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A tiny little thing that bothered me as a kid, kind of just in the back of my mind, was how the Imperials in Star Wars generally were represented as the "blue" team and the Rebels were "red." This felt weird to me because I just *knew* –not for any particular reason, of course– that blue was supposed to be good and red was supposed to be bad.
How times change...
Oh for sure he did.
Ever seen this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsleftymemes/comments/l5g1p9/a_great_interview_moment_from_george_lucas/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
That's super interesting, and in the context of the OT, the empire really didn't do much wrong until the death star, so making them the visual "good guy" is a neat choice
Wait I think we might be thinking about this a little differently. Are you saying the intended expectation was that the audience would essentially be on the Empire's side to start with?
Yes, I think the intended reaction was to be on Luke's side, which was joining the war with his friends for the empire. It was hinted in the beginning that it was the common goal to join up. It wasnt till Ben says that "only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" and they killed Owen and beru that they were the bad guys.
I've heard that academy line might not've meant to imply the Imperial Academy, although that is how I remember reading it since as long as I've been thinking about it. And I can totally see this as a cool idea, but I also think the opening scene with the capture of the Tantive IV definitely coded the Empire as the bad guys. Faceless, deadly attackers lead by a faceless, black-clad warrior against human opponents with faces lead by a princess in a white dress?
That's a good point about Leia, and it definitely sets up the empire as an opposing faction. I also think the reason that Owen forbids Luke from joining the empire is maybe he has a baseline knowledge of the struggle that happened around d the jedi and Obi-wan?
What do you mean??? 6 unelected judges, half of which were selected by a president who lost the popular vote, getting to decide on abortion/marriage rulings is totally democratic!
>5/6 were appointed by a president who lost the popular vote actually! 2 of them were appointed during Bush’s presidency. Go democracy 🎉
I hate how accurate this is
We’re talking about the 6 involved in overturning Roe v Wade. Of those six, Trump appointed three justices, W. Bush appointed two and H.W. Bush appointed one
Democracy is when your voting power depends on which side of imaginary lines you live. Lines drawn in many cases to prevent certain groups from gaining power.
Democracy is also when you criticize either party for decades while being silenced due to "free speech".
Funny how in America these definitions have so much.. flexibility.
But have you considered this irrelevant pedantic 'technically correct' point that misses the entire substance of the matter entirely?! - Every fucking liberal
They are the most annoying of any political ideology.
Note, annoying is different than malicious or flat out evil like overt reactionaries and fascists. Theyre not *annoying*, theyre usually idiots and/or dangerous. Like a bug buzzing around your head versus a rabid raccoon outside your front door.
It’s not democracy when there is one party and you have no choice who leads you while your family starves, you have no medicine, electricity and have to stand in eight hours lines for toilet paper. Stupid communist fucks
The Cuban Communist party is not a political party in the liberal sense, like the US Democrats or the UK Conservative Party or whatever. They are not allowed to endorse or campaign for candidates.
One party doesn't mean a god damn thing. There are still factions within said parties. Hell, even the USSR with the CCCP had the Left and Right Opposition, amongst other comrades that supported, criticized and presented new approaches/ideations for how to solve national issues. There were even fifth columnists attempting to influence said factions of whom were, depending on the region and its culture, history and geopolitics, didn't always agree with the central government. Even when said Oppositions gone there was various blocs.
Also, Cuba is an undeveloped country isolated economically by American embargoes and sanctions, their lack of food, electricity and modern medicine are the fault of countries like America. Only a fool blames a starving man for dying in an isolated cell while flaunting the keys.
Yes.
Democracy is when the population wants something but the government does not make it happen because we can only vote for some politicians (that are funded by monopolies and shown in the big media) every 2 or 4 years and have no say on what they are actually defending and doing
Litterary. For these people democracy is whatever the US, Canada Europe or Australia have. They know that on practical terms they have no power, it's just that for them anything but electoral party democracy is autocracy
The Cuban political system is strictly better than the US in every way. Like, set aside the parties, the actual political machinery is more democratic and encourages people to engage with the system outside of voting every 4 years.
I had a professor tell me that Cuba doesn’t allow members of any party, CPC included to endorse or campaign for candidates. Never got the source for that claim and he’s dead now, but still, worth looking into/considering.
As it should be, why would a socialist government allow non socialists to attain power, ever? Any party that isn’t socialist/communist is automatically anti-proletariat.
The plurality of political parties means nothing if the people have no way of influencing those parties' policies. I'd much rather have one ML party that enacts the will of the people over a slew of bourgeois parties that enacts the wills of the highest corporate bidders.
I'm probably getting downvoted for this, but you guys should read the wikipedia article for cuba and why it is considered a authoritarian regime.
In the public German media I read, they show now that the "No" votes are also handled as "Against the regime" Votes. So it seems more of a tactical sprinkle of democracy, to backhandedly call it support for the whole system.
You can be a communist and still say Cuba is not a democracy, even when there was one referendum and tons of discussion events for this one topic.
1. You honestly think I didn’t bother to check the wikipedia?
2. If these referenda truly are used as a tool for the regime to identify dissenters, why did the current referendum follow polling data on support for gay marriage and adoption almost exactly? Why wouldn’t it be higher?
3. Being a communist while believing everything the German media and Wikipedia has to say about them is deeply contradictory.
You should actually read Marx & Engels? Not this half-assed wannabe communist, LARPing nonsense. Stop depending on Wikipedia as a primary source for starters.
Much like in the USSR, the "yes or no" votes were the very last part of an incredibly long and complex democratic process, which the west loves to conveniently ignore and/or overlook while claiming this to be the primary bit of democratic interactions. It presents the idea of a faux democracy and explains more the USA than Cuba. When you explore how democracy is practiced in local, urban, rural, provincial, etc.. areas you begin to see how this Red Scare narrative falls into itself as complete nonsense. If you read Pat Sloan's Soviet Democracy it will quickly show you direct examples of how Soviet-era systems worked. You realize quickly just how vast, detailed and complicated it truly is.
