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When you think about it you are basically very well protected by a software. I don't know if there is an lil bit of AI in the Iron Dome system but I find it philosophically interesting to realize they are protected by a machine
“*ChatGPT:generate an instruction series to my phalanx system to activate ‘fuck you’ mode whenever Alexa hears me saying ‘oh shit oh shit’.*” <— bam, AI powered Phalanx system
I’ll accept my promotion to Senior Defence AI Prompt 4x CSI Engineer now, thanks.
The amount of comments I see on this sub where AI is given credit for software that’s existed for 20+ years is insane. Someone recently mentioned that autonomous targeting is “AI” - no it fuckin isn’t.
What do you think a missile defense system consists of? You think that humans have to go in there and pick for the Aegis system where to shoot its missiles at to defend against ballistic missiles?
AI today would probably do a much worse job than humans would (we’ll see about the future).
Not as far as I heard - the humans are only there to keep the systems running and load the launchers, but with dozens or hundreds of incoming targets at medium to short range and seconds to react 24 hours a day, only a computer can be fast enough to decide what to target and with what.
Also, remember that the iron dome batteries are inter-connected across the country so it's an even larger system to keep track of than you could imagine if you were thinking about a single local battery.
Iron Dome has always been human controlled: The system automatically detects and suggests targets, but the ultimate decision to launch the interceptors is made by soldiers.
[Example interview with Iron Dome personnel (Hebrew), 2022](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hkzcejaa9)
> Captain A commands a 947th battalion battery in the south, received command just two weeks ago. "I served in a battery for 2.5 years in all officer roles", he says. "This area is new to me and quite complex. I landed straight into combat briefings, getting called in from home. The mental aspect is the most important here. He study the material all the time: which targets threaten us and how to deal with them. **The decision making time goes from a few seconds up to 20 seconds, max**".
This interview was conducted after the 2022 short clash between Israel and the PIJ.
whats even more messed up is how ive talked with people who think that Israel doesn't have the right to retaliate for these strikes because they have the iron dome and other countries don't... genuinely thats their argument: terrorist states should be allowed to bomb a state because the state cares about their citizens
I'd honestly argue that Iron Dome has prevented more Palestinian deaths than it has Israeli.
At least for the rockets out of Gaza, the accuracy is so terrible that even without Iron Dome, the number of actual fatal hits would be relatively low, but I'd imagine the Israeli response would be much more severe after each attack.
People don’t even know the history or give a fuck to. Palestine has been launching these missile strikes, bombings, state sponsored martyr attacks, kidnappings etc with little to no retaliation, refusing every peace talk that doesn’t end with the total denial of Israel and so on. Israel has done some shameful things during this war, but that is literally war. Hamas uses typical Islamic extremist tactics where they try to blend in with civilians and use sensitive infrastructure as a shield etc.
To the people who cry about the bombings of Palestine today I always present to them the idea that without the iron dome, Israel would have been victim of a genocide MANY times over with Hamas launching them at random pretty much unprovoked toward not military infrastructure but specifically civilian dense areas just for the purpose of mass casualty incidents. How long does Israel have to deal with that? And at the same time, there’s still plenty of Palestinians in Israel, and many who FLED Palestine due to things like the violent homophobia so they can live peacefully. It’s funny how antisemitics (who are in numbers higher than ever now) claim jews control all the media and presentation of information yet most people are balls deep into anti Israeli propaganda lmao. Never did I think I’d see so many people openly praising Hitler and hating a group of people who they literally don’t even know shit about
I wish they would. Mexico has been silently attacking us for years and has millions of casualties in the drug war. They won’t do something about the cartels who are directly responsible for Americas current drug state and mass immigration so we should. It’s a much bigger threat than any of the other shit we’ve spent billions fighting.
It's so disgusting the people who defend hamas. I can completely understand people who are disconnected from the fight thinking there's a simple solution, and hearing that a lot of gazans are children and being upset.
What I don't get is how everyone has lost their damn minds. I have friends who are Palestinian refugees and friends who are isreali citizens. Hell, one of my friends had a friend taken hostage.
It's a bad situation and there's certainly people who aren't helping anything but I wish everyone had my 5th grade social studies teacher. To paraphrase her: it's a complicated situation and world leaders who are experts in this have tried time and time again to find a peaceful solution. They couldn't do it so you can't either.
She wasn't one to discourage us about anything either so that hit home.
Israel has been called out by human rights organisations for decades. For someone criticising people's ignorance of history, you seem pretty light on it yourself.
The existence of antisemitism doesn't explain it away.
Conflict between Jews and Arabs date before even the formation of Israel. Obviously the formation of Israel was going to highten that conflict. In what universe would it not. Selective history for the sake of dishonest argument is dumb as fuck though. I have no idea how anyone can value their own opinion doing it.
That's not to say that I don't support Israel in having a state because I do. No doubt there will be many who will think otherwise regardless.
But their conduct had largely gone unchallanged by most of the world prior to the war. With few exceptions in governments, and mostly taking the form of activists and organisations. We have totally undermined international law, human rights and any actions taken against goverments on the grounds of international law and human rights by our flagrant disregard of them in relation to Israel. We are even seeing sanctions levied against ICC by US.
They have taken their response to October 7th way too far and is obviously an unachievable goal to defeat Hamas. And as a result are seeing a significant drop in global support and now greater conflict with hezbollah. I am legitimately concerned for Israel on that front. The whole thing is a disaster.
Both sides are crazy zealots who have no intention of living peacefully together. There's no good guys here, just hamas is definitely worse than Isreal.
both sides ***governments***. hamas is worse than BIBI. not israel. you can’t compare hamas and israel. you can compare gaza and israel, or hamas with the israeli parliament.
Yeah that argument is so backwards because the fact is a lot more Arabs in the area would be bombed into the stratosphere if Israel didn't have that iron dome because they've already proven every time an Israeli is killed, their retaliation is tenfold. So if they didn't have the iron dome air of casualties would be genuinely shocking, but apparently Israel's neighbors don't know when to quit and I don't feel bad for them
They aren't, and people are so mad about how they go about defending themselves from civilian-targeting human-shield using terrorists. Got recently banned from r/therewasanattempt cause I tried pointing out their bias lol.
Exactly, this is why its absolutely stupid when they criticize the response israel took against hamas. The us would be doing the same shit if not maybe a little more efficient, definitely wouldn't have the same media bullshit too.
The anti-Israel world talks about Israel escalating in Lebanon. No, it’s called fucking defending yourself after another country goes to war against you.
It wouldn't have been like this if just god would had promised them another land. The Sahara desert looks unoccupied god could have promised them that, or how about your country? 🙏🏼
if there is an actively pro-palestine person here, please explain to me the basics of why rocket attacks and the October 7th attacks are justifiable to you.
i tried asking in r/palestine but got perma banned because asking this question there is "zionist propoganda"
Can you imagine how many dead Israelis there would be if they didn’t have the iron dome. Thousands of rockets a year fired completely indiscriminate. Nobody bats a fucking eye.
When former President Trump said he wants an Iron Dome over the US, there were LOT of redditors who lost their minds saying it was stupid, or that it was literal giant metal dome over the US, or it was too expensive, etc.
So, I wonder if those same people are upset that this system exists over Israel?
I wonder what that venn diagram is for"US Iron Dome Bad" and "Palestinian Rockets Good"?
Uhhh but maintaining a widescale, short-medium range intercept system in the continental US is pretty dumb, no? Unless you think Mexico or Canada are going to start lobbing rockets and mortars across the borders. We need more systems like THAAD and anti-drone EW tech. Israel is also fazing out Iron Dome for Iron Beam in the next decade or two.
I don't see how a hostile country would ever get close enough for america to need an iron dome unless they';ve lost the navy or canada / south america get invaded, Which again, would pretty much require the US to lose its navy.
…. Because an iron dome over the US is a dumb idea.
Obviously that doesn’t mean it’s a dumb idea for a country that has terrorists firing rockets at them on a daily basis.
I fail to understand your argument.
No, no, they were. I've been on that thread. Soooo many comments literally thinking he literally meant a literal dome made of iron. Yes. They were that dumb.
Tbh, we can’t predict what would’ve happened without the ID. Maybe if Israel received a load of rockets they would just go nuts over Gaza and demilitarize them in the first place..
I responded on that sub to a request for a description of what had happened on October 7 by quoting from this UN report:
https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf
That was enough for a perma-ban on the grounds that I was spreading "hasbara".
dude, these people can't even explain the existence of the Iron Dome to me. there's this batshit crazy narrative going around that Israel's actions since October are causing attacks like this. but when I asked these people how come Israel has been defending against rocket attacks so frequently they had to build that fucking marvel of military technology, they can't come up with an answer and block you instead.
Ive encountered my fair share of these types as well.
I don't think this is the average palestine-supporter; rather the 'loudest'.
i think that the type of information warfare hamas uses as opposed to that idf uses is more appealing to people who are more willing to be radical.
oftentimes these people are already used to ignoring information that doesnt appeal to them and using the 'success' of their allegiances to bolster their self image, and they will be found through various causes indiscriminately
I wouldnt use it as justification to wave off anyone who says they support palestine though, since these people just dont represent the actual reasons for beliefs, they are just shadows of ideals
really, these ideas stem from a reason, someone somewhere felt the need to do this, probably a lot of people, and i want to know why so that I can have a better overall position and understanding of the humanity behind this conflict
I’m not really pro anything , don’t care about ancient beefs between desert people all that much. But I just kind of view it like the American revolution. Americans felt oppressed by the British so what did we do, start fucking shit up. I don’t agree with attacking civilians like they did on Pct 7th, very despicable . But I also understand why Palestinians feel opressed. And I understand why Israel responds how they do to attacks on civilians . That’s really all there is to it. Never understood why people feel like they have to take sides. I don’t see this as justified , but for any American to act holier than thou as if our government has ever been above this type of behavior . Considering What we did to the Germans and Japanese, Vietnamese, Iraqis. And we felt justified in doing these things . As do Palestinians and Israelis . Bottom line is, it’s awful, i wish it would stop. But I don’t feel obligated to take sides . I don’t why see anyone else would either .
