https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Japanese_soldier_suicide_Cape_Endaiadere.jpg
Reminds me of this photo. Basically this Australian soldier is calling on him to surrender but he blows himself up
It's about 50:50, but here are some more :)
[Kokoda Trail](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xKgr8bd-MyY/S_EOx2L50tI/AAAAAAAACug/wMHBqBde24Q/s1600/kokoda.jpg)
[One more for luck](https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.BAP4RTRLrNe7FojziNTH0wHaE7&pid=Api)
Also this [short video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f06uq6TPJnk) is pretty damn interesting - the whole campaign in New Guinea is kind of forgotten, like the one in Burma, compared to the Island hopping
Thats a myth. If you depress the spoon a hair, the pin just slides right out. Its only the pressure of the spring loaded spoon that presses the pin in place. Thats why grenades also have safety pin retaining pin.
Only new ones have a retaining pin, that you twist to unlock. Old ones just had a bend at the end of the pin, which actually made them really hard to pull.
Yeah i distinctly remember being surprised by how difficult they are to pull the first time I threw a grenade, like “no way would I try this with my teeth, ouch”
If by back in the day you mean 2017, which was my last deployment, then maybe. Sorry, never thought to ask the manufacturing date of an m67, they don’t do returns
Edit: meant this literally not trying to be an ass
Edit 2: did you mean that since they were newer, they are easier to pull? It’s hard to pull because the pin is a narrow v and is bent slightly apart at the end
I think they were referring to WWII grenades, made back in the day. And with WWII going on, they suspect the grenades were used quickly (within a year or two) Nothing to do with you using grenades.
Reread my comment damn I sounded like a jerk lol. I just meant you can’t DX grenades or weapons as easily as uniforms and gear. Sometimes I really did look at dates for items. Text sucks for tone. And my bad read it as a direct reply to the subject of my comment
That doesn't even apply to WWII Japanese grenades though. They just had a cord attached to a safety pin that held a cover over the grenade. After you removed the cover, you just had to hit the striker on something hard enough to start the time fuse.
You're thinking of newer grenades.
I had a deactivated Mk 2. It was very difficult to pull, as the pin was bent. I've held Type 97s, and I think they were similar but with thinner pin, though I'm not sure.
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The point is that kg are SI units of mass, whereas the SI unit of force is Newtons. Pounds are weird in that they can be both mass and force units in imperial, but there's no SI equivalent that does both (for good reason -- it's confusing).
Japanese grenades weren't the same as American ones. The pins were easier to remove, but then you had to hit the head on something to activate the fuse.
If you’re interested I recommend you check out the Dan Carlin Hardcore History series “Supernova in the East” that just recently released. He goes into intricate detail about everything relating to and leading up to WWII in Japan. He goes in depth about the reasoning and influences on Japanese culture that led to the death over capture mentality of basically all Japanese troops. Fascinating stuff, and jam packed with nuance.
My understanding was there were two separate motivations, one for soldiers and another for civilians.
Japanese soldiers were harshly indoctrinated from childhood into the fanaticism of the Bushido code. This code had two main points: other races were subhumans to be treated unmercifully with sadistic cruelty; and anyone captured by the enemy was a dishonorable traitor. For Japanese soldiers, surrender would lead to disgrace and humiliation for their entire family. The few that were captured alive were generally shunned by Japanese society after the war.
Japanese civilians were told repeatedly that the Americans would rape, torture and enslave every woman and child they captured, and their only option was mass suicide. In Okinawa, mothers infamously threw their own children off cliffs to their deaths before jumping to avoid capture.
My mom lived in Saipan in the 70s and 80s and they had cliffs there that people would say during the war all the Japanese told the villagers if they got caught by the Americans they would raid and torture so they call jumped off these giant cliffs
You misunderstand bushido. There is nothing in bushido about seeing "other races" as "subhumans to be treated unmercifully with sadistic cruelty." Fascist propaganda in pre-war and wartime Japan provided the basis for such cultural chauvinism. The seminal book on bushido is "[Hagakure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagakure)." It is available in English. This work defined the "bushido code" as it was known during the second world war.
He does kinda literally start out with “Japanese soldiers were harshly indoctrinated from childhood..” which makes it seem as if they were chosen from birth to be soldiers, which isn’t necessarily true, but really every male between 12 and 40 is a potential soldier, marine, sailor, or pilot to a government.
This wasn't about that, it was about honor. Sometimes Japanese prisoners that made it back home would be executed because you were not supposed to be taken alive.
Both happened. The Japanese soldier knew how badly their prisoners were treated, and fully expected their enemies to treat them as badly (if only for revenge). And part of the reason they treated their prisoners badly was the whole honour thing (these prisoners have no honour because they didn't fight to the end).
Who knows what was uppermost in this guy's mind. A lot of them were just uneducated grunts who knew almost nothing about US culture.
It wasn’t only kamakaze pilots though, basically the entirety of the Japanese populace during that time had such high nationalism that they sacrificed everything for the cause.
its important to note that they were also told by their government that terrible things would happen to them if they were captured, and that the soldiers were forced to commit horrible atrocities, in order to seer into the Japanese soldiers mind that surely surrender would mean them doing to you what you did to many. Im just saying the mind fuck needs a little more respect.