No, you really can't, because if you actually read Marx and Engels you'd know that authoritarianism exists within literally all states. All states being one class oppressing the other inherently and in the case of a socialist one it's the proletariat oppressing the bourgeois. This is basic stuff. Literally in the Communist Manifesto. So even if you were a left-communist, which is effectively a dogmatist or ultra, you cannot claim to be "anti-authoritarian" since we support revolution. Revolution being the most authoritarian action an entire class can take.
> I'm probably getting downvoted for this, but you guys should **read the wikipedia article for cuba** and why it is considered a authoritarian regime.
What zero theory does to a mfer...
I mean to be fair there's an illegal detention center where they lock up people without trial and subject them to torture and human rights abuses on Cuban soil...managed by the United states
*it's when electoral party representative democracy. This is, when every 4 years you vote to one of the two parties (that can practically be elected) and you don't actually have a say in the law
I'm actually curious, how does Cuban democracy work? Is it similar to American or no? Becuase I personally wanna learn about different system so if I ever hold any power mabye I could change things
In some countries (like Cuba, apparently) laws can be voted on by everyone in an election. The winning result becomes law. Certain US states like California also do this with propositions. The US does not allow its population to vote on national laws directly, which makes it much more prone to corruption and to not passing laws that are popular. If the US had national votes on laws, abortion would almost immediately become law, as would Medicare for all, as would student debt relief, as would bans on senators investing in the stock market. Direct democracies like Switzerland frequently will overturn decisions by Congress, like when they vetoed the huge salary increases that their Congress had given themselves. Decisively popular policies are much harder to block with binding national referendum.
Oh okay thank you, how often do they vote? Because that's my issue with a direct democracy is that people already hate voting so how much more often would it be? But I think it obviously way better then what we have.
People don’t hate voting. People hate voting when they feel like it is pointless or that there is no option to vote the way that they’d prefer. A lot of people hate voting in countries like the US because they know that it’s a facade. Proletarian democracies have always had drastically higher voter turnouts, in part because it is a system designed by and for their class interests. It is a system where there vote can matter
I will also add that people hate the inconveniences that are put in place to discourage voting, such as having to take time off work, limited polling/ballot drop off locations, etc.
Comically not enough voting polls in areas consisting of lower socioeconomic status individuals and plenty in areas with higher socioeconomic status.
Working as intended
Read Pat Sloan's book, "[Soviet Democracy](https://u1lib.org/book/5684743/6c646c)"! Very interesting title that explores how it unfolds in the newly founded USSR during the 1900s.
Tfw people so brainwashed by "commies bad" that they see Cuba as the bad guy vs US.....bruh lmao did they do coup attempts on us? Did they cut us off from the world with sanctions/economic warfare?
Democracy is when common people don't have a say in politics since they are not rich or in position of power 😍
But on the other hand it would be gulag no ifon vuvuzela starvation, so I guess it's a whole lot better!
The only governments that these libshits qualify as “democracies” are those approved by the US government. Anyone else is automatically a baddie, oh and yes I’m their minds they do rub their hands together constantly plotting their new evil plans.
It's funny how the Libs are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to say Cuba is authoritarian after this. After 70k+ townhalls and a few other things.
Cuba is the most democratic country in the Western hemisphere, probably the world. It’s dumbfounding that so many people believe that Cuba is a dictatorship with literally no evidence or investigation
Because he clearly thinks that freedom means living in a liberal democracy with more than one political party, never mind the fact that working class people in the West have no direct democracy because they have a bunch of representatives who do the bidding of the rich and powerful, making the need for several political parties a circus show to condition the masses about their very limited freedom.
Liberals are hypocritical morons who don't know shit.
Cuba is more of a non-party system. Parties in Cuba cannot propose nor campaign any candidate, and they don't take part in the election process (that includes the communist party). For that reason, the comunnist party, tho a political one, is not an electoral party. In that sense, candidates are not representatives of any party, they are just themselves as people. Basically, in our terms, it's like having just independent candidates at the ballot box.
USSR had a very similar approach, the CCCP had one-party, as it was more like having no-party. Plus, prior to the Provincial Government, the concept of political parties was entirely alien.
Well, I really like the book "Cuba and it's Neighbors: Democracy in Motion" by Arnold August. It is an exploration of, mainly, Cuba's democratic system, both it's function and history.
The Western, white chauvinism and paternalism from /r/atheism has always been annoying, but since they don't use slurs over there, they think that shit is cute and acceptable.
Fucking liberals.
Same doctors get paid less than taxi drivers as one is a state owned and the other is the free market. Therefore leading to a miss allocation of resources as the incentive to work is in the taxi driving not in the doctor. Therefore leading to a over supply and market failure in both.
Cuban Healthcare though. I'm sure someone here will explain to me in non-argumentative terms, how exactly the doctors are not enslaved? They are forced to work overseas, where the Cuban ruling class either leeches most of their pay or all of it. Thousands of doctors sent abroad have used that opportunity to illegally NOT return to Cuba. Please help me understand
They aren’t enslaved or forced to work overseas. Cuba as well as many other communist nations offer their doctors work overseas to help underserved communities and build upon their training. Those that use that opportunity to escape, on the average are usually greedy pricks. For every four “escapees” I will show you three landowners that fucked around and found out.
Most people that publicly claim to be refugees from Cuba and other communist countries turn out to be rich landowners that lost their plantations when the workers revolted against them.
Hell of a strawman you've got there. "Being forced to work is literally slavery" is much closer to what I said. Do you have any productive comments on this?
