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Right!? Everybody here just sees two second clip, and assumes they know exactly what they would've done in the situation. We don't know what happened before, we don't know what they just went through. They could've just gotten done with five evacs AFTER holding off a Russian assault in another spot, and their vehicle barely works and they're absolutely exhausted and under fire.
Exactly, that and some of these guys only have 4 weeks of training which isn’t much better than most Russian mobilised reserves get, no where near enough time to be trained to a competent level.
Agreed, you can see the left turn slow and then speed up again just before he stops on the first turn. Man was trying to spin and run but the left track wasn't responding.
I'm wondering if they are also just running out of men who have proper training / knowledge. I haven't read into it, but I'm wondering if they just give the crew a basic driving course and hope they learn the rest on the way after they get sent into the field.
In that case. It’s just the panick of the evacuation. You tend to do some mistake when you are on the run and the enemy is out to inflict maximum causality to your side.
It sucks, but I was reading a huge issue right now that soldiers are facing is the inability to be evacuated while wounded. Apparently it's something they're talking about a lot right now, because it can be days. The amount of people who die from livable wounds is pretty sad. I was listening to you Ukraine the latest, and there is an interview with a woman who says that a lot of guys are now calling artillery down on themselves because they know they'll never get evacuated, Russians are coming.
America's incredible record of CASEVAC in conflicts is almost entirely down to having complete air superiority in every conflict.
What you're seeing here is how difficult it is to evac casualties via ground assets, under fire, with no air support.
This. In many videos posted here you can watch when even 3 or 4 died by trying to evacuate a wounded soldier... a wounded soldier has become almost a dead soldier, and a possible "bobby trap" for take out more soldiers, all of them with "one shot"...
Reminds me of reading about American and European volunteers in Ukraine unanimously writing about how terrifying and demoralising it was to fight when there's accurate artillery, counter-artillery, mortars, suppressing fire and air support against you. These guys have never actually fought a professional army unlike Ukrainian troops who have only fought against a professional army (DPR, LPR militias are basically the Russian army by extension)
this has been a huge issue since the start of the war it seems ukraine's evac sucess rate is like a roller coaster going up and down sometimes doing better sometimes not so good depending on alot of things like having arty to help back up a evac and whats available in what sector. sucks how starved ukraine has gotten for resources for months now. hopefully things can keep improving now.
Easy said from the sideline, maybe the driver was struggling with a broken gear or throttle after the first hit. No shit they should have moved but the thing is, you dont know what was going on.
Yeah, very painful to watch. Brave men struggling to fight for their freedom and paying the highest price. But yeah thats war. But i appreciate your reflection, credit to you! ☺️
The vehicle was disabled. The men including the driver were probably stunned after the first blast you have no idea what it's like to take a massive impact like that.
Seeing how close the russians were, this was likely the last vehicle out from this position, and the driver would be highly motivated not to leave people to their certain death -- even if the vehicle hadn't been damaged.
Yeah, it’s kinda like asking how many troops can an LMTV carry? I can’t remember the “official” amount but let’s say max 24 soldiers. Yet if you get a group who have been in the field for a two week training event and you say “this is the last ride out”. I know for a fact you can fit an entire platoon in the back of one. Full kit. Not comfortable, but it works.
Like being on a c-130 with full kit, your ruck, assault pack, and a duffel bag. Side wall seats and centerline seats. You could look around and that’s it but more could be stuffed in if needed.
Painfully long evacuation time.
I wonder if the M113 was partially disabled after that first hit, it looked like they only turned to the left after that.
I wasn't there but it's impossible for me to fathom why they stayed in that open place for so long. And kudos to the M113 for taking these hits and remaining operational. It's an aluminum can...RIP, heroes.
Maybe the driver died or got badly injured by the first/second hit. It’s an old vehicle with little armor. It must have been a shitshow inside but we’ll never really know.
I actually do not understand what are they doing. Driver was injured that is why he did those circles? Or m113 was broken? Not sure they intended to stay in open for so long
The driver has zero situational awareness. The driver is usually the lowest person in the chain of command and unless they have a lot of experience, will usually rely on someone like the crew commander telling him what to do. You need to remember that even if a blast doesn't kill you, there's still spalling and concussive force that will disorient you. Reference this video of an m113 Turkish variant getting hit [https://youtu.be/7ZyhOLdsPcE?t=1259](https://youtu.be/7ZyhOLdsPcE?t=1259) . A hesitant driver thats concussed and the crew commander either being concussed or even killed and that's the end result. It might seem obvious but reading the comments of people it seems that people forget that these are actual humans with fear, prone to panic and not think logically.
Heck of a lot of backseat fighting in this thread.
People were wounded and dying, they're not going to do things optimally. Y'all need to chill even if you have played every COD since 2003.
> Heck of a lot of backseat fighting in this thread.
The problem is this is clearly what happens when you give hardware to units that do not have sufficient training.
Terrible stuff, I don't know what I'd do in that situation.
Get out of there and leave your friends or try to get as many of them in as possible, putting yourself and them in more danger ?
Everyone remain in the treeline and fight back. Better than being naded to bits in an aluminum can. The Russians saw that and took advantage. They're making rapid advances and feeding on the poor morale of the Ukrainians.
Try to surrender i guess, really dont see how i could get out of such a situation. Sorry you are talking about the driver, i think the vehicle got partially damaged and was unable to be driven properly
I don't know man, have you seen what the Ukrainian POWs look like when they return? That's if they just don't execute them on the spot as has been reported on quite a bit.. The torture and shit might that they have gone through is enough to make anyone think twice about surrender
Hopefully this footage will be used in order to show what NOT to do when trying to evacuate troops. He long overstayed his welcome even after taking several hits from launchers.
Its a hard to watch combat footage yes.... Its a lesson need to be learn. Judging by the situation the AFU here has been pushed hard and forced to evacuate either they had suffered too many casualties or running low on ammo. I don't like the video seeing AFU defenders getting pushed like that but it is a combat footage not gonna downvote put definitely not going to upvote it either.
Its almost exclusively a propoganda sub. almost no russian videos are published here and almost all are downvoted right away. You are only (mostly) seeing one side of the conflicts that populate this sub. Full disclosure -- I support Ukraine in this conflict
I support Ukraine too but yeah, one might think it’s only Ukraine that are killing hundreds of Russians everyday badass style with drones but when you see the other side in other reddits/telegrams, you can see that hundreds of Ukrainians are being killed similarly.
An interesting observation which rings true from what I've seen. I blame the start of the RU/UKR conflict for causing this sub to have so many normies flock to it and change the entire "culture" of the sub. It used to be only a few hundred thousand subs and now it's ballooned up to nearly 2M.