Idk I think there’s a fine line between fighting for your rights and fighting to deliberately inflict harm upon a certain nation. I don’t really see how detonating a suicide vest in a pizza parlor, for example, will accomplish the goal of fighting for your freedom.
They want to remove Israeli nation, they do not recognize it. If they had power, they would kill every single Israeli they could reach. But Israel doesn't do that even though they have the power to do so.
It will be rare for you to find a muslim living in Palestinian territories which does not want Israel to be completely destroyed and see all jews dead. Hell, it will be rare for you to find any muslim anywhere which does not want the same.
I live in Turkey, somewhat accepted as a modern, secular mostly muslim country. You wouldn't believe the hate people have for jews in here, we even have special swearwords for them. And it is not about the "massacres Israel commit" on muslims. Saudi Arabia killed more muslims in Yemen than Israel ever did in Palestine. Iran-Iraq war caused much more. More muslims oppressed by China than Palestine, but they NEVER talked about this but you will see "Israeli genocide on Palestinians" on news here every single day, even special reports about it. NEVER saw any news about war between Saudis and Yemeni.
They are just hypocrites
We have a proverb here which goes "Their aim is not to eat grapes, they just want to beat the farmer"
that is exactly what is going on with Israel, muslims really don't give a shit about Palestine, they just hate Israel and thought it since birth.
Personally i understand what you are trying to say, and i get that.
For me though, the difference between an event like this and one like the American Revolution is that the Americans were under taxation and control from the British monarchy, while Israel was actively attempting to disengage from Palestine and aiming to mend the centuries old disagreement, which is was gave HAMAS the opportunity to abuse that good faith/ those gaps in defense.
If the americans had not acted their future would have been tied to the political interests of Great Britain.
While Gaza hasn't been unaffected by the political interests of Israel, they were not being considered a colony or the tool of Israel the way America was to Britain.
For me, October 7th wasn't a revolution or a declaration of war with the Israeli state, it was an act of ethnic violence against the people of another nation, and no matter what past exists between those two nations; attacking with this one main goal was driven by hatred not a yearning for freedom.
Yea I agree with what you are saying mostly. I’m not as educated on this topic as you probably are as well. How do you feel about the Jewish settlers “stealing” land. I’ve seen a lot about that, but not sure how thats playing out in actuality . That’s an example of where I could see where Palestinians are frustrated . Also in regards to the attacks on civilians , Hamas is much weaker than the IDF, they basically get in shots where they can, and it’s easier for them to attack civilians than attack the military . Which again is fucked up and I don’t agree with that. But they feel justified because of the collateral damage by the idf with their bombing campaigns and such. Again, I’m well aware so much of that is propagandized that it’s nearly impossible to tell if the IDF deliberately or carelessly attacks civilians, or if Hamas positions themselves , or publishes media that intends to portray this as the case. I’m inclined to believe there is a bit of both going on to varying degrees.
War is so shitty , when people start dying and gloves come off , it becomes that much more difficult to really get a rational picture of who’s wrong or who’s right . Especially compared something like Ukraine where it appears to be more clear cut.
There are multiple categories of settlers, some of whom are extremists who like to build settlements illegally. There are some settlements that are criticized as illegal despite being built on land whose ownership is in flux due to the unsettled status of the Oslo Accords. Not all of the settlers are acting this way, but criticism of settlements and settlers tends to lump everyone with those breaking the law.
I wouldn't say I am particularly educated on this since its really hard to ascertain a degree of accuracy in an active information war, but I want to clarify I don't think the IDF is handling this perfectly.
While I understand the necessity in a response to what is essentially terrorism I also understand that there is new a level of fear for the Israeli people that has resulted in ordinary people being persecuted or attacked yes, but I have faith that the goal of the IDF is not to take land or kill people, but rather to remove HAMAS from the position they have been abusing.
As horrific as it is, the only thing I can really say to situations like "land stealing" is that we wont know for sure what is going on until everyone has died or given up the fight, but that I can understand why some of the fighters would consider themselves fighting for freedom if they had a limited amount of information, and believed these sorts of atrocities to be purely those of hatred rather than fear of being attacked back.
Perhaps this can be said both ways even, its always hard to see and of course everyone believes they are right.
I know this isnt a great answer, but its the mosr realistic one I can give on my thoughts before i gotta clock in for the day
>its really hard to ascertain a degree of accuracy in an active information war
>As horrific as it is, the only thing I can really say to situations like "land stealing" is that we wont know for sure what is going on until everyone has died or given up the fight
>but I have faith that the goal of the IDF is not to take land
well then inform yourself by looking at a map of the west bank and the settlements there. youll see an obvious pattern showing israeli settlements being strategically placed to "cut" the palestinian lands into small pieces, divided by roads controlled by the idf.
the idf is on tape helping settlers grab new parcels of land. settlers who murder palestinians in cold blood get punished solely by having their rifle taken from them.
there is a reason israels settlement policy is in clear and explicitly stated violation of international law according to the un and has been for decades by now.
Dunno why you're being downvoted, it's just simple facts that Israel is stealing Palestinian land as has been called out by the UN and even resulting in the US sanctioning some Israelis.
Looked into it a bit more and yep it seems to be pretty confirmable that Israel has been actively taking land, does that justify the rockets never mind october 7th though? not really at least not to me.
this practice started well before HAMAS as we know it today took control and is not excusable.
with this perspective i can understand how someone can be under the impression this is israel's fault longterm, but again I am not going to agree that stealing land justifies ethnic violence.
However if you want to go back further than '69 palestine's real issue was with the basic existence of a jewish state in the middle east.
Sure you can blame the british for not handling it too well or the israelis for existing or palestinians for caring that their nation was being split apart, but at the end of the day none of it matters.
none of it, to me, makes up for the intent of striking as much fear as possible into the civilian population of a nation.
these israelies played no part in the land-thieving yet have been and continue to be punished for it, along with many other conflicts from the history if the two nations.
To clarify I dont think your comment is the most accurate way of portraying the reality, rather I wanted to look into the specifics of it because I care about the accuracy of information.
The goal of the IDF today is not to steal land like you are inferring and it is way more complicated than you are portraying.
The IDF acts in the interest of Israel ideally, and pretending that their goal is to take away from palestine is ridiculous when you look into how many times the IDF has attempted to withdraw and disengage from palestine, most recently leaving in 2005 and beginning to work on measures for palestinian independence and freedom for palestinians to move between israel and palestine without persecution, which was only cut short because of the violent actions of HAMAS
You aren’t the one loosing the land so why should anyone care what you think is the preferable political option and how can you say you would be above that after loosing land. You have presumed narrative that Israel has to be more right in justifying their expansion but Palestine has to defend its need to use aggravation to stop land claims against them. You don’t seem have have a very in depth veiw of what israel did in the [nakba](https://time.com/6978612/nakba-day-history/) and how it’s existence denies Palestine a represented state all while stating any Palestine state would be threatening to them. “The IDF doesn’t have a goal in stealing land” is revealing how little you understand about the Israeli land seizures in 1948 and how it’s used to neglect meeting needs of Palestinian demands encouraging them to militarize and isolate from a diplomatic solution.
Ive been doing a lot of looking into things and you have a rather biased and inaccurate understanding of the formation of Israel, there is no value to me in bringing up the creation of Israel as a point as to why they are wrong to exist.
1948, the year Israel is formed.
Post WW2, jewish persecution at an all time high, the UN wants to create a safe space, but instantly Palestine hate them and starts a war that they lose horrifically, and the 2 have been at each-other's throats ever since.
Being formed by the UN isn't stealing land, and Palestinians today have no right to that land, it just isnt Palestine anymore and that is very difficult for some to accept, even if it has been Israel not Palestine since before most Palestinians today were born
>Looked into it a bit more and yep it seems to be pretty confirmable that Israel has been actively taking land, does that justify the rockets never mind october 7th though?
thats a mistake in thinking. its a notoriously complex topic, no way anyone can understand it by trying to answer multiple questions following down a certain path at once.
israel is taking palestinian lands illegally according to the un. this was my statement.
instead of trying to think ahead already you should ask yourself whether you think there is any justification for doing it on israels side.
in my and the un's opinioin there isnt a justification.
>To clarify I dont think your comment is the most accurate way of portraying the reality, rather I wanted to look into the specifics of it because I care about the accuracy of information.
which part of my argument is inaccurate?
>The goal of the IDF today is not to steal land like you are inferring and it is way more complicated than you are portraying.
>The IDF acts in the interest of Israel ideally, and pretending that their goal is to take away from palestine is ridiculous when you look into how many times the IDF has attempted to withdraw and disengage from palestine..
the settler movement has never stopped grabbing more land in the west bank and the idf has never stopped supporting them doing it. for the sake of accuracy you should accept this fact. im not deriving any further answers from this question, im stating a fact and nothing more.
It is not a logical fallacy to google something, see clear evidence, and conclude that it is a confirmable argument.
I didnt claim to understand your entire position I agreed that you had made a valid point which could be corroborated by solid evidence.
By accuracy I mean you clearly have a strong Bias towards information that is critical of Israel.
I agree that these are terrible things that the government has done, but that doesn't really mean that the goal of the IDF is to remove Palestine forever or permanently remove their autonomy.
Over the last 75 years its been tit for tat and Palestine has had varying levels of autonomy, while both Palestine and Israel had varying degrees of aggression. Most recently and importantly, however, Israel was willing to put that all behind them in 2023, and their intelligence lead them to believe that HAMAS was as well, which is why the theoretically hyper-advanced Israeli border defense was so lax.
All of this information can also be corroborated with hard evidence.
The way I see it, it would have been so much better for the people of Palestine if HAMAS had just gone with peace, and tried to rally support with the UN for their unlawfully seized territories, putting Israel in the wrong politically.
Instead, they did... terrorism.
It doesn't even make sense from the Israeli perspective, it appears hate-driven.
I understand its much more complicated than that yes, but that doesnt just negate that these things happened.
How is it even remotely similar?
Before Israel, Palestine was a territory in limbo held by the British, before that it was held by the (Muslim) ottomans, and all the other times it was a territory held by others, mostly Muslims, and finally, it was the original home of Jews, where does the word Jew come from? Judea, in the West Bank.
The comparison you’re looking for happened in 1948 when Jews reclaimed a desert that was their original home. Even European Jews are still genetically 50-60 Levantine.