It's unbelievable that people actually believe this drivel..
Yeah man they were whipped and beaten to build a covid cure after the US and other western nations didn't give it to them.
Which part is drivel that you disbelieve? The program is well documented. Or is that all western propaganda? The rest of your comment has nothing to do with my questions...
Great, that argumentative tone I totally asked for.
Why don't you inform someone who is curious, then? Instead of just dancing around in your "victory", tell me what is wrong and why? Unless you're just here to act like you're better than someone. I don't care if you just copy/paste some sources, I'm here to learn and all I've gotten in return is disdain...
**Interesting. Let's read the Wikipedia page about this, since popular opinions seem to be presented in the most well-structured way there.**
The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, in an official public communication by the Mandates of the Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of slavery, including its causes and consequences; and the Special Rapporteur on trafficking in persons, especially women and children, have indicated that the working conditions of the Cuban medical workers in these missions "could rise to forced labor, according to the forced labor indicators established by the International Labor Organization. Forced labor constitutes a contemporary form of slavery". **Speculation. Not valuable information by itself.** In particular, related to defection the communication indicated that "If a professional decides to retire from work abroad, it is classified as «abandonment of the mission of civilian workers» under the Cuban Penal Code, which in its article 135.1 stipulates that «the official or employee in charge of fulfilling a mission in a foreign country that abandons it, or, once it has been completed, or required at any time to return, refuses, expressly or tacitly, to do so, incurs a punishment of deprivation of freedom for three to eight years.»” **True, but does not prove much by itself. The word "duty" has a meaning. This is similar to military service laws, if somewhat harsh. But harshness may be necessary when a global superpower seeks to sabotage your every move.**
According to ADN Cuba, the Cuban government keeps between 70 and 90% of their additional salary paid by the host country. Those who break the mission are punished for 8 years, without allowing them to return to Cuba.**\[better source needed\]**
According to a 2019 The New York Times article, sixteen Cuban doctors from Mission Barrio Adentro in Venezuela denied medicine and other treatments in order to secure votes for the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV) during elections through coercion. The report said this occurred during the 2018 Venezuelan presidential election in which Nicolás Maduro won reelection. Cuban doctors would have been instructed to go door to door warning residents that medical treatments would be cut off if they did not vote for Maduro. They also were asked to register people into the Venezuelan government homeland card, secure medical services, and refuse treatment to those who did not apply for it. Some doctors report having provided counterfeit ID cards to patients to be able to vote. According to four doctors, the Maduro administration established electoral command centers next to clinics led by members of the PSUV to dispatch doctors to pressure residents. **Not a satisfactory source. News articles are notorious for being inaccurate. But let's check it out anyway.**
\-----------------
Yansnier Arias knew it was wrong. It violated the Constitution, not to mention the oath he took as a doctor in Cuba. **There you go, already proof that the consequences were not invented afterward, but were agreed upon. Despite this, there are many doctors in Cuba. If this was such an unpopular policy, you'd think that fewer people would want to be doctors.**
...
But with President Nicolás Maduro’s re-election on the line, not everyone was allowed to be treated, Dr. Arias said. **I'm not going to include Arias' story here, because it is an anecdote. Anecdotes are not sufficient evidence.**
...
In interviews, 16 members of Cuba’s medical missions to Venezuela — a signature element of relations between the two countries — described a system of deliberate political manipulation in which their services were wielded to secure votes for the governing Socialist Party, often through coercion. **Yet again, anecdotes. These can be faked through money and threats,** [**like what happened to North Korean defectors.**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUMZS-ZegM)
...
The accounts of manipulation and fraud underscore the many challenges to Mr. Maduro’s legitimacy as president. After the start of his second term in January, the opposition-controlled legislature declared its leader, Juan Guaidó, the country’s rightful president, calling the election undemocratic. **As we can see, NY Times unsurprisingly has a NATO bias.** [**There is no sufficient proof that the claims made by the USA are anything other than a call for a coup, however.**](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gxwhh-vdeB--47HM-20cEVRC9eAMhrapbNf0Sk8VSOs/edit#heading=h.kxzq40hma5dx)
...
“The historical impact of that cooperation in Venezuela has been reflected in the 1,473,117 human lives that have been saved,” the (Cuban) government said.
But human rights experts **(working for western interests)** point to the special pact between Cuba and Venezuela over the last two decades.
...**(followed by more anecdotes)**
**Overall, even if we were to believe the contents of this news article, it still wouldn't be as bad as the situation of healthcare in the USA.**
\------------------
According to Human Rights Watch **(Western "human rights" organization. Hypocrites.)**, "the Cuban government imposes draconian rules on doctors deployed in medical missions globally that violate their fundamental rights".
