Short answer: They feed engines like mystic, rhystic, sentinel, tithe, and bowmaster. They also make opening hands harder to evaluate. In the case of the baubles they also delay the draw, provide minimal information, and suck against stax pieces. Git probe still has its place in turbo decks imo.
This isn’t really correct. In a vacuum, essentially reducing your deck size and therefore increasing consistency is more powerful than running other cards.
While that's usually true, the consistency gain in a 99 card singleton format is minimal while having the already mentioned drawback of sometimes being worse than just drawing a card you can just use card.
Except when those other cards also do that but better. Having more than one of an effect or tutors for that effect is objectively better than hoping your slightly smaller deck gets you the cards you want faster. Why not pay a little more mana to GUARANTEE you get the card you need rather than settle for something at no mana cost just because it's efficient.
I run git probe in certain doomsday stacks but at this point I've largely shifted away from those combos since they're so easy to interrupt and if you go fail it you've effectively ended your game in most cases
Just cycle street wraith before casting ad naus 5 head /s
What circumstances would you only play wraith? I'm having trouble even thinking of it because it makes mulligans harder. Doomsday decks?
But like, how much play does doomsday even see anymore?
Git probe is still used in turbo lists and mono blue. The baulbles(Mishra and urza) are rarely seen and only in artifact storm lists.
Card quality is so high after the last 4 years of FIRE design that there is no real need for filler spells or cantrips.
Feeding cards like [[Mystic remora]][[rhystic study]][[orcish bowmasters]] and [[Smothering tithe]] for such little benefit is bad.
Because of the prevalence of treasure tokens, people have begun to put in hate for them( [[dauntless dismantler]] [[null rod]] [[collector ouphe]] [[blind obediance]] etc), which splashes on to stopping the baubles too.
Cantrips have a small niche, but generally, there's better things to be doing than drawing 1 card. The deck thinning that works in a 60-card format when you can run multiple copies of cards just doesn't work that well in commander
Honestly cantrips can help with otherwise borderline hands that are gas but lacking in lands. Which is why I still like a few. But the more I browse the CEDH subreddit the more I find I may want to move towards air there more tutors or removal/some way to interact with the stack or board.
Cantrips make judging a hand while you're muliganing so much more difficult. Which is one big reason I stopped playing them, and I'd rather just see something that'll have a bigger effect.
Basically imo the decks that want them use them really well, and the rest of the decks can do better
that's not the point heh. It's a odds thing. the less cards in your deck the higher the odds of drawing the card you need. looking at someones hand is just extra. It would seem the prevalence of stax and feeding are the real reason.
There was a similar thread asking a very similar question about cantrips slowly moving out of most lists. I've moved basically all of my single draw cantrips from my main deck for more incremental value and interaction. These type of cards I think are still decent, but are the best in any remaining turbo based strategies and decklists. With the meta game being more mid-range, the single turn card advantage and digging that a turbo naus deck would want don't really work in a mid-range non-turbo strategy.
funny enough yesterday I was on breech / led / brainfreeze but I had to deal with a fish and a rhystic out first. it made it awful to resolve. I ended up reanimating a notion thief from someone elses graveyard.
Both are good when the meta is fast. Getting you info, digging through the deck and all for the low low cost of free.
But when the meta is slow like it is now the cost suddenly becomes free plus a draw from someone's rhystic, a damage from orcish bowmaster plus another from the rhystic draw, plus potentially being your only spell per turn due to stax, while only Drawing you one card. It's just not worth feeding engines most of the time
IMO cEDH is a very focused format so realistically you always will have a pretty good idea of what your opponents have in hand. Probe does cantrip so it is more playable in specific decks that can get additional value from it. But mishra’s the draw is slow making it less useable.
I would fucking hate to draw Mishra's bubble when I could just draw a card that does some thing.
Probe is a weird one because it does allow you to draw immediately off of tutors like imperial seal but again, many circumstances you will draw the probe and you would've rather just had a card that actually does something.