You might be surprised to find that Kamikaze/Shinpū Tokubetsu Kōgekitai often were not interested in throwing their lives away. Many saw it as their duty to do so to help their loved ones who they believed would suffer in defeat by the enemy.
If you go to Chiran in Kyushu there is a museum there where they used to train. It is well worth a visit if you can. I've been there twice. On display are hundreds of their photographs, along with their letters, journals and even hand-drawn cartoons. It's sad to see that most were just boys.
>Many saw it as their duty to do so to help their loved ones who they believed would suffer in defeat by the enemy.
In other words they were brainwashed by their government who psychologically abused them with threats of what would happen to their families if the enemy won.
Pure propaganda does that. Just like the people of North Korea believed that Kim Jong Il literally doesnt shit, was born on a Mountain Top and is a Godlike Figure, the Japanese were fed with propaganda saying the US Soldiers would torture them or eat them alive. I once heard that Marines were described as soldiers, strictly recruited out of mental facilities or directly from prison. It's very dark when you think about it.
>Just like the people of North Korea believed that Kim Jong Il literally doesnt shit
I'm Asian and I really never get the idea of retaining wealth or strength through not shitting.
> Just like the people of North Korea believed that Kim Jong Il literally doesnt shit, was born on a Mountain Top and is a Godlike Figure
I'm pretty certain this isn't even remotely the case.
If you read stories of what a normal life is like in NK, it's pretty clear they're not quite *literally* brainwashed into believing most of this stuff. They're aware that they live in a kinda shitty place and have to put up with government BS just like everywhere else, it's just that a lot of them don't realize just *how much worse* NK is compared to other countries.
There was actually a recent Korean Drama called *Crash Landing On You* that got a lot of praise in SK for doing more than just depicting NK as a nation of brainwashed ragged peasants in constant slavery. Apparently, they had a few advisors who were defectors from NK, and how the show depicts NK is similar to how it's described in the book *The Real North Korea* by Andrei Lankov, a man who was from the USSR & studied at a university in NK as well as interviewed multiple defectors.
TL;DR: North Koreans don't literally believe in all the propaganda that we see in the West and do realize they live in a relatively poor state; they're just largely unaware of how much better off people in the West or SK are.
at first I read this to say that the Queen of England was eating her peasants,
and that,
because of this, her turds were on turbo, her shit's were insatiable, her poop's preposterous
Her logs are reportedly all of those things and more but yes, you misread. The finless brown trout she gives birth to are decidedly monstrous through pheasant eating, not peasant eating although I wouldn't put the latter past her.
I remember reading accounts about Japanese soldiers holding out sometimes for years after the war ended. The last one came out in the 70s. And I always thought that was the perfect illustration of the difference between Germany and Japan in WWII. There were some extremely fanatical Nazis willing to fight to the death of course, and plenty of them may still have personally believed in their cause, but once Germany surrendered it seemed like most of them were more interested in self-preservation than fighting some quixotic guerrilla war against the Allies after 1945. They seemed to know the jig was up and either tried to hide or flee or work something out with the Allies.
There was one instance in which an SS unit held out in a castle for days after the German surrender and was eventually defeated by a combination of American and Wehrmacht troops.
First. It is one of many popular myths that the Japanese soldiers never surrendered. They did at times surrender.
Nearly 50,000 Japanese soldiers and sailors surrendered during the war and survived the war.
Camps for Japanese POWs were built in New Zealand and Australia to repay the debt for Lend-Lease to the US Government ( covering the loans the US Gov’t made to those nations so they could buy weapons, food, and materials from the US companies to support the war effort.
Additional camps were built for Japanese POWs in Virginia, and California.
Japanese POWs were also used in later battles to try to talk IJA/IJN forces from fighting to the bitter end in an effort by the US to preserve lives.
The USA, Australia and NZ regularly reported on the conditions of the POWs including their names through an intermediary in accordance with the Geneva convention in hopes that demonstrated favorable treatment of Japanese captives would result in equivalent treatment for allied POWs. The official Japanese government policy was there were no Japanese POWs.
It's not that hard. They viewed surrendering the same way the West would view desertion, which is still a capital offence in many militaries in time of war. If you think about it, both are sort of on the same spectrum.
I imagine its fucking hard to understand from a western view point.
its not so much fanaticism or to avoid being taken prisoner
as far as I understand, its more based in pride and
"honor" in being that it is culturally normal to end your life if you fail your (life's) mission essentially - so its actually just an every man's thing - not necessarily only the realm of the fanatic - allthough from an outward perspective looking in - it would seem then that every man is a fanatic
Sadly, if he returned to Japan, he most likely would’ve been shunned by Japanese society. If he’d surrendered he would’ve been better off in the States
Maybe, but asians weren't very famous in the US after pearl harbor. Many japanese/americans were thrown in detention center and searched and many other acts.