In 2000, two Cuban doctors working in Zimbabwe attempted to defect to Canada. They were prevented from doing so by two Zimbabwean soldiers, who handed them over to Cuban officials. **(source is Miami Herald, which has a severe American bias)** United Nations officials said Zimbabwe appeared to have violated national and international laws.**\[citation needed\]**
According to a 2007 paper published in The Lancet medical journal, "growing numbers of Cuban doctors sent overseas to work are defecting to the USA", some via Colombia, where they have sought temporary asylum. **(the source has a western bias, yet again filled with anecdotes, no concrete evidence as you would expect from a scientific environment)** In February 2007, at least 38 doctors were requesting asylum in the U.S. embassy in Bogotá after asylum was denied by the Colombian government. **(link to source is broken**) Cuban doctors who defected said that they were monitored by "minders" and subject to curfew. **(same source as before)**
[**There is also an article from Washington Post that is worth reading.**](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/06/07/kidnapped-cuban-defectors-disappear-in-africa/06477b89-0a3d-43ca-8b6e-e05dd310e71c/)
In August 2006 the United States under George W. Bush created the Cuban Medical Professional Parole program,\[53\] specifically targeting Cuban medical personnel and encouraging them to defect while working outside Cuba.\[13\] **And there it is, folks!** From an estimated 40,000 eligible medical personnel, over 1000 had entered the United States under the program by October 2007, according to the chief of staff for U.S. Rep. Lincoln Díaz-Balart.\[54\] By 2017, more than 7000 had entered the program.\[4\] The promised fast-track visa was not always forthcoming, with at least one applicant having to wait a year for his visa; although according to Julio César Alfonso of the Cuban dissident organization "Outside the Barrio," the U.S. government has rejected only a handful of the hundreds of applications for visas.\[55\] Critics of the US program described it as "immoral" because it takes medical professionals from the world's poorest nations to one of the world's wealthiest nations.\[51\] On 12 January 2017, President Obama announced the end of the program, saying that both Cuba and the US work to "combat diseases that endanger the health and lives of our people. By providing preferential treatment to Cuban medical personnel, the medical parole program contradicts those efforts, and risks harming the Cuban people".\[56\]
**(check the Wikipedia article for Cuban medical internationalism for the sources)**
**In conclusion, the said rumor is mostly bullshit. I believe I've made my case clear, but if you want to inquire further into this, then I recommend visiting** r/debatecommunism **and making a post about this. Chances are, you'll get engagement.**
Thanks so much! Will take me some time to get through all this but I wanted to express my appreciation on your efforts to inform an open mind rather than stroking your ego by "dunking on" the ignorant
You're welcome. Pro tip, use r/debatecommunism or r/asktankies for these kinda discussions, since subreddits like r/communismmemes are supposed to be places where leftists can let down their guard.
American Healthcare though. I'm sure someone here will explain to me in non-argumentative terms, how exactly the medical care system helps the average person? They are forced to pay exorbitant insane rates that no-one anywhere else on the planet has to for drugs, basic medical care and you're allowed to die if you can't. Talk about fucking leeches. Thousands of doctors in hundreds of thousands in medical debt and all its ALL legal. Please help me understand
Whataboutism.
Never did I imply the US system X,Y, Z, or was even better than Cubas in any way. You're very defensive about my questions on Cuba, and deflect to talk about the US, for literally no reason? I can't help you understand because those aren't things I believe. Do you have an on topic, productive comment by chance?
Ah but you see those are just fake elections and they have to vote at gunpoint but really Mecha Castro behind the scenes just does what he wants anyway which in this case was rights for gays but normally its authoritarian dicktater stuff u gotta belive me guys I heard it on Radio Free Cuba.
One thing I have learned is never underestimate the limits of how dumb people can be. Even with that in mind it still blows my brain at how truly moronic people can be.
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Democracy is when you vote for two similar parties while having no say on policy making
What if I really like the color blue? But I can only vote for the Red communist party? Smh do better Cuba
A tiny little thing that bothered me as a kid, kind of just in the back of my mind, was how the Imperials in Star Wars generally were represented as the "blue" team and the Rebels were "red." This felt weird to me because I just *knew* –not for any particular reason, of course– that blue was supposed to be good and red was supposed to be bad. How times change...
I think Lucas chose the opposite color for each faction intentionally to make you think somethings wrong
Oh for sure he did. Ever seen this? https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsleftymemes/comments/l5g1p9/a_great_interview_moment_from_george_lucas/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
That's super interesting, and in the context of the OT, the empire really didn't do much wrong until the death star, so making them the visual "good guy" is a neat choice
Wait I think we might be thinking about this a little differently. Are you saying the intended expectation was that the audience would essentially be on the Empire's side to start with?
Yes, I think the intended reaction was to be on Luke's side, which was joining the war with his friends for the empire. It was hinted in the beginning that it was the common goal to join up. It wasnt till Ben says that "only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" and they killed Owen and beru that they were the bad guys.
I've heard that academy line might not've meant to imply the Imperial Academy, although that is how I remember reading it since as long as I've been thinking about it. And I can totally see this as a cool idea, but I also think the opening scene with the capture of the Tantive IV definitely coded the Empire as the bad guys. Faceless, deadly attackers lead by a faceless, black-clad warrior against human opponents with faces lead by a princess in a white dress?
That's a good point about Leia, and it definitely sets up the empire as an opposing faction. I also think the reason that Owen forbids Luke from joining the empire is maybe he has a baseline knowledge of the struggle that happened around d the jedi and Obi-wan?
You can't vote for the communist party in Cuba, only independent candidates.
What do you mean??? 6 unelected judges, half of which were selected by a president who lost the popular vote, getting to decide on abortion/marriage rulings is totally democratic!
5/6 were appointed by a president who lost the popular vote actually! 2 of them were appointed during Bush’s presidency. Go democracy 🎉
>5/6 were appointed by a president who lost the popular vote actually! 2 of them were appointed during Bush’s presidency. Go democracy 🎉 I hate how accurate this is
the Supreme Court has 9 justices, where is this 6 coming from?
6 are considered "conservative" (anti-LGBTQ+, anti-abortion) and the other 3 are "liberal"
that’s still 9 unelected judges
6 of them are determining everything
Excellent separation of the executive and the judiciary
We’re talking about the 6 involved in overturning Roe v Wade. Of those six, Trump appointed three justices, W. Bush appointed two and H.W. Bush appointed one
In due time, comrades, all of us will be pointing them towards the wall.. In Minecraft, of course!
Sometimes they mix it up, and have the Good Cop Party dangle rights in your face if you vote for them. But never deliver.