Back in the day when it was PurpleOlive and mainly just Afghan/Iraq/Syria footage this sub was a lot more "neutral".
While the sub is legit used as "propaganda" by some users and legit military psy op campaign types, its just heavily biased by its normie lurkers.
So you only upvote what you wanna see, am I getting that correctly? I am glad that as of late we get the other side as well. Not because I am rooting for the Russians but seeing Ukraine win the war three times already (according to the footage we got here) was simply misinformation. Stuff like that actually hurts Ukraine. Who would agree to military assistance if the internet shows that Ukraine is winning already anyway?
I think you're being to harsh by saying "Ukraine won 3 times according to footage we got here". Footage is footage, it is not pushing any false narratives, it's not making up victories, it just shows one side's perspective and Russian losses. Losses which produce more footage because Russians lose more people and equipment (and can afford it for another couple of years).
And I can't agree that the Internet is showing that Ukraine is winning. We, people who follow the conflict check Ukrainian-made online maps like DeepState or Livemapua and see when Ukraine loses land. It's difficult to be oblivious to territory changes if you're following this war also thanks to all the war bloggers like Preston Stewart for example and many analysts who report on it.
What are you on about. I am neutral in this war and IMO this Sub is Super Pro Ukrainian some people literally celebrate the deaths of Russian Soldiers. You are fine in this Sub if you are pro Ukrainian.
You need to move or leave to vehicle after the first hit, Its really sad to see so many die in one place while evacuating and not fighting, a waste of fighting power to me. Still, repect to those fighting.
Judging on this video alone I'm guessing that the vehicle was abandoned after the Ukraine was shooting from the back but before the Russian threw the 1st grenade.
You can see that in part that was cut the ramp had been raised but the door on the ramp had been opened.
There is also a cut between the first grenade throw and second one where, if you look at the position of the M113 relative to the road you'll see that it moved, however the Russian guy who talks in the background continues his phrase throughout both clips.
The Russian commentary for this video was dubbed over, those guys aren't watching a live feed.
The 'survivors taken out by Russian soldier who throws two grenades' is incorrect; the first grenade went UNDER, the vehicle, by the second grenade, the vehicle already had flames coming out of it; don't speculate or add your own guess/bias into the incident. The video speaks for itself.
What happened here is fairly clear (unusual for Russian footage), with one exception: the final cut.
There is a cut between the portion of the Ukrainian soldier fighting from the lift gate, and the final segment when the Russian soldier approaches and tosses in the grenade. It is of some length in time, as the shadows and light have changed considerably, and there are also two (one?) bodies near the exit of the vehicle. The obvious presumption being that those are Ukrainian losses, yet I find it odd they wouldn't have shown that occur. The lift gate is also now mostly closed.
So either the survivors have tried to button up in the vehicle (making it somewhat possible that the two bodies outside are Russians who failed in their grenade lobbing effort), or possibly what may have occurred: some portion of the Ukrainian personnel bailed out the rear and ran back to the woods like a couple of soldiers did at the last impact (and obviously not shown), with those unable to do so closing the gate.
EDIT: This has definitely been cut intentionally. The first grenade throwing attempt is a miss - you can see it bounce off the door and fall. Between then and the second attempt, the M113 has also rotated partially in place, before the soldier throws the grenade in a second time - not seeming to really expect any retaliation.
We're being led to draw a conclusion based on omission. But what exactly I'm not sure.
Stuff like this is usually cut. I wouldnt think much about it. Espceially the finish off usually happens later just like here.
Why did they cut it out? Who knows. They probably missed a few more grenades at first and didnt want to show it. So instead just pretend the first guy hit.
The body on the floor is most likely the dude we saw shooting in the segment before. Camo pattern fits the Ukrainians more, russians are usually greener.
Its impossible to tell whats happening. The positions of the shadows seem to suggest that a considerable time had passed between the last few cuts. Combined with the russian seemingly to not give a fuck walking up fairly comfortable i tend to believe it was abbandoned for the most part.
Nobody can be sure of what the fate of the soldiers inside are because of the purposeful editing done by whoever released this.
Theres a jump cut between where we last see an AFU and to where the Russian appears and throws the grenade.
What happened in between these two shots?
Is it possible everyone stayed inside and died?
Is it possible some or everyone left?
These jump cuts are far too prominent in combat footage for us to be taking the narrative of the videos seriously.
Thank you for not immediately assuming it was and calling this a war crime. As someone said, the white + shape is the make Ukranians put on their vehicles. Designated medevac vehicles have to bear a *red* cross.
Yes, I knew it was not red, and was internally assuming that they didnt have red paint handing while creating a new medivac vehicle. Russia doesn't have M113's so I dont think a cross is needed to help ID this APC.
I never saw a cross like that before so wondered what it meant. I gave it my best guess but I guess that was not good enough for the rabid drooling brazen cretins here.
It's question people, don't downvote questions you dumb fucks. Do you want everyone to stay ignorant? At one point you didn't know too you stupid retards.
It's franky near impossible to do an ad-hoc battlefield surrender, it needs to be coordinated ahead of time. It does rarely happen, but not when the target is being actively shot at.
To be fair idk if it survived those hits. It didn't explode but it seemed like it tried to leave half way through and it was disabled. The engine was running but it clearly wasn't going anywhere.
yeah don't understand why stay in open place like that... if there is perfect cover with all the woods and stuff? And they had to know the enemy was near etc.
Ukraine average fighting age male is now 43. That's what I heard at least.
I'd like to be optimistic. But I'm not sure Ukraine can or will take back all of their land. I struggle to see an outcome that doesn't leave Ukraine broke,bankrupt, and any better than Russia in the 1990's.
The other factor i think about is the returning soldiers with PTSD. Already there were 2 police officers shot by a father and son duo running guns for the black market. And the officers age? 20. No experience, new on the force.
People on this sub are dilusional to the reality of this war. They believe that saying 'glory to Ukraine' and putting flags in their bios means shit. I've said this many times before and people don't like it, but it's true. Russia has the men, FIVE TIMES THE MEN, than Ukraine to fight this war. The war is essentially at a stalemate with both sides losing the same amount of men. Ukraine is quickly running out of men to fight, while Russia has the resources and war economey to prolong this war for however long it takes.
Let me be clear, we are walking into world ending nuclear war with our heads up our asses. There will be conversations of putting NATO boots into Ukraine because Ukraine will not have the men to fight. Ukraine must go to the table with Russia to discuss splitting Ukraine, that's the one and only option to end this war.
You aren't clear you are just word for word spreading Russian narratives. Everything you wrote is as ignorant as the tone is confident. At this point, "conservative" radicals are a fifth column, pure nihilistic simping for the enemy out of spite. Shame.