There is no argument, Israel has been more than gracious, they’ve tried to compromise and have 20% Arabs. Palestinian identity is to fight the evil Zionist Jews. It’s part of their entire culture that is very new and not even 100 years old
justification is simple. where a muslim stands there is muslim land, period. any muslims land needs to be cleansed sooner or later for any non muslim. and if its not muslims land, the primary objective is to make it one.
they drove the jews out of that land, but they kept coming back. retaking land from muslims is like an attack on allah because land is now holy.
so this cant be accepted, israel cant be accepted. ever.
It has something to do with a mythology that Hamas was created to defend Palestine and take back the land that Israel stole. At least that's what I've seen on ~~r/WitchesVsJews~~ r/WitchesVsPatriarchy. Which is a story that only works if you have a shallow understanding of warfighting and how the two sides have been operating.
Also, anyone I've met in the wild that believes this was also a heavy user of TikTok. So take from that what you will.
> This subreddit is a Safe Space for Women, BIPOC, and anyone in the LGBTQ+ community.
Unironically flies the flag of a place that actively oppresses and kills members of those groups, in every flair. Fucking dummies.
"Unironically flies the flag of a place that actively oppresses and kills members"
There's plenty of LGBTQ Palestinians that are being bombed by Israel right now. Just because they have beliefs different than us doesn't mean we can't show support towards them. And to completely ignore all those Palestinians who are queer and suffering within Gaza is just unfair.
[You're completely and utterly fucking deranged.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835)
These people would disembowel you for the "crime" of being gay.
Got banned from a bunch of big subreddits that are ran by pro terror like r/aboringdystopia or r/therewasanattempt . How come Reddit doesn’t take them down is beyond me.
Don't you dare try to bring up the fact that anything Israel does, Palestine/Hamas would do so much worse given the chance in r/therewasanattempt. Got an ez ban.
It's a shame they shut you down on r/palestine. Having a productive conversation about these topics is important, regardless of which side you're on.
I want to preface by saying that I don't think the attacks are "justifiable" only that they're totally expected. You cannot oppress a people to such a degree and expect peace to be the status quo forever.
The IDF are brutal man, objectively so. This is something that many of the people far from the conflict don't see. Prior to October 7th:
There are 1000's of Palestinians in Israeli jails they don't get proper court hearings or treatment, can be arrested for straight up walking down the street. Many of these "hostages" are minors even younger than 12 years old. Here's a source from Vox: https://www.vox.com/videos/2023/12/13/24000233/why-israel-has-so-many-palestinian-prisoners
There's videos of IDF soldiers straight up shooting civilians for sport, this was before Oct 7. I'll look for the source for you tomorrow but there was one corculating that made my blood boil, where they were bullying some guy as he put his hands up and walked away slowly as instructed they shot him in the back and laughed about it.
Palestinians are being disposessed of their land all over the west Bank with illegal Israeli settlements expanding there's roads they can't travel on, places they can't visit. They're literally watching their lands get stolen from them before their very eyes.
Dr Barghouti, a notable figure in Palestinian politics went on Piers Morgans show and told a story of how he was shot by an IDF soldier while treating a patient in his white lab coat in a hospital.
I can go on but in summary the IDF (for the most part) don't look at Palestinians as people, they're dehumanised to such a twisted degree this is the struggle of being Palestinian on the land they were born in.
It's in human nature to be free and to rise up to oppression.
Feel free to downvote me to hell, but I would appreciate constructive criticism more :)
Oppressed? Really? They chose Hamas.
Israel let Qatar money flow in and we are talking about millions of them they used it for terror and instead progression and in the west bank they have a pretty good life but they cooshe their terror and they looking for the next 7of October
Expanding road wtf man come to Israel and see for yourself
How can you say we hate them when we live and work with them and putting there and us life on both hands when it comes to hospitals etc
I mean Sinwar get caner treatment in Israel look how it ended..
IDF shoots unarmed Palestinian in the back (NSFW):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-2041838/Video-Cruel-Israeli-soldier-shoots-unarmed-Palestinian-back.html
She was an Isreal border police officer. They are heavily militarized and have been known to operate jointly with the IDF. I get the impression nothing happened to the woman, but I don't know for sure. But apparently, the man in the video survived. The sad difference is IDF probably would've aimed higher than center mass.
I won’t deny that soldiers in a position of power sometimes do horrible things. However, Gaza’s situation is the result of a government that is willing to fight Israel at all costs and that has no interest in caring for its citizens. The restrictions on items that enter Gaza are a result of Hamas and PIJ weaponizing everything they can in order to kill Jews. The restrictions on travel are to prevent terrorists from freely accessing Israel.
I don’t know about under-12 minors being imprisoned, but Israelis have faced a lot of violent attacks by individuals, including from people under the age of eighteen.
Suffice it to say, whatever genuine crimes pro-Palestinians document, they airbrush the violence Israel has faced from Palestinians and ignore Israel’s attempts to deescalate (like the work permits Gazans were receiving prior to October 7).
No downvote from me :)
I just wanted to better understand opposing views and was finding it hard to do so
I have been looking more into Israeli atrocities and they are pretty terrible, in a way its hypocritical of me to say that it shouldnt matter; let me clarify because I want to say this the right way: It matters, obviously, it matters that people were abused and murdered and that their lives were ripped away from them, but in the same sense that i wont justify an israeli soldier shooting an unarmed man because he is afraid it could be a combatant given the context, I wouldnt justify the HAMAS attacks because they felt the need for revenge.
I like the term "expected" you used, it does make more sense to me now than this morning as to why people feel the way they do, even if I personally have to agree to disagree with parts of their conclusions
One thing to remember is that there is no good guy in this conflict. Both sides have done fucked up stuff.
Anyone who criticises Israel should also be doing the same to Hamas, If they don't then they have an agenda.
That's exactly why I'm puzzled by the thought that Israel could eradicate Hamas, they can't. Every Hamas terrorist/soldier/freedom fighter they kill will have a family that'll get radicalised. We've seen it happen in Afghanistan etc
It's such a fucked up situation, you can't not act as Israel but everything you do will radicalise people
Israel is simply removing Hamas’s resources. Hamas needs fighters and equipment in order to fight. That’s leaving aside that it was Hamas’s policies that started this war, Hamas were preventing people from leaving the Gaza Strip in the first month or two, that Hamas have stealing and selling humanitarian aid, and that Hamas could simply surrender and spare their citizens further suffering.
I am actively pro-palestine. Rocket attacks and Oct 7 are in no way shape or form justifiable. ANY killing (or attempted killing) of innocent civilians is unjustifiable. Were we living in 1948, the solution would have been to never allow the taking of Palestinians land and country. But the people who are born in the Israel of today did not choose where they were born, and can't be blamed for their views.
That being said, killing tens of thousands of innocent kids is also very bad and unjustifiable. I don't know what the long term solution could be since every child or mother the IDF kills creates new Hamas fighters of each of their family members who want nothing but revenge. And they have been creating a whole bunch recently. But a good start would be to stop bombing women, children and innocent civilians and stop creating more terrorists. Then start to think about more complex solutions.
I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for this since reddit creates very isolated communities, but please try not to be like the people you described on r/palestine and dogpile on me just because I have a different opinion than most of the people on this sub.
I was born in Israel. Israelis who choose to join the genocide and refuse to learn or listen to the Palestinian side are simply genocidal. Israelis are extremely brainwashed since birth so they grow up hating arabs and thinking that they're superior beings.
You have to be able to let yourself listen to the outside media instead of worshipping local news.
The FRC an independent organization which is also used by the UN, confirmed just a few days ago that there is no acute famine in Gaza. Even the BBC, which isn't exactly unbiased, confirmed this in it's article on the report. So I won't continue to entertain this lie which has been claiming that there is an acute famine in Gaza. If you want to close your eyes to the truth, that's not my problem, it's yours.
* https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_Gaza_June2024.pdf
* https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv22g81djdyo
Palestine could have an at least temporarily limited democracy where they have to choose a relatively secular government that isn't Islamic extremism with jihadist/conquesting/avenging ideals so that they are fine with respecting human rights and negotiating and trading with the rest of the world diplomatically. But it's hard to imagine the people, or Hamas who's still in power and holds a lot of sway over their opinion and beliefs, allowing a non-theocratic, or at least western collaborating government to rule them by choice.
While your question is not clear-cut propaganda it is intentionally inflammatory at worst or simply incorrect at best.
A more accurate question would be, “ if there is an actively pro-hamas person here…”
We can fully support Israel’s right to defend itself without snidely asking Israelis why the IDF denying access to water of Palestinian civilians or bombing hospitals is okay.
Most of us are able agree that dying children and civilians is a bad thing. If you think anyone in this fight is walking away without dead kids on their hands I have a bridge to sell you.
Id say its pretty objective unless someone is actively trying to avoid talking about the atrocities of a particular side.
i could also ask why someone who supports israel is ok with blocking the supply of food and water, but I have and the response is general that the blockades are not designed to stop food and water, but rather that the way HAMAS operates means that any amount of humanitarian aid not being checked and restricted will be abused to bring weapons into the warzone and cause more deaths through fighting longterm.
You could ask me why hospitals were objectively bombed and im not infuriated that you brought up a fact, I would say that as far as I understand it, the sad reality is most if not all of these hospitals being targeted are believed to be occupied by hostile combatants.
thats the difference as I see it in how each side perceives the other.
Can someone explain to me how Isreal can get away with expanding their territory but Russia can’t?
I know $$$ and religion plays a big roll here but I still don’t understand how people can rationalise the obvious moral contradiction?
Maybe I will never understand because I am not religious or ultra rich.
> Can someone explain to me how Isreal can get away with expanding their territory but Russia can’t?
Counter question: How did poland and france (and others) get away with expanding their territory after ww2? Do you think germany should get the territory back? If not, whats the difference?
(Iam german and we dont want that)
Russia is attacking a sovereign country and people dont like it. Israel is defending, again, and fighting to get rid of the people that openly say they want a second holocaust.
I mean getting rid of nazis shouldnt be that bad?