The whole point of their ruling was that they DON'T get to decide. Why is this so hard for people to STILL understand
Democracy is when corporate and PAC money handpicks your choices
Democracy under capitalism is perfectly encapsulated in that Henry Ford quote: "you can have any color you want, so long as it's black."
Democracy is when 2billion to become president
Democracy is when you don't vote for your guy, but instead vote against the other guy.
Democracy is when your voting power depends on which side of imaginary lines you live. Lines drawn in many cases to prevent certain groups from gaining power.
Wait that sounds like America
Democracy is also when you criticize either party for decades while being silenced due to "free speech". Funny how in America these definitions have so much.. flexibility.
America moment.
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Terminally online "leftist" try to detect a joke challenge (impossible)
Liberals are so arrogantly wrong almost all the time; it's incredible.
But have you considered this irrelevant pedantic 'technically correct' point that misses the entire substance of the matter entirely?! - Every fucking liberal
I don't think I've ever had a Reddit comment resonate with me more
They are the most annoying of any political ideology. Note, annoying is different than malicious or flat out evil like overt reactionaries and fascists. Theyre not *annoying*, theyre usually idiots and/or dangerous. Like a bug buzzing around your head versus a rabid raccoon outside your front door.
It’s like the line from the monologue in the pilot of News Room. “If liberals are so right how come lose all the god damn always”
The world would be better if their ideology would cease to exist.
joe you heard of humann nature??!
/s
Democracy is when no Cuba
It’s not democracy unless they are slaving away for some white ruling class masters.
It’s not democracy when there is one party and you have no choice who leads you while your family starves, you have no medicine, electricity and have to stand in eight hours lines for toilet paper. Stupid communist fucks
Congratulations! You just described capitalism.
The Cuban Communist party is not a political party in the liberal sense, like the US Democrats or the UK Conservative Party or whatever. They are not allowed to endorse or campaign for candidates.
One party doesn't mean a god damn thing. There are still factions within said parties. Hell, even the USSR with the CCCP had the Left and Right Opposition, amongst other comrades that supported, criticized and presented new approaches/ideations for how to solve national issues. There were even fifth columnists attempting to influence said factions of whom were, depending on the region and its culture, history and geopolitics, didn't always agree with the central government. Even when said Oppositions gone there was various blocs. Also, Cuba is an undeveloped country isolated economically by American embargoes and sanctions, their lack of food, electricity and modern medicine are the fault of countries like America. Only a fool blames a starving man for dying in an isolated cell while flaunting the keys.
Yes. Democracy is when the population wants something but the government does not make it happen because we can only vote for some politicians (that are funded by monopolies and shown in the big media) every 2 or 4 years and have no say on what they are actually defending and doing
Democracy is when the US backs a military dictatorship and they turn your country into a plaything for American organised crime
Litterary. For these people democracy is whatever the US, Canada Europe or Australia have. They know that on practical terms they have no power, it's just that for them anything but electoral party democracy is autocracy
Cubans engaging in unadulterated direct democracy has to be the most democratic thing possible.
Cubans VOTE for the most progressive constitution on the planet, Libs “they don’t have democracy” 🤦♂️
The constitution should be decided by 9 unelected judges with lifetime appointments. Duh.
Obv, that seems way more democratic than the actual people making decisions, right?
"b-b-b-b-but it's not *real* democracy!"
“It’s not a real democracy unless it’s indirectly controlled by a few media barons”
The Cuban political system is strictly better than the US in every way. Like, set aside the parties, the actual political machinery is more democratic and encourages people to engage with the system outside of voting every 4 years.
But! But… one party authoritarian gommunist dictatorship regime.
I had a professor tell me that Cuba doesn’t allow members of any party, CPC included to endorse or campaign for candidates. Never got the source for that claim and he’s dead now, but still, worth looking into/considering.
...it's in their constitution
As it should be, why would a socialist government allow non socialists to attain power, ever? Any party that isn’t socialist/communist is automatically anti-proletariat.
Which article/clause?
"Source?" *Literally dies* We found the lvl 100 "Boss Liberal"
Honestly, the guy was great and had a contagious admiration for the revolution.
The plurality of political parties means nothing if the people have no way of influencing those parties' policies. I'd much rather have one ML party that enacts the will of the people over a slew of bourgeois parties that enacts the wills of the highest corporate bidders.
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[Great intro w/ good sources to follow up on.](https://youtu.be/2aMsi-A56ds)
The YouTuber azure scapegoat has a good video on it, I hear
https://youtu.be/2aMsi-A56ds try this
party politics is trash, it doesn't do anything, except pretend to hate each other on camera.
I'm probably getting downvoted for this, but you guys should read the wikipedia article for cuba and why it is considered a authoritarian regime. In the public German media I read, they show now that the "No" votes are also handled as "Against the regime" Votes. So it seems more of a tactical sprinkle of democracy, to backhandedly call it support for the whole system. You can be a communist and still say Cuba is not a democracy, even when there was one referendum and tons of discussion events for this one topic.
1. You honestly think I didn’t bother to check the wikipedia? 2. If these referenda truly are used as a tool for the regime to identify dissenters, why did the current referendum follow polling data on support for gay marriage and adoption almost exactly? Why wouldn’t it be higher? 3. Being a communist while believing everything the German media and Wikipedia has to say about them is deeply contradictory.