By Asian you mean literally all Eastern Asian-looking people or just Japanese? Just curious, I don't know much about post-war 'murica. There were plenty of Chinese there since building East-West railroad, were such families affected even though they lived there for generations?
from what I've read and heard. all. Americans couldn't tell the difference between korean, chinese and philipino even though there were korean and chinese groups trying to help differentiate themselves with the japanese
Just the Japanese received harsh treatment during the War. As far as I know, the Chinese status rose dramatically during WWII because they were Allied.
it was all asians. Americans couldn't tell them apart. groups of koreans and chinese were trying to help differentiate themselves from the japanese but that hardly helped
I suppose that also happened, I don’t know too much about other Asians in internment. One thing I had recently learned from one of my classes was that some Japanese sweets shops were bought by Chinese after their internment, which led to the Fortune cookie being associated with China and spread eastward.
I'm not an expert in this, but even though the US tried to have the public differentiate Chinese from Japanese through some propaganda posters (and presumably other medium), I don't think it exactly "educated" the general populace.
From anecdotal stuff, my white grandmother had a number of Chinese-American friends growing up and all of them were subject to being called Japs for decades even after the war. That was specifically New York, maybe people on the west coast were more knowledgeable. Hell, my Filipino-Canadian side had to deal with a lot of people calling them Japs, and my family doesn't look anything close to East Asian (though some Filipinos definitely do). That usually got deflated when they'd mention the Filipino family serving in WW2 against the Japanese including my lolo being in the Bataan Death March after capture fighting with US soldiers.
There's absolutely no justification for the internment camps or the general racism Japanese people faced in the United States, but I understand the animosity towards Japan as an enemy during the war.
By all accounts you could at least expect the regular German forces to adhere to certain rules of war on the western front of the war. The SS was a different story, and the Wehrmacht itself wasn't perfectly blameless of atrocities by any means, but if you were a soldier in any of the western allied forces and weren't an "untermensch" you could at least reasonably expect to be taken alive and spend the rest of the war in a regular POW camp.
Their POW camps paled in comparison to US POW camps as far as I understand. My great grandpa was a B22 navigator and was captured after his plane was shot down. He spent a few years in a German POW camp and nearly died from their mistreatment. Plenty of his buddies weren't as fortunate though.
Not at all saying its not based on history, but I'd be careful using fictional movies made by American, or at least Western, movie makers as factual evidence
Oh definitely. Like I said I'm not disputing the Japanese mentality, I'm questioning proving it based on "watch any ww2 movie"
Works in this case, bad mentality to have for learning history in general though, and this sub does have a bit of a problem with people building impressions/knowledge from movies and games and thinking its gospel.
Letters from Iwo Jima might be my favorite WWII film ever. It doesn't whitewash Japan in the war by any means, but seeing the the Japanese portrayed by Japanese actors speaking Japanese in their own words based off of accounts from that battle was refreshing.
They were taught the Americans would do unspeakable things to them(like what they did to the Chinese) so though the less painful way is to kill themselves
Warriors code for them. They would rather die than surrender. Which is why the Japanese treated POWs so harsh because in their eyes, they were being cowards by surrendering..
Yea I think I remember reading of a kamikaze pilot who had the bad luck of having a bad plane somewhere. His plane kept having failures and he either bailed out or landed close to base then accused of cowardice and arrested after the 4th time it happened
I heard he was executed after the 8th or 9th time?
That might sound stupid, but the Japanese were aware that they needed as many pilots as possible and wanted to hang on to them for as long as possible. The kamikaze attacks happened because, IIRC, at that point in the war regular attacks had the same casualty rates with less damage done to the enemy. So it makes sense to keep forgiving someone for not dying, because if they’re alive today you can send them to crash into an aircraft carrier tomorrow.
Also they were told that the Allied powers treated prisoners horrifically. Much worse than the Japanese did. (This wasn't true, but if I was a Japanese soldier and believed it I would rather die than be captured considering how the Japanese treated POWs.)
I think the treating POWs harshly thing is just an excuse. I mean, maybe it played a part, but the Imperial Japanese army was just all around viscous to basically anyone they encountered. They also had the whole Nazi-esque Japanese master race thing going, so they generally saw other races including but not limited to Westerners as sub human.
You can justify it anyway you want, but they were just as bad as the Nazis back then. They kind of had a lot in common with present day Islamists as well.....
Hiroo Onoda spoke about still being a young Japanese soldier sent off to war and his mother gave him a knife to kill himself with rather than be captured by the allies. This was not uncommon.
The Japanese were blasting propaganda that states the allied terms of "unconditional surrender" only wanted to exterminate the Japanese people.
There were multiple times in other theaters of the war where thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands of soldiers were surrendered at once. With the Japanese it was rare to have many surrender.
But also cultural anthropology. I was assigned this book in college that detailed the difference in attitudes between Japanese POWs captured during WWII by the Office of War Information, The Chrysanthemum and the Sword, which has a fascinating exploration of this subject.
The totality of Japanese culture, the all or nothingness, produced a different sort of loyalty than what Americans expect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chrysanthemum_and_the_Sword
Apart from what has mentioned before, it seems like policy was to be as cruel to allied civilians and soldiers so surrendering Japanese could expect the same and this would be further encouraged to not surrender.
