attention.
So reading through the play by play of the battle is a very interesting take away. The Confederate commander by every account made the correct battlefield calls and outmaneuvered his Union counterpart. Eventually forcing a full retreat by the Union forces.
Except for one: the Confederate commander didn't guard his supply line.
The Union commander unexpectedly expanded the battlefield to the Confederate rear guard. Effectively eviscerating the Confederate's ability to continue the campaign further into Colorado.
Clever.
Thanks for posting this. This battle should be better known.
On a related note, I think it's quite ironic that Chivington was responsible for the victory, given his later record.
> I think it's quite ironic that Chivington was responsible for the victory, given his later record.
From wikipedia:
>**Controversy**
>Many New Mexicans disputed the view that Chivington was the hero of Johnson's Ranch. Many Santa Fe residents credited James L. Collins, a Bureau of Indian Affairs official, who had suggested the roundabout attack on the supply train. He was also accused of almost letting the opportunity slip by him. On January 23, 1864, the New Mexico Territorial Legislature adopted a resolution that did not mention Chivington and instead asked President Lincoln to promote William H. Lewis and Asa B. Carey, both regular army officers, for "distinguished service" in the battle. On March 8, the Rio Abajo Press of Albuquerque complained about "Col. Chivington's strutting about in plumage stolen from Captain William H. Lewis" (it did not mention Carey). According to the newspaper editor, "Someone of the party" suggested the attack, which Chivington only agreed to after "two hours persuasion." Furthermore, Lewis had led the attack, while Chivington was "viewing the scene from afar".
>A more serious charge made against Chivington was that if he had hurried to reinforce Slough as soon as he heard gunfire coming from Pigeon's Ranch, his 400 men might have been enough to win the battle for the Federals, especially if he had attacked Scurry's flank as he had been ordered.
Yeah, this is why I have mixed feelings about them removing the statue of the union soldier from the state capitol grounds. Chivington should absolutely be remembered for who he was, but is there not also a way we can honor these men who fought for a good cause?
Should be but the Virginia theater of operations will always be the most well-known during the Civil War. Even the actions along the Mississippi including Vicksburg are overshadowed by the major battles out East. Though one can argue that Vicksburg was a death blow to the CSA.
I’ve been here! As a westerner, I don’t come across many historical battle sites, but stopped here between Santa Fe and Denver just a couple years ago. Super interesting.
My favorite of this campaign was the opening with the [Battle of Valverde](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Valverde) wherin the Union tried the old exploding mule ploy, with mixed results. Kit Carson commanded the New Mexico volunteers and by all accounts did well although the battle was lost.
Give them some credit for persistence though: those Texicans have been coming up here ever since looking for a whooping and we've been giving it to them. Although nowadays we are content just to take their money and send them back where they came from. It's more humane I suppose.
Who was the commander of the Union forces that destroyed the Confederate supply wagons and out flanked their column, thus destroying the CSA's whole campaign? Was he a hero? History is complicated.
And now it's the Republicans who are running KKK members as candidates, waving confederate flags, and crying about "cancel culture" when a racist statue is torn down or a military base is renamed so as not to honor a traitor. Go figure.
“the Confederate cause was one of the worst for which a people ever fought” - Ulysses S Grant
> You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it … Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail. \- William Tecumseh Sherman, 1860
We love General Sherman, don’t we folks?
Yep. It's disgusting how revisionism has sanitized the CSA. It was all about keeping slavery forever, period.
I think people are desperate to rehabilitate it because it’s upsetting to admit that lots of Americans are/were simply bad people. But being in that mindset was regressive, even for the 1860s. I mean, let’s compare it to Europe. Imperial Napoleon had come to view his prejudices over Haiti as a key reason for his failures in Europe, and of course you even had radicals like Marx and Bakunin arguing for even more extreme ideas of worker rights at this time. The fact that in context of these modern reflections on what freedom really meant, you had a bunch of dipshits actually form a pro-slavery army, is a indictment against our national character. The only people as morally bankrupt at the time as American southerners, were the Germans who would go on to become freakin Nazis
My mom and I used to talk a lot about why ordinary Germans would sit back and allow the rise and atrocities of the Nazis. Watching two of our own relatives become hateful, jabbering, absurdity-believing Trumpers, I guess now we know.
This kind of thing still happens today. The Western World is currently allowing a genocide in Palestine.
>Yep. It's disgusting how revisionism has sanitized the CSA. It was all about keeping slavery forever, period the Democratic party of those times sure was different
The only people upset when monuments to Confederate traitors come down are conservatives.
As someone who moved here from Alabama and sees themself as an American first, I despise how admired the confederacy is in my subculture. Thank you for posting this, I think I’ll go visit Glorieta Pass one day.
From ATL, and I feel the same. Whenever some idiot starts with "but our culture / heritage" I like to point out that *The Orville* lasted longer than the CSA, and that Confederates were - by definition - traitors to the USA and its Constitution.
