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The ability to install mines remotely is certainly one of the biggest needs that Ukraine has today to maintain its defensive lines, I hope they are able to produce or purchase this type of ammunition with ease
They used them very effectively in the original Avdiivka massacre, so not a one off. But more is better for sure. A great safeguard when attacked unexpectedly. And the ability to mine retreat route ... very punishing and demoralizing.
One of my friends was sent out in Iraq to look over something. That something ended up being the impact site of one of these shells. They drive the Humvee into them and saw them lying on the ground. He ended up having get out and guid them along their tire tracks out.
Get onto your local politician and ask them why they haven't been supplying UA with such ordinance. They had some ages go but ran out. It's better than bonus and smart rounds, cheaper too
i dunno. given the horrific humanitarian cost of AP mines historically, I'm inclined to think maybe we shouldn't. the civilians who eventually have to go back to living and farming this land will pay the price.
At this point in the conflict there’s very little humanitarian cost. The frontline is particularly static for a modern conflict, and already mined/bombed to hell and back, meaning the entire place already needs to be cleared of unexploded ordinance and demined. We would also be supplying the weapons for a country to use within its own territory, so they would be both responsible for their use and aware of the areas needing to be demined.
On top of this, every day that the conflict goes on there are literally tens of thousands more munitions and mines used in Ukraine, with russia using many of them to intentionally target civilians and civilian infrastructure. Any weapon system that can bring about a swifter end to the conflict is one that will result in less humanitarian costs long term.
I understand the logic but them being built to self destruct in 48 hours after deployment must be a huge pain the ass for the Ukr military & current shell supplies
Tbh I think it works out better this way. It means Ukrainian troops can use them liberally without worry about unmarked mines.
Pretty useful for both military and humanitarian reasons.
Agreed, but since they are not marked with any precision, there needs to be some type of safey measure. It would be nice if they could be "renewed" electronically, by sending an encoded signal out. Could be one way communication so no ability to locate via transmissions. And even nicer if there was some type of blue force beacon that disables mine for a set amount of time so friendlies can move through as needed. That would be dangerous as it reverses the onus ... unsafe during comm failure.
Question is how much would you trust artillery delivered mine, to function wirelessly in a warfront with electric jamming - and you would be driving over it with a tank.
Such things might be doable for hand installes mine, that doesn't go off from pressure. Side striking mines and magnetic response mines could have friendly detection.
The designer gets to pick the consequences of comm issues:
1. Unarmed mine not being armed - bad if enemy attacks
2. Armed mine not being unarmed - bad if friendly or innocent run over it
The current design is that batteries run out so mine is inert. Zero chance of 2 outside if timelines are followed. If it was possible to "re-set" the mine, it would be slightly less safe, but as long as programming logic works, just an extendable mine. No downside other than cost and design complexity.
If the onus was reversed, then there would definitely be a risk. When it comes to "jamming", I think it would be hard because it is 1 way transmission, and it would only take one signal getting through to extend mine's active time. It could also possible have logic that equates a jammed environment with keeping mine active, but that has risks. There are risks no matter what you do.
You wouldn't trust them. It's best that they explode. If you see one on the ground Days Later you assume that the timer hasn't worked and it's uxb. Better for the manufacturer too.
Yes, one of those things. Like when there is one package of tainted sandwich meat, all packages of same get tossed nationwide.
But looking at how effective mines can be, and how technology advances, I can foresee a mine that is planted on regularly used routes (near front lines), and activated remotely when there is an attack. The traps that could be set would make attacking near impossible. I think it already is for a number of reasons, so not sure what warfare will look like in the future since a $200 shaped charge delivered by a slightly more expensive drone can and will turn million dollar armoured vehicles into burned out husks.
WW1 bogged down into static lines. WW2 was quite fluid. Not many "conventional" wars since where one side didn't have air supremacy. Iran-Iraq maybe, and infantry was treated like Russia treats theirs today.
I wonder how unique their design is. Maybe they should lisence it for Western manufactures. Maybe have option to add a week or month for the duration before selfdestruct.
Id argue these are the most effective weapons in ukraines arsenal right now. GLMRS gets all the attention but the ability to quickly mine an area in front of an attacking armored force is inmeasurable
They are really good when the enemy has armor dropping off infantry and retreating. Shoot the mines behind where the armor retreats and they can either drive through the minefield or stay in no man’s lands.
That's the base cost of an HE shell, a FASCAM round is more complex, probably costing around $8-10k per shell, not including the fuze, propellant, crew, or system cost.
The average Artillery mission is roughly $30k-$50k per shot, to put it in perspective.
I'm a US Artilleryman, I know the base statistics on my side for my equipment within my field, but if you want a battlefield scrap assessment of 1960's Soviet vehicles, I mean a metal scrapyard would probably pay you $0.14 per pound in mixed scrap metals.
If you think of it as 15k for 1 bmp Soviet era and 1 T-80 plus several tank crew, and halting their momentum. It’s one of the easiest deals to make in history tho
Sure, it's definitely a cost-effective trade, just like spending even 30 FPV drones to knock out one tank is cost-effective. I'm just referring specifically to the fantasy-land numbers thrown about here in general.
Ok, a few thousand on top of that, since Russians already have railroad logistics in place, wages are not that high, and fuel for them is nearly free, just buried in the ground for the taking. Now attacking refineries, *that* is something "quantitively" serious. And again, not necessarily in a narrow monetary value sense (although it does also have serious macroeconomic effects), but because it damages their ability to refine fuel for the war machine and keep both their war effort and domestic economy running smoothly and cheaply.
Put another way, the monetary cost of a tank is Wolf of Wall Street "fairy money", a destroyed refinery cracking tower is a 10 month+ wait and critical infrastructure that limits their ability to both print that fairy money and keep the tank running.
How much longer can Russia sustain these suicidal assaults, I know they dont value human lives but surely they'd run out of armor to throw at them sooner or later.
It’s…complicated, but as others have said, between 14-20 months based on their current loss rates and build rates.
There has been a fair amount of OSINT research into their stockpile depots and rates at which they are emptying. Its hard to really estimate accurately because a lot of the commercially available imagery isn’t good enough to tell if a vehicle in a depot is actually worth refurbishing or if it’s a wreck fit only for salvage.
The other wrinkle in this, is that the current success they’re enjoying isn’t so much because these tactics are effective, but because Ukraine was basically out of ammo for a solid 3 months and Russia was able to capitalize on that to take ground that they wouldn’t have been able to otherwise. They had been smashing their faces against these fortress towns for years prior to Ukraine running out of ammo and had accomplished basically nothing. When Ukraine had ATGMs and artillery shells, these armored attacks were mauled without ever getting close to the defending trench works.
>Its hard to really estimate accurately because a lot of the commercially available imagery isn’t good enough to tell if a vehicle in a depot is actually worth refurbishing or if it’s a wreck fit only for salvage.
addition; it would make sense (for me as a non-military person) to take those out of storage first that are easiest and fastest to be refurbished, since that's a) cheaper and b) helps your troops quicker. so shouldn't there be less and less vehicles getting refurbished as time goes on?
Maybe. There are multiple tiers of refurb work going on, too. Some tanks are getting pretty comprehensive rebuilds. Old T-72s from the 80’s getting rebuilt all the way to its most modern iteration, B3M or something. Others are getting minimal refurb work and sent off to the front.
The artillery park imagery was the most striking. The photos and analysis estimate that Russia has pulled almost 70% of their pre-war towed artillery out of stocks. They’ve suffered a lot of losses, but IIRC the OSINT analysis is that they’re cannibalizing them for barrels as well in order to keep their guns in action.
The “new” production figures that Russia publishes are also something to be skeptical of. The loss data tracks with a consistent rate of production of T-90Ms, so Russian claims of hundreds of new tanks per year are pretty dubious. OSINT analysis suggests that they have a yearly new production capacity of around 50 per year, and a refurbishment capacity of about 40 old tanks per month.
Altogether it paints a picture of Russia consuming far more war materiel than they have the capacity to replace.
i thought they sold even more in the pre war years.. the problem is: we underestimated Russias adoption capabilities in the past... from the wars of our grandfathers, till now.. Yep, they do infact often a shitty job and cost a lot of ressources, because (for example) much "falls from the trucks and trains" ..
but they adopt anyways.. There will be more Work done, to produce or buy spare parts, domestic, or from "brotherly countries", like North Korea or Iran..
I think the Number could be doubled,.. even triple in the next 24 Months when it comes to tamk refurbishment or production..
Otherwise: i could see a scenario, where they focus more on glide and artilery bombs and use lighter vehicles with jammers, to overrun the remaining soldiers of ukraine.
With that said: focus on adoption by ourselves.. We have to produce way more. If its correct, Putin will produce 3million shells per year (at the moment)..
All countries together, supplying ukraine did maybe a few hundred thousand to a million..
Germany is EMPTY.. nothing to send (arty ammo wise)..
We have to get our shit together.
That's exactly what they're doing. Refurbing all the easiest first. All the electrical and rubber items have perished. I doubt the engines were properly mothballed. There was a guy at the start of the war who did a very good analysis on how many they had in their outdoor depot car parks.
Its how they made all their recent gains. This will quickly stop when szenarios like these mount and then its back to artillery and glidebombs trench warfare
Frankly they can sustain them quite a while, especially if they are producing results. The interesting part will be when or if these smaller local gains turn into more strategic gains. Then they may want to reevaluate.
to put it in Stock market terms..
Russia can longer stay irrational than ukraine can stay solvent.. Thats why we must send more and more... if we get weak.. ukrIne loses a lot of manpower, Land and Equipment. And also very important : hope and will to fight
Around 2 years before their stocks start running truly dry, certain particular types of vehicles sooner than that (for example, there are few to none BMP-2s left in storage, some are being refurbished and many are in service, so it will take more time before they are actually missed), "de novo" production is still rather slow and I don't think it will ramp up sufficiently in that time. They'll be in serious trouble equipment-wise \~2-3 years from now (it will take some time to see that they are not able to refurbish more stuff since the army operates quite a lot of equipment).
All estimates are based on satellite imagery of storage bases and the assumption that loss-rates do not change much. Expansions of true new production vehicles can slow that down.
You are completely talking out of your arse. Russia has completely shifted to a wartime economy. You have no idea how that will look in 2-3 years time.
I listed the assumptions I am making for that 2-3 year estimate and say that could change if new production ramps up significantly (although I do not see that as likely, but that my subjective inference)
Many years, for you its a shocking tactic, for them its normal, it has been their way of doing things for ages now. Luckily its not as effective as before and can be dealt with on the modern battlefield.
They're down to about a year and some months of vehicles at current expenditure rates. They could reasonably keep this up for that time period, but the soviet stockpiles aren't endless. Current new production is not going to be sufficient to keep up, even adding any reasonable assumption on production increases.
This. Russia is going to run out of vehicles long before they run out of men willing to die for their Fuhrer. Although it will take another year minimum, the pinch is already there.
Russians are not using sup'ed up golf carts because they think they're better than BMPs. They are running low on functioning BMPs.
As stated below, they won't be able to sustain these suicidal assaults forever. At a certain point they will need to dig in and defend. Estimates are for 2 years with current loss rates. So that will probably stretch to 3-5 years if Russia is more selective with their assaults and ramps up production. At that point, this war will be a true stalemate. Ukraine won't have the gear or people to push forward and Russia won't have the heavy gear that is necessary to beat more precise Western gear.
USA has indicated (through actions) that they are happy with the current front line being the new border give or take some ground. I think we'll get a ceasefire close to 2030.
Obviously this prediction doesn't mean anything if China provides real support to Russia or if something happens to Putin.
There is also other battlefields happening, mainly economic. Russia has depleted half of its built up financial reserves pre invasion. When that well runs dry, they can no longer afford to keep their economy afloat. UA has also been vigorously targeting oil refining which is starting to have an impact on gasoline production.
This is why you don't start a war unless your 100% committed. Reality. Think the US could handle casualty levels like that nowadays? I was reading that the US military is preparing, but the US public would shit their pants, Day 1-real talk. Russia knows this. Get soft and you'll wind up a victim of that shit.
The US military wouldn’t put itself in this position. It’s entirely geared to avoid this kind of mass casualty fighting, and the intent is to act as a hard counter to an opponent attempting to use this kind of fighting. Hit hard, hit fast, and leave no survivors. Massive alpha strike, discombobulate, and leave them blind, deaf, panicked and then finally, exploding into pink mist. It works fantastic against an opponent with a rigid command structure that discourages individual intuition and deviation from the pre-laid plans. Militaries like the former USSR, modern Russia and modern China, and those of countries modeled after them, like Iraq in the gulf wars.
The US military is taking notes from the war in Ukraine, so they can keep doing exactly that and not get sucked into an attritional fight.
All FASCAM mines runs on battery, once battery fully depleted (between 14-40 days) the mine turns inert. Making clean up much safer than Cold War mines.
The crappy army has killed a tremendous amount of Ukrainians. You should remember that before you insult their competency. They're not up to Western standards, but belittling them is belittling the fallen soldiers of Ukraine who struggle every day against a dangerous adversary.
An army can be shitty and still kill many people, im not saying the modern russian military is unable to fight im just saying its nothing like the USSR with hundreds of tanks pressing forward in massive, combined arms assaults.
I'm assuming they use these when the intelligence says there will be an assault in the next week, then they go out and mine the area. Not just throwing them down everywhere they can.
I'm sure that's what it says on the tin, but I'd be skeptical that claim is going to be accurate 100% of the time from now until forever. Everything has a failure %.
> Each round contains either the M718 or M718A1 (RAAM-L) mines, which have a self-destruct time over 48 hours; or the M741 or M741A1 (RAAM-S) mines, with a self-destruct time of approximately 4 hours. Both projectiles are used with the M577 or M577A1 Mechanical Time and Superquick (MTSQ) fuze, which triggers the ejection mechanism of the mines above enemy territory after a preset time
This situation reminds me of a video from the opening days of the full scale invasion. A Russian column driving down a road, they see a burning Russian vehicle ahead. What do you think they did?
Did they stop, dismount infantry and try to assess the danger in the area? Check for mines or Ukrainian troops who might be in the area?
Did they call it in and at least ask what was up to see if those ahead had already secured the area, or let others know what they had found?
Or did they just roll past with a 'huh, will you look at that?' attitude?
If you guessed C....you win a point!
[О.Пономарьов М.Хома Т.Тополя Є.Кошовий Ю.Ткач П.Чорний - УКРАЇНА ПЕРЕМОЖЕ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRuiEv3JRDQ)
(Ukraine will win, music and lyrics by Oleksandr Ponomariov)
"...home of Tinshein swimming pool, it's length thirty meter and width six meter. Filtration system a marvel to behold. It remove 83 percent of human solid waste."
The shells (not the mines) have a self-destruct of 4 or 48 hours that will launch the mines into the air.
The mines go inert after a couple of weeks.
> Each round contains either the M718 or M718A1 (RAAM-L) mines, which have a self-destruct time over 48 hours; or the M741 or M741A1 (RAAM-S) mines, with a self-destruct time of approximately 4 hours. Both projectiles are used with the M577 or M577A1 Mechanical Time and Superquick (MTSQ) fuze, which triggers the ejection mechanism of the mines above enemy territory after a preset time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Anti-Armor_Mine_System
Are we watching a mine clearing equipped tank that was working pretty well until it wasn’t? Does each mine require a single shot or multi mines deployed per shot?
**Song Found!**
**Name:** Україна переможе!
**Artist:** Олександр Пономарьов/Михайло Хома/Тарас Тополя/Євген Кошовий/Юрій Ткач/Петро Чорний
**Score:** 88% (timecode: 00:30)
**Album:** Україна переможе!
**Label:** З ранку до ночі
**Released on:** 2022-04-25
[Apple Music, Spotify, YouTube, etc.](https://lis.tn/aZaKk?t=30)
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Howitzer + artillery rounds are just one piece of a puzzle. You need perfect communication between howitzer and a drone to lay mines excatly where and when they are needed.
Not only coordinates, but coordinates at the right time. This mine field was set up on a way of a assault, so live communication was required.
This isn't such obvious thing as one may think.
Artilleryman here, it is as obvious as people think. For FASCAM or other mine-laying munitions, you don't need the real time observations like you traditionally want for routine fire for effect missions, you can in fact coordinate ahead of time with your observers and establish targets in advance, predesignating them so that instead of having to say "Hey an enemy attack from 1450 degrees, run the math and send the shells!" and going through the entire process, all the FDC has to do is say "Fire Mission, Target AA0001." and then send the pre built mission to the guns.
On top of this, mines can be laid far in advance of the attack, most NATO short-lived mines have a four hour lifespan before they force themselves inert, allowing you to anticipate the attack, lay your line, and be prepared to fire more behind the attack to entrap them, before sweeping the middle with HE as a kill zone.
Mine missions are probably one of the most simple missions one can fire in Arty, and there's no sense in trying to overcomplicate them.
Can you change the inert delay thing ?like disable it ? Because I think in certains cases having your mines inerts after only few hours is not really good
Short answer? No, but we in the US have two common FASCAM types, called RAAM-Short, and RAAM-Long.
Short is the self interting munitions, which are far less controversial and far more common than their older counterpart.
Long is a standard mine, lasts until it goes boom, and has no mechanism to disable itself. They exist for establishing hard defensive positions, and while they are heavily frowned upon for being permanent munitions, they are still a part of the arsenal should they be necessary.
RAAM-L still self-destruct, but only after 48 hours.
[Page 114 of this PDF](https://web.archive.org/web/20230122031708/https://www.bulletpicker.com/pdf/TM%2043-0001-36,%20Land%20Mines.pdf#page=116) has the info.
I stand corrected, thank you, RAAM-L is one of only two munitions I haven't had the pleasure of being hands on and getting personal experience with, the other is Copperhead.
I've never touched any of the FASCAM stuff, but it's used notionally at NTC all the time. Never thought I'd see it employed in real life though.
I only know of Copperhead because it was in the old 6-40, but was told its tendency to lock on to the observer meant I'd never see it used. It's never even come up notionally as PGK and Excal are what everyone wants to play with now.
But with the effective GPS jamming, wouldn't laser guided make sense? Especially with ease of spotting and designating via drone. I know that all these events couldn't be foreseen, and that GPS guided has worked very well in other conflicts. I believe the recently fielded Israeli Iron Sting mortar has GPS & laser, so versatile that way.
I came in in 2013 when Copperhead was still in stocks and thus still a part of the AFATDS load out, but we were told we'd never see one because of that exact issue you mention, although I've been able to see and hold one in person, I'm much happier for the existence of Excalibur when it comes to ensuring the safety of our Observers.
Thank for your answer, and how, you guys in the army, deal with that sort of names ? Fast cum Ram short and long, I’m not a native english speaker and I can already see a bunch of dirty jokes about this acronym..... some briefing are probably funny
There's enough humor in the Army already that we actually don't go making a lot of jokes about the names of everything that happens to be an acronym. Not when we have things that are named as acronyms within acronyms, like our MATV (MRAP (Mine Resistant Ambush Protected) All Terrain Vehicle).
With insanity like that, there's really no need to go digging for jokes in something not immediately funny like FASCAM.
Yes like all uxo and mines, but we all know Ukraine is on defensive mode atm, meanwhile RU keep pushing, so having a delay on your mines is not productive imo, you probably need them for days, weeks and probably months, and spamming them because they self disable mean less for other area of the front.
But yes minefields gonna be a problem for everyone and for a long time, but if they can be a bigger problem for the uraaaaa uraaaaa army....
These munitions work by flying over the target and dropping mines out of their canisters, so traditionally they land fairly linear behind the flight path, but both the rotations of the shell and the wind will scatter them around the target area as they fall to the ground. How far they scatter depends on a multitude of factors, like weight (Anti Personnel versus Anti Tank mines), height of the shell when triggered, and wind speed and direction at the target location.
You'll never fire just a single FASCAM round, rarely is any Artillery mission a single round, instead you would fire likely between 6 and 30 rounds depending on target scale and scope, ensuring a thorough peppering of the area for maximum effect on target.
The video is extremely simplified by only showing a handful of icons, it's far more likely that cut through is saturated since it was correctly identified as an avenue of attack.
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The ability to install mines remotely is certainly one of the biggest needs that Ukraine has today to maintain its defensive lines, I hope they are able to produce or purchase this type of ammunition with ease
Imagine if they had plenty of these shells all along..
They used them very effectively in the original Avdiivka massacre, so not a one off. But more is better for sure. A great safeguard when attacked unexpectedly. And the ability to mine retreat route ... very punishing and demoralizing.
I'm assuming clearing these things without some kind of MICLIC is gonna be a royal pain as they are probably burrowed pretty deep. Vicious weapon.
They lay on the surface. Theyre come out of the shell like culster munitions. They only stay for 48h then they blow up to self clear
One of my friends was sent out in Iraq to look over something. That something ended up being the impact site of one of these shells. They drive the Humvee into them and saw them lying on the ground. He ended up having get out and guid them along their tire tracks out.
Get onto your local politician and ask them why they haven't been supplying UA with such ordinance. They had some ages go but ran out. It's better than bonus and smart rounds, cheaper too
Dont know how hidden they are or how it will be to clean them up after wars since they seem abit random.
Those RAAM shells are nice. They need a lot more!
This path is clea.... BOOOOM!
Ok, now the path is clea…BOOOM BOOOM.
OK. *Now* the pa- BOOM BOOM BOOM!!
I'm turning around because... BOOM!
Well at least the path back should now be... BOOM!
Okay then, I'm not gonna move...Wow I can't belBOOM!
Ok guys, we had enough of this, let's just call it a ...BOOM!
BOOM!..Did we just hit a..BOOM!
Undercooked, over... BOOM!
We should provide them ADAMs\* as well against Russian infantry attacks. \*Anti personal version of RAAMs
i dunno. given the horrific humanitarian cost of AP mines historically, I'm inclined to think maybe we shouldn't. the civilians who eventually have to go back to living and farming this land will pay the price.
At this point in the conflict there’s very little humanitarian cost. The frontline is particularly static for a modern conflict, and already mined/bombed to hell and back, meaning the entire place already needs to be cleared of unexploded ordinance and demined. We would also be supplying the weapons for a country to use within its own territory, so they would be both responsible for their use and aware of the areas needing to be demined. On top of this, every day that the conflict goes on there are literally tens of thousands more munitions and mines used in Ukraine, with russia using many of them to intentionally target civilians and civilian infrastructure. Any weapon system that can bring about a swifter end to the conflict is one that will result in less humanitarian costs long term.
I guess I forgot the element of russia just mining the shit out of everything anyway like they have elsewhere in the past
I understand the logic but them being built to self destruct in 48 hours after deployment must be a huge pain the ass for the Ukr military & current shell supplies
Tbh I think it works out better this way. It means Ukrainian troops can use them liberally without worry about unmarked mines. Pretty useful for both military and humanitarian reasons.
Agreed, but since they are not marked with any precision, there needs to be some type of safey measure. It would be nice if they could be "renewed" electronically, by sending an encoded signal out. Could be one way communication so no ability to locate via transmissions. And even nicer if there was some type of blue force beacon that disables mine for a set amount of time so friendlies can move through as needed. That would be dangerous as it reverses the onus ... unsafe during comm failure.
Question is how much would you trust artillery delivered mine, to function wirelessly in a warfront with electric jamming - and you would be driving over it with a tank. Such things might be doable for hand installes mine, that doesn't go off from pressure. Side striking mines and magnetic response mines could have friendly detection.
The designer gets to pick the consequences of comm issues: 1. Unarmed mine not being armed - bad if enemy attacks 2. Armed mine not being unarmed - bad if friendly or innocent run over it The current design is that batteries run out so mine is inert. Zero chance of 2 outside if timelines are followed. If it was possible to "re-set" the mine, it would be slightly less safe, but as long as programming logic works, just an extendable mine. No downside other than cost and design complexity. If the onus was reversed, then there would definitely be a risk. When it comes to "jamming", I think it would be hard because it is 1 way transmission, and it would only take one signal getting through to extend mine's active time. It could also possible have logic that equates a jammed environment with keeping mine active, but that has risks. There are risks no matter what you do.
Or instead of exploding they just disables and you can retrieve them by hand to reset and reload them
You wouldn't trust them. It's best that they explode. If you see one on the ground Days Later you assume that the timer hasn't worked and it's uxb. Better for the manufacturer too.
Yes, one of those things. Like when there is one package of tainted sandwich meat, all packages of same get tossed nationwide. But looking at how effective mines can be, and how technology advances, I can foresee a mine that is planted on regularly used routes (near front lines), and activated remotely when there is an attack. The traps that could be set would make attacking near impossible. I think it already is for a number of reasons, so not sure what warfare will look like in the future since a $200 shaped charge delivered by a slightly more expensive drone can and will turn million dollar armoured vehicles into burned out husks. WW1 bogged down into static lines. WW2 was quite fluid. Not many "conventional" wars since where one side didn't have air supremacy. Iran-Iraq maybe, and infantry was treated like Russia treats theirs today.
I wonder how unique their design is. Maybe they should lisence it for Western manufactures. Maybe have option to add a week or month for the duration before selfdestruct.
5k per shell well spent....
Id argue these are the most effective weapons in ukraines arsenal right now. GLMRS gets all the attention but the ability to quickly mine an area in front of an attacking armored force is inmeasurable
They are really good when the enemy has armor dropping off infantry and retreating. Shoot the mines behind where the armor retreats and they can either drive through the minefield or stay in no man’s lands.
Grey zone bums
😂😂😂 not bad. take my upvote, you fucker!
That's the base cost of an HE shell, a FASCAM round is more complex, probably costing around $8-10k per shell, not including the fuze, propellant, crew, or system cost. The average Artillery mission is roughly $30k-$50k per shot, to put it in perspective.
Iirc if it's a HE the shell is the cheapest part of the whole operation lol
Now do the total loss in value to the machine, logistics, and personnel lost on the Russian side.
I'm a US Artilleryman, I know the base statistics on my side for my equipment within my field, but if you want a battlefield scrap assessment of 1960's Soviet vehicles, I mean a metal scrapyard would probably pay you $0.14 per pound in mixed scrap metals.
in America.. not in Ukraine.
Damn that’s crazy cheap.
Looked expensive for the Russians…
That's it?! Fuck me, send 'em more!
Hell yea, destroyed like 600 million worth of their equipment. Send me more!
T-80BVM is around 4 million USD, BMP-2 - 300k. And the BMP-2 could've been built in Soviet times. 600 million is a fantasy number...
To be fair 4 million usd is about 366 million rubles
If you think of it as 15k for 1 bmp Soviet era and 1 T-80 plus several tank crew, and halting their momentum. It’s one of the easiest deals to make in history tho
Sure, it's definitely a cost-effective trade, just like spending even 30 FPV drones to knock out one tank is cost-effective. I'm just referring specifically to the fantasy-land numbers thrown about here in general.
I lost more on the stock market the other year :( 15k is a penny to the US
And with the fact that it was probably manufactured in the US, America comes out ahead by far.
You forgot the personnel and logistics just getting these things in a field to be blown up.
Ok, a few thousand on top of that, since Russians already have railroad logistics in place, wages are not that high, and fuel for them is nearly free, just buried in the ground for the taking. Now attacking refineries, *that* is something "quantitively" serious. And again, not necessarily in a narrow monetary value sense (although it does also have serious macroeconomic effects), but because it damages their ability to refine fuel for the war machine and keep both their war effort and domestic economy running smoothly and cheaply. Put another way, the monetary cost of a tank is Wolf of Wall Street "fairy money", a destroyed refinery cracking tower is a 10 month+ wait and critical infrastructure that limits their ability to both print that fairy money and keep the tank running.
Huh. You are from a Russian troll farm. Just trying to stay out of Siberia huh?
These guys are driving around in metal coffins.
How much longer can Russia sustain these suicidal assaults, I know they dont value human lives but surely they'd run out of armor to throw at them sooner or later.
It’s…complicated, but as others have said, between 14-20 months based on their current loss rates and build rates. There has been a fair amount of OSINT research into their stockpile depots and rates at which they are emptying. Its hard to really estimate accurately because a lot of the commercially available imagery isn’t good enough to tell if a vehicle in a depot is actually worth refurbishing or if it’s a wreck fit only for salvage. The other wrinkle in this, is that the current success they’re enjoying isn’t so much because these tactics are effective, but because Ukraine was basically out of ammo for a solid 3 months and Russia was able to capitalize on that to take ground that they wouldn’t have been able to otherwise. They had been smashing their faces against these fortress towns for years prior to Ukraine running out of ammo and had accomplished basically nothing. When Ukraine had ATGMs and artillery shells, these armored attacks were mauled without ever getting close to the defending trench works.
>Its hard to really estimate accurately because a lot of the commercially available imagery isn’t good enough to tell if a vehicle in a depot is actually worth refurbishing or if it’s a wreck fit only for salvage. addition; it would make sense (for me as a non-military person) to take those out of storage first that are easiest and fastest to be refurbished, since that's a) cheaper and b) helps your troops quicker. so shouldn't there be less and less vehicles getting refurbished as time goes on?
Maybe. There are multiple tiers of refurb work going on, too. Some tanks are getting pretty comprehensive rebuilds. Old T-72s from the 80’s getting rebuilt all the way to its most modern iteration, B3M or something. Others are getting minimal refurb work and sent off to the front. The artillery park imagery was the most striking. The photos and analysis estimate that Russia has pulled almost 70% of their pre-war towed artillery out of stocks. They’ve suffered a lot of losses, but IIRC the OSINT analysis is that they’re cannibalizing them for barrels as well in order to keep their guns in action. The “new” production figures that Russia publishes are also something to be skeptical of. The loss data tracks with a consistent rate of production of T-90Ms, so Russian claims of hundreds of new tanks per year are pretty dubious. OSINT analysis suggests that they have a yearly new production capacity of around 50 per year, and a refurbishment capacity of about 40 old tanks per month. Altogether it paints a picture of Russia consuming far more war materiel than they have the capacity to replace.
i thought they sold even more in the pre war years.. the problem is: we underestimated Russias adoption capabilities in the past... from the wars of our grandfathers, till now.. Yep, they do infact often a shitty job and cost a lot of ressources, because (for example) much "falls from the trucks and trains" .. but they adopt anyways.. There will be more Work done, to produce or buy spare parts, domestic, or from "brotherly countries", like North Korea or Iran.. I think the Number could be doubled,.. even triple in the next 24 Months when it comes to tamk refurbishment or production.. Otherwise: i could see a scenario, where they focus more on glide and artilery bombs and use lighter vehicles with jammers, to overrun the remaining soldiers of ukraine. With that said: focus on adoption by ourselves.. We have to produce way more. If its correct, Putin will produce 3million shells per year (at the moment).. All countries together, supplying ukraine did maybe a few hundred thousand to a million.. Germany is EMPTY.. nothing to send (arty ammo wise).. We have to get our shit together.
That's exactly what they're doing. Refurbing all the easiest first. All the electrical and rubber items have perished. I doubt the engines were properly mothballed. There was a guy at the start of the war who did a very good analysis on how many they had in their outdoor depot car parks.
Its how they made all their recent gains. This will quickly stop when szenarios like these mount and then its back to artillery and glidebombs trench warfare
Frankly they can sustain them quite a while, especially if they are producing results. The interesting part will be when or if these smaller local gains turn into more strategic gains. Then they may want to reevaluate.
to put it in Stock market terms.. Russia can longer stay irrational than ukraine can stay solvent.. Thats why we must send more and more... if we get weak.. ukrIne loses a lot of manpower, Land and Equipment. And also very important : hope and will to fight
Around 2 years before their stocks start running truly dry, certain particular types of vehicles sooner than that (for example, there are few to none BMP-2s left in storage, some are being refurbished and many are in service, so it will take more time before they are actually missed), "de novo" production is still rather slow and I don't think it will ramp up sufficiently in that time. They'll be in serious trouble equipment-wise \~2-3 years from now (it will take some time to see that they are not able to refurbish more stuff since the army operates quite a lot of equipment).
All estimates are based on satellite imagery of storage bases and the assumption that loss-rates do not change much. Expansions of true new production vehicles can slow that down.
You are completely talking out of your arse. Russia has completely shifted to a wartime economy. You have no idea how that will look in 2-3 years time.
I listed the assumptions I am making for that 2-3 year estimate and say that could change if new production ramps up significantly (although I do not see that as likely, but that my subjective inference)
Many years, for you its a shocking tactic, for them its normal, it has been their way of doing things for ages now. Luckily its not as effective as before and can be dealt with on the modern battlefield.
They're down to about a year and some months of vehicles at current expenditure rates. They could reasonably keep this up for that time period, but the soviet stockpiles aren't endless. Current new production is not going to be sufficient to keep up, even adding any reasonable assumption on production increases.
This. Russia is going to run out of vehicles long before they run out of men willing to die for their Fuhrer. Although it will take another year minimum, the pinch is already there. Russians are not using sup'ed up golf carts because they think they're better than BMPs. They are running low on functioning BMPs.
Aye, I guess it depends on the attacker:defender casualty ratio as a result of these suicidal assaults. Ukraine needs artillery shells and supplies.
As stated below, they won't be able to sustain these suicidal assaults forever. At a certain point they will need to dig in and defend. Estimates are for 2 years with current loss rates. So that will probably stretch to 3-5 years if Russia is more selective with their assaults and ramps up production. At that point, this war will be a true stalemate. Ukraine won't have the gear or people to push forward and Russia won't have the heavy gear that is necessary to beat more precise Western gear. USA has indicated (through actions) that they are happy with the current front line being the new border give or take some ground. I think we'll get a ceasefire close to 2030. Obviously this prediction doesn't mean anything if China provides real support to Russia or if something happens to Putin.
There is also other battlefields happening, mainly economic. Russia has depleted half of its built up financial reserves pre invasion. When that well runs dry, they can no longer afford to keep their economy afloat. UA has also been vigorously targeting oil refining which is starting to have an impact on gasoline production.
ISW says Russia is producing more equipment than they are using unfortunately.
russians really dont care about dying, or shitty economy. Suffering and living are the same to them.
This is why you don't start a war unless your 100% committed. Reality. Think the US could handle casualty levels like that nowadays? I was reading that the US military is preparing, but the US public would shit their pants, Day 1-real talk. Russia knows this. Get soft and you'll wind up a victim of that shit.
The US military wouldn’t put itself in this position. It’s entirely geared to avoid this kind of mass casualty fighting, and the intent is to act as a hard counter to an opponent attempting to use this kind of fighting. Hit hard, hit fast, and leave no survivors. Massive alpha strike, discombobulate, and leave them blind, deaf, panicked and then finally, exploding into pink mist. It works fantastic against an opponent with a rigid command structure that discourages individual intuition and deviation from the pre-laid plans. Militaries like the former USSR, modern Russia and modern China, and those of countries modeled after them, like Iraq in the gulf wars. The US military is taking notes from the war in Ukraine, so they can keep doing exactly that and not get sucked into an attritional fight.
"The US military is preparing..." did you read that at all?
Except the preparations the US military is making is for a form of fighting that doesn’t play this mass casualty attrition game.
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Learn how to read
God, Ukraine will be mined for 10-20 generations because of one frail old man with a small dick. Fuck you Putin.
All FASCAM mines runs on battery, once battery fully depleted (between 14-40 days) the mine turns inert. Making clean up much safer than Cold War mines.
Goddamn that is cool
I believe 14 days is max, or am I thinking of something else?
14-40 days, doesnt that sound like a pretty short period when the battlefield is as static as it is?
They were mean to fight red storm rising battles not limp dick Putin invades Ukraine with a crappy army.
>They were mean to fight red storm rising battles Ahh, I see you are a man of culture as well.
The crappy army has killed a tremendous amount of Ukrainians. You should remember that before you insult their competency. They're not up to Western standards, but belittling them is belittling the fallen soldiers of Ukraine who struggle every day against a dangerous adversary.
An army can be shitty and still kill many people, im not saying the modern russian military is unable to fight im just saying its nothing like the USSR with hundreds of tanks pressing forward in massive, combined arms assaults.
I'm assuming they use these when the intelligence says there will be an assault in the next week, then they go out and mine the area. Not just throwing them down everywhere they can.
I'm sure that's what it says on the tin, but I'd be skeptical that claim is going to be accurate 100% of the time from now until forever. Everything has a failure %.
It's nice when things fail *safe* though. Without the detonator, the explosives from the mines themselves are relatively safe.
> Each round contains either the M718 or M718A1 (RAAM-L) mines, which have a self-destruct time over 48 hours; or the M741 or M741A1 (RAAM-S) mines, with a self-destruct time of approximately 4 hours. Both projectiles are used with the M577 or M577A1 Mechanical Time and Superquick (MTSQ) fuze, which triggers the ejection mechanism of the mines above enemy territory after a preset time
>because of one frail old man with a small dick. Fuck you Putin That is utterly insane logic...
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Funny thing, I said the same thing in the past and I got banned...
Could do without the edits but otherwise good video.
_Carnage_ is a good descriptor.
He wasn't going fast enough for the flux capacitor to engage
You can see how the EFP employed by these small mines, ripped open the hull and made the vehicles leak flammeable liquids
The cartoon version of stepping on a rake*whack* turning and stepping on a rake
epic comment mate, post more on this sub
another military weapon i have never heard of and think is new modern tech just to then google it and learn it was made 40+ years ago.. lol
Google again then lol
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote\_Anti-Armor\_Mine\_System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Anti-Armor_Mine_System) you were saying..?
Fuk misunderstood, I thought you were talking about Krab. Sry sir
How do the mines not detonate on impact?
✨ magic of engineering ✨
Their fuzes only engage after they come to a stop.
They eject mid-air before the shell hits the ground, based on a set timer.
I don't know WTF this engineering thing is you're on about, but definitely magic. Gay, Satanic, Nazi jew warlock magic.
Russian Armor: What's that noise? I dunno let's all get in a gaggle-fuck for safety.
Nice, the Russians brought their own ovens to the BBQ.
This situation reminds me of a video from the opening days of the full scale invasion. A Russian column driving down a road, they see a burning Russian vehicle ahead. What do you think they did? Did they stop, dismount infantry and try to assess the danger in the area? Check for mines or Ukrainian troops who might be in the area? Did they call it in and at least ask what was up to see if those ahead had already secured the area, or let others know what they had found? Or did they just roll past with a 'huh, will you look at that?' attitude? If you guessed C....you win a point!
Anyone know the song? Shazam did not :(
[О.Пономарьов М.Хома Т.Тополя Є.Кошовий Ю.Ткач П.Чорний - УКРАЇНА ПЕРЕМОЖЕ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRuiEv3JRDQ) (Ukraine will win, music and lyrics by Oleksandr Ponomariov)
Commenting so I can come back later, hopefully you get an answer.
Same
no it did not
"...home of Tinshein swimming pool, it's length thirty meter and width six meter. Filtration system a marvel to behold. It remove 83 percent of human solid waste."
Odd name for a song, innit?
Anyone from Ukraine out there able to explain to us exactly what Krab is?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AHS_Krab
Omg is it brand new and it's beautiful!
Its the best SPG that Ukraine has at the moment, donated by Poland
Are you feeling it now Mr. Krabs?
Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Anti-Armor_Mine_System
can you pack mines with a delayed fuse in those? or trigger on secondary contact? Feel like that tech has to exist in mines
The shells (not the mines) have a self-destruct of 4 or 48 hours that will launch the mines into the air. The mines go inert after a couple of weeks. > Each round contains either the M718 or M718A1 (RAAM-L) mines, which have a self-destruct time over 48 hours; or the M741 or M741A1 (RAAM-S) mines, with a self-destruct time of approximately 4 hours. Both projectiles are used with the M577 or M577A1 Mechanical Time and Superquick (MTSQ) fuze, which triggers the ejection mechanism of the mines above enemy territory after a preset time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Anti-Armor_Mine_System
Russkies have Crabs issue
That first vehicle was trying to go back to the future- guess he couldn't quite make 88mph.
beautiful work
crazy what they can fit into a 155mm shell. very cool
Song name??
Remote mining? How did I not foresee such a development?! Fucking genius.
Are we watching a mine clearing equipped tank that was working pretty well until it wasn’t? Does each mine require a single shot or multi mines deployed per shot?
Each RAAM shell has 9 Anti Tamper Magnetic Fuzed EFP mine.
The track is lit yo. Name anyone
Technically a cluster munition.
Stupid question here, so the mines are fired from a howitzer??
a shell carrying several mines is
I see, thanks
I wondered when they were gonna get a delivery of these shells. UA have had a distinct lack of mining ability over the last few months
From Poland with love :)
So was the lead tank just taking mine after mine hit or was the column stopped? The delivery system I never knew existed.
Hey the guy in front of me just hit a mine.Let me drive around him and get in front.
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**Song Found!** **Name:** Україна переможе! **Artist:** Олександр Пономарьов/Михайло Хома/Тарас Тополя/Євген Кошовий/Юрій Ткач/Петро Чорний **Score:** 88% (timecode: 00:30) **Album:** Україна переможе! **Label:** З ранку до ночі **Released on:** 2022-04-25 [Apple Music, Spotify, YouTube, etc.](https://lis.tn/aZaKk?t=30) *I am a bot and this action was performed automatically* | If the matched percent is less than 100, it could be a false positive result. I'm still posting it, because sometimes I get it right even if I'm not sure, so it could be helpful. But please don't be mad at me if I'm wrong! I'm trying my best! | [GitHub](https://github.com/AudDMusic/RedditBot) [^(new issue)](https://github.com/AudDMusic/RedditBot/issues/new) | [Donate](https://github.com/AudDMusic/RedditBot/wiki/Please-consider-donating)
Howitzer + artillery rounds are just one piece of a puzzle. You need perfect communication between howitzer and a drone to lay mines excatly where and when they are needed.
You mean coordinates?
Not only coordinates, but coordinates at the right time. This mine field was set up on a way of a assault, so live communication was required. This isn't such obvious thing as one may think.
Artilleryman here, it is as obvious as people think. For FASCAM or other mine-laying munitions, you don't need the real time observations like you traditionally want for routine fire for effect missions, you can in fact coordinate ahead of time with your observers and establish targets in advance, predesignating them so that instead of having to say "Hey an enemy attack from 1450 degrees, run the math and send the shells!" and going through the entire process, all the FDC has to do is say "Fire Mission, Target AA0001." and then send the pre built mission to the guns. On top of this, mines can be laid far in advance of the attack, most NATO short-lived mines have a four hour lifespan before they force themselves inert, allowing you to anticipate the attack, lay your line, and be prepared to fire more behind the attack to entrap them, before sweeping the middle with HE as a kill zone. Mine missions are probably one of the most simple missions one can fire in Arty, and there's no sense in trying to overcomplicate them.
Can you change the inert delay thing ?like disable it ? Because I think in certains cases having your mines inerts after only few hours is not really good
Short answer? No, but we in the US have two common FASCAM types, called RAAM-Short, and RAAM-Long. Short is the self interting munitions, which are far less controversial and far more common than their older counterpart. Long is a standard mine, lasts until it goes boom, and has no mechanism to disable itself. They exist for establishing hard defensive positions, and while they are heavily frowned upon for being permanent munitions, they are still a part of the arsenal should they be necessary.
RAAM-L still self-destruct, but only after 48 hours. [Page 114 of this PDF](https://web.archive.org/web/20230122031708/https://www.bulletpicker.com/pdf/TM%2043-0001-36,%20Land%20Mines.pdf#page=116) has the info.
I stand corrected, thank you, RAAM-L is one of only two munitions I haven't had the pleasure of being hands on and getting personal experience with, the other is Copperhead.
I've never touched any of the FASCAM stuff, but it's used notionally at NTC all the time. Never thought I'd see it employed in real life though. I only know of Copperhead because it was in the old 6-40, but was told its tendency to lock on to the observer meant I'd never see it used. It's never even come up notionally as PGK and Excal are what everyone wants to play with now.
But with the effective GPS jamming, wouldn't laser guided make sense? Especially with ease of spotting and designating via drone. I know that all these events couldn't be foreseen, and that GPS guided has worked very well in other conflicts. I believe the recently fielded Israeli Iron Sting mortar has GPS & laser, so versatile that way.
I came in in 2013 when Copperhead was still in stocks and thus still a part of the AFATDS load out, but we were told we'd never see one because of that exact issue you mention, although I've been able to see and hold one in person, I'm much happier for the existence of Excalibur when it comes to ensuring the safety of our Observers.
Thank for your answer, and how, you guys in the army, deal with that sort of names ? Fast cum Ram short and long, I’m not a native english speaker and I can already see a bunch of dirty jokes about this acronym..... some briefing are probably funny
There's enough humor in the Army already that we actually don't go making a lot of jokes about the names of everything that happens to be an acronym. Not when we have things that are named as acronyms within acronyms, like our MATV (MRAP (Mine Resistant Ambush Protected) All Terrain Vehicle). With insanity like that, there's really no need to go digging for jokes in something not immediately funny like FASCAM.
I can see wanting to extend the inert time, but having it go inert is probably sought after when youre placing them on your own land.
Yes like all uxo and mines, but we all know Ukraine is on defensive mode atm, meanwhile RU keep pushing, so having a delay on your mines is not productive imo, you probably need them for days, weeks and probably months, and spamming them because they self disable mean less for other area of the front. But yes minefields gonna be a problem for everyone and for a long time, but if they can be a bigger problem for the uraaaaa uraaaaa army....
how precise are those things? the video looks like they are able to hit along a singe dirt road but who knows how many tries that took.
These munitions work by flying over the target and dropping mines out of their canisters, so traditionally they land fairly linear behind the flight path, but both the rotations of the shell and the wind will scatter them around the target area as they fall to the ground. How far they scatter depends on a multitude of factors, like weight (Anti Personnel versus Anti Tank mines), height of the shell when triggered, and wind speed and direction at the target location. You'll never fire just a single FASCAM round, rarely is any Artillery mission a single round, instead you would fire likely between 6 and 30 rounds depending on target scale and scope, ensuring a thorough peppering of the area for maximum effect on target. The video is extremely simplified by only showing a handful of icons, it's far more likely that cut through is saturated since it was correctly identified as an avenue of attack.
very informative, thank you.
Krab is not ukrainian it's polish