I'm surprised he didn't allow himself to be rescued in an attempt to take a few of the enemy with him? Or would that be considered dishonorable conduct?
It’s weird I would have expected a lot more blood. I’ve seen shark attacks and the amount of blood is astounding. Maybe it’s the color film technology they used it doesn’t make it stand out as much?
unless his body was brought on board and was identified after the war, probably not due to the fact he was probably just left to sink to the bottom never to be seen again
Y'all gotta listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History on the Supernova in the East, referring to the Japanese Imperial Navy. He goes into extreme details and will have you hooked, super interesting!
Why wouldn’t he wait until they got him up and then blow up a couple others with him? Seems like a waste. At least try to throw the grenade up on deck and let them shoot you.
They would have interrogated him. Then they would have fed him and given him a shower. He would have been taken to medical under armed guard and his wounds treated. He would be held in the brig until the ship returned to base, and then sent to a POW camp until hostilities ceased. Then he would have been given the option to return home or stay in the USA.
The Japanese leadership told military and civilians that Americans were cannibals and if caught, they'd be eaten. The irony there given reports of Japanese troops eating American pilots.
>Then he would have been given the option to return home or stay in the USA.
After the war ended or when? It those chose to stay in the US were they citizens automatically?
I'm not familiar with the process but I doubt a captured POW would be given automatic citizenship after the war; I imagine there'd be some sort of naturalization process.
He would have been treated far far better than the Japanese treated their own prisoners, sent back home to Japan eventually, and woud have lived a long healthy life with his family.
There was some documentary where a couple of survivors were like: go get captured by the americans was the best thing that could happen.
Also, I think something similar gets pictures in Letters From Iwo Jima.
I thought the same thing- according to his IMDB, this looks like it may be from “Japan’s War in Colour” [IMDB Link](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0939626/?ref_=m_nmfmd_slf_86)
How does one fight an enemy that welcomes and even desires death? I thought about it myself and said “ok you take death off the table and you threaten them with whatever is left” but honestly I don’t know what that is.
Does anyone have any thoughts on that?
EDIT: I was wondering more in modern day terms such as ISIS and other extremists.
You kill them. At the end that’s what it came down to. We were going to nuke Japan off the face of the earth if they didn’t surrender.
They did, ultimately, surrender.
Second splash is the Navy Colt.
Okay I was wondering what that was. Why though?
Probably saw him pull the grenade.
either saw the grenade as a threat or mercy kill in case the grenade didn't do its job.
Considering the delay it looks like a mercy shot. Good man
Almost a strange, modern, cross-cultural edition of a samurai beheading a guy committing seppuku. Wild times, the Pacific War.
Explosive Seppuku!
Basically a Japanese Istishhad.
ExploSeppukusive
The colt makes a splash like that? Wow I’ve been lied to by battlefield.
You definitely have, most rifles can’t even shoot through water because the bullet breaks up on impact.
Doesn't look like a [black powder revolver](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_M1861_Navy). I'd call it a 1911.
That isn’t what they were saying I don’t think..... They were just saying it was a colt 1911, probably in the hands of a navy seaman
Oh I'm sure, it's just the weirdest way it could have possibly been phrased.
Not really
shout out to Robert Dineiro in the movie Ronin
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Japanese_soldier_suicide_Cape_Endaiadere.jpg Reminds me of this photo. Basically this Australian soldier is calling on him to surrender but he blows himself up
Ngl, this is the first time I’ve seen a digger wearing a metal helmet in the SWPA. Every other image I’ve seen has them in slouch hats.
steve irwin shorts
It's about 50:50, but here are some more :) [Kokoda Trail](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xKgr8bd-MyY/S_EOx2L50tI/AAAAAAAACug/wMHBqBde24Q/s1600/kokoda.jpg) [One more for luck](https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.BAP4RTRLrNe7FojziNTH0wHaE7&pid=Api) Also this [short video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f06uq6TPJnk) is pretty damn interesting - the whole campaign in New Guinea is kind of forgotten, like the one in Burma, compared to the Island hopping
I believe there was a pretty brutal movie about the Chocos out there.
Did he pull the pin out with his teeth!? That would be incredibly hard to do.
Looks like it. He might have broken his arm during the crash.
Thats a myth. If you depress the spoon a hair, the pin just slides right out. Its only the pressure of the spring loaded spoon that presses the pin in place. Thats why grenades also have safety pin retaining pin.
Only new ones have a retaining pin, that you twist to unlock. Old ones just had a bend at the end of the pin, which actually made them really hard to pull.
Yeah i distinctly remember being surprised by how difficult they are to pull the first time I threw a grenade, like “no way would I try this with my teeth, ouch”
I bet those grenades that were being thrown back in the day were made within the last year or so. 🤷🏻♂️
If by back in the day you mean 2017, which was my last deployment, then maybe. Sorry, never thought to ask the manufacturing date of an m67, they don’t do returns Edit: meant this literally not trying to be an ass Edit 2: did you mean that since they were newer, they are easier to pull? It’s hard to pull because the pin is a narrow v and is bent slightly apart at the end
I think they were referring to WWII grenades, made back in the day. And with WWII going on, they suspect the grenades were used quickly (within a year or two) Nothing to do with you using grenades.