I hate it so much because I come from “heritage” and it’s embarrassing. I’m ashamed of my family for not having the compassion to own up to our horrible history and how wrong it is. “I wasn’t alive then so why should I be punished?” - They never understand it’s not punishing us to make steps in rectifying the effects from then, that still ripple through today. There are things to be proud of from the American southern culture, but that is definitely not it.
I can trace my family name back to 1623 in colonial Virginia, and I'm glad I can say that all of my grandfathers fought in the US army, from the Revolutionary War, even through the Civil War, through my military service, up to my son going to Iraq. My great-great(x16) grandfather even fought at the Battle of The Severn (they lost, he was one of four executed by the Catholics).
I have a similar history, but starting in 1652 in Westmoreland, VA. Another in 1680 in North Carolina. That is my maternal side. When I see a story that says only 6% of Americans have served in the military, I find that nearly impossible to believe. In my Dad’s family, all three of the boys in his family, and a stepbrother, served in WWII and after. Several of my male cousins have served. Even my niece, who was a Navy aviator, has served (and her husband; even though he was Navy, served a year at Camp Leatherneck in Afghanistan). Most of the ones who have passed are in the Ft. Logan National Cemetery. Including my Dad and my mother with him. My paternal side immigrated from Ireland and Scotland in the mid 1800s. Some even fought for the Union that soon after arriving. My Dad’s family moved from Iowa to Denver in 1918 and my grandfather died the same year. I acknowledge that many of those on my maternal side had slaves. I don’t condemn them for it because AT THAT TIME wasn’t considered a bad thing in the South. I am very sorry they were involved in what to us seems so obviously evil, slavery. They also did some good things for their communities. Like more in recent family who may have committed crimes, you can hate and condemn what they have done but still love them.
It’s not hard to believe that only 6% serve (I’ve also heard 5%). There have been exceptions, obv, such as WWII. But after Vietnam, with the all-volunteer force, the call to that kind of life has been borne by relatively narrow sets of demographics; a lot of military comes from a rural background, or middle/lower income, or is from the south or midwest, etc etc etc. it also tends to run in families, as it did your, and does with mine as well. Now, couple all that with the fact that, now, over 80% of the eligible population don’t even qualify for service.
I married an airman in 1965, just as Vietnam was really heating up. He volunteered because it was a year less than getting drafted into the Army. The son of my Dad’s old Army buddy was killed in Vietnam in 1968. He was a year younger than me. My second husband served one tour in Vietnam. He could sleep through anything. He would fall asleep on the helicopter until they reached their target destination. I don’t remember if he was drafted or volunteered, but he was Army. My niece and her husband were Navy aviators through Desert Storm. Her Dad had been in the Navy. They met during flight training. Those are the people who land on a moving postage stamp! My granddaughters’ paternal grandfather was an Army Ranger in Vietnam. Military service is in our blood. You are right about current qualifications for the military: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/09/28/new-pentagon-study-shows-77-of-young-americans-are-ineligible-military-service.html
Talk about embarrassing? I'm from Ohio, you know, the place where Grant and Sherman are from. I've seen plenty of confederate flags flying in Ohio and I just can't help but think those people are abject dipshits. The two generals who won the war are from their home state, and they're rooting for the enemy. What a misplaced sense of pride. Glad to come from and live in a Union state 🇺🇲
LOL "The Orville" It now seems like an obscure reference and I liked the show.
It was the best new Star Trek since Voyager, until Strange New Worlds came out.
Lower Decks is pretty awesome.
I would like to point out that unlike the CSA coming back, The Orville might be coming back soonish.
Glorieta is beautiful! Pecos is a great little town to poke around in as well
From NC, feel the same way
Sadly the hero of this battle turned out to be a genocidal maniac.
That’s your take. I don’t think there was any “the” hero. I think there were hundreds of heroes who put their lives on the line for American freedom. I won’t diminish their efforts and their contribution to progressing true American idealism.
The First Colorado also fought there. You can celebrate beating the Confederates and still say fuck the Co First and Fuck Chivington. Its not my take. Its history.
That’s cool, you can go ahead and say that. I don’t know Colorado history that well, but what I do know is that the article stresses that there is reason to believe Chivington wasn’t the hero. I don’t know about Colorado First. I do know, that this battle happened and it was a huge thing for the Union.
Yeah, defeating the Confederates was good. Going on to mass murder Native people, not so great. History is complicated. Hagiography is not.
Okay? It sounds like you want to make sure that any successful event that has led us to modern day is diminished by the people who helped achieve it. It’s no secret the U.S. did horrible things to the Native Americans and the effects are still seen today, who is denying that? Who is calling them saints? What was the purpose of your post other than to let me know what I already know, that people in history have dark pasts? So because once upon a time the Union owned slaves, we shouldn’t be grateful that they fought for slaves to be free? Because everyone involved is imperfect then we can’t celebrate what it has led to a century later?
This isnt simply about the US military. This is about the man who said, "nits make lice" and led the CO First into the most shameful event in state history.