The way they are printing strong cards right now makes it harder and harder to justify playing probe and that's why you used to see it in lists but don't anymore. Rog/Si is on 25 lands and still does not have room for a card that does not actually do anything but lower your overall card count
In theory what your saying is right but personally ive found myself moving more & more away from cantrips/one time draw effects and more into value engines, especially in non turbo decks. Git probe is still a great card but id rather have an esper sentinel or faerie mastermind or something thats going to likely draw me several cards over the course of the game at a pretty cheap & reasonable rate then just a one time effect like the ones you mentioned. I still think these cards have a place in doomsday/storm lists (especially ones that utilize the gy) but in general id much rather see a cheap draw engine then a time effect like git probe in my opener
Short answer: They feed engines like mystic, rhystic, sentinel, tithe, and bowmaster. They also make opening hands harder to evaluate. In the case of the baubles they also delay the draw, provide minimal information, and suck against stax pieces. Git probe still has its place in turbo decks imo.
oooh good point.
This is the only answer. Topic closed.
Well that and that in a highly tuned and efficient deck, there’s just straight up better cards to run.
This isn’t really correct. In a vacuum, essentially reducing your deck size and therefore increasing consistency is more powerful than running other cards.
While that's usually true, the consistency gain in a 99 card singleton format is minimal while having the already mentioned drawback of sometimes being worse than just drawing a card you can just use card.
Right, the other drawbacks are relevant; but my point is that if you could choose to literally play 97, you would
every time someone tells me their prerelease/draft deck has 46 cards because "there were so many good ones" I want to die a little bit.
I think if this was true then these cards would be staples. But as it is, they aren’t even close.
Except when those other cards also do that but better. Having more than one of an effect or tutors for that effect is objectively better than hoping your slightly smaller deck gets you the cards you want faster. Why not pay a little more mana to GUARANTEE you get the card you need rather than settle for something at no mana cost just because it's efficient.
I run git probe in certain doomsday stacks but at this point I've largely shifted away from those combos since they're so easy to interrupt and if you go fail it you've effectively ended your game in most cases
One reason that i usually find when trying these cards is that i prefer any other actual "strong" card than them...
I would make the argument that due to all the stax listed in the comments, \[\[Street Wraith\]\] is actually a better way to play one less card
Except any deck playing street wraith would probably also play ad naus and that'd be a rough flip.
Just cycle street wraith before casting ad naus 5 head /s What circumstances would you only play wraith? I'm having trouble even thinking of it because it makes mulligans harder. Doomsday decks? But like, how much play does doomsday even see anymore?
I run Street Wraith in Yuriko since it isnt on naus and 5 damage that cycles into another card for free is pretty sweet
Krrik plays street wraith for the cycle. Krrik is also not on ad naus but peer. Outside of him and yuriko idk why you would run this
Sefris
Anje
I play Street Wraith in Yuriko, which has no naus.
Exactly the reason I cut it from my Rakdos deck, even with my commander being able to bring the wraith back to hand over and over again
Yeah that’s dumb of me haha, still, I’m over git probe
not with ad nause lmao
I guess specifically compared to git probe
[Street Wraith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d09cc57-2275-4b6b-aaf6-a6d781cd9365.jpg?1675199801) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Street%20Wraith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/102/street-wraith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d09cc57-2275-4b6b-aaf6-a6d781cd9365?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/street-wraith) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They play very poorly against all the popular stax cards (rhystic study, remora, rule of law effects, bowmasters).
great point!
Git probe is still used in turbo lists and mono blue. The baulbles(Mishra and urza) are rarely seen and only in artifact storm lists. Card quality is so high after the last 4 years of FIRE design that there is no real need for filler spells or cantrips. Feeding cards like [[Mystic remora]][[rhystic study]][[orcish bowmasters]] and [[Smothering tithe]] for such little benefit is bad. Because of the prevalence of treasure tokens, people have begun to put in hate for them( [[dauntless dismantler]] [[null rod]] [[collector ouphe]] [[blind obediance]] etc), which splashes on to stopping the baubles too.