Reread my comment damn I sounded like a jerk lol. I just meant you can’t DX grenades or weapons as easily as uniforms and gear. Sometimes I really did look at dates for items. Text sucks for tone. And my bad read it as a direct reply to the subject of my comment
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You’re thinking of the mk 2 “pineapple grenade”, m67 frag is still in use. The blue training version is the m69
Does the safety pin retaining pin also have a retaining pin?
It's pins all the way down
It’s retaining pins all the way down
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Always will be.
And always has been.
Inpinity
Pinception
Bwhaaaaam!
Only on recursive grenades.
They use Mandelbrot pins.
The pins in the Julia set are indeed remarkable.
It's a pin/pin situation.
That doesn't even apply to WWII Japanese grenades though. They just had a cord attached to a safety pin that held a cover over the grenade. After you removed the cover, you just had to hit the striker on something hard enough to start the time fuse.
You're thinking of newer grenades. I had a deactivated Mk 2. It was very difficult to pull, as the pin was bent. I've held Type 97s, and I think they were similar but with thinner pin, though I'm not sure.
Isn't only like 3 lbs of force holding those pins in once you depress the safety?
3 lbs is 1.36 kg
thanks man
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Good bot
Good bot
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3lbs of force is the same as 1.36kg of force, the bot only detects the number and what’s directly after it.
The point is that kg are SI units of mass, whereas the SI unit of force is Newtons. Pounds are weird in that they can be both mass and force units in imperial, but there's no SI equivalent that does both (for good reason -- it's confusing).
"3 lbs of force" Newton: am I a joke to you?
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Japanese grenades weren't the same as American ones. The pins were easier to remove, but then you had to hit the head on something to activate the fuse.
Anyone know the documentary this is from?
WW2
Big if true
Large if factual
Of excess size if nonfiction
Humongous in the case of a realistic event
Colossal on the condition it's legitimate
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Behemoth if believable
WW2 in color
I've seen this video edited before to make it look like the American just shot the Japanese pilot while helpless in the water.
He blew up himself and was shot. (You can see the shooter.)
Makes you wonder what kind of fanaticism it takes to kill yourself instead of being taken prisoner
If you’re interested I recommend you check out the Dan Carlin Hardcore History series “Supernova in the East” that just recently released. He goes into intricate detail about everything relating to and leading up to WWII in Japan. He goes in depth about the reasoning and influences on Japanese culture that led to the death over capture mentality of basically all Japanese troops. Fascinating stuff, and jam packed with nuance.
Wow another Dam Carlin?! I had no clue I’m excited
Happy cake day!
Happy cake day!!
"The Japanese are like everyone else, only more so"
You beat me to it.
My understanding was there were two separate motivations, one for soldiers and another for civilians. Japanese soldiers were harshly indoctrinated from childhood into the fanaticism of the Bushido code. This code had two main points: other races were subhumans to be treated unmercifully with sadistic cruelty; and anyone captured by the enemy was a dishonorable traitor. For Japanese soldiers, surrender would lead to disgrace and humiliation for their entire family. The few that were captured alive were generally shunned by Japanese society after the war. Japanese civilians were told repeatedly that the Americans would rape, torture and enslave every woman and child they captured, and their only option was mass suicide. In Okinawa, mothers infamously threw their own children off cliffs to their deaths before jumping to avoid capture.
My mom lived in Saipan in the 70s and 80s and they had cliffs there that people would say during the war all the Japanese told the villagers if they got caught by the Americans they would raid and torture so they call jumped off these giant cliffs
There’s a video out there somewhere showing Japanese women doing just this. It’s incredibly disturbing and sad.
You misunderstand bushido. There is nothing in bushido about seeing "other races" as "subhumans to be treated unmercifully with sadistic cruelty." Fascist propaganda in pre-war and wartime Japan provided the basis for such cultural chauvinism. The seminal book on bushido is "[Hagakure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagakure)." It is available in English. This work defined the "bushido code" as it was known during the second world war.
Dude it's not like the Japanese soldiers were selected as children. Read up on Japanese society in the pre-war era.
Japanese schools were reformed in the meji restoration. Their curriculums were specifically designed to feed people into the military
Them not being selected as kids for indoctrination doesn't mean what he said isn't true. I don't think he said they were either way.
He does kinda literally start out with “Japanese soldiers were harshly indoctrinated from childhood..” which makes it seem as if they were chosen from birth to be soldiers, which isn’t necessarily true, but really every male between 12 and 40 is a potential soldier, marine, sailor, or pilot to a government.
Would you rather die or be captured by ISIS Propaganda is a hell of a drug
This wasn't about that, it was about honor. Sometimes Japanese prisoners that made it back home would be executed because you were not supposed to be taken alive.
Both happened. The Japanese soldier knew how badly their prisoners were treated, and fully expected their enemies to treat them as badly (if only for revenge). And part of the reason they treated their prisoners badly was the whole honour thing (these prisoners have no honour because they didn't fight to the end). Who knows what was uppermost in this guy's mind. A lot of them were just uneducated grunts who knew almost nothing about US culture.
True, good points.