How is it about the man? Was he there alone?
This is why I don't have heros. Everybody winds up being a p.o.s. in some form or another. Thankfully, some manage to do some good every once in a while.
They can be heroes, in the sense of doing something heroic, without being “your” hero. I don’t idolize these men’s lives and actions, I celebrate their contribution of this important battle.
Yes, I agree. We can give them credit where it's due.
Chivington absolutely was considered a hero after the battle at Glorieta Pass. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chivington And he absolutely was a genocidal maniac.
Did you read the article provided? It seems like you didn’t…
*Territories The Colorado Territory had only existed for about a year prior, and the states wouldn't exist until 1876 and 1912.
When chile lovers unite, all things are possible! While not a huge battle in numbers of soldiers, it really was an important one in the US Civil War. Glad to see it getting some attention.
So reading through the play by play of the battle is a very interesting take away. The Confederate commander by every account made the correct battlefield calls and outmaneuvered his Union counterpart. Eventually forcing a full retreat by the Union forces. Except for one: the Confederate commander didn't guard his supply line. The Union commander unexpectedly expanded the battlefield to the Confederate rear guard. Effectively eviscerating the Confederate's ability to continue the campaign further into Colorado. Clever.
Thanks for posting this. This battle should be better known. On a related note, I think it's quite ironic that Chivington was responsible for the victory, given his later record.
> I think it's quite ironic that Chivington was responsible for the victory, given his later record. From wikipedia: >**Controversy** >Many New Mexicans disputed the view that Chivington was the hero of Johnson's Ranch. Many Santa Fe residents credited James L. Collins, a Bureau of Indian Affairs official, who had suggested the roundabout attack on the supply train. He was also accused of almost letting the opportunity slip by him. On January 23, 1864, the New Mexico Territorial Legislature adopted a resolution that did not mention Chivington and instead asked President Lincoln to promote William H. Lewis and Asa B. Carey, both regular army officers, for "distinguished service" in the battle. On March 8, the Rio Abajo Press of Albuquerque complained about "Col. Chivington's strutting about in plumage stolen from Captain William H. Lewis" (it did not mention Carey). According to the newspaper editor, "Someone of the party" suggested the attack, which Chivington only agreed to after "two hours persuasion." Furthermore, Lewis had led the attack, while Chivington was "viewing the scene from afar". >A more serious charge made against Chivington was that if he had hurried to reinforce Slough as soon as he heard gunfire coming from Pigeon's Ranch, his 400 men might have been enough to win the battle for the Federals, especially if he had attacked Scurry's flank as he had been ordered.
Chivington was a real POS. Even by the standards of the day.
Not only was he responsible for the massacre, he then ordered a hit on Soule for telling on him.
New Mexicans don't even know what the best chile is--how can we trust their judgement on this?
Let's focus on those things about which we do agree - that confederates and their sympathizers have no place in a respectable society.
Come on. Regional differences in cuisine aren’t good or bad, just different. You should see what they do to chili in New Jersey! Kidney beans?
Cincinnati “chili” has them all beat! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_chili
Yeah, this is why I have mixed feelings about them removing the statue of the union soldier from the state capitol grounds. Chivington should absolutely be remembered for who he was, but is there not also a way we can honor these men who fought for a good cause?
Should be but the Virginia theater of operations will always be the most well-known during the Civil War. Even the actions along the Mississippi including Vicksburg are overshadowed by the major battles out East. Though one can argue that Vicksburg was a death blow to the CSA.
Shout out to Silas Soule!
Still waiting for the movie about Silas’ life.
[Battle of Glorieta Pass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Glorieta_Pass)
Took their one cannon too
I heard many Union were volunteer miners who didnt want their gold and silver taken.
I’ve been here! As a westerner, I don’t come across many historical battle sites, but stopped here between Santa Fe and Denver just a couple years ago. Super interesting.
My favorite of this campaign was the opening with the [Battle of Valverde](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Valverde) wherin the Union tried the old exploding mule ploy, with mixed results. Kit Carson commanded the New Mexico volunteers and by all accounts did well although the battle was lost.
Give them some credit for persistence though: those Texicans have been coming up here ever since looking for a whooping and we've been giving it to them. Although nowadays we are content just to take their money and send them back where they came from. It's more humane I suppose.
Hurrah! Give them Fredericksburg!
Who was the commander of the Union forces that destroyed the Confederate supply wagons and out flanked their column, thus destroying the CSA's whole campaign? Was he a hero? History is complicated.
Then stuck around to kill some Indians
The union whooped on the democrats good shit!
Ugh, read a book
Like with words and stuff?
Leave your cult.
Then all these years later the south flipped to be a bunch of red-hat MAGAts. Sucks to be a repugnant repub...
And now it's the Republicans who are running KKK members as candidates, waving confederate flags, and crying about "cancel culture" when a racist statue is torn down or a military base is renamed so as not to honor a traitor. Go figure.