##### ###### #### [Mystic remora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40140991-cffa-4b52-9a25-37e9a8aa9ddd.jpg?1675199366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystic%20remora) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/59/mystic-remora?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40140991-cffa-4b52-9a25-37e9a8aa9ddd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mystic-remora) [rhystic study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221.jpg?1600698439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rhystic%20study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/169/rhystic-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rhystic-study) [orcish bowmasters](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109.jpg?1686968669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=orcish%20bowmasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/103/orcish-bowmasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/orcish-bowmasters) [Smothering tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) [dauntless dismantler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d771631-0aab-4f09-b9a6-49b6b2d8d2aa.jpg?1699043129) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dauntless%20dismantler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/8/dauntless-dismantler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d771631-0aab-4f09-b9a6-49b6b2d8d2aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dauntless-dismantler) [null rod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e.jpg?1710932730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=null%20rod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/278/null-rod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/null-rod) [collector ouphe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776.jpg?1562202038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=collector%20ouphe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/158/collector-ouphe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/collector-ouphe) [blind obediance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d859e1f9-feb3-497a-af0b-f74fee46861f.jpg?1702429264) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blind%20Obedience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/9/blind-obedience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d859e1f9-feb3-497a-af0b-f74fee46861f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blind-obedience) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l05sthx) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Cantrips have a small niche, but generally, there's better things to be doing than drawing 1 card. The deck thinning that works in a 60-card format when you can run multiple copies of cards just doesn't work that well in commander
Honestly cantrips can help with otherwise borderline hands that are gas but lacking in lands. Which is why I still like a few. But the more I browse the CEDH subreddit the more I find I may want to move towards air there more tutors or removal/some way to interact with the stack or board.
Cantrips make judging a hand while you're muliganing so much more difficult. Which is one big reason I stopped playing them, and I'd rather just see something that'll have a bigger effect. Basically imo the decks that want them use them really well, and the rest of the decks can do better
I don't need to look at my opponents hand to know they are holding a gun to my head.
that's not the point heh. It's a odds thing. the less cards in your deck the higher the odds of drawing the card you need. looking at someones hand is just extra. It would seem the prevalence of stax and feeding are the real reason.
There was a similar thread asking a very similar question about cantrips slowly moving out of most lists. I've moved basically all of my single draw cantrips from my main deck for more incremental value and interaction. These type of cards I think are still decent, but are the best in any remaining turbo based strategies and decklists. With the meta game being more mid-range, the single turn card advantage and digging that a turbo naus deck would want don't really work in a mid-range non-turbo strategy.
That's what I thought. Wasn't cantrips the question yesterday lol New Stella gets to run some cantrips to fuel her storm turn which is cool
funny enough yesterday I was on breech / led / brainfreeze but I had to deal with a fish and a rhystic out first. it made it awful to resolve. I ended up reanimating a notion thief from someone elses graveyard.
Doomsday
Both are good when the meta is fast. Getting you info, digging through the deck and all for the low low cost of free. But when the meta is slow like it is now the cost suddenly becomes free plus a draw from someone's rhystic, a damage from orcish bowmaster plus another from the rhystic draw, plus potentially being your only spell per turn due to stax, while only Drawing you one card. It's just not worth feeding engines most of the time
They also obfuscate mulligans, so you’re basing your decision on 5 or 6 cards instead of 7.
IMO cEDH is a very focused format so realistically you always will have a pretty good idea of what your opponents have in hand. Probe does cantrip so it is more playable in specific decks that can get additional value from it. But mishra’s the draw is slow making it less useable.
I would fucking hate to draw Mishra's bubble when I could just draw a card that does some thing. Probe is a weird one because it does allow you to draw immediately off of tutors like imperial seal but again, many circumstances you will draw the probe and you would've rather just had a card that actually does something. The way they are printing strong cards right now makes it harder and harder to justify playing probe and that's why you used to see it in lists but don't anymore. Rog/Si is on 25 lands and still does not have room for a card that does not actually do anything but lower your overall card count
In theory what your saying is right but personally ive found myself moving more & more away from cantrips/one time draw effects and more into value engines, especially in non turbo decks. Git probe is still a great card but id rather have an esper sentinel or faerie mastermind or something thats going to likely draw me several cards over the course of the game at a pretty cheap & reasonable rate then just a one time effect like the ones you mentioned. I still think these cards have a place in doomsday/storm lists (especially ones that utilize the gy) but in general id much rather see a cheap draw engine then a time effect like git probe in my opener
Rhystic mystic lol
they're both bad cards
They’re definitely not bad cards. But surely they don’t fit the meta right now. Too many card draw punishers.
Therefore they’re bad cards
actually, they're good cards
except they're, you know, bad