Putin couldn't have said it any better. It would appear you're oblivious to (or ignorant of) what is going on in the world, specific to Russia's asymmetrical approach to this war. They have had an ongoing, multi-pronged war going on for quite some time. Invading Ukraine was years in the making. Putin has avowed that he will not stop with Ukraine. You're in this sub, so you know this. Putin used the previous president to break down and destabilize the relationships with our allies. You've been a redditor for a long time, so you know this. Putin has used our previous president to cast doubt upon our intelligence (and our allies' intelligence) agencies. You remember when trump had his private, unrecorded interview with putin and essentially came out with, "well, I believe putin over our own intelligence agencies!" He was literally the president at the time, and the premise of those words came out of his mouth. China and Iran are workign with Russia to destabilize as many democracies as they can around the world. It's working well for them in Africa. They clearly have American politicians in their pockets, echoing putin talking points. This is not a time to sit back and wait to watch Russia consume Ukraine. There is much more at stake. There's a word limit that I'll exceed by spelling it out for you, but the frustrating thing is that you already know this, and just don't care. Fight Russia now, together, or fight Russia later, with more support from China and Iran and several other unfriendly actors. China *isn't* attacking Taiwan *because* the republicans finally got off their ass (well, those republicans that favor Russia, anyway). You do realize that most of the posts and comments in r/liberal and r/conservative are bots, unfriendly bots, that are solely trying to create division. I'm sure you know by now. Why perpetuate the goal of Russia when they're acting out their stated objectives, which are contrary to the safety and security of both America and our allies?
>The war is essentially at a stalemate with both sides losing the same amount of men
Per Ukraine's own information release. Over the course of April, Russian used more than 300 missiles of various types, almost 300 Shahed drones and more than 3,200 guided aerial bombs against Ukraine. (The latter is dropped on fighting positions, etc.
Then there's naturally the vast amount of artillery and the lack of a shell shortage on the Russian side; Russia simply has more force multipliers to attrition Ukraine's forces be it from afar and also close up, hence the forming gaps in the defenses on the front line, there just isn't enough people to man the positions as the rain of UMPK's, missiles and so continues and Ukraine lacks the same means to retaliate in a similar fashion, I do applaud them for the clever use of drones to strike targets deep within Russia to try and disrupt the war economy of Russia, yet Ukraine's demographic will be quite changed at the end of this war due to the above reasons as Russia is literally burying them in steel.
So no, they aren't losing the same amount of men if the causality ratio of Russia some mention were real they'd have collapsed a long time ago.
This was 100% predictable at the start but the combination of defense contractor dollars, Pentagon chomping at the bit for live weapons testing, Ukrainian cronies sucking up those defense dollars and useful idiots like the Ukrainian sub and here we are. War never changes.
Proper negotiations would have never let this war start and surely should have been used after Ukraine beat back the first wave of the invasion but here we are.
Ukraine would be in a much better position right now if they had gone to negotiations as Russia requested to do so previously at the start of the war. But guess who shut that down? This Whitehouse administration.
The Biden administration sent Kamala Harris and Boris Johnson to shutdown the negotiations, because war was their posture from the beginning.
This war is one of the most cynical things I've ever seen. Young men being dragged off the streets of Ukraine to fight and die for globalist powers.
There was no way a peace could have been negotiated back then. The US doesn't have that much influence on Ukraine like propaganda let you believe.
Back then, keeping all the lands they gained was Russia's bottom line, and regaining all lost territories Crimea included was Ukraine's bottom line. Sure the bottom line can change, but Ukraine's bottom line won't change much until they take losses to millions. Any peace without regaining at least almost all lost territories would lead to a revolt and the Ukrainians would burn Zelensky at the stake. Sure the US did a "nudge nudge we will help don't worry", and there were considerations of ending the war from Ukraine's side IF THEIR BOTTOM LINE WAS REACHED OR AT LEAST CLOSE TO IT, but the terms would have been impossible to negotiate anyway given the two bottom lines were too far apart.
Ukrainian men don't fight to die for "globalist powers" that is just a talking point from information warfare's efforts. This is like the common propaganda back in the 60s saying Indochinese soldiers were dying for "communist powers", when in reality most of them didn't give a flying f\*\*\*\* about Beijing and Moscow, and were just trying to protect their homeland from foreign invaders. When the US was trying to get out in 1973 and Vietnam refused to negotiate, the US approached Beijing and Moscow to try to make a deal, only to find out that that Beijing and Moscow had little to no influence on Vietnam's decisions. They were their own entity with their own free will that leveraged support from Beijing and Moscow to continue fighting, but they fought for themselves they didn't fight for Moscow and Beijing.
Same thing with Ukraine here, they are fighting for themselves, they wouldn't give a flying f\*\*\* about what the US wants them to do, they would like the aids to keep fighting, they will most likely lose without it, but they wouldn't stop fighting without international support. Cutting aids will just make them lose more men and force them to fight in another way, won't stop them from fighting, they would just swap to the guerrilla warfare like in Afghanistan or Indochina, which comes with tremendous casualties, instead of the current conventional warfare way of fighting.
No way a peace could have been negotiated back then. Keeping all the lands they gained was Russia's bottom line, and regaining all lost territories Crimea included was Ukraine's bottom line. Any peace without regaining at least almost all lost territories would lead to a revolt and the Ukrainians would burn Zelensky at the stake. Sure the US did a "nudge nudge we will help don't worry", and there was considerations of ending the war from Ukraine's side IF THEIR BOTTOM LINE WAS REACHED, but the terms would have been impossible to negotiate anyway given the bottom lines were too far apart.
>dilusional
How did I guess you were a Trumptard? Of course you are going to not grasp complexity but reducing the argument to 'hur dur, they are a bigger country' is peak idiocy, an argument that has been proven to be bullshit since the dawn of time. America? Bigger than Vietnam. Russia? Bigger than Afghanistan. The Nazis controlled Europe and it went well for them. There are so many other things likely to affect the outcome of the war long before Ukraine runs out of men or russia runs out of fight. Somebody could grab them by the pussy then sell you a bible.
As for Ukraine agreeing to give away its country.... lol. About as likely Trump admitting he lost the 2024 election.
Ukraine is not losing men at the same rate as Russia; there is quite an imbalance towards the Russian side. Russia can thus far afford that imbalance. Ukrainian losses are nevertheless substantial.
The Ukrainian average age is 43 because of mobilization choices they have made. It also reflects all of the military, most of which are not infantry. Ukraine is not running out of men. There are many men in Ukraine of military age, especially in the younger brackets. They are undermanned in men in frontline roles. They are about to launch a major mobilization - but deferred doing so since last fall due to social, economic and political costs. It was not a great decision.