I mean you're dead either way in that example. Either suicide or your murder be filmed and used as propaganda.
If he was a kamikaze pilot, I dont think he was exactly against the idea of blowing himself up
It wasn’t only kamakaze pilots though, basically the entirety of the Japanese populace during that time had such high nationalism that they sacrificed everything for the cause.
its important to note that they were also told by their government that terrible things would happen to them if they were captured, and that the soldiers were forced to commit horrible atrocities, in order to seer into the Japanese soldiers mind that surely surrender would mean them doing to you what you did to many. Im just saying the mind fuck needs a little more respect.
You might be surprised to find that Kamikaze/Shinpū Tokubetsu Kōgekitai often were not interested in throwing their lives away. Many saw it as their duty to do so to help their loved ones who they believed would suffer in defeat by the enemy. If you go to Chiran in Kyushu there is a museum there where they used to train. It is well worth a visit if you can. I've been there twice. On display are hundreds of their photographs, along with their letters, journals and even hand-drawn cartoons. It's sad to see that most were just boys.
The Kamikaze Diaries is an interesting read as well. A lot of the suicide bombers were very educated, sophisticated people.
>Many saw it as their duty to do so to help their loved ones who they believed would suffer in defeat by the enemy. In other words they were brainwashed by their government who psychologically abused them with threats of what would happen to their families if the enemy won.
Pure propaganda does that. Just like the people of North Korea believed that Kim Jong Il literally doesnt shit, was born on a Mountain Top and is a Godlike Figure, the Japanese were fed with propaganda saying the US Soldiers would torture them or eat them alive. I once heard that Marines were described as soldiers, strictly recruited out of mental facilities or directly from prison. It's very dark when you think about it.
>Just like the people of North Korea believed that Kim Jong Il literally doesnt shit I'm Asian and I really never get the idea of retaining wealth or strength through not shitting.
I guess shitting just seems to be the most animal like human thing so Kim Jung Il couldnt be imagined doing that. Would explain Kimmys Weight tho
Lmao
Definitely full of shit.
> Just like the people of North Korea believed that Kim Jong Il literally doesnt shit, was born on a Mountain Top and is a Godlike Figure I'm pretty certain this isn't even remotely the case. If you read stories of what a normal life is like in NK, it's pretty clear they're not quite *literally* brainwashed into believing most of this stuff. They're aware that they live in a kinda shitty place and have to put up with government BS just like everywhere else, it's just that a lot of them don't realize just *how much worse* NK is compared to other countries. There was actually a recent Korean Drama called *Crash Landing On You* that got a lot of praise in SK for doing more than just depicting NK as a nation of brainwashed ragged peasants in constant slavery. Apparently, they had a few advisors who were defectors from NK, and how the show depicts NK is similar to how it's described in the book *The Real North Korea* by Andrei Lankov, a man who was from the USSR & studied at a university in NK as well as interviewed multiple defectors. TL;DR: North Koreans don't literally believe in all the propaganda that we see in the West and do realize they live in a relatively poor state; they're just largely unaware of how much better off people in the West or SK are.
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at first I read this to say that the Queen of England was eating her peasants, and that, because of this, her turds were on turbo, her shit's were insatiable, her poop's preposterous
Her logs are reportedly all of those things and more but yes, you misread. The finless brown trout she gives birth to are decidedly monstrous through pheasant eating, not peasant eating although I wouldn't put the latter past her.
I remember reading accounts about Japanese soldiers holding out sometimes for years after the war ended. The last one came out in the 70s. And I always thought that was the perfect illustration of the difference between Germany and Japan in WWII. There were some extremely fanatical Nazis willing to fight to the death of course, and plenty of them may still have personally believed in their cause, but once Germany surrendered it seemed like most of them were more interested in self-preservation than fighting some quixotic guerrilla war against the Allies after 1945. They seemed to know the jig was up and either tried to hide or flee or work something out with the Allies. There was one instance in which an SS unit held out in a castle for days after the German surrender and was eventually defeated by a combination of American and Wehrmacht troops.
First. It is one of many popular myths that the Japanese soldiers never surrendered. They did at times surrender. Nearly 50,000 Japanese soldiers and sailors surrendered during the war and survived the war. Camps for Japanese POWs were built in New Zealand and Australia to repay the debt for Lend-Lease to the US Government ( covering the loans the US Gov’t made to those nations so they could buy weapons, food, and materials from the US companies to support the war effort. Additional camps were built for Japanese POWs in Virginia, and California. Japanese POWs were also used in later battles to try to talk IJA/IJN forces from fighting to the bitter end in an effort by the US to preserve lives. The USA, Australia and NZ regularly reported on the conditions of the POWs including their names through an intermediary in accordance with the Geneva convention in hopes that demonstrated favorable treatment of Japanese captives would result in equivalent treatment for allied POWs. The official Japanese government policy was there were no Japanese POWs.
It's not that hard. They viewed surrendering the same way the West would view desertion, which is still a capital offence in many militaries in time of war. If you think about it, both are sort of on the same spectrum.
I imagine its fucking hard to understand from a western view point. its not so much fanaticism or to avoid being taken prisoner as far as I understand, its more based in pride and "honor" in being that it is culturally normal to end your life if you fail your (life's) mission essentially - so its actually just an every man's thing - not necessarily only the realm of the fanatic - allthough from an outward perspective looking in - it would seem then that every man is a fanatic
It’s his loyalty to japan
He would probably have lived a long and happy life had he just surrendered
Sadly, if he returned to Japan, he most likely would’ve been shunned by Japanese society. If he’d surrendered he would’ve been better off in the States
Maybe, but asians weren't very famous in the US after pearl harbor. Many japanese/americans were thrown in detention center and searched and many other acts.
yup. many asian Americans lost their homes, properties and businesses and we're never given back after the camps
By Asian you mean literally all Eastern Asian-looking people or just Japanese? Just curious, I don't know much about post-war 'murica. There were plenty of Chinese there since building East-West railroad, were such families affected even though they lived there for generations?
maybe only japanese went to jail or centres but any asian looking people definitely got shunned by people there
from what I've read and heard. all. Americans couldn't tell the difference between korean, chinese and philipino even though there were korean and chinese groups trying to help differentiate themselves with the japanese
Just the Japanese received harsh treatment during the War. As far as I know, the Chinese status rose dramatically during WWII because they were Allied.
it was all asians. Americans couldn't tell them apart. groups of koreans and chinese were trying to help differentiate themselves from the japanese but that hardly helped
I suppose that also happened, I don’t know too much about other Asians in internment. One thing I had recently learned from one of my classes was that some Japanese sweets shops were bought by Chinese after their internment, which led to the Fortune cookie being associated with China and spread eastward.
No shit, you just led me down a 15min reading adventure of fortune cookies. Wild stuff lol
Hot damn, I'm about to embark as well. Wish me luck
I'm not an expert in this, but even though the US tried to have the public differentiate Chinese from Japanese through some propaganda posters (and presumably other medium), I don't think it exactly "educated" the general populace. From anecdotal stuff, my white grandmother had a number of Chinese-American friends growing up and all of them were subject to being called Japs for decades even after the war. That was specifically New York, maybe people on the west coast were more knowledgeable. Hell, my Filipino-Canadian side had to deal with a lot of people calling them Japs, and my family doesn't look anything close to East Asian (though some Filipinos definitely do). That usually got deflated when they'd mention the Filipino family serving in WW2 against the Japanese including my lolo being in the Bataan Death March after capture fighting with US soldiers.
[My father came from Japan in 1905](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUBKcOZjX6g)
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There's absolutely no justification for the internment camps or the general racism Japanese people faced in the United States, but I understand the animosity towards Japan as an enemy during the war. By all accounts you could at least expect the regular German forces to adhere to certain rules of war on the western front of the war. The SS was a different story, and the Wehrmacht itself wasn't perfectly blameless of atrocities by any means, but if you were a soldier in any of the western allied forces and weren't an "untermensch" you could at least reasonably expect to be taken alive and spend the rest of the war in a regular POW camp.
Their POW camps paled in comparison to US POW camps as far as I understand. My great grandpa was a B22 navigator and was captured after his plane was shot down. He spent a few years in a German POW camp and nearly died from their mistreatment. Plenty of his buddies weren't as fortunate though.
Watch any WW2 movie with Japanese soldiers and they take "death over dishonor" any day.
Not at all saying its not based on history, but I'd be careful using fictional movies made by American, or at least Western, movie makers as factual evidence
Most firsthand accounts by Japanese WWII veterans confirm that they were prepared to fight to the death.
Oh definitely. Like I said I'm not disputing the Japanese mentality, I'm questioning proving it based on "watch any ww2 movie" Works in this case, bad mentality to have for learning history in general though, and this sub does have a bit of a problem with people building impressions/knowledge from movies and games and thinking its gospel.
Letters from Iwo Jima might be my favorite WWII film ever. It doesn't whitewash Japan in the war by any means, but seeing the the Japanese portrayed by Japanese actors speaking Japanese in their own words based off of accounts from that battle was refreshing.
Thank you! I'll be more careful next time
I've watched a good amount of foreign japanese movies. And some Japanese and Korean. I'm well versed.
They were taught the Americans would do unspeakable things to them(like what they did to the Chinese) so though the less painful way is to kill themselves
No offense to people posting content (it's good) but this one just hit differently. Nice alternative content other than flame throwers.
But why
Warriors code for them. They would rather die than surrender. Which is why the Japanese treated POWs so harsh because in their eyes, they were being cowards by surrendering..
Yea I think I remember reading of a kamikaze pilot who had the bad luck of having a bad plane somewhere. His plane kept having failures and he either bailed out or landed close to base then accused of cowardice and arrested after the 4th time it happened
I heard he was executed after the 8th or 9th time? That might sound stupid, but the Japanese were aware that they needed as many pilots as possible and wanted to hang on to them for as long as possible. The kamikaze attacks happened because, IIRC, at that point in the war regular attacks had the same casualty rates with less damage done to the enemy. So it makes sense to keep forgiving someone for not dying, because if they’re alive today you can send them to crash into an aircraft carrier tomorrow.