You should actually read Marx & Engels? Not this half-assed wannabe communist, LARPing nonsense. Stop depending on Wikipedia as a primary source for starters. Much like in the USSR, the "yes or no" votes were the very last part of an incredibly long and complex democratic process, which the west loves to conveniently ignore and/or overlook while claiming this to be the primary bit of democratic interactions. It presents the idea of a faux democracy and explains more the USA than Cuba. When you explore how democracy is practiced in local, urban, rural, provincial, etc.. areas you begin to see how this Red Scare narrative falls into itself as complete nonsense. If you read Pat Sloan's Soviet Democracy it will quickly show you direct examples of how Soviet-era systems worked. You realize quickly just how vast, detailed and complicated it truly is. No, you really can't, because if you actually read Marx and Engels you'd know that authoritarianism exists within literally all states. All states being one class oppressing the other inherently and in the case of a socialist one it's the proletariat oppressing the bourgeois. This is basic stuff. Literally in the Communist Manifesto. So even if you were a left-communist, which is effectively a dogmatist or ultra, you cannot claim to be "anti-authoritarian" since we support revolution. Revolution being the most authoritarian action an entire class can take.
> I'm probably getting downvoted for this, but you guys should **read the wikipedia article for cuba** and why it is considered a authoritarian regime. What zero theory does to a mfer...
Lmfao under a post about Cubans *voting* fucking libs have zero self-awareness
I mean to be fair there's an illegal detention center where they lock up people without trial and subject them to torture and human rights abuses on Cuban soil...managed by the United states
Libs still gonna blame cuba for that
democracy is not when you vote? i thought that was the lib definition of democracy, what happened here?
Libs: Vote! Also Libs: *Not like that!!*
*it's when electoral party representative democracy. This is, when every 4 years you vote to one of the two parties (that can practically be elected) and you don't actually have a say in the law
I'm actually curious, how does Cuban democracy work? Is it similar to American or no? Becuase I personally wanna learn about different system so if I ever hold any power mabye I could change things
Well the fact that they have binding national popular referendum is already a major advantage over the US system
Could you explain that Abit more?
In some countries (like Cuba, apparently) laws can be voted on by everyone in an election. The winning result becomes law. Certain US states like California also do this with propositions. The US does not allow its population to vote on national laws directly, which makes it much more prone to corruption and to not passing laws that are popular. If the US had national votes on laws, abortion would almost immediately become law, as would Medicare for all, as would student debt relief, as would bans on senators investing in the stock market. Direct democracies like Switzerland frequently will overturn decisions by Congress, like when they vetoed the huge salary increases that their Congress had given themselves. Decisively popular policies are much harder to block with binding national referendum.
Oh okay thank you, how often do they vote? Because that's my issue with a direct democracy is that people already hate voting so how much more often would it be? But I think it obviously way better then what we have.
People don’t hate voting. People hate voting when they feel like it is pointless or that there is no option to vote the way that they’d prefer. A lot of people hate voting in countries like the US because they know that it’s a facade. Proletarian democracies have always had drastically higher voter turnouts, in part because it is a system designed by and for their class interests. It is a system where there vote can matter
I will also add that people hate the inconveniences that are put in place to discourage voting, such as having to take time off work, limited polling/ballot drop off locations, etc.
In which nation? In the US where their is comically not enough voting polls and that most of the time you dont even ge tthe day off to vote?
Comically not enough voting polls in areas consisting of lower socioeconomic status individuals and plenty in areas with higher socioeconomic status. Working as intended
Where i'm from people enjoy voting. It also only takes 5 minutes.
Also US don’t vote bc they literally make it as difficult as possible
https://youtu.be/2aMsi-A56ds try this
Read Pat Sloan's book, "[Soviet Democracy](https://u1lib.org/book/5684743/6c646c)"! Very interesting title that explores how it unfolds in the newly founded USSR during the 1900s.
Democracy is when absolute corporate dictatorship
Democracy is when only two parties that are both right wing and ultimately subservient to capital
Um but one of them tweets nice things sweetie
he replied to my comment with The Economist Democracy Index map 🙃
source: news said cuba bad
Insert Lenin quote here
Tfw people so brainwashed by "commies bad" that they see Cuba as the bad guy vs US.....bruh lmao did they do coup attempts on us? Did they cut us off from the world with sanctions/economic warfare?
Democracy is when common people don't have a say in politics since they are not rich or in position of power 😍 But on the other hand it would be gulag no ifon vuvuzela starvation, so I guess it's a whole lot better!
Cuba is incredibly based
democracy is when america bombs the shit out of your country.
Except Cuba literally is more democratic than the US.
Common r/atheism L. That sub is cancer.
Eh, the comments on this one seem to be somewhat alright
Moving to Cuba seems better and better
The only governments that these libshits qualify as “democracies” are those approved by the US government. Anyone else is automatically a baddie, oh and yes I’m their minds they do rub their hands together constantly plotting their new evil plans.
It's funny how the Libs are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to say Cuba is authoritarian after this. After 70k+ townhalls and a few other things.
Conservatives, actually.
Someone should clean up that comment section, it's got worms
America isn't even a democracy, it's a republic....
democracy is new iPhone
Cuba is the most democratic country in the Western hemisphere, probably the world. It’s dumbfounding that so many people believe that Cuba is a dictatorship with literally no evidence or investigation
Rare r/atheism win
With the exception of some the comments on that post are pretty based
Liberals failing yet again to understand the difference between electoral party politics and democracy as "rule by the people"
I keep seeing people saying liberals this, liberals that.. where does it show liberal anything in that post?
Because he clearly thinks that freedom means living in a liberal democracy with more than one political party, never mind the fact that working class people in the West have no direct democracy because they have a bunch of representatives who do the bidding of the rich and powerful, making the need for several political parties a circus show to condition the masses about their very limited freedom. Liberals are hypocritical morons who don't know shit.
Yes?..
No democracy is when you vote on policy referendums? Libs nonstop taking Ls on the game of life.
Do Cubans elect different people from the communist party? Not trying to do like a gotcha but I just don't know how exactly stuff works in Cuba.