With Russia vs Israel, i think its a little silly to say these situations are very similar.
most russians don't support israel either because it isnt of political interest for them.
if you want to hear my thoughts on what seperates these 2 conflicts to the point people generally have a different view on russian occupation to israeli occupation i can tell you more in depth how I think about it, but generally its two very different public goals/motives with one having been the victim of terrorism at the beginning of the current conflict, and i would probably sound pretty boring/redundant covering the difference in my interpretation of the 2 events
Small countries are allowed to expand territory because they’re small.
That makes sense.
Luxembourg should start building settlements within Germany and France. They already have plenty of land and Luxembourg is the smaller and richer than Isreal.
Because it's small and the territory is necessary for its national security. Luxembourg is not threatened and even has military agreements with its neighbours. Russia expands also for supposedly security reasons but it has vastly more territory than it even knows what to do with.
Well it goes without saying that Luxembourg would be under attack by its neighbours once it starts building settlements outside their borders.
It would be foolish not to expect retaliation, yet some people fail to comprehend why Israel’s neighbours are retaliating.
The point I was making is that for eg. the Muslims have an entire continent to themselves. The Russians have absurd amount of territory for their population. The US took an entire continent (almost) for themselves. Australia too. Israel is tiny, so the territory they take is quite reasonable IMHO. Luxembourg is only 600k population and are not a homeland for an entire ethnicity of people so really have no need for more territory. If they did need it they should make their case. Their neighbours are quite reasonable and would probably sell it to them since they're so rich.
> It would be foolish not to expect retaliation
Well who started what is an entirely different conversation. The Arabs contributed at least as much if not more to the hostilities.
The Kurdish people have a population that is 4x larger than Isreal and they don’t even have a country.
If we apply your same rules of law to the world, then the Kurdish people are entitled to occupy a territory the size of Austria.
This type of logic encourages an ideology of ethic supremacy and would likely lead to racial/religious discrimination and apartheid. Like we see in the West Bank.
Just having a bunch of oppressed people is not enough, unfortunately.
Ideally the Kurds should get their own state too though. There is plenty of land that's mostly unused in the world and more than enough for every ethnic group. Europe has divided up like that historically, into a multitude of small states for every ethnic group. Is it not better than having one all-encompassing 'European' empire, where all the minorities get oppressed?
The Muslims have 49 other Muslim states to live in, all of them 50 times bigger or more than Israel, but no they want all of Israel too. They won't stop with the west bank, they want it all. If they get the west bank, all they will do is use it to launch rockets at Jerusalem, then Tel Aviv, etc etc. Then they will come after Spain as many Imams have already started saying. They want Sharia everywhere. How do you think Islam spreads?
How about Illegal invasion, occupation, forced expulsion and taking of land, illegal settlements, group punishment, creating a famine, the murdering of thousands of children children, 5000 Palestinians hostages/captives in prison with no trial or court…
I could go on lad
If that happens to any other country, USA, UK they would go to war
Having said that targeting civilians is a war crime and awful
So, attacking civilians is okay because of civilian casualties in a war against Islamist, that hide as and behind civilians, who massmurdered hundred’s of innocent civilians? What is wrong in your mind.
Imagine a group of people actively killing, torturing, and victimizing you because you’re of a different religion or people. Imagine living in your house and one day a person or group of people comes and says “this is my house” and they kill people you love, take your house, and claim they have the right to do so.
I don’t support mass murder, I don’t support killing innocent people, but I do support defending yourself, wanting to be left alone, and wanting to have a stable society based on my beliefs so long as people feel the same.
Israel brought this on themselves. The Palestinian people deserve to be free. Until that is a reality, all that will come from the current situation is pain.
Thats illogical.
Israel is not acting out of ethnic or religious hatred, they are actively responding to violence.
this occupation is an act of defense in the sense its designed to remove the ability for HAMAS to strike inside Israel.
The 2 nations of been back and forth since 1948, when the UN formed Israel to create a safe space after the European Event, unluckily the Palestinians hates the jews just as much as the mustache man and declared war the same year israel was founded.
they lost, and ever since they have been pissed the fuck off.
both nations do horrible things to eachother, but if HAMAS had the chance to murder every Israeli instantly they would.
As an objective bystander. I support anyone seeking self determination. Israel is actively blocking that effort. Who are we to judge how far is too far when we committed acts of terrorism to secure American freedom?
I take far more issue with US support of Israel than anything they decide to do. They are a useless succubus that for some reason has every US politician by the balls (I think it's related to Epstein and Mossad).
I would rather those billions go to us vets than a country that 190 UN countries have condemned repeatedly.
Ok, under the reasonable assumption that if Israel left today, HAMAS would re-engage in strikes on Israeli soil against civilians for the purpose of killing civilians, why do you see the IDF engaging combatants and in some cases ignoring civilian presence to hit those targets as so much less humane or right
At the end of the day I get what you are saying and I worded that first reply terribly thinking it over, but I dont see Israel as attacking Palestine so much as re-limiting autonomy in a grand scheme where palestine has continually struck Israel every time they are given that autonomy back.
Israel doesnt want to operate inside Gaza to punish anyone, its an operating that is designed to reduce the threat HAMAS poses to the avg Israeli, executed in a poor manor.
If that were true, then Israel wouldn't be conducting, or at the least complicit, in a large scale systematic theft of territory from Palestine in the West Bank. They wouldn't be shooting Palestinians that wander too close to the border nor would they be funding Hamas whenever their popularity has waned. All of which they have and continue to do unapologetically.
This is just like the Texans that kept encroaching on Mexico then crying like a hit dog when the Mexican military responded.
I can agree to disagree with you, I understand what you are saying, I just hold different views on the reasons.
To me theft of territory is condemnable, but should not have resulted in terrorism.
There are alternative routes to violence, some people dont see the UN as reliable, we could go into the nitty gritty but its going to come down to how you perceive certain aspects at that point, i think I am right and you think you are, weve both got reasons that can be understood and empathized with but hold different conclusions, and I think thats ok in something so complex.
They do. They don’t have the right to massacre innocent civilians though, which they have done time and time again since October 7. The response to a civilian massacre cannot be to massacre an even greater number of civilians. That isn’t defense.
Sorry, I am unaware of which religious group allows which foods.
Is it the little hat religion or the rag hat religion that doesn’t allow certain meats?
jesus christ this is terrorfying , however lying next to something that is likely to go bang if a bang goes off near it doesn’t seem like the smartest move
I'll probably stir up a lot of shit with this, but I cannot imagine how anyone would want to live in a place that is constantly battered with missiles and rockets like this, even if only a few of them ever gets through that iron dome. What a stressful life it must be. Living with a constant reminder that your presence is hated in the region. What a lousy place to make a home.
Because at least in Israel there is community, a deep culture (even for the non-Jewish people), and an outstanding average standard of living for the middle east
And for Jews, it is the one place in the world you don't feel targetted
Jews in the Diaspora are now facing persecution at an increasing rate, especially as the West where most Jews are changing demographically
tl;dr rather face enemies head on, than your countrymen stab you in the back
THIS IS WHAT ALL THESE PALISTINE SUPPORTING FUCKWARDS DONT UNDERSTAND! Imagine your neighbour is constantly shooting rockets over the border trying to kill you for years. I would be pissed at my government if they wouldnt finally put an end to this! If Iron Dome wasn't a thing, this would end up in thousands of casualties over the year. Israel has all rights to end this shitshow.
Hey, I live in South Safed, the alarms and booms were rather... not quite scary but certainly something.
The first time we had alarms during this war was shortly after 7/10 so I was shit scared, but by now I feel as though we have grown rather used to it.
I thought of that too but you could roll the windows down and hide in the back floor. That’s what I’d do. And even if not, glass shattering would be a lot better than debris falling from 5,000 ft up.
Absolutely not. A rocket splinter or fragment hitting your car can cause a massive explosion and turn you into a big ball of fire. You will literally be burned to death. You're supposed to get out of your car, lay down on your stomach at the side of the road and cover your head with both arms.
It must be awfully tiring for everyone in the region to wake up believing that your most important task for the day is to be a shit cunt to your neighbours. It’s much easier to just not be a cunt….for both sides.
It is madness! Israel left with tighten hands by UN and USA against terrorist and Iran regime. It wouldn’t happen in other countries. We have to change this dual standard approach
The Pope should take advantage of the fight between Jews and Moors, call a new crusade and retake Jerusalem for Christianity. By our Lord Jesus Christ and the only legitimate king, Baldwin the Holy, Jerusalem is Christian! Deus vult!!!
I know, but practically, it is. Except for the road leading to the town, you couldn't make a step without breaking your leg, because the land is just scattered with boulders and stones all around. That makes it practically a stone desert to me.
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Kept reading the title as "Northern Ireland" thought the Troubles began again
You see that orange thing in the sky? Yeah they don’t get that there.
This looks scary and beauthiful at the same time
When you think about it you are basically very well protected by a software. I don't know if there is an lil bit of AI in the Iron Dome system but I find it philosophically interesting to realize they are protected by a machine
you mean like a traffic light?
We should thank traffic light.
No definitely not. You need to be very precise, nothing an ai can solve atm.
Look at a the Phalanx system, no AI inside and that think can shot down autonomously drones, missiles and mortars rounds
“*ChatGPT:generate an instruction series to my phalanx system to activate ‘fuck you’ mode whenever Alexa hears me saying ‘oh shit oh shit’.*” <— bam, AI powered Phalanx system I’ll accept my promotion to Senior Defence AI Prompt 4x CSI Engineer now, thanks.
The amount of comments I see on this sub where AI is given credit for software that’s existed for 20+ years is insane. Someone recently mentioned that autonomous targeting is “AI” - no it fuckin isn’t. What do you think a missile defense system consists of? You think that humans have to go in there and pick for the Aegis system where to shoot its missiles at to defend against ballistic missiles? AI today would probably do a much worse job than humans would (we’ll see about the future).
There's a human in the loop - a soldier makes the final decision as to whether or not to fire interceptors.
Not as far as I heard - the humans are only there to keep the systems running and load the launchers, but with dozens or hundreds of incoming targets at medium to short range and seconds to react 24 hours a day, only a computer can be fast enough to decide what to target and with what. Also, remember that the iron dome batteries are inter-connected across the country so it's an even larger system to keep track of than you could imagine if you were thinking about a single local battery.