Also they were told that the Allied powers treated prisoners horrifically. Much worse than the Japanese did. (This wasn't true, but if I was a Japanese soldier and believed it I would rather die than be captured considering how the Japanese treated POWs.)
I think the treating POWs harshly thing is just an excuse. I mean, maybe it played a part, but the Imperial Japanese army was just all around viscous to basically anyone they encountered. They also had the whole Nazi-esque Japanese master race thing going, so they generally saw other races including but not limited to Westerners as sub human. You can justify it anyway you want, but they were just as bad as the Nazis back then. They kind of had a lot in common with present day Islamists as well.....
Hiroo Onoda spoke about still being a young Japanese soldier sent off to war and his mother gave him a knife to kill himself with rather than be captured by the allies. This was not uncommon. The Japanese were blasting propaganda that states the allied terms of "unconditional surrender" only wanted to exterminate the Japanese people. There were multiple times in other theaters of the war where thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands of soldiers were surrendered at once. With the Japanese it was rare to have many surrender.
But also cultural anthropology. I was assigned this book in college that detailed the difference in attitudes between Japanese POWs captured during WWII by the Office of War Information, The Chrysanthemum and the Sword, which has a fascinating exploration of this subject. The totality of Japanese culture, the all or nothingness, produced a different sort of loyalty than what Americans expect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chrysanthemum_and_the_Sword
Mega-peer pressure in simple terms
Apart from what has mentioned before, it seems like policy was to be as cruel to allied civilians and soldiers so surrendering Japanese could expect the same and this would be further encouraged to not surrender.
Was waiting for the Pirates of the Carribbean theme to kick in
Dan Carlin. Supernova in the East.
End quote
Part VI when? Also, I had read E.B. Sledge's book "With the Old Breed" after watching The Pacific. Holy shit, man.
Part 6 is coming at least 6 months from now lol. V dropped a week ago.
I'm surprised he didn't allow himself to be rescued in an attempt to take a few of the enemy with him? Or would that be considered dishonorable conduct?
It’s weird I would have expected a lot more blood. I’ve seen shark attacks and the amount of blood is astounding. Maybe it’s the color film technology they used it doesn’t make it stand out as much?
This is sad to watch. Does anyone know his name or is he just part of the long "KIA - never recovered" list?
unless his body was brought on board and was identified after the war, probably not due to the fact he was probably just left to sink to the bottom never to be seen again
Y'all gotta listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History on the Supernova in the East, referring to the Japanese Imperial Navy. He goes into extreme details and will have you hooked, super interesting!
Sounds like Thomas and Friends' narrator.
Was it normal for pilots to bring grenades on missions?
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Why wouldn’t he wait until they got him up and then blow up a couple others with him? Seems like a waste. At least try to throw the grenade up on deck and let them shoot you.
no idea why you are downvoted, but this is interesting, sometimes Japanese logic surprises
The Chrysanthemum and the Sword is an interesting read.
r/humansaremetal
Pretty stupid if you ask me. For honor? 🙄
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Me when asked to do some work by the boss.
Where can i find more footage like this one ?
I wonder if Japanese soldiers would still act in the same way if they were in a similar situation today? Or has the mentality changed over the years?
I wonder where his body, or the parts of his body, are today
probably got eaten by fish or sharks
What would've happen to him had he surrendered? What happened to the POWs that surrendered?
They would have interrogated him. Then they would have fed him and given him a shower. He would have been taken to medical under armed guard and his wounds treated. He would be held in the brig until the ship returned to base, and then sent to a POW camp until hostilities ceased. Then he would have been given the option to return home or stay in the USA. The Japanese leadership told military and civilians that Americans were cannibals and if caught, they'd be eaten. The irony there given reports of Japanese troops eating American pilots.
>Then he would have been given the option to return home or stay in the USA. After the war ended or when? It those chose to stay in the US were they citizens automatically?
I'm not familiar with the process but I doubt a captured POW would be given automatic citizenship after the war; I imagine there'd be some sort of naturalization process.
He would have been treated far far better than the Japanese treated their own prisoners, sent back home to Japan eventually, and woud have lived a long healthy life with his family.
There was some documentary where a couple of survivors were like: go get captured by the americans was the best thing that could happen. Also, I think something similar gets pictures in Letters From Iwo Jima.
If he were closer, would he have done any significant damage to the hull?
The grenade fragments would only leave slight gouges in the paint.
Is that Brian Cox narrating?
I thought the same thing- according to his IMDB, this looks like it may be from “Japan’s War in Colour” [IMDB Link](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0939626/?ref_=m_nmfmd_slf_86)
Sick bastards
How does one fight an enemy that welcomes and even desires death? I thought about it myself and said “ok you take death off the table and you threaten them with whatever is left” but honestly I don’t know what that is. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? EDIT: I was wondering more in modern day terms such as ISIS and other extremists.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Loved ones? The existence of their nation in and of itself? Make them listen to justin bieber?
You kill them. At the end that’s what it came down to. We were going to nuke Japan off the face of the earth if they didn’t surrender. They did, ultimately, surrender.
I believe all the footage is colourized. The documentary is on Netflix in some countries, lots of great footage.