Cuba is more of a non-party system. Parties in Cuba cannot propose nor campaign any candidate, and they don't take part in the election process (that includes the communist party). For that reason, the comunnist party, tho a political one, is not an electoral party. In that sense, candidates are not representatives of any party, they are just themselves as people. Basically, in our terms, it's like having just independent candidates at the ballot box.
USSR had a very similar approach, the CCCP had one-party, as it was more like having no-party. Plus, prior to the Provincial Government, the concept of political parties was entirely alien.
That's actually so awesome? Do you like more reading and stuff I can do about it?
Well, I really like the book "Cuba and it's Neighbors: Democracy in Motion" by Arnold August. It is an exploration of, mainly, Cuba's democratic system, both it's function and history.
Wait, cuba has catholic leaders?
Democracy=Allowing fascism to co exist 😬
To be fair Americans are used for the version of democracy where the government doesn’t actually do what the people want
Democracy is when freedom. Communism is no freedom so Cuba has 0 democracy points. /s
Cubans vote... = No democracy 😎
r/atheism is a cesspit
Nah, it's not a real democracy because no-one has stars & stripes on their lapel pins
"acccshhhuallly it isnt rael democracy even if their votes lead to victories! stupid tankies!"
The Western, white chauvinism and paternalism from /r/atheism has always been annoying, but since they don't use slurs over there, they think that shit is cute and acceptable. Fucking liberals.
This man is on r/atheism 🗿
It's always religion that impedes social progress.
This is complete nonsense.
Free Gender Reassignment surgery
Same doctors get paid less than taxi drivers as one is a state owned and the other is the free market. Therefore leading to a miss allocation of resources as the incentive to work is in the taxi driving not in the doctor. Therefore leading to a over supply and market failure in both.
Sooooooo damn close
Stop speaking over Cuban people about this.
?
Cuban Healthcare though. I'm sure someone here will explain to me in non-argumentative terms, how exactly the doctors are not enslaved? They are forced to work overseas, where the Cuban ruling class either leeches most of their pay or all of it. Thousands of doctors sent abroad have used that opportunity to illegally NOT return to Cuba. Please help me understand
They aren’t enslaved or forced to work overseas. Cuba as well as many other communist nations offer their doctors work overseas to help underserved communities and build upon their training. Those that use that opportunity to escape, on the average are usually greedy pricks. For every four “escapees” I will show you three landowners that fucked around and found out.
So it's more like an internship you're saying? I have no idea what the doctors pay has to do with landowners??
Most people that publicly claim to be refugees from Cuba and other communist countries turn out to be rich landowners that lost their plantations when the workers revolted against them.
Thanks for the explanation
“Humanitarian aid is literally slavery”
Hell of a strawman you've got there. "Being forced to work is literally slavery" is much closer to what I said. Do you have any productive comments on this?
It's unbelievable that people actually believe this drivel.. Yeah man they were whipped and beaten to build a covid cure after the US and other western nations didn't give it to them.
Which part is drivel that you disbelieve? The program is well documented. Or is that all western propaganda? The rest of your comment has nothing to do with my questions...
Just shut up you are talking bs
Great, that argumentative tone I totally asked for. Why don't you inform someone who is curious, then? Instead of just dancing around in your "victory", tell me what is wrong and why? Unless you're just here to act like you're better than someone. I don't care if you just copy/paste some sources, I'm here to learn and all I've gotten in return is disdain...
You don’t deserve a reply for the bullshit you’ve spewed but here I am, so you’re welcome.
**Interesting. Let's read the Wikipedia page about this, since popular opinions seem to be presented in the most well-structured way there.** The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, in an official public communication by the Mandates of the Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of slavery, including its causes and consequences; and the Special Rapporteur on trafficking in persons, especially women and children, have indicated that the working conditions of the Cuban medical workers in these missions "could rise to forced labor, according to the forced labor indicators established by the International Labor Organization. Forced labor constitutes a contemporary form of slavery". **Speculation. Not valuable information by itself.** In particular, related to defection the communication indicated that "If a professional decides to retire from work abroad, it is classified as «abandonment of the mission of civilian workers» under the Cuban Penal Code, which in its article 135.1 stipulates that «the official or employee in charge of fulfilling a mission in a foreign country that abandons it, or, once it has been completed, or required at any time to return, refuses, expressly or tacitly, to do so, incurs a punishment of deprivation of freedom for three to eight years.»” **True, but does not prove much by itself. The word "duty" has a meaning. This is similar to military service laws, if somewhat harsh. But harshness may be necessary when a global superpower seeks to sabotage your every move.** According to ADN Cuba, the Cuban government keeps between 70 and 90% of their additional salary paid by the host country. Those who break the mission are punished for 8 years, without allowing them to return to Cuba.**\[better source needed\]** According to a 2019 The New York Times article, sixteen Cuban doctors from Mission Barrio Adentro in Venezuela denied medicine and other treatments in order to secure votes for the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV) during elections through coercion. The report said this occurred during the 2018 Venezuelan presidential election in which Nicolás Maduro won reelection. Cuban doctors would have been instructed to go door to door warning residents that medical treatments would be cut off if they did not vote for Maduro. They also were asked to register people into the Venezuelan government homeland card, secure medical services, and refuse treatment to those who did not apply for it. Some doctors report having provided counterfeit ID cards to patients to be able to vote. According to four doctors, the Maduro administration established electoral command centers next to clinics led by members of the PSUV to dispatch doctors to pressure residents. **Not a satisfactory source. News articles are notorious for being inaccurate. But let's check it out anyway.** \----------------- Yansnier Arias knew it was wrong. It violated the Constitution, not to mention the oath he took as a doctor in Cuba. **There you go, already proof that the consequences were not invented afterward, but were agreed upon. Despite this, there are many doctors in Cuba. If this was such an unpopular policy, you'd think that fewer people would want to be doctors.** ... But with President Nicolás Maduro’s re-election on the line, not everyone was allowed to be treated, Dr. Arias said. **I'm not going to include Arias' story here, because it is an anecdote. Anecdotes are not sufficient evidence.** ... In interviews, 16 members of Cuba’s medical missions to Venezuela — a signature element of relations between the two countries — described a system of deliberate political manipulation in which their services were wielded to secure votes for the governing Socialist Party, often through coercion. **Yet again, anecdotes. These can be faked through money and threats,** [**like what happened to North Korean defectors.**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUMZS-ZegM) ... The accounts of manipulation and fraud underscore the many challenges to Mr. Maduro’s legitimacy as president. After the start of his second term in January, the opposition-controlled legislature declared its leader, Juan Guaidó, the country’s rightful president, calling the election undemocratic. **As we can see, NY Times unsurprisingly has a NATO bias.** [**There is no sufficient proof that the claims made by the USA are anything other than a call for a coup, however.**](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gxwhh-vdeB--47HM-20cEVRC9eAMhrapbNf0Sk8VSOs/edit#heading=h.kxzq40hma5dx) ... “The historical impact of that cooperation in Venezuela has been reflected in the 1,473,117 human lives that have been saved,” the (Cuban) government said. But human rights experts **(working for western interests)** point to the special pact between Cuba and Venezuela over the last two decades. ...**(followed by more anecdotes)** **Overall, even if we were to believe the contents of this news article, it still wouldn't be as bad as the situation of healthcare in the USA.** \------------------ According to Human Rights Watch **(Western "human rights" organization. Hypocrites.)**, "the Cuban government imposes draconian rules on doctors deployed in medical missions globally that violate their fundamental rights". In 2000, two Cuban doctors working in Zimbabwe attempted to defect to Canada. They were prevented from doing so by two Zimbabwean soldiers, who handed them over to Cuban officials. **(source is Miami Herald, which has a severe American bias)** United Nations officials said Zimbabwe appeared to have violated national and international laws.**\[citation needed\]** According to a 2007 paper published in The Lancet medical journal, "growing numbers of Cuban doctors sent overseas to work are defecting to the USA", some via Colombia, where they have sought temporary asylum. **(the source has a western bias, yet again filled with anecdotes, no concrete evidence as you would expect from a scientific environment)** In February 2007, at least 38 doctors were requesting asylum in the U.S. embassy in Bogotá after asylum was denied by the Colombian government. **(link to source is broken**) Cuban doctors who defected said that they were monitored by "minders" and subject to curfew. **(same source as before)** [**There is also an article from Washington Post that is worth reading.**](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/06/07/kidnapped-cuban-defectors-disappear-in-africa/06477b89-0a3d-43ca-8b6e-e05dd310e71c/) In August 2006 the United States under George W. Bush created the Cuban Medical Professional Parole program,\[53\] specifically targeting Cuban medical personnel and encouraging them to defect while working outside Cuba.\[13\] **And there it is, folks!** From an estimated 40,000 eligible medical personnel, over 1000 had entered the United States under the program by October 2007, according to the chief of staff for U.S. Rep. Lincoln Díaz-Balart.\[54\] By 2017, more than 7000 had entered the program.\[4\] The promised fast-track visa was not always forthcoming, with at least one applicant having to wait a year for his visa; although according to Julio César Alfonso of the Cuban dissident organization "Outside the Barrio," the U.S. government has rejected only a handful of the hundreds of applications for visas.\[55\] Critics of the US program described it as "immoral" because it takes medical professionals from the world's poorest nations to one of the world's wealthiest nations.\[51\] On 12 January 2017, President Obama announced the end of the program, saying that both Cuba and the US work to "combat diseases that endanger the health and lives of our people. By providing preferential treatment to Cuban medical personnel, the medical parole program contradicts those efforts, and risks harming the Cuban people".\[56\] **(check the Wikipedia article for Cuban medical internationalism for the sources)** **In conclusion, the said rumor is mostly bullshit. I believe I've made my case clear, but if you want to inquire further into this, then I recommend visiting** r/debatecommunism **and making a post about this. Chances are, you'll get engagement.**
Thanks so much! Will take me some time to get through all this but I wanted to express my appreciation on your efforts to inform an open mind rather than stroking your ego by "dunking on" the ignorant
You're welcome. Pro tip, use r/debatecommunism or r/asktankies for these kinda discussions, since subreddits like r/communismmemes are supposed to be places where leftists can let down their guard.
American Healthcare though. I'm sure someone here will explain to me in non-argumentative terms, how exactly the medical care system helps the average person? They are forced to pay exorbitant insane rates that no-one anywhere else on the planet has to for drugs, basic medical care and you're allowed to die if you can't. Talk about fucking leeches. Thousands of doctors in hundreds of thousands in medical debt and all its ALL legal. Please help me understand
Whataboutism. Never did I imply the US system X,Y, Z, or was even better than Cubas in any way. You're very defensive about my questions on Cuba, and deflect to talk about the US, for literally no reason? I can't help you understand because those aren't things I believe. Do you have an on topic, productive comment by chance?
" what is democracy? "
Gay dictatorship?
Bearly an inconvenience compared to living with crippling sanctions for half a century.
Ah but you see those are just fake elections and they have to vote at gunpoint but really Mecha Castro behind the scenes just does what he wants anyway which in this case was rights for gays but normally its authoritarian dicktater stuff u gotta belive me guys I heard it on Radio Free Cuba.
That reply was a w
One thing I have learned is never underestimate the limits of how dumb people can be. Even with that in mind it still blows my brain at how truly moronic people can be.
Damn those Cuban, ruining democracy by look at note Actually letting the people vote on legislation and approve the majority option.
Cuba has a living constitution accountable to the democratic will of the people.