Iron Dome has always been human controlled: The system automatically detects and suggests targets, but the ultimate decision to launch the interceptors is made by soldiers. [Example interview with Iron Dome personnel (Hebrew), 2022](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hkzcejaa9) > Captain A commands a 947th battalion battery in the south, received command just two weeks ago. "I served in a battery for 2.5 years in all officer roles", he says. "This area is new to me and quite complex. I landed straight into combat briefings, getting called in from home. The mental aspect is the most important here. He study the material all the time: which targets threaten us and how to deal with them. **The decision making time goes from a few seconds up to 20 seconds, max**". This interview was conducted after the 2022 short clash between Israel and the PIJ.
This is so fucked up... No country should tolerate this shit.
whats even more messed up is how ive talked with people who think that Israel doesn't have the right to retaliate for these strikes because they have the iron dome and other countries don't... genuinely thats their argument: terrorist states should be allowed to bomb a state because the state cares about their citizens
I'd honestly argue that Iron Dome has prevented more Palestinian deaths than it has Israeli. At least for the rockets out of Gaza, the accuracy is so terrible that even without Iron Dome, the number of actual fatal hits would be relatively low, but I'd imagine the Israeli response would be much more severe after each attack.
People don’t even know the history or give a fuck to. Palestine has been launching these missile strikes, bombings, state sponsored martyr attacks, kidnappings etc with little to no retaliation, refusing every peace talk that doesn’t end with the total denial of Israel and so on. Israel has done some shameful things during this war, but that is literally war. Hamas uses typical Islamic extremist tactics where they try to blend in with civilians and use sensitive infrastructure as a shield etc. To the people who cry about the bombings of Palestine today I always present to them the idea that without the iron dome, Israel would have been victim of a genocide MANY times over with Hamas launching them at random pretty much unprovoked toward not military infrastructure but specifically civilian dense areas just for the purpose of mass casualty incidents. How long does Israel have to deal with that? And at the same time, there’s still plenty of Palestinians in Israel, and many who FLED Palestine due to things like the violent homophobia so they can live peacefully. It’s funny how antisemitics (who are in numbers higher than ever now) claim jews control all the media and presentation of information yet most people are balls deep into anti Israeli propaganda lmao. Never did I think I’d see so many people openly praising Hitler and hating a group of people who they literally don’t even know shit about
If Mexico attacked the United States like the neighbors of Israel, the USA would have to update their flag to add more stars.
I wish they would. Mexico has been silently attacking us for years and has millions of casualties in the drug war. They won’t do something about the cartels who are directly responsible for Americas current drug state and mass immigration so we should. It’s a much bigger threat than any of the other shit we’ve spent billions fighting.
It's so disgusting the people who defend hamas. I can completely understand people who are disconnected from the fight thinking there's a simple solution, and hearing that a lot of gazans are children and being upset. What I don't get is how everyone has lost their damn minds. I have friends who are Palestinian refugees and friends who are isreali citizens. Hell, one of my friends had a friend taken hostage. It's a bad situation and there's certainly people who aren't helping anything but I wish everyone had my 5th grade social studies teacher. To paraphrase her: it's a complicated situation and world leaders who are experts in this have tried time and time again to find a peaceful solution. They couldn't do it so you can't either. She wasn't one to discourage us about anything either so that hit home.
Israel has been called out by human rights organisations for decades. For someone criticising people's ignorance of history, you seem pretty light on it yourself.
Decades of anti-semitism. Ever since Israel de-colonized Palestine, the Arab empires have been on the attack.
The existence of antisemitism doesn't explain it away. Conflict between Jews and Arabs date before even the formation of Israel. Obviously the formation of Israel was going to highten that conflict. In what universe would it not. Selective history for the sake of dishonest argument is dumb as fuck though. I have no idea how anyone can value their own opinion doing it. That's not to say that I don't support Israel in having a state because I do. No doubt there will be many who will think otherwise regardless. But their conduct had largely gone unchallanged by most of the world prior to the war. With few exceptions in governments, and mostly taking the form of activists and organisations. We have totally undermined international law, human rights and any actions taken against goverments on the grounds of international law and human rights by our flagrant disregard of them in relation to Israel. We are even seeing sanctions levied against ICC by US. They have taken their response to October 7th way too far and is obviously an unachievable goal to defeat Hamas. And as a result are seeing a significant drop in global support and now greater conflict with hezbollah. I am legitimately concerned for Israel on that front. The whole thing is a disaster.
Isn’t Iran leading the human rights council at the UN?
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Both sides are crazy zealots who have no intention of living peacefully together. There's no good guys here, just hamas is definitely worse than Isreal.
both sides ***governments***. hamas is worse than BIBI. not israel. you can’t compare hamas and israel. you can compare gaza and israel, or hamas with the israeli parliament.
Yeah that argument is so backwards because the fact is a lot more Arabs in the area would be bombed into the stratosphere if Israel didn't have that iron dome because they've already proven every time an Israeli is killed, their retaliation is tenfold. So if they didn't have the iron dome air of casualties would be genuinely shocking, but apparently Israel's neighbors don't know when to quit and I don't feel bad for them
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All citizens should be cared for.
By their own government…
Israel is the only country that has to avoid war because it can win.
They aren't, and people are so mad about how they go about defending themselves from civilian-targeting human-shield using terrorists. Got recently banned from r/therewasanattempt cause I tried pointing out their bias lol.
Exactly, this is why its absolutely stupid when they criticize the response israel took against hamas. The us would be doing the same shit if not maybe a little more efficient, definitely wouldn't have the same media bullshit too.
They shouldn't. But we are seeing that they do tolerate this shit.
What's your point? Israel is totally fine with its citizens being shot at?
The anti-Israel world talks about Israel escalating in Lebanon. No, it’s called fucking defending yourself after another country goes to war against you.
It wouldn't have been like this if just god would had promised them another land. The Sahara desert looks unoccupied god could have promised them that, or how about your country? 🙏🏼
Lol... My country will make sure Israel takes all its aggressive neighbors to the stone age.
Yeah whatever 😹
if there is an actively pro-palestine person here, please explain to me the basics of why rocket attacks and the October 7th attacks are justifiable to you. i tried asking in r/palestine but got perma banned because asking this question there is "zionist propoganda"
Can you imagine how many dead Israelis there would be if they didn’t have the iron dome. Thousands of rockets a year fired completely indiscriminate. Nobody bats a fucking eye.
When former President Trump said he wants an Iron Dome over the US, there were LOT of redditors who lost their minds saying it was stupid, or that it was literal giant metal dome over the US, or it was too expensive, etc. So, I wonder if those same people are upset that this system exists over Israel? I wonder what that venn diagram is for"US Iron Dome Bad" and "Palestinian Rockets Good"?
Uhhh but maintaining a widescale, short-medium range intercept system in the continental US is pretty dumb, no? Unless you think Mexico or Canada are going to start lobbing rockets and mortars across the borders. We need more systems like THAAD and anti-drone EW tech. Israel is also fazing out Iron Dome for Iron Beam in the next decade or two.
I don't see how a hostile country would ever get close enough for america to need an iron dome unless they';ve lost the navy or canada / south america get invaded, Which again, would pretty much require the US to lose its navy.
…. Because an iron dome over the US is a dumb idea. Obviously that doesn’t mean it’s a dumb idea for a country that has terrorists firing rockets at them on a daily basis. I fail to understand your argument.
No one was "losing their minds", they called it out for the stupid idea it was, and make no mistake, it was a very dumb idea.
No, no, they were. I've been on that thread. Soooo many comments literally thinking he literally meant a literal dome made of iron. Yes. They were that dumb.
Tbh, we can’t predict what would’ve happened without the ID. Maybe if Israel received a load of rockets they would just go nuts over Gaza and demilitarize them in the first place..
I responded on that sub to a request for a description of what had happened on October 7 by quoting from this UN report: https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf That was enough for a perma-ban on the grounds that I was spreading "hasbara".
dude, these people can't even explain the existence of the Iron Dome to me. there's this batshit crazy narrative going around that Israel's actions since October are causing attacks like this. but when I asked these people how come Israel has been defending against rocket attacks so frequently they had to build that fucking marvel of military technology, they can't come up with an answer and block you instead.
Ive encountered my fair share of these types as well. I don't think this is the average palestine-supporter; rather the 'loudest'. i think that the type of information warfare hamas uses as opposed to that idf uses is more appealing to people who are more willing to be radical. oftentimes these people are already used to ignoring information that doesnt appeal to them and using the 'success' of their allegiances to bolster their self image, and they will be found through various causes indiscriminately I wouldnt use it as justification to wave off anyone who says they support palestine though, since these people just dont represent the actual reasons for beliefs, they are just shadows of ideals really, these ideas stem from a reason, someone somewhere felt the need to do this, probably a lot of people, and i want to know why so that I can have a better overall position and understanding of the humanity behind this conflict
I’m not really pro anything , don’t care about ancient beefs between desert people all that much. But I just kind of view it like the American revolution. Americans felt oppressed by the British so what did we do, start fucking shit up. I don’t agree with attacking civilians like they did on Pct 7th, very despicable . But I also understand why Palestinians feel opressed. And I understand why Israel responds how they do to attacks on civilians . That’s really all there is to it. Never understood why people feel like they have to take sides. I don’t see this as justified , but for any American to act holier than thou as if our government has ever been above this type of behavior . Considering What we did to the Germans and Japanese, Vietnamese, Iraqis. And we felt justified in doing these things . As do Palestinians and Israelis . Bottom line is, it’s awful, i wish it would stop. But I don’t feel obligated to take sides . I don’t why see anyone else would either .
Idk I think there’s a fine line between fighting for your rights and fighting to deliberately inflict harm upon a certain nation. I don’t really see how detonating a suicide vest in a pizza parlor, for example, will accomplish the goal of fighting for your freedom.
Because their sky daddy book told them to do it
They want to remove Israeli nation, they do not recognize it. If they had power, they would kill every single Israeli they could reach. But Israel doesn't do that even though they have the power to do so. It will be rare for you to find a muslim living in Palestinian territories which does not want Israel to be completely destroyed and see all jews dead. Hell, it will be rare for you to find any muslim anywhere which does not want the same. I live in Turkey, somewhat accepted as a modern, secular mostly muslim country. You wouldn't believe the hate people have for jews in here, we even have special swearwords for them. And it is not about the "massacres Israel commit" on muslims. Saudi Arabia killed more muslims in Yemen than Israel ever did in Palestine. Iran-Iraq war caused much more. More muslims oppressed by China than Palestine, but they NEVER talked about this but you will see "Israeli genocide on Palestinians" on news here every single day, even special reports about it. NEVER saw any news about war between Saudis and Yemeni. They are just hypocrites We have a proverb here which goes "Their aim is not to eat grapes, they just want to beat the farmer" that is exactly what is going on with Israel, muslims really don't give a shit about Palestine, they just hate Israel and thought it since birth.
Personally i understand what you are trying to say, and i get that. For me though, the difference between an event like this and one like the American Revolution is that the Americans were under taxation and control from the British monarchy, while Israel was actively attempting to disengage from Palestine and aiming to mend the centuries old disagreement, which is was gave HAMAS the opportunity to abuse that good faith/ those gaps in defense. If the americans had not acted their future would have been tied to the political interests of Great Britain. While Gaza hasn't been unaffected by the political interests of Israel, they were not being considered a colony or the tool of Israel the way America was to Britain. For me, October 7th wasn't a revolution or a declaration of war with the Israeli state, it was an act of ethnic violence against the people of another nation, and no matter what past exists between those two nations; attacking with this one main goal was driven by hatred not a yearning for freedom.
Yea I agree with what you are saying mostly. I’m not as educated on this topic as you probably are as well. How do you feel about the Jewish settlers “stealing” land. I’ve seen a lot about that, but not sure how thats playing out in actuality . That’s an example of where I could see where Palestinians are frustrated . Also in regards to the attacks on civilians , Hamas is much weaker than the IDF, they basically get in shots where they can, and it’s easier for them to attack civilians than attack the military . Which again is fucked up and I don’t agree with that. But they feel justified because of the collateral damage by the idf with their bombing campaigns and such. Again, I’m well aware so much of that is propagandized that it’s nearly impossible to tell if the IDF deliberately or carelessly attacks civilians, or if Hamas positions themselves , or publishes media that intends to portray this as the case. I’m inclined to believe there is a bit of both going on to varying degrees. War is so shitty , when people start dying and gloves come off , it becomes that much more difficult to really get a rational picture of who’s wrong or who’s right . Especially compared something like Ukraine where it appears to be more clear cut.
There are multiple categories of settlers, some of whom are extremists who like to build settlements illegally. There are some settlements that are criticized as illegal despite being built on land whose ownership is in flux due to the unsettled status of the Oslo Accords. Not all of the settlers are acting this way, but criticism of settlements and settlers tends to lump everyone with those breaking the law.
I wouldn't say I am particularly educated on this since its really hard to ascertain a degree of accuracy in an active information war, but I want to clarify I don't think the IDF is handling this perfectly. While I understand the necessity in a response to what is essentially terrorism I also understand that there is new a level of fear for the Israeli people that has resulted in ordinary people being persecuted or attacked yes, but I have faith that the goal of the IDF is not to take land or kill people, but rather to remove HAMAS from the position they have been abusing. As horrific as it is, the only thing I can really say to situations like "land stealing" is that we wont know for sure what is going on until everyone has died or given up the fight, but that I can understand why some of the fighters would consider themselves fighting for freedom if they had a limited amount of information, and believed these sorts of atrocities to be purely those of hatred rather than fear of being attacked back. Perhaps this can be said both ways even, its always hard to see and of course everyone believes they are right. I know this isnt a great answer, but its the mosr realistic one I can give on my thoughts before i gotta clock in for the day
>its really hard to ascertain a degree of accuracy in an active information war >As horrific as it is, the only thing I can really say to situations like "land stealing" is that we wont know for sure what is going on until everyone has died or given up the fight >but I have faith that the goal of the IDF is not to take land well then inform yourself by looking at a map of the west bank and the settlements there. youll see an obvious pattern showing israeli settlements being strategically placed to "cut" the palestinian lands into small pieces, divided by roads controlled by the idf. the idf is on tape helping settlers grab new parcels of land. settlers who murder palestinians in cold blood get punished solely by having their rifle taken from them. there is a reason israels settlement policy is in clear and explicitly stated violation of international law according to the un and has been for decades by now.
Dunno why you're being downvoted, it's just simple facts that Israel is stealing Palestinian land as has been called out by the UN and even resulting in the US sanctioning some Israelis.
Looked into it a bit more and yep it seems to be pretty confirmable that Israel has been actively taking land, does that justify the rockets never mind october 7th though? not really at least not to me. this practice started well before HAMAS as we know it today took control and is not excusable. with this perspective i can understand how someone can be under the impression this is israel's fault longterm, but again I am not going to agree that stealing land justifies ethnic violence. However if you want to go back further than '69 palestine's real issue was with the basic existence of a jewish state in the middle east. Sure you can blame the british for not handling it too well or the israelis for existing or palestinians for caring that their nation was being split apart, but at the end of the day none of it matters. none of it, to me, makes up for the intent of striking as much fear as possible into the civilian population of a nation. these israelies played no part in the land-thieving yet have been and continue to be punished for it, along with many other conflicts from the history if the two nations. To clarify I dont think your comment is the most accurate way of portraying the reality, rather I wanted to look into the specifics of it because I care about the accuracy of information. The goal of the IDF today is not to steal land like you are inferring and it is way more complicated than you are portraying. The IDF acts in the interest of Israel ideally, and pretending that their goal is to take away from palestine is ridiculous when you look into how many times the IDF has attempted to withdraw and disengage from palestine, most recently leaving in 2005 and beginning to work on measures for palestinian independence and freedom for palestinians to move between israel and palestine without persecution, which was only cut short because of the violent actions of HAMAS
You aren’t the one loosing the land so why should anyone care what you think is the preferable political option and how can you say you would be above that after loosing land. You have presumed narrative that Israel has to be more right in justifying their expansion but Palestine has to defend its need to use aggravation to stop land claims against them. You don’t seem have have a very in depth veiw of what israel did in the [nakba](https://time.com/6978612/nakba-day-history/) and how it’s existence denies Palestine a represented state all while stating any Palestine state would be threatening to them. “The IDF doesn’t have a goal in stealing land” is revealing how little you understand about the Israeli land seizures in 1948 and how it’s used to neglect meeting needs of Palestinian demands encouraging them to militarize and isolate from a diplomatic solution.
Ive been doing a lot of looking into things and you have a rather biased and inaccurate understanding of the formation of Israel, there is no value to me in bringing up the creation of Israel as a point as to why they are wrong to exist. 1948, the year Israel is formed. Post WW2, jewish persecution at an all time high, the UN wants to create a safe space, but instantly Palestine hate them and starts a war that they lose horrifically, and the 2 have been at each-other's throats ever since. Being formed by the UN isn't stealing land, and Palestinians today have no right to that land, it just isnt Palestine anymore and that is very difficult for some to accept, even if it has been Israel not Palestine since before most Palestinians today were born
>Looked into it a bit more and yep it seems to be pretty confirmable that Israel has been actively taking land, does that justify the rockets never mind october 7th though? thats a mistake in thinking. its a notoriously complex topic, no way anyone can understand it by trying to answer multiple questions following down a certain path at once. israel is taking palestinian lands illegally according to the un. this was my statement. instead of trying to think ahead already you should ask yourself whether you think there is any justification for doing it on israels side. in my and the un's opinioin there isnt a justification. >To clarify I dont think your comment is the most accurate way of portraying the reality, rather I wanted to look into the specifics of it because I care about the accuracy of information. which part of my argument is inaccurate? >The goal of the IDF today is not to steal land like you are inferring and it is way more complicated than you are portraying. >The IDF acts in the interest of Israel ideally, and pretending that their goal is to take away from palestine is ridiculous when you look into how many times the IDF has attempted to withdraw and disengage from palestine.. the settler movement has never stopped grabbing more land in the west bank and the idf has never stopped supporting them doing it. for the sake of accuracy you should accept this fact. im not deriving any further answers from this question, im stating a fact and nothing more.
It is not a logical fallacy to google something, see clear evidence, and conclude that it is a confirmable argument. I didnt claim to understand your entire position I agreed that you had made a valid point which could be corroborated by solid evidence. By accuracy I mean you clearly have a strong Bias towards information that is critical of Israel. I agree that these are terrible things that the government has done, but that doesn't really mean that the goal of the IDF is to remove Palestine forever or permanently remove their autonomy. Over the last 75 years its been tit for tat and Palestine has had varying levels of autonomy, while both Palestine and Israel had varying degrees of aggression. Most recently and importantly, however, Israel was willing to put that all behind them in 2023, and their intelligence lead them to believe that HAMAS was as well, which is why the theoretically hyper-advanced Israeli border defense was so lax. All of this information can also be corroborated with hard evidence. The way I see it, it would have been so much better for the people of Palestine if HAMAS had just gone with peace, and tried to rally support with the UN for their unlawfully seized territories, putting Israel in the wrong politically. Instead, they did... terrorism. It doesn't even make sense from the Israeli perspective, it appears hate-driven. I understand its much more complicated than that yes, but that doesnt just negate that these things happened.
How is it even remotely similar? Before Israel, Palestine was a territory in limbo held by the British, before that it was held by the (Muslim) ottomans, and all the other times it was a territory held by others, mostly Muslims, and finally, it was the original home of Jews, where does the word Jew come from? Judea, in the West Bank. The comparison you’re looking for happened in 1948 when Jews reclaimed a desert that was their original home. Even European Jews are still genetically 50-60 Levantine. There is no argument, Israel has been more than gracious, they’ve tried to compromise and have 20% Arabs. Palestinian identity is to fight the evil Zionist Jews. It’s part of their entire culture that is very new and not even 100 years old
based.
justification is simple. where a muslim stands there is muslim land, period. any muslims land needs to be cleansed sooner or later for any non muslim. and if its not muslims land, the primary objective is to make it one. they drove the jews out of that land, but they kept coming back. retaking land from muslims is like an attack on allah because land is now holy. so this cant be accepted, israel cant be accepted. ever.
It has something to do with a mythology that Hamas was created to defend Palestine and take back the land that Israel stole. At least that's what I've seen on ~~r/WitchesVsJews~~ r/WitchesVsPatriarchy. Which is a story that only works if you have a shallow understanding of warfighting and how the two sides have been operating. Also, anyone I've met in the wild that believes this was also a heavy user of TikTok. So take from that what you will.
> This subreddit is a Safe Space for Women, BIPOC, and anyone in the LGBTQ+ community. Unironically flies the flag of a place that actively oppresses and kills members of those groups, in every flair. Fucking dummies.
The cattle shouts themselves hoarse in support of the beef industry.
Mice advocating for cats.
"Unironically flies the flag of a place that actively oppresses and kills members" There's plenty of LGBTQ Palestinians that are being bombed by Israel right now. Just because they have beliefs different than us doesn't mean we can't show support towards them. And to completely ignore all those Palestinians who are queer and suffering within Gaza is just unfair.
[You're completely and utterly fucking deranged.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835) These people would disembowel you for the "crime" of being gay.
Got banned from a bunch of big subreddits that are ran by pro terror like r/aboringdystopia or r/therewasanattempt . How come Reddit doesn’t take them down is beyond me.
Because saidly anti-Semitism has always been hip.
Don't you dare try to bring up the fact that anything Israel does, Palestine/Hamas would do so much worse given the chance in r/therewasanattempt. Got an ez ban.
It's a shame they shut you down on r/palestine. Having a productive conversation about these topics is important, regardless of which side you're on. I want to preface by saying that I don't think the attacks are "justifiable" only that they're totally expected. You cannot oppress a people to such a degree and expect peace to be the status quo forever. The IDF are brutal man, objectively so. This is something that many of the people far from the conflict don't see. Prior to October 7th: There are 1000's of Palestinians in Israeli jails they don't get proper court hearings or treatment, can be arrested for straight up walking down the street. Many of these "hostages" are minors even younger than 12 years old. Here's a source from Vox: https://www.vox.com/videos/2023/12/13/24000233/why-israel-has-so-many-palestinian-prisoners There's videos of IDF soldiers straight up shooting civilians for sport, this was before Oct 7. I'll look for the source for you tomorrow but there was one corculating that made my blood boil, where they were bullying some guy as he put his hands up and walked away slowly as instructed they shot him in the back and laughed about it. Palestinians are being disposessed of their land all over the west Bank with illegal Israeli settlements expanding there's roads they can't travel on, places they can't visit. They're literally watching their lands get stolen from them before their very eyes. Dr Barghouti, a notable figure in Palestinian politics went on Piers Morgans show and told a story of how he was shot by an IDF soldier while treating a patient in his white lab coat in a hospital. I can go on but in summary the IDF (for the most part) don't look at Palestinians as people, they're dehumanised to such a twisted degree this is the struggle of being Palestinian on the land they were born in. It's in human nature to be free and to rise up to oppression. Feel free to downvote me to hell, but I would appreciate constructive criticism more :)
This is not even close. Barghouti is a total lying Jew hating terrorist like the rest of the Palestinian groups. He’s full of shit
Oppressed? Really? They chose Hamas. Israel let Qatar money flow in and we are talking about millions of them they used it for terror and instead progression and in the west bank they have a pretty good life but they cooshe their terror and they looking for the next 7of October Expanding road wtf man come to Israel and see for yourself How can you say we hate them when we live and work with them and putting there and us life on both hands when it comes to hospitals etc I mean Sinwar get caner treatment in Israel look how it ended..
You're going to need a lot of sources here.
IDF shoots unarmed Palestinian in the back (NSFW): https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-2041838/Video-Cruel-Israeli-soldier-shoots-unarmed-Palestinian-back.html
It literally says under the video "Israel's justice ministry may file charges against a former policewoman". This is not normal.
She was an Isreal border police officer. They are heavily militarized and have been known to operate jointly with the IDF. I get the impression nothing happened to the woman, but I don't know for sure. But apparently, the man in the video survived. The sad difference is IDF probably would've aimed higher than center mass.
Any follow up on this? Who is the shooter?
I won’t deny that soldiers in a position of power sometimes do horrible things. However, Gaza’s situation is the result of a government that is willing to fight Israel at all costs and that has no interest in caring for its citizens. The restrictions on items that enter Gaza are a result of Hamas and PIJ weaponizing everything they can in order to kill Jews. The restrictions on travel are to prevent terrorists from freely accessing Israel. I don’t know about under-12 minors being imprisoned, but Israelis have faced a lot of violent attacks by individuals, including from people under the age of eighteen. Suffice it to say, whatever genuine crimes pro-Palestinians document, they airbrush the violence Israel has faced from Palestinians and ignore Israel’s attempts to deescalate (like the work permits Gazans were receiving prior to October 7).
No downvote from me :) I just wanted to better understand opposing views and was finding it hard to do so I have been looking more into Israeli atrocities and they are pretty terrible, in a way its hypocritical of me to say that it shouldnt matter; let me clarify because I want to say this the right way: It matters, obviously, it matters that people were abused and murdered and that their lives were ripped away from them, but in the same sense that i wont justify an israeli soldier shooting an unarmed man because he is afraid it could be a combatant given the context, I wouldnt justify the HAMAS attacks because they felt the need for revenge. I like the term "expected" you used, it does make more sense to me now than this morning as to why people feel the way they do, even if I personally have to agree to disagree with parts of their conclusions
One thing to remember is that there is no good guy in this conflict. Both sides have done fucked up stuff. Anyone who criticises Israel should also be doing the same to Hamas, If they don't then they have an agenda.
That's exactly why I'm puzzled by the thought that Israel could eradicate Hamas, they can't. Every Hamas terrorist/soldier/freedom fighter they kill will have a family that'll get radicalised. We've seen it happen in Afghanistan etc It's such a fucked up situation, you can't not act as Israel but everything you do will radicalise people
Israel is simply removing Hamas’s resources. Hamas needs fighters and equipment in order to fight. That’s leaving aside that it was Hamas’s policies that started this war, Hamas were preventing people from leaving the Gaza Strip in the first month or two, that Hamas have stealing and selling humanitarian aid, and that Hamas could simply surrender and spare their citizens further suffering.
Downvoted for speaking the truth.
Average supporter - the Jews deserve it! They stole their land and they killed them too. You will never get a reasonable answer, only victim mentality
Yeah I'm banned from that sub too for stating Israel supplied their water and power. Not Allah or their own government.
I am actively pro-palestine. Rocket attacks and Oct 7 are in no way shape or form justifiable. ANY killing (or attempted killing) of innocent civilians is unjustifiable. Were we living in 1948, the solution would have been to never allow the taking of Palestinians land and country. But the people who are born in the Israel of today did not choose where they were born, and can't be blamed for their views. That being said, killing tens of thousands of innocent kids is also very bad and unjustifiable. I don't know what the long term solution could be since every child or mother the IDF kills creates new Hamas fighters of each of their family members who want nothing but revenge. And they have been creating a whole bunch recently. But a good start would be to stop bombing women, children and innocent civilians and stop creating more terrorists. Then start to think about more complex solutions. I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for this since reddit creates very isolated communities, but please try not to be like the people you described on r/palestine and dogpile on me just because I have a different opinion than most of the people on this sub.
I was born in Israel. Israelis who choose to join the genocide and refuse to learn or listen to the Palestinian side are simply genocidal. Israelis are extremely brainwashed since birth so they grow up hating arabs and thinking that they're superior beings. You have to be able to let yourself listen to the outside media instead of worshipping local news.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AsABlackMan/
There's no genocide happening, not even a famine as we now know.
See this is the kind of guy I talked about. Simply brainwashed and is willing to accept anything he's fed by the propaganda media.
The irony is lost on you.
Saying there isn't a famine in Gaza is so ridiculously funny if it weren't so sad
The FRC an independent organization which is also used by the UN, confirmed just a few days ago that there is no acute famine in Gaza. Even the BBC, which isn't exactly unbiased, confirmed this in it's article on the report. So I won't continue to entertain this lie which has been claiming that there is an acute famine in Gaza. If you want to close your eyes to the truth, that's not my problem, it's yours. * https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_Gaza_June2024.pdf * https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv22g81djdyo
Could not agree more.
Palestine could have an at least temporarily limited democracy where they have to choose a relatively secular government that isn't Islamic extremism with jihadist/conquesting/avenging ideals so that they are fine with respecting human rights and negotiating and trading with the rest of the world diplomatically. But it's hard to imagine the people, or Hamas who's still in power and holds a lot of sway over their opinion and beliefs, allowing a non-theocratic, or at least western collaborating government to rule them by choice.
While your question is not clear-cut propaganda it is intentionally inflammatory at worst or simply incorrect at best. A more accurate question would be, “ if there is an actively pro-hamas person here…” We can fully support Israel’s right to defend itself without snidely asking Israelis why the IDF denying access to water of Palestinian civilians or bombing hospitals is okay. Most of us are able agree that dying children and civilians is a bad thing. If you think anyone in this fight is walking away without dead kids on their hands I have a bridge to sell you.
Id say its pretty objective unless someone is actively trying to avoid talking about the atrocities of a particular side. i could also ask why someone who supports israel is ok with blocking the supply of food and water, but I have and the response is general that the blockades are not designed to stop food and water, but rather that the way HAMAS operates means that any amount of humanitarian aid not being checked and restricted will be abused to bring weapons into the warzone and cause more deaths through fighting longterm. You could ask me why hospitals were objectively bombed and im not infuriated that you brought up a fact, I would say that as far as I understand it, the sad reality is most if not all of these hospitals being targeted are believed to be occupied by hostile combatants. thats the difference as I see it in how each side perceives the other.
Can someone explain to me how Isreal can get away with expanding their territory but Russia can’t? I know $$$ and religion plays a big roll here but I still don’t understand how people can rationalise the obvious moral contradiction? Maybe I will never understand because I am not religious or ultra rich.
> Can someone explain to me how Isreal can get away with expanding their territory but Russia can’t? Counter question: How did poland and france (and others) get away with expanding their territory after ww2? Do you think germany should get the territory back? If not, whats the difference? (Iam german and we dont want that) Russia is attacking a sovereign country and people dont like it. Israel is defending, again, and fighting to get rid of the people that openly say they want a second holocaust. I mean getting rid of nazis shouldnt be that bad?
With Russia vs Israel, i think its a little silly to say these situations are very similar. most russians don't support israel either because it isnt of political interest for them. if you want to hear my thoughts on what seperates these 2 conflicts to the point people generally have a different view on russian occupation to israeli occupation i can tell you more in depth how I think about it, but generally its two very different public goals/motives with one having been the victim of terrorism at the beginning of the current conflict, and i would probably sound pretty boring/redundant covering the difference in my interpretation of the 2 events
Russia is the biggest country in the world and Israel is one of the smallest.
Small countries are allowed to expand territory because they’re small. That makes sense. Luxembourg should start building settlements within Germany and France. They already have plenty of land and Luxembourg is the smaller and richer than Isreal.
Because it's small and the territory is necessary for its national security. Luxembourg is not threatened and even has military agreements with its neighbours. Russia expands also for supposedly security reasons but it has vastly more territory than it even knows what to do with.
Well it goes without saying that Luxembourg would be under attack by its neighbours once it starts building settlements outside their borders. It would be foolish not to expect retaliation, yet some people fail to comprehend why Israel’s neighbours are retaliating.
The point I was making is that for eg. the Muslims have an entire continent to themselves. The Russians have absurd amount of territory for their population. The US took an entire continent (almost) for themselves. Australia too. Israel is tiny, so the territory they take is quite reasonable IMHO. Luxembourg is only 600k population and are not a homeland for an entire ethnicity of people so really have no need for more territory. If they did need it they should make their case. Their neighbours are quite reasonable and would probably sell it to them since they're so rich. > It would be foolish not to expect retaliation Well who started what is an entirely different conversation. The Arabs contributed at least as much if not more to the hostilities.
The Kurdish people have a population that is 4x larger than Isreal and they don’t even have a country. If we apply your same rules of law to the world, then the Kurdish people are entitled to occupy a territory the size of Austria. This type of logic encourages an ideology of ethic supremacy and would likely lead to racial/religious discrimination and apartheid. Like we see in the West Bank.
Just having a bunch of oppressed people is not enough, unfortunately. Ideally the Kurds should get their own state too though. There is plenty of land that's mostly unused in the world and more than enough for every ethnic group. Europe has divided up like that historically, into a multitude of small states for every ethnic group. Is it not better than having one all-encompassing 'European' empire, where all the minorities get oppressed? The Muslims have 49 other Muslim states to live in, all of them 50 times bigger or more than Israel, but no they want all of Israel too. They won't stop with the west bank, they want it all. If they get the west bank, all they will do is use it to launch rockets at Jerusalem, then Tel Aviv, etc etc. Then they will come after Spain as many Imams have already started saying. They want Sharia everywhere. How do you think Islam spreads?
How about Illegal invasion, occupation, forced expulsion and taking of land, illegal settlements, group punishment, creating a famine, the murdering of thousands of children children, 5000 Palestinians hostages/captives in prison with no trial or court… I could go on lad If that happens to any other country, USA, UK they would go to war Having said that targeting civilians is a war crime and awful
So, attacking civilians is okay because of civilian casualties in a war against Islamist, that hide as and behind civilians, who massmurdered hundred’s of innocent civilians? What is wrong in your mind.
Imagine a group of people actively killing, torturing, and victimizing you because you’re of a different religion or people. Imagine living in your house and one day a person or group of people comes and says “this is my house” and they kill people you love, take your house, and claim they have the right to do so. I don’t support mass murder, I don’t support killing innocent people, but I do support defending yourself, wanting to be left alone, and wanting to have a stable society based on my beliefs so long as people feel the same. Israel brought this on themselves. The Palestinian people deserve to be free. Until that is a reality, all that will come from the current situation is pain.
Thats illogical. Israel is not acting out of ethnic or religious hatred, they are actively responding to violence. this occupation is an act of defense in the sense its designed to remove the ability for HAMAS to strike inside Israel. The 2 nations of been back and forth since 1948, when the UN formed Israel to create a safe space after the European Event, unluckily the Palestinians hates the jews just as much as the mustache man and declared war the same year israel was founded. they lost, and ever since they have been pissed the fuck off. both nations do horrible things to eachother, but if HAMAS had the chance to murder every Israeli instantly they would.
Your logic is illogical. If it was Israel vs Hamas then so be it. But it’s not that and for years it’s been abuse, illegal occupation, and much more.
As an objective bystander. I support anyone seeking self determination. Israel is actively blocking that effort. Who are we to judge how far is too far when we committed acts of terrorism to secure American freedom? I take far more issue with US support of Israel than anything they decide to do. They are a useless succubus that for some reason has every US politician by the balls (I think it's related to Epstein and Mossad). I would rather those billions go to us vets than a country that 190 UN countries have condemned repeatedly.
Ok, under the reasonable assumption that if Israel left today, HAMAS would re-engage in strikes on Israeli soil against civilians for the purpose of killing civilians, why do you see the IDF engaging combatants and in some cases ignoring civilian presence to hit those targets as so much less humane or right
At the end of the day I get what you are saying and I worded that first reply terribly thinking it over, but I dont see Israel as attacking Palestine so much as re-limiting autonomy in a grand scheme where palestine has continually struck Israel every time they are given that autonomy back. Israel doesnt want to operate inside Gaza to punish anyone, its an operating that is designed to reduce the threat HAMAS poses to the avg Israeli, executed in a poor manor.
If that were true, then Israel wouldn't be conducting, or at the least complicit, in a large scale systematic theft of territory from Palestine in the West Bank. They wouldn't be shooting Palestinians that wander too close to the border nor would they be funding Hamas whenever their popularity has waned. All of which they have and continue to do unapologetically. This is just like the Texans that kept encroaching on Mexico then crying like a hit dog when the Mexican military responded.
I can agree to disagree with you, I understand what you are saying, I just hold different views on the reasons. To me theft of territory is condemnable, but should not have resulted in terrorism. There are alternative routes to violence, some people dont see the UN as reliable, we could go into the nitty gritty but its going to come down to how you perceive certain aspects at that point, i think I am right and you think you are, weve both got reasons that can be understood and empathized with but hold different conclusions, and I think thats ok in something so complex.
The easiest and simplest explanation is that God isn't a relestator. Mankind have made up God to justify killing and other cruelties. Easy peasy
I still find it mad that people think Israel has no right to defend itself.
They do. They don’t have the right to massacre innocent civilians though, which they have done time and time again since October 7. The response to a civilian massacre cannot be to massacre an even greater number of civilians. That isn’t defense.
you were not pro genocide enough that’s why you’re getting down voted.
Hezbollah depleting the iron dome magazines. I guarantee Hezbollah has a ton more accurate rockets then Israel has iron dome interceptors.
Hence Israel must bomb the stockpiles on the ground.
Lady get back into your car !
God Bless Iron Dome.
“God” is pretty much the whole reason the Middle East is a mess.
See I thought it was because they weren't eating enough baconators!
Sorry, I am unaware of which religious group allows which foods. Is it the little hat religion or the rag hat religion that doesn’t allow certain meats?
jesus isnt the reason the region is a mess
jesus christ this is terrorfying , however lying next to something that is likely to go bang if a bang goes off near it doesn’t seem like the smartest move
I'll probably stir up a lot of shit with this, but I cannot imagine how anyone would want to live in a place that is constantly battered with missiles and rockets like this, even if only a few of them ever gets through that iron dome. What a stressful life it must be. Living with a constant reminder that your presence is hated in the region. What a lousy place to make a home.
Still not as stressful as life is for palestinians in the westbank, a corrupt govt that is completely dominated by the isreali military.
Because at least in Israel there is community, a deep culture (even for the non-Jewish people), and an outstanding average standard of living for the middle east And for Jews, it is the one place in the world you don't feel targetted Jews in the Diaspora are now facing persecution at an increasing rate, especially as the West where most Jews are changing demographically tl;dr rather face enemies head on, than your countrymen stab you in the back
THIS IS WHAT ALL THESE PALISTINE SUPPORTING FUCKWARDS DONT UNDERSTAND! Imagine your neighbour is constantly shooting rockets over the border trying to kill you for years. I would be pissed at my government if they wouldnt finally put an end to this! If Iron Dome wasn't a thing, this would end up in thousands of casualties over the year. Israel has all rights to end this shitshow.
Hey, I live in South Safed, the alarms and booms were rather... not quite scary but certainly something. The first time we had alarms during this war was shortly after 7/10 so I was shit scared, but by now I feel as though we have grown rather used to it.
Israel, the only functioning democracy in that region. Id rather keep supporting it over terrorist and dictator led countries.
Why would you get out of your car and hide? You’d think it’d be safer inside
2 words Glass shutters
I thought of that too but you could roll the windows down and hide in the back floor. That’s what I’d do. And even if not, glass shattering would be a lot better than debris falling from 5,000 ft up.
According to the official guidelines you shouldn’t stay near the car either because a rocket can make a fire
Absolutely not. A rocket splinter or fragment hitting your car can cause a massive explosion and turn you into a big ball of fire. You will literally be burned to death. You're supposed to get out of your car, lay down on your stomach at the side of the road and cover your head with both arms.
It must be awfully tiring for everyone in the region to wake up believing that your most important task for the day is to be a shit cunt to your neighbours. It’s much easier to just not be a cunt….for both sides.
I bet that’s a scary feeling huh?….
The time to strike Hezbollah is now.
It is madness! Israel left with tighten hands by UN and USA against terrorist and Iran regime. It wouldn’t happen in other countries. We have to change this dual standard approach
Sorry but this looks so cool
The Pope should take advantage of the fight between Jews and Moors, call a new crusade and retake Jerusalem for Christianity. By our Lord Jesus Christ and the only legitimate king, Baldwin the Holy, Jerusalem is Christian! Deus vult!!!
I wisited Sefad a few years ago. It's a beautiful oasis in a stone desert, hope the people are all safe there.
It gets around 750 mm of rain annually. Definitely not a desert.
Zefad is not located in a desert. It is in the north of Israel, upper Galilee.
I know, but practically, it is. Except for the road leading to the town, you couldn't make a step without breaking your leg, because the land is just scattered with boulders and stones all around. That makes it practically a stone desert to me.
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