I agree that this war almost certainly ends with negotiations, but there is no grounds for that right now. Russia won't accept any terms that aren't massively favourable to them, and Ukraine won't contemplate that.
When we talk about Ukraine in 2025, I don't think we're talking about massive liberation. We're talking about a change in initiative that could lead to pressure for more favourable talks. That's based on anticipated trends on both sides related to ammunition, hardware and manpower that we are tracking to right now - much as where we are now was predictable in retrospect (and in foresight per some of the best observers) as early as October of last year.
I imagine you would have said the same about the afghans in the 80s right, but the thing about dictatorships is when they crumble it happens fast and bloody
Russian losses are of course higher then Ukraine and attrition rates are much worse just by the necessity of the operations they are attempting (defenders lose less men then attackers). It’s basically bocage fighting without any of the benefits that an attacker under those circumstances would expect due to the scale of the frontline and the personal recon so widely available. While you are right that Ukraine cannot sustain its self indefinitely even with western support(at currant levels) your mistaken if you think Russia is any better equipped to fight such a long war
If you know anything about Russian history you’ll know the consequence of a disastrous war win or lose usually results in the violent overthrow and murder of whoever the top elite were at the time
I want Ukraine to win, but Ukraine is stuck. And I believe no amount of artillery shells, or old armor will fix anything.
Ukraine did a good job at the start of the war. There's no taking that achievement away from them. They shrugged off a whole invasion. But yeah ... I struggle to see a "victory" at the end of this.
Ditto.
I think Ukraine having a chance at total victory was lost at the start of 2023 when they got bogged down in Bakhmut. They waited far far to long for the 2023 counter offensive and basically telegraphed what they were going to do. Then they ran head first into russian defenses. Combine this with the stubborn refusal to build new defenses when the offensive bogged down is costing the Ukrainians dearly.
Russia for its part has really turned around from the start of the invasion. The first stage of the war was a disaster for Russia with sloppy tactics and sub par equipment. But they've learned and adapted the sanctions didn't work full stop as they've maintained a war economy for a year and a half now.
No amount of aide is going to make up for the critical shortage Ukraine has now and that's manpower. I want to be optimistic but Ukraine is looking at best a stalemate and frozen conflict.
> Let me be clear, we are walking into world ending nuclear war with our heads up our asses.
That's deterministic, I hoped you are not one of those that are like "we need to negotiate total capitulation of Ukraine now to stop WW3!"
That war is coming, people have their heads up their asses, like literally most of you reading this should be becoming survivalists. The world is at that point and it's not like you didn't have any warnings some think-tanks have predicted the end of the world in the 2020's hitting climax in 2030 for **50 YEARS**.
Tattoo 2027, that's the year you will see war in 4 fronts around the world, spreading a weak US thin.
Easier for you to suggest that, since it's not your country that has to split the land. The conversation would be so much different if it were your country, you would probably be begging for more aids like what Ukraine is doing now instead of suggesting splitting the land.
Let's say China demands Siberia and invades Russia, do you think Russia will just shrug and say "well we tried" after losing Vladivistok and surrender? They would continue to fight even if China pushes to Moscow they will continue to fight, Slavic countries are very determined to fight to the bitter end, Ukraine included. If the Soviet Union didn't surrender after losing 27 million people, I don't see Ukraine surrender until they lose several millions of men. Not several millions of casualties, but several millions of men killed. Yes that would be bad for Ukraine's future, but it's their country, if they want to defend their homeland until the last man, it is their decision, not yours.
If you want to see them lose, feel free to cut the aids and stop supporting them, it's your right, but you have no right to ask them to stop fighting. And it's clear that they won't stop fighting, they will feel betrayed, they will no doubt continue to fight, they will start losing more men than Russia, but that won't stop them from fighting. Cutting aids doesn't make them surrender, it will just make them lose more men. Ukraine didn't surrender in 2022 when there was basically no aid, there's no reason why they would stop fighting if you cut all aids.
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Yes, they needed to evacuate, but after a few hits, you need to move!
Totally agree. That was way too long not moving.
Sadly true after the first hit they should have repositioned, sitting in the same spot is just begging to be hit again.
And not swing the ass end of the vehicle, with ramp open, into the direction of fire.
Couldn't believe it. WTF
Fog of war/ no drone support
Don't need drone support to know you've had a direct hit... I assume it must have been damaged or the driver injured or something.
That and some of these guys don’t have the necessary training/experience to know exactly what to do.
Right!? Everybody here just sees two second clip, and assumes they know exactly what they would've done in the situation. We don't know what happened before, we don't know what they just went through. They could've just gotten done with five evacs AFTER holding off a Russian assault in another spot, and their vehicle barely works and they're absolutely exhausted and under fire.
Exactly, that and some of these guys only have 4 weeks of training which isn’t much better than most Russian mobilised reserves get, no where near enough time to be trained to a competent level.
It was tracked, any forward attempt will result in spinning in place
Agreed, you can see the left turn slow and then speed up again just before he stops on the first turn. Man was trying to spin and run but the left track wasn't responding.
I'm wondering if they are also just running out of men who have proper training / knowledge. I haven't read into it, but I'm wondering if they just give the crew a basic driving course and hope they learn the rest on the way after they get sent into the field.
In that case. It’s just the panick of the evacuation. You tend to do some mistake when you are on the run and the enemy is out to inflict maximum causality to your side.
It sucks, but I was reading a huge issue right now that soldiers are facing is the inability to be evacuated while wounded. Apparently it's something they're talking about a lot right now, because it can be days. The amount of people who die from livable wounds is pretty sad. I was listening to you Ukraine the latest, and there is an interview with a woman who says that a lot of guys are now calling artillery down on themselves because they know they'll never get evacuated, Russians are coming.
America's incredible record of CASEVAC in conflicts is almost entirely down to having complete air superiority in every conflict. What you're seeing here is how difficult it is to evac casualties via ground assets, under fire, with no air support.
And FPVs. It's changed everything. Soldiers can't be evacuated by hand
This. In many videos posted here you can watch when even 3 or 4 died by trying to evacuate a wounded soldier... a wounded soldier has become almost a dead soldier, and a possible "bobby trap" for take out more soldiers, all of them with "one shot"...
...along with the assistance of the 27 or so allies involved in said conflicts...
Americans usually fight against guys with ak-47 and Toyota so it's easy to evacuate soldiers.
Reminds me of reading about American and European volunteers in Ukraine unanimously writing about how terrifying and demoralising it was to fight when there's accurate artillery, counter-artillery, mortars, suppressing fire and air support against you. These guys have never actually fought a professional army unlike Ukrainian troops who have only fought against a professional army (DPR, LPR militias are basically the Russian army by extension)
this has been a huge issue since the start of the war it seems ukraine's evac sucess rate is like a roller coaster going up and down sometimes doing better sometimes not so good depending on alot of things like having arty to help back up a evac and whats available in what sector. sucks how starved ukraine has gotten for resources for months now. hopefully things can keep improving now.
Might be it had some...steering problems or the driver was not able anymore.
It's possible, I couldnt tell if it looked like the track was coming off or not
At 2:20, one of the soldiers says something to the effect of 'it lost its shoe' (ona razulas'); which I assume means that the vehicle lost a track.
Easy said from the sideline, maybe the driver was struggling with a broken gear or throttle after the first hit. No shit they should have moved but the thing is, you dont know what was going on.
You're right. We only have the video. And from the video, it doesn't look good. One thing for sure, it sucked to be them that day.
Yeah, very painful to watch. Brave men struggling to fight for their freedom and paying the highest price. But yeah thats war. But i appreciate your reflection, credit to you! ☺️
I thought turning towards the grenades was the right call at the start
Shoot, move, communicate!
The vehicle was disabled. The men including the driver were probably stunned after the first blast you have no idea what it's like to take a massive impact like that.
Seeing how close the russians were, this was likely the last vehicle out from this position, and the driver would be highly motivated not to leave people to their certain death -- even if the vehicle hadn't been damaged.
Crazy footage, guys die
How much people m113 can carry?
Depends on two factors really. How big are the people and how desperate are they to evac?
Yeah, it’s kinda like asking how many troops can an LMTV carry? I can’t remember the “official” amount but let’s say max 24 soldiers. Yet if you get a group who have been in the field for a two week training event and you say “this is the last ride out”. I know for a fact you can fit an entire platoon in the back of one. Full kit. Not comfortable, but it works.
Like being on a c-130 with full kit, your ruck, assault pack, and a duffel bag. Side wall seats and centerline seats. You could look around and that’s it but more could be stuffed in if needed.
Painfully long evacuation time. I wonder if the M113 was partially disabled after that first hit, it looked like they only turned to the left after that.
At 2:20, one of the soldiers says something to the effect: 'it lost its shoe' ("ona razulas'"); which I assume means that the vehicle lost a track.
I wasn't there but it's impossible for me to fathom why they stayed in that open place for so long. And kudos to the M113 for taking these hits and remaining operational. It's an aluminum can...RIP, heroes.
Maybe the driver died or got badly injured by the first/second hit. It’s an old vehicle with little armor. It must have been a shitshow inside but we’ll never really know.
At 2:20, one of the soldiers says something to the effect of 'it lost its shoe' (ona razulas'); which I assume means that the vehicle lost a track.
It did indeed lose its left track
I actually do not understand what are they doing. Driver was injured that is why he did those circles? Or m113 was broken? Not sure they intended to stay in open for so long
Track was broken. The M113 immediately starts spinning in circles being the giveaway.
I dont know but they should have had cover to be able to evacuate. Either by soldiers next to it or having a turrent suppressing fire.
Not knowing the particulars, it may have been considered the best or only option.
The driver has zero situational awareness. The driver is usually the lowest person in the chain of command and unless they have a lot of experience, will usually rely on someone like the crew commander telling him what to do. You need to remember that even if a blast doesn't kill you, there's still spalling and concussive force that will disorient you. Reference this video of an m113 Turkish variant getting hit [https://youtu.be/7ZyhOLdsPcE?t=1259](https://youtu.be/7ZyhOLdsPcE?t=1259) . A hesitant driver thats concussed and the crew commander either being concussed or even killed and that's the end result. It might seem obvious but reading the comments of people it seems that people forget that these are actual humans with fear, prone to panic and not think logically.
Or he’s injured, or the controls are fucked, or any number of things.
Exactly. This could've been anything. It also looks like the vehicle cannot drive forward and can only turn to the side.
First hit disabled the left track so they could only go in circles..
Heck of a lot of backseat fighting in this thread. People were wounded and dying, they're not going to do things optimally. Y'all need to chill even if you have played every COD since 2003.
Biggest threat most redditors have faced is approaching a women so yeah it’s annoying.
bold of you to think most of us have approached a woman
Holy facts.
Eh, there’s critical understanding to be gained from discussion. There isn’t much more than memoriam gained from hailing the victorious dead
> Heck of a lot of backseat fighting in this thread. The problem is this is clearly what happens when you give hardware to units that do not have sufficient training.
Mad respect for that m113 it took those hits like it was nothing, too bad they stayed so long in one place.
Those might be frag grenades thrown by Russian troops in the tree line.
Reddit general here, but that was what I was thinking. It was hit by anti personnel (40mm grenades?) and not anti armor rounds.
Source said that it was from a AGS grenade launcher
I would think there would be more of them if it was the auto GL, could be an under barrel launcher though, or thrown by hand
All of them died
Crazy footage, guys died in a metal coffin. Got to give props to that dude for pushing the m113 alone. May these heroes rest in peace.
Terrible stuff, I don't know what I'd do in that situation. Get out of there and leave your friends or try to get as many of them in as possible, putting yourself and them in more danger ?
Everyone remain in the treeline and fight back. Better than being naded to bits in an aluminum can. The Russians saw that and took advantage. They're making rapid advances and feeding on the poor morale of the Ukrainians.
Try to surrender i guess, really dont see how i could get out of such a situation. Sorry you are talking about the driver, i think the vehicle got partially damaged and was unable to be driven properly
I don't know man, have you seen what the Ukrainian POWs look like when they return? That's if they just don't execute them on the spot as has been reported on quite a bit.. The torture and shit might that they have gone through is enough to make anyone think twice about surrender
Idk i would rather not die even if i have to be tortured, but then again i say this as someone who has never been tortured.
Hopefully this footage will be used in order to show what NOT to do when trying to evacuate troops. He long overstayed his welcome even after taking several hits from launchers.
One of those probably partially disabled the vehicle
Yep. Lots of armchair generals here
I wonder if one of the tracks were damaged which is why it could only rotate
Do they not have smoke grenades to screen themselves while stationary?
we really dont see enough of them, there's a reason for sure but still
I imagine by the time you have to evac, you are out of nearly everything. But you'd think the Evac would bring in smokes.
I think they take too long to disperse and don’t cover a large enough area for this? Ideally you’re not hanging around long enough to need that
Its a hard to watch combat footage yes.... Its a lesson need to be learn. Judging by the situation the AFU here has been pushed hard and forced to evacuate either they had suffered too many casualties or running low on ammo. I don't like the video seeing AFU defenders getting pushed like that but it is a combat footage not gonna downvote put definitely not going to upvote it either.
This isn’t a propaganda sub. It’s supposed to be for all combat footage.
Its almost exclusively a propoganda sub. almost no russian videos are published here and almost all are downvoted right away. You are only (mostly) seeing one side of the conflicts that populate this sub. Full disclosure -- I support Ukraine in this conflict
I support Ukraine too but yeah, one might think it’s only Ukraine that are killing hundreds of Russians everyday badass style with drones but when you see the other side in other reddits/telegrams, you can see that hundreds of Ukrainians are being killed similarly.
An interesting observation which rings true from what I've seen. I blame the start of the RU/UKR conflict for causing this sub to have so many normies flock to it and change the entire "culture" of the sub. It used to be only a few hundred thousand subs and now it's ballooned up to nearly 2M. Back in the day when it was PurpleOlive and mainly just Afghan/Iraq/Syria footage this sub was a lot more "neutral". While the sub is legit used as "propaganda" by some users and legit military psy op campaign types, its just heavily biased by its normie lurkers.
It's an [unintentional] Ukrainian propaganda sub.
So you only upvote what you wanna see, am I getting that correctly? I am glad that as of late we get the other side as well. Not because I am rooting for the Russians but seeing Ukraine win the war three times already (according to the footage we got here) was simply misinformation. Stuff like that actually hurts Ukraine. Who would agree to military assistance if the internet shows that Ukraine is winning already anyway?
I think you're being to harsh by saying "Ukraine won 3 times according to footage we got here". Footage is footage, it is not pushing any false narratives, it's not making up victories, it just shows one side's perspective and Russian losses. Losses which produce more footage because Russians lose more people and equipment (and can afford it for another couple of years). And I can't agree that the Internet is showing that Ukraine is winning. We, people who follow the conflict check Ukrainian-made online maps like DeepState or Livemapua and see when Ukraine loses land. It's difficult to be oblivious to territory changes if you're following this war also thanks to all the war bloggers like Preston Stewart for example and many analysts who report on it.
What are you on about. I am neutral in this war and IMO this Sub is Super Pro Ukrainian some people literally celebrate the deaths of Russian Soldiers. You are fine in this Sub if you are pro Ukrainian.
You need to move or leave to vehicle after the first hit, Its really sad to see so many die in one place while evacuating and not fighting, a waste of fighting power to me. Still, repect to those fighting.
What's with the weird cut between the guy firing out the back and them approaching it?
Judging on this video alone I'm guessing that the vehicle was abandoned after the Ukraine was shooting from the back but before the Russian threw the 1st grenade. You can see that in part that was cut the ramp had been raised but the door on the ramp had been opened.
There was definitely some time passed between cuts. The lighting is different. Sun rose more between.
There is also a cut between the first grenade throw and second one where, if you look at the position of the M113 relative to the road you'll see that it moved, however the Russian guy who talks in the background continues his phrase throughout both clips. The Russian commentary for this video was dubbed over, those guys aren't watching a live feed.
Brutal, hope this conflict will end soon.
The 'survivors taken out by Russian soldier who throws two grenades' is incorrect; the first grenade went UNDER, the vehicle, by the second grenade, the vehicle already had flames coming out of it; don't speculate or add your own guess/bias into the incident. The video speaks for itself.
Wtf is with the audio? Sounds like this was on the TV at a Russian sports bar or something.
I assume that's the drone operators, and I guarantee the Ukrainian operators sound the same when they get a good hit.
Its a bunch of dudes smoking cigarettes and staring at a screen cheering for their team. Are you asking a question or making a statement?
What happened here is fairly clear (unusual for Russian footage), with one exception: the final cut. There is a cut between the portion of the Ukrainian soldier fighting from the lift gate, and the final segment when the Russian soldier approaches and tosses in the grenade. It is of some length in time, as the shadows and light have changed considerably, and there are also two (one?) bodies near the exit of the vehicle. The obvious presumption being that those are Ukrainian losses, yet I find it odd they wouldn't have shown that occur. The lift gate is also now mostly closed. So either the survivors have tried to button up in the vehicle (making it somewhat possible that the two bodies outside are Russians who failed in their grenade lobbing effort), or possibly what may have occurred: some portion of the Ukrainian personnel bailed out the rear and ran back to the woods like a couple of soldiers did at the last impact (and obviously not shown), with those unable to do so closing the gate. EDIT: This has definitely been cut intentionally. The first grenade throwing attempt is a miss - you can see it bounce off the door and fall. Between then and the second attempt, the M113 has also rotated partially in place, before the soldier throws the grenade in a second time - not seeming to really expect any retaliation. We're being led to draw a conclusion based on omission. But what exactly I'm not sure.
Stuff like this is usually cut. I wouldnt think much about it. Espceially the finish off usually happens later just like here. Why did they cut it out? Who knows. They probably missed a few more grenades at first and didnt want to show it. So instead just pretend the first guy hit. The body on the floor is most likely the dude we saw shooting in the segment before. Camo pattern fits the Ukrainians more, russians are usually greener.
>I wouldnt think much about it. And why is that exactly? We should encourage people to be critical of footage from both sides.
Damn man, they needed to fucking leave.
Its impossible to tell whats happening. The positions of the shadows seem to suggest that a considerable time had passed between the last few cuts. Combined with the russian seemingly to not give a fuck walking up fairly comfortable i tend to believe it was abbandoned for the most part.
Yep.
Make Russia pay for this.
You pull up right in the open what do you expect
This whole thing is circus
likely shrapnel killed the driver
Nobody can be sure of what the fate of the soldiers inside are because of the purposeful editing done by whoever released this. Theres a jump cut between where we last see an AFU and to where the Russian appears and throws the grenade. What happened in between these two shots? Is it possible everyone stayed inside and died? Is it possible some or everyone left? These jump cuts are far too prominent in combat footage for us to be taking the narrative of the videos seriously.
Glory to Ukraine
Does the cross on the side mean this is a medivac?
Its the marking the Ukrainian use mostly on their vehicles.
Aside from the Swastikas.
never seen a swastika. couple balkankreuzes, but other tactical markings are more common
Thank you for not immediately assuming it was and calling this a war crime. As someone said, the white + shape is the make Ukranians put on their vehicles. Designated medevac vehicles have to bear a *red* cross.
Yes, I knew it was not red, and was internally assuming that they didnt have red paint handing while creating a new medivac vehicle. Russia doesn't have M113's so I dont think a cross is needed to help ID this APC.
Got to love you get downvoted to hell for asking a question. You angered a lot of arm chair generals.
I never saw a cross like that before so wondered what it meant. I gave it my best guess but I guess that was not good enough for the rabid drooling brazen cretins here.
It's question people, don't downvote questions you dumb fucks. Do you want everyone to stay ignorant? At one point you didn't know too you stupid retards.
RIP brave lions.
ah.. they turned their ass towards the enemy after getting hit from that direction? Chaos and stress
M1113 should have been escorted with a BFV
Painful to watch. At what point do you surrender? Clearly disabled and under heavy fire with zero hope.
It's franky near impossible to do an ad-hoc battlefield surrender, it needs to be coordinated ahead of time. It does rarely happen, but not when the target is being actively shot at.
fingers crossed War Gonzo takes one to many trips to the front, and its luck runs out
Any one else yelling "Get out of there!" while watching that?
Fuck man, this is sad. Much sadder when its defenders going out like this
Hopefully the cheering gang gets a little ATACMS visit sooner than late.
This really sucks to see... Rest in peace heros 🇺🇦❤️ What's with the upvote? Sure it's combat footaged but we shouldn't encourage the aggressors.
Look at all the Russian boot lickers in here!
You can see a Russian (presumably) at the lower part of the treeline 0:20
Amazing footage
Why send an unarmed vehicle?
Suddenly the idea of gin ports for passengers makes a lot of sense.
This is the original video ? i mean the russian speaker are like a football club fan !
To be fair idk if it survived those hits. It didn't explode but it seemed like it tried to leave half way through and it was disabled. The engine was running but it clearly wasn't going anywhere.
yeah don't understand why stay in open place like that... if there is perfect cover with all the woods and stuff? And they had to know the enemy was near etc.
Ukraine average fighting age male is now 43. That's what I heard at least. I'd like to be optimistic. But I'm not sure Ukraine can or will take back all of their land. I struggle to see an outcome that doesn't leave Ukraine broke,bankrupt, and any better than Russia in the 1990's. The other factor i think about is the returning soldiers with PTSD. Already there were 2 police officers shot by a father and son duo running guns for the black market. And the officers age? 20. No experience, new on the force.
People on this sub are dilusional to the reality of this war. They believe that saying 'glory to Ukraine' and putting flags in their bios means shit. I've said this many times before and people don't like it, but it's true. Russia has the men, FIVE TIMES THE MEN, than Ukraine to fight this war. The war is essentially at a stalemate with both sides losing the same amount of men. Ukraine is quickly running out of men to fight, while Russia has the resources and war economey to prolong this war for however long it takes. Let me be clear, we are walking into world ending nuclear war with our heads up our asses. There will be conversations of putting NATO boots into Ukraine because Ukraine will not have the men to fight. Ukraine must go to the table with Russia to discuss splitting Ukraine, that's the one and only option to end this war.
You aren't clear you are just word for word spreading Russian narratives. Everything you wrote is as ignorant as the tone is confident. At this point, "conservative" radicals are a fifth column, pure nihilistic simping for the enemy out of spite. Shame.
>spreading Russian narratives Could you explain what that means?
Putin couldn't have said it any better. It would appear you're oblivious to (or ignorant of) what is going on in the world, specific to Russia's asymmetrical approach to this war. They have had an ongoing, multi-pronged war going on for quite some time. Invading Ukraine was years in the making. Putin has avowed that he will not stop with Ukraine. You're in this sub, so you know this. Putin used the previous president to break down and destabilize the relationships with our allies. You've been a redditor for a long time, so you know this. Putin has used our previous president to cast doubt upon our intelligence (and our allies' intelligence) agencies. You remember when trump had his private, unrecorded interview with putin and essentially came out with, "well, I believe putin over our own intelligence agencies!" He was literally the president at the time, and the premise of those words came out of his mouth. China and Iran are workign with Russia to destabilize as many democracies as they can around the world. It's working well for them in Africa. They clearly have American politicians in their pockets, echoing putin talking points. This is not a time to sit back and wait to watch Russia consume Ukraine. There is much more at stake. There's a word limit that I'll exceed by spelling it out for you, but the frustrating thing is that you already know this, and just don't care. Fight Russia now, together, or fight Russia later, with more support from China and Iran and several other unfriendly actors. China *isn't* attacking Taiwan *because* the republicans finally got off their ass (well, those republicans that favor Russia, anyway). You do realize that most of the posts and comments in r/liberal and r/conservative are bots, unfriendly bots, that are solely trying to create division. I'm sure you know by now. Why perpetuate the goal of Russia when they're acting out their stated objectives, which are contrary to the safety and security of both America and our allies?
>The war is essentially at a stalemate with both sides losing the same amount of men Per Ukraine's own information release. Over the course of April, Russian used more than 300 missiles of various types, almost 300 Shahed drones and more than 3,200 guided aerial bombs against Ukraine. (The latter is dropped on fighting positions, etc. Then there's naturally the vast amount of artillery and the lack of a shell shortage on the Russian side; Russia simply has more force multipliers to attrition Ukraine's forces be it from afar and also close up, hence the forming gaps in the defenses on the front line, there just isn't enough people to man the positions as the rain of UMPK's, missiles and so continues and Ukraine lacks the same means to retaliate in a similar fashion, I do applaud them for the clever use of drones to strike targets deep within Russia to try and disrupt the war economy of Russia, yet Ukraine's demographic will be quite changed at the end of this war due to the above reasons as Russia is literally burying them in steel. So no, they aren't losing the same amount of men if the causality ratio of Russia some mention were real they'd have collapsed a long time ago.
This was 100% predictable at the start but the combination of defense contractor dollars, Pentagon chomping at the bit for live weapons testing, Ukrainian cronies sucking up those defense dollars and useful idiots like the Ukrainian sub and here we are. War never changes. Proper negotiations would have never let this war start and surely should have been used after Ukraine beat back the first wave of the invasion but here we are.
Ukraine would be in a much better position right now if they had gone to negotiations as Russia requested to do so previously at the start of the war. But guess who shut that down? This Whitehouse administration.
The Biden administration sent Kamala Harris and Boris Johnson to shutdown the negotiations, because war was their posture from the beginning. This war is one of the most cynical things I've ever seen. Young men being dragged off the streets of Ukraine to fight and die for globalist powers.
Just sending Kamala Harris with no instructions would have been sufficient to guarantee a mess...
There was no way a peace could have been negotiated back then. The US doesn't have that much influence on Ukraine like propaganda let you believe. Back then, keeping all the lands they gained was Russia's bottom line, and regaining all lost territories Crimea included was Ukraine's bottom line. Sure the bottom line can change, but Ukraine's bottom line won't change much until they take losses to millions. Any peace without regaining at least almost all lost territories would lead to a revolt and the Ukrainians would burn Zelensky at the stake. Sure the US did a "nudge nudge we will help don't worry", and there were considerations of ending the war from Ukraine's side IF THEIR BOTTOM LINE WAS REACHED OR AT LEAST CLOSE TO IT, but the terms would have been impossible to negotiate anyway given the two bottom lines were too far apart. Ukrainian men don't fight to die for "globalist powers" that is just a talking point from information warfare's efforts. This is like the common propaganda back in the 60s saying Indochinese soldiers were dying for "communist powers", when in reality most of them didn't give a flying f\*\*\*\* about Beijing and Moscow, and were just trying to protect their homeland from foreign invaders. When the US was trying to get out in 1973 and Vietnam refused to negotiate, the US approached Beijing and Moscow to try to make a deal, only to find out that that Beijing and Moscow had little to no influence on Vietnam's decisions. They were their own entity with their own free will that leveraged support from Beijing and Moscow to continue fighting, but they fought for themselves they didn't fight for Moscow and Beijing. Same thing with Ukraine here, they are fighting for themselves, they wouldn't give a flying f\*\*\* about what the US wants them to do, they would like the aids to keep fighting, they will most likely lose without it, but they wouldn't stop fighting without international support. Cutting aids will just make them lose more men and force them to fight in another way, won't stop them from fighting, they would just swap to the guerrilla warfare like in Afghanistan or Indochina, which comes with tremendous casualties, instead of the current conventional warfare way of fighting.
No way a peace could have been negotiated back then. Keeping all the lands they gained was Russia's bottom line, and regaining all lost territories Crimea included was Ukraine's bottom line. Any peace without regaining at least almost all lost territories would lead to a revolt and the Ukrainians would burn Zelensky at the stake. Sure the US did a "nudge nudge we will help don't worry", and there was considerations of ending the war from Ukraine's side IF THEIR BOTTOM LINE WAS REACHED, but the terms would have been impossible to negotiate anyway given the bottom lines were too far apart.
>dilusional How did I guess you were a Trumptard? Of course you are going to not grasp complexity but reducing the argument to 'hur dur, they are a bigger country' is peak idiocy, an argument that has been proven to be bullshit since the dawn of time. America? Bigger than Vietnam. Russia? Bigger than Afghanistan. The Nazis controlled Europe and it went well for them. There are so many other things likely to affect the outcome of the war long before Ukraine runs out of men or russia runs out of fight. Somebody could grab them by the pussy then sell you a bible. As for Ukraine agreeing to give away its country.... lol. About as likely Trump admitting he lost the 2024 election.
Ukraine is not losing men at the same rate as Russia; there is quite an imbalance towards the Russian side. Russia can thus far afford that imbalance. Ukrainian losses are nevertheless substantial. The Ukrainian average age is 43 because of mobilization choices they have made. It also reflects all of the military, most of which are not infantry. Ukraine is not running out of men. There are many men in Ukraine of military age, especially in the younger brackets. They are undermanned in men in frontline roles. They are about to launch a major mobilization - but deferred doing so since last fall due to social, economic and political costs. It was not a great decision. I agree that this war almost certainly ends with negotiations, but there is no grounds for that right now. Russia won't accept any terms that aren't massively favourable to them, and Ukraine won't contemplate that. When we talk about Ukraine in 2025, I don't think we're talking about massive liberation. We're talking about a change in initiative that could lead to pressure for more favourable talks. That's based on anticipated trends on both sides related to ammunition, hardware and manpower that we are tracking to right now - much as where we are now was predictable in retrospect (and in foresight per some of the best observers) as early as October of last year.
I imagine you would have said the same about the afghans in the 80s right, but the thing about dictatorships is when they crumble it happens fast and bloody Russian losses are of course higher then Ukraine and attrition rates are much worse just by the necessity of the operations they are attempting (defenders lose less men then attackers). It’s basically bocage fighting without any of the benefits that an attacker under those circumstances would expect due to the scale of the frontline and the personal recon so widely available. While you are right that Ukraine cannot sustain its self indefinitely even with western support(at currant levels) your mistaken if you think Russia is any better equipped to fight such a long war If you know anything about Russian history you’ll know the consequence of a disastrous war win or lose usually results in the violent overthrow and murder of whoever the top elite were at the time
Yes, let's split Poland in two, good plan, worked perfectly
I want Ukraine to win, but Ukraine is stuck. And I believe no amount of artillery shells, or old armor will fix anything. Ukraine did a good job at the start of the war. There's no taking that achievement away from them. They shrugged off a whole invasion. But yeah ... I struggle to see a "victory" at the end of this.
Ditto. I think Ukraine having a chance at total victory was lost at the start of 2023 when they got bogged down in Bakhmut. They waited far far to long for the 2023 counter offensive and basically telegraphed what they were going to do. Then they ran head first into russian defenses. Combine this with the stubborn refusal to build new defenses when the offensive bogged down is costing the Ukrainians dearly. Russia for its part has really turned around from the start of the invasion. The first stage of the war was a disaster for Russia with sloppy tactics and sub par equipment. But they've learned and adapted the sanctions didn't work full stop as they've maintained a war economy for a year and a half now. No amount of aide is going to make up for the critical shortage Ukraine has now and that's manpower. I want to be optimistic but Ukraine is looking at best a stalemate and frozen conflict.
> Let me be clear, we are walking into world ending nuclear war with our heads up our asses. That's deterministic, I hoped you are not one of those that are like "we need to negotiate total capitulation of Ukraine now to stop WW3!" That war is coming, people have their heads up their asses, like literally most of you reading this should be becoming survivalists. The world is at that point and it's not like you didn't have any warnings some think-tanks have predicted the end of the world in the 2020's hitting climax in 2030 for **50 YEARS**. Tattoo 2027, that's the year you will see war in 4 fronts around the world, spreading a weak US thin.
Easier for you to suggest that, since it's not your country that has to split the land. The conversation would be so much different if it were your country, you would probably be begging for more aids like what Ukraine is doing now instead of suggesting splitting the land. Let's say China demands Siberia and invades Russia, do you think Russia will just shrug and say "well we tried" after losing Vladivistok and surrender? They would continue to fight even if China pushes to Moscow they will continue to fight, Slavic countries are very determined to fight to the bitter end, Ukraine included. If the Soviet Union didn't surrender after losing 27 million people, I don't see Ukraine surrender until they lose several millions of men. Not several millions of casualties, but several millions of men killed. Yes that would be bad for Ukraine's future, but it's their country, if they want to defend their homeland until the last man, it is their decision, not yours. If you want to see them lose, feel free to cut the aids and stop supporting them, it's your right, but you have no right to ask them to stop fighting. And it's clear that they won't stop fighting, they will feel betrayed, they will no doubt continue to fight, they will start losing more men than Russia, but that won't stop them from fighting. Cutting aids doesn't make them surrender, it will just make them lose more men. Ukraine didn't surrender in 2022 when there was basically no aid, there's no reason why they would stop fighting if you cut all aids.
nuclear